PVP is now ruled by PVE [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Xiotia

09-09-2010, 12:30 PM

You know, I honestly do not understand this argument, maybe you can enlighten me. You claim there is nothing unique about the PVP server, everything you have the PVE servers have. This is true to my understanding, everything on PVE can be found on the PVP server; however, what we PVE servers lack is open world PVP and warfields. Isn't open world PVP what defines the PVP server? Why should anything else be special? I understand that you need a different set of armor for PVP combat, but now players on PVE also engage in PVP via Battlegrounds and deserve the opportunity to earn equipment that will allow them a fair advantage too. Furthermore, how does it affect the PVP server if PVE players receive some equipment, except in Battlegrounds? We aren't removing it from your server. It's still usable and useful in your server. You still have your risk and your rewards. I just don't understand how a person on another server getting something affects your game play on your server. The only time you ever go against or have interaction with people on the PVE servers is in battlegrounds, and the same way another player in open world PVP has the opportunity to gain good gear, we in BG will have that opportunity. Hence, the only reason we can conceive that some PVPers would want to refuse us that gear is so you can have an advantage in BGs just because you are from a PVP server - That is ridiculous. The problem would make more sense to us if you made claims that Battlegrounds is making it too easy for pvp players to get good gear and removing challenge from the pvp server instead. Which I can understand, and if that is the case Battlegrounds is the problem for pvp servers and not pve servers getting the same gear. Unfortunately, Battlegrounds are a big hit and a lot of people like them. So if the latter is the problem the devs really need to find another solution besides gear to reward pvp players for open world PVP. Currently, the argument that some PVPers are making (not allowing PVEers the same gear), is asking for an easy mode where PVEers get shafted in Battlegrounds and PVPers get an advantage. Is this what you are asking for? Seriously, I'm curious as to the rational, because I do not see any other legitimacy behind this argument.

Aleste

09-09-2010, 01:50 PM

<cite>Xiotia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know, I honestly do not understand this argument, maybe you can enlighten me. You claim there is nothing unique about the PVP server, everything you have the PVE servers have. This is true to my understanding, everything on PVE can be found on the PVP server; however, what we PVE servers lack is open world PVP and warfields. Isn't open world PVP what defines the PVP server? Why should anything else be special? I understand that you need a different set of armor for PVP combat, but now players on PVE also engage in PVP via Battlegrounds and deserve the opportunity to earn equipment that will allow them a fair advantage too. Furthermore, how does it affect the PVP server if PVE players receive some equipment, except in Battlegrounds? We aren't removing it from your server. It's still usable and useful in your server. You still have your risk and your rewards. I just don't understand how a person on another server getting something affects your game play on your server. The only time you ever go against or have interaction with people on the PVE servers is in battlegrounds, and the same way another player in open world PVP has the opportunity to gain good gear, we in BG will have that opportunity. Hence, the only reason we can conceive that some PVPers would want to refuse us that gear is so you can have an advantage in BGs just because you are from a PVP server - That is ridiculous. The problem would make more sense to us if you made claims that Battlegrounds is making it too easy for pvp players to get good gear and removing challenge from the pvp server instead. Which I can understand, and if that is the case Battlegrounds is the problem for pvp servers and not pve servers getting the same gear. Unfortunately, Battlegrounds are a big hit and a lot of people like them. So if the latter is the problem the devs really need to find another solution besides gear to reward pvp players for open world PVP. Currently, the argument that some PVPers are making (not allowing PVEers the same gear), is asking for an easy mode where PVEers get shafted in Battlegrounds and PVPers get an advantage. Is this what you are asking for? Seriously, I'm curious as to the rational, because I do not see any other legitimacy behind this argument. </blockquote>Ok I did not start this post but ill try to enlighten you. Well since the release of bg and wf pvp servers have taken a big hit in playstyle. Our "openworld" pvp has suffrered and been pushed more and more into instanced pvp. The unique rewards which in part gave our playstyle its life can now be obtained by queing into an instanced version of pvp. The main diffrence in pvp and pve rewards were as such; If you (pve) and want a piece of gear you grind a zone to get it. We (pvp) grind pvp writs to obtain our gear. It use to cater to people actualy going out and pvping to some extent to get the gear they wanted. Most pvpers could care less if the gear they obtain on pvp server was useable in bgs long as we have a viable outlet for openworld pvp. Seriously the pve items can be found on pvp servers is a moot point we play on a pve+ pvp ruleset we have the regular game plus. So logicaly we should have more options when it comes to gear. If you have played on pvp servers you would know all the pure bull we have endured over the years.But since most pver's only incite into pvp is bg they really have no idea. When people on pvp servers say hey this is broken look into it please we get no replys and classes stay broken for months on end. When we say hey give us back the fame system it makes people pvp more we get scilence. Life on a pvp server is hard (well it use to be) it really brings out peoples competive nature. The prices for even low quality items are high, things you would take advantage of on pve servers are outrageously priced on pvp servers. Alot of people are generaly unhelpfull since you can betray and become the enemy in a moments notice. There are gankers, twinks and baby kickers at every turn (again it use to be this way). But the rewards use to be worth it. Do not take the handfull of pvp players you see in bg and think "they want an advantage in bg's" Cause its far from the truth we want open pvp thats what we signed up for. But when noone has motivation to search for openworld because bg and wf killed it we que up for bg. At least we get to fight something thats not a mob in bg.In closing, If there were Sf sets like the Tso/Rok sets useable in pvp and pve (since we do play both playstyles on our server) You would quickly see the decline in pvpers in bg's and alot more activity in openworld pvp.(for the sake of all thats holy fix pvp already so many threads asking for the old fame system and decent pvp gear the copy paste is getting old.)

Darkor

09-09-2010, 02:06 PM

With BGs came Toughness, with toughness came the end of fun in pvp so yeah, bg ruined our server.

asaron

09-09-2010, 02:17 PM

All we get on nagafen is if it aint blue its broked

Mary the Prophetess

09-09-2010, 02:31 PM

Aleste,Help me to understand this conundrum.*If* PvPers TRULY want open world PvP as you suggest, then they would not bother with BGs at all. Or even warfields for that matter.*If*, however, it is NOT open world PvP and challenge which motivates them but rather, a quicker easier way to obtain gear than the older more time consuming system, then they will choose that easier way.BGs and warfields are not mandatory participation events. If PvP players want what you claim they want, then BGs and WFs should not be an issue at all.Obviously, that is not the case, and so you do see an erosion of open world PvP by BGs and WFs.It seems apparent to me that what you claim PvP players want, and what PvP players actually do, are two different things.

Aleste

09-09-2010, 02:34 PM

Im curious as to why pvers think we shouldnt have our own gear.. long as the gear doesnt effect them in bg. We're not supposed to be mingling in bg's anyhow. Long long ago the excuse of "pvp and pve characters are coded diffrently" was use as a means to stop pvp to pve transfers and vice versa. Not having unique pvp gear is just an excuse for devs to be use the cut and paste mentality. Have you looked at t1 raid gear vrs bg gear? alot of the pieces look alot alike.. some of the sublime weapons too.On a side note.. fire the graphics devs at least the ones who make items 9 out of 10 of the "new items" use t7 or t8 skins. But the Sc items on the other hand look mostly brand new?

Aleste

09-09-2010, 02:44 PM

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aleste,Help me to understand this conundrum.*If* PvPers TRULY want open world PvP as you suggest, then they would not bother with BGs at all. Or even warfields for that matter.*If*, however, it is NOT open world PvP and challenge which motivates them but rather, a quicker easier way to obtain gear than the older more time consuming system, then they will choose that easier way.BGs and warfields are not mandatory participation events. If PvP players want what you claim they want, then BGs and WFs should not be an issue at all.Obviously, that is not the case, and so you do see an erosion of open world PvP by BGs and WFs.It seems apparent to me that what you claim PvP players want, and what PvP players actually do, are two different things.</blockquote>Ok i'll try to keep it simple here.. Pvp is about being competive. In the past before bg's and wf. In order to be competive you had to earn it by participating in open world pvp. But humans by nature find the fastest way to be competive hence queing up for bgs or afking at wfs. You have to be at your best on a pvp server experts/masters and mc gear till you get pvp gear. If the fastest way to get gear is bg/wf then some players will go that route to get it. This leads others to do it because if they dont they will be at a disadvantage in pvp.. Get it?

