Rock, Paper, Scissors? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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S_M_I_T_E

09-18-2010, 03:58 PM

Got some wizzy pvp-questions:I've re-read the sticky and gone to the fire site but I'm still not sure what's going on in some fights sometimes. Perhaps another more pvp-4-life wizzy might have insight?1) Rangers/Assassins: Some seem very "even" with my Wizzy 250/MC/Myth in the 80-89 BG (Pretty even pace of trading blows) --> No confusion here...2) Outlier Rangers: There are 2-4 I've run accross that can basically mow me down in what feels like less than 3-5s. I have no idea what is going on (poisons or something?). Is there some bow flurry that goes off that these rangers have that others don't? I mean if people didn't know about spell DA, someone could be all confused about being 1-shotted by a wizard on a Ice Comet every now and then...It's like I don't have 1500pts of ward proccing items and a 800+ pts magi's there at all when those rangers "open up" at a distance. I'm not talking about having a hard time killing them (resist jewelry many have) I'm talking about I can't cast 3 spells an I'm already down in a 1 v 1 like I have no armor or spells up at all. 3) Outlier Assassins: There's been a couple of 1 v 1's (no hidden healers here...) where an assassin is a) snare immune (even numbing cold it appears), stun immune, and stifle immune. They come in and I'm stunned the entire 4-6s (I pop a pot and am restunned/rooted/whatever) and I die while they circle around me. I have absolutely no control over my keyboard once these types of assassins have "come close" I can't move I can't cast, I can't do anything. What's going on? What combination of abilities, items, potions, racials, etc. are being used to this effectiveness? Is there a "magic" key sequence of immune to stun for 10s, followed by immune to stifle, followed by root or something that is going on that these player happen to save for execution vs a caster? I tried several approaches (stun first - they didn't get stunned or knocked back), (slow first - they weren't snared), etc.

S_M_I_T_E

09-18-2010, 04:01 PM

Title of the thread refers to the old days of Rock, paper, scissors being the comparison between casters vs tanks vs scouts and their respective advantages over others. I agree, I have yet to meet a solo tank to own me 1v1, same with healers. Other casters is pretty potato patato and scouts have a rainbow of threat depending on the particulars of the character in question...So is my above post just an observation of how it's supposed to be? See a scout in full glory and go hide behind your tank and stay away from them 1v1?

Azol

09-20-2010, 09:11 AM

Rangers: if one engages you from afar while snaring so you cannot close the distance fast enough, better look for cover to break line of sight. There are Nox cure pots and Freedom pots etc. Make Ranger come to you, do not try to catch him esp if you ran out of cure options.Assassins: they SEEM to be immune because after initial stun/stifle/root from Wizard they will gain corresponding PVP immunity for the 2*duration of your control ability. They can try to keep you chain-stuned/stifled/whatever because of lots of procs from items and those procs do not grant PVP immunity AFAIK. Maybe you can try to counter this condition with pre-casting your damage shield and MAYBE the Force Of Mind PVP adornment (do not throw the vegetables at me!) is a viable option as well (it can daze them), but, honestly, most wizards would prefer to use any other adorn in its place. Any ward proccing from melee damage can buy you more time vs a good average assassin as well.Best option here (in my opinion) is pre-casting stun immunity (use signets, for example). They should work fine in BGs, I believe.Another option - try opening with Aurora (again, no vegetables, please!) to burn their temp buffs/pre-casted immunities.

Jab

09-20-2010, 09:32 AM

About rangers and snares.Yesterday i was out pvping on my INQ with myth weapon and i couldent go forward or backwards due to ranger snares.It was a 1vs 1 mind u.Basicly the time it took to cure one fettering a new one was applied before my normal single target cure was up,fair enough i have two more cures.Boy oh boy was i in for a surprise.No matter how much i cured with 3 kinds of inante cure and with a pot i couldent get away or close the distance to the ranger.They simply have soo many snares that it is pointless to try and cure em.remember everytime u cure u cant do anything else and lets face it,rangers are not hitting u with pillows while u try to cure =)Just food for thought.3 kinds of cures + pot cure did nothing noticeable.So gl with ur one cure pot MR.wizard =)

