Guardian threat / dps

[steveatk]

<p>As we have the attention of Xelgad and the dps/tps issues are constantly buried and ignored I thought it might be a good idea to request feedback from the powers that be concerning this issue specifically.</p><p>Are there any plans to address this issue and if so what are your proposed solutions in aiding...</p><p>1. The solo Guardian</p><p>2. The heroic Guardian</p><p>3. The raiding Guardian</p><p>I fear that the current changes on Test will be the extent of the overhaul leaving us continuing to struggle for agro in groups/raids and taking forever to solo.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Aerin@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As we have the attention of Xelgad and the dps/tps issues are constantly buried and ignored I thought it might be a good idea to request feedback from the powers that be concerning this issue specifically.</p><p>Are there any plans to address this issue and if so what are your proposed solutions in aiding...</p><p>1. The solo Guardian</p><p>2. The heroic Guardian</p><p>3. The raiding Guardian</p><p>I fear that the current changes on Test will be the extent of the overhaul leaving us continuing to struggle for agro in groups/raids and taking forever to solo.</p></blockquote><p>Solo and heroic is ok not crusader good but ok. With the new changes Guards shouldn't have agro issues in heroic content any more. DPS is another story vs the others though.</p><p>Raids are another story, If there isn't a link or troub for the dps classes in my raid I do have to work my butt off to maintain aggro and lose the battle many times. So I put an aggro meter bar under my health bar so I am not looking in two placed for them <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> Granted I haven't had the opportunity to check the new things out in a raid, so I have no data but from the looks of them it don't look like it will help out on raids.</p>

[Twizty]

<p>As I have said in other threads, the new 'mini amends' on test would help us in that respect if it were castable on a raid member not just a group member. If we could suck away 15% of the threat generated by a big nuker/dpser in another group then it might go a way to helping towards our threat. I know Xelgad has stated that this new line is for group Guards but would it really hurt that much to make the new buff raidwide?. After all, what a pointless line for raid tanks it will be without something along these lines. Most of us are capped hate-wise in raid anyway and we all know what a big difference that makes to us <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Make the siphon castable raidwide and we might actually take the aa line. Who the hell are you going to cast it on in the MT group? Healers, regen or dirge? Hmmm tough choice <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Twizty@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As I have said in other threads, the new 'mini amends' on test would help us in that respect if it were castable on a raid member not just a group member. If we could suck away 15% of the threat generated by a big nuker/dpser in another group then it might go a way to helping towards our threat. I know Xelgad has stated that this new line is for group Guards but would it really hurt that much to make the new buff raidwide?. After all, what a pointless line for raid tanks it will be without something along these lines. Most of us are capped hate-wise in raid anyway and we all know what a big difference that makes to us <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />. Make the siphon castable raidwide and we might actually take the aa line. Who the hell are you going to cast it on in the MT group? Healers, regen or dirge? Hmmm tough choice <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Suck some more hate out of the swash/assassin or Coercer.  Or being a little more flexible and being able to take 15% of a brigs hate if he was thrown in there...which is a lot.  Or even more flexible if you really wanna play around with 15% of a Warlocks hate on AE encounters....</p><p>Its a mini-Amends and it has been pointed out many times why Amends is an ability that shouldn't exist...</p><p>Toran as far as your hate I am really trying to understand why you are having trouble holding hate at the raid level.  Raid-level hate should be the easiest because the raid is constructed to make sure everything is siphoned to the MT.  You build your MT group with a dirge and Coercer for max hate mod and Coercer transfers you hate along with the Swash / Assassin...or now in the case of mini Amends any class for 15% hate transfer.  Next your mages being hard nukers are grouped with a Troub to keep their hate down and yes the classes you need to worry about have link.</p><p>The gripe was always at the heroic level since it is much harder to get all that support for a proper set up.  Hence some of the changes being more heroic focused since that is where the problem was.</p>

[schizolic]

