Will there be Timewarp-love atlast ? [Archive]

View Full Version : Will there be Timewarp-love atlast ?

Verrie77

09-20-2010, 06:32 AM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite>Hey guys, long time no see! We got some good feedback at Fan Faire which I wanted to share.<div> </div> <div>I agree that Time Warp ended up being more annoying than it is fun or rewarding. Unfortunately, it was one of those things that looked okay on paper but didn't work in practice. We have it changed internally so that there is no longer an immunity timer associated with the spell, and it now grants the Illusionist the buff as well as the target. This should be coming to the test servers with (or before) GU58. If you want, you can just macro the spell to a group member and spam it as a self-buff, but I envision some players being more tactical with it. You can even spam it on yourself, but you don't get double benefit - unless, of course, you cast it on your pet. We also changed the icon so that the warning icon looks different than the actual buff, and the buff now looks like the Tsunami (Monk ability) icon, so that it shouldn't be shared with any other mage abilities.</div> <div> </div> <div>Some of your other issues, such as buffs providing no benefit due to being capped, will be addressed with the upcoming expansion. There are some other changes that we hope to make before the expansion, but I can't promise anything yet.</div><div></div>Any further contructive feedback would be appreciated.

Amphimedon

09-20-2010, 09:04 AM

I have no clue why you guys keep focusing on TW <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /> ... I have no clue why you even bother because any change to TW is not going to fix the illy class ...

Sykosys

09-20-2010, 04:22 PM

Heh, Dont get me started.

snowli

09-20-2010, 09:54 PM

Besides this is the WRONG change to timewarp.<ol><li>Illy's have little in the way of spike damage to take advantage of personal TW everytime.</li><li>Prismatic chaos doesn't get more triggers properly for example.</li><li>It still doesn't solve the big admin problems of when the wizzy has ice comet or w/ever up he wants TW, then when the conjy has Elemental Blast ready they want TW on their pet, when the warlock has w/ever rift? ready they want it etc etc - It's still a big admin disaster and crucially, NO FUN!!</li><li>TW is a really small boost in actual use, all wizard spell double attacks might amount to for example 2% of their parse, and that is including all adorned spell doubles, time compression always on 5% spell doubles, mythical spell doubles 10% always on etc? so TW is contributing a small portion of 2%.</li><li> Timewarp probably actually lowers dps, due to many people holding abilities back for these tiny 5second windows that are mostly wasted/stunned/stifled/kb'ed/spike abilities missed/server lagged/ported/too busy to use/not noticed.</li></ol>groupwide TW is the minimum change that sensible, I think raidwide is justified by how little TW really does in practise. Even with raidwide TW would be nowhere near as good a SF ability as Victorious Concerto, or Stampede for example.

Showoff

09-21-2010, 04:28 AM

<cite>snowline wrote:</cite><blockquote>Besides this is the WRONG change to timewarp.<ol><li>Illy's have little in the way of spike damage to take advantage of personal TW everytime.</li><li>Prismatic chaos doesn't get more triggers properly for example.</li><li>It still doesn't solve the big admin problems of when the wizzy has ice comet or w/ever up he wants TW, then when the conjy has Elemental Blast ready they want TW on their pet, when the warlock has w/ever rift? ready they want it etc etc - It's still a big admin disaster and crucially, NO FUN!!</li><li>TW is a really small boost in actual use, all wizard spell double attacks might amount to for example 2% of their parse, and that is including all adorned spell doubles, time compression always on 5% spell doubles, mythical spell doubles 10% always on etc? so TW is contributing a small portion of 2%.</li><li> Timewarp probably actually lowers dps, due to many people holding abilities back for these tiny 5second windows that are mostly wasted/stunned/stifled/kb'ed/spike abilities missed/server lagged/ported/too busy to use/not noticed.</li></ol>groupwide TW is the minimum change that sensible, I think raidwide is justified by how little TW really does in practise. Even with raidwide TW would be nowhere near as good a SF ability as Victorious Concerto, or Stampede for example.</blockquote>While I'll agree this is the wrong change to time warp, some of this is incorrect. TW does effect prismatic chaos it adds three triggers to it. Prismatic chaos is not a direct damage spell, these apply timewarp at the end of the spell, when it hits. Prismatic applies at the beginning spell. So for example as long as you initiate prismatic chaos when you have time warp it will grant three additional triggers, even if time warp wears out while you are still in mid cast. But if you cast prismatic chaos and timewarp activates after you have initially casted, it will not apply.Wizards spell DA also contributes far more than 2% to their total dps. Most wizards will net closer to 10% from spell da and thats on the conservative side. The amount from time warp is obviously much less.

