Plant, now more worthless in raids [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

WarmMachine

09-17-2010, 12:44 AM

So been testing plant, in raids. Works on nothing in the hole, not the adds on the first or second named. Works on trash but not the named in the Labs (did not test it on adds on Waansu). In palace does not work on the first two ring events, does works on the adds on twins but not the named, does not work on the barrior, works on the small adds at the start of Maalus but not the named, does not work on the sages, works on adds on Theer but not named. On Tox, works on the adds but not named, did not text Vuulan since I was on Tox, but most likely does not. Basically if it is small and trivial making who has agro not imporant plant will work, if it is improtant for a tank to hold agro it will not work. Atleast with the old spell could put up reinfocement and get 1 positional hate increase.

bishoph

09-17-2010, 01:07 AM

Plus non raid mobs, have been resisting it a lot too. I would not mind 1 out of 10, not being effected. Been seeing fights where eight mobs come in, hit plant and only two are on me.

Gungo

09-17-2010, 01:56 AM

This is the issue with all target locks they say thye are overpowered and then continue to give it out and make them unusable. The target lock needs to be removed and plant needs 1 position and triple the base threat maybe make it threat over time.

Croba

09-17-2010, 09:28 AM

I dont think they were aiming plant to be a raid item tbh. Gotta expect a few abilities to be the suck for raiding and others good.

Ocello

09-17-2010, 11:18 AM

Dont you guys love when ppl complain about getting their junk sucked?

Yimway

09-17-2010, 04:09 PM

Most of us stated plant changes were wrong when they were announced.Plant should be a +1 positional with a hate over time component, dump the buggy target lock.

Landiin

09-17-2010, 04:38 PM

I honestly haven't had many issue with the new plant. I cast it and the mobs pretty much turn to me and stay. If one happens to resist it I just switch to it and get it back. I have yet to have a blanket resist on it (heroic add/trash mobs). Would it be better +1 hate position and a good taunt over time? Yea but IMO its better then it was even though it don't trigger reinforcement.But then thats me, I am just one person I will default to the community on it.

aislynn00

09-18-2010, 06:36 AM

Change the ability entirely to this:Point Blank Blue AE5m AE range+1 Hate Position10 sec base duration+5,000 hate5000 Physical Mitigation ReductionYou know, to help guardians gain a little utility and indirect DPS.

Bruener

09-18-2010, 09:38 AM

Emlar_from_Halas

09-18-2010, 12:04 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Croba wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont think they were aiming plant to be a raid item tbh. Gotta expect a few abilities to be the suck for raiding and others good.</blockquote>Pretty sure this hits it on the head. It was a change for the heroic level, at which you will find it way more useful.</blockquote>That's the kind of quick, but wrong, conclusions we are used to get from you.New Aggresion AA line is targeting heroic/instance guardians.Plant change was not. It's a fix.The fact that some AA from the aggression line enhance Plant doesn't make it a CA usefull only for heroic guards.At Kos time, it used to be very usefull in Lyceum for example. I'm glad to be able to use it again in raid conditions, even if a lot of mobs will be immute to it.

Bruener

09-18-2010, 12:14 PM

<cite>Emlar@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Croba wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont think they were aiming plant to be a raid item tbh. Gotta expect a few abilities to be the suck for raiding and others good.</blockquote>Pretty sure this hits it on the head. It was a change for the heroic level, at which you will find it way more useful.</blockquote>That's the kind of quick, but wrong, conclusions we are used to get from you.New Aggresion AA line is targeting heroic/instance guardians.Plant change was not. It's a fix.The fact that some AA from the aggression line enhance Plant doesn't make it a CA usefull only for heroic guards.At Kos time, it used to be very usefull in Lyceum for example. I'm glad to be able to use it again in raid conditions, even if a lot of mobs will be immute to it.</blockquote>It is a change that is much more beneficial for heroic/instance tanking. That is obvious. I am not even sure what you are trying to argue, but like a couple others all that it really looks like is you immediately go to the defensive.Its not like it is completely useless in Raids. It still works on the heroic adds ni encounters that pop and need to be burned. But Epic encounters are going to be immune. Just like they are immune to everybody elses target locks and other CC abilities.Guards are not the only ones that have abilities more beneficial at different types of play afterall.

WarmMachine

09-18-2010, 01:49 PM

<cite>Croba wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont think they were aiming plant to be a raid item tbh. Gotta expect a few abilities to be the suck for raiding and others good.</blockquote> We have 3 blue ae abilities, they made 1 of them worthless in raids, that is 33% of our non-linked encounter abilities. This is the area that guardians are the weakest. So by your logic they should cripple abilities for heroic content? Since every guardian ability that works in a raid works in groups. I am not sure why but they have decided that guardians should be the best scrub tank for grouping and good at nothing else. Then people lining up and say what a great job it is. Even if you are planning on only heroic grouping with your guard never getting good gear or raiding, why do you want a class that has less potential than any other tank class.Guardians take more damage than other tanks, this has not changed. Guardians do less dps than other tanks, this has not changed. Guardians have the hardest time holding agro to multiple mob encounters, this has not changed. The guardian revamp was a complete joke.

Emlar_from_Halas

09-19-2010, 07:05 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is a change that is much more beneficial for heroic/instance tanking. That is obvious. I am not even sure what you are trying to argue, but like a couple others all that it really looks like is you immediately go to the defensive.</blockquote>Keep try guessing...You said "it was a change for the heroic level", now you say "That is obvious". But you have no facts to back up such a claim. Did Xelgad mention Plant change was targeting heroic content only ?Was there a patch note mentioning it ?Are Epics immune to Plant effect ?Did you even read Plant's description ?Or is this, again, another pure guess from your mighty Lordness ?Instead of taking care of things you might know about your class, you keep posting about guardian things you don't have a clue about.You have been doing this for years, and you are still surprised when one of us is telling you you're plain wrong.I'm not defensive. I'm accurate.If you can't make the difference... keep try guessing.