<p>cant siphon more off the assassin/swash/coercer, a if 2 xfers are on one player on the higher one will work, leaving healers or dirge.... or in a pick up i guess you can put an sk up there to siphon off of <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Twizty@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As I have said in other threads, the new 'mini amends' on test would help us in that respect if it were castable on a raid member not just a group member. If we could suck away 15% of the threat generated by a big nuker/dpser in another group then it might go a way to helping towards our threat. I know Xelgad has stated that this new line is for group Guards but would it really hurt that much to make the new buff raidwide?. After all, what a pointless line for raid tanks it will be without something along these lines. Most of us are capped hate-wise in raid anyway and we all know what a big difference that makes to us <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />. Make the siphon castable raidwide and we might actually take the aa line. Who the hell are you going to cast it on in the MT group? Healers, regen or dirge? Hmmm tough choice <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Suck some more hate out of the swash/assassin or Coercer.  Or being a little more flexible and being able to take 15% of a brigs hate if he was thrown in there...which is a lot.  Or even more flexible if you really wanna play around with 15% of a Warlocks hate on AE encounters....</p><p>Its a mini-Amends and it has been pointed out many times why Amends is an ability that shouldn't exist...</p><p>Toran as far as your hate I am really trying to understand why you are having trouble holding hate at the raid level.  Raid-level hate should be the easiest because the raid is constructed to make sure everything is siphoned to the MT.  You build your MT group with a dirge and Coercer for max hate mod and Coercer transfers you hate along with the Swash / Assassin...or now in the case of mini Amends any class for 15% hate transfer.  Next your mages being hard nukers are grouped with a Troub to keep their hate down and yes the classes you need to worry about have link.</p><p>The gripe was always at the heroic level since it is much harder to get all that support for a proper set up.  Hence some of the changes being more heroic focused since that is where the problem was.</p></blockquote><p>I don't always get a transfer coercer and dirge yea but no transfer we are mostly x2 things ATM as the guild I am in now just formed, so we are less then optimal ATM. Thanks for the basic in group make up there buddy I would of never firgue out how to use them classes buffs... I should of stated I don't have a real issue until I have to go sword and board and ask any guard that is when they have the most issues with agro. I know u can't understand this and i don't expect you to be able to.</p>

[steveatk]

<p>I always run with Dirge + Coercer + Assassin and always have Trak shield buff running. I also have Rancorous Ire procs (+1 hate position proc).</p><p>I can climb the hate list faster than anyone else which is awesome for memwipes but holding a mob when I have to go sword and board requires a ridiculous amount of effort if your raid doesn't suck.</p><p>I tank most mobs, including hard modes in dual wield & offensive stance with shield macrod to any skill that's used to give my healers some room to breath and as soon as I'm stable again it's back to dual wield just so that I can keep the mob on me. Does any other plate tank have to do this? No, they do not.</p><p>My one saving grace at the moment is that everytime I do lose agro it's usually only for a split second or two because of the snaps and the Rancorous Ire procs but frequently I am out of snaps and the procs don't fire which means the mob is facing the raid who are eating AOE's and wiping.</p><p><strong>How am I going to be able to play this way once the mitigation changes go in?</strong></p><p>I will have to stay defensive or at least keep my shield on - which means agro will be a major problem on <strong>every single fight</strong>. Which other fighter class has this problem because they had to equip their shield or go defensive in order to be able to mitigate damage?</p><p>We need a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">significant</span> improvement in our dps (preferable) or tps while using a shield and then I think we will be much closer to balanced.</p><p>I for one will not be speccing into Shoulder the Burden. I have Trak shield (which isn't enough to fix agro problems while wearing a shield btw) and there is no-one in MT group to put that buff on anyway as already explained earlier in this thread.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p>I just dont see these new changes even helping most Heroic guardians much.  Maybe the ones still out there running groups without any form of hate buff or xfer, and lacking any Undeniable Malice, etc procs but those Guards have to be extremely far and few between by now.</p><p>The problem for Guardians at he heroic level these days is not due to lack of hate mods or hate xfers .....its due to the fact that DPS has massivley skyrocketed for the DPS classes and even non DPS scouts while our DPS/TPS has remained rather lame.</p><p>The mini-amends doesnt really do much being single targert and only 15%.....and its just too costly AA wise to even get.</p><p>And for many Guardians the new Plant is actually a nerf over the current plant.</p><p>For the lesser geared Guardians the 3% flurry over 9% DA is a nerf.</p><p>Low geared, heroic Gaurdians even with things like Shoulder the BUrdon will still find maintaining aggro is groups frustrating becuase their DPS/TPS is pathetic as it is and worse because they are undergeared when compared to even the most average geared DPS classes they will most likely be running with.</p><p>Raid geared Guards do not benefit whatsoever from most of these changes....not that they needed any help with hate or threat as most Raid guards do not have aggro issues assuming the raid is well constructed......the only classes they have issues  with is other fighters but thats the fault of those other fighters being badly played or usually just wanting to show off.   The problem Raid guards have today is that every other tank can survive and tank all the content just fine while also bringing other things like (DPS) to the table....while a Guard brings nothing else and really doesnt offer much of an advantage even defensively which they clearly should.</p><p>These changes might help the extremely undergeared, etc Guardians a little but what we really needed were changes to address the guys in the middle.</p><p>They needed to up Guard DPS/TPS by significant numbers for these changes to have any noticeable impact at addressing the real issues.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Takauri@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I always run with Dirge + Coercer + Assassin and always have Trak shield buff running. I also have Rancorous Ire procs (+1 hate position proc).</p><p>I can climb the hate list faster than anyone else which is awesome for memwipes but holding a mob when I have to go sword and board requires a ridiculous amount of effort if your raid doesn't suck.</p><p>I tank most mobs, including hard modes in dual wield & offensive stance with shield macrod to any skill that's used to give my healers some room to breath and as soon as I'm stable again it's back to dual wield just so that I can keep the mob on me. Does any other plate tank have to do this? No, they do not.</p><p>My one saving grace at the moment is that everytime I do lose agro it's usually only for a split second or two because of the snaps and the Rancorous Ire procs but frequently I am out of snaps and the procs don't fire which means the mob is facing the raid who are eating AOE's and wiping.</p><p><strong>How am I going to be able to play this way once the mitigation changes go in?</strong></p><p>I will have to stay defensive or at least keep my shield on - which means agro will be a major problem on <strong>every single fight</strong>. Which other fighter class has this problem because they had to equip their shield or go defensive in order to be able to mitigate damage?</p><p>We need a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">significant</span> improvement in our dps (preferable) or tps while using a shield and then I think we will be much closer to balanced.</p><p>I for one will not be speccing into Shoulder the Burden. I have Trak shield (which isn't enough to fix agro problems while wearing a shield btw) and there is no-one in MT group to put that buff on anyway as already explained earlier in this thread.</p></blockquote><p>+1</p><p>This is my exact concern, and this post *needs* to be in the test forum - guard changes thread.</p><p>This explains pretty much exactly where I am raiding today, and what I fear about these changes.  Not enough is being done to change the aggro gap between guards and really everyone else.</p>

