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Thunndar316

09-16-2010, 10:55 PM

Just curious what you guys recommend on red adorns for Mystic.I bought Stance crit bonus, bolster, torpor and ancestral sentry. I'm guessing runic armor should be my 5th? Did not think the healing ones were worth it neither the debuffs.Any advise is appreciated.

Arcanemundi

09-17-2010, 07:17 AM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just curious what you guys recommend on red adorns for Mystic.I bought Stance crit bonus, bolster, torpor and ancestral sentry. I'm guessing runic armor should be my 5th? Did not think the healing ones were worth it neither the debuffs.Any advise is appreciated.</blockquote>Sentry absorbs big hits on one or two toons every now and then (usually the MT,) but it is not as focused as Transcendence. When your group gets pummeled with multiple AoEs, and your Ancestral Channeling is down, wouldn't you prefer a 15% bigger group heal to green them all up, instead of a slightly more frequent Sentry?There are also a few raid encounters (Tox, Maalus, Vaclaz, Triplets, etc.) that dish out tons of noxious damage. Don't you think it would be better to have a 30% larger nox ward protecting each individual in your group on those fights, than a 5% or less improved physical mitigation stat?The rest of the red adorns should be: Reuse, Stance, Torpor, and Lamenting Soul.

Banditman

09-17-2010, 11:00 AM

On non-class specific slots, Re-use or Potency are both valid options.On class specific slots Torpor, Runic Armor and Transcendance are non-negotiable. You need those, period.I always keep something in my bags with Prophetic Ward on it. Boots, hat, whatever. When fights with a lot of Nox damage come up, that adorn is worth it's weight in platinum. Honestly, there is no reason this can't be a main equipment adorn. There are so freakin' many mobs that use Noxious.Most folks run Priest Stances adorn, but frankly that's just because they can't find anything better. For Mystics, 10 crit bonus isn't very great due to the mechanics of Ward crits. But honestly, there isn't much else.After that, I don't think there is really ever going to be a consensus.Lamenting Soul is kinda useless honestly. There are WAY too many classes with DPS debuffs for that extra 20 to matter. Raid mobs are ridiculously over the debuff cap already, that extra 20 is nothing.Lethargy is nice because it adds something you don't have - crit debuff.Bolster is ok, I guess. Can't hurt to have it up longer, moreso if you have taken AA's to improve it. It's just not the game changer it used to be.

Arcanemundi

09-17-2010, 11:53 AM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raid mobs are ridiculously over the debuff cap already, that extra 20 is nothing.</blockquote>On a few raid fights the raid force is split between separate mob encounters, such as Tox, Penda/Kendis United, Rohen Theer, R&R, Aaskas/Maakat/Uthgar, so debuffs are split for most the fight as well. Add in the constant wiping of debuffs, how do you know the mob is at debuff cap all the time?

Banditman

09-17-2010, 12:57 PM

I *know* that the 20 extra DPS you can debuff a mobs *autoattack* by is useless, in every single case.Look at the damage output of any SF raid mob. Where is his damage coming from? In nearly every case, the damage output from auto attack is so low that it's laughable. It's been going this direction for a long time now.Sure, back in T5 and T6, DPS debuffs were great. In EoF, still very important, but you started seeing the change in the winds then as more and more mobs had big AE's and more special abilities. From that point forward, mob auto attack has slowly decreased in importance to the point it is today.Debuff the mob or not, you will notice very little difference.It's actually kinda funny the way things have turned. Back then, stat debuffs were largely useless. Now, it's far more important to get the appropriate stat debuffs on a mob than any DPS / Haste debuffs.

