Undead Horde

[Rothgar]

<p>At Fan Faire, one of the suggestions was that we take a look at Undead Horde because corpses were disappearing too quickly making this spell less effective.  I didn't ask to clarify at the time, so I wanted to get your feedback here.</p><p>Is this a problem primarily in raids or not in raids?  I've been looking at the corpse timers and corpses with no loot will disappear in about 10 seconds.  Higher tier mobs will hang around for awhile even if they have no loot on them. </p><p>Is this a widespread issue and if so, where are you having the most problems with it?</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>The problem really is that corpses will be looted asap on raids, if they exist at all, so as to get rid of the graphical lag.</p><p>Several boss fights that generate adds (Tyrannus the Dark and Munzok the Corruptor for example), these adds do not leave corpses at all, iirc.</p><p>I think what the Fan Faire person was asking for is for the spell to always generate the most amount of possible pets every time, regardless of the number of corpses around.</p>

[Carthington]

<p>Just to add to what he said, Undead Horde dies way too easily as well, bloodpact doesn't cover undead horde (or any dumbfire pets for that matter) like it will our regular pets that I've noticed.....its definitely not like planeshift...</p>

[Rothgar]

<p><cite>Carthington wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just to add to what he said, Undead Horde dies way too easily as well, bloodpact doesn't cover undead horde (or any dumbfire pets for that matter) like it will our regular pets that I've noticed.....its definitely not like planeshift...</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, dumbfire pets dying is a completely different issue that was brought up as well.</p>

[Carthington]

<p>I didn't mean to derail the thread O.o</p><p>Just thought it would help on the info side to help us necros <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[booya]

<p>the problem with undead horde and corpses is the same for both raiding and non-raiding instances, or solo:  corpses vanish in 10 seconds or less with no loot...</p><p>raids:  trash vanishes before hitting the ground unless they have loot,   only named boss corpses stay, example of this would be dragon adds in tox, the trash adds for the first named in PCaL,  all the trash there after, all the trash in PoRT</p><p>2nd raid problem is raids move...   in previous tirs corpses did linger for ungodly amounts of time,  and they were HUGE vision blocking corpses,  prime example would be back in RoK: VP trash dragons</p><p>if you left the corpses if was a hinderance to targeting, if you moved the raid away from the corpses well they dint count for the undead horse spell</p><p>Instances: corpses vanish in seconds as there looted,  leaveing corpses up casuses the same issues as above in raids, and introduces a issue with not getting key items needed to finish zones or get certain rewards ie: void shards/marks</p><p>Solo:  this one is the same as above as you loot your own kills,  granted you have more control over this but the problem remains, you can eather charge up a horde or you can get loot...  </p>

[Syndarin]

<p>Can I derail the thread and say dumbfires die faster than corpses disapeering on the ground?</p>

[Aleste]

<p>Corpses could stay on the group for 20 mins and i still wouldnt use the spell. It actualy makes me do less dps when i use it since dumbfire pets die when someone sneezes. Its a waste of time i could be using to cast something usefull (like my ghost illusion). No disrespect but there are more pressing things at hand for this class. (serious lack of dps, needing the attention of two or three other classes to even try to dps). The amount of time corpses stay on the ground is "Dead" at the bottom of most necros list. To bad i couldnt make it to fan faire the questions that were asked and problems people mentions makes me think i missed out on some very good drugs.</p><p>P.s Again not trying to sound snippy but geesh parse a necro for yourslef in a raid setting or even on a dummy.. then parse all other mage classes in the same settings. Then take a look at what each brings to a group/raid. Heck even bring one to bg's but fair warning you might want to pack some reading material watching rez countdown is not very intresting.</p><p>I know everyone on the Dev team is busy fixing problems with quests, mechanics ect. (some quests from t5 are still broken beetle zaping quest in ss for example) but class balance should come first since without decent classes to play the game the rest of the content does not really matter.</p><p>one more thing.. if you want to solve the trivial corpse problem rather than litter everyones screen with bodies (things to add lag) introduce a corpse count buff for the spell let it last 5 mins or so and count the number of mobs killed by the group or raid in that time then apply it to undead horde. But still....</p>

[wullailhuit]

<p>The problem with Undead Hoarde (Ignoring the problem with all dumbfire pets , which is also part of the problem with undead hoarde) is both in group and raids , there are literally no corpses to use 99.9% of the time , all the corpses are looted leaving none for the counter on the spell to use  for max dumbfire pets.</p><p>IMO the recast on the spell is large enough that you could just make it give the maximum number and the increase in DPS would be minimal over all as the majority of them will still die to mobs AEing.</p><p>Either decrease the timer by half or make it always cast the max number of dumbfires or even just make the spell another fast ticking HIGH DPS dot with the current timer.</p>

[Aleste]

<p><cite>Wullail@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The problem with Undead Hoarde (Ignoring the problem with all dumbfire pets , which is also part of the problem with undead hoarde) is both in group and raids , there are literally no corpses to use 99.9% of the time , all the corpses are looted leaving none for the counter on the spell to use  for max dumbfire pets.</p><p>IMO the recast on the spell is large enough that you could just make it give the maximum number and the increase in DPS would be minimal over all as the majority of them will still die to mobs AEing.</p><p>Either decrease the timer by half or make it always cast the max number of dumbfires or <strong>even just make the spell another fast ticking HIGH DPS dot with the current timer.</strong></p></blockquote><p>The way the game has changed over time should make people realize thats the only reasonable way to do it. Dumbfire pets are cast for three reasons in pve. Correct me if im wrong here.</p><p>1. Soloing some people cast them when solo idk why but they do.</p><p>2. Just to see the animations for old time sake. I mean they do look cool and make you feel more necro like.</p><p>3. Nothing else to cast. better off fding and waiting for stuff to refresh than throw a dumbfire pet imo.</p><p>There are to many aoes to make dumbfire pets usefull The least you Devs could do is extend Blood pact to all our pets. I mean it does cost us 10% life. I think Conjys have an ability like it also a temp buff? if both abilities protected all our dumbfire pets i wouldnt see such a huge issue with them. (and it wouldnt mess up classes that need pets to die to proc effects like illy.</p><p>while your at it Ooze pet? I mean seriously oooooze pet maybe you should take a poll and see how many people use it. Ive never seen anyone run this pet since Eof when it was introduced. Hey could make a dumbfire to dot aa and put it in the ooze pets place <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[thog_zork]

<p>yeah fix swarm pets first so that they do not die in 10s... far more benefical !</p>

[Aleste]

