Make wards undispellable [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Beef_Supre

09-02-2010, 11:47 PM

<cite>Taemien@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm pretty sure a reactive heal doesn't fire off all its charges when dispelled, it has been a while since I played a cleric but I'm pretty certain thats not the case.Now if you're pre-warding and letting your target or yourself be exposed and targeted before combat starts, well thats the same as being pre-hot'd or pre-reactive. Yes its going to get dispelled.But if you cast it in combat, just like the HoTs and Reactives, its going to be used up before it can be dispelled.Not telling you how to place a ward or anything. But if you're worried about dispells you need to be a bit more subtle with it.</blockquote>Be subtle about placing your Wards?Um, no.They have to be up before you get contact, otherwise you aren't getting 'em off. Slow as mud cast times, combined with not having nice things like Steadfast, mean that Shaman *HAVE* to cast them before they start getting hit.Druids have fast casts and their heals are cast throughout combat and just whenever the meter drops, Clerics can stand strong with Steadfast and load on reactives when Hp loss calls for it.. Shaman have to cast Wards before the hit happens, that's how Wards work. They have to be up before the damage starts.(EDIT: I'm not arguing that Regens and Reactives shouldn't be immune as well, I'm just saying Shaman get hurt the worst by nature of Heal-type with the dispel issue. )

Chakos

09-02-2010, 11:50 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>After wasting 2.5 seconds where I'm getting chain interupted my wards should not be insta dispelled by almost every class anymore, Absorb Magic Dispells them, Tease from Swashs, Cuss from brigands, Doom Judgement, Scourge, Scerene symbol, amung other things, That or give Shamans steadfast for PvP only. This is so dumb how much dispelling there is anymore.Absorb Magic didn't used to dispell wards neither did the swash taunt, I don't know why they were changed to...</blockquote>This change occurred when they consolidated resists; now Divine damage is considered to be arcane, which is what Swash taunt will strip. Of course this consolidation affected Brig's taunt, as well, which used to be just Divine effects and is now Arcane effects, too, so they also have a broader range of benefits they debuff with it.

Notsovilepriest

09-03-2010, 12:10 AM

Dahmer

09-03-2010, 08:37 AM

As a cleric and an avid bger i would just like to say the following:1. Our grp reactive takes the same amount of time to cast with capped casting speed~2.5 seconds2. To even suggest that our grp reactive is gone shortly after it's cast is complete bs~ A dispell hurts us exactly the same as it would you.3.) Consider this our steadfast is bugged, and has been bugged when stifled~when getting knocked up, and knocked back we still get interrupted aswell.4. To even suggest to remove dispells in the battlegrounds is so beyond wrong!5. To be honest~ after reading your post it sounds like A.) a brigand completely owned you and you came here to cry about it, or B.) A cleric or druid destroyed you in the heal parse. either of these two sound accurate?Don't like battlegrounds with dispells? Then don't play them~ simple enough Or! Start queing up with a tank whom you know and you won't have as many issues~ granted they could still get the ward dispelled off them~ but at least this way you or whom ever else didn't receive the dispell would still have it.I don't mean to be rude, but it gets frustrating seeing these types of threads everyday! People constantly screaming for nerfs towards other classes to make there role easier! Healing in the battlegrounds is not easy~ it's very heal and cure intensive and if your dealing with lots dispells supplement that lack of heals with something else~ ie emergency heals.

Notsovilepriest

09-03-2010, 08:54 AM

<cite>Dahmer wrote:</cite><blockquote>As a cleric and an avid bger i would just like to say the following:1. Our grp reactive takes the same amount of time to cast with capped casting speed~2.5 seconds With steadfast which is a totally different story.2. To even suggest that our grp reactive is gone shortly after it's cast is complete bs~ A dispell hurts us exactly the same as it would you. Thats false, I played my cleric a lot in BGs and know how false it is, Think about it, 1 AE hits 6 people in your group (Assuming no pet) or 1 AE auto hits up to 5 people which makes 5-6 triggers alone gone, Or 1 duel wielder auto attacks someone plus uses 1 CA be on someone Thats already 5 triggers gone assuming the auto attacks DA'ed<img src="http://everquest2.com/signature?characterId=1485224120&locale=en_US" width="490" height="163" />3.) Consider this our steadfast is bugged, and has been bugged when stifled~when getting knocked up, and knocked back we still get interrupted aswell. That isn't bugged, steadfast breaks if you move, It's how its designed, there is no bug there, and when stifled yes that is a bug but if you don't play any other healing type you still have almost no grip on how bad interupts are.4. To even suggest to remove dispells in the battlegrounds is so beyond wrong! I don't like asking for it, but if I'm expected to be able to maintain a group, I can't have my primary heal constantly dispelled, it doesn't work.5. To be honest~ after reading your post it sounds like A.) a brigand completely owned you and you came here to cry about it, or B.) A cleric or druid destroyed you in the heal parse. either of these two sound accurate? No, I just kept watching "Absorb Magic has Removed" "Tease Has Removed" "Cuss has Removed" "**** Doom Judgement Removes" a ton of my wards over and over again. I'm realizing whats happening to my class with so many classes with the ability to remove my healing spellDon't like battlegrounds with dispells? Then don't play them~ simple enough Or! Start queing up with a tank whom you know and you won't have as many issues~ granted they could still get the ward dispelled off them~ but at least this way you or whom ever else didn't receive the dispell would still have it.I don't mean to be rude, but it gets frustrating seeing these types of threads everyday! People constantly screaming for nerfs towards other classes to make there role easier! Healing in the battlegrounds is not easy~ it's very heal and cure intensive and if your dealing with lots dispells supplement that lack of heals with something else~ ie emergency heals. I've been PvPing on a healer since before you more than likely have been playing this game, because you come here on a high horse and try to put this under the every other "Nerf" thread, I didn't ask to removed the dispells, I asked for wards to be undispellable, nothing else, or giving Shamans a PvP only Steadfast(Which is a buff not a nerf) </blockquote>

Brynhild

09-03-2010, 09:49 AM

LOL steadfast is definitely bugged, and it is CONSTANTLY dispelled.. It's supposed to check every 2 seconds to see if you are not moving and then apply the buff for 4 seconds , so you can move for 4 seconds and then stop and it should re apply but it's not. It takes 4 seconds to apply it once you stop moving instead of 2, it isn't stopping interrupts very well at all, about the only thing it does is the stifle immune after being still for 4 seconds.When u got BG's full of SK's , mages, druids, rogues, etc who all dispel way more than they should, this happens. The resist consolidation really messed it up :/

Aleste

09-03-2010, 09:49 AM

Saying make wards undispellable is kind of like saying make dot's uncureable. Takes time to cast them right? dispell is part of what makes pvp tactical.

Brynhild

09-03-2010, 09:50 AM

<cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saying make wards undispellable is kind of like saying make dot's uncureable. Takes time to cast them right? dispell is part of what makes pvp tactical.</blockquote>not when the dispel is almost instant cast and comes back up super fast , that is not tactical , that is OP

Azol

09-03-2010, 10:04 AM

Yeah, make all DOTs uncurable as well, while you're at it. There is so much /crying on these boards nowadays I cannot believe it.Healers are almost unkillable even with their wards dispelled, but they do not like the "almost" part anymore.

Aleste

09-03-2010, 10:11 AM

<cite>Brynhild wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aleste wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saying make wards undispellable is kind of like saying make dot's uncureable. Takes time to cast them right? dispell is part of what makes pvp tactical.</blockquote>not when the dispel is almost instant cast and comes back up super fast , that is not tactical , that is OP</blockquote>Toss those words around a bit more maybe they will lose there meaning. Its not op its life almost like a using your biggest hit ca or spell when a healer has a damage immunity skill running. Dispel is not op all the junk that needs to be dispelled well thats a diffrent story <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Beef_Supre

09-03-2010, 10:47 AM

I think the whole point of this post is to point out that once sweeping changes were made to Resists, the actual Heal types became targets of the Dispel.Once this happened, Shaman were impacted the most because of the very nature of their slow-casting, pre-emptive type of Healing... Wards, and their lack of Steadfast type ability.The OP is asking for either Wards to be made stronger against these various Dispels, or for Shaman to have a little Steadfast-style help in PvP. Shaman really *do* get the short end of the stick in PvP settings, and anyone objective enough to step back will see it.... and no, DoT's have absolutely zero to do with what he's talking about. He's not asking for a removal of Dispels, he's asking for his Wards to be made fundamentally sound for PvP, since that's the basis for the Shaman class.

Beef_Supre

09-03-2010, 10:53 AM

.. and, personally, I think it *IS* pretty [Removed for Content] ridiculous someone can attack a target and dispel their actual healing.Not the same at all as removing the buffs like the actual Dispels were intended, before the Resist merge. It seems like an oversight to me, and maybe Notsovile's post here will bring it to the attention of the Devs.

NardacMM

09-03-2010, 10:58 AM

I played a Gears last night and did 20,000 damage in the match when i normally do 180,000+. I checked ACT and it parsed nearly 200k overall. Next match, the defiler was on my team and the assassin i was playing against, (who many people would say is one of the best assassins at 80-89) did about 10k. I think he actually gave up midway through the match and just afk'd.I think wards are OP, but I don't show up here whining about it. And then to see somebody asking to make them MORE powerful is just ridiculous.P.S. When will we see total damage before wards on the scoreboard??? I know a dev has responded to it here before..

Beef_Supre

09-03-2010, 11:02 AM

you're talking about an Ego issue with the damage showing up, and I've felt that way too.I play a Bruiser most days, and hate when there's a Shaman on the opposite team for the same reason.. you just don't see you own damage! hurts your pride.But, that isn't the issue being discussed here.What is being brought up is that changes to Resists have made Dispels do more than they were intended, and that impact on heal types.

Azol

09-03-2010, 11:04 AM

**off to create a new topic entitled "Make healers actually killable in PVP"**

hoosierdaddy

09-03-2010, 12:25 PM

<cite>Brynhild wrote:</cite><blockquote>not when the dispel is almost instant cast and comes back up super fast , that is not tactical , that is OP</blockquote>The recast for mages dispel (or absorb or w/e) is 20 seconds. Hardly "super fast" or OP.

Ralpmet

09-03-2010, 12:34 PM

<cite>hoosierdaddy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brynhild wrote:</cite><blockquote>not when the dispel is almost instant cast and comes back up super fast , that is not tactical , that is OP</blockquote>The recast for mages dispel (or absorb or w/e) is 20 seconds. Hardly "super fast" or OP.</blockquote>Wat?<img src="http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/1146/wutm.jpg" />

Odys

09-03-2010, 12:53 PM

The analogy with Dots is wrong, mainly because each time i duelled a single scout, even with tranqulity and spell aste i could never get rid of all the detrimental. So obviously curing will only affect a small portion of the Dot dps. But offensive dispell will strip a very large amount of the HPS, especially for warders, a bit less for reactive healers and even less for druids. If i remember correctly my warden serene symbol can even strip several effects at once.Seems like another proof that PVP is rotten from the roots.

Notsovilepriest

09-03-2010, 01:22 PM

I'm not asking for anything OP at all, I would be the first to admit an imbalance, while I Bg'ed on my Templar I begged for a DG nerf. I like a challenge but all the dispells have rendered shamans the 2nd worst or the worst of the healers in BGs minus maybe fury. Also to the person complaining about steadfast being broken, spec out of it then come back and complain about how bad it is after you learn what interrupts really are

LardLord

09-03-2010, 03:06 PM

Tez

09-04-2010, 02:19 AM

Spamming balm/cures and using the wards/ds from them as dispell fodder works for me usually unless I'm pretending to be a warden and tank 12 people. Some of the dispells really need a second look at as far as pvp. Doom Judgement can kma.

Mosha D'Khan

09-04-2010, 01:12 PM

<cite>Beef_Supreme wrote:</cite><blockquote>.. and, personally, I think it *IS* pretty [Removed for Content] ridiculous someone can attack a target and dispel their actual healing.Not the same at all as removing the buffs like the actual Dispels were intended, before the Resist merge. It seems like an oversight to me, and maybe Notsovile's post here will bring it to the attention of the Devs.</blockquote>dispells were intended to remove and benaficial buff which would include wards. they are and always have been modifed by the benaficial cast speed bonus (up until it just became one stat). most of the time it is just bad timeing when you cast it, but atleast it is one thing that helps the OP of healers in BGs atm

Avirodar

09-04-2010, 01:22 PM

<cite>Azol@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>**off to create a new topic entitled "Make healers actually killable in PVP"**</blockquote>Unless it is a warden, they are very killable, if you do not suck.That is all.

Notsovilepriest

09-04-2010, 01:31 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>dispells were intended to remove and benaficial buff which would include wards. they are and always have been modifed by the benaficial cast speed bonus (up until it just became one stat). most of the time it is just bad timeing when you cast it, but atleast it is one thing that helps the OP of healers in BGs atm</blockquote>Dispells like Swash Taunt and Dispell Magic were not intended to strip "Divine" buffs seeing as until the consolidation they didn't. There doesn't need to be bad timing when mages can just recast it every 10 seconds, same with swashes, and brigands. Healers aren't OP because of their heals, it's because of toughness, and still healers are killable now.

Corydonn

09-04-2010, 03:18 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>worst of the healers in BGs minus maybe fury.</blockquote>This makes me laugh.

Notsovilepriest

09-04-2010, 03:29 PM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>worst of the healers in BGs minus maybe fury.</blockquote>This makes me laugh.</blockquote>Why? Its very much true, I've personally played all of the healers minus fury in PvP/BGs and shamans have the least tools of them, have the most preventing them from casting their spells.

Corydonn

09-04-2010, 03:37 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>worst of the healers in BGs minus maybe fury.</blockquote>This makes me laugh.</blockquote>Why? Its very much true, I've personally played all of the healers minus fury in PvP/BGs and shamans have the least tools of them, have the most preventing them from casting their spells.</blockquote>Furies are probably the best healers when played right. Just my opinion there.

Notsovilepriest

09-04-2010, 04:02 PM

<cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Corydonn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>worst of the healers in BGs minus maybe fury.</blockquote>This makes me laugh.</blockquote>Why? Its very much true, I've personally played all of the healers minus fury in PvP/BGs and shamans have the least tools of them, have the most preventing them from casting their spells.</blockquote>Furies are probably the best healers when played right. Just my opinion there.</blockquote>I was just saying by from personal experience, so you could be right.