S_M_I_T_E

09-20-2010, 06:12 PM

<cite>Azol@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rangers: if one engages you from afar while snaring so you cannot close the distance fast enough, better look for cover to break line of sight. 1. There are Nox cure pots and Freedom pots etc. Make Ranger come to you, do not try to catch him esp if you ran out of cure options.Assassins: they 2. SEEM to be immune because after initial stun/stifle/root from Wizard they will gain corresponding PVP immunity for the 2*duration of your control ability. They can try to keep you chain-stuned/stifled/whatever because of lots of procs from items and those procs do not grant PVP immunity AFAIK. Maybe you can try to counter this condition with pre-casting your damage shield and MAYBE the 3. Force Of Mind PVP adornment (do not throw the vegetables at me!) is a viable option as well (it can daze them), but, honestly, most wizards would prefer to use any other adorn in its place. Any 4. ward proccing from melee damage can buy you more time vs a good average assassin as well.Best option here (in my opinion) is 5. pre-casting stun immunity (use signets, for example). They should work fine in BGs, I believe.Another option - try 6. opening with Aurora (again, no vegetables, please!) to burn their temp buffs/pre-casted immunities.</blockquote>Thanks Azol that was helpful but could you clarify some points as outlined? 1) Oh yeah I have all 4 pot types as well as the freedom of movement and mind pots - never run out I have my own 90 alch.2) What is this PvP immunity you talk about? You are saying I can't cast magma chamber and hose them for 6 full seconds and snare them and stun them with tempest without 2 second mechanic repreives but their gear procs will lock me down?3) Is that available for 80-89 gear on PvE BG yet? Not trying to be funny but I think it's a 90 only.4) Lol tx for the pointer but I've got that one covered, I have a damage ward proccing item much better than the fabled belt BG merchant has as it isn't limited to every 15s or whatever - I loathe to mention it as I'm the only one I've seen wearing it and don't really wanna tag my name out on the forums (or get it nerfed lol) and it's hilarious when I have 4 non-T1 melee autoattacking me and they keep warding me at a near infinte cycle. Usually there's some CA's interrupting me so it isn't a great position to be in but it's quite chucklable... They do kill me but really really slow if they're not T1 (dirge, tanks,healers, etc.) --> Gear wise honestly all I could wish better for (effect wise) is get a fear cloak from thule, a Nizara orb (had one back in the day but sold it...), and some specific raid gear in PvE like the heat debuff wraps from TOMC, and maybe some of those range increasing jewelry/charms. Dunno if I really wanna switch from Ro just for BG though.. When I step up from MC to the fabled cloth I'll be sure to give some feedback if I feel godly..5) Signets, ok I overlooked those.6) That's a great idea, I didn't realize how many tricked players not only have trick gear but honed temp strategies I can throw a wrench at if I burn their time up...BTW - alot of my confusion has dimished on strats from your posts but I only think it fair and clear to point out that I did some inspecting this weekend and some of the most uber scouts are sporting 80 RAID PvP sets. I don't know how awesome those effects are for them but if I understand how badddd Hippo's are I assume the ranger and assassin ones are equally tuned. Matter of fact all instances of "I've been owned" and I didn't have a chance was against PvP RAID geared T1.

S_M_I_T_E

09-20-2010, 06:13 PM

<cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>So gl with ur one cure pot MR.wizard =)</blockquote>Yeah I felt the same way but thinking a little harder, it's the Nagafen PvP raid scouts hosing me like I'm in island gear. It's not the snares or stifles, it's that plus the rate of death...

S_M_I_T_E

09-20-2010, 07:54 PM

<cite>Azol@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rangers: ...</blockquote>I also forgot to ask...I notice if I send Protoinferno out to a ranger they try and run from it like they would a necro or conj main pet. Does our Protoinferno mess up their (must be >10m to use a CA)?Also, on the same line of thought, swarm pets from necro/conj are a potion / cure to remove and not actual physical entities that can be harmed by an aoe like firestorm correct?

Jab

09-21-2010, 09:22 AM

<cite>S_M_I_T_E wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>So gl with ur one cure pot MR.wizard =)</blockquote>Yeah I felt the same way but thinking a little harder, it's the Nagafen PvP raid scouts hosing me like I'm in island gear. It's not the snares or stifles, it's that plus the rate of death...</blockquote>=)Some of our better equipped wizards on nagafen can take a serious serious beating by scouts.U just need to gear up and have the right defensive spec before u can start to compete against them.The stifle-stun will always be a tough call.Atm we have one potion that cures and gives immunity,but sadly that one pot is on a ridicoules long recast timer so it is not something u can depend on.I guess the best advice is to stack up on signets aswell besides freedom pots.Gl and remeber there is light at the end of the tunnel once u get the right gear-spec-adornments etc.Last thing.Ppl on nagafen spent alot of time building their toons for pvp.I mean ALOT of time so u have to do the same =)