[Ardors]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I just dont see these new changes even helping most Heroic guardians much.  Maybe the ones still out there running groups without any form of hate buff or xfer, and lacking any Undeniable Malice, etc procs but those Guards have to be extremely far and few between by now.</p><p>The problem for Guardians at he heroic level these days is not due to lack of hate mods or hate xfers .....its due to the fact that DPS has massivley skyrocketed for the DPS classes and even non DPS scouts while our DPS/TPS has remained rather lame.</p><p>The mini-amends doesnt really do much being single targert and only 15%.....and its just too costly AA wise to even get.</p><p>And for many Guardians the new Plant is actually a nerf over the current plant.</p><p>For the lesser geared Guardians the 3% flurry over 9% DA is a nerf.</p><p>Low geared, heroic Gaurdians even with things like Shoulder the BUrdon will still find maintaining aggro is groups frustrating becuase their DPS/TPS is pathetic as it is and worse because they are undergeared when compared to even the most average geared DPS classes they will most likely be running with.</p><p>Raid geared Guards do not benefit whatsoever from most of these changes....not that they needed any help with hate or threat as most Raid guards do not have aggro issues assuming the raid is well constructed......the only classes they have issues  with is other fighters but thats the fault of those other fighters being badly played or usually just wanting to show off.   The problem Raid guards have today is that every other tank can survive and tank all the content just fine while also bringing other things like (DPS) to the table....while a Guard brings nothing else and really doesnt offer much of an advantage even defensively which they clearly should.</p><p>These changes might help the extremely undergeared, etc Guardians a little but what we really needed were changes to address the guys in the middle.</p><p>They needed to up Guard DPS/TPS by significant numbers for these changes to have any noticeable impact at addressing the real issues.</p></blockquote><p>Well said Gaylon, +1 to you!</p><p>Xelgad, please carefully read Gaylon's post here, he has captured very well the issues Guards are having and how the upcomming changes will not suffice, especially at the raid level.</p><p>Cheers! </p>