<p>Small changes could make this class a viable class to play. Making our pets either dots or aoe immune would not make us overpowered so I dont understand why it can't be done. I hate to point fingers at all but other classes are getting far better abilities and summoners defining ability (summoning stuff) is left broken.</p><p>P.s want to see game breaking? check out a assassin range attacking with 15% flurry the ranger fix will make assassins king of the bow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (off subject but I just had to put it out there)</p>

[azraelteir]

<p>On our raids we have a policy of looting all corpses, weather they have any loot or not, so the graphic of the corpse will go away.  The reason for this, well the biggest reason anyway, is the graphics lag.  We have a few people on our force that do not have a system capable of handling the added  load of corpses on top of the 23 other players in the immediate vicinity.</p><p>In a group setting its a little less critical, however its also rare to have a group set with leader only loot, and without fail someone is going to be looting the corpses as we go, so it adds a certain amount of randomness to it.  Plus, with the introduction of the Key Mob in zones that have a Shard/Seal chest, corpses do not go unlooted for fear of accidentally missing the key in the mix.</p><p>Much like everyone else above, I feel this is a secondary issue, and a very minor one at that.  Dumbfire survivability would be much better received as a fix than weather or not we can max out our cast of Undead Horde.</p>

[boomerponc]

<p>Can I derail the thread, and say fix these crap spells after 3 years, please?</p>

[MackGee]

<p>Tox is probably the best example, the three 1st named all involve adds, but they disappear once they die.  While it's best for the devs to determine how to fix this issue, the spell will still never be used in ANY named fight in ANY of the SF raid zones by this necro until the horde pets can survive for the DURATION of the spell.    I say named raid mobs because even though most raid trash mobs don' t kill these horde mobs with AOE's the trash mobs fights last maybe 20-30 seconds so casting this spell on anything that's not a named fight is a waste.  Also, I don't care if there are 50 extra corpses and all 50 spawn horde mobs, if they all die within 10 seconds of casting the spell, the spell isn't worth casting.  Please first look fixing these mobs (along with the other dumbfire spells) to where they last the duration of the spell, then once that issue is solved, then worry about "extra corpses".</p>

[Eriol]

<p><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>while your at it Ooze pet? I mean seriously oooooze pet maybe you should take a poll and see how many people use it. Ive never seen anyone run this pet since Eof when it was introduced. Hey could make a dumbfire to dot aa and put it in the ooze pets place <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Imagine if that was a targetable buff, and not a pet?  Would it be worth it if you could cast it on the MT (cross-group I mean for raids) in group OR raid settings?  MAYBE then it'd be worth going down the line, but maybe not.  And if it only "may" be worth it then, then how bad is it that you'd have to sacrifice a "real" pet to keep it up?</p><p>Regardless, I agree with the sentiment of many here: having undead horde reach the maximum potential is such a minor-issue because of <em>every other major issue</em> with pet classes and necros specifically.  My top two have been the same for literally <em>years</em>: shared stats, and dumbfires being useless twice-over (due to dying if the mob looks at them with a negative expression, and not scaling with gear).</p>

[BadInp]

<p>OK, here's what I think would be a cool modification of this spell, addressing what I believe is both the the overall goal of the original question, and addressing the issues with corpses brought up by other players.  It would still need something else like aoe immunity, becoming a dot, a serious dps increase, etc to make people actually USE the spell again, but I think it would return the spell back to something cool with it's own unique flavor again.</p><p>Forget corpses themselves... but count kills.  We are masters of the undead; draining life, drawing souls... think of it that direction.  How about adding a spell component to Lich that, upon mob death, gives us a buff that would increase the number of minions in Horde for a certain amount of time... like an illusionist's perpetuity does with successful spell attacks and casting speed.   I'm thinking adding it to Lich because we always have it up anyway, and i'd hate to add another spell with the debuff component that we have to throw out just for this.  And like perpetuity, another mob dies within a certain timeframe the buff bumps up to two minions... then three... etc.  You would have to have a decent amount of time on the buffs to make it usable, probably limit the buff to 4 levels or so and give the rest of the minions at the start, or maybe have each buff add 2 minions for each level instead of just 1.</p><p>Of course, even with these changes it would still not be worth casting as others have said, because the lack of dps and the fact it never survives more than 2 seconds for anything but a solo mob.  But I think these changes would restore the 'flavor' of the spell.</p>

[Aleste]

<p>Well I guess we can look at the bright side. Horde is only useless every 8 mins <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Trangoul]

<p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>At Fan Faire, one of the suggestions was that we take a look at Undead Horde because corpses were disappearing too quickly making this spell less effective.  I didn't ask to clarify at the time, so I wanted to get your feedback here.</p><p>Is this a problem primarily in raids or not in raids?  I've been looking at the corpse timers and corpses with no loot will disappear in about 10 seconds.  Higher tier mobs will hang around for awhile even if they have no loot on them. </p><p>Is this a widespread issue and if so, where are you having the most problems with it?</p></blockquote><p>Instead making Undead Horde rely on corpses to spawn number of dumbfires. Make Undead Horde spawn a significant number of dumbfires based on the diffcultly of mob and con in the encounter.</p><p>Thanks at least addressing one of the many problems with necromancer.</p>

[Germs666]

<p>No corpse requirement.</p><p>Max number of minions cast</p><p>2-3 min recast (2 min if minions are not damage immune 3min if they are)</p>

[Maamadex]

<p>Leveling up my necro, I remember when i got undead horde and thought hmm. Every other 65 spell my other toons got had some usefulness to them, and in some cases, like Plane Shift on my friends conjy, they were incredible. The corpse requirement is just plain stupid. People clear corpses out fast as lightning in most cases, and like others have said, it being a dumbfire spell on a 8 min recast is bad as well, considering how wonderful dumbfires are atm. I like the idea of just having a set number of pets being summoned without needing dead bodies heh. It was a neat idea to use the bodies of your foes and making them your minions, but not practical. In its current state I don't understand how anyone couldn't see how flawed it is heh.</p>

[joseph]

<p>id say just make undead horde have a set amount of dumbfires. insitead of the whole  nearby corpse thing.</p><p>so say you make the corpses last longer liek 10 min , i doubt you would hear a raid leader say leave thosese corpses for the necro it helps their DPS..</p>

[Dharkone]

<p><cite>joseph wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> i doubt you would hear a raid leader say leave thosese corpses for the necro it helps their DPS.. </p></blockquote><p>We almost have the whole raid force helping us creating some form of dps why not have the raid leader give us a hand as well?? ;P</p><p>Although the subject of this topic is misleading. I believe this isn't about fixing Undead Horde, this is about fixing the timers on corpses.</p>