Mary the Prophetess

09-09-2010, 02:46 PM

Not to put too fine a point on it, PvE players really care nothing at all about whether or not PvP players have their own gear, or what kind of stats or effort is required to obtain it in order to PvP on your own servers.If you want gear with crit mitigation up the wazoo, then so be it. If you want a cloak of 100% in commbat run speed, then go for it.The *ONLY* thing PvE players want is the opportunity to obtain gear that puts them on a more equitable footing with PvP players when their paths cross in BGs.If, as has been asserted, PvP players *really* want open world PvP, then it stands to reason that they would all shun battlegrounds because it is NOT open world PvP.Such is not the case.If BGs are a threat to open world PvP, then it is because your own PvP players choose to participate in them. No PvE player is forcing you all away from open world PvP. You are doing it to yourselves.Remove PvP servers from BGs altogether and it would be a win/win situation for everyone involved.

Kota

09-09-2010, 02:46 PM

this forum has 114 pages. the oldest page being #114. the tears started on page #114.

Aleste

09-09-2010, 03:01 PM

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not to put too fine a point on it, PvE players really care nothing at all about whether or not PvP players have their own gear, or what kind of stats or effort is required to obtain it in order to PvP on your own servers.If you want gear with crit mitigation up the wazoo, then so be it. If you want a cloak of 100% in commbat run speed, then go for it.1. The *ONLY* thing PvE players want is the opportunity to obtain gear that puts them on a more equitable footing with PvP players when their paths cross in BGs.2. If, as has been asserted, PvP players *really* want open world PvP, then it stands to reason that they would all shun battlegrounds because it is NOT open world PvP.Such is not the case.3. If BGs are a threat to open world PvP, then it is because your own PvP players choose to participate in them. No PvE player is forcing you all away from open world PvP. You are doing it to yourselves.Remove PvP servers from BGs altogether and it would be a win/win situation for everyone involved.</blockquote>1. Are you listening? Give us our own gear and disable what makes it shine in bg's who cares.. if we have our own gear we have something to work at via open pvp.2. Sometimes its not about what you really want but what is a matter of progression.. (how many guilds really want to raid Toxx at this point but will they if a member needs gear there?). Bg/wf is the fastest way to progress in gear for pvpers.3. Woah I think I should stop before I get rude see comment one. And who said pve players are forcing us to do it?.. its more like Devs forcing us to chose the fast route of progression while not realizing hadning out gear so quickly is bad for pvp in general.as for the remove pvp servers from bgs.. wouldnt really have to if we had our own gear. Pvpers tend to go for whats better gear wise so we wouldnt bg untill we had full sets if we even did at that point. And if the effects were reduced in bg's to make it a standered bg gearset who would care?

Xiotia

09-09-2010, 03:10 PM

<cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xiotia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know, I honestly do not understand this argument, maybe you can enlighten me. You claim there is nothing unique about the PVP server, everything you have the PVE servers have. This is true to my understanding, everything on PVE can be found on the PVP server; however, what we PVE servers lack is open world PVP and warfields. Isn't open world PVP what defines the PVP server? Why should anything else be special? I understand that you need a different set of armor for PVP combat, but now players on PVE also engage in PVP via Battlegrounds and deserve the opportunity to earn equipment that will allow them a fair advantage too. Furthermore, how does it affect the PVP server if PVE players receive some equipment, except in Battlegrounds? We aren't removing it from your server. It's still usable and useful in your server. You still have your risk and your rewards. I just don't understand how a person on another server getting something affects your game play on your server. The only time you ever go against or have interaction with people on the PVE servers is in battlegrounds, and the same way another player in open world PVP has the opportunity to gain good gear, we in BG will have that opportunity. Hence, the only reason we can conceive that some PVPers would want to refuse us that gear is so you can have an advantage in BGs just because you are from a PVP server - That is ridiculous. The problem would make more sense to us if you made claims that Battlegrounds is making it too easy for pvp players to get good gear and removing challenge from the pvp server instead. Which I can understand, and if that is the case Battlegrounds is the problem for pvp servers and not pve servers getting the same gear. Unfortunately, Battlegrounds are a big hit and a lot of people like them. So if the latter is the problem the devs really need to find another solution besides gear to reward pvp players for open world PVP. Currently, the argument that some PVPers are making (not allowing PVEers the same gear), is asking for an easy mode where PVEers get shafted in Battlegrounds and PVPers get an advantage. Is this what you are asking for? Seriously, I'm curious as to the rational, because I do not see any other legitimacy behind this argument. </blockquote>Ok I did not start this post but ill try to enlighten you. Well since the release of bg and wf pvp servers have taken a big hit in playstyle. Our "openworld" pvp has suffrered and been pushed more and more into instanced pvp. The unique rewards which in part gave our playstyle its life can now be obtained by queing into an instanced version of pvp. The main diffrence in pvp and pve rewards were as such; If you (pve) and want a piece of gear you grind a zone to get it. We (pvp) grind pvp writs to obtain our gear. It use to cater to people actualy going out and pvping to some extent to get the gear they wanted. Most pvpers could care less if the gear they obtain on pvp server was useable in bgs long as we have a viable outlet for openworld pvp. Seriously the pve items can be found on pvp servers is a moot point we play on a pve+ pvp ruleset we have the regular game plus. So logicaly we should have more options when it comes to gear. If you have played on pvp servers you would know all the pure bull we have endured over the years.But since most pver's only incite into pvp is bg they really have no idea. When people on pvp servers say hey this is broken look into it please we get no replys and classes stay broken for months on end. When we say hey give us back the fame system it makes people pvp more we get scilence. Life on a pvp server is hard (well it use to be) it really brings out peoples competive nature. The prices for even low quality items are high, things you would take advantage of on pve servers are outrageously priced on pvp servers. Alot of people are generaly unhelpfull since you can betray and become the enemy in a moments notice. There are gankers, twinks and baby kickers at every turn (again it use to be this way). But the rewards use to be worth it. Do not take the handfull of pvp players you see in bg and think "they want an advantage in bg's" Cause its far from the truth we want open pvp thats what we signed up for. But when noone has motivation to search for openworld because bg and wf killed it we que up for bg. At least we get to fight something thats not a mob in bg.In closing, If there were Sf sets like the Tso/Rok sets useable in pvp and pve (since we do play both playstyles on our server) You would quickly see the decline in pvpers in bg's and alot more activity in openworld pvp.(for the sake of all thats holy fix pvp already so many threads asking for the old fame system and decent pvp gear the copy paste is getting old.)</blockquote>So I gather from your post, that Battlegrounds is the problem, not PVE players wanting gear to use in Battlegrounds. So why all the hatred to PVEers? Show us some love, we are just players too. It seems to me your beef should be with the Devs. Your closing statement makes sense.So: Ohilin, I see that spells have PVP/PVE differences so why can't armor have PVP/PVE differences so that PVP players can PVP and PVE at the same time on their server? I understand raid gear can destroy a person in pvp without toughness, but giving them a little toughness to offset this maybe. Just an idea.