S_M_I_T_E

09-21-2010, 12:40 PM

<cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some of our better equipped wizards on nagafen can take a serious serious beating by scouts.U just need to gear up and have the right defensive spec before u can start to compete against them.Ppl on nagafen spent alot of time building their toons for pvp.I mean ALOT of time so u have to do the same =)</blockquote>: ) I couldn't agree more -But, I can't buy wizzy PvP RAID gear set on a PvE server even for a 1000 tokens a slot-I have 250, I've spent them max defensive as I can (more defensive than the wizzy who was at the source of the BG vs PVP gear whine thread, as I looked his points up)-I'm running around in MC toughness Cloth for BG, but the rate of death won't change that much when I get the "little bit more" toughness from the BG fabled set - I've done the math, it just won't matter -Basically for me (or anyone like me) to toe to toe with a PvP RAID Ranger (DPS machine) I need that 1500+ pt ward Heroic X and 15s reuse reduction on Ice Comet ... In addition to a little more toughness from a fabled set - On PvE I cannot obtain them.. Zero chance..I do have a really cool ward that is similar size to the fabled belt 400pt in BG (i have aslo) that procs a flat percent without a max every 15s when damage taken which is pretty slick but without that 1500 pt ward, and heroic X and some more output - Of course I'm rollin in 800pt ward from Espelled vultak eye as well.Minus the PvP RAID ward and extra total toughness I'm more defensive and "more warded" than our most famous unkillable wizzy in 80-90!If I were given options to get PvP Raid Cloth, and I chose to keep my defensive AA spec and my "special" extra ward item I'd be even slightly more unkillable than papa H.But on a positive note, I've met less than 3 scouts who fell into the "omg nerf them" category, so all in all things are well in my BG experiences...

Azol

09-24-2010, 11:21 AM

<cite>S_M_I_T_E wrote:</cite><blockquote>2) What is this PvP immunity you talk about? You are saying I can't cast magma chamber and hose them for 6 full seconds and snare them and stun them with tempest without 2 second mechanic repreives but their gear procs will lock me down?Immunity for control effects so you cannot (for example) immediately re-stun or re-root someone if he/she was recently stunned or rooted (by anyone). Tempest does knockbacks, not stuns. Knockbacks have no PVP immunity attached, by the way. So you can use the Chamber/Velious/Tempest combo all right. But remember, there are lots of procs granting cures/immunities for control effects such as stuns, roots, snares etc.And yeah, control procs from gear do not have PVP immunity as well - so if the stun, for example, has resulted from a proc, not from CA or spell/ability, then the player affected does not get any stun immunity.3) Is that available for 80-89 gear on PvE BG yet? Not trying to be funny but I think it's a 90 only.The PVP Force Of Mind adorn? 80-89 answer is No. For 90, Yes, on the BG token vendors.6) That's a great idea, I didn't realize how many tricked players not only have trick gear but honed temp strategies I can throw a wrench at if I burn their time up...Most Wizards believe it (Aurora) to be the single most useless spell in the whole game. More power to them.BTW - alot of my confusion has dimished on strats from your posts but I only think it fair and clear to point out that I did some inspecting this weekend and some of the most uber scouts are sporting 80 RAID PvP sets.What's a "80 RAID PVP set"? You mean T8 PVP Fabled set, correct? Well, for 80-89 it's not a bad option until you accumulate some tokens to start getting toughness pieces, as T8 PVP Fabled set was the only one to get toughness kind of "automatically" when SF went live.</blockquote>My answers are in bold.P.S. About Protoferno - I rarely use it in PVP except when fighting vs another mage. Protoferno has two abilities, one of which is a small taunt (called Theorem, as I believe), but I do not have any idea if it has any effect in PVP or not. Should try it out one day!

S_M_I_T_E

09-24-2010, 03:59 PM

<cite>Azol@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>P.S. About Protoferno - I rarely use it in PVP except when fighting vs another mage. Protoferno has two abilities, one of which is a small taunt (called Theorem, as I believe), but I do not have any idea if it has any effect in PVP or not. Should try it out one day!</blockquote>The reason I thought about using Protoinferno was that I was 1v1ing a necro who slapped a Tank pet on me and it jacked me up (not -HPs, but in actions/time) where I couldn't target it's master worth anything and I had no idea where his master was before I had to focus my attention on his pet...I've been using Protoinferno alot lately on pulls, especially with rangers - it has helped me immensely, I didn't know (but it makes sense) that it has a taunt effect. It's been giving me 3-4s of "alone" time to debuff them and get some spells off before they "know" where I'm at...It also seems to stick to them like glue which helps me "see" them alot better in real time or at least which way they went when they stealth/attack.