andreas2901

09-21-2010, 08:50 PM

70% of the time some PC changes are being wasted cause of slacking, dying, whatever reason. Giving it additional 3 triggers, sadly is just a waste

Terrius

09-21-2010, 11:34 PM

I'm glad timewarp got fixed but wish some time would be spent fixing the huge DPS gap between illies and everyone else. Seems broken when a healer can out DPS a mage, or even bards who bring more utility...

snowli

09-22-2010, 12:18 PM

<cite>Showoff@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>snowline wrote:</cite><blockquote>Besides this is the WRONG change to timewarp.<ol><li>Illy's have little in the way of spike damage to take advantage of personal TW everytime.</li><li>Prismatic chaos doesn't get more triggers properly for example.</li><li>It still doesn't solve the big admin problems of when the wizzy has ice comet or w/ever up he wants TW, then when the conjy has Elemental Blast ready they want TW on their pet, when the warlock has w/ever rift? ready they want it etc etc - It's still a big admin disaster and crucially, NO FUN!!</li><li>TW is a really small boost in actual use, all wizard spell double attacks might amount to for example 2% of their parse, and that is including all adorned spell doubles, time compression always on 5% spell doubles, mythical spell doubles 10% always on etc? so TW is contributing a small portion of 2%.</li><li> Timewarp probably actually lowers dps, due to many people holding abilities back for these tiny 5second windows that are mostly wasted/stunned/stifled/kb'ed/spike abilities missed/server lagged/ported/too busy to use/not noticed.</li></ol>groupwide TW is the minimum change that sensible, I think raidwide is justified by how little TW really does in practise. Even with raidwide TW would be nowhere near as good a SF ability as Victorious Concerto, or Stampede for example.</blockquote>While I'll agree this is the wrong change to time warp, some of this is incorrect. TW does effect prismatic chaos it adds three triggers to it. Prismatic chaos is not a direct damage spell, these apply timewarp at the end of the spell, when it hits. Prismatic applies at the beginning spell. So for example as long as you initiate prismatic chaos when you have time warp it will grant three additional triggers, even if time warp wears out while you are still in mid cast. But if you cast prismatic chaos and timewarp activates after you have initially casted, it will not apply.Wizards spell DA also contributes far more than 2% to their total dps. Most wizards will net closer to 10% from spell da and thats on the conservative side. The amount from time warp is obviously much less.</blockquote>Perhaps I should have been more specific about PC not helping illies, especially in raid.Red adorn for Prismatic chaos is 2 extra triggers.PC can contribute 4 times as much dps to a raiding illy as any other single ability.For the purposes of a raiding illy, PC is our spike dps spell.Timewarped raider PC doesn't double to 10 triggers, it still only gets 3 more.Many PC triggers can be wasted anyway, due to very short duration, swing speeds, death, jousting out, kb, stun, daze, charm etc etc so it's very hard for illy's to make use of the illy +1 other proposed (bad) TW change. Extra triggers aren't nearly as good for illy's 'PC on one person' as for a coercer's 'extra triggers on mob'.A significant amount of a raiding wizard's dps is procs/temp buffs which won't double spell attack, 2-3% of dps coming from total spell doubles is what act typically parses from our raid wizards, only a part of that 2-3% will come from TW.