Aleste

09-09-2010, 03:33 PM

<cite>Xiotia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xiotia@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know, I honestly do not understand this argument, maybe you can enlighten me. You claim there is nothing unique about the PVP server, everything you have the PVE servers have. This is true to my understanding, everything on PVE can be found on the PVP server; however, what we PVE servers lack is open world PVP and warfields. Isn't open world PVP what defines the PVP server? Why should anything else be special? I understand that you need a different set of armor for PVP combat, but now players on PVE also engage in PVP via Battlegrounds and deserve the opportunity to earn equipment that will allow them a fair advantage too. Furthermore, how does it affect the PVP server if PVE players receive some equipment, except in Battlegrounds? We aren't removing it from your server. It's still usable and useful in your server. You still have your risk and your rewards. I just don't understand how a person on another server getting something affects your game play on your server. The only time you ever go against or have interaction with people on the PVE servers is in battlegrounds, and the same way another player in open world PVP has the opportunity to gain good gear, we in BG will have that opportunity. Hence, the only reason we can conceive that some PVPers would want to refuse us that gear is so you can have an advantage in BGs just because you are from a PVP server - That is ridiculous. The problem would make more sense to us if you made claims that Battlegrounds is making it too easy for pvp players to get good gear and removing challenge from the pvp server instead. Which I can understand, and if that is the case Battlegrounds is the problem for pvp servers and not pve servers getting the same gear. Unfortunately, Battlegrounds are a big hit and a lot of people like them. So if the latter is the problem the devs really need to find another solution besides gear to reward pvp players for open world PVP. Currently, the argument that some PVPers are making (not allowing PVEers the same gear), is asking for an easy mode where PVEers get shafted in Battlegrounds and PVPers get an advantage. Is this what you are asking for? Seriously, I'm curious as to the rational, because I do not see any other legitimacy behind this argument. </blockquote>Ok I did not start this post but ill try to enlighten you. Well since the release of bg and wf pvp servers have taken a big hit in playstyle. Our "openworld" pvp has suffrered and been pushed more and more into instanced pvp. The unique rewards which in part gave our playstyle its life can now be obtained by queing into an instanced version of pvp. The main diffrence in pvp and pve rewards were as such; If you (pve) and want a piece of gear you grind a zone to get it. We (pvp) grind pvp writs to obtain our gear. It use to cater to people actualy going out and pvping to some extent to get the gear they wanted. Most pvpers could care less if the gear they obtain on pvp server was useable in bgs long as we have a viable outlet for openworld pvp. Seriously the pve items can be found on pvp servers is a moot point we play on a pve+ pvp ruleset we have the regular game plus. So logicaly we should have more options when it comes to gear. If you have played on pvp servers you would know all the pure bull we have endured over the years.But since most pver's only incite into pvp is bg they really have no idea. When people on pvp servers say hey this is broken look into it please we get no replys and classes stay broken for months on end. When we say hey give us back the fame system it makes people pvp more we get scilence. Life on a pvp server is hard (well it use to be) it really brings out peoples competive nature. The prices for even low quality items are high, things you would take advantage of on pve servers are outrageously priced on pvp servers. Alot of people are generaly unhelpfull since you can betray and become the enemy in a moments notice. There are gankers, twinks and baby kickers at every turn (again it use to be this way). But the rewards use to be worth it. Do not take the handfull of pvp players you see in bg and think "they want an advantage in bg's" Cause its far from the truth we want open pvp thats what we signed up for. But when noone has motivation to search for openworld because bg and wf killed it we que up for bg. At least we get to fight something thats not a mob in bg.In closing, If there were Sf sets like the Tso/Rok sets useable in pvp and pve (since we do play both playstyles on our server) You would quickly see the decline in pvpers in bg's and alot more activity in openworld pvp.(for the sake of all thats holy fix pvp already so many threads asking for the old fame system and decent pvp gear the copy paste is getting old.)</blockquote>So I gather from your post, that Battlegrounds is the problem, not PVE players wanting gear to use in Battlegrounds. So why all the hatred to PVEers? Show us some love, we are just players too. It seems to me your beef should be with the Devs. Your closing statement makes sense.So: Ohilin, I see that spells have PVP/PVE differences so why can't armor have PVP/PVE differences so that PVP players can PVP and PVE at the same time on their server? I understand raid gear can destroy a person in pvp without toughness, but giving them a little toughness to offset this maybe. Just an idea. </blockquote>Exactly. As it stands we have no unique gear and it degrades our playstyle. Currently there is two way to obtain the exact same items. One is go pvp/wf which takes alot longer due to lack of pvp targets. Or two que up for Bg's and get the same gear faster. Im sure you can guess which path most people take. It is a necessity to have pvp gear on a pvp server so people are forced into the path of least resistance. If we had our own gear set even if its effects were dissabled in bg's there would be alot more pvp on the pvp servers because we would have something to work towards. I have no hate for pve players I think the whole pvp vrs pve players mentality is a bit lame. Im just saying all we have for pvp progression can be obtained in a week bging. Between the lack of unique gear, the borked fame system and lack of pvp targets (partly because after a few people got full toughness gear and realized noone can kill each other in it so they quit the game). There is nothing left of our servers... I see more guilds worried about raid progression and less guild vrs guild pvp rivalries.When it comes to gear ill put it in terms of raiding. If you kill a mob and it drops a full set of endgame gear for everyone in your raid what happens next raid day? there is no linear progression for pvp. the gear is a give away and the title system is a joke that penalizes you for logging off. Old pvp gear cost 300 tokens per piece at 5 tokens per writ but was unique and worth while to attain. It took just as long (or longer) to get a full set as it did to get a raid set thats why it was as good as it was. We have nothing like that now and noone likes to play a mmo without a means to improve their character.Getting level 90 is easy 250aa you can max a toon and have full pvp gear in under two weeks if you play enough. What im asking for is empathy we all play the same game. I know alot of people have quit due to lack of content.. Take a look at what us on pvp servers have for content (for our playstyle).

Zacarus

09-09-2010, 03:50 PM

<cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>this forum has 114 pages. the oldest page being #114. the tears started on page #114.</blockquote>Good comment ... so true.

BlueEternal

09-09-2010, 03:53 PM

<cite>Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>this forum has 114 pages. the oldest page being #114. the tears started on page #114.</blockquote>Good comment ... so true.</blockquote>Except the tears started way before we even got these new forums! Actually..no they didn't because PvP wasn't terrible back then..

Sprin

09-09-2010, 08:48 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>With BGs came Toughness, with toughness came the end of fun in pvp so yeah, bg ruined our server.</blockquote>LOL you guys just dont quit.... makes me giggle..This isn't a post about toughness, its a post about the fact that Oilhin himself has said in the past that Openworld PVP was given (IE: CHANGED) the same ruleset and same gear as BG's to make it easier for PVE'rs to switch to a PVP server if they want, without it being "confusing" for them once they do... THe confusion coming from a different ruleset and set of gear on a pvp server to that of BGs...Now the problem is that any and all gear that PVP'rs want / need for openworld PVP has to go through A.) its nerfing period to work in BG's B.) its bluebie carebare crybaby approval phase.. which never will happenRemember at the end of TSO when a few PVP items that were identical to Raid gear were introduced for crazy amount of Tokens? You think we will ever see that again? Hell no, because the crybaby bluebies (oh and all the bluebie crybabies that unfortunately raid on our server) would cry so much that it would never go through... "But but but... they didnt kill a scripted mob for 20 minutes to get that gear!!! They didnt ""EARN"" it by using ACT and rinsing / repeating the same thing over and over... WHAAAA!! TAKE IT AWAY!!!" -love Crybaby RaidersSo we as PVP'rs can never get anything unique to PVP as we saw in ROK days, because the bluebies cry too much that they are confused in BG's because they cant figure out how to time their attacks to kill PVP'rs with ACT.Now with the fusion of PVE servers and PVP servers with BG's... PVP mechanics and gear are altered to fit the bluebies version of PVP

Mary the Prophetess

09-09-2010, 09:40 PM

As I said, the best solution would to be to remove battlegrounds from PvP servers entirely. Keep BGs for PvE servers where they seem to be popular, but remove them from PvP servers where the players are 'forced' to participate in order to be competitive in open world PvP. Then the PvP servers will have all the open world PvP that they have always had (sic).

thephantomposter

09-10-2010, 12:00 AM

<cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aleste,Help me to understand this conundrum.*If* PvPers TRULY want open world PvP as you suggest, then they would not bother with BGs at all. Or even warfields for that matter.*If*, however, it is NOT open world PvP and challenge which motivates them but rather, a quicker easier way to obtain gear than the older more time consuming system, then they will choose that easier way.BGs and warfields are not mandatory participation events. If PvP players want what you claim they want, then BGs and WFs should not be an issue at all.Obviously, that is not the case, and so you do see an erosion of open world PvP by BGs and WFs.It seems apparent to me that what you claim PvP players want, and what PvP players actually do, are two different things.</blockquote>Ok i'll try to keep it simple here.. Pvp is about being competive. In the past before bg's and wf. In order to be competive you had to earn it by participating in open world pvp. But humans by nature find the fastest way to be competive hence queing up for bgs or afking at wfs. You have to be at your best on a pvp server experts/masters and mc gear till you get pvp gear. If the fastest way to get gear is bg/wf then some players will go that route to get it. This leads others to do it because if they dont they will be at a disadvantage in pvp.. Get it?</blockquote>Bingo!!!!