Bruener

09-19-2010, 02:43 PM

<cite>Emlar@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is a change that is much more beneficial for heroic/instance tanking. That is obvious. I am not even sure what you are trying to argue, but like a couple others all that it really looks like is you immediately go to the defensive.</blockquote>Keep try guessing...You said "it was a change for the heroic level", now you say "That is obvious". But you have no facts to back up such a claim. Did Xelgad mention Plant change was targeting heroic content only ?Was there a patch note mentioning it ?Are Epics immune to Plant effect ?Did you even read Plant's description ?Or is this, again, another pure guess from your mighty Lordness ?Instead of taking care of things you might know about your class, you keep posting about guardian things you don't have a clue about.You have been doing this for years, and you are still surprised when one of us is telling you you're plain wrong.I'm not defensive. I'm accurate.If you can't make the difference... keep try guessing.</blockquote>I know exactly what the spell does....here let me type it out for you.Plant V - Level 83Duration 6.0 seconds, Reuse 47.8 seconds with 25% reuse-Prevents targets in Area of Effect from changing targets.-Forces targets in Area of Effect to change their selected target to caster.-Increases Threat to targets in Area of Effect by 2,255Now AAs were also changed to increase the duration of Plant and increase the radius.This is what we call a "Target Lock". Epic mobs started becoming immune to target locks a long time ago, trust me a lot of classes have target locks. This ability becomes extremely useful in Heroic instance situations AND on non-epic raid trash (think of all those TSO mobs with heroic adds for example). That is what it is designed for. Give that ability to Crusaders and Zerkers and it is considered OP'd. Give it to Guards and they try and find a reason to complain about it.

Emlar_from_Halas

09-20-2010, 06:39 AM

Now that you read Plant definition, where do you see any limitation to Raid content ?I used Plant yesterday several times on Raid content in labo and palace, and guess what ? It works.Go back trolling your SK forum.

Iluvataris

09-20-2010, 11:00 AM

I would be happy with a +1 hate position and an amount of hate. At least it would be some use in raidIluvar (Nektulos)

aislynn00

09-20-2010, 11:35 AM

<cite>WarmMachine wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians take more damage than other tanks, this has not changed. Guardians do less dps than other tanks, this has not changed. Guardians have the hardest time holding agro to multiple mob encounters, this has not changed. The guardian revamp was a complete joke.</blockquote>And that's it in a nutshell: Guardians remain a pointless class.

aislynn00

09-20-2010, 11:38 AM

<cite>Fing@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would be happy with a +1 hate position and an amount of hate. At least it would be some use in raidIluvar (Nektulos)</blockquote>Look at Insolence (or Gibe, as some still refer to it), the equivalent berserker ability, when combined with the mytical focus effect. I would be happy with that.Oh, I know! We could swap our new Plant for Grave Sacrament, then Bruener could come back and tell us just how overpowered he feels!Yeah.

Iluvataris

09-20-2010, 11:50 AM

With a position change and hate it would still not be comparable to other fighter abilities but at least it would give some use is what I'm saying

aislynn00

09-20-2010, 11:54 AM

You know, one of the primary reasons why our class is downright execrable these days is because so many of you seem okay with getting a few scraps from the table of the real tanks. Why are we even considering +1 Hate Position instead of the force-target effect when SK's, berserkers, and paladins have infinitely better equivalent tools?We are supposed to be better than the other tanks in some regards, just as the other tanks are better than us in other regards. Being able to barely approach their capabilities in some regards while we remain utterly inferior in others doesn't work. And yet, here I see guardians buying into that very notion.What do you want guardians to be? The tank with the most survivability? The best single-target DPS plate tank? What? Make a decision, then push for it, and don't be humble and ask for pathically weak changes, like a single positional increase on a melee-range blue taunt.Currently, I don't see more than perhaps two guardians aside from myself who are actually willing to ask for big upgrades--you know, the kind of changes that might actually make guardians more desirable in the MT slot than paladins, berserkers, and shadowknights. Unless most of us start demanding something major, we aren't going to get it.You know what Xelgad's stance on this is? He believes we are now balanced. This directly from the man via private message to my wife, who wrote to him to complain about the sorry state of the class.And you guys are enabling his delusions!

Iluvataris

09-20-2010, 11:59 AM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why are we even considering +1 Hate Position instead of the force-target effect when SK's, berserkers, and paladins have infinitely better equivalent tools?</blockquote>You would prefer to stay with the force target? I'm sure you have tried it and already realise its limitations. Yeah, you're right I may be asking for too little though. I was under the impression that the changes made so far was just the first step

Twizty

09-20-2010, 03:34 PM

<table cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td align="left" valign="top"><a></a>aislynn00</td><td height="28" valign="top"><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td width="100%"> 9/20/2010 07:54:18 Subject: Re<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />lant, now more worthless in raids </td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"><hr /></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">You know what Xelgad's stance on this is? He believes we are now balanced. This directly from the man via private message to my wife, who wrote to him to complain about the sorry state of the class.And you guys are enabling his delusions!<hr /></td></tr></tbody></table>If the above statement is true, then we're pretty much screwed. I've played my guard since launch, through the good times and the bad and it's going to kill me to betray him to a berzerker but I think it's going to have to be done if this is the conclusion of the long awaited 'tank balance'. We are far from balanced, our dps is sub par, tps is a joke and even after the 'improvements' our utility is still the least desirable to bring along to a raid. It's a real pity Xelgad didn't listen to the more sensible ideas from the guardian community instead of letting trolls and fools keep our class well and truly at the bottom of the tank heap.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></td></tr></tbody></table>