Jab

09-26-2010, 06:43 PM

<cite>S_M_I_T_E wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some of our better equipped wizards on nagafen can take a serious serious beating by scouts.U just need to gear up and have the right defensive spec before u can start to compete against them.Ppl on nagafen spent alot of time building their toons for pvp.I mean ALOT of time so u have to do the same =)</blockquote>: ) I couldn't agree more -But, I can't buy wizzy PvP RAID gear set on a PvE server even for a 1000 tokens a slot-I have 250, I've spent them max defensive as I can (more defensive than the wizzy who was at the source of the BG vs PVP gear whine thread, as I looked his points up)-I'm running around in MC toughness Cloth for BG, but the rate of death won't change that much when I get the "little bit more" toughness from the BG fabled set - I've done the math, it just won't matter -Basically for me (or anyone like me) to toe to toe with a PvP RAID Ranger (DPS machine) I need that 1500+ pt ward Heroic X and 15s reuse reduction on Ice Comet ... In addition to a little more toughness from a fabled set - On PvE I cannot obtain them.. Zero chance..I do have a really cool ward that is similar size to the fabled belt 400pt in BG (i have aslo) that procs a flat percent without a max every 15s when damage taken which is pretty slick but without that 1500 pt ward, and heroic X and some more output - Of course I'm rollin in 800pt ward from Espelled vultak eye as well.Minus the PvP RAID ward and extra total toughness I'm more defensive and "more warded" than our most famous unkillable wizzy in 80-90!If I were given options to get PvP Raid Cloth, and I chose to keep my defensive AA spec and my "special" extra ward item I'd be even slightly more unkillable than papa H.But on a positive note, I've met less than 3 scouts who fell into the "omg nerf them" category, so all in all things are well in my BG experiences...</blockquote>Sounds good that ur progressing in gear and mechanics understanding.About rangers there is not much to do.They will always have the upperhand due to their range and snares.Sure every now and again u can get/catch one off guard and inflict some possible payback.But the good rangers/scouts will usually see u first,and especially rangers will attack u first due to their range adv as mentioned above.With that being said u can read the following and see if it helps. I dunno how well rounded u are in eq2 pvp so the following is pretty basic stuff.You can " must" use clickies in order to get on a somewhat even playingfield vs some classes.Im talking potions/signets/tinker items.U get em from pvp merchant and from city merchants,you need to be in a high lvl guild or be trustee in one in order to have acces to all signet versions from the city merchant.Tinker items u need to craft =)There are some cooldowns that intefere with eachother on signets and pots and also some have a long recast so u want to be sure ur not using/wasting them unnecessarily =)

S_M_I_T_E

09-29-2010, 01:42 PM

<cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can " must" use clickies in order to get on a somewhat even playingfield vs some classes...</blockquote>My Current Clickies:Potions (4 type for cures Arcane, Trauma, Poison, Elemental)Potion of Freedom of Movement, Potion of Freedom of MindTotem of Sabertooth, Elixier of Deftness (gotta get that 51 agility up! gives me 49.9% Avoid to match that 72% Mit)Clickies I should want?1) Overclocked Manastone?2) ?????3) ?????.....Clickies I wished Existed: (Do they?)1) Inquisitor Myth Cure / 15s2) Immune Stun 10s3) Immune Stifle 10s4) Immune Knockback 10s5) 5 Stoneskins - 20s6) Immune Snare

Jab

10-04-2010, 08:18 AM

<cite>S_M_I_T_E wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jabib@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can " must" use clickies in order to get on a somewhat even playingfield vs some classes...</blockquote>My Current Clickies:Potions (4 type for cures Arcane, Trauma, Poison, Elemental)Potion of Freedom of Movement, Potion of Freedom of MindTotem of Sabertooth, Elixier of Deftness (gotta get that 51 agility up! gives me 49.9% Avoid to match that 72% Mit)Clickies I should want?1) Overclocked Manastone?2) ?????3) ?????.....Clickies I wished Existed: (Do they?)1) Inquisitor Myth Cure / 15s2) Immune Stun 10s3) Immune Stifle 10s4) Immune Knockback 10s5) 5 Stoneskins - 20s6) Immune Snare</blockquote>When i get home infront of my pc and logged into the game this wednesday i will add some more to ur list.