Notsovilepriest

09-07-2010, 01:44 PM

Also, I would like to point out, Shamans have the lowest Direct heals of all the other classes because of ward mechanics which are borked in PvP/BG anyways compared to the other specialty heals. Even with extremely good gear when I wear PvP gear my group ward is only 13k/6 people, which is just over 2k per person in group, which 1 undergeared person in the group will destroy a group ward extremely fast, also, pets do eat wards if they are not AE immune also and they tend to have extremely low mitigation which also destroys wards fast if they aren't dispelled within seconds. If wards are meant to be dispelled like this, shaman direct heals should at the very least be more in-line with others.

Yimway

09-07-2010, 06:36 PM

Just tossin it out here...Convert the ward to a heal on dispell? If the player/group is already full hp it has no effect, but if they are not, it applies some heal still.Add some % conversion cost if you feel its too much.2cp

NardacMM

09-08-2010, 09:38 AM

<cite>Beef_Supreme wrote:</cite><blockquote>you're talking about an Ego issue with the damage showing up, and I've felt that way too.I play a Bruiser most days, and hate when there's a Shaman on the opposite team for the same reason.. you just don't see you own damage! hurts your pride.But, that isn't the issue being discussed here.What is being brought up is that changes to Resists have made Dispels do more than they were intended, and that impact on heal types.</blockquote>I agree that it is a massive blow to the ego when you should have done 300k damage and you end up doing 50k. However, that is not the point of my post. If I am only doing 50k damage, then I am essentially ineffective in the BG. Using my Predator's Final Trick, going through each of my backstabs, using Fatal Followup and STILL not being able to kill the relic holder is a problem.

Beef_Supre

09-08-2010, 09:55 AM

<cite>Deverel@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Beef_Supreme wrote:</cite><blockquote>you're talking about an Ego issue with the damage showing up, and I've felt that way too.I play a Bruiser most days, and hate when there's a Shaman on the opposite team for the same reason.. you just don't see you own damage! hurts your pride.But, that isn't the issue being discussed here.What is being brought up is that changes to Resists have made Dispels do more than they were intended, and that impact on heal types.</blockquote>I agree that it is a massive blow to the ego when you should have done 300k damage and you end up doing 50k. However, that is not the point of my post. If I am only doing 50k damage, then I am essentially ineffective in the BG. Using my Predator's Final Trick, going through each of my backstabs, using Fatal Followup and STILL not being able to kill the relic holder is a problem.</blockquote>So you'd prefer that the Wards, and therefore the Shaman, are made completely ineffective? Wards are *supposed* to absorb a ton of incoming damage, the way to counter that in a Battleground is to interupt the Shaman that's casting them. I do it all the time. I frequently stomp the bajeezus out of any Mystic or Defiler I see and time my Knockdowns, Fear, and ghetto-Mez every time they try to Ward back up..What you just described is Wards working as intended. Don't like it? Kill the Shaman instead of the Relic holder. Same goes for Clerics or Druids. The only difference is with a Ward, you don't see your damage hit, while the other two heal types you do. Like I said, you are describing an ego issue, and I can relate but disagree strongly.Back to OP's point,These Dispels were only intended to dispel Spells that were tied to certain Resists, and with the blending and consolidating of the Resists, the Dispels now effect things they shouldn't. In this case, Shaman Wards.

NardacMM

09-08-2010, 10:00 AM

I'm not saying nerf wards. Back to my first post, I am simply saying that I find it baffling that anybody can complain about shaman wards needing fixing. Regardless of whether they can be dispelled, if they are absorbing 75% of my damage when comparing ACT & the scoreboard, then that means they are working well.

Avirodar

09-08-2010, 12:14 PM

If one arch type heal effect is made undispellable, they all should be given the same treatment.The highest "healing given" numbers I have ever seen in BGs, have come from shamans. This is even with wards being dispellable. So it can not be all terrible for shamans.

Bosconi

09-08-2010, 12:17 PM

Defilers and Mystics heal like CRAZY bro, all priests do...priests don't need any more uber buffing.

Notsovilepriest

09-08-2010, 04:29 PM

Ok, This is why wards are no OP and why they should be the only heals that can be undispellable<img src="http://a.imageshack.us/img829/4230/eq2000014.jpg" width="1440" height="850" />Ok, Lets do this math<img src="http://a.imageshack.us/img248/6914/specheals.jpg" />Only taking high ends since with 100% Crit anymore its nearly the only thing that matters and also ignoring all secondary effects on these abilities to the best of my ability(IE. no Kindered Restoration, Allied Prayers, and such things).This is all assuming my toons stats with my potency effecting the inspects and 85.9% Crit Bonus:Healstorm: (1304*(1.3+.859))*6= 16892.02 + (1069*5)*6 =48962.02[1st tick High end * (Base Heal Crit Bonus + Additional Crit Bonus)] * 6 Group Members + (Secondory Tick amount*5 Ticks)* 6 peopleCarrion Warding: (7124*(1.225+.859))*1= 14846.42[Initial Ward + (Ward Crit Bonus + Additional Crit Bonus)] * 1 (Since Its collective over the group) = 14846.42Holy Intercession: (1247*(1.3+.859))*9= 24230.46[Intial Heal Amount + (Base Heal Crit Bonus + Additional Crit Bonus)]* 9 Triggers= 24230.46Wards are already at a low heal potential(Which unlike PvE matters as much as effeciency since damage is spread out) compared to the other effects, While you throw in things like Steadfast into the equation to make it even easier, or AAs that improve the other abilities (The screeny shows 10% AA into group ward base) or the cast speed of Healstorm over the other 2. If shaman already low potential is grounded even more by the ability to quickly dispell it, then its going to leave shamans at an extremely large disadvantage.

Notsovilepriest

09-08-2010, 04:47 PM

I'm in no way saying playing a shaman is impossible, its better now than it has been in the past, but there are still glaring gaps when compared to other healers for PvP/BG

Laenai

09-08-2010, 04:54 PM

My 90 defiler has no problems healing a BG.My 60 defiler has no problems healing in PvP./shrug Don't know what to tell ya.

Notsovilepriest

09-08-2010, 11:19 PM

<cite>Karimonster wrote:</cite><blockquote>My 90 defiler has no problems healing a BG.My 60 defiler has no problems healing in PvP./shrug Don't know what to tell ya.</blockquote>How often do you solo heal, and you must not be going up against the tops of any class TBH.

Ralpmet

09-09-2010, 04:37 AM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Karimonster wrote:</cite><blockquote>My 90 defiler has no problems healing a BG.My 60 defiler has no problems healing in PvP./shrug Don't know what to tell ya.</blockquote>How often do you solo heal, and you must not be going up against the tops of any class TBH.</blockquote>Idk bro, tonight I was pushing out 300k+ heals per match tophealing by over 2x the 2nd highest, then a mystic joined our group and I was only healing for ~75k a match after that. They prevent way more damage then you're letting on, even though the wards being dispelled is pretty bogus.

Avirodar

09-09-2010, 07:22 AM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, This is why wards are no OP and why they should be the only heals that can be undispellableOk, Lets do this math<img src="http://a.imageshack.us/img248/6914/specheals.jpg" />Only taking high ends since with 100% Crit anymore its nearly the only thing that matters and also ignoring all secondary effects on these abilities to the best of my ability(IE. no Kindered Restoration, Allied Prayers, and such things).This is all assuming my toons stats with my potency effecting the inspects and 85.9% Crit Bonus:Healstorm: (1304*(1.3+.859))*6= 16892.02 + (1069*5)*6 =48962.02[1st tick High end * (Base Heal Crit Bonus + Additional Crit Bonus)] * 6 Group Members + (Secondory Tick amount*5 Ticks)* 6 peopleCarrion Warding: (7124*(1.225+.859))*1= 14846.42[Initial Ward + (Ward Crit Bonus + Additional Crit Bonus)] * 1 (Since Its collective over the group) = 14846.42Holy Intercession: (1247*(1.3+.859))*9= 24230.46[Intial Heal Amount + (Base Heal Crit Bonus + Additional Crit Bonus)]* 9 Triggers= 24230.46Wards are already at a low heal potential(Which unlike PvE matters as much as effeciency since damage is spread out) compared to the other effects, While you throw in things like Steadfast into the equation to make it even easier, or AAs that improve the other abilities (The screeny shows 10% AA into group ward base) or the cast speed of Healstorm over the other 2. If shaman already low potential is grounded even more by the ability to quickly dispell it, then its going to leave shamans at an extremely large disadvantage.</blockquote>Providing numbers is great and all. But you completely failed to take into account the effect of practical use.Shamans may have the lower "healing capacity" in terms of raw data, but they are without doubt, without question, the most likely of all three priest arch types to see the potential of their healing actually be used. Cleric and Druid heals get so much more "wastage" than Shaman healing, it is a massive variance you conveniently made no mention of.If someone on the enemy team pops a random, low damage AE on my group, it can devour almost all of my group reactive triggers, and only credit me for several hundred hp of healing unless everyone was on low health. As a shaman, you lose several hundred off your group ward, and still have thousands upon thousands of wards remaining in effect. If I am up against another cleric and their group is at, or near full HP, I will cast my AE nuke. It hits like garbage, but guess what, it uses up most of the group reactive triggers in an instant. The same tactic is worthless against a shaman.Wards have some significant advantages in PVP. They do not have a trigger count, they can deal with one big hit or countless small hits, and they take priority over all over modes of healing. There is a reason the "potential" of a ward is not as high as that of reactives and HoTs, and it is because of how powerful wards are, by design.Wards do not need boosting, as evidence by the numbers shamans can already put out in BGs. And if wards are made undispellable, the same should apply for reactives and HoTs.PS: Your group ward hits everyone in your group. It is not limited to 1 person or one trigger, like you claimed. It also appears you did not add up the healing given capacities correctly, by failing to include the heal on termination effects.

Uinael_Guk

09-09-2010, 12:48 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Shamans may have the lower "healing capacity" in terms of raw data, but they are without doubt, without question, the most likely of all three priest arch types to see the potential of their healing actually be used. Cleric and Druid heals get so much more "wastage" than Shaman healing, it is a massive variance you conveniently made no mention of.</blockquote>The waste part is the key issue which makes Shaman just as powerful as other healers with or without dispel. His chart is nice and all, but that's an absolute best case situation for both Clerics and Druids. With toughness and pvp crit mit, that 7k group ward + 4k single target ward + death ward (however much that is) is a lot to chew down before you dip into the 20k hps a tank or defiler usually has.Because of toughness and crit mit, yet no nerf to heals, Healers are already extremely tough to kill and being able to dispel them is one of the few tricks we have, which still isn't much to be honest.

EQPrime

09-09-2010, 01:28 PM

Your chart also doesn't add in the 1777*6 healing from the group heal you get from your mythical buff.Steadfast is nice, but it's broken on stifles and there are so many knockbacks and knockdowns that interrupts are still a problem. Plus, clerics wear plate armor and in theory have less avoidance than any other healer. If I were to run BGs without steadfast I should be interrupted more than a shaman would.Still, I agree that it's way too easy to strip wards and other heals, and too many classes have broad ranging dispell abilities (especially crusaders who have it easymode and don't even have to have a target to dispell all kinds of nonsense). I doubt they'll make any changes though because toughness and PvP crit mit have reduced the incoming damage so much that battlegrounds are a snoozefest already.

Beef_Supre

09-09-2010, 02:44 PM

<cite>Uguv@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Still, I agree that it's way too easy to strip wards and other heals, and too many classes have broad ranging dispell abilities (especially crusaders who have it easymode and don't even have to have a target to dispell all kinds of nonsense). I doubt they'll make any changes though because toughness and PvP crit mit have reduced the incoming damage so much that battlegrounds are a snoozefest already.</blockquote>That is really irritating, isn't it?Shadow Knight throws a few AoE and absentmindedly remembers to debuff everyone, casually stripping half the buffs you put on someone.I think the fact it's such an 'oh yeah, they also do this!' type of ability on such an incorrect class for it is what irks me. It reminds me of a little kid playing superhero.. 'I can fly, ok? And I can also shoot lasers from my eyes. Oh! And I want to talk with the animals. Umm.. also, I want..'It's a little off-topic, but bothersome as hell.EDIT: I wouldn't mind if Coercers, for example, had this exact same ability of AoE dispell.. it would fit their class. Crusaders, especially SK's having it, is just another feather in a hat that already looks like a peacock.