WarmMachine

09-21-2010, 08:07 PM

<cite>Emlar@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now that you read Plant definition, where do you see any limitation to Raid content ?I used Plant yesterday several times on Raid content in labo and palace, and guess what ? It works.Go back trolling your SK forum.</blockquote>Umm no the spell does not work on most epic mobs. It does not say in the tool tip that raid mobs are imune, but they are. Shard of Hate is the first raid zone they started to make raid mobs imune to taunt lock, pretty much everything after that is imune. My list is correct, if you don't belive me as a coercer what mobs are imune to thought snap, it will be the same. You will still get the taunt portion, but it will not taunt lock a mob to you. If you want to test it out let somebody else pull, then hit plant, you will notice the mob will not change targets. You won't get red letters telling you the mob was imune, because the taunt portion of the spell hits, and you get that big 4k threat; look out zerkers there is a new ae tank in town.

aislynn00

09-25-2010, 07:06 PM

<cite>Twizty@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><table cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td align="left" valign="top"><a></a>aislynn00</td><td height="28" valign="top"><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td width="100%"> 9/20/2010 07:54:18 Subject: Re<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />lant, now more worthless in raids </td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"><hr /></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">You know what Xelgad's stance on this is? He believes we are now balanced. This directly from the man via private message to my wife, who wrote to him to complain about the sorry state of the class.And you guys are enabling his delusions!<hr /></td></tr></tbody></table>If the above statement is true, then we're pretty much screwed. I've played my guard since launch, through the good times and the bad and it's going to kill me to betray him to a berzerker but I think it's going to have to be done if this is the conclusion of the long awaited 'tank balance'. We are far from balanced, our dps is sub par, tps is a joke and even after the 'improvements' our utility is still the least desirable to bring along to a raid. It's a real pity Xelgad didn't listen to the more sensible ideas from the guardian community instead of letting trolls and fools keep our class well and truly at the bottom of the tank heap.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote>It is true. Feel free to message Xelgad yourself and ask for confirmation. Perhaps if enough people complain directly, he will come to his senses. He certainly doesn't seem to read our posts.

MurFalad

09-27-2010, 06:15 AM

From a non-raiding perspective the new plant vs the old one is more useful, but its not iconically a guardian ability anymore for me.I'm fine with it remaining a target lock ability that does some threat, but I'd like to see the DPS reduction returned back to it. Since we are fairly poor in the AOE side of things it wouldn't be OP, but would give us a "we are the tank that mitigates the most" ability to make us stand out from more DPS/AOE heavy tanks.As for any extra DPS, I'd rather not have this added to plant, my reasoning is that we already have a boatload of other abilities that do DPS, and further spreading our DPS across more button pushes makes no sense to me. I'd rather see Assault or that AA blue buffed up to add in more DPS if its needed.(I'm of the opinion all fighters do not need more DPS, but rather less, but fighter balance is a seperate issue).

Maveric_LOL

09-29-2010, 01:52 PM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>why are we even considering +1 Hate Position instead of the force-target effect when SK's, berserkers, and paladins have infinitely better equivalent tools?What do you want guardians to be? The tank with the most survivability? The best single-target DPS plate tank? What? Make a decision, then push for it, and don't be humble and ask for pathically weak changes, like a single positional increase on a melee-range blue taunt.</blockquote>Holy Ground right now is +1 Hate position (first hit only) and +hate/dmg component, with additional hate/dmg on ever successive hit for 10 seconds. 10m Range on the hate positonal.Grave sacrament is better dps, and has 2 positions on the initial hit.Its not like its an instant ride to the top 24 positonal increase with a target lock...Infact brawlers and zerkers prolly have better snaps atmJust sayin...

Undorett

10-01-2010, 12:30 PM

IMO the only problem with the new plant is its very small range (should be increased to a base of 10m extending up to 20 with the AA). Even if you dump 5 points into the skill you only get the range to 10m. Guardians skills are all very small ranges, where as the other plate classes have massive range on their abilities. This is not to say that plant is the Saviour of our AOE threat problems, just that it is a decent tool. With that said, I think we need another blue open AOE +1 position + threat component taunt. The best ability to change this into is the taunting assault green AOE that none of us at the solo, heroic, or epic level even click due to its absurdly long cast time compared to all the rest of our skills. Obviously the cast time (down to 0.5s or less), recast (up to 1-2m), etc would need to be adjusted from its current state.Is it unreasonable for us to have both a blue target lock and a blue + 1 position, IMO no. Look at the other plate tanks and what they have for blue abilities. We would still have very minimal blue dps, but at least gain some threat.