Showoff

09-23-2010, 02:59 AM

<cite>snowline wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Showoff@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>snowline wrote:</cite><blockquote>Besides this is the WRONG change to timewarp.<ol><li>Illy's have little in the way of spike damage to take advantage of personal TW everytime.</li><li>Prismatic chaos doesn't get more triggers properly for example.</li><li>It still doesn't solve the big admin problems of when the wizzy has ice comet or w/ever up he wants TW, then when the conjy has Elemental Blast ready they want TW on their pet, when the warlock has w/ever rift? ready they want it etc etc - It's still a big admin disaster and crucially, NO FUN!!</li><li>TW is a really small boost in actual use, all wizard spell double attacks might amount to for example 2% of their parse, and that is including all adorned spell doubles, time compression always on 5% spell doubles, mythical spell doubles 10% always on etc? so TW is contributing a small portion of 2%.</li><li> Timewarp probably actually lowers dps, due to many people holding abilities back for these tiny 5second windows that are mostly wasted/stunned/stifled/kb'ed/spike abilities missed/server lagged/ported/too busy to use/not noticed.</li></ol>groupwide TW is the minimum change that sensible, I think raidwide is justified by how little TW really does in practise. Even with raidwide TW would be nowhere near as good a SF ability as Victorious Concerto, or Stampede for example.</blockquote>While I'll agree this is the wrong change to time warp, some of this is incorrect. TW does effect prismatic chaos it adds three triggers to it. Prismatic chaos is not a direct damage spell, these apply timewarp at the end of the spell, when it hits. Prismatic applies at the beginning spell. So for example as long as you initiate prismatic chaos when you have time warp it will grant three additional triggers, even if time warp wears out while you are still in mid cast. But if you cast prismatic chaos and timewarp activates after you have initially casted, it will not apply.Wizards spell DA also contributes far more than 2% to their total dps. Most wizards will net closer to 10% from spell da and thats on the conservative side. The amount from time warp is obviously much less.</blockquote>Perhaps I should have been more specific about PC not helping illies, especially in raid.Red adorn for Prismatic chaos is 2 extra triggers.PC can contribute 4 times as much dps to a raiding illy as any other single ability.For the purposes of a raiding illy, PC is our spike dps spell.Timewarped raider PC doesn't double to 10 triggers, it still only gets 3 more.Many PC triggers can be wasted anyway, due to very short duration, swing speeds, death, jousting out, kb, stun, daze, charm etc etc so it's very hard for illy's to make use of the illy +1 other proposed (bad) TW change. Extra triggers aren't nearly as good for illy's 'PC on one person' as for a coercer's 'extra triggers on mob'.A significant amount of a raiding wizard's dps is procs/temp buffs which won't double spell attack, 2-3% of dps coming from total spell doubles is what act typically parses from our raid wizards, only a part of that 2-3% will come from TW.</blockquote>4 times any other dps is a bit of a stretch. Ultraviolet beam can peak around 5k dps and with prismatic at like 13k if you precast on multiple targets. Prismatic chaos is just like any other trigger/reactive spell. If you want this to 'double' by giving it a total of ten triggers, all other reactives/trigger spells should be expected to do the same. That would be unrealistic and unbalanced.PC triggers can be wasted for sure, but most scout classes excluding bards will proc all 8 triggers pretty easy, on joust fight or encounter where scouts are unavailable for whatever reason the tank should get all of them if youre using multiple targets instead of reapplying it to the same person in those cases. I would without a doubt agree this should be changed to trigger off the mob though, but exaggerating the poor aspects of the illy class is not going to help get productive changes.If you right click the wizard in act and select 'get special attacks report' it will show you the total damage from spell double attacks. This does not include extra reactives such as their ice shield ability. A significant amount of their damage is from raid procs. I only have end game raid data to go off of, our wizard usually gets about 8% total spell dps from spell double attacks, however he gets a lot more damage from raid/group procs that guilds putting out lower total dps would get. Which is why I assumed most wizards should be getting around 10% dps from spell double attacks. Either way it should be much higher than 2%.

snowli

09-23-2010, 06:35 AM

What I'm saying is it's hard for illy's to utilise TW the way other classes can, we don't have anything like fusion, and icecomet and elemental blast and those types of spike abilities. The closest thing we have to a spike ability is PC, which isn't suited to TW because it's a trigger count and only goes to 8, it doesn't double, and extra triggers don't necessarily get used because it's on 1 player not on the mob.Whether act is showing spell doubles are 3% of our wizard's dps and 8% of yours, it remains true that only a small portion of those spell doubles come from TW, and not from adorns, myth, buffs etc.I stand by my assertion that TW needs to go groupwide with no immunities, or raidwide with no immunities and perhaps a longer recast. Timewarp just isn't helping illy's or their groupmates anything like what other key SF abilities are doing like Victorious Concerto, Stampede, Elemental Blast or Elemental Toxicity and so on. What might look alright on paper doesn't work in practise because of the timewarp window being so small at 5 seconds, and other factors wasting so many of the windows. Also administrating single target Timewarp is a headache.