Notsovilepriest

09-09-2010, 03:01 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, This is why wards are no OP and why they should be the only heals that can be undispellableOk, Lets do this math<img src="http://a.imageshack.us/img248/6914/specheals.jpg" />Only taking high ends since with 100% Crit anymore its nearly the only thing that matters and also ignoring all secondary effects on these abilities to the best of my ability(IE. no Kindered Restoration, Allied Prayers, and such things).This is all assuming my toons stats with my potency effecting the inspects and 85.9% Crit Bonus:Healstorm: (1304*(1.3+.859))*6= 16892.02 + (1069*5)*6 =48962.02[1st tick High end * (Base Heal Crit Bonus + Additional Crit Bonus)] * 6 Group Members + (Secondory Tick amount*5 Ticks)* 6 peopleCarrion Warding: (7124*(1.225+.859))*1= 14846.42[Initial Ward + (Ward Crit Bonus + Additional Crit Bonus)] * 1 (Since Its collective over the group) = 14846.42Holy Intercession: (1247*(1.3+.859))*9= 24230.46[Intial Heal Amount + (Base Heal Crit Bonus + Additional Crit Bonus)]* 9 Triggers= 24230.46Wards are already at a low heal potential(Which unlike PvE matters as much as effeciency since damage is spread out) compared to the other effects, While you throw in things like Steadfast into the equation to make it even easier, or AAs that improve the other abilities (The screeny shows 10% AA into group ward base) or the cast speed of Healstorm over the other 2. If shaman already low potential is grounded even more by the ability to quickly dispell it, then its going to leave shamans at an extremely large disadvantage.</blockquote>Providing numbers is great and all. But you completely failed to take into account the effect of practical use.There is no way to account for this fairly. Unlike all the other heal types, wards get destroyed by 1 undergeared person more than a good geared, the others divy heals equally. 1 bad person can eat almost a full group ward in 1 hit. Thus, I didn't want to pretend to be able to account for it.Shamans may have the lower "healing capacity" in terms of raw data, but they are without doubt, without question, the most likely of all three priest arch types to see the potential of their healing actually be used. Cleric and Druid heals get so much more "wastage" than Shaman healing, it is a massive variance you conveniently made no mention of.This is also true, but as I stated in the 1st response, and the last paragraph of the quoted section, Heal Potential and Heal effenciency are much closer to the same in PvP since damage isn't mainly focused on 1 target like in PvE witih Intermitent group hits. If someone on the enemy team pops a random, low damage AE on my group, it can devour almost all of my group reactive triggers, and only credit me for several hundred hp of healing unless everyone was on low health. As a shaman, you lose several hundred off your group ward, and still have thousands upon thousands of wards remaining in effect. If I am up against another cleric and their group is at, or near full HP, I will cast my AE nuke. It hits like garbage, but guess what, it uses up most of the group reactive triggers in an instant. The same tactic is worthless against a shaman.This is exactly why your reactives don't need it, They are gone so fast it doesn't matter if they are dispelledWards have some significant advantages in PVP. They do not have a trigger count, they can deal with one big hit or countless small hits, and they take priority over all over modes of healing. There is a reason the "potential" of a ward is not as high as that of reactives and HoTs, and it is because of how powerful wards are, by design.No ideal PvP/BG group wants a shaman over an equally skilled/geared Warden or cleric, Ever wonder why?Wards do not need boosting, as evidence by the numbers shamans can already put out in BGs. And if wards are made undispellable, the same should apply for reactives and HoTs.PS: Your group ward hits everyone in your group. It is not limited to 1 person or one trigger, like you claimed. It also appears you did not add up the healing given capacities correctly, by failing to include the heal on termination effects.1) Heal on Termination Effects don't fire if Dispelled 2) A group ward is collective meaning the value is only applied 1 time, not that value to each individual, making it act as 1 target 3) I didn't include Kindered/Defiler Heal on Wards/Allied prayers because either I can't accurately compare the strength of the abilities since it's other classes AA's or in the case of the Myth Heals, doesn't apply to the other subclass.</blockquote>Again, While yes the numbers consider the best case, which is why it's Potential, you have to consider a common case for shamans of atleast 1 undergeared person in the group making a group ward almost instantly wasted on that person unlike the other heals leaving the rest of the group exposed.Also, with the steadfast thing, I played a Cleric in PvP/BGs fora while too and I can tell you from 1st hand experience that clerics that only play with that will take how powerful it is forgranted and only remember when it fails. It's much more powerful than you guys are realizing for PvP/BGs.

Ralpmet

09-09-2010, 05:33 PM

Once again, another post falls into the poor request file.What you've asked for;To make wards undispellable. What you should've asked for;To make all heals undispellable.Reason? People are going to come in on other healer classes and say "that's not fair." because quite frankly it's not. Another case of not knowing what you want or how to ask for it, +1.

Notsovilepriest

09-09-2010, 05:35 PM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Once again, another post falls into the poor request file.What you've asked for;To make wards undispellable. What you should've asked for;To make all heals undispellable.Reason? People are going to come in on other healer classes and say "that's not fair." because quite frankly it's not. Another case of not knowing what you want or how to ask for it, +1.</blockquote>I know exactly what I want, I know how to ask for it, and I know how not granting the same to other healers would have little to no impact over now.People think that a majority of healing from shamans come from casted wards, Majority is procs + Spiritual Leadership+ Runic Armor/Shroud of Armor, and the procs aren't coming from casting the group wards, it's normally the quicker cast group heals or ST wards.

Ralpmet

09-09-2010, 05:43 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Once again, another post falls into the poor request file.What you've asked for;To make wards undispellable. What you should've asked for;To make all heals undispellable.Reason? People are going to come in on other healer classes and say "that's not fair." because quite frankly it's not. Another case of not knowing what you want or how to ask for it, +1.</blockquote>I know exactly what I want, I know how to ask for it, and I know how not granting the same to other healers would have little to no impact over now.</blockquote>Doesn't matter what you think (you don't know that, I've had my emergancy reactives dispelled a ridiculous amount of times, but thanks for your concern for me) what you're asking for is a giant 12 page flame post because you've discluded people in your fix.In the future, if you want something fixed don't exclude other parts of the whole that would be effected and also need to be fixed. What you're doing here is like repairing a bridge;Ok, so the nails (wards) have been getting pried out by people looking to sell them as scrap metal (dispells), but so have the support beams and rails on the side of the bridge. Do you just switch to using plastic nails so they only steal the supports and guard rails? No. You're just asking for a flame post by posting in such a manner, and it's really a shame because it's something that should be fixed.And if you don't believe me, look how much of this discussion has revolved around "tools" for healing classes. Tools? Really? That has something to do with beneficial heals being dispelled? Didn't know that, thanks for informing the dev team of a bunch of random useless crap in this thread that is specifically asking for something that makes perfect sense.TL;DRBy not including all the priest classes you're just setting it up for a flame war between who's got what and who needs what. There's already plenty of topics about this, you can even revive some of the older ones if you feel like it needs to be done. What this post should've initially and still should be about is the fact that heals, which pre-sf couldn't be dispelled, are currently being dispelled with the resist consolidation. That's a tangible thing the devs can look at and fix, they can't go through these piles of posts about how unfair one class is over another, or what class heals the most. You want something fixed, fix the source of the issue, not just a band-aid over part of it.

Notsovilepriest

09-09-2010, 05:51 PM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Once again, another post falls into the poor request file.What you've asked for;To make wards undispellable. What you should've asked for;To make all heals undispellable.Reason? People are going to come in on other healer classes and say "that's not fair." because quite frankly it's not. Another case of not knowing what you want or how to ask for it, +1.</blockquote>I know exactly what I want, I know how to ask for it, and I know how not granting the same to other healers would have little to no impact over now.</blockquote>Doesn't matter what you think (you don't know that, I've had my emergancy reactives dispelled a ridiculous amount of times, but thanks for your concern for me) what you're asking for is a giant 12 page flame post because you've discluded people in your fix.In the future, if you want something fixed don't exclude other parts of the whole that would be effected and also need to be fixed. What you're doing here is like repairing a bridge;Ok, so the nails (wards) have been getting pried out by people looking to sell them as scrap metal (dispells), but so have the support beams and rails on the side of the bridge. Do you just switch to using plastic nails so they only steal the supports and guard rails? No. You're just asking for a flame post by posting in such a manner, and it's really a shame because it's something that should be fixed.And if you don't believe me, look how much of this discussion has revolved around "tools" for healing classes. Tools? Really? That has something to do with beneficial heals being dispelled? Didn't know that, thanks for informing the dev team of a bunch of random useless crap in this thread that is specifically asking for something that makes perfect sense.TL;DRBy not including all the priest classes you're just setting it up for a flame war between who's got what and who needs what. There's already plenty of topics about this, you can even revive some of the older ones if you feel like it needs to be done. What this post should've initially and still should be about is the fact that heals, which pre-sf couldn't be dispelled, are currently being dispelled with the resist consolidation. That's a tangible thing the devs can look at and fix, they can't go through these piles of posts about how unfair one class is over another, or what class heals the most. You want something fixed, fix the source of the issue, not just a band-aid over part of it.</blockquote>I've played both Cleric classes consistantly in PvP before, and both Shaman, and a random mix of warden. I know getting dispelled as a cleric does stink, but not to the level it damages shaman, and there is a reason for no PvP group that is trying to be "Stacked" for having a cleric + warden over a shaman... There is no viable need to buff the others in the process of balancing out a shortcoming for 1 subclass of healer.Since you speaking as a cleric now, Have you tried to cast a 2.5 second group reactive without steadfast with a good brig/swash on you, or a dirge with CoB up, or any scout/fighter with CoB up hitting you? Then you will know the exact reason why I feel this change is needed.

Beef_Supre

09-09-2010, 05:56 PM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote> heals, which pre-sf couldn't be dispelled, are currently being dispelled with the resist consolidation.</blockquote>There, how's that?I get what Notsovile is saying, but this one sentence .. slightly out of context, I admit, sums it all up perfectly. I agree, too, that all heals should be fixed.Maybe I should make it bigger...

Ralpmet

09-09-2010, 06:59 PM

<cite>Beef_Supreme wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote> heals, which pre-sf couldn't be dispelled, are currently being dispelled with the resist consolidation.</blockquote>There, how's that?I get what Notsovile is saying, but this one sentence .. slightly out of context, I admit, sums it all up perfectly. I agree, too, that all heals should be fixed.Maybe I should make it bigger...</blockquote>Can't take that one out of context, stands on its own. +1.And yes, believe it or not, when you have those classes on you they knock you back, resetting steadfast (you have to move around a bit before it'll set again, and while you're moving around you're not healing.) thus making it worthless. It's only worthwhile in situations where people are too stupid to knock you back and are just feeding into your reactive heals (the quick single target one, or your quick single target heal) and aren't burning you down. I don't have to see your side of this issue, it's a gamewide issue.Heals should not be dispelled by anything, or should any classes heals be dispelled. You should be careful in fixing this not to include skills such as Divine Aura, which would make them insanely op in pvp if undispellable.Edit: And also, steadfast is the first thing removed from you by dispell. And it's not even a buff you can see that's been removed from you, but you still have to run around and stand still and set it again. It's not nearly as useful as people make it out to be.

Crismorn

09-09-2010, 07:38 PM

Steadfast can be buggy, but its still the single best aa for bg/pvp that clerics will ever get.Play a priest without steadfast and then tell me how buggy and useless steadfast is.

Notsovilepriest

09-09-2010, 07:40 PM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Steadfast can be buggy, but its still the single best aa for bg/pvp that clerics will ever get.Play a priest without steadfast and then tell me how buggy and useless steadfast is.</blockquote>+1There we go a pretty widely agreed on "Good BG Cleric" saying exactly what I was saying the whole time.Also, Stop talking about steadfast like I have no clue what it does, I have said many times I know exactly how it works. I think after 2 different clerics, and 1 being both classes, I may know how that AA works<img src="http://everquest2.com/signature/1485224120.png" width="490" height="163" /><img src="http://everquest2.com/signature/1989060120.png" width="490" height="163" />

Cloakentuna

09-09-2010, 07:49 PM

Make Coercer reactives uncureable~

Notsovilepriest

09-09-2010, 08:04 PM

<cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Make Coercer reactives uncureable~</blockquote>Once reactives are responsible for keeping a group worth of people alive, maybe.

Cloakentuna

09-09-2010, 08:07 PM

Oh so its different because one's a heal and one's damage? Okay, I get it now.

Ralpmet

09-09-2010, 09:36 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Steadfast can be buggy, but its still the single best aa for bg/pvp that clerics will ever get.Play a priest without steadfast and then tell me how buggy and useless steadfast is.</blockquote>+1There we go a pretty widely agreed on "Good BG Cleric" saying exactly what I was saying the whole time.Also, Stop talking about steadfast like I have no clue what it does, I have said many times I know exactly how it works. I think after 2 different clerics, and 1 being both classes, I may know how that AA works<img src="http://everquest2.com/signature/1485224120.png" width="490" height="163" /><img src="http://everquest2.com/signature/1989060120.png" width="490" height="163" /></blockquote>You see this post? Exactly why this post won't lead to anything being changed. Are you just trolling or something?

Notsovilepriest

09-09-2010, 10:05 PM

I fail to see how it's trolling...

Ralpmet

09-10-2010, 03:10 AM

Well, for starters it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of discussion.Secondly, I do play a fury in t4 bgs, and surprisingly enough he doesn't have steadfast. Doesn't need it, I don't play defilers/mystics simply because I don't like wards. I don't know who's taking what damage, or what's going on in general with wards so I stay away from them. But knowing that once you have a ward up you've got plenty of time to cast the next one I wouldn't be surprised if I ever did make the last healing arch type i'd have no issues with it. I can think of quite a few aa's that clerics need for PvP over steadfast, and that's just from leveling mine up in straight pvp from straight pvp exp til level 50.Knowing that the quick cast reactive and heal together can keep me at full health vs 3-4 people I have no reason to believe that I'd need steadfast to cast a split second heal, sorry, I just don't buy it. This is a priest wide issue, Devs please consider fixing the dispell effecting heals, thank you.

Cloakentuna

09-10-2010, 03:15 PM

Notsovilepriest

09-10-2010, 03:57 PM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, for starters it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of discussion.Secondly, I do play a fury in t4 bgs, and surprisingly enough he doesn't have steadfast. Doesn't need it, I don't play defilers/mystics simply because I don't like wards. I don't know who's taking what damage, or what's going on in general with wards so I stay away from them. But knowing that once you have a ward up you've got plenty of time to cast the next one I wouldn't be surprised if I ever did make the last healing arch type i'd have no issues with it. I can think of quite a few aa's that clerics need for PvP over steadfast, and that's just from leveling mine up in straight pvp from straight pvp exp til level 50.Knowing that the quick cast reactive and heal together can keep me at full health vs 3-4 people I have no reason to believe that I'd need steadfast to cast a split second heal, sorry, I just don't buy it. This is a priest wide issue, Devs please consider fixing the dispell effecting heals, thank you.</blockquote>Are you really this challenged with understanding logic huh? Clerics and Druids in general are already extremely powerful and desireable in a PvP/BG situation, You mention a T4 Fury which is where they are probally at their prime of being utterly OP with their nukes and heals still being super strong and even before toughness was hard to kill until they ran out of power and hit like that teirs wizard almost. If you honestly believe there are better AA's for a cleric for nothing but PvP than steadfast, that makes me laugh and helps me better understand why you are spewing the garbage you do. Also, T4 you don't have 80% of the interupts from gear/spells/ everything else to deal with.Clerics/Druids in the least do not need a change from this if that is so much an issue for people to accept, I'd even be willing to settle for the undispellable going for Group Ward only. There is absolutely no need to buff the other healing classes. Thats like to fix the other fighters to be more in line with crusaders, you implemented a buff that while buffing the brawlers and warriors also increased crusaders and equal amount.

Beef_Supre

09-10-2010, 04:07 PM

<cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, for starters it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of discussion.Secondly, I do play a fury in t4 bgs, and surprisingly enough he doesn't have steadfast. Doesn't need it, I don't play defilers/mystics simply because I don't like wards. I don't know who's taking what damage, or what's going on in general with wards so I stay away from them. But knowing that once you have a ward up you've got plenty of time to cast the next one I wouldn't be surprised if I ever did make the last healing arch type i'd have no issues with it. I can think of quite a few aa's that clerics need for PvP over steadfast, and that's just from leveling mine up in straight pvp from straight pvp exp til level 50.Knowing that the quick cast reactive and heal together can keep me at full health vs 3-4 people I have no reason to believe that I'd need steadfast to cast a split second heal, sorry, I just don't buy it. This is a priest wide issue, Devs please consider fixing the dispell effecting heals, thank you.</blockquote>If heals become no-dispell, DPS spells and CC should be uncureable.</blockquote>Only if they were uncureable *before* the Resists all got merged. The issue at hand is that the merge effected more than it should have.