Arcanemundi

09-17-2010, 03:41 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I *know* that the 20 extra DPS you can debuff a mobs *autoattack* by is useless, in every single case.Look at the damage output of any SF raid mob. Where is his damage coming from? In nearly every case, the damage output from auto attack is so low that it's laughable. It's been going this direction for a long time now.Sure, back in T5 and T6, DPS debuffs were great. In EoF, still very important, but you started seeing the change in the winds then as more and more mobs had big AE's and more special abilities. From that point forward, mob auto attack has slowly decreased in importance to the point it is today.Debuff the mob or not, you will notice very little difference.It's actually kinda funny the way things have turned. Back then, stat debuffs were largely useless. Now, it's far more important to get the appropriate stat debuffs on a mob than any DPS / Haste debuffs.</blockquote><div>Unless your MT/OT is a ninja and never dies, you might want to consider debuffing, at least on the progression fights. Less Mob DPS on the MT or OT = more wards up more of the time, right? Even if you were 100% correct, and the melee attacks are smaller in size than they have ever been, every "small" attack delayed, or decreased in size, results in more wards up more of the time for the big AEs. However, the hard mode melee auto attack damage I have inspected on incoming damage parses is not as small as you are making it out to be, especially when the auto attack coincides with the big AEs you seem more concerned about. The one thing I do agree with you on is that AEs, and specials, do hit harder than auto attacks. But that just emphasizes my point. If the AEs eat our wards up, and then at the same time a smaller, but still significant, auto attack hit lands on the tank, it might be unwarded, and can become a problem if reactives are down or you get stuned/knocked back/controlled/etc.. The opposite is also true. If an auto attack eats up a single target ward, then all the tank has to protect him would be a damaged group ward when the big AE hits. If the auto attack size was debuffed, you would have more wards up.All the damage put out by a mob needs to be avoided, mitigated, warded, or healed through, no matter what the size. Decreasing attack speed for example would have a side effect by enhancing avoidance, since the tank, templar, and brawler, have less attacks to avoid per minute, thus increasing the actual amount of attacks avoided overall.Geared out Mystics currently are focusing on getting one or two more percent potency, and reuse, to compensate for the AEs and damage spikes, so it would follow that we should also focus on reducing incoming damage from hard hitting melee mobs, since it all adds up, and is really the same thing. That is why casting debuffs, and possibly considering maximizing Lamenting Soul, increases survivability for tanks and raids.</div>

Banditman

09-20-2010, 10:09 AM

You're reading too much in to what I said. The point of the thread was what to do with the few precious red adorn slots allotted. I am telling you that you are wasting your time with adding 20 DPS to the reduction of Lamenting Soul. Choose something that *matters*. You can debuff a mob crit by 5 with Lethargy (using an adorn). This is akin to giving your entire raid force an extra 5 crit mit. Raidwide 5 percent crit mit buff? Yea, that's huge. Combine with the Deteriorate AA for 10 percent total, and you've got a winner, if you feel like you need a real edge.Remember, crit applies to auto attack too.

Arcanemundi

09-20-2010, 08:28 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're reading too much in to what I said. The point of the thread was what to do with the few precious red adorn slots allotted. I am telling you that you are wasting your time with adding 20 DPS to the reduction of Lamenting Soul. Choose something that *matters*. You can debuff a mob crit by 5 with Lethargy (using an adorn). This is akin to giving your entire raid force an extra 5 crit mit. Raidwide 5 percent crit mit buff? Yea, that's huge. Combine with the Deteriorate AA for 10 percent total, and you've got a winner, if you feel like you need a real edge.Remember, crit applies to auto attack too.