Sprin

09-10-2010, 12:23 AM

<cite>thephantomposter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aleste,Help me to understand this conundrum.*If* PvPers TRULY want open world PvP as you suggest, then they would not bother with BGs at all. Or even warfields for that matter.*If*, however, it is NOT open world PvP and challenge which motivates them but rather, a quicker easier way to obtain gear than the older more time consuming system, then they will choose that easier way.BGs and warfields are not mandatory participation events. If PvP players want what you claim they want, then BGs and WFs should not be an issue at all.Obviously, that is not the case, and so you do see an erosion of open world PvP by BGs and WFs.It seems apparent to me that what you claim PvP players want, and what PvP players actually do, are two different things.</blockquote>Ok i'll try to keep it simple here.. Pvp is about being competive. In the past before bg's and wf. In order to be competive you had to earn it by participating in open world pvp. But humans by nature find the fastest way to be competive hence queing up for bgs or afking at wfs. You have to be at your best on a pvp server experts/masters and mc gear till you get pvp gear. If the fastest way to get gear is bg/wf then some players will go that route to get it. This leads others to do it because if they dont they will be at a disadvantage in pvp.. Get it?</blockquote>Bingo!!!!</blockquote>You say fastest way to get gear is "wf"... but its not, its PVP'ng during a WF... the myth that "going afk at WF" is a fast way to gear is hogwash... see my other post with the math regarding "going afk at a WF"... it would take a lvl 90 6 months to get a full set of gear doing that 6 hours a night... so learn to exagerate less TBH...The truth is WF's bring people to PVP together at one central location... whereas before the newbs picked the hotspot (SS docks, KP docks, Lava Docks, EL docks) anyone? Now the hotspots are controled by the server... and there is a goal in mind... and a reward for PVP'ng... imagine that!! people get rewarded for PVE'ng all day long but when you get rewarded for PVP'ng, on a PVP server mind you... people throw a fit.. Did BG's ruin openworld pvp? yup, sure did... did WF's? nope, not at all... but everyone likes to lump them together just because they share gear... WF's were an attempt at a band-aid to fix the BG wound that will never get fixed without ridding BG access from PVP servers... actually without WF's and if only BG's existed, there would be 0 open world PVP.. at least we get some now with WF's...People who have lots of PVP gear PVP alot... im talking about lvl 90, lower then that and its just leeching off 90's anyways, so not much point in talking about anything but 90 PVP TBH...

Aleste

09-10-2010, 12:24 PM

<cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thephantomposter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aleste,Help me to understand this conundrum.*If* PvPers TRULY want open world PvP as you suggest, then they would not bother with BGs at all. Or even warfields for that matter.*If*, however, it is NOT open world PvP and challenge which motivates them but rather, a quicker easier way to obtain gear than the older more time consuming system, then they will choose that easier way.BGs and warfields are not mandatory participation events. If PvP players want what you claim they want, then BGs and WFs should not be an issue at all.Obviously, that is not the case, and so you do see an erosion of open world PvP by BGs and WFs.It seems apparent to me that what you claim PvP players want, and what PvP players actually do, are two different things.</blockquote>Ok i'll try to keep it simple here.. Pvp is about being competive. In the past before bg's and wf. In order to be competive you had to earn it by participating in open world pvp. But humans by nature find the fastest way to be competive hence queing up for bgs or afking at wfs. You have to be at your best on a pvp server experts/masters and mc gear till you get pvp gear. If the fastest way to get gear is bg/wf then some players will go that route to get it. This leads others to do it because if they dont they will be at a disadvantage in pvp.. Get it?</blockquote>Bingo!!!!</blockquote>You say fastest way to get gear is "wf"... but its not, its PVP'ng during a WF... the myth that "going afk at WF" is a fast way to gear is hogwash... see my other post with the math regarding "going afk at a WF"... it would take a lvl 90 6 months to get a full set of gear doing that 6 hours a night... so learn to exagerate less TBH...The truth is WF's bring people to PVP together at one central location... whereas before the newbs picked the hotspot (SS docks, KP docks, Lava Docks, EL docks) anyone? Now the hotspots are controled by the server... and there is a goal in mind... and a reward for PVP'ng... imagine that!! people get rewarded for PVE'ng all day long but when you get rewarded for PVP'ng, on a PVP server mind you... people throw a fit.. Did BG's ruin openworld pvp? yup, sure did... did WF's? nope, not at all... but everyone likes to lump them together just because they share gear... WF's were an attempt at a band-aid to fix the BG wound that will never get fixed without ridding BG access from PVP servers... actually without WF's and if only BG's existed, there would be 0 open world PVP.. at least we get some now with WF's...People who have lots of PVP gear PVP alot... im talking about lvl 90, lower then that and its just leeching off 90's anyways, so not much point in talking about anything but 90 PVP TBH...</blockquote>Any form of instanced pvp with rewards ruins open world pvp... wf is a zerg with objectives. People who have lots of PVP gear PVP alot... im talking about lvl 90. A full set of "pvp" gear can be "earned" in a week or under, And im talking about level 90 also thats the only teir I play in. You can que up in between wf's and gear grind quite quickly if you choose to. I have a full set of bg/pvp gear for my swash and after seeing the direction "pvp" is going I deleted the gear and joined a raid guild lol.

Neskonlith

09-10-2010, 12:59 PM

<cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote>Any form of instanced pvp with rewards ruins open world pvp...I have a full set of bg/pvp gear for my swash and after seeing the direction "pvp" is going I deleted the gear and joined a raid guild lol.</blockquote>Any form of instanced PVE with rewards ruins open world PVP... All you did was snub one instance for another.

Duotang

09-10-2010, 01:29 PM

<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aleste,Help me to understand this conundrum.*If* PvPers TRULY want open world PvP as you suggest, then they would not bother with BGs at all. Or even warfields for that matter.*If*, however, it is NOT open world PvP and challenge which motivates them but rather, a quicker easier way to obtain gear than the older more time consuming system, then they will choose that easier way.BGs and warfields are not mandatory participation events. If PvP players want what you claim they want, then BGs and WFs should not be an issue at all.Obviously, that is not the case, and so you do see an erosion of open world PvP by BGs and WFs.It seems apparent to me that what you claim PvP players want, and what PvP players actually do, are two different things.</blockquote>This is a beautiful post. Absolutely bang-on.Just an fyi to the op; I had a 1v1 the other day (level 90 toons) in open world pvp. The fight lasted roughly 10 minutes, and it was completely exhilarating , plain and simple.

Wigg

09-10-2010, 01:53 PM

<cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>With BGs came Toughness, with toughness came the end of fun in pvp so yeah, bg ruined our server.</blockquote>LOL you guys just dont quit.... makes me giggle..This isn't a post about toughness, its a post about the fact that Oilhin himself has said in the past that Openworld PVP was given (IE: CHANGED) the same ruleset and same gear as BG's to make it easier for PVE'rs to switch to a PVP server if they want, without it being "confusing" for them once they do... THe confusion coming from a different ruleset and set of gear on a pvp server to that of BGs...Now the problem is that any and all gear that PVP'rs want / need for openworld PVP has to go through A.) its nerfing period to work in BG's B.) its bluebie carebare crybaby approval phase.. which never will happenRemember at the end of TSO when a few PVP items that were identical to Raid gear were introduced for crazy amount of Tokens? You think we will ever see that again? Hell no, because the crybaby bluebies (oh and all the bluebie crybabies that unfortunately raid on our server) would cry so much that it would never go through... "But but but... they didnt kill a scripted mob for 20 minutes to get that gear!!! They didnt ""EARN"" it by using ACT and rinsing / repeating the same thing over and over... WHAAAA!! TAKE IT AWAY!!!" -love Crybaby RaidersSo we as PVP'rs can never get anything unique to PVP as we saw in ROK days, because the bluebies cry too much that they are confused in BG's because they cant figure out how to time their attacks to kill PVP'rs with ACT.Now with the fusion of PVE servers and PVP servers with BG's... PVP mechanics and gear are altered to fit the bluebies version of PVP</blockquote>Your 12 right? I honestly did not care about what was on the pvp server till BGs came out. I knew they had better gear on the merchants, but while it didn't make sense why, it didn't affect me. Now, it does. If BGs had popped up last expansion, there would be people complaining about the 80 sets and people like you saying "that's our gear leave it alone." But last expansion, how many guilds could kill Gynok? Anashti? Zarrakon? Ykesha? 2 per server maybe? You had gear on those merchant's equivalent to gear that took months of going after to POSSIBLY get the item you wanted. It took our guild killing Zarrakon for over 1 month for my shoulders to finally drop. And that was 1 month of killing him, not included the time we pulled. In pvp, you die, no problem. Rinse and repeat till you kill the guy/guys who got you and bam there is your update move on. No repair bills, no debt, no nothing for a pvp death (if you mention losing your plat, learn to bank and /delete your toon now for not doing that before). Your server has the option to get BOTH sets of gear/jewelry and were even assisted by being able to get crit mit for not raiding. During TSO the stone skin rings stacked. If you faced a raider who also had the pvp version they were proccing stone skins 40% of the time with a power proc AND [Removed for Content] good stats on the rings.Do you know how over powered a character I could make for 80 BGs on your server? Combine raiding with pvp sets/gear and I would literally have a character that could take on a x2 of people in smugglers. This is the reason people are upset and asking for something to be done.Now, I am sorry that pve has affected pvp honestly I wish it wouldn't. But can you honestly say that while you have 2 paths to get gear we only have 1 for BGs? Raid gear has no toughness and if you go into BGs with T3 (lvl 90) on, you melt. That's not the way it should be. Is it fair that the top raid guilds on your server have to have 2 sets of gear, one challengers other raid set to take out contested because they might get jumped before pull? Heck, tanks on your server have 3 full sets they should be carrying at all times.All PVE wants is equality when taking on people on a cross server match. And before I end, if you come on here and say, (cue sarcasm)"Well he has more AAs, give us all 250 AAs." Or, "He can heal, I want to be able to do that." Those are completely different than what pve has been asking of lower tier BGs. You want to heal, use your healer. You want to have AAs, go grind or quest. You want gear, The answer should be EARN it. <<-- That option is not available at all tiers and thats the only complaint I have seen from pve players.