[Daelim]

<p>I like the kill count being added to Lich idea but its still going to be a useless spell that I will never cast.  the cast time is to long for the minimal damage it does so you are ALWAYS better off casting something else instead.  Instead of adding the body count to lich, why not turn undead horde into a buff and have it randomly proc a base number of minions plus one for each tick in the body count.  At least then I wouldn't have to waste time casting it when I could be refreshing something equally useless like vampire bats...</p>

[MackGee]

<p>Just incase ya'll didn't see the notes for the Test Server on Sept 20.  It's a very nice start for my favorite dumbfire...</p><p><strong>Necromancer</strong></p><ul><li>[Fan Faire Feedback] “Undead Horde” can no longer be dispelled. </li><li>“Siphoning of Souls III” should now grant the correct souls.</li></ul>

[Muris]

<p>They can't be dispelled, and this fixes it how?  They still die to every AE the mobs sneezes out.  Either remove the body requirement and just give us the full amount based on AA spent, or don't bother with it till you make Dumfire pets AE IMMUNE.  That is the one of the major problems with them, you cast and poof they are dead, sometimes as soon as you cast the spell.  They don't benefit from any of our stats, they melee like a level 1 warrior, and have little to no hit points to speak of.  The spells got taken off my hotbar this expansion because every raid mob has an 10k+ AE it seems, so it's just a waste to cast them even when you have nothing else to cast.</p><p>Turn it into Wake the Dead from EQ1, just let it be a pet for awhile, that would be more entertaining then the current cast and boom dead version we have now.</p>

[Daelim]

<p>I did a lot of training dummy parsing last night just to see what happened.  On the training dummy adding Undead horde to my rotation lowered my DPS by 1000 minimum every time I used it no matter where I added it in the rotation.  Adding the other swarm pets (Not including undead horde) lowered my DPS by about 600.  The only one that is actually worth casting is Vampiric Orb.  I was surprised at how much damage that little guy actually put out and the fact that you can cast it before engaging in combat helps it out a lot...</p>

[Garlin1]

<p><cite>Muris wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They can't be dispelled, and this fixes it how?  They still die to every AE the mobs sneezes out.  Either remove the body requirement and just give us the full amount based on AA spent, or don't bother with it till you make Dumfire pets AE IMMUNE.  That is the one of the major problems with them, you cast and poof they are dead, sometimes as soon as you cast the spell.  They don't benefit from any of our stats, they melee like a level 1 warrior, and have little to no hit points to speak of.  The spells got taken off my hotbar this expansion because every raid mob has an 10k+ AE it seems, so it's just a waste to cast them even when you have nothing else to cast.</p><p>Turn it into Wake the Dead from EQ1, just let it be a pet for awhile, that would be more entertaining then the current cast and boom dead version we have now.</p></blockquote><p>I agree, worthless waste of time making it immune to dispel.  Half the mobs out there have some form of AE and/or riposte which destroys horde.  In the end you have the "caster" dumbfires left and the rest are dead.  Make all the dumbfires casters and maybe. </p><p>Wake the dead would be great, oh hold on, they are letting coercers possess essence or whatever boss mobs now.  Face it, the roundtable of devs always returns to the enchanter class because they don't know what to do with them.  They decide on a path, utility, and then an outcry happens so they try and balance it again and well you get my drift.</p>

[Germs666]

<p>I'm so frustrated I just want to punch something! Undead Horde needs a serious revamp! The problem was not the fact that it could be dispelled. The problem is the LOW DPS/High recast means it's not worth casting!! (Necros actually do less damage now thanks to the pestilential rain nerf if you didnt notice)</p><p>Great Job devs!</p>

[Grimlich]

<p>Couldn't agree more with most of the things said in this thread. And as far as dumbfire pets being a derail here, that should say it all, the topic comes up constantly in every necromancer revamp thread ever made which should indicate to you by now that it is a serious problem. They have become completely useless which is very disappointing, especially since undead horde is supposed to be one of our better spells.  I understand these things take time but this has been a valid complaint since pre ROK.  I am personally getting to the point where I am just going to give up on trying to get you guys to fix this. I pay very good money 5 accounts to have these expansions and monthly fees.  My main is a necro and I can say for sure I will be leaving game before the next xpac if this stuff doesn't get resolved.  Dumbfire pets are a huge part of the Necro class and have been broken far too long. If a healers heal did not heal it would be fixed asap, basically who gives a crap about necros. Please get on the ball with this Sony. We have been more than patient in dealing with a spell that is both curable and destroyable and destroyed way too easily.</p>

[Soul Crusher]

<p>Instead of fixing Undead horde, which in all honesty was a ok idea, but badly implemented and not really viable in any situation. Change it to a pet buff!</p><p><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11px;"><strong>Mortifer Complexo(Deadly Embrace) Last's 1 Minute(possible improvement through AA) 3 min Recast</strong></span></p><p>Tank - Increases base/potency/critical amount of Pet Taunts, Allows pet to Flurry, Increases HP/Mitigation by 25%, Attack and combat art damage by 50%. </p><p>Scout - Allows pet to Triple attack, combat art and attack damage increased by 50%, Recast timers decreased by 50%</p><p>Mage - Increases pet damage by 50%, Recast and casting timers decreased by 25%, Each spell cast will proc a % group heal based on damage done(This will be a great cure for necromancers current Lifeburn issues soloing)</p><p>NOW this is just a rough idea i just concocted but it would be nice for us to be able to have a PROPER pet buff that we all would appreciate</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>At Fan Faire, one of the suggestions was that we take a look at Undead Horde because corpses were disappearing too quickly making this spell less effective.  I didn't ask to clarify at the time, so I wanted to get your feedback here.</p><p>Is this a problem primarily in raids or not in raids?  I've been looking at the corpse timers and corpses with no loot will disappear in about 10 seconds.  Higher tier mobs will hang around for awhile even if they have no loot on them. </p><p>Is this a widespread issue and if so, where are you having the most problems with it?</p></blockquote><p> remove the "corps" mechanic from horde and instead put it on a conj communion natural timer.   also drop lifeburn down to a 3 minute recast like elemental blast or boost it's damage by 45%.</p>