LivelyHound

10-04-2010, 02:40 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Plant should be a +1 positional with a hate over time component, dump the buggy target lock.</blockquote>OK so now that you have a mini amends you want holy ground too? Are you going to complete the trade and give Paladins Reinforcement? and mini TOS?<blockquote>MurFalad: "its not iconically a guardian ability anymore for me."</blockquote>Nor is Amends any more so whats new? The Paladin class defining skill for which every other part of their character was gimped for so long, guess what!, guards now have it.<blockquote>Emlar: " Now that you read Plant definition, where do you see any limitation to Raid content ".</blockquote>I see many illusionist spells that don't read: "does not effect heroics", nor do many read "does not effect epics"... and yet lo and behold 90% of heroic and epic mobs all you hear as an Illusionist is, immune ding, cast noise, immune ding! Rinse repeat.<blockquote>Aislynn: "Why are we even considering +1 Hate Position instead of the force-target effect when SK's, berserkers, and paladins have infinitely better equivalent tools? We are supposed to be better than the other tanks in some regards, just as the other tanks are better than us in other regards."</blockquote>Seriously Paladins have better snaps? than a guard? Paladins hate over time is awesome, paladins and snaps they have HG, rescue and sneering assault. Rescue and sneering every fighter gets. HG is +1 position with hate over time. Thats it. Any mob them has a memwipe portion sucks to be a paladin. Reinforcement? +1 position every hit for 13 secs base. Cry of the warrior +2 pos. You can reduce rescue recast on a guard further than you can on a paladin thanks to the guardian tree. So what exactly is the better equivalent tool that a paladin gets. Hate over time we used to have Amends, HG and Sigil to give us better hate tools than any other fighter over time but Paladins never had snaps. We used to have HG version 1, but 12 secs of hate lock was too much, and here you guards are crying that you got a hate lock that doesnt work on 100% of mobs. Guess what neither does any other tank on those same mobs and paladins certainly don't have any hate lock on those that yours do affect, for the simple reason no Paladin spell reads :"Forces target to change their selected target to caster" or "Prevent targets in area of effect from changing targets". Guards just got amends in a reduced form. I guess we should give you HG and Sigil too. But apparently +1pos plus taunt over time isnt worth considering, even though it is a Paladins LVL 80 Endgame Special Spell. Throw a Crane Twirl or Grave Sac in there coupled with a Rift, a Dispatch, an epic Mez, and mini Channel and maybe that might work for you?Now about you being better in some respect, somewhere... you have the best sodding saves in the game and more of them than any other fighter class. More defensive stats than crusaders and brawlers, not sure about zerks, you just got a massive set of boosts to aoe hate and dps and your not happy. You just got a whole set of changes and your unhappy because you got an aoe taunt that doesnt 100% of mobs force them to target and lock them to you? If it did it would be 8 secs in every 45secs with reasonable reuse. Better reuse and you could get that down to what 40 secs? So with one 98 pwr cost spell you could permanently lock any mob to you 20% of the time. Add in Cry of the warrior and its target lock for anothr 8 secs every 3mins45 or so and you could reliably hit 30% target lock. Add in Thought snap for another 7 secs every 1min. Then add in all your snaps coercive shout and so on and it would be a joke to lock any memwiping mob to you, negating the whole mechanic.There is a reason a lot of mobs are immune to that sort of stuff. If anyone should get a target lock that effects every mob in the game it is coercers not guards.

Landiin

10-04-2010, 03:39 PM

I know right, Guards are so awesome now it isn't even funny!

Draylore

10-04-2010, 04:25 PM

Ive seen the new plant effect a epic mob.I recently boxed my guard on HM twins and was using him to help manage/round up adds on the melee side and figured plant would be perfect since the adds are heroic.........lol when I hit plant and locked the 4 adds and the named =PAs for the new plant........I like it but the radius really needs to be abit larger...at least 2x what it is now with AA.

Yimway

10-04-2010, 05:31 PM

<cite>LivelyHound wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Plant should be a +1 positional with a hate over time component, dump the buggy target lock.</blockquote>OK so now that you have a mini amends you want holy ground too? Are you going to complete the trade and give Paladins Reinforcement? and mini TOS?</blockquote>I don't have mini-amends as its worthless to me. I also strongly disagreed with it being added to the class as it solved _nothing_.We do however lack an aoe over time hate ability. Previously plant would atleast proc reinforcement, so it could be chained to give some meaningful aoe hate utility for us. Target locks are known to be buggy, and with that knowledge in hand, I fail to comprehend why another one was dolled out by Xelgad.I do agree with others and feel the revamp from Xelgad largely missed the mark. The class is only really relevant in a tiny section of content. The further rollback of the mitigation tweaks further demonstrates missing the mark on our pointless mitigation buffs.Plant should have been changed to be more aoe threat relevant rather than less, and our mitigation buffs should have been replaced with straight damage reduction buffs so that we in all scenarios take less damage than our counterparts, since well, in all scenarios, we also do less damage.

dr4gonUK

10-04-2010, 07:55 PM

Not that it matters i guess, but plant does work on raid mobs, and it gets resisted/parried also. Not consistent enough to spend 5aa on but it works well when it works. So no its not worthless. It worked less as its previous incarnation.

LivelyHound

10-06-2010, 12:39 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't have mini-amends as its worthless to me. I also strongly disagreed with it being added to the class as it solved _nothing_.</blockquote>The point ----> .I think you missed it. You may not spec for mini amends but that does not mean that the class does not have it.Also it does allieviate some of your aoe agro issues, in other words it was a solution to aoe hate over time. Whether you liked the implementation or not.

Undorett

10-06-2010, 02:36 PM

<cite>LivelyHound wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't have mini-amends as its worthless to me. I also strongly disagreed with it being added to the class as it solved _nothing_.</blockquote>The point ----> .I think you missed it. You may not spec for mini amends but that does not mean that the class does not have it.Also it does allieviate some of your aoe agro issues, in other words it was a solution to aoe hate over time. Whether you liked the implementation or not.</blockquote>I have it, my reasons have nothing to do with AOE threat over time, it did almost nothing for my AOE threat over time. Guardians already have far too many passive agro tools.The only situations I have found plant of any use at all are on Ark (which by the way, the 36% snare resistance we got does absolutely nothing, nor does it do anything on Horaastaas), Twins United, and R&R. I like it better than the old plant, but I still feel its range is not as large as it should be, even with 5 points dumped into it. We are also in need of an AOE snap.