</blockquote>You made a small mistake: You can not combine the AA Deterioration -5% Crit "Bonus" effect, and the red adorn Focus:Lethargy -5% Crit "Chance" effects to arrive at -10%, they are very different in nature, and not the same effect as you stated. Debuffing 5% crit chance with the Lethargy red adorn, is not the same as giving your raid force 5% crit mit. Crit mit affects the crit multiplier, not the chance of a crit occuring. <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/38236-crit-mit.html" target="_blank">link</a> <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/berserkers/62142-your-thoughts-crit-mit.html" target="_blank">link</a><img src="http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z127/BCBYR/EQ2/EQ2Flames%20Files/CriticalDebuffsonMob.jpg" />Since the OP was asking about red adorns only, the crit bonus reduction AA discussion should be on a separate thread. Although, comparing a 5% "crit chance" reduction red adorn, to 20% "auto-attack damage reduction" red adorn, might be possible.One way to look at the Lamenting Soul red adorn is it decreases the damage of 100% of melee attacks by 20%, as opposed to the Lethargy red adorn decreasing the mob's chance to crit on 5% of total attacks. It's important to state that many raiders are using resist jewelry with crit mit, and Tier 2-3 gear with crit mit, to avoid critical attacks all together, and many tanks have avoidance high enough to avoid most melee attacks as well, so both these adornments might not be as valuable to the high end raiders. However, when a melee hit does land, or a player is under geared for a fight, then both these adorns really can make a difference.It seems to me that without the Lamenting Soul red adornment equipped, quite a bit more damage comes out of a mob's auto attack when it lands. For example, the Mastered Lamenting Soul debuff is -38.8% to auto attack hit damage, and with the red adornment it is -58.8% to auto attack hit damage. For sake of argument, lets say a mob's non-critical auto attack hits for 10,000 per hit after a tank's mitigation is calculated, and when the auto-attack hits are debuffed by Lamenting Soul, they go down to 6,120. If you equip a red adorn to amp Lamenting Soul, a 10,000 point non-critical auto attack would then be debuffed further, down to 4,120. So every time the mob hits the MT with a auto attack, the red adorn would save the MT 2,000 points of wards or health lost. If the mob AE auto attacks, flurries, or double attacks, then the damage saved on the MT, and others nearby, is even higher.If your raid is taking crit hits due to lack of crit mit, then I assume the damage saved from adorning with the Lethargy red adorn could be significant, but it only affects 5% of the attacks. We would need to add up all the theoretical damage saved on the MT from Lamenting Soul being amped by a red adorn, and compare it to the theoretical damage saved from 5% of critical attacks on the entire raid, if they are getting hit with crit attacks at all, and also take a look at when the AEs and Auto Attack lined up, and then figure out which is better for your particular raid force. I got a feeling the damage saved on the MT 100% of the time he got hit with an auto attack would add up over an entire fight, and make the choice more obvious, at least for the MT and his healers. After debuffs are applied, I usually see a damage spread between 2000-9000 damage per auto attack hit depending on the hard mode boss. AEs can hit for up to 30,000. If you get unlucky and a auto attack and AE hit at the same time while you are trying to get wards back up, and the MT goes down, then the mob might frontal the raid killing everyone. It really depends on the mob, player skill level, and gear level of the raid. If the raid is lacking crit mit, and getting one shotted from crit AEs, then I would adorn both the Lamenting Soul and Lethargy red adorns to be honest, and also get the Bolster red adorn. Bolster is like a big regen ward if you can keep your tank in the green, so making it last longer has a nice HPS value. If you spec a certain way in the Mystic tree you can increase the mitigation, and critical mitigation levels, of the toon that has Bolster as well. Torpor and maybe the Priest Stance adornment can be swapped for Lethargy and Lamenting Soul red adorns. If the raid had crit mit high enough to avoid critical attacks, (you can use resist jewlery to get above the crit mit threshold if you have lower tier armor,) then the Lethargy red adorn is pretty much useless, and the Lamenting Soul red adorn might be preferred.