[Soul Crusher]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>At Fan Faire, one of the suggestions was that we take a look at Undead Horde because corpses were disappearing too quickly making this spell less effective.  I didn't ask to clarify at the time, so I wanted to get your feedback here.</p><p>Is this a problem primarily in raids or not in raids?  I've been looking at the corpse timers and corpses with no loot will disappear in about 10 seconds.  Higher tier mobs will hang around for awhile even if they have no loot on them. </p><p>Is this a widespread issue and if so, where are you having the most problems with it?</p></blockquote><p> remove the "corps" mechanic from horde and instead put it on a conj communion natural timer.   also drop lifeburn down to a 3 minute recast like elemental blast or boost it's damage by 45%.</p></blockquote><p>Even so, Ive seen EB in raids do almost 1 million damage, near instant damage and conjie doesnt have to worry about 100% aggro to himself, partially going to the pet. Where is the necro equivalent, in groups my LB will tick 14k on named/normal mobs in convervatory, and then i see a Conjie EB's for more than 50k a tick, and he doesnt have to worry about heals or possibly pulling ridiculously aggro and being just flicked and dying. Comparing both class's, its obvious one ability needs some major TLC or just a complete revision</p>

[Cisgo]

<p><cite>Indalecio@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>At Fan Faire, one of the suggestions was that we take a look at Undead Horde because corpses were disappearing too quickly making this spell less effective.  I didn't ask to clarify at the time, so I wanted to get your feedback here.</p><p>Is this a problem primarily in raids or not in raids?  I've been looking at the corpse timers and corpses with no loot will disappear in about 10 seconds.  Higher tier mobs will hang around for awhile even if they have no loot on them. </p><p>Is this a widespread issue and if so, where are you having the most problems with it?</p></blockquote><p> remove the "corps" mechanic from horde and instead put it on a conj communion natural timer.   also drop lifeburn down to a 3 minute recast like elemental blast or boost it's damage by 45%.</p></blockquote><p>Even so, Ive seen EB in raids do almost 1 million damage, near instant damage and conjie doesnt have to worry about 100% aggro to himself, partially going to the pet. Where is the necro equivalent, in groups my LB will tick 14k on named/normal mobs in convervatory, and then i see a Conjie EB's for more than 50k a tick, and he doesnt have to worry about heals or possibly pulling ridiculously aggro and being just flicked and dying. Comparing both class's, its obvious one ability needs some major TLC or just a complete revision</p></blockquote><p>   Actually, you have to compare EB to AD, Lifeburn is a pre-SoF ability. Yes, higher end geared conjurors are starting to eclipse 1 mil every 90 seconds with a Time-Warped Elemental Blast. The necro equivilant Accelerated Decay provides an extra "two ticks to dots" which doesn't fully "stack" with spells like UT. Speaking of Time Warp, the necro due to his low damage dots does not benefit from this buff like all the other DPS classes do.</p><p>  There is a multitude of reasons why the two summoner classes are unbalanced, I have been presenting them since SoF beta. It appears to me that the developers have thier own opinions and agenda when it comes to these classes or something would have been done by now. Asking about an ability like Undead Horde (Level 65) now when this ability has been an issue for years is a clear cut example of the lack of concern or understanding of the necromancer class. Presenting an excuse at the Fan Fair as to why Elemental Blast was made overpowered (suppose to terminate pet) is another example.</p><p>  The answer to summoner viabilty (after the brigand debuff plan was scrapped) was to give them Elemental Tox and throw a bunch of gear at them with pet stats. Without considering that the conjuror utilizes this pet gear much moreso than the necro. The necro cannot "buff" the pet like a conjuror and as a result the pet is approx 1/3 of his/her overall damage, the conjuror pet is roughly 2/3 of his damage. So as the conjuror obtains this plethora of Destructive Forces/Empowered Minion gear there is no mystery why the pet is hitting 1 mil with the EB ability. Now that even more gear has been introduced this week (T4 and new group zone) that number will continue to climb. The new T4 gear is just a mesh of the two sets, so now pet classes will gain ability mod, as well as the pet stats.</p><p>   I can go on and on about things like group utility imbalance (grp stoneskins compared to minor stat buff), 18% a tick necro health drain hindrances (Bloodcoil activated), no front-loaded damage, lower return on group buffs as compared to other DPS classes, single and group DPS inferiority to conjuror counter-part, etc. However, if the developers are just getting around to addressing Undead Horde, it maybe a few more expansions before we can expect any changes.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>yea since ROK the necro class has deteriorated at a steady rate and has yet to rebound.   conj have had several good abilities and game mechanics that have pretty much balance them but necro continues to be given dumb abilities and underpowered damage with over the top life penalties that NO OTHER class has to deal with.</p><p> i've pretty much almost completely stopped playing my necro.  not because i wanted to but instead because i was forced to by developers utter disregard for CLASS BALANCE.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>yea since ROK the necro class has deteriorated at a steady rate and has yet to rebound</p></blockquote><p>Having just betrayed from a Conjuror to a Necromancer, I have to disagree with you there. I'm doing about the same amount of DPS i did as a Conjuror (situationally speaking), and I just do not see the issues regarding health drains with Lifeburn, Accelerated Decay, Lich, and Blood Pact that a lot of people complain about.</p><p>The only three issues with Necros right now are:</p><ul><li>Swarm pets are too frail, and haven't scaled up in damage alongside main pets</li><li>Necro debuffs are fairly useless</li><li>Accelerated Decay doesn't stack well with Upbeat Tempo, due to DoT mechanics and not being able to stack an unlimited number of dot ticks.</li></ul><p>That's discounting other specific problems that also plague Conjurors mind you.</p>