LivelyHound

10-07-2010, 12:45 PM

Undorett, I was just using the fact that it can be used in conjunction with an aoe class to provide aoe over time threat as a solution to aoe agro problems if necessary. I appreciate that is not what most would use it for. For Atan to say it solves nothing is disingenuous as it can be used to solve problems. It was also in response to my earlier point of a paladins class defining ability for so long being given to Guards which was the initial point that he ignored much like the fact he is now asking for holy ground too. It seems to me that he wants Guards to have all their unique defensive abilities plus all the nice things Paladins have. In other words, he wants his cake and to eat it , and to have my cake and eat that to. Except he wants it easier than HG where you get no threat over time component if you are stunned stifled dazed charmed becuase you have to actively hit things to proc the hate. He wants just a hate over time secondary passive effect. Sheesh. Now as to the new plant versus the old plant, the both had and have uses. Should it have been something different maybe. But if you want different then ask for it don't keep asking for Paladin, SK, Chanter, abilities as he does, because that is not different its treading on toes and annoying every other community in the process. Hence the current backlash. Furthermore you Guards need an aoe snap, fair enough, but you can always use assault + reinforcement for an aoe snap so there are ways available to you to deal with it as I'm sure you are aware. And yes that is only +1 aoe, but then that is exaclty what a Paladin gets from HG. It's the only non all fighter snap they get, so apart from the hate generation after from HG threat increase you already have identical aoe snaps, single snaps, plus an extra snap as shown before and the mainstay of rescue is on a faster timer for a gaurd. So as I pointed out, Guards, have better snaps, they have better spike prevention, better base defenses and your dps and threat have been greatly increased, without yet enough time passed to see just how up to par Guards dps or threat have come. In the same amount of time Paladins have had over 40+ pts of aa abilities made useless, they have had 3-6 core spells made useless. Guards may not have it great but I do not think they have it anywhere near as bad as most would have us believe. My guild guard never had a problem except for low dps, but he has completely closed the gap with my Paladin on the content we do through no change in gear. The day after the changes all finished he jumped to right next to me on the parse, with substantially more chance of not dying thanks to all Guard saves. Incidentally I would not mind in the least if the range was increased however I believe Xelgad outlined the reason for its range is to be inline with other similar fighter abilities but I cant recall which thread I read that in. (In-testing forum i think maybe)

Landiin

10-07-2010, 01:16 PM

I don't nessasarly disagree with you. However if your guard is is equal to you in DPS then either your group make up is bad are you need a lessen in how to DPS a pally.

Undorett

10-07-2010, 03:46 PM

15% agro transfer is VASTLY different from your amends, in fact, its lower than coercer transfer, lower than assassin transfer, lower than swash transfer, in fact the only transfer it is larger than is the sorcerer transfer. This is why it doesn't help with AOE threat in the way it needs to. Furthermore, it is not an active skill, guardians are plagued with passive abilities to the point that bards and chanters are and complain about it in the same way that they do. We want active abilities.You point out to Atan that your hate over time is stunted due to stuns and stifles, yet you have an ability that cures and makes you immune to stuns and stifles usable on a very short recast. Holy ground is not your cake. Every time you push holy ground, you are eating some Zerker cake. They are the original AOE threat masters. SKs, Bruisers, Pallys, and Zerkers all have blue AOE + positional threat increases with added components (damage or threat). Monks can turn their taunts into positionals with their end line. Guardians had something that did this (plant + reinforcement) but no longer do. You say to use reinforcement plus our Blue AOE, but what you don't get is that we are using that Blue AOE every single time it is up just to maintain some illusion that we are attempting to hold agro on multiple mobs. The reason some think that plant was so great was that you would never even dream of pushing that button, unless you had reinforcement rolling. We cannot afford to hold off pushing our blue AOE to wait for reinforcement to be up and still attempt to hold agro. In addition to this, look at the range on Holy Ground, Gibe, GS, etc and then look at the range on our blue AOE skill (5m radius) that you want us to use with reinforcement. It is unreasonable for us to use this skill to snap back multiple loose mobs. As for your DPS comments, you need to look into the buttons you might be pushing compared to those your other pally friends are pushing. I can tell you without a doubt pallys do far more dps than guardians in every situation. And to "jump right next to you on the parse" a guardian needs to give up their shield, which means they give up 35% uncontested avoidance (that you don't give up) and 2 of their saves do not work without a shield. So in fact, we have a substantially more chance of dying than a pally thanks to that.Xelgad's outlined reason for its range was a terrible reason. Due to bruisers having an ability that has 2 positions and 4k damage with a range of 5 meters, then guardian's plant skill which target locks and does 1k threat should also be 5 meters...I don't understand his reasoning, I never will. When you fight a mob and the healers/casters are standing at max heal range and a mob or two gets loose, as a guardian you have two choices. 1. Let that person die and it comes back to you. 2. Have an off tank go get the mob. Because 3. go get that mob yourself, is not an option, your mob will just AOE the group / raid and kill them all.

Emlar_from_Halas

10-26-2010, 03:37 AM

Can we consider Zraxth's Unseen Arcanum as a raid zone ? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />Because in this case, Plant proved to be VERY valuable in raids.It's our key feature to counter 1st name mem wipes. With a 50secs recast, I've been able to use it 3 times before Rhee'Gorr went down.Of course, I wished I had a zerk or SK dps on this fight, but managing mem wipes is already a good step forward.