Ralpmet

09-11-2010, 12:02 AM

So you think that fixing things to how they were pre-expansion isn't how it should be done, right mr. mystic that plays both an inq/temp? (btw, i betrayed my inq to temp multiple times throughout his levels, so I do have more than enough experience with both classes. Early on the temp receives more benefit from steadfast than the inq does, as the temp doesn't get the option of converting the spells they have/haven't gotten yet into CA's.) And yes, for starters the ca aa's are far more important that steadfast in PvP, that is if you plan on fighting anyone back. Steadfast might be up there near the top of things to get, but there are definitely other things that are far more important. I've been pvping for years, you can say what I'm saying is spewing garbage but you're just thrashing your own thread, and like you said "Wards are impacted far more by dispell than HoT's and reactives."And the guys who are saying "cc should be uncureable". Do you realize that CURING and DISPELLING are two completely different concepts? And another thing, since you brought up how OP furies are in T4, why am I overhealing other furies by 50k+? Probably because I know my stuff I'd assume, but who knows. Must be that OP PvP gear he's wearing (/laugh).

Notsovilepriest

09-11-2010, 01:02 AM

I'm done try to explain stuff to you, In every post you will say how good you are at the classes you play, yet I don't know anyone that actually knows who you are. Your logic is so scewed its not even funny and you can't make anyone understand anything if they are unwilling to try.

Avirodar

09-11-2010, 10:39 AM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote>The occasional poorly geared player, with little (or even nothing) in the way of BG armor, is not reasonable justification to make wards undispellable. If you balance heals based on poorly geared power levelled scrubs that will be lucky to have 11,000 HP to their name (@ lvl90), heavy discrepancies will arise when the match consists of geared up players with pieces of BG armor. Poorly geared players are bad news for any healer class type, and not just healers, the team as a whole suffers them.I go into BGs quite frequently, and I often see shamans performing exceptionally well. They can easily provide a road block for an enemy team to get through, if coupled with a competent tank. They can heal like machines, and still put out some respectable damage numbers for a priest. The only healer type I would say needs some slight help is furies, compared to their warden counterparts, that could use a slight tone down.I do not know (nor do I have any concern for) how well shamans hold up in an open realm PVP environment. But in the set-structure situation of BGs, shamans are far from a struggling class. The results are in the numbers, for healers, and shamans habitually provide them, even with dispellable wards.In the world of min-maxers paradise, no matter what the standing of balance is, there will be a more popular option. Just because some players prefer a cleric or warden over a shaman, it does not mean shamans are incapable of performing well.If reactives, wards and HoTs were not dispellable prior to consolidation, but now they all are, it's worth asking the question on the part of all healers, as oppose to trying to get yourself "fixed" but aspire to leave the others "nerfed".

Kota

09-11-2010, 05:26 PM

wards are better in pvp than reactives by a wide margin imo. i use a group reactive in pvp and it totals for like 1000 healed. i get hit for 25 damage, it uses a trigger.

Notsovilepriest

09-11-2010, 06:00 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote>The occasional poorly geared player, with little (or even nothing) in the way of BG armor, is not reasonable justification to make wards undispellable. If you balance heals based on poorly geared power levelled scrubs that will be lucky to have 11,000 HP to their name (@ lvl90), heavy discrepancies will arise when the match consists of geared up players with pieces of BG armor. Poorly geared players are bad news for any healer class type, and not just healers, the team as a whole suffers them.I go into BGs quite frequently, and I often see shamans performing exceptionally well. They can easily provide a road block for an enemy team to get through, if coupled with a competent tank. They can heal like machines, and still put out some respectable damage numbers for a priest. The only healer type I would say needs some slight help is furies, compared to their warden counterparts, that could use a slight tone down.I do not know (nor do I have any concern for) how well shamans hold up in an open realm PVP environment. But in the set-structure situation of BGs, shamans are far from a struggling class. The results are in the numbers, for healers, and shamans habitually provide them, even with dispellable wards.In the world of min-maxers paradise, no matter what the standing of balance is, there will be a more popular option. Just because some players prefer a cleric or warden over a shaman, it does not mean shamans are incapable of performing well.If reactives, wards and HoTs were not dispellable prior to consolidation, but now they all are, it's worth asking the question on the part of all healers, as oppose to trying to get yourself "fixed" but aspire to leave the others "nerfed".</blockquote>Ok, I'm going to say this flat out, The only reason shamans are putting up the numbers they do is from for Mystics (Nox Ward + Runic Armor+ Spiritual Leadership) and Defilers (Harbinger Red Adorn+ Shroud of Armor + Spiritual Leadership) Which in itself is a scarey thing that I absolutely hate that so much of my healing is passive and not from me actually casting anything. While it does provide the numbers, those abilities/adorns are only masking a bigger issue, I'm going to run a few BGs and I'll show you

Notsovilepriest

09-11-2010, 06:57 PM

Here, Clerics I dare you to tell me again that you see the cast bar flash red this much...This was a bad BG, My team was 3 people that had almost no PvP Crit Mit or Toughness.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.wegame.com/watch/bg-5/" target="_blank">http://www.wegame.com/watch/bg-5/</a><object width="480" height="387"><param name="movie" value="http://www.wegame.com/static/flash/player.swf?xmlrequest=http://www.wegame.com/player/video/bg-5" /><param name="flashVars" value="xmlrequest=http://www.wegame.com/player/video/bg-5&embedPlayer=true" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><[Removed for Content]"application/x-[Removed for Content]" width="480" height="387" src="http://www.wegame.com/static/flash/player.swf?xmlrequest=http://www.wegame.com/player/video/bg-5&embedPlayer=true"></embed></object><div><img src="http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/2898/gears1.jpg" width="1440" height="869" /><img src="http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/8121/eq2000016.jpg" width="1440" height="850" />Of my heals, 28% From just being there with buffs up. 11% from Procs. This group did not dispell me other than the Defiler scourging me 2 or 3 times which is on them, If the warlock/Illy/warden would have dispelled more then I would have been much lower.PS. That parse was from the point in the video, Till the end of the match.Compare that to this, Granted its a bit older, but you will see the difference in interupts majorly<a href="http://www.wegame.com/watch/Onyx_Vs_TG/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.wegame.com/watch/Onyx_Vs_TG/</a></div>

Notsovilepriest

09-11-2010, 07:20 PM

Ralpmet Rages in PM's Again!"Ok, I get it, umad that you didn't roll a druid or a cleric, doesn't mean you should be a whiner about it and say their heals deserve this un-needed nerf. Just tonight my reactives were being dispelled off the relic holder before they were scrolling through all the heals and I had to rely on just primary and secondary heals to keep him up, but you don't see me qq'ing about it everywhere and whining that their wardens heals weren't being disped, I just suck it up and say all of the heals shouldn't be dispelled. And Ps. When someone talks like they know the game mechanics and offers simple solutions it isn't some "big boasty attitude" it's just keeping it simple. If by reading my posts you think I should be bowed down to then genuflect my toons when you see them on, don't call me out on some persona that I'm not trying to achieve [Removed for Content]."Immediately Followed by another PM with this<img src="http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/6761/eq2000194.jpg" width="1275" height="1002" />"Find me one screenshot of any t4 klak heal parse that beats that. Just one, I challenge you to, doesn't matter what healer heals it. Call me out on not being the best at what I do bro, do it."I'm sorry I couldn't give 2 craps about T4 "Leetsauce" and that I made you rage because I told you that your logic is poor, It's ok buddy!

Avirodar

09-11-2010, 09:57 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here, Clerics I dare you to tell me again that you see the cast bar flash red this much...This was a bad BG, My team was 3 people that had almost no PvP Crit Mit or Toughness.Of my heals, 28% From just being there with buffs up. 11% from Procs. This group did not dispell me other than the Defiler scourging me 2 or 3 times which is on them, If the warlock/Illy/warden would have dispelled more then I would have been much lower.PS. That parse was from the point in the video, Till the end of the match.</blockquote>So you were in a team with 3 complete scrubs, and you're trying to complain that 39% of your healing came from a combination of passive buffs, and heal procs? Heal procs and heal buffs are meant to do stuff (like heal/ward), believe it or not. Be grateful for it.You, yourself, compared your group ward to a cleric group reactive, so I will go along with that! In your parse, Carrion Warding done 16% of your healing. I pulled up a moderately-slug fest orientated Ganak parse, where I healed for 3 million, and guess how much my group reactive done for me? Atoning Faith (Trigger from Malevolent Diatribe, Inq group reactive) yielded 6% of my parse.Carrion Warding : 16%Malevolent Diatribe : 6%And you think the group ward is not good enough..? Right. And incase you were wondering, I was solo healer in my group, and the healer in the other group was Nagafen.Sifa, a fury. So I was not competing against wards.The smallest trigger of my group reactive was 12, then 15, then 23, then 37, then 58, then 73.. The list goes on with a massive pile of results in the 200 and 300 range, which chew triggers fast for very little healing turnaround... A far cry from the unmitigated theoretical capacity of reactive triggers, that you tried to use as evidence for group wards need special favoritism. The reality is, they don't. The group ward is fine, unless you want to try telling me that 16% < 6%?

Notsovilepriest

09-11-2010, 10:04 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here, Clerics I dare you to tell me again that you see the cast bar flash red this much...This was a bad BG, My team was 3 people that had almost no PvP Crit Mit or Toughness.Of my heals, 28% From just being there with buffs up. 11% from Procs. This group did not dispell me other than the Defiler scourging me 2 or 3 times which is on them, If the warlock/Illy/warden would have dispelled more then I would have been much lower.PS. That parse was from the point in the video, Till the end of the match.</blockquote>So you were in a team with 3 complete scrubs, and you're trying to complain that 39% of your healing came from a combination of passive buffs, and heal procs? Heal procs and heal buffs are meant to do stuff (like heal/ward), believe it or not. Be grateful for it.You, yourself, compared your group ward to a cleric group reactive, so I will go along with that! In your parse, Carrion Warding done 16% of your healing. I pulled up a moderately-slug fest orientated Ganak parse, where I healed for 3 million, and guess how much my group reactive done for me? Atoning Faith (Trigger from Malevolent Diatribe, Inq group reactive) yielded 6% of my parse.Carrion Warding : 16%Malevolent Diatribe : 6%And you think the group ward is not good enough..? Right. And incase you were wondering, I was solo healer in my group, and the healer in the other group was Nagafen.Sifa, a fury. So I was not competing against wards.The smallest trigger of my group reactive was 12, then 15, then 23, then 37, then 58, then 73.. The list goes on with a massive pile of results in the 200 and 300 range, which chew triggers fast for very little healing turnaround... A far cry from the unmitigated theoretical capacity of reactive triggers, that you tried to use as evidence for group wards need special favoritism. The reality is, they don't. The group ward is fine, unless you want to try telling me that 16% < 6%?</blockquote>You noticed I said I wasn't dispelled much at all even though they had 4/6 people that could dispell everything. That is when healing goes far down the tubes when that happens, as you said your reactives are already chewed through almost instantly, and while yes group ward can be powerful, As an Inq you know how much more powerful your myth click/group heal are, Shamans don't quite have that luxury. On top of you already having steadfast.I also want the days from when I don't know, My abilities did almost all my healing and not some AA/Item proc, It's dumb how much of an influence spiritual leadership has on parses for shamans, It isn't right.

Avirodar

09-11-2010, 10:36 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You noticed I said I wasn't dispelled much at all even though they had 4/6 people that could dispell everything. That is when healing goes far down the tubes when that happens, as you said your reactives are already chewed through almost instantly, and while yes group ward can be powerful, As an Inq you know how much more powerful your myth click/group heal are, Shamans don't quite have that luxury. On top of you already having steadfast.I also want the days from when I don't know, My abilities did almost all my healing and not some AA/Item proc, It's dumb how much of an influence spiritual leadership has on parses for shamans, It isn't right.</blockquote>So even though they had a 66% turnout of people that can dispel everything, it was not a problem for you? Interesting.On the basis of reactive triggers get chewed so fast (as you have said repeatedly), why would you care if reactives, along with wards, were made undispellable?You posted theoretical healing capacity figures a a couple of pages back, but in actual actual use, the group ward is doubling or tripling the performance of a group reactive, yet you want the group ward made even more powerful compared to a group reactive? Hardly seems fair.

Notsovilepriest

09-11-2010, 10:39 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You noticed I said I wasn't dispelled much at all even though they had 4/6 people that could dispell everything. That is when healing goes far down the tubes when that happens, as you said your reactives are already chewed through almost instantly, and while yes group ward can be powerful, As an Inq you know how much more powerful your myth click/group heal are, Shamans don't quite have that luxury. On top of you already having steadfast.I also want the days from when I don't know, My abilities did almost all my healing and not some AA/Item proc, It's dumb how much of an influence spiritual leadership has on parses for shamans, It isn't right.</blockquote>So even though they had a 66% turnout of people that can dispel everything, it was not a problem for you? Interesting.On the basis of reactive triggers get chewed so fast (as you have said repeatedly), why would you care if reactives, along with wards, were made undispellable?You posted theoretical healing capacity figures a a couple of pages back, but in actual actual use, the group ward is doubling or tripling the performance of a group reactive, yet you want the group ward made even more powerful compared to a group reactive? Hardly seems fair.</blockquote>I'm anticipating toughness being fixed honestly, Thats why I'm saying that, Once it's fixed reactives won't be as wasted, nor will wards last as long as they do if they don't get dispelled. Them not dispelling was them being dumb, Nothing more or less.