[Cisgo]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>yea since ROK the necro class has deteriorated at a steady rate and has yet to rebound</p></blockquote><p>Having just betrayed from a Conjuror to a Necromancer, I have to disagree with you there. I'm doing about the same amount of DPS i did as a Conjuror (situationally speaking), and I just do not see the issues regarding health drains with Lifeburn, Accelerated Decay, Lich, and Blood Pact that a lot of people complain about.</p><p>The only three issues with Necros right now are:</p><ul><li>Swarm pets are too frail, and haven't scaled up in damage alongside main pets</li><li>Necro debuffs are fairly useless</li><li>Accelerated Decay doesn't stack well with Upbeat Tempo, due to DoT mechanics and not being able to stack an unlimited number of dot ticks.</li></ul><p>That's discounting other specific problems that also plague Conjurors mind you.</p></blockquote><p> Xalmat,</p><p>    I remember reading somewhere that you have not raided the Underfoot Depths. Running around on a necro solo or lite grouping/raiding you are not going to see many of the listed problems that plague this class.  If you just betrayed you cannot possibly have drawn a definitive conclusion and debate players that have been with this class for up to six years and currently attempt to raid hard mode/end game encounters on a nightly basis.</p><p>  I appreciate your attempt at helping, god knows the necro class needs a voice, and you are very vocal on these boards. However, a few days of playing a necro and then coming here disputing others is just plain silly. My advice to you is that if you truely want to "help" the class, get some gear, raid with mobs that dispel, and AoE every 10 sec. Try to keep yourself and your pet alive while dodging those same AoE's with your life drains. Raid with other DPS classes that are geared and do "much more with less" and are currently blowing away the necro class in DPS. Raid with some geared conjurors counter-part pumping out 1+ mil EB's every 90 sec, and you will find that a necro cannot do anything remote to that. Raid with Time Warped mage groups as a necro and hope your master strike is applicable, because that is your biggest registering hit to be applied by that buff.</p><p>  No one ever to my knowlege disputed that the necro is a not a very good soloer. With tained heals and lich it is one of the better soloing classes. These complaints are mostly from raiding/PvP necromancers and these issues are exacerbated as you raid harder encounters. This is what you must do before you come here and claim "all is well and equal", in your 1-3 days of necro testing and dummy bashing.</p><p>  Read my above, conjurors are expanding thier DPS at a much greater rate than the necro due to the SoF pet gear and the way they make much better use of said gear than the necro. Unless you have this gear, you cannot properly make a definitive conclusion as to the conjuror/necro DPS balance.  In reference to your life drains, this is not only an issue with the raiding necros, it is also an issue with the PvP necros. Go into Battle Grounds and see what you can do with those buffs active, you will not last very long.  In reference to your swarm pets comment they are usless to the raiding necro, once you raid some higher end/hard mode content you will see this.</p><p>  I happen to have the luxury of playing/testing both summoners, (and for more than a few days). I can see the issues and the positive and negatives on side by side comparisons. I have stated these and other issues of imbalance since beta and I have watched some get worse as this expansion rolls along. There are clearly several balance issues that the necro class suffers from, whether you are aware of them or not. I just hope you dedicate some time to explore the class, get the high end gear, the buffs, the PvP time and compare that with both classes and then make a more experienced, educated, analysis. Either way, kudos for your attempt and thanks.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>Wow, no offense but could you be any more patronizing?</p>

[Cisgo]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wow, no offense but could you be any more patronizing?</p></blockquote><p> I am sorry if you took what I said in the wrong way. I do appreciate what you are doing, however I feel that you need to spend alot more time into a class before you draw conclusions. I am always open to debates and am in no means trying to demean or patronize anyone posting here or on any other forums. Again, sorry if you you took that as my intention, or I came accross that way.</p><p> These necro issues can be very frustrating for the few that remain loyal to the class all these years in the hopes for positive changes and balance.</p>

[Germs666]

<p>Cisgo you are always 100% right on with every necromancer concern. I've been reading your posts since beta and also contributed to the beta boards myself. (albeit near the end)</p><p>We never got an explaination why EB had it's recast shortened when it was clearly going to be overpowered in beta. Just read the pvp boards it's not just jealous necros complaining about that spell.</p><p>It seems that the game mechanics are holding our dps bacK. Low damage initial ticks mean we get the least benefit from: Spell Double attack,Potency,Crit Bonus.</p><p>Since our pets also have low damage dots, they dont recieve equal benefits from pet gear when compared to conji pets.</p><p>Theres a huge laundry list of broken/useless spells but my main issue is DPS.</p><p>Conjis can out DPS necros on AOE and single target fights now. I'm not cool with that. </p><p>Sorcerors</p><p>Wizzy = Single target damage advantage</p><p>Warock = AoE damage damage advantage</p><p>Summoners</p><p>Conji = Single target/Aoe damage advantage</p><p>Necro = ???????</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>yea since ROK the necro class has deteriorated at a steady rate and has yet to rebound</p></blockquote><p>Having just betrayed from a Conjuror to a Necromancer, I have to disagree with you there. I'm doing about the same amount of DPS i did as a Conjuror (situationally speaking), and I just do not see the issues regarding health drains with Lifeburn, Accelerated Decay, Lich, and Blood Pact that a lot of people complain about.</p><p>The only three issues with Necros right now are:</p><ul><li>Swarm pets are too frail, and haven't scaled up in damage alongside main pets</li><li>Necro debuffs are fairly useless</li><li>Accelerated Decay doesn't stack well with Upbeat Tempo, due to DoT mechanics and not being able to stack an unlimited number of dot ticks.</li></ul><p>That's discounting other specific problems that also plague Conjurors mind you.</p></blockquote><p> you're not seeing the "issues" because you have not played the class long enough to see it's short comings or because you're choosing to ignore them.</p> <p>   the life drains hurt solo, with poor healers and in a pvp situation. </p> <p>  in rok with the massive "blue stat" boost both summoners lost out since the pet did not beneift from these but necro most because we lost 50% of our spell mod on 50% of our damage because of life tap mod mechanics.     also had a useless level 80 ability (vampirisim).   add to that the RoK dot vs. detrimental effects penalty and it's pretty easy to see that necros where useless in RoK.</p> <p>  then comes TSO with tons of healing and curing and you can see how necro being dependent on healers became an issue for the average necro that did not have the good fortune to be pampered by a raid force.   also the massive influx of pet "focus" gear that benefited conj quite a bit more then necro. </p><p> now we have SF and again necro was short handed on the end line ability (accelerated decay) along with lifetap and dot mechanics still not being fixed.  further more conj getting a lifeburn "like" big damage ability on a 3 minute timer instead of 5 minute. </p><p> btw.</p><p> why did you betray Sess,  didn't you have xalmat who was already a necro?</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> why did you betray Sess,  didn't you have xalmat who was already a necro?</p></blockquote><p>I betrayed due to boredom with the Conjuror class. And because I'm not raiding presently, my gear basically plateaued. I also fully mastered out from level 1 to 90. I <em>want</em> to raid, but at present real life prevents it.</p><p>Xalmat the necro never made it higher than level 50 something before the betrayal changes were announced. At that point i said "F it".</p><p>As far as lifedrains go, I just don't know what people are complaining about. At least on an epic training dummy and solo, with Blood Pact, Lich, <em>and</em> Accelerated Decay going, my HP never dips below 90-95% even with a standard spell rotation and not going out of my way to keep myself healed. The mana drain with Blood Pact going is pretty nuts i'll admit, but the HP drain is minor at best. Throw in lifeburn, and sure it gets very dicey. I sit at ~16k HP solo, with the three permanent life drains taking about 1k hp/tick.</p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>you're not seeing the "issues" because you have not played the class long enough to see it's short comings or because you're choosing to ignore them.</blockquote><p>Perhaps. But I <em>do</em> see certain weakpoints in the class, and I also see some powerful strengths. And I can conclude that Necros are <em>much</em> more buff and gear dependent than a Conjuror.</p>