Torum

10-26-2010, 03:17 PM

Guards are still worthless, buddy of mine finally betrayed to zerker because of revamp being utterly crap. Xeglad or what ever his name is will be fired in a few years like the rest before him for being well like the rest before him. I closed out my Sub yet again after being dissapointed yet again by SOE. Word of advice guardian class eq2 has left you behind, return the favor. Mabey then youll see some changes but doubtful until then I wait for Rift and Guildwars 2

Vlahkmaak

11-09-2010, 07:55 PM

<cite>Torum76 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Word of advice guardian class eq2 has left you behind, return the favor. Mabey then youll see some changes but doubtful until then I wait for Rift and Guildwars 2</blockquote>Looking seriously at RIFTs but I ahve been waiting on a Velious xpac for a long time - might play the both of them before I just fade off eq2 forever. Hoping for a glimmer of hope from EQ3 as no other MMO out there is developing any large scale EQ1 type enviornments. RIFTs even ahs that dreaded and feared Bword class + the ability to respec on the fly as needed. But Velious brings back some fond memories. [Removed for Content] you SOE for playing on fond memories of yester year.

Bruener

11-10-2010, 07:28 PM

<cite>Torum76 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards are still worthless, buddy of mine finally betrayed to zerker because of revamp being utterly crap. Xeglad or what ever his name is will be fired in a few years like the rest before him for being well like the rest before him. I closed out my Sub yet again after being dissapointed yet again by SOE. Word of advice guardian class eq2 has left you behind, return the favor. Mabey then youll see some changes but doubtful until then I wait for Rift and Guildwars 2</blockquote>LOL.Any raiding guild that is not currently using a Guard as a MT is just putting themselves at a disadvantage.Its like using an Inq in the MT group. Sure it can be done, but there is definitely a difference.As to the Plant argument the spell does work in RAIDS a lot. It picks up tons of mobs and will target lock them. Usually only named are immune to target lock....meaning everything that comes along with it aren't immune to it. It does exactly what it is supposed to do.

Landiin

11-10-2010, 08:06 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Torum76 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards are still worthless, buddy of mine finally betrayed to zerker because of revamp being utterly crap. Xeglad or what ever his name is will be fired in a few years like the rest before him for being well like the rest before him. I closed out my Sub yet again after being dissapointed yet again by SOE. Word of advice guardian class eq2 has left you behind, return the favor. Mabey then youll see some changes but doubtful until then I wait for Rift and Guildwars 2</blockquote>LOL.Any raiding guild that is not currently using a Guard as a MT is just putting themselves at a disadvantage.Its like using an Inq in the MT group. Sure it can be done, but there is definitely a difference.As to the Plant argument the spell does work in RAIDS a lot. It picks up tons of mobs and will target lock them. Usually only named are immune to target lock....meaning everything that comes along with it aren't immune to it. It does exactly what it is supposed to do.</blockquote>So the top 5 guilds are putting themselves at a disadvantage?

Bruener

11-10-2010, 09:16 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Torum76 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards are still worthless, buddy of mine finally betrayed to zerker because of revamp being utterly crap. Xeglad or what ever his name is will be fired in a few years like the rest before him for being well like the rest before him. I closed out my Sub yet again after being dissapointed yet again by SOE. Word of advice guardian class eq2 has left you behind, return the favor. Mabey then youll see some changes but doubtful until then I wait for Rift and Guildwars 2</blockquote>LOL.Any raiding guild that is not currently using a Guard as a MT is just putting themselves at a disadvantage.Its like using an Inq in the MT group. Sure it can be done, but there is definitely a difference.As to the Plant argument the spell does work in RAIDS a lot. It picks up tons of mobs and will target lock them. Usually only named are immune to target lock....meaning everything that comes along with it aren't immune to it. It does exactly what it is supposed to do.</blockquote>So the top 5 guilds are putting themselves at a disadvantage?</blockquote>Yes.It takes time for things to change. As some tanks move on more Guards will be recruited into the MT spot. Of course player skill has everything to do with it and those using a very skilled tank as the MT aren't going to just go out and make the change like in RoK.Get the combo of a skilled player as a Guard and its is an advantage in raiding.There is a big reason why all the fighter boards are so quiet currently. What needed to change was changed...time to move on.

Terron

11-11-2010, 11:57 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is a big reason why all the fighter boards are so quiet currently. What needed to change was changed...time to move on.</blockquote>A major problem has been fixed - guards not being able to performa the tank role well in groups. But there is plenty more that needs changing. Time to move on to that.Things like guards bringing nothing more than the ability to tank to a raid, whereas the other plate tanks do that and more.But this has already been said many times.

Wasuna

11-11-2010, 11:58 AM

Paladins take less physical damage than Guardians and can put up their own ward for AoE's that you can time.SK's are king of survivability with Bloodletter.I don't see anything changing anytime soon.Breuner, maybe you should look at things in detail and not base everything you say on your own personnel experiances. Your raid force is effective the way it's built. But, as said above, the raids that are surpassing you have one major difference to your raid. I'm sure your MT is a very experiance and capable player but a mechanic that has the right tools will fix your car much faster than the one who only has a screwdriver. The guy with the screwdriver might get it fixed but it's probably not gonna be pretty and it's gonna take a long time.

Bruener

11-11-2010, 12:52 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladins take less physical damage than Guardians and can put up their own ward for AoE's that you can time.SK's are king of survivability with Bloodletter.I don't see anything changing anytime soon.Breuner, maybe you should look at things in detail and not base everything you say on your own personnel experiances. Your raid force is effective the way it's built. But, as said above, the raids that are surpassing you have one major difference to your raid. I'm sure your MT is a very experiance and capable player but a mechanic that has the right tools will fix your car much faster than the one who only has a screwdriver. The guy with the screwdriver might get it fixed but it's probably not gonna be pretty and it's gonna take a long time.</blockquote>Maybe you should take your own advice and look at details and mechanics currently.Yes Paladins take less on physical hits when they do damage.Yes SKs have Bloodletter.But what you fail to recognize is the vast amount of stoneskins that Guards have, and now with mobs having casting bars how easy it is to stoneskin everything that does big damage. A Guard can sit there and watch a mobs casting bar and see when they are casting their big AEs...and BAM stoneskin = no damage taken. The fact that their stoneskins are on a pretty fast recast and they have so many means that they can stoneskin every round of AEs. And in case you guys haven't noticed AEs are what is doing the major spike damage this xpac. The change of adding cast bars on mobs alone was a huge step for Guard advantage. Now throw in all the additional changes that they rec'd and they are quite the power houses.To the above poster complaining about Guards contribution to the raid other than tanking you do realize there is more to utility than just personal DPS right? Guards provide a huge HP buff to the raid. They can AE immune the other fighters which is huge in helping them avoid damage. They can stoneskin for their group. They do this all while being hte best at taking damage, or really avoiding damage with how easy stoneskins are utilized now.And to top it off they do all this without ANY agro problems at all. ST and AE.Yeah, thats why nobody is complaining. Things are great and its time to move on. Not that I expect the couple little whiners that run rampant around here to ever understand simple mechanics.