Aleste

09-10-2010, 02:12 PM

<cite>Wigg@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>With BGs came Toughness, with toughness came the end of fun in pvp so yeah, bg ruined our server.</blockquote>LOL you guys just dont quit.... makes me giggle..This isn't a post about toughness, its a post about the fact that Oilhin himself has said in the past that Openworld PVP was given (IE: CHANGED) the same ruleset and same gear as BG's to make it easier for PVE'rs to switch to a PVP server if they want, without it being "confusing" for them once they do... THe confusion coming from a different ruleset and set of gear on a pvp server to that of BGs...Now the problem is that any and all gear that PVP'rs want / need for openworld PVP has to go through A.) its nerfing period to work in BG's B.) its bluebie carebare crybaby approval phase.. which never will happenRemember at the end of TSO when a few PVP items that were identical to Raid gear were introduced for crazy amount of Tokens? You think we will ever see that again? Hell no, because the crybaby bluebies (oh and all the bluebie crybabies that unfortunately raid on our server) would cry so much that it would never go through... "But but but... they didnt kill a scripted mob for 20 minutes to get that gear!!! They didnt ""EARN"" it by using ACT and rinsing / repeating the same thing over and over... WHAAAA!! TAKE IT AWAY!!!" -love Crybaby RaidersSo we as PVP'rs can never get anything unique to PVP as we saw in ROK days, because the bluebies cry too much that they are confused in BG's because they cant figure out how to time their attacks to kill PVP'rs with ACT.Now with the fusion of PVE servers and PVP servers with BG's... PVP mechanics and gear are altered to fit the bluebies version of PVP</blockquote>Your 12 right? I honestly did not care about what was on the pvp server till BGs came out. I knew they had better gear on the merchants, but while it didn't make sense why, it didn't affect me. Now, it does. If BGs had popped up last expansion, there would be people complaining about the 80 sets and people like you saying "that's our gear leave it alone." But last expansion, how many guilds could kill Gynok? Anashti? Zarrakon? Ykesha? 2 per server maybe? You had gear on those merchant's equivalent to gear that took months of going after to POSSIBLY get the item you wanted. It took our guild killing Zarrakon for over 1 month for my shoulders to finally drop. And that was 1 month of killing him, not included the time we pulled. In pvp, you die, no problem. Rinse and repeat till you kill the guy/guys who got you and bam there is your update move on. No repair bills, no debt, no nothing for a pvp death (if you mention losing your plat, learn to bank and /delete your toon now for not doing that before). Your server has the option to get BOTH sets of gear/jewelry and were even assisted by being able to get crit mit for not raiding. During TSO the stone skin rings stacked. If you faced a raider who also had the pvp version they were proccing stone skins 40% of the time with a power proc AND [Removed for Content] good stats on the rings.Do you know how over powered a character I could make for 80 BGs on your server? Combine raiding with pvp sets/gear and I would literally have a character that could take on a x2 of people in smugglers. This is the reason people are upset and asking for something to be done.Now, I am sorry that pve has affected pvp honestly I wish it wouldn't. But can you honestly say that while you have 2 paths to get gear we only have 1 for BGs? Raid gear has no toughness and if you go into BGs with T3 (lvl 90) on, you melt. That's not the way it should be. Is it fair that the top raid guilds on your server have to have 2 sets of gear, one challengers other raid set to take out contested because they might get jumped before pull? Heck, tanks on your server have 3 full sets they should be carrying at all times.All PVE wants is equality when taking on people on a cross server match. And before I end, if you come on here and say, (cue sarcasm)"Well he has more AAs, give us all 250 AAs." Or, "He can heal, I want to be able to do that." Those are completely different than what pve has been asking of lower tier BGs. You want to heal, use your healer. You want to have AAs, go grind or quest. You want gear, The answer should be EARN it. <<-- That option is not available at all tiers and thats the only complaint I have seen from pve players.</blockquote>QFE QFE Q.F.E!

Neskonlith

09-10-2010, 02:41 PM

<cite>Wigg@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>You had gear on those merchant's equivalent to gear that took months of going after to POSSIBLY get the item you wanted. In pvp, you die, no problem. Rinse and repeat till you kill the guy/guys who got you and bam there is your update move on. You want gear, The answer should be EARN it. </blockquote>Actually, the revamped TSO gear you are referring to did not exist on merchants until the last few months of TSO, so PVP did not have merchant access to PVE equivalent until after it was put on farm status.In PVE you die, no problem. Rinse and repeat till you get the strat down or you read it up online/watch the YouTube. The NPC mobs are blind 0.1m past their leash points, they reset and perform predictable actions on a timer - NPC mobs won't follow you back to your city and tea-bag your corpse, stalk you and chase you from zone to zone if they want lulz. NPC mobs won't call in in reinforcements to have a massive tea-party like a PVP player does.You earn PVE gear for PVE, no one disputes that. Nagafen is a PVP server with open-PVP where PVE items from immunity are still superior to PVP, and that is where many of us are calling foul - it makes little sense for the best PVP benefits to be gained from actively avoiding PVP by hiding in the safety of immunity. We are calling for PVP solutions to PVP issues on a PVP server.In BeeGees, equality of rewards should be key, since those are controllable encounters - and my understanding from Olihin's comments is that the upcoming planned revamps will render old gear issues moot since the incoming items will be more desirable and equal access to all BeeGee participants.

BlueEternal

09-10-2010, 04:32 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nagafen is a PVP server with open-PVP where PVE items from immunity are still superior to PVP, and that is where many of us are calling foul </blockquote>Strange, from what i've seen most people want to be able to use their PVE gear in PVP without being at a disadvantage.

Neskonlith

09-10-2010, 05:36 PM

<cite>Naroc@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nagafen is a PVP server with open-PVP where PVE items from immunity are still superior to PVP, and that is where many of us are calling foul </blockquote>Strange, from what i've seen most people want to be able to use their PVE gear in PVP without being at a disadvantage.</blockquote>Strange, from what I've seen by examining the gear of other people on WF, many successful PVP players are using some of their PVE gear in PVP without being at a disadvantage because they have superior weapons and procs gained by mixing in PVE items with their PVP gear.How curious, I'll try to remember to tell them next time I see them that Naroc believes they are mistaken for using such a gear mix despite their evident success!