[Rhadamanth]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> why did you betray Sess,  didn't you have xalmat who was already a necro?</p></blockquote><p>I betrayed due to boredom with the Conjuror class. And because I'm not raiding presently, my gear basically plateaued. I also fully mastered out from level 1 to 90. I <em>want</em> to raid, but at present real life prevents it.</p><p>Xalmat the necro never made it higher than level 50 something before the betrayal changes were announced. At that point i said "F it".</p><p>As far as lifedrains go, I just don't know what people are complaining about. At least on an epic training dummy and solo, with Blood Pact, Lich, <em>and</em> Accelerated Decay going, my HP never dips below 90-95% even with a standard spell rotation and not going out of my way to keep myself healed. The mana drain with Blood Pact going is pretty nuts i'll admit, but the HP drain is minor at best. Throw in lifeburn, and sure it gets very dicey. I sit at ~16k HP solo, with the three permanent life drains taking about 1k hp/tick.</p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>you're not seeing the "issues" because you have not played the class long enough to see it's short comings or because you're choosing to ignore them.</blockquote><p>Perhaps. But I <em>do</em> see certain weakpoints in the class, and I also see some powerful strengths. And I can conclude that Necros are <em>much</em> more buff and gear dependent than a Conjuror.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not too sure what some of the fuss is about.  You seem to have a pretty good idea of necro issues.  Sure, there are more issues, but I would say the dumbfires and DOT mechanics (which lead to issues like UT and AD conflicting and spell double attack) are the biggest things holding us back as far as DPS and you saw that right away.  The dumbfires pretty much give us 4 useless spells, when one of them is supposed to be our hardest hitting spell.  And I'm not too sure how much DPS EB adds to conjurors, but on a single dummy with AD, I can get about 16k max with spells < 20 sec recast, and without it about 14k.  So, it might add about 15% more DPS.  From what I've seen with some Conjurors, EB usually seems to add a lot more than that.</p><p>The life drains are mostly annoying, because in most situations our lifetaps can easily heal through them.  But the problem with all of those life drains is that we pretty much have to kill ourselves to do any damage (LB especially), and it's not that much compared to most DPS classes.  Even coercers, a utility class, can outparse us while feeding the group power and increasing our DPS.  And I think even inquisitors might be able to outparse us.</p>

[The_Cheeseman]

<p>What if Undead Horde were to summon 5 or so minions at a time, but for the duration of the effect, every time a minion died, 2 more were summoned to replace it? This would actually cause the spell to scale-up somewhat in effectiveness against tougher MOBs, because the more minions that get one-shotted, the more spawn to replace them. In other words, it would work about like it does now in solo situations (albeit a bit more consistently) while becoming significantly more effective against heroic or epic content. Plus, I feel that the "horde of undead that merely grows as you fight it" concept has a lot of traction.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What if Undead Horde were to summon 5 or so minions at a time, but for the duration of the effect, every time a minion died, 2 more were summoned to replace it? This would actually cause the spell to scale-up somewhat in effectiveness against tougher MOBs, because the more minions that get one-shotted, the more spawn to replace them. In other words, it would work about like it does now in solo situations (albeit a bit more consistently) while becoming significantly more effective against heroic or epic content. Plus, I feel that the "horde of undead that merely grows as you fight it" concept has a lot of traction.</p></blockquote><p>As awesome as that would be, it'll never happen <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Amanathia]

<p><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What if Undead Horde were to summon 5 or so minions at a time, but for the duration of the effect, every time a minion died, 2 more were summoned to replace it? This would actually cause the spell to scale-up somewhat in effectiveness against tougher MOBs, because the more minions that get one-shotted, the more spawn to replace them. In other words, it would work about like it does now in solo situations (albeit a bit more consistently) while becoming significantly more effective against heroic or epic content. Plus, I feel that the "horde of undead that merely grows as you fight it" concept has a lot of traction.</p></blockquote><p>That may be one of the best ideas I've ever heard.</p>

[Robaidh]

<p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>At Fan Faire, one of the suggestions was that we take a look at Undead Horde because corpses were disappearing too quickly making this spell less effective.  I didn't ask to clarify at the time, so I wanted to get your feedback here.</p><p>Is this a problem primarily in raids or not in raids?  I've been looking at the corpse timers and corpses with no loot will disappear in about 10 seconds.  Higher tier mobs will hang around for awhile even if they have no loot on them. </p><p>Is this a widespread issue and if so, where are you having the most problems with it?</p></blockquote><p>Seriously? You developers needed fanfaire to tell you this problem? Comments like this tell me you all are so far out of touch with the game it isn't even funny. Makes me question if you even play it. You've obviously never played a necro. Try playing the game. The problems are evident and blatantly obvious and have always been the same for each ability since their introduction as they have never been fixed or in some cases useful.</p><p>Answer me this Roth....Why is it necros are the ONLY class in game that has to pay major health penalties for any of their good dps spells? Why are they the only class in game that has to rely on another class (healer) to fire off their big dps special skill? Why are they the only ones whose special dps skill will likely kill them especially in raid if an aoe goes off? With these nasty restrictions/set backs the dps reward should be twice what it is.</p><p>Fixes needed:</p><p><strong>Undead Horde</strong> - remove the stupid bodies restriction noone else has a limiting factor like this and there are never any bodies. For there to bodies groups would have to give up the gold loot off the bodies this was not well thought out. It should always cast the max pets and be aoe immune or act like a dot. Without aoe immunity this spell is useless in raids as the pets are always killed within a few seconds.</p><p><strong>Lifeburn</strong> - Remove the dang life drain on the necro so we aren't killed by an aoe mid tap or dependent on a raid healer who may not be paying attention to fire it off. We shouldn't have our special be dependent on a 2nd class as conjies don't have that restriction. The other option would be to significantly increase the dps due to the death risks involved. Cast time on this needs to be similar to EB too as at the moment this takes too long to get off.</p><p><strong>Swarm pets</strong> - Make them aoe immune or spell dots. Without immunity they die almost immediately and are useless. What other class can have this happen to their damage spells where it just gets nullified by an aoe going off? Come on Roth you guys gotts think here this stuff is obvious.</p><p><strong>DOTS</strong> - Remove the tick caps and max dot size. Noone else has their damage capped. Allow spell da, tw and other such things to affect the dots. Straight nukers don't have these limitations and it is unfair to dot classes.</p><p><strong>Pet storage</strong> - If the pet persists through death now why in the world does pet storage not persist? This is irritating beyond all belief. It's stored for this very purpose for crimeny sakes.</p><p><strong>Main pet</strong> - Summoner pets need to be aoe immune if our dps is going to be so closely tied to them and used as an excuse to downgrade our castable damage spells compared to wizzies/warlocks. No other class can have their dps neutered by a single aoe then have to struggle through further aoe interruptions to get the pet back up to have decent dps again. Allow them to share their masters resists. When I possess my pet and see he only has 4k resists in a zone i need 20-25k to survive it ticks me off for lack of developer foresight.</p><p><strong>Fix tank pet aggro</strong> - Tank pets have not been viable for ages. They don't hold aggro at all even if using aa abilities to help. The tank pet should be able to taunt consistently and keep it off the summoner. Shared stats would help to fix this.</p><p>Get rid of all the stupid little this dps buff is going to cost you this much health per tick crap. No other dps class has all these health restrictions to do damage the necro has and despite all the extra restrictions we don't get more dps than they do for it. You all need to either get rid of the penalties or greatly increase the rewards for the risks.</p><p>Most of this stuff summoners have been asking for between 4-6yrs depending on the ability. It is sad we have been neglected and unfixed for so long. It really makes SOE and the devs look bad. Do me a favor Roth...go to test make yourself a maxed out 90 Necro with great gear and take it on a raid one evening and try to use all the abilities above. You will see in one night in just a few hours the truth of the post. These things are so simple there is really no excuse from development for their lack of attention other than not caring or not playing your own game.</p>