Banditman

09-22-2010, 09:43 AM

They are effectively the same thing.Crit Mit works thusly:Every mob has a set crit multiplier. For some it is 1.3, other may be 1.5, I've heard some mobs even exceed 2.0. It's really not relevant. A player would call that crit multiplier Crit Bonus. How much bonus does your crit give you.Crit Mit works by reducing this multiplier, reducing a mob's crit bonus if you will. Let's say I have 30% crit mit, and I'm fighting a mob with a crit multiplier (crit bonus) of 1.3. When that mob crits his attack against me, my critical mitigation is subtracted from the mob's crit multiplier. Thus, with 30% crit mit reducing the mob's multiplier to 1.0 . . . in other words, in effective reality, the mob never crits me.The same is true of both debuffs.One reduces the chance of a crit occuring, one reduces the multiplier. In effect, you reduce the chance of a crit by 10% (ok, statistically it works out slightly differently). It may work out to a little more or a little less than 10%, it simply isn't important to consider given the overall effect.I can tell you this, those two choices are far more important in reducing the overall damage output of a mob than 20% applied only to auto attack damage.

Arcanemundi

09-23-2010, 05:16 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>...The same is true of both debuffs.One reduces the chance of a crit occuring, one reduces the multiplier. In effect, you reduce the chance of a crit by 10% (ok, statistically it works out slightly differently). It may work out to a little more or a little less than 10%, it simply isn't important to consider given the overall effect.</blockquote>The only way this would be remotely possible is if difficult raid mobs had a 50% crit rate or lower. Unfortunately, most harder raid bosses have 85% or higher crit rates according to parses I've looked at, and that is after crit rate debuffs are applied. So, at realistic stat levels, there is a significant difference between debuffing crit bonus, as opposed to crit chance. Here is a hypothetical model:Your Crit Mit is at 100% (Not hard to get to with SF T1&T2 gear and/or resist jewelery)Mob Crit Multiplier 2.10 (Typical for medium to hard mobs)Average NON-Critical Hit is 10,000 pointsAverage Critical Hit is 11,000 pointsFYI: Mob has 100% Crit Chance, and will crit for 10% more damage when criting than normal crits due to multiplier, and your 100% crit mit gear level. (2.10-1.00 = 1.10 crit multiplier)You Debuff for 5% crit chance:Out of 100 attacks for 10,000 points, you get hit 95 times with critical damage.Total Single Target Inc Damage without debuff: 1,100,000Total Single Target Inc Damage with debuff: 50,000 non-critical damage & 1,045,000 critical damage = 1,095,0001,100,000-1,095,000= 5,000 damage saved on a single player over 100 attacks.By debuffing 5% crit chance you save your toon or raid 0.45% damage.You Debuff for 5% crit Bonus:Out of 100 attacks for 10,000 points, you get hit 100 times with critical damage.Single Target Inc Damage without debuff: 1,100,000Single Target Inc Damage with debuff: 1,050,000 Total Damage.1,100,000-1,050,000= 50,000 damage saved on a single player over 100 attacks. By debuffing 5% crit bonus you save your toon or raid 4.5% damage.Conclusion:At 100% Crit Mit5% Crit Chance Debuff = 0.45% damage reduction5% Crit Bonus Debuff = 4.5% damage reductionIn this example, a 5% crit bonus debuff is ten times more potent than a 5% crit chance debuff. If you add them together the sum of the two debuffs is equivalent to only 5% crit mit, not ten. Although, the less crit mit you have or the higher the mob's multiplier is, the less there is a difference between the two debuffs. That is why I recommended both effects in a spec if a Mystic's guild is just starting out raiding SF. At the lowest possible SF raiding crit mit levels the ratios are not below 3 to 1, and you never achieve higher than a 5% crit mit equivalent effect with both effects cast on a raid mob. That is why you can not add the two of them together and just say they are like 10% crit mit. The two debuffs are very different, and do not have the same damage avoidance potential at all.

Banditman

10-06-2010, 05:56 PM

You've screwed something up somewhere, I've tried to find it, I can't.Here is a simpler model:Mob hits for 500 to 1500 per hit, or 1000 average at base. Mob has a crit rate (chance) of 50%, crit multiplier of 50% (1.5). No debuffs, mob would hit as follows: 50 hits at 1000, 50 hits at 2250 = 50000 + 112500 or 162500 damage.Reduce crit rate by 5%: (Lethargy Red Adorn)55 hits at 1000, 45 hits at 2250 = 55000 + 101250 or 156250 damage. Total damage reduction = 4% (and some change)Reduce crit bonus by 5%: (Deteriorate AA)50 hits at 1000, 50 hits at 2175 = 50000 + 108750 or 158750 damage. Total damage reduction = 3% (and some change)Both together:55 hits at 1000, 45 hits at 2175 = 55000 + 97875 or 152875 damage. Total damage reduction = 6% (and some change)The value of reducing the crit chance of a mob extends beyond the actual reduction in chance in that it also reduces the number of maximum hits the mob gets. Even if you reduce his crit bonus to zero (which is what the AA and crit mit do), you still get hit for the maximum end of the mob's damage spectrum.This is why you see that both reductions together don't yield what you would expect as the additive result. The crit bonus reduction loses effectiveness as the mob crits less often.Thus, the red adornment that reduces the chance of a mob crit'ing at all (Lethargy) is far more valuable than either the Deteriorate AA or an adornment that simply takes a little extra edge off auto attack (Lamenting).

Gahnand

10-06-2010, 09:00 PM

since you have over 9000 seals to play with, just go buy the ones you want to try and see what sticks. I've tried both the lethargy and lamenting soul ones and honestly felt like I was getting more bang for my buck with others. add to that list the sentry one is completely pointless since it doesn't stack with the AA (which btw is obviously better cuz of the hp and mit). i prefer no aa points and no red adorn, but that's just me. doing the math on something like this is pretty pointless since we really have no way of locking down so many unknown variables. The 5% crit chance reduction is pointless if the mob has 200% crit chance. The DPS mod is without question going to come in handy for fights like XYZ; however, it depends on what you are exchanging it for. I was using it over the bolster one, but went back to bolster after a few weeks cuz I use the AA for extra mit and c/m. also, once your potency is at or above 80%, I would drop the prophetic ward red adorn. It's a great adorn, but you won't encounter any fights that will consume all of the ward once your potency is that high on its own.

Gahnand

10-06-2010, 09:04 PM

Arcanemundi

10-07-2010, 08:31 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mob has a crit rate (chance) of 50%, crit multiplier of 50% (1.5). </blockquote>All raid mobs I have checked have a crit chance of 89% or higher, and a crit multiplier of 2.0 to 2.3. Like I said before, it is unrealistic to use such low crit rates and multipliers for SF mobs, and doing this distorts your math.