Crismorn

09-11-2010, 11:42 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote>The occasional poorly geared player, with little (or even nothing) in the way of BG armor, is not reasonable justification to make wards undispellable. If you balance heals based on poorly geared power levelled scrubs that will be lucky to have 11,000 HP to their name (@ lvl90), heavy discrepancies will arise when the match consists of geared up players with pieces of BG armor. Poorly geared players are bad news for any healer class type, and not just healers, the team as a whole suffers them.I go into BGs quite frequently, and I often see shamans performing exceptionally well. They can easily provide a road block for an enemy team to get through, if coupled with a competent tank. They can heal like machines, and still put out some respectable damage numbers for a priest. The only healer type I would say needs some slight help is furies, compared to their warden counterparts, that could use a slight tone down.I do not know (nor do I have any concern for) how well shamans hold up in an open realm PVP environment. But in the set-structure situation of BGs, shamans are far from a struggling class. The results are in the numbers, for healers, and shamans habitually provide them, even with dispellable wards.In the world of min-maxers paradise, no matter what the standing of balance is, there will be a more popular option. Just because some players prefer a cleric or warden over a shaman, it does not mean shamans are incapable of performing well.If reactives, wards and HoTs were not dispellable prior to consolidation, but now they all are, it's worth asking the question on the part of all healers, as oppose to trying to get yourself "fixed" but aspire to leave the others "nerfed".</blockquote>Ok, I'm going to say this flat out, The only reason shamans are putting up the numbers they do is from for Mystics (Nox Ward + Runic Armor+ Spiritual Leadership) and Defilers (Harbinger Red Adorn+ Shroud of Armor + Spiritual Leadership) Which in itself is a scarey thing that I absolutely hate that so much of my healing is passive and not from me actually casting anything. While it does provide the numbers, those abilities/adorns are only masking a bigger issue, I'm going to run a few BGs and I'll show you</blockquote>Most of my healing comes from procs, dunno what to tell ya.

Notsovilepriest

09-11-2010, 11:53 PM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote>The occasional poorly geared player, with little (or even nothing) in the way of BG armor, is not reasonable justification to make wards undispellable. If you balance heals based on poorly geared power levelled scrubs that will be lucky to have 11,000 HP to their name (@ lvl90), heavy discrepancies will arise when the match consists of geared up players with pieces of BG armor. Poorly geared players are bad news for any healer class type, and not just healers, the team as a whole suffers them.I go into BGs quite frequently, and I often see shamans performing exceptionally well. They can easily provide a road block for an enemy team to get through, if coupled with a competent tank. They can heal like machines, and still put out some respectable damage numbers for a priest. The only healer type I would say needs some slight help is furies, compared to their warden counterparts, that could use a slight tone down.I do not know (nor do I have any concern for) how well shamans hold up in an open realm PVP environment. But in the set-structure situation of BGs, shamans are far from a struggling class. The results are in the numbers, for healers, and shamans habitually provide them, even with dispellable wards.In the world of min-maxers paradise, no matter what the standing of balance is, there will be a more popular option. Just because some players prefer a cleric or warden over a shaman, it does not mean shamans are incapable of performing well.If reactives, wards and HoTs were not dispellable prior to consolidation, but now they all are, it's worth asking the question on the part of all healers, as oppose to trying to get yourself "fixed" but aspire to leave the others "nerfed".</blockquote>Ok, I'm going to say this flat out, The only reason shamans are putting up the numbers they do is from for Mystics (Nox Ward + Runic Armor+ Spiritual Leadership) and Defilers (Harbinger Red Adorn+ Shroud of Armor + Spiritual Leadership) Which in itself is a scarey thing that I absolutely hate that so much of my healing is passive and not from me actually casting anything. While it does provide the numbers, those abilities/adorns are only masking a bigger issue, I'm going to run a few BGs and I'll show you</blockquote>Most of my healing comes from procs, dunno what to tell ya.</blockquote>Procs from actually hitting buttons though atleast, which is a step up from what I have, Which is mass amounts of healing for being there, which I don't think is right.

Uinael_Guk

09-12-2010, 02:11 AM

I hope devs don't listen to the Shaman to be frank. I've done a ton of matches on my lock and feel Wardens and Shaman are the worst healers to face. I don't know why some actually feel less desirable than the rest... maybe used to being most wanted on raids to suddenly being relatively equal in BG?If a ward can't be dispelled, neither should a reactive or a HoT, plain and simple. There shouldn't be a 'shaman get special treatment' situation here because a few random defilers don't feel as powerful as they should. If shaman get that, I want repent to count with that, and I want reactives to save unused heals to xfer to the next trigger... oh and I want each tick of the gears thing to trigger reactives and repent :pBut the reality is, nothing should change on heals until they finalize toughness. Right now as it stands, being able to dispel a ward is the only way you can kill some of these defilers, and even that rarely works. If toughness is nerfed and healers are dying too easy (especially due to dispelled heals), then look into this thread imo.. but again, make the change for all healers, not just shaman.

Ralpmet

09-12-2010, 02:30 AM

Lol @ this guy, I started sending you PM's because I felt bad for you, I didn't want to call you out on being a [Removed for Content] on the open forum.More people agree that what you're saying is complete stupidity more than anything else, the heals should all be undispellable and shamans don't deserve special treatment. Go ahead and post all my PM's to you man I don't care, you haven't refuted anything you just whine about a new thing every time I point out why what you're saying is bogus, [Removed for Content] man get a clue.Edit:Lol@whining about myth clicky. I don't even have myth clicky on my inq it's not an automatic thing.

Mosha D'Khan

09-12-2010, 04:31 AM

<img src="http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac235/texasjavelin/eq2/EQ2_000058.jpg" border="0" />" />let me get this right, the person who started this thread feels like dispels needed fixing. posted this pic to hope and end this stupid debate. they healed for 200k less then a warden and was still over 1.3 mil in a GANAK match. you are whining that it needs to be fixed so what .... you top heal parse"..... have another one with a mystic healing 1.8mil in gears, if you want it too. all it is, is healers whining about a way they can die and want it fixed

Notsovilepriest

09-12-2010, 11:25 AM

I just give up on you guys, you bluebies an people that don't play a shaman in T9 do no fully understand why I'm asking for what I do and are just blinded by the fact that "My Damage goes down Vs Shamans on a BG parse" since it doesn't show that. I've played a shaman on PvP since May 5, 2006 and have seen when PvP was at it's best and seen my class decline over the years in PvP/BGs. I know exactly what I'm asking for and why I'm asking for them and those whom may not play the class may not be able to grasp the concept. I don't have a large support group since, many don't play shamans in PvP/BGs because it's easier to play druids/clerics, or just to DPS/Tank. I'm not just some noob that is asking for easier stuff at all, but trying to get my class in line for when toughness is inevitably changed. What's making wards appear as OP as they are, why they aren't dispelled is the assinine amount of damage reduction between the Indomitable stuff, %Mit Increase being bugged, and toughness, which is making them OP. Once toughness is hopefully either nerfed hard or removed completely, It's going to absolutely obliterate the power of wards.Also to person posting that SS. I looked up that BG, I was dispelled all of 22 buffs, With a min of 2 mins between each, and all sourced from the same character, I'm not saying wards aren't powerful right now if they aren't dispelled, I'm saying as of right now, wards are so much easier to render useless than any other heal, Mr. Rogue goes, "That CA did no damage, Ward must be up, /taunt, Ward down burn again" and such is absolutely rediculous, especially with the difficulty of actually getting a group ward up in the midst of combat half the time.

Uinael_Guk

09-12-2010, 12:28 PM

Oh boy, it wouldn't be a Naggy player without throwing out the ole 'bluebie' comment, like we're noobs and have no clue how PvP works.The best part of this, when I started a post complainin about crusader aoe dispel, which likely take away 75% of your buffs in bg's, your reply was this:<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=485220" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=485220</a><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, Adapt and overcome instead of begging for nerfs of abilities because it's annoying to deal with, It's annoying yes, but it's nothing more than that.BGs are both helping and hurting getting PvP things fixed. Helping because they listen to PvE'ers over PvP, and hurting because they listen to PvE'ers, who don't know what they are saying about different PvP things or just want it easier because they don't like the inconvenience, over PvP'ers who actually have been there done that and worked to figure out a counter or effect way to deal with stuff.</blockquote>So should you take your own advice? Adapt and overcome? Or does that not count when a pinky has a problem with pvp mechanics? Your own words.. aoe dispel is annoying to deal with, but it's nothing more than that.I'm tired of dealing with these hypocritical Naggy players who feel they're on some higher gameplay level because their server allows pvp combat. Please. I'd be willing to bet a large portion of Naggy players real pvp experience comes from BG's now, and it shows during matches. The whole higher gameplay level is gone now that us 'bluebies' have caught up in gear and for the most part, pvp experience as well.

Notsovilepriest

09-12-2010, 01:13 PM

<cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh boy, it wouldn't be a Naggy player without throwing out the ole 'bluebie' comment, like we're noobs and have no clue how PvP works.The best part of this, when I started a post complainin about crusader aoe dispel, which likely take away 75% of your buffs in bg's, your reply was this:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=485220" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=485220</a><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, Adapt and overcome instead of begging for nerfs of abilities because it's annoying to deal with, It's annoying yes, but it's nothing more than that.BGs are both helping and hurting getting PvP things fixed. Helping because they listen to PvE'ers over PvP, and hurting because they listen to PvE'ers, who don't know what they are saying about different PvP things or just want it easier because they don't like the inconvenience, over PvP'ers who actually have been there done that and worked to figure out a counter or effect way to deal with stuff.</blockquote>So should you take your own advice? Adapt and overcome? Or does that not count when a pinky has a problem with pvp mechanics? Your own words.. aoe dispel is annoying to deal with, but it's nothing more than that.I'm tired of dealing with these hypocritical Naggy players who feel they're on some higher gameplay level because their server allows pvp combat. Please. I'd be willing to bet a large portion of Naggy players real pvp experience comes from BG's now, and it shows during matches. The whole higher gameplay level is gone now that us 'bluebies' have caught up in gear and for the most part, pvp experience as well.</blockquote>I knew that quote would come up, It's an issue with everything that can now dispell, Not just the AoE dispell crusaders get, I had no problem when DJ was one of the few things that stripped wards, it's the fact now that every mage, rogue, druid, crusader, + can dispell them and in the fact of mages and rogues do it every 10 seconds or lower.If you think because you can do "Gear in a Can" runs(BGs) and you are magically well versed in how you play a class in those situations compared to people who have literally done it for years, Your either in the elite 2% or you're fooling yourself. Granted, players that have played a long time on a class can still be very bad, but more likely than not they have learned little quirks of the class and ways to counteract different classes in different situations.Also, With the whole bluebie thing I only said it since a vast majority of those saying anything about it are PvE players, Nothing more, I know Crismorn knows more about PvP than most of Naggy anymore and he plays PvE

Notsovilepriest

09-12-2010, 02:00 PM

Noticed the video wasn't working...Hosted elsewhere<a href="http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9802/everquest220100911172.mp4" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/...20100911172.mp4</a>

Mosha D'Khan

09-12-2010, 03:11 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Noticed the video wasn't working...Hosted elsewhere<a rel="nofollow" href="http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9802/everquest220100911172.mp4" target="_blank">http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/...20100911172.mp4</a></blockquote>can we get that posted on the other forum too pls, the one where healing needs to be fixed. you have 4 people on you, even if they are crap gear people you should not beable to out heal all that damage, not with the numbers that where being warded. finally they got you after a dispell went off, but like i said it is about the only way to kill a healer.... so either they need to do 1 of 2 things, either leave it as is and leave healing where it is, or fix the dispell and nerf healing/fix toughness so healers can die and not heal for millions on end. and if you get the dispell fixed i want DOT to be uncurable, why should i only get 1 tick out of 10 for all of my dots before they get cured?

Notsovilepriest

09-12-2010, 03:27 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>can we get that posted on the other forum too pls, the one where healing needs to be fixed. you have 4 people on you, even if they are crap gear people you should not beable to out heal all that damage, not with the numbers that where being warded. finally they got you after a dispell went off, but like i said it is about the only way to kill a healer.... so either they need to do 1 of 2 things, either leave it as is and leave healing where it is, or fix the dispell and nerf healing/fix toughness so healers can die and not heal for millions on end. and if you get the dispell fixed i want DOT to be uncurable, why should i only get 1 tick out of 10 for all of my dots before they get cured?</blockquote>You realize I'm playing a healer that is is the worst for doing what I just did, and only achieved what I did because when I dropped in I had PvE Quaility wards up worth ~24-30k and did you still see how fast they were gone and how hard it was to get another spell off, All the other healers are far more powerful.Also, Toughness is an issue that is making healers look overpowered, when it gets fixed, wards will fall far behind because reactives will tick for far closer to their max potential , same with regens, as a ward will remain static and just disappear faster due to increased damage.

Uinael_Guk

09-12-2010, 04:43 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I knew that quote would come up, It's an issue with everything that can now dispell, Not just the AoE dispell crusaders get, I had no problem when DJ was one of the few things that stripped wards, it's the fact now that every mage, rogue, druid, crusader, + can dispell them and in the fact of mages and rogues do it every 10 seconds or lower.If you think because you can do "Gear in a Can" runs(BGs) and you are magically well versed in how you play a class in those situations compared to people who have literally done it for years, Your either in the elite 2% or you're fooling yourself. Granted, players that have played a long time on a class can still be very bad, but more likely than not they have learned little quirks of the class and ways to counteract different classes in different situations.Also, With the whole bluebie thing I only said it since a vast majority of those saying anything about it are PvE players, Nothing more, I know Crismorn knows more about PvP than most of Naggy anymore and he plays PvE</blockquote>Why did it take you to Sept 2nd to start a thread about it? It's not new that mages, brigs and druids can dispel. Is it because us bluebies are 'adapting and overcoming' situations in pvp and you're upset you can't go into BG's and play as god-mode? I remember when BG's first came out and groups of Onyx members would absolutely destroy BG's, but now you're no more difficult to face than some random bluebie with full BG's gear.And maybe I am magically well versed how to play my class, or maybe it's just that Naggy players like to pretend EQ2 is harder than it really is. I've seen the Naggy chest thumping since BG's was launched, like PVP was soooo much harder to deal with than PVE. And while it is harder and different, this is EQ2 (one of the easiest games out there), and took me like a month to adapt to PVP lol. It's not complicated. I guarantee I could go to Naggy and take another week or two to fully adapt to what little open pvp i'm sure there is on that server. My point was simple. Naggy players get worked up when anyone else suggests changes, but the second you're not god-mode, you want things changed to your favor. It's a joke. And your video does nothing to help your cause. You jump in, ALONE, to a full group of players, get pounded for almost a full minute by 2 scouts + 1 caster and possibly another dps out of range and expect that to prove anything? You got interrupted a lot, but guess what, that happens. Warlock is no different, I see just as many interrupts as you do. Maybe i'm not keeping my group alive, but like you said, "adapt and overcome" situations. A good way to not get interrupted like that and get killed would be to not jump into a full group of dps w/o a tank. That was a god-mode Naggy move to think you can survive that and cry when you can't.Sorry for being blunt but this thread is a joke and i'm shocked the whining is coming from someone supposedly so experienced in pvp.