[Germs666]

<p>All valid points here. I think Conjurors are doing very well though they face similar issues, they have gotten much more attention because a developer plays one.</p><p>Obviously no developer plays a necro because if he thought this change to a spell would make ANY difference to anyone then he's playing WoW.</p><p>Sad to finally see a red name post on this forum and come up with this. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Rhadamanth]

<p><cite>Dallamar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>At Fan Faire, one of the suggestions was that we take a look at Undead Horde because corpses were disappearing too quickly making this spell less effective.  I didn't ask to clarify at the time, so I wanted to get your feedback here.</p><p>Is this a problem primarily in raids or not in raids?  I've been looking at the corpse timers and corpses with no loot will disappear in about 10 seconds.  Higher tier mobs will hang around for awhile even if they have no loot on them. </p><p>Is this a widespread issue and if so, where are you having the most problems with it?</p></blockquote><p>Seriously? You developers needed fanfaire to tell you this problem? Comments like this tell me you all are so far out of touch with the game it isn't even funny. Makes me question if you even play it. You've obviously never played a necro. Try playing the game. The problems are evident and blatantly obvious and have always been the same for each ability since their introduction as they have never been fixed or in some cases useful.</p><p>Answer me this Roth....Why is it necros are the ONLY class in game that has to pay major health penalties for any of their good dps spells? Why are they the only class in game that has to rely on another class (healer) to fire off their big dps special skill? Why are they the only ones whose special dps skill will likely kill them especially in raid if an aoe goes off? With these nasty restrictions/set backs the dps reward should be twice what it is.</p><p>Fixes needed:</p><p><strong>Undead Horde</strong> - remove the stupid bodies restriction noone else has a limiting factor like this and there are never any bodies. For there to bodies groups would have to give up the gold loot off the bodies this was not well thought out. It should always cast the max pets and be aoe immune or act like a dot. Without aoe immunity this spell is useless in raids as the pets are always killed within a few seconds.</p><p><strong>Lifeburn</strong> - Remove the dang life drain on the necro so we aren't killed by an aoe mid tap or dependent on a raid healer who may not be paying attention to fire it off. We shouldn't have our special be dependent on a 2nd class as conjies don't have that restriction. The other option would be to significantly increase the dps due to the death risks involved. Cast time on this needs to be similar to EB too as at the moment this takes too long to get off.</p><p><strong>Swarm pets</strong> - Make them aoe immune or spell dots. Without immunity they die almost immediately and are useless. What other class can have this happen to their damage spells where it just gets nullified by an aoe going off? Come on Roth you guys gotts think here this stuff is obvious.</p><p><strong>DOTS</strong> - Remove the tick caps and max dot size. Noone else has their damage capped. Allow spell da, tw and other such things to affect the dots. Straight nukers don't have these limitations and it is unfair to dot classes.</p><p><strong>Pet storage</strong> - If the pet persists through death now why in the world does pet storage not persist? This is irritating beyond all belief. It's stored for this very purpose for crimeny sakes.</p><p><strong>Main pet</strong> - Summoner pets need to be aoe immune if our dps is going to be so closely tied to them and used as an excuse to downgrade our castable damage spells compared to wizzies/warlocks. No other class can have their dps neutered by a single aoe then have to struggle through further aoe interruptions to get the pet back up to have decent dps again. Allow them to share their masters resists. When I possess my pet and see he only has 4k resists in a zone i need 20-25k to survive it ticks me off for lack of developer foresight.</p><p><strong>Fix tank pet aggro</strong> - Tank pets have not been viable for ages. They don't hold aggro at all even if using aa abilities to help. The tank pet should be able to taunt consistently and keep it off the summoner. Shared stats would help to fix this.</p><p>Get rid of all the stupid little this dps buff is going to cost you this much health per tick crap. No other dps class has all these health restrictions to do damage the necro has and despite all the extra restrictions we don't get more dps than they do for it. You all need to either get rid of the penalties or greatly increase the rewards for the risks.</p><p>Most of this stuff summoners have been asking for between 4-6yrs depending on the ability. It is sad we have been neglected and unfixed for so long. It really makes SOE and the devs look bad. Do me a favor Roth...go to test make yourself a maxed out 90 Necro with great gear and take it on a raid one evening and try to use all the abilities above. You will see in one night in just a few hours the truth of the post. These things are so simple there is really no excuse from development for their lack of attention other than not caring or not playing your own game.</p></blockquote><p>I agree with most of this, however:</p><p>1)  Lifeburn should still drain health, as it is possible to keep yourself up through the whole thing, and most healers with a clue can help you easily through it.  However, the damage it does it not that great considering what you have to do for it.  It should be affected by crit and crit bonus, same with a Wizard's Manaburn.</p><p>2)  There should be a limit to dot ticks as long as there is a limit to spell multi attacks, otherwise we would be getting more than the DD classes.  If a spell triple attack is available, increase the number of ticks allowed, for example.</p><p>3)  We have blood pact, so making our main pets aoe immune is already available.  The cost is a little ridiculous, but lich and lifetaps are usually enough anyway.</p><p>4)  Tank pet does need some help, but at the same time, I can pull aggro off of most tanks, even when they are well geared.  It would be a little OP if our tank pets could hold aggro very well.  Also, I can solo most names with the tank pet.  You just have to slow down DPS quite a lot, but then most classes wouldn't even be able to solo those names, and most would end up doing less dps than we do anyway...  And honestly I think the scout pet needs help before the tank pet.  It doesn't even do more dps than the mage pet on a single target...</p>