Aleste

09-10-2010, 06:39 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Naroc@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nagafen is a PVP server with open-PVP where PVE items from immunity are still superior to PVP, and that is where many of us are calling foul </blockquote>Strange, from what i've seen most people want to be able to use their PVE gear in PVP without being at a disadvantage.</blockquote>Strange, from what I've seen by examining the gear of other people on WF, many successful PVP players are using some of their PVE gear in PVP without being at a disadvantage because they have superior weapons and procs gained by mixing in PVE items with their PVP gear.How curious, I'll try to remember to tell them next time I see them that Naroc believes they are mistaken for using such a gear mix despite their evident success!</blockquote>The weapons are better proc wise for some raid weapons... but if they are raiding to attain those weapons im sure why have armor to go along with them right? so why penalize them and force them to wear bg armor just for toughness lol. The only weak bg/pvp items are the weapons (some of which are better than the sublime weapons which cost 100 seals) but once the mutilation proc deal goes threw even the bg/pvp weapons become better than raid weapons. Sine it will make killing healers far eaiser to do. No matter what procs come from raid weapons ect you should not be forced to mix gear. Raid gear should have a reduced amount of toughness than its pvp counter part not none at all. If the Fail toughness system is going to continue.Can anyone here say with a stright face that having pvp gear being conducive in both pvp and pve is fine. While making raid armor conducive to only pve is fair?

Neskonlith

09-10-2010, 06:50 PM

<cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote>No matter what procs come from raid weapons ect you should not be forced to mix gear. Raid gear should have a reduced amount of toughness than its pvp counter part not none at all.If the Fail toughness system is going to continue.Can anyone here say with a stright face that having pvp gear being conducive in both pvp and pve is fine. While making raid armor conducive to only pve is fair?</blockquote>You want a one-gear system where only PVE raid gear matters in PVP, with all uber-elite players being cookie-cutter with no choices and no PVP/PVE mixing. You want PVE to be best for PVE and PVP like it used to be.Sorry, the game has evolved beyond the failings of the past - that was done before and it did not work, the populations shrunk and servers merged under that type of PVP.

Crismorn

09-10-2010, 06:58 PM

BlueEternal

09-10-2010, 06:59 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry, the game has evolved beyond the failings of the past - that was done before and it did not work, the populations shrunk and servers merged under that type of PVP.</blockquote>And the server is thriving now? Lol ok. Run around the zones...not warfields like you always use as your means to convince people.

Crismorn

09-10-2010, 07:02 PM

Aleste

09-10-2010, 07:08 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote>No matter what procs come from raid weapons ect you should not be forced to mix gear. Raid gear should have a reduced amount of toughness than its pvp counter part not none at all.If the Fail toughness system is going to continue.Can anyone here say with a stright face that having pvp gear being conducive in both pvp and pve is fine. While making raid armor conducive to only pve is fair?</blockquote>You want a one-gear system where only PVE raid gear matters in PVP, with all uber-elite players being cookie-cutter with no choices and no PVP/PVE mixing. You want PVE to be best for PVE and PVP like it used to be.Sorry, the game has evolved beyond the failings of the past - that was done before and it did not work, the populations shrunk and servers merged under that type of PVP.</blockquote>Lol its funny how people dont read.. I dont want a one gear system. I like the idea of pvp gear as it gives people something to WORK towards. The current system really isnt any work to attain gear thats Very good for both pvp and pve. Yet raid Armor is not effective in pvp. Pvp gear use to bridge the gap between raiders and pvpers and put both on equal footing. It is not that way currently. As for the reason populations shrunk well you can try to atribute it to raid armor but I say it was a combo of botched mechanics classes staying broken to long. Stupid things like god spells and no forethought or care for the portion of that game known as pvp.In case you havent been around a while Ive never known anyone who quit due to raid armor.. as a matter of fact the people i know hunted folks they knew had raid armor because it was a challange and bragging rights when you beat them. Before stat merges and dumbing down of gear raid armor didnt make you leet it helped but you still had to know your toon. But toughness... well ive seen scrubs take way more of a beating than they should because of it.Things like the fame revamp lost players not raid gear.Devs making fundamental game mechanics without even thinking of how it will effect pvp lost players not raid gear.Lowb locked twinks lost players not raid gear.Teabaggin lost players not raid gear.I can write a book on how to lose pvp players if you like.. but i think someone has beat me to it.

Wigg

09-10-2010, 07:10 PM

<cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote>No matter what procs come from raid weapons ect you should not be forced to mix gear. Raid gear should have a reduced amount of toughness than its pvp counter part not none at all.If the Fail toughness system is going to continue.Can anyone here say with a stright face that having pvp gear being conducive in both pvp and pve is fine. While making raid armor conducive to only pve is fair?</blockquote>You want a one-gear system where only PVE raid gear matters in PVP, with all uber-elite players being cookie-cutter with no choices and no PVP/PVE mixing. You want PVE to be best for PVE and PVP like it used to be.Sorry, the game has evolved beyond the failings of the past - that was done before and it did not work, the populations shrunk and servers merged under that type of PVP.</blockquote>Lol its funny how people dont read.. I dont want a one gear system. I like the idea of pvp gear as it gives people something to WORK towards. The current system really isnt any work to attain gear thats Very good for both pvp and pve. Yet raid Armor is not effective in pvp. Pvp gear use to bridge the gap between raiders and pvpers and put both on equal footing. It is not that way currently. As for the reason populations shrunk well you can try to atribute it to raid armor but I say it was a combo of botched mechanics classes staying broken to long. Stupid things like god spells and no forethought or care for the portion of that game known as pvp.In case you havent been around a while Ive never known anyone who quit due to raid armor.. as a matter of fact the people i know hunted folks they knew had raid armor because it was a challange and bragging rights when you beat them. Before stat merges and dumbing down of gear raid armor didnt make you leet it helped but you still had to know your toon. But toughness... well ive seen scrubs take way more of a beating than they should because of it.Things like the fame revamp lost players not raid gear.</blockquote>+1.

Neskonlith

09-10-2010, 07:19 PM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no choice right now, you either wear a full set of bg/pvp gear or you are at a disadvantage.How does this confuse you so much?</blockquote>Sorry, the reality on Nagafen is mixed PVP/PVE gear right now, simply look at what some of the more successful players are wearing and you'll see for yourself.

Aleste

09-10-2010, 07:21 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote>No matter what procs come from raid weapons ect you should not be forced to mix gear. Raid gear should have a reduced amount of toughness than its pvp counter part not none at all.If the Fail toughness system is going to continue.Can anyone here say with a stright face that having pvp gear being conducive in both pvp and pve is fine. While making raid armor conducive to only pve is fair?</blockquote>You want a one-gear system where only PVE raid gear matters in PVP, with all uber-elite players being cookie-cutter with no choices and no PVP/PVE mixing. You want PVE to be best for PVE and PVP like it used to be.Sorry, the game has evolved beyond the failings of the past - that was done before and it did not work, the populations shrunk and servers merged under that type of PVP.</blockquote>I had to revisit this... What do you think is going on now lol. I dont mind a pvp system where you build your toon by mixing and matching ect. but.. what are your options? bg/pvp gear and raid weapons maybe a few charms or jewelery? no matter what the core of your build the armor is going to be the same all toughness stacked if you want to live. Dont get me wrong I love pvp gear! The tso stuff being a great example it was well thought out and required effort to attain. Hell even the parry belt from t7 i loved it. But this cookie cutter junk we have now is not pvp armor and its being passed off as such because of "toughness". What im saying is simple its an If/then statment.If pvp gear is useable in pvp and pve.Then pve gear Should be useable in pvp and pve.(without a huge disadvantage in survivability.)Put a reduced amount of toughness on all gear imo. Or remove it all togetherIf the system stays as suchThen strip "pvp" gear of all its pveness.Wouldnt want people farming masters or using pvp gear to get their myth buffs now would we since it is pve content you know?

Crismorn

09-10-2010, 07:35 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no choice right now, you either wear a full set of bg/pvp gear or you are at a disadvantage.How does this confuse you so much?</blockquote>Sorry, the reality on Nagafen is mixed PVP/PVE gear right now, simply look at what some of the more successful players are wearing and you'll see for yourself.</blockquote>The reply you quoted was under the assumption that the player understands how itemization works.