Rhadamanth

09-23-2010, 04:36 PM

Being a necro, I have to say TW does need to be fixed. There are few classes that actually benefit from this, mostly wizards and other spike damage dealers. So why should you guys have to rely on having a specific class in your group for one of your key abilities to function well? It should be advantageous to you as well. It sounds like lifeburn; we need a healer for it to actually do a decent amount of damage. I know TW is basically wasted on me because necros don't have any huge damage DD's, and it does not double the ticks like it says; it just doubles the initial hit which is almost completely worthless.

Showoff

09-23-2010, 09:51 PM

<cite>snowline wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I'm saying is it's hard for illy's to utilise TW the way other classes can, we don't have anything like fusion, and icecomet and elemental blast and those types of spike abilities.Timewarp just isn't helping illy's or their groupmates anything like what other key SF abilities are doing like Victorious Concerto, Stampede, Elemental Blast or Elemental Toxicity and so on. What might look alright on paper doesn't work in practise because of the timewarp window being so small at 5 seconds, and other factors wasting so many of the windows. Also administrating single target Timewarp is a headache.</blockquote>That I'll certainly agree with <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> This ability regardless of the change wont do much for our class because spell double attack in general doesnt do much for enchanters. The bottom line is you're right in the fact that the time warp change isn't going to do a whole lot for us, other than make it easier to use. It is however going to be noticably beneficial for wizards.I don't think making this group wide or raid wide would salvage it either. Raidwide would be kind of silly and hard to balance appropriately. Regardless of that, like illusionists, most class will not benefit much from this buff anyways. Same goes for group wide. Group time warp would be much easier to cast, benefit multiple mages and cause the overall dps gained from this ability to increase... but it's still to situational with the 5 second window.My current stance is I'd rather see the whole ability scraped and simply given a group buff for static spell double attack or something more solid. We have more than enough temp buffs as is anyways.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

snowli

09-23-2010, 10:47 PM

<cite>Showoff@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>snowline wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I'm saying is it's hard for illy's to utilise TW the way other classes can, we don't have anything like fusion, and icecomet and elemental blast and those types of spike abilities.Timewarp just isn't helping illy's or their groupmates anything like what other key SF abilities are doing like Victorious Concerto, Stampede, Elemental Blast or Elemental Toxicity and so on. What might look alright on paper doesn't work in practise because of the timewarp window being so small at 5 seconds, and other factors wasting so many of the windows. Also administrating single target Timewarp is a headache.</blockquote>That I'll certainly agree with <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> This ability regardless of the change wont do much for our class because spell double attack in general doesnt do much for enchanters. The bottom line is you're right in the fact that the time warp change isn't going to do a whole lot for us, other than make it easier to use. It is however going to be noticably beneficial for wizards.I don't think making this group wide or raid wide would salvage it either. Raidwide would be kind of silly and hard to balance appropriately. Regardless of that, like illusionists, most class will not benefit much from this buff anyways. Same goes for group wide. Group time warp would be much easier to cast, benefit multiple mages and cause the overall dps gained from this ability to increase... but it's still to situational with the 5 second window.My current stance is I'd rather see the whole ability scraped and simply given a group buff for static spell double attack or something more solid. We have more than enough temp buffs as is anyways.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I can certainly see the attraction of a 'until cancelled' group buff granting a chance for spell double attacks. I wonder if the devs are ready to completely abandon the timewarp premise though.It would be much 'fairer' if spell doubles worked more equally with different classes staple damage types, e.g. DD versus dots versus triggers give very different mileage from spell double.