Zacarus

09-12-2010, 04:45 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>can we get that posted on the other forum too pls, the one where healing needs to be fixed. you have 4 people on you, even if they are crap gear people you should not beable to out heal all that damage, not with the numbers that where being warded. finally they got you after a dispell went off, but like i said it is about the only way to kill a healer.... so either they need to do 1 of 2 things, either leave it as is and leave healing where it is, or fix the dispell and nerf healing/fix toughness so healers can die and not heal for millions on end. and if you get the dispell fixed i want DOT to be uncurable, why should i only get 1 tick out of 10 for all of my dots before they get cured?</blockquote>You realize I'm playing a healer that is is the worst for doing what I just did, and only achieved what I did because when I dropped in I had PvE Quaility wards up worth ~24-30k and did you still see how fast they were gone and how hard it was to get another spell off, All the other healers are far more powerful.Also, Toughness is an issue that is making healers look overpowered, when it gets fixed, wards will fall far behind because reactives will tick for far closer to their max potential , same with regens, as a ward will remain static and just disappear faster due to increased damage.</blockquote>There is no reason a ward should be dispel-able. The slowest casting, most interruptable healer can have their primary heal easily nullified? Just wrong.While the video demonstrates a player with skill, any nub warden or cleric could do better... ie, last longer ... much longer, in the same situation.--Wakantaps what ui is that?

Avirodar

09-12-2010, 09:13 PM

<cite>Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no reason a ward should be dispel-able. The slowest casting, most interruptable healer can have their primary heal easily nullified? Just wrong.While the video demonstrates a player with skill, any nub warden or cleric could do better... ie, last longer ... much longer, in the same situation.--Wakantaps what ui is that?</blockquote>Shamans share the same base casting speeds as clerics. Not faster, not slower, the same.You are one of many who have no idea what they are talking about, when it comes to priest casting speeds. If you only commented on being more prone to interrupts you would be right, but adding the cast speed comment diminished your credibility.Have a nice day.

Davngr1

09-12-2010, 09:36 PM

i agre that wards should not be dispeled but would rather they allow me to cast RoA on my self tbh.

Zacarus

09-12-2010, 10:18 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no reason a ward should be dispel-able. The slowest casting, most interruptable healer can have their primary heal easily nullified? Just wrong.While the video demonstrates a player with skill, any nub warden or cleric could do better... ie, last longer ... much longer, in the same situation.--Wakantaps what ui is that?</blockquote>Shamans share the same base casting speeds as clerics. Not faster, not slower, the same.You are one of many who have no idea what they are talking about, when it comes to priest casting speeds. If you only commented on being more prone to interrupts you would be right, but adding the cast speed comment diminished your credibility.Have a nice day.</blockquote>Clerics have lots of goodies to speed up their casting... int line on cleric tree and cleric line on shadows tree come to mind. Also cleric fast casting buff affects themselves, whereas shaman's do not. So, while shamans, and defilers in particular can speed up their casting, they don't cast as fast as clerics.If you are level 15, then yeah, but otherwise, no.

Ralpmet

09-12-2010, 10:33 PM

<cite>Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no reason a ward should be dispel-able. The slowest casting, most interruptable healer can have their primary heal easily nullified? Just wrong.While the video demonstrates a player with skill, any nub warden or cleric could do better... ie, last longer ... much longer, in the same situation.--Wakantaps what ui is that?</blockquote>Shamans share the same base casting speeds as clerics. Not faster, not slower, the same.You are one of many who have no idea what they are talking about, when it comes to priest casting speeds. If you only commented on being more prone to interrupts you would be right, but adding the cast speed comment diminished your credibility.Have a nice day.</blockquote>Clerics have lots of goodies to speed up their casting... int line on cleric tree and cleric line on shadows tree come to mind. Also cleric fast casting buff affects themselves, whereas shaman's do not. So, while shamans, and defilers in particular can speed up their casting, they don't cast as fast as clerics.If you are level 15, then yeah, but otherwise, no.</blockquote>As a PvP specced inq I can tell you that going down the int line is pretty dumb, and as someone who has a 90 toon I can tell you that both classes easily cap their casting speed, even with pure trash 90 gear. There is no difference between them.edit: Here comes the QQ about steadfast, which has absolutely nothing to do with casting speed.

Notsovilepriest

09-12-2010, 10:40 PM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no reason a ward should be dispel-able. The slowest casting, most interruptable healer can have their primary heal easily nullified? Just wrong.While the video demonstrates a player with skill, any nub warden or cleric could do better... ie, last longer ... much longer, in the same situation.--Wakantaps what ui is that?</blockquote>Shamans share the same base casting speeds as clerics. Not faster, not slower, the same.You are one of many who have no idea what they are talking about, when it comes to priest casting speeds. If you only commented on being more prone to interrupts you would be right, but adding the cast speed comment diminished your credibility.Have a nice day.</blockquote>Clerics have lots of goodies to speed up their casting... int line on cleric tree and cleric line on shadows tree come to mind. Also cleric fast casting buff affects themselves, whereas shaman's do not. So, while shamans, and defilers in particular can speed up their casting, they don't cast as fast as clerics.If you are level 15, then yeah, but otherwise, no.</blockquote>As a PvP specced inq I can tell you that going down the int line is pretty dumb, and as someone who has a 90 toon I can tell you that both classes easily cap their casting speed, even with pure trash 90 gear. There is no difference between them.edit: Here comes the QQ about steadfast, which has absolutely nothing to do with casting speed. </blockquote>Inq yes, Easy to cap without good gear and without int(30% Cast Speed/Reuse from Myth+Heal Stance Alone), Templar is a bit hardered but achievable I think, The fact remains, Watch the video, I guarantee you that the cast bar doesn't flash like that so often from being interupted for any healer other than shamans, If you don't let us keep a ward up after we can manage to cast it, We will become useless to any good player who knows to just dispell who he wants to kill.

Notsovilepriest

09-12-2010, 10:43 PM

Also, RoA castable on yourself would do next to nothing for a shaman in BG/PvP to fix any issue with the class.

Zacarus

09-12-2010, 11:26 PM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no reason a ward should be dispel-able. The slowest casting, most interruptable healer can have their primary heal easily nullified? Just wrong.While the video demonstrates a player with skill, any nub warden or cleric could do better... ie, last longer ... much longer, in the same situation.--Wakantaps what ui is that?</blockquote>Shamans share the same base casting speeds as clerics. Not faster, not slower, the same.You are one of many who have no idea what they are talking about, when it comes to priest casting speeds. If you only commented on being more prone to interrupts you would be right, but adding the cast speed comment diminished your credibility.Have a nice day.</blockquote>Clerics have lots of goodies to speed up their casting... int line on cleric tree and cleric line on shadows tree come to mind. Also cleric fast casting buff affects themselves, whereas shaman's do not. So, while shamans, and defilers in particular can speed up their casting, they don't cast as fast as clerics.If you are level 15, then yeah, but otherwise, no.</blockquote>As a PvP specced inq I can tell you that going down the int line is pretty dumb, and as someone who has a 90 toon I can tell you that both classes easily cap their casting speed, even with pure trash 90 gear. There is no difference between them.edit: Here comes the QQ about steadfast, which has absolutely nothing to do with casting speed. </blockquote>Not being interrupted has everything to do with casting speed.

Uinael_Guk

09-13-2010, 12:19 AM

steadfast is pretty overrated. While nice, you need to remain still which isn't guaranteed. You need to be standing still for a few seconds before it even activates, and that's no easy task in BG's lol. If that Defiler's QQ works i'm going to QQ about making steadfast a permanent ability!

Avirodar

09-13-2010, 01:22 AM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Inq yes, Easy to cap without good gear and without int(30% Cast Speed/Reuse from Myth+Heal Stance Alone), Templar is a bit hardered but achievable I think, The fact remains, Watch the video, I guarantee you that the cast bar doesn't flash like that so often from being interupted for any healer other than shamans, If you don't let us keep a ward up after we can manage to cast it, We will become useless to any good player who knows to just dispell who he wants to kill.</blockquote>There is plenty in the way of casting speed adornments, and equipment, that makes getting your casting speed very fast, very easy. If casting speed is a problem for you, you're doing something wrong.

Notsovilepriest

09-13-2010, 01:51 AM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Inq yes, Easy to cap without good gear and without int(30% Cast Speed/Reuse from Myth+Heal Stance Alone), Templar is a bit hardered but achievable I think, The fact remains, Watch the video, I guarantee you that the cast bar doesn't flash like that so often from being interupted for any healer other than shamans, If you don't let us keep a ward up after we can manage to cast it, We will become useless to any good player who knows to just dispell who he wants to kill.</blockquote>There is plenty in the way of casting speed adornments, and equipment, that makes getting your casting speed very fast, very easy. If casting speed is a problem for you, you're doing something wrong.</blockquote>I am capped, but still, Inq does have it extremely easy to cap that.

Avirodar

09-13-2010, 02:39 AM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Inq yes, Easy to cap without good gear and without int(30% Cast Speed/Reuse from Myth+Heal Stance Alone), Templar is a bit hardered but achievable I think, The fact remains, Watch the video, I guarantee you that the cast bar doesn't flash like that so often from being interupted for any healer other than shamans, If you don't let us keep a ward up after we can manage to cast it, We will become useless to any good player who knows to just dispell who he wants to kill.</blockquote>There is plenty in the way of casting speed adornments, and equipment, that makes getting your casting speed very fast, very easy. If casting speed is a problem for you, you're doing something wrong.</blockquote>I am capped, but still, Inq does have it extremely easy to cap that.</blockquote>So...You are capped on cast speed, meaning the cast time on your group ward is the same as the cast time on my group reactive.As I said, shamans are not the slowest casting priest. Thank you for supporting my statement.

Davngr1

09-13-2010, 03:45 AM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, RoA castable on yourself would do next to nothing for a shaman in BG/PvP to fix any issue with the class.</blockquote>how will 33% cast, recast and recovery not help in a pvp setting?

Notsovilepriest

09-13-2010, 11:50 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, RoA castable on yourself would do next to nothing for a shaman in BG/PvP to fix any issue with the class.</blockquote>how will 33% cast, recast and recovery not help in a pvp setting?</blockquote>cast speed is already capped and the other 2 do little to nothing to remedy the wards being flat out removed, or getting chain onterupted trying to cast. Also person complaining about steadfast, spec out for 1 week, and bg, then come back and try to say it isn't good

Uinael_Guk

09-13-2010, 12:08 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>cast speed is already capped and the other 2 do little to nothing to remedy the wards being flat out removed, or getting chain onterupted trying to cast. Also person complaining about steadfast, spec out for 1 week, and bg, then come back and try to say it isn't good</blockquote>I said overrated, not bad. Under ideal situations like Gears with few classes to aoe KB you and a good tank to keep people off you, it's definitely useful because you can finally plant yourself and heal. And by overrated I mean that one ability for how sporadic it works shouldn't be a reason why you feel Shaman need special treatment over other healers.

Notsovilepriest

09-13-2010, 01:12 PM

<cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>cast speed is already capped and the other 2 do little to nothing to remedy the wards being flat out removed, or getting chain onterupted trying to cast. Also person complaining about steadfast, spec out for 1 week, and bg, then come back and try to say it isn't good</blockquote>I said overrated, not bad. Under ideal situations like Gears with few classes to aoe KB you and a good tank to keep people off you, it's definitely useful because you can finally plant yourself and heal. And by overrated I mean that one ability for how sporadic it works shouldn't be a reason why you feel Shaman need special treatment over other healers.</blockquote>it's far from overrated, I'm saying this as an shaman, gone Templar/ inq, back to shaman, you only realize it's strength when you don't have it, and take it forgranted till it is gone

Avirodar

09-13-2010, 03:04 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>it's far from overrated, I'm saying this as an shaman, gone Templar/ inq, back to shaman, you only realize it's strength when you don't have it, and take it forgranted till it is gone</blockquote>Yes you're right. Clerics can get steadfast, and it is an endline AA worth spending points on. Do you know that steadfast actually has a rather significant bug at the present time, that would severely impact on what you consider the prime point of comparison (group reactive vs group ward)? You should also know that Steadfast does nothing against stuns. It does nothing against knockbacks. It does nothing against fears or mezzes. And if -anything- makes the cleric move, including knockbacks, bye bye steadfast...The number of times I have had 3-4 people on me, and they time a few knockbacks about two seconds apart, shows that people know how to deal with steadfast spec'd clerics. Add any kind of stifle/stun into that mix and things can get very bad for a cleric, very fast. An emergency save might work, but they are not exactly instant recast options. Clerics are not unkillable by any means.You have not been able to give any good reason as to why a group reactive should be dispellable, but a group ward should not be. Actual in-game parses defy your "theoretical" maximum capacity calculations. The whole casting speed comment made by various people was shown to be false, it is the same as clerics. Now it has resorted to complaining about steadfast, and while yes it is helpful, it is not a free pass for clerics. And if you bring steadfast into the picture, perhaps we should take a closer look at how overpowered a shamans passive healing, AE avoiding, curing, and other dog related abilities are.As I have said from the start... 1) Wards + HOTs + Reactives should all be dispellable. or2) Wards + HOTs + Reactives should not be dispellable.No "type" of healing deserves favoritism over the other, in the dispel department.