Neskonlith

09-10-2010, 07:56 PM

<cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote>I had to revisit this... What do you think is going on now lol. I dont mind a pvp system where you build your toon by mixing and matching ect. but.. what are your options?Dont get me wrong I love pvp gear! The tso stuff being a great example it was well thought out and required effort to attain.</blockquote>More options leads to more valid playstyles - the issues flare up when one playstyle demands to be superior over another playstyle without doing anything to attain it. This is the way it used to be with PVE raid gear: it was automatically superior in both PVE and PVP despite no PVP efforts. When PVP was finally enhanced as part of an effort to improve the last PVP server, a controversy erupted as some hardcore PVE refused to allow PVP to be a valid game option:<cite>Olihin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. BEFORE raid gear was superior than anything. 2. THEN they brought in pvp gear which did counter most of the raid gear making things even in pvp. 3. NOW pvp gear is better than raid gear in pvp and this is wrong. </blockquote>1. This is true and this was huge problem for everyone except the 24 on the raid rosters of our very limited successful raid guilds, their alts and whomever was rich enough to buy the loot rights. In fairness, I would say 100 people found this to be the true golden age of PvP. Everyone else? 2. This caused the 100 people previously mention to PM me to no end about the unfairness that now maybe 100 more people would have the gear that competes with their raid gear. This change also exposed the huge desire of everyone to want to participate in PvP and gave hundreds of other players hope of competition. The reaction against the "copy paste" armor was huge, positive or negative the need for a new approach was requested. 3. What we have now is probably the best compromise. Raid gear is still superior for PvE, but competitive in PvP. PvP Gear is superior for PvP, and useful towards gaining competitive gear in PvE. Yes that is not equal but you can solo your way to a full set of PvP gear. </blockquote>complete wall of text original post here: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/quote.m?postId=5402471&start=60">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...402471&start=60</a>There was no real choice before in PVP: wear the uber-OP PVE raid gear, or stay in immunity/instances, or die. Now we have more options to choose from for some slots, but it is still weighed in favour of PVE raiding.For Nagafen, if PVP must earn PVE usefulness, then PVE must earn PVP usefulness - no free passes for anyone. Turning back the clock to the "golden age" means returning PVE have an automatic godmode PVP template for no PVP efforts, and that was rejected by the majority refusing to participate in PVP back then.

Aleste

09-10-2010, 07:58 PM

I do understand what you are saying. The problem is that one thing has nothing to do with the other. Toughness is desirable but in some cases it is OP. Not in all cases though...in most actually the raid gear is very competitive and more desirable. ...the choice is yours to make. Full DPS or Full Survival? Most go with a little of both.... You do not have to fully toughness out a character. I know that you have many alts and doing so would be less then fun. The thing is that you could enhance their survival just a bit if you wanted. In regards to the OP abilities some classes have, they are being reviewed and once a reasonable solution if found, they will be dealt with. OlihinThats from the pvp dev..Theres another reason players leave even the dev has no clue whats going on in pvp. No matter how many complaints are thrown at him about how broken something is he refuses to fix it. Eq2 has gone the way of easy mode everything. In on sentance he says raiding has nothing to do with pvp (guess he doesnt know about old school contested kill blocks). And in a few other lines says Raid gear is better than pvp gear with no proof to back it up. Then he tells people rather than fix a system he admits makes some classes op go mix and match the gear to have "a little of both".I wonder if these guys are playing Eq2 or pac man. Can someone please explain what "in some cases it is op. Not in all cases.... in most actually raid gear is very competitive and more desirable actually" means? In the same breath your saying toughness is op but its not and raid gear is better [Removed for Content]. Some people really need PR lessons.

Crismorn

09-10-2010, 08:00 PM

Spending 2 weeks to get the best possible pvp/bg gear in the game without any chance of being held back regardless of your playing ability is not what I would call a healthy option, especially if the entire pvp system follows a no-loss philosophy.But you already knew this

Aleste

09-10-2010, 08:04 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote>I had to revisit this... What do you think is going on now lol. I dont mind a pvp system where you build your toon by mixing and matching ect. but.. what are your options?Dont get me wrong I love pvp gear! The tso stuff being a great example it was well thought out and required effort to attain.</blockquote>More options leads to more valid playstyles - the issues flare up when one playstyle demands to be superior over another playstyle without doing anything to attain it. This is the way it used to be with PVE raid gear: it was automatically superior in both PVE and PVP despite no PVP efforts. When PVP was finally enhanced as part of an effort to improve the last PVP server, a controversy erupted as some hardcore PVE refused to allow PVP to be a valid game option:<cite>Olihin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. BEFORE raid gear was superior than anything. 2. THEN they brought in pvp gear which did counter most of the raid gear making things even in pvp. 3. NOW pvp gear is better than raid gear in pvp and this is wrong. </blockquote>1. This is true and this was huge problem for everyone except the 24 on the raid rosters of our very limited successful raid guilds, their alts and whomever was rich enough to buy the loot rights. In fairness, I would say 100 people found this to be the true golden age of PvP. Everyone else? 2. This caused the 100 people previously mention to PM me to no end about the unfairness that now maybe 100 more people would have the gear that competes with their raid gear. This change also exposed the huge desire of everyone to want to participate in PvP and gave hundreds of other players hope of competition. The reaction against the "copy paste" armor was huge, positive or negative the need for a new approach was requested. 3. What we have now is probably the best compromise. Raid gear is still superior for PvE, but competitive in PvP. PvP Gear is superior for PvP, and useful towards gaining competitive gear in PvE. Yes that is not equal but you can solo your way to a full set of PvP gear. </blockquote>complete wall of text original post here: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/quote.m?postId=5402471&start=60">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...402471&start=60</a>There was no real choice before in PVP: wear the uber-OP PVE raid gear, or stay in immunity/instances, or die. Now we have more options to choose from for some slots, but it is still weighed in favour of PVE raiding.For Nagafen, if PVP must earn PVE usefulness, then PVE must earn PVP usefulness - no free passes for anyone. Turning back the clock to the "golden age" means returning PVE have an automatic godmode PVP template for no PVP efforts, and that was rejected by the majority refusing to participate in PVP back then.</blockquote>PVP doesnt earn pve usefullness at all.. its gifted. Bg/pvp armor is good for running everything except maybe some hardmode mobs. Because it has stats that are better than most of what you would find in instances.Yet raid gear.. on the other hand nada in pvp all its positive effects are mitigated by toughness.Yes Ill agree pvp gear does not have pve crit mit but... neither does half the stuff that drops in instances. And pvp gear has better stats. Please tell me how PVP has to earn its usefullness? when the procs alone are better than the procs on a good portion of t1 raid gear?The pvp dev is blowing smoke... seriously what hes saying is solo for pvp gear to use to get raid gear to switch to pvp gear when you pvp Rofl comeon pfft.

Neskonlith

09-10-2010, 08:08 PM

Good discussion, but now I got a WF and then a raid to attend - BBL!Happy hunting!

Legion2024

09-10-2010, 09:38 PM

nothing wrong with open world pvp get out there and hunt <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> just finished raising another warden and saw plenty of pvp around the traps, in places i thought i would never see it, it is out there just have to go look...

Neskonlith

09-11-2010, 02:06 PM

Last night's Friday Night Farming Raids Fun Run was another success, our x2 went looking for alt gear in Toxx, Para, Palace and Icy Keep and walked away with 18p+, lots of alt loot, a couple masters and plenty of easy raid Tokens. People came and went as we hit the zones up, and it went remarkably smooth despite some of the bruiser crud dropping.There was a couple lulzy faceplants to be blamed on wobbly pops, but otherwise there was no risk, no cost, mad profit$$$, etc. Vent was all about jokes and laughter, no "srs bznss" allowed - and everyone had fun! Having fun in a video game with friends, what a concept!Anyways, unlike the quitters haunting these forums, I'm still enjoying the game in ALL of its aspects so I have some crafting to do while I wait for the next WF to pop before I take some alts out for AA questing.Happy hunting to all you has-beens and outside observers: hope you enjoy whatever it is you eventually find!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" />

Duotang

09-11-2010, 02:39 PM

NESKONLITH,Webdesign 101 teaches you to never use red text on black background as the reader will typically skim right past what it is you're trying to get across.I assume you have some valid points in this thread, but I will never know, and probably 90% or the other posters.I digress...