LivelyHound

09-24-2010, 10:12 AM

Just to quickly respond on Timewarp. My personal opinion on this spell is that its our best option to repair this class. It should in my opinion be use to change the one thing we all want most. The reason being everybody agrees that it was an attempt by soe that didnt work out as expected. It "looked okay on paper but didn't work in practice". Thus it is under scrutiny and liable to be changed, but into what should be up to the community really. We have a chance for it to be a the ugly duckling that becomes a golden goose or some other mixed metaphor. So what are the main problems illies themselves have: 1. DPS. 2. Utility 3. Buff stripping. 4. Dead pet. The current proposed change to make it affect the illy does nothing for 1. It will have little positive effect on our dps as we have no burst dps, and low base spell dmg. In the main feedback thread I proposed a different way to change our burst dps via illusory allies which is as useless as timewarp, or by changing timewarp into an illusionist self buff. Changing it to a self buff would take it away from the original intention of additional utility and thus I think it is an unlikely change for the devs to implement. We could have it changed to help option 4 to prevent aoe to the pet etc... but the pet is of minimal impact and I personally would see that as a waste of an endgame enline ability. If anything changes to the pet should come from elsewhere. Changing 3 is not possible via another spell, which leaves just option 2, which is what timewarp was supposed to be. However the current utilty problems we have are being looked at, and to me the initial trial of that is the DA->Multi Attck change. If that works out well then I can see the future uncapping of other stats which makes all our utilty usefull again. Which is what I took Xelgad to mean when he said : "Some of your other issues, such as buffs providing no benefit due to being capped, will be addressed with the upcoming expansion. There are some other changes that we hope to make before the expansion, but I can't promise anything yet." Thus what are we left with in our utility that current doesn't work. The only thing left is our mana regen, which albeit fine for solo and heroic grouping, doesnt work well for cross group mana regen in raids. Thus for me the should scrap the current uselessness of this spell and make it one of two things. Either seriously beef up what it was currently supposed to be, or two make it an Other Group tagged, mana regen / mana consumption reducer type spell and in doing so fix one of the major gripes between coercers and illusionist balance. That would go a long way towards repairing this broken class. Our buffs are being looked at due to uncapping. Our pet has just been buffed with extra hp etc. Our main single target buffs (utility) is being fixed hopefully. IA for exmple we know with DA change will be most wanted again soon tm. Our dps is in the gutter, but timewarp is not the place for it to be fixed. More spell dbl attk for this class does little to help unless its permanent spell dbl attk. That leaves mana regen. My thoughts on timewarp thus are (from the feedback thread) : I would say have an endline aa ability that takes 10% of casting spd greater than 100% and make it spell double attack as casting speed has always been the illy flavour. I would make timewarp into something like that. Change Timewarp to a passive illy buff that takes does: +Spell Dbl AttK = (Cast Haste - 100) / 10. This gives illies incentives on gearing and it gives us incentives to utilise the AGI line to the max. Possibly change it into an effect that makes mana consumption go down because the other group is out of the normal timestream where magic happens. Something along the lines of your target group is pushed out of phase with normal time so that half the time they dont exist in the norrathian universe. The effect being a 20sec 50% mana reducer, 2min recast, tagged other group. Or alternatively you place a group of norrathians into a state of being that accelerates their metabolisms. The effect being 20 secs of 200% mana regen and heath regen, tagged Other Group, 2min recast. This effect would have to be able to go over normal regen caps, and effects any regens that are running on them, like sigil of heroism for paladin hate. Thus stacking bard mana songs and this effect would be beneficial for example. Something that keeps the idea of a timewarping effect but becomes useful.I'm sure there are other ways we could go but there is an opportunity with this aa ability to really do the class some good that we, as what little remains of a community, should not squander.

Zivgar

09-24-2010, 02:36 PM

I don't know how some one could say that spell double attack does allmost nothing for an Illusionist. It like cast 2 spells for the price of one. If you have a 5 sec fight Time Warp on yourself would double your DPS. Of course fights are longer than 5 seconds. Enchanter are never gonna get the spike damage like wizards, but time warp still helps. I use time warp when I got my master strike up and I can do 40k+ damage with that and I'm not raid geared.I like these new changes to time warp, but this is not the fix to our dps issues. A good suggestion I heard to help out Time Warp would be to make it last 30 seconds instead of 5 seconds and give it three triggers. Just an idea I still like the 5 second window, but the other way would help other classes more, which really in the end Time Warp is to help us buff other classes and not ourselves. With that said it needs to help out DoT classes just as much as DD classes. Maybe make the DoT into instance damage (with the spell DA).For example a DoT that does 2000 damage every 4 seconds over 12 seconds when effected by time warp would do around 6000 + 6000 (from spell DA). Just a thought.