Landiin

11-11-2010, 01:11 PM

Can you guys ban him again? It was so nice not having to see his BS spewing all over the place for a while.But hey, what they have planned for SK well maybe tanks in general for next year, plan on seeing Bruener QQ all over the place.

RafaelSmith

11-11-2010, 02:54 PM

While I still think that in general the entire fighter archetype needs work...i.e most fighter classes simply are able to do way more than tanks should.........IMO Guardian atm is doing pretty well. My main raid toon is an Assassin but I have had the chance recently to play my Guard more on other raids and have not felt any of the gimpness or disadvantage I did in TSO and early parts of SF.I see some outstanding issues with Guards with respect to balance against the others and that is we still really do not offer much more than being MT and even then what we offer is really not all that much more than the others which offer alot more in addition. Yes we can tank.......yes we can hold aggro just fine........but so can they. Second, is that when we are not tanking we really are rather useless on a raid......yeah the new HP buff change was ok but hardly a reason to waste a slot with a non-MT Guardian. This is something I have experienced recently.......i feel useless and like a total leach taking my Guard on a raid that already has MT. The truth is that if your a up and comming SK or Pally or Brawler or Zerker your chances of being taken on a raid as a non MT or even as a 2nd of your class is much much higher than if you were a Guard. Nobody wants more than 1 single Guard and when they do its not for a non-MT role. This makes it really hard for Guardians not already grandfathered in to get into raiding....which is ironically the only purpose for their class. Nobody recruits Guards period.Personally I dont think this is a Guardian class issue.....its an overall archetype and game issue so really doubt it will ever be addressed.Another issue is that Guardian requires alot better gear to be as effective as SK is with lesser gear....not really sure if that is a class issue or yet another result of Defensive tanks becoming obsolete.All in all i think SOE needs to take a hard look at the entire tank archetype.....most of us really need to be put back in our place so to speak (Guards included) =P

Soul_Dreamer

11-12-2010, 07:15 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paladins take less physical damage than Guardians and can put up their own ward for AoE's that you can time.SK's are king of survivability with Bloodletter.I don't see anything changing anytime soon.Breuner, maybe you should look at things in detail and not base everything you say on your own personnel experiances. Your raid force is effective the way it's built. But, as said above, the raids that are surpassing you have one major difference to your raid. I'm sure your MT is a very experiance and capable player but a mechanic that has the right tools will fix your car much faster than the one who only has a screwdriver. The guy with the screwdriver might get it fixed but it's probably not gonna be pretty and it's gonna take a long time.</blockquote>Maybe you should take your own advice and look at details and mechanics currently.Yes Paladins take less on physical hits when they do damage.Yes SKs have Bloodletter.1. But what you fail to recognize is the vast amount of stoneskins that Guards have, and now with mobs having casting bars how easy it is to stoneskin everything that does big damage. A Guard can sit there and watch a mobs casting bar and see when they are casting their big AEs...and BAM stoneskin = no damage taken. The fact that their stoneskins are on a pretty fast recast and they have so many means that they can stoneskin every round of AEs. And in case you guys haven't noticed AEs are what is doing the major spike damage this xpac. The change of adding cast bars on mobs alone was a huge step for Guard advantage. Now throw in all the additional changes that they rec'd and they are quite the power houses.2. To the above poster complaining about Guards contribution to the raid other than tanking you do realize there is more to utility than just personal DPS right? Guards provide a huge HP buff to the raid. They can AE immune the other fighters which is huge in helping them avoid damage. They can stoneskin for their group. They do this all while being hte best at taking damage, or really avoiding damage with how easy stoneskins are utilized now.3. And to top it off they do all this without ANY agro problems at all. ST and AE.4. Yeah, thats why nobody is complaining. Things are great and its time to move on. Not that I expect the couple little whiners that run rampant around here to ever understand simple mechanics.</blockquote>1. Tower of Stone at MINIMUM has a recast of 1 min (Base 2), Last man standing has a recast of 3 mins, sorry but how with this VAST number of stoneskins can I avoid every AOE that does damage. You can avoid 1 of each of the first 2 sets of AOE's then every other one until LMS is back up. Stonesphere is a "Proc Chance" and cannot be relied upon to avoid AOE's and also has a 3 min recast. Please get your facts straight.2. 1.5k HP, "Avoid AOE's on OTHER fighters" this is the bottom line of a very crap AA line, I've never taken it and I never will if my other fighters can't handle doing their roles without a Guardian helping them along then they need to rethink how they are playing their class. Stoneskin their group...? See Stonesphere being a "CHANCE" above.3. Agro is better now than it was a couple of months ago but it is still nowhere near the other tanks due to the DPS difference that still exists, more DPS = more HAte.4. You calling people rampant whiners is possible the most ironic thing you've ever said <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The fact is people are complaining, and at the end of the day there are now very few Guardians to actually complain. Things are better but we still have abilities that can kill us if we use them in the way they are meant to be used and out DPS is still no where near that of the other tanks but AOE and ST.