[Robaidh]

<p>Rhad I have to disagree with you on a couple points.</p><p>Lifeburn -  In a typical major raid fight with massive aoes going off that take half your health it is not possible to heal yourself through this. You end up having to just not be able to use it. Comper this to EB which conjies can use no matter what and the longer LB cast time it just isnt equal. Heck it doesn't even have equivalent damage cause dots cap. Wizzies may have a mana issue but at least their ability doesnt potentially kill them and take them out of the fight.</p><p>Dots need to be uncapped. Noone else has a cap and multiple attacks are coming in Velious for other classes.</p><p>Blood pact is another health sucking ability not worth the cost. 10% a tick is insane especially for something that should simply already exist for survivability of the pet. Health penalties of 5% off AD 10% off BP plus the ticks off Lich. All that health per tick penalty just to get abilities other classes get with no penalty is BS. I call that very unavailable as in a raid you don't want be sucking down your healers wards and group heals like that else they wont want you. Let alone you wouldnt need the pet aoe immune even if they let our resists go through to the pet.</p><p>Tank pet holding aggro being OP? That idea is contradictory and doesn't make sense. [Removed for Content] is the point of even having it then? Why not give us a hate transfer we can toss just on or own pet or something at least? Heck that would prob be better idea than waiting for them to code the thing properly taunting. AAs like Perceptor Command only work once then its back on you again it isnt efficient. I don't want to sit there and play healer for my tank pet not being able to dps at all cause his aggro generation is like playing with a lvl 10 tank.</p><p>I like the idea I just came up with there...Let my tank pet have an aggro link to me so all the aggro I generate with him up goes straight to it thus helping him hold aggro and making it a viable solo play option.</p>

[Rhadamanth]

<p><cite>Dallamar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Rhad I have to disagree with you on a couple points.</p><p>Lifeburn -  In a typical major raid fight with massive aoes going off that take half your health it is not possible to heal yourself through this. You end up having to just not be able to use it. Comper this to EB which conjies can use no matter what and the longer LB cast time it just isnt equal. Heck it doesn't even have equivalent damage cause dots cap. Wizzies may have a mana issue but at least their ability doesnt potentially kill them and take them out of the fight.</p><p>Dots need to be uncapped. Noone else has a cap and multiple attacks are coming in Velious for other classes.</p><p>Blood pact is another health sucking ability not worth the cost. 10% a tick is insane especially for something that should simply already exist for survivability of the pet. Health penalties of 5% off AD 10% off BP plus the ticks off Lich. All that health per tick penalty just to get abilities other classes get with no penalty is BS. I call that very unavailable as in a raid you don't want be sucking down your healers wards and group heals like that else they wont want you. Let alone you wouldnt need the pet aoe immune even if they let our resists go through to the pet.</p><p>Tank pet holding aggro being OP? That idea is contradictory and doesn't make sense. [Removed for Content] is the point of even having it then? Why not give us a hate transfer we can toss just on or own pet or something at least? Heck that would prob be better idea than waiting for them to code the thing properly taunting. AAs like Perceptor Command only work once then its back on you again it isnt efficient. I don't want to sit there and play healer for my tank pet not being able to dps at all cause his aggro generation is like playing with a lvl 10 tank.</p><p>I like the idea I just came up with there...Let my tank pet have an aggro link to me so all the aggro I generate with him up goes straight to it thus helping him hold aggro and making it a viable solo play option.</p></blockquote><p>Well I agree LB sucks in raids, but in most other situations, it isn't so bad.  If we have to basically kill ourselves to use it, it should at least crit or gain something from extra ticks or SDA.  I'm not sure it gains extra damage from anything other than hp buffs, and possibly debuffs on the mob.  And as far as manaburn not killing wizzies; it still takes them out of the fight because then they have no mana to fight.  Sure, an enchanter can powerfeed them, but that's the same as a healer healing us basically.  And I don't think I've ever seen a wizzy even manaburn in an instance (except maybe on the queen in cella).  That ability is worse than LB. </p><p>How wouldn't our tank being able to hold aggro be OP?  With tainted heals we can solo just about anything.  If it could actually hold aggro while we actually dps then we would be the best soloers in the game.  We would never run out of power, our pet would never die, and we could do good dps without having to worry about ripping.  It would be nice if it could hold aggro better, but I don't see how it should be a better tank than a real tank in even legendary gear.  It would be like having an assassin pet that could out-dps real assassins.</p>

[Rhadamanth]

<p>Undead horde should be changed to a dot:</p><p>-  For every dot ability on the mob, UH does x-y damage every tick up to z dots on the mob.</p><p>That way we don't have to worry about keeping corpses around, but it still allows for some optimum conditions to cast it.  And if dooming darkness gets fixed so it doesn't dispel because of the snare component, it would even give us a reason to cast it even if it doesn't do good damage by itself.  Furthermore, if the other dumbfires were dots, they would be even more useful as well.</p>

[Carthington]

<p>Lifeburn has, and will always be, a health draining ability...just like manaburn will drain a wizard's power...  I really wouldn't have it any other way tbh,  thats the purpose of having a high damage spell like that...  now it is generally agreed that LB damage needs to be on par with elemental blast...as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong, EB doesn't have a high risk factor to it like LB and MB do.</p><p>The trick with the tank pet really is to do minimal damage otherwise you'll eventually rip aggro off your pet...the taunt does need to improve, every once in a while, not too often, a mob in a multi-mob fight will tear off regardless and come after me...if the taunt can be encounter based, that would help with that situation, or maybe when hitting perceptor's command it would taunt the entire encounter itself.</p><p>I've stated this before, I feel we cast way too slow.  An improvement on our rotting line (necro tree) to improve casting and/or reuse would help.  Conjurors, again correct me if I'm wrong, have some of their AAs improve their casting speed on their Conjuror tree.</p><p>Dot tick caps need to be raised so that we can make good use of UT + AD.</p><p>Dooming Darkness...  Why is this spell NOT upgradable beyond lvl 51?  This would be very usefull in a raid/solo environment.  Yes of course it will eventually dispel off the target when its hit, but just think of the possibilities..</p>