Showoff

09-24-2010, 10:07 PM

Zivgar

09-25-2010, 12:03 PM

If I did 40k damage in 5 seconds with 20k of that from spell DA that would be 4000 dps from spell DA. How did you get 300 dps? But of course we can't have time warp on us all the time, but in that 5 second window TW doubles your dps. I still don't see how that is worthless.

Showoff

09-25-2010, 01:55 PM

No it wouldn't, its not as simple as doubling your dps. Spell double attacks will hit lower than the initial spell attack. They also do not completely 'double' as you only get the intial damage of the spell and not 'double' ticks of the spell. Theyre not effected by damage mod which is a pretty big hit for us as well, etc.For example I looked at my da's from a Wyrmlord Zaos fight where I had time warped myself real quick. In that fight Bewilderment hit twice for 32k, it doubled under timewarp one additional time and hit for 18k. The intial tick on brainburst hit four times ranging from 12k-14k, it doubled once for 3.3k.And I didn't mean 40k in 5 seconds. I meant 40k damage over all. Again this does not include additional prismatci triggers which are by far the most beneficial aspect of the ability. I wouldn't miss time warp at all, one more tick to prismatic adornment(the coercers have three ticks to hostage from their red adorn while we only get two to prismatic) would make up for lack of it on our part. Spell double attack simply is not a big deal for an enchanter class.It is however, beneficial to classes with big nukes. For example a wizards ice comment doubling for 180k... That one spell will net more damage than timewarp on us twice over.

LivelyHound

09-25-2010, 06:13 PM

<cite>Zivgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know how some one could say that spell double attack does allmost nothing for an Illusionist. It like cast 2 spells for the price of one. If you have a 5 sec fight Time Warp on yourself would double your DPS. Of course fights are longer than 5 seconds. Enchanter are never gonna get the spike damage like wizards, but time warp still helps. I use time warp when I got my master strike up and I can do 40k+ damage with that and I'm not raid geared.</blockquote>Except in a 5 sec fight it be simpler not to cast it, cos you know you have to cast it wait through the wait time period and then cast your dmg.Realisitically depending on your reuse spd its up somewhere from 1 time a min to 1 time every 30 secs. For which you get 5 secs of bonus dps. 5/60 is a 12th, 5/30 is a 6th so you get on average your dps times a max of a 6th as bonus. On a 30K parse thats between 5K and 2.5K dps bonus at the very best with all the stars aligned. The trouble is you have to disrupt your casting order to do it as you have to wait on it for your big hitters to be up etc. and seeing as it only affects base PC triggers etc i doesnt affect your biggest hitter. You have to time it with others in the raid thus delaying your own big hits. THe whole dealing with who to place it on and so forth, complicating matters is a distraction to your personal dps and the list of problems goes on.I never said it didnt help, I just said "that spell double attack does allmost nothing for an Illusionist" which I stand by. In the big picture of a raid it helps raise an illusionist personal dps by maybe 5K max at end game, which on a raid doing multiple 100K's is negligible. It's so minisule as to be "allmost nothing".I still think that the whole spell needs reworking. It should be made into something much more useful. It is an endline ability ffs... it should be one of the buttons you press that makes people go "WOOT! I GOT TW!"/siderantHowever, much like our endame spell Doppelganger its more "Meh did you TW me like I asked?", or our ancient teaching Illusory Allies "You did what!!?! You numbskull never hit that button again!" or our other ancient teaching Spellshield "What you had a reflect on me this whole time? I never even knew!" or Channeled Focus "10min recast? [Removed for Content]!"How many other classes have such may specials that are just MEH.Not to mention grp mythy effect, IA, AoI, Split Personality, our Pet and so on... there are so many issues with this class at present that Timewarp could be used to redress the balance a little bit, but no they keep on tweaking it and it keeps on sucking./end siderant