Yimway

11-12-2010, 06:57 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) And to top it off they do all this without ANY agro problems at all. ST and AE.2) Yeah, thats why nobody is complaining. Things are great and its time to move on. Not that I expect the couple little whiners that run rampant around here to ever understand simple mechanics.</blockquote>1) You sir are dreaming. If I'm sword and board and stoping attacks to use block effectively to stoneskin the attacks, agro on ST is an issue, and agro in AE is ridiculously behind other plate tanks. If your statement was true that we could be the most defensive and have no agro issues, you might have a solid point.2) No one is complaining cause no one is left playing the class.

Bruener

11-12-2010, 08:54 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) And to top it off they do all this without ANY agro problems at all. ST and AE.2) Yeah, thats why nobody is complaining. Things are great and its time to move on. Not that I expect the couple little whiners that run rampant around here to ever understand simple mechanics.</blockquote>1) You sir are dreaming. If I'm sword and board and stoping attacks to use block effectively to stoneskin the attacks, agro on ST is an issue, and agro in AE is ridiculously behind other plate tanks. If your statement was true that we could be the most defensive and have no agro issues, you might have a solid point.2) No one is complaining cause no one is left playing the class.</blockquote>Yeah I must be dreaming. I mean because I unlike you have the experience of seeing it first hand. I am sorry you haven't figured out the agro issue yet.As to AE agro versus other tanks. Yes Guard AE agro generation is lower....However that doesn't change the fact that they have easily enough AE agro to hold off of AE DPS'ers. The AE force target alone is enough to get agro rolling and hold mobs. So yeah, solid point - check. (Oh thats right, some of you think you should be the best MT and equal OT too....)As to no one playing the class I will give you that a lot rerolled or betrayed over the last couple years. Probably something they should have done a while ago because the vast majority of them can't cut it as MT anyway and rolled the class during a time they were extremely OP'd with the expectation of being the best Fighter at everything in the game. They should have rolled a different class for their OT-type playstyle they wanted in the first place.Keep making excuses, I am sure that it will make you better someday....And Soul your post is good for a laugh. You completely ignore all the abilities of Guards meanwhile I see you attacking Paladins in their thread that are trying to address some of their issues. Hypocrit much? Speaking as a SK I can see why Paladins that have a huge amount of AAs vested into their heals have room to complain since Heals for ALL tanks are now worthless. I laugh at the grossly small amount my heals do in this game now and for some reason AAs that increase the ability of very very little are supposed to be worth taking?

Soul_Dreamer

11-12-2010, 10:10 PM

Until mitigation is balanced Paladins asking for more heals is them asking for even more over a Guardian, this is in balanced. They already have the same mitigation, or very very close so it doesn't matter, they have more Damage reduction, better hate, better DPS, they should suddenly get equal spike tools as well? That's what I'm argueing against. Boli is asking for 40% potency buffs attacked to heals, stoneskins attached to heals, Massive increases in the ward amounts, being un-interuptable, the list just goes on.As for ignoring abilities... You were on about stoneskins re7ard, Last Man standing/Tower of Stone/Stone sphere ARE the only stone skin abilities a Guardian has, which other fictional abilities should I have mentioned?Tower of stone, recast of 1 min MINIMUM, most Guardians will have it at this.Last Man standing, recast of 3 mins, most Gurdians won't get it below 2min 30.Guardian Sphere, 25% CHANCE of a stoneskin for 30 seconds on a 3 min reuse.AOE set 1 - Cast ToS, the other 2 AOE's in that set we have to eat.AOE set 2 - Cast LMS, the other 2 AOE's in that set we have to eat.AOE set 3 - ToS is up, The other 2 AOE's we have to eat.AOE set 4 - NOTHING UP, eat all.AOE set 5 - ToS is up,eat the other 2.AOE set 6 - LMS "may" be up, Eat 2.AOE set 7 - Tos, eat 2.Seven sets of AOE's (21 AOE's) and we can block 5 of them, that's less than 25%. It's simple sodding maths, and these are the VAST amount of stoneskins you're always referring to! In that same time frame a Zerker can reduce EVERY SINGLE AOE by 50%, who took the least damage and spiked less? A Paladin can have a ~4k ward up for each and has 10% damage reduction and LC to reduce at least 4 of the AOE's by 40%, LC also applies to the SK.I'll say it again since you seem to be hard of reading, Guardian Sphere CANNOT be used reliably to block AOE's so you just cannot count it as a realiable form of stoneskin, in these situations.

Motzi

11-15-2010, 02:06 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>As to AE agro versus other tanks. Yes Guard AE agro generation is lower....However that doesn't change the fact that they have easily enough AE agro to hold off of AE DPS'ers. The AE force target alone is enough to get agro rolling and hold mobs. So yeah, solid point - check. (Oh thats right, some of you think you should be the best MT and equal OT too....)</blockquote>You're so full of crap it isn't funny man. The aoe target lock doesn't work on 95%+ or raid content.Now if your saying the class has no problems holding ae aggro in heroic content, I agree with you. If your saying the class has no problems holding ST or AE agro in raid environments, you're dreaming. The entire design of the class at this point is focused around MTing with the ability of avoiding most of the scripted spike damage by controlling exact timings of stoneskins effectively. That's pretty much the class description at this point in as far as raid roles. The issues presented are the low agro generation running the sword and board to do so effectively combined with pausing of CA/Taunt use for durations around the spike damage events (ca/taunt use negates the primary stoneskin).This presents agro challenges for this class in raid/MT role that no other plate tank deals with.