Notsovilepriest

09-13-2010, 03:55 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>it's far from overrated, I'm saying this as an shaman, gone Templar/ inq, back to shaman, you only realize it's strength when you don't have it, and take it forgranted till it is gone</blockquote>Yes you're right. Clerics can get steadfast, and it is an endline AA worth spending points on. Do you know that steadfast actually has a rather significant bug at the present time, that would severely impact on what you consider the prime point of comparison (group reactive vs group ward)? You should also know that Steadfast does nothing against stuns. It does nothing against knockbacks. It does nothing against fears or mezzes. And if -anything- makes the cleric move, including knockbacks, bye bye steadfast...The number of times I have had 3-4 people on me, and they time a few knockbacks about two seconds apart, shows that people know how to deal with steadfast spec'd clerics. Add any kind of stifle/stun into that mix and things can get very bad for a cleric, very fast. An emergency save might work, but they are not exactly instant recast options. Clerics are not unkillable by any means.You have not been able to give any good reason as to why a group reactive should be dispellable, but a group ward should not be. Actual in-game parses defy your "theoretical" maximum capacity calculations. The whole casting speed comment made by various people was shown to be false, it is the same as clerics. Now it has resorted to complaining about steadfast, and while yes it is helpful, it is not a free pass for clerics. And if you bring steadfast into the picture, perhaps we should take a closer look at how overpowered a shamans passive healing, AE avoiding, curing, and other dog related abilities are.As I have said from the start... 1) Wards + HOTs + Reactives should all be dispellable. or2) Wards + HOTs + Reactives should not be dispellable.No "type" of healing deserves favoritism over the other, in the dispel department.</blockquote>In-Game related parses defy that right now because of toughness, when it is addressed it will change I promise you.I also assure you that clerics nor druids need any sort of a buff at all once toughness is changed(Or hopefully removed).Also, For steadfast, I know how it works in PvP, I know how it has quirks too, but it's also a far better ability than you are realizing and again challenge you (Or any cleric that doesn't believe how powerful it actually is) to spec out of it for a week. For the stuns, yes other healers deal with them too, and they also deal with interupts on top of them, and templars are rarely even effected by stuns at all. Also as an Inq don't know why you would mention stifles at all since if you would even drop AE every time it was up, you and your group would be immune almost all the time. Also as an Inq, You are KBed? Myth Click is great for that. you bring up all this CC like the others healers don't deal with it, Templars have Sanc too. All non-clerics deal with every CC on top of interupts on a consistant basis(Minus Scerenity being up for druids and I guess Immunities for Mystics(Much weaker can't use while CC'ed)).

Avirodar

09-13-2010, 04:39 PM

A number of KBs have short term stuns attached, which steadfast does not prevent in any way. Also, the KB component moves the cleric, and breaks steadfast. So if any stun OR stifle is in effect, the Inq can not use the mythical cure spell. Relying on a medium chance proc (at best) to help if no stun is in effect (not reliable at all) is a pretty weak argument to use in trying to get wards made undispellable.Once again, I am not saying steadfast sucks, it can be quite useful. But you trying to single out Steadfast as the sole valid reason to justify wards being made undispellable, is falling way short of the mark.I am yet to come across any solid information provided by an SOE Dev, that toughness is being changed. If there is something current, and written, please direct me to it so that I can read over it. Otherwise, if you are requesting enhancements to your class, based on what you -think- might happen in the future, and how you -think- it might impact on your class, all I can say is wow... Wishful thinking at its finest?

Notsovilepriest

09-13-2010, 04:47 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>A number of KBs have short term stuns attached, which steadfast does not prevent in any way. Also, the KB component moves the cleric, and breaks steadfast. So if any stun OR stifle is in effect, the Inq can not use the mythical cure spell. Relying on a medium chance proc (at best) to help if no stun is in effect (not reliable at all) is a pretty weak argument to use in trying to get wards made undispellable.Once again, I am not saying steadfast sucks, it can be quite useful. But you trying to single out Steadfast as the sole valid reason to justify wards being made undispellable, is falling way short of the mark.I am yet to come across any solid information provided by an SOE Dev, that toughness is being changed. If there is something current, and written, please direct me to it so that I can read over it. Otherwise, if you are requesting enhancements to your class, based on what you -think- might happen in the future, and how you -think- it might impact on your class, all I can say is wow... Wishful thinking at its finest?</blockquote>Ohilin has said that once the Bow/offhand changes go in they will look at the again since it's consistantly a complaint of PvP players of whats wrong and stuff.

Davngr1

09-13-2010, 08:18 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, RoA castable on yourself would do next to nothing for a shaman in BG/PvP to fix any issue with the class.</blockquote>how will 33% cast, recast and recovery not help in a pvp setting?</blockquote>cast speed is already capped and the other 2 do little to nothing to remedy the wards being flat out removed, or getting chain onterupted trying to cast. Also person complaining about steadfast, spec out for 1 week, and bg, then come back and try to say it isn't good</blockquote> yes but in pvp there are many classes that debuff cast,recast and recovery. that's one of the first debuffs i put on all priest. RoA would help my defiler and believe me it would help you too. remove the dispel from all heals. you have said it your self dispel does not affect other healer types much anyhow, why would you agrue against it? it's not logical.

Uinael_Guk

09-13-2010, 09:00 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, For steadfast, I know how it works in PvP, I know how it has quirks too, but it's also a far better ability than you are realizing and again challenge you (Or any cleric that doesn't believe how powerful it actually is) to spec out of it for a week. For the stuns, yes other healers deal with them too, and they also deal with interupts on top of them, and templars are rarely even effected by stuns at all. Also as an Inq don't know why you would mention stifles at all since if you would even drop AE every time it was up, you and your group would be immune almost all the time. Also as an Inq, You are KBed? Myth Click is great for that. you bring up all this CC like the others healers don't deal with it, Templars have Sanc too. All non-clerics deal with every CC on top of interupts on a consistant basis(Minus Scerenity being up for druids and I guess Immunities for Mystics(Much weaker can't use while CC'ed)).</blockquote>People working around steadfast is no different than your situation of dispelling wards. Any good player knows they have stuff in their bag of tricks to mess with a steadfast cleric, just like any good player uses their dispel on healers.What you don't seem to realize is casters and brigs normally don't dispel. Many casters don't even know they have the spell (or cure arcane), and brigs only know of the spell as a taunt so they don't use it unless they know their spells. I'd bet you're getting dispelled by eithera) Good casters / brigs who shouldn't be punished for being smart and using all their spellsorb) SK's because DJ does damage and there are 100 noob SK's per match casting it.Now, based on your other thread, you're OK with (b), so this thread is essentially about punishing the good casters and scouts who actually use their dispel? As someone who uses dispel as a weapon, i'm bothered someone from the big bad pvp server in one of the top guilds there doesn't have the competitive spirit to deal with players like me and want to see us nerfed... and before you bring up my thread, DJ is a pure OP'd joke that does need a re-touch. There is nothing competitive about an ultra overpowered ability that can strip all buff types in an area (usually 2+ per person) up to 8 targets.

Ralpmet

09-13-2010, 11:52 PM

Ok, this is 8 pages now. Here are the reasons to make ALL heals not dispelled:1. Coding, coding a change for ALL heals is easier than coding for CERTAIN heals. It's much more likely to be implemented if it's easy to implement. 2. No healing class deserves an advantage over another through base mechanics that can't be changed by the player, I.E. undispellable heals are more OP than dispellable ones.3. It doesn't make that much of a difference if they don't change it. Up until this thread I had no idea people were even dispelling my heals. However, the BRIG disp needs to be adjusted throughout all tiers, why is *one* scout class dispelling my healers constantly? Seems a big bogus to me. That or give swashies an evade that dispells too to even it out (and make me actually want to roll a swashy)

Notsovilepriest

09-14-2010, 12:08 AM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, this is 8 pages now. Here are the reasons to make ALL heals not dispelled:1. Coding, coding a change for ALL heals is easier than coding for CERTAIN heals. It's much more likely to be implemented if it's easy to implement. 2. No healing class deserves an advantage over another through base mechanics that can't be changed by the player, I.E. undispellable heals are more OP than dispellable ones.3. It doesn't make that much of a difference if they don't change it. Up until this thread I had no idea people were even dispelling my heals. However, the BRIG disp needs to be adjusted throughout all tiers, why is *one* scout class dispelling my healers constantly? Seems a big bogus to me. That or give swashies an evade that dispells too to even it out (and make me actually want to roll a swashy)Swash taunt does work on it, Has since resist consolidation</blockquote>

Ralpmet

09-14-2010, 12:13 AM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, this is 8 pages now. Here are the reasons to make ALL heals not dispelled:1. Coding, coding a change for ALL heals is easier than coding for CERTAIN heals. It's much more likely to be implemented if it's easy to implement. 2. No healing class deserves an advantage over another through base mechanics that can't be changed by the player, I.E. undispellable heals are more OP than dispellable ones.3. It doesn't make that much of a difference if they don't change it. Up until this thread I had no idea people were even dispelling my heals. However, the BRIG disp needs to be adjusted throughout all tiers, why is *one* scout class dispelling my healers constantly? Seems a big bogus to me. That or give swashies an evade that dispells too to even it out (and make me actually want to roll a swashy)Swash taunt does work on it, Has since resist consolidation</blockquote></blockquote>Hmpf. Well, definitely something I'm going to have to look into then until they change it. Might even be better than my assassin! Ha, hopefully it's not changed before the next double xp weekend because I would really just rather plv a swash then do quests with one, could get expensive twinking one to solo yellow heroic content <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Uinael_Guk

09-14-2010, 11:36 AM

<cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, this is 8 pages now. Here are the reasons to make ALL heals not dispelled:1. Coding, coding a change for ALL heals is easier than coding for CERTAIN heals. It's much more likely to be implemented if it's easy to implement. 2. No healing class deserves an advantage over another through base mechanics that can't be changed by the player, I.E. undispellable heals are more OP than dispellable ones.3. It doesn't make that much of a difference if they don't change it. Up until this thread I had no idea people were even dispelling my heals. However, the BRIG disp needs to be adjusted throughout all tiers, why is *one* scout class dispelling my healers constantly? Seems a big bogus to me. That or give swashies an evade that dispells too to even it out (and make me actually want to roll a swashy)</blockquote>I doubt any inexperienced (in pvp) rogues are using their taunts. A problem that Shaman guy is facing is BG's is extremely far from noob friendly, so a larger % of the rogues and casters he's facing now are experienced enough to use their extra abilities like dispel + taunts, and because of that he wants changes.. not to all healer classes either, just to HIS healer class lololol.I know he'll disagree but I like that I have weapons (granted pretty weak ones) vs those extremely powerful healers.

Notsovilepriest

09-14-2010, 12:43 PM

I'm going to be done with this thread barring complete ignorance that gets posted in it from now on. I posted my views as a long time shaman(Consistantly deemed weakest PvP healers through the years) and stated a minor fix to help them out, mainly aimed for when Toughness does get fixed admittedly.

Uinael_Guk

09-14-2010, 02:52 PM

Remove or drastically cut down the dispel effect from DJ and the Pally version and most of your problems will be solved. Ironic.

Corydonn

09-15-2010, 02:51 AM

Actually in the past few weeks I've met way more durable shamans than any warden and I for one am glad when a rogue on my team comes around that knows what the heck their taunt does.

Mosha D'Khan

09-15-2010, 12:08 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm going to be done with this thread barring complete ignorance that gets posted in it from now on. I posted my views as a long time shaman(Consistantly deemed weakest PvP healers through the years) and stated a minor fix to help them out, mainly aimed for when Toughness does get fixed admittedly.</blockquote>you keep saying that toughness is going to get fixed..... where is this posted, where did a derv say it was getting changed? but saying that it is going to get fixed and the dervs fixing something with in 6 months is very unlikly

BlueEternal

09-15-2010, 12:39 PM

<cite>Olihin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I need to find ways to get players interested in PvP. You are here to PvP, so how does comparing your raid gearing up represent any challenge or difficulty? I know some guild have alts filled with raid gear while main raiders are still missing some items. That is a separate issue that should not be confused with what we are talking about here. <ul><li>Fame has been evaluated and changes requested. No ETA on that. </li><li>You wont be able to AFK in open world unless huge quest hub. On test. </li><li>Warfields have been tiered and now you actually have to defeat the towers to win. On test soon. </li><li>Toughness is being addressed but not removed. If removed then the armor will soon get really good which would hurt you in PvE. We still working on how much to change it. </li><li>Might consider other "challenges". Actively listening in game for these. </li></ul>In the meantime, you need to consider that the items are shared with Battlegrounds. I do not wish to price Open PvP items with crazy restrictions that are not shared on a BG vendor. At the same time, until I can get an Open PvP only stat, the pricing is not going to be too hard for us Open PvP players to get. I am always willing to listen to ideas and provide the feedback for the team to evaluate. I thank you for your understanding.Olihin</blockquote>

Notsovilepriest

09-15-2010, 01:18 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>{0}</blockquote>slowly bit surely the masses will see I don't ask for unfounded things or just ask to be OP. I not making stuff up to help my claims either. Thanks Naroc <3

Mosha D'Khan

09-15-2010, 02:51 PM

<cite>Naroc@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I need to find ways to get players interested in PvP. You are here to PvP, so how does comparing your raid gearing up represent any challenge or difficulty? I know some guild have alts filled with raid gear while main raiders are still missing some items. That is a separate issue that should not be confused with what we are talking about here. <ul><li>Fame has been evaluated and changes requested. No ETA on that. </li><li>You wont be able to AFK in open world unless huge quest hub. On test. </li><li>Warfields have been tiered and now you actually have to defeat the towers to win. On test soon. </li><li>Toughness is being addressed but not removed. If removed then the armor will soon get really good which would hurt you in PvE. We still working on how much to change it. </li><li>Might consider other "challenges". Actively listening in game for these. </li></ul>In the meantime, you need to consider that the items are shared with Battlegrounds. I do not wish to price Open PvP items with crazy restrictions that are not shared on a BG vendor. At the same time, until I can get an Open PvP only stat, the pricing is not going to be too hard for us Open PvP players to get. I am always willing to listen to ideas and provide the feedback for the team to evaluate. I thank you for your understanding.Olihin</blockquote></blockquote>the part in blue, mean still in the work. which in sony time if most did not know means 6 months to a year or more. or they will just do what they did with the fighter revamp and not do jack with it. like i said just because they something does not mean they will ever do it. so until it gets done the dispell makes up for it until then. dont get me wrong i dont mind this getting fixed but atm it is the only thing that makes up for the over powerness of healers right now.

Notsovilepriest

09-15-2010, 04:54 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>{0}</blockquote>Healers minus wardens really are only OP because of toughness over mitigating damage. Once the mitigation from it is cut, a ward with disappear in 2 seconds tops leaving 5.5 seconds(Best Case Scenerio) of the group recieving no group protection really, and with already challenging abilitys to recast it as is, it doesn't need dispelled. I don't know what more logic is needed than that.

Odys

09-15-2010, 11:39 PM

My warden and mystic are both around 70-80% casting speed, my warden fast group heal is like 0,3 0,4 casting time but transcendance (direct powerfull group heal) is still at 1,4seconds ... I m not even speaking of the group ward which is even slower and brings very few hps ....The difference is enormous, even in PVE, because in 0.4 second you are very much likely to get no interupt (add to that the high channeling from wolf form and channeling aas in druid tree).Add serenity on the top and infinite mana ...If i was considering PVP as woth playing for sure i would play with my warden (anti root anti snare will be nice too).So, if you add on the top the possibility to dispell wards reactives, which does not hurt much druids, i wonder why would people play a shaman in PVP.