Aleste

09-12-2010, 12:46 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Last night's Friday Night Farming Raids Fun Run was another success, our x2 went looking for alt gear in Toxx, Para, Palace and Icy Keep and walked away with 18p+, lots of alt loot, a couple masters and plenty of easy raid Tokens. People came and went as we hit the zones up, and it went remarkably smooth despite some of the bruiser crud dropping.There was a couple lulzy faceplants to be blamed on wobbly pops, but otherwise there was no risk, no cost, mad profit$$$, etc. Vent was all about jokes and laughter, no "srs bznss" allowed - and everyone had fun! Having fun in a video game with friends, what a concept!Anyways, unlike the quitters haunting these forums, I'm still enjoying the game in ALL of its aspects so I have some crafting to do while I wait for the next WF to pop before I take some alts out for AA questing.Happy hunting to all you has-beens and outside observers: hope you enjoy whatever it is you eventually find!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Just a friendly reminder.. there is never Risk involved in a game. Its not like hired hitmen come to your home if you lose. And who was the has-been and outside observers comment directed at? It's obvious some people care about their hobby so they come here to voice their complaints in hopes to get things changed rather than /quit. You would think since we are all gammers that we would respect each other but more often than not its insults tossed in these forums more than anything else. We could take this to flames and see what type of replies you get.

Neskonlith

09-13-2010, 03:32 PM

<cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a friendly reminder.. there is never Risk involved in a game. Its not like hired hitmen come to your home if you lose.And who was the has-been and outside observers comment directed at? It's obvious some people care about their hobby so they come here to voice their complaints in hopes to get things changed rather than /quit.You would think since we are all gammers that we would respect each other but more often than not its insults tossed in these forums more than anything else. We could take this to flames and see what type of replies you get.</blockquote>PVE raiders can be so convoluted in their attempts to try and prove there is "risk" in PVE raids - it's all part of a game.Why suddenly the thin-skin? A has-been is a formerly good player who is fading into obscurity. A quitter is a person who quits. I'm not the one posting "idiot", "[Removed for Content]", "dumb", etc - I'm merely pointing out the obvious yet again.How can someone obviously "care about their hobby" when they have cancelled subscription and don't play??lol

Aleste

09-13-2010, 03:50 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a friendly reminder.. there is never Risk involved in a game. Its not like hired hitmen come to your home if you lose.And who was the has-been and outside observers comment directed at? It's obvious some people care about their hobby so they come here to voice their complaints in hopes to get things changed rather than /quit.You would think since we are all gammers that we would respect each other but more often than not its insults tossed in these forums more than anything else. We could take this to flames and see what type of replies you get.</blockquote>PVE raiders can be so convoluted in their attempts to try and prove there is "risk" in PVE raids - it's all part of a game.Why suddenly the thin-skin? A has-been is a formerly good player who is fading into obscurity. A quitter is a person who quits. I'm not the one posting "idiot", "[Removed for Content]", "dumb", etc - I'm merely pointing out the obvious yet again.How can someone obviously "care about their hobby" when they have cancelled subscription and don't play??lol</blockquote>You assume way to much. I still play, and to use the term Has-been is useless as there are no standout pvpers anymore.. and raid dps is mostly determined by group set up.Someone needs to read before posting (and whats up with the red text? you feel special?).You can care about something yet not want any part of it. Be it hobby or Irl someone must not know what a woman is.

Neskonlith

09-13-2010, 03:57 PM

<cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote>You assume way to much. I still play, and to use the term Has-been is useless as there are no standout pvpers anymore.. and raid dps is mostly determined by group set up.Someone needs to read before posting (and whats up with the red text? you feel special?).You can care about something yet not want any part of it. Be it hobby or Irl someone must not know what a woman is lol.</blockquote>Red and Black are Freeport colours, and I'm a patriot: Gods Bless Freeport!You might still play, but Taldier, Dreww, Tricky do not, and they were the ones quite active on forums recently in suggesting absurdly unbalanced changes for a game they quit and no longer play. Not every post is about you! Anyways, it is time for me to do something those others cannot: I'm off to play the game in it's entirety!Happy Hunting!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" />

Aleste

09-13-2010, 04:06 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote>You assume way to much. I still play, and to use the term Has-been is useless as there are no standout pvpers anymore.. and raid dps is mostly determined by group set up.Someone needs to read before posting (and whats up with the red text? you feel special?).You can care about something yet not want any part of it. Be it hobby or Irl someone must not know what a woman is lol.</blockquote>Red and Black are Freeport colours, and I'm a patriot: Gods Bless Freeport!You might still play, but Taldier, Dreww, Tricky do not, and they were the ones quite active on forums recently in suggesting absurdly unbalanced changes for a game they quit and no longer play. Not every post is about you! Anyways, it is time for me to do something those others cannot: I'm off to play the game in it's entirety!Happy Hunting!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Then specify who your speaking about <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Im sure they quit for good reason. They prob dont want the game they care about ruined anymore than it already is.lol good luck to you too.

TanDao

10-05-2010, 02:05 PM

BG gear sucks compared to last generation t8 pvp gear. We earned it with tears and blood(sweats) when we had to kill 3 types of class and need to hunt over all realms to look for. Now tha tparticular type and flavor of gear need to be tuned so its not over power in bg. This is sucks. Because fighting in a BG is less challenging and risk then in an open world. You dont drop plat in BG. you die happily since you dotn get or loose fame in BG too. PPl drop 400+ plat in TG and few drop 40p on his way to buy rime mount. A lot more ppl camp quest giver and shot ppl returning quest to get loot. The people in PVE server dont have these issues. PPl who fights for their fame and quest reward deserve a better equipments than people fights in a simulator. Drop the WF entirly. Who ned the pettyful 6-2 tokens if one can have a fair fights. People who spend lots times in PVP and get geared up and find out the new gear dont have any cm and they are considered naked in a raid. So people in a pvp server need to double the time they play to earn raid gear and pvp gear and need to sacrifice thier hard earned gear with pve server's player. Its very sad and SOE is making this game less fun to play day by day. I enjoy a fir one on one as long its a fair fights. win or loose dont matter since you can learn in theprocess. Howevver, 30 fp vs3 q or vice versa i sno fun in a wf. and the fights are not enjopyable and absolutly no skill required.

Faeward

10-06-2010, 05:40 AM

I think Nagafen should be excluded from using BG's.Then we will return to the good old days of doing real PVP and earning real PVP gear instead of this stuff with toughness on it. Then those on PVE servers wouldn't be affected.I and many others in my guild very strongly believe that BG's took the fun and uniqueness out of Nagafen.

sokil

10-06-2010, 02:12 PM

<cite>Faeward@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think Nagafen should be excluded from using BG's.Then we will return to the good old days of doing real PVP and earning real PVP gear instead of this stuff with toughness on it. Then those on PVE servers wouldn't be affected.I and many others in my guild very strongly believe that BG's took the fun and uniqueness out of Nagafen.</blockquote>Althogh I agree 100% with this commet, it was also invinciple mages/healers (not all but more than just the skilled ones) that ruined naggy. How many people quit and never came back?Also, different armor for pvp/pvp sucks. always had and always will.I miss open world pvp hwen you had something to win but not with the inbalances. open world pvp is not fun when three well equiped players run up against the unkillable more often than not.BGs, although I do them out of boredom, or not fun. You don't know the ones you group with and there is not much but chaos and weakness to them.

Messia

10-12-2010, 03:39 AM

<cite>Sochi@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Faeward@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think Nagafen should be excluded from using BG's.Then we will return to the good old days of doing real PVP and earning real PVP gear instead of this stuff with toughness on it. Then those on PVE servers wouldn't be affected.I and many others in my guild very strongly believe that BG's took the fun and uniqueness out of Nagafen.</blockquote>Althogh I agree 100% with this commet, it was also invinciple mages/healers (not all but more than just the skilled ones) that ruined naggy. How many people quit and never came back?Also, different armor for pvp/pvp sucks. always had and always will.I miss open world pvp hwen you had something to win but not with the inbalances. open world pvp is not fun when three well equiped players run up against the unkillable more often than not.BGs, although I do them out of boredom, or not fun. You don't know the ones you group with and there is not much but chaos and weakness to them.</blockquote>these players are not unkillable ... but SUPRISE they take a different strategy than just running up to them and beating them over the head with your stick. If you are three well geared scouts ... you could easily have drained their power in what ... 3 min ... wow so instead of 20 seconds to kill them it took you just under 5 min ... ... but i'm fairly certain that there was no risk of any of the 3 dying .. even without a healer. Learn your classes, everyone else shouldnt' have to pay the price with a nerf bat everytime someone cries about their inability to kill someone ... screw all you people complaining about "pvp changes needing made" when what you really mean is BG changes.... two entirely different things btw. I do not consider a BG .. pvp.