Avirodar

09-16-2010, 01:09 PM

<cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>My warden and mystic are both around 70-80% casting speed, my warden fast group heal is like 0,3 0,4 casting time but transcendance (direct powerfull group heal) is still at 1,4seconds ... I m not even speaking of the group ward which is even slower and brings very few hps ....The difference is enormous, even in PVE, because in 0.4 second you are very much likely to get no interupt (add to that the high channeling from wolf form and channeling aas in druid tree).Add serenity on the top and infinite mana ...If i was considering PVP as woth playing for sure i would play with my warden (anti root anti snare will be nice too).So, if you add on the top the possibility to dispell wards reactives, which does not hurt much druids, i wonder why would people play a shaman in PVP.</blockquote>You have stated much of the obvious, except for the last sentence. We all know wardens cast incredibly fast, that warden HOTs perform with fantastic efficiency, and warden power management is still second to none.But your last sentence looks like you are confused with what wards and reactives are. Wards can be dispelled, reactives can be dispelled, they both have the same base cast time. So by your logic of wondering why people would play a shaman, the same applies to clerics.I'd give more credit to claims that shamans need help, if there was not several shamans that I see in BGs, that are very effective at what they do, and are an absolute PITA to take down. I maintain that wards do not, in any way, shape or form, deserve special treatment that is deliberately not applied to other healing forms. When (or if...) a toughness change does occur, is the time to look at the actual impact it has. Trying to pre-emptively get your class buffed, just incase a possible future change with no ETA -could- make things tougher compared to other healers (which is a mere assumption), is plain silly. I am glad I have not seen a red name post in this thread that agrees with the OP.

Mosha D'Khan

09-16-2010, 01:23 PM

Uinael_Guk

09-16-2010, 04:15 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd give more credit to claims that shamans need help, if there was not several shamans that I see in BGs, that are very effective at what they do, and are an absolute PITA to take down. I maintain that wards do not, in any way, shape or form, deserve special treatment that is deliberately not applied to other healing forms. When (or if...) a toughness change does occur, is the time to look at the actual impact it has. Trying to pre-emptively get your class buffed, just incase a possible future change with no ETA -could- make things tougher compared to other healers (which is a mere assumption), is plain silly. I am glad I have not seen a red name post in this thread that agrees with the OP.</blockquote>Exactly, well said. Like I said earlier, as it stands, a well geared Defiler is one of the tougher classes to take down, and nosowhatever proved that with his video. He took on nearly a full group in gears what seems to be alone for almost a minute. I know he was posting the video to prove something else, but all he did was prove defilers can be really tough to kill, even 6 on 1, and even with wards being dispelled.To make a change now, to one specific arch-type, just because down the road the toughness change may or may not make his life much harder is silly. It's very possible to almost probable healers may have to be looked at again for boosts should toughness be altered, but when that comes it'll also likely be to all healers, not just Shaman. Healing as a Cleric in BG's is no picnic, with reactives being weaker and cast times being the same. To rule them out for the same changes is also silly when nobody knows how the toughness nerf will play out.I think most people are trying to point that out to him yet he's clearly digging his heels in the sand for some reason.

Notsovilepriest

09-16-2010, 07:27 PM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>My warden and mystic are both around 70-80% casting speed, my warden fast group heal is like 0,3 0,4 casting time but transcendance (direct powerfull group heal) is still at 1,4seconds ... I m not even speaking of the group ward which is even slower and brings very few hps ....The difference is enormous, even in PVE, because in 0.4 second you are very much likely to get no interupt (add to that the high channeling from wolf form and channeling aas in druid tree).Add serenity on the top and infinite mana ...If i was considering PVP as woth playing for sure i would play with my warden (anti root anti snare will be nice too).So, if you add on the top the possibility to dispell wards reactives, which does not hurt much druids, i wonder why would people play a shaman in PVP.</blockquote>You have stated much of the obvious, except for the last sentence. We all know wardens cast incredibly fast, that warden HOTs perform with fantastic efficiency, and warden power management is still second to none.But your last sentence looks like you are confused with what wards and reactives are. Wards can be dispelled, reactives can be dispelled, they both have the same base cast time. So by your logic of wondering why people would play a shaman, the same applies to clerics.I'd give more credit to claims that shamans need help, if there was not several shamans that I see in BGs, that are very effective at what they do, and are an absolute PITA to take down. I maintain that wards do not, in any way, shape or form, deserve special treatment that is deliberately not applied to other healing forms. When (or if...) a toughness change does occur, is the time to look at the actual impact it has. Trying to pre-emptively get your class buffed, just incase a possible future change with no ETA -could- make things tougher compared to other healers (which is a mere assumption), is plain silly. I am glad I have not seen a red name post in this thread that agrees with the OP.</blockquote>What you are seeing right now is over mitigation amplifying the power of the shamans passive healing abilities, Once damage is increased when Toughness is fixed(It will be, there is no way it won't, If they say they won't they will lose too much $ and they know that), Shamans will diminish in power and the others whom aren't healing for close to their full potential will gain power since they will get to heal closer to their full amounts. It's not a hard concept to understand this cause and effect relationship. Right now you are seeing the highest possible output for shamans and other healers are still able to compete pretty well. If damage is amplified, wards will be gone in the matter of seconds and shamans will fall back to their old role, of being a secondary healer in PvP because they can't solo heal a group like the rest of the healers. This is not speculation, it's happened in the past and it's going to happen again when damage isn't over mitigated, I assure you.Also, for whoever said something about the video showing strength. If a cleric/druid was in the same position with the same gear I'm wearing, they would not have died to what I did, Atleast until they ran out of power. This very consistanly happens and has before, I would go into a zerg of 20+ people on my templar last expansion and heal until I ran out of power or enough extremely well geared DPS burnt me down, and now it's even easier this expansion to just do that, since damage has decreased, and healing has increased.Also for this change to go live, it should go live with the toughness fix.Not sooner, Even though it is already extremely crappy as is right now

Mosha D'Khan

09-16-2010, 07:34 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>My warden and mystic are both around 70-80% casting speed, my warden fast group heal is like 0,3 0,4 casting time but transcendance (direct powerfull group heal) is still at 1,4seconds ... I m not even speaking of the group ward which is even slower and brings very few hps ....The difference is enormous, even in PVE, because in 0.4 second you are very much likely to get no interupt (add to that the high channeling from wolf form and channeling aas in druid tree).Add serenity on the top and infinite mana ...If i was considering PVP as woth playing for sure i would play with my warden (anti root anti snare will be nice too).So, if you add on the top the possibility to dispell wards reactives, which does not hurt much druids, i wonder why would people play a shaman in PVP.</blockquote>You have stated much of the obvious, except for the last sentence. We all know wardens cast incredibly fast, that warden HOTs perform with fantastic efficiency, and warden power management is still second to none.But your last sentence looks like you are confused with what wards and reactives are. Wards can be dispelled, reactives can be dispelled, they both have the same base cast time. So by your logic of wondering why people would play a shaman, the same applies to clerics.I'd give more credit to claims that shamans need help, if there was not several shamans that I see in BGs, that are very effective at what they do, and are an absolute PITA to take down. I maintain that wards do not, in any way, shape or form, deserve special treatment that is deliberately not applied to other healing forms. When (or if...) a toughness change does occur, is the time to look at the actual impact it has. Trying to pre-emptively get your class buffed, just incase a possible future change with no ETA -could- make things tougher compared to other healers (which is a mere assumption), is plain silly. I am glad I have not seen a red name post in this thread that agrees with the OP.</blockquote>What you are seeing right now is over mitigation amplifying the power of the shamans passive healing abilities, Once damage is increased when Toughness is fixed(It will be, there is no way it won't, If they say they won't they will lose too much $ and they know that), Shamans will diminish in power and the others whom aren't healing for close to their full potential will gain power since they will get to heal closer to their full amounts. It's not a hard concept to understand this cause and effect relationship. Right now you are seeing the highest possible output for shamans and other healers are still able to compete pretty well. If damage is amplified, wards will be gone in the matter of seconds and shamans will fall back to their old role, of being a secondary healer in PvP because they can't solo heal a group like the rest of the healers. This is not speculation, it's happened in the past and it's going to happen again when damage isn't over mitigated, I assure you.Also, for whoever said something about the video showing strength. If a cleric/druid was in the same position with the same gear I'm wearing, they would not have died to what I did, Atleast until they ran out of power. This very consistanly happens and has before, I would go into a zerg of 20+ people on my templar last expansion and heal until I ran out of power or enough extremely well geared DPS burnt me down, and now it's even easier this expansion to just do that, since damage has decreased, and healing has increased.Also for this change to go live, it should go live with the toughness fix.Not sooner, Even though it is already extremely crappy as is right now</blockquote>k first, stop saying when toughness gets fixed...... we have all heard such and such was getting fixed and it never did. and 2nd if you are having a problem with being a number 2 healer in a PvP group, go whine on the PvP forums. and shammans do have alot of potential, even more than the others because their wards are used first before the DoT heals kick. but like everyone has said until toughness gets fixed this would just make shammans OP and un killable, you even posted a video showing how it would look with 4 on 1 with no head way. they were just lucky they had someone smart enought to dispell

Notsovilepriest

09-16-2010, 07:43 PM

I enjoy enept people trying to talk as if they know something when in reality they have no clue what they are talking about and can't really fathom what another person is talking about because you haven't been in a situation before to understand it. Kinda like telling a sexual assault victim you know how then feel after when you yourself have never been sexual assaulted. You know how dumb it makes that person look?

Avirodar

09-16-2010, 11:56 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What you are seeing right now is over mitigation amplifying the power of the shamans passive healing abilities, Once damage is increased when Toughness is fixed(It will be, there is no way it won't, If they say they won't they will lose too much $ and they know that), Shamans will diminish in power and the others whom aren't healing for close to their full potential will gain power since they will get to heal closer to their full amounts. It's not a hard concept to understand this cause and effect relationship. Right now you are seeing the highest possible output for shamans and other healers are still able to compete pretty well. If damage is amplified, wards will be gone in the matter of seconds and shamans will fall back to their old role, of being a secondary healer in PvP because they can't solo heal a group like the rest of the healers. This is not speculation, it's happened in the past and it's going to happen again when damage isn't over mitigated, I assure you.Also, for whoever said something about the video showing strength. If a cleric/druid was in the same position with the same gear I'm wearing, they would not have died to what I did, Atleast until they ran out of power. This very consistanly happens and has before, I would go into a zerg of 20+ people on my templar last expansion and heal until I ran out of power or enough extremely well geared DPS burnt me down, and now it's even easier this expansion to just do that, since damage has decreased, and healing has increased.Also for this change to go live, it should go live with the toughness fix.Not sooner, Even though it is already extremely crappy as is right now</blockquote>I'd pretend to care how something worked, last expansion. Since then, there has been a level cap raise, new AAs, and several code/mechanics changes, it is out of date information, that has no relevance to BGs in this expansion.When a change to toughness is declared, and we get a chance to see what it actually does on test, is the time for the PVP dev to evaluate if shamans are unduly effected.At the current time, shamans are not tapping out their healing. You talk as if shamans have to go ball to the wall to keep a group alive, and it is a cake-walk for the other healers. If that was correct, I would not see most of the kills that are frequently made in BGs.

Notsovilepriest

09-17-2010, 12:14 AM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What you are seeing right now is over mitigation amplifying the power of the shamans passive healing abilities, Once damage is increased when Toughness is fixed(It will be, there is no way it won't, If they say they won't they will lose too much $ and they know that), Shamans will diminish in power and the others whom aren't healing for close to their full potential will gain power since they will get to heal closer to their full amounts. It's not a hard concept to understand this cause and effect relationship. Right now you are seeing the highest possible output for shamans and other healers are still able to compete pretty well. If damage is amplified, wards will be gone in the matter of seconds and shamans will fall back to their old role, of being a secondary healer in PvP because they can't solo heal a group like the rest of the healers. This is not speculation, it's happened in the past and it's going to happen again when damage isn't over mitigated, I assure you.Also, for whoever said something about the video showing strength. If a cleric/druid was in the same position with the same gear I'm wearing, they would not have died to what I did, Atleast until they ran out of power. This very consistanly happens and has before, I would go into a zerg of 20+ people on my templar last expansion and heal until I ran out of power or enough extremely well geared DPS burnt me down, and now it's even easier this expansion to just do that, since damage has decreased, and healing has increased.Also for this change to go live, it should go live with the toughness fix.Not sooner, Even though it is already extremely crappy as is right now</blockquote>I'd pretend to care how something worked, last expansion. Since then, there has been a level cap raise, new AAs, and several code/mechanics changes, it is out of date information, that has no relevance to BGs in this expansion.When a change to toughness is declared, and we get a chance to see what it actually does on test, is the time for the PVP dev to evaluate if shamans are unduly effected.At the current time, shamans are not tapping out their healing. You talk as if shamans have to go ball to the wall to keep a group alive, and it is a cake-walk for the other healers. If that was correct, I would not see most of the kills that are frequently made in BGs.</blockquote>You do realize that I was just using a sampling of time which I fought extreme numbers alone and just kept myself alive as long as I could. I played my templar in BGs when they launched, played him for awhile, Stop trying to act like I'm ignorant because you can zone into a zone with restricted "PvP" which is limited to a certain number of people in 1 zone to hit you. It is a joke to heal on a warden or cleric, if you don't think so, I don't know what to tell you.

Avirodar

09-17-2010, 01:27 AM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You do realize that I was just using a sampling of time which I fought extreme numbers alone and just kept myself alive as long as I could. I played my templar in BGs when they launched, played him for awhile, Stop trying to act like I'm ignorant because you can zone into a zone with restricted "PvP" which is limited to a certain number of people in 1 zone to hit you. It is a joke to heal on a warden or cleric, if you don't think so, I don't know what to tell you.</blockquote>Once again, you mistake me for someone who cares about something that happened LAST EXPANSION on a PVP server.Do I need to explain how it is September 2010, and that this is the Battlegrounds section of the EQ2 forums? It is not 2009, and this is not the PVP forum. Trying to beat your chest about something you done on a PVP server during a different expansion, has absolutely zero relevance. What is relevant is what goes on in BG matches, I do -not- care about how long your templar lasted against 20 noobs from a pink server last expansion. If anything, that just goes to show how terrible players on PVP servers can be.It is a joke to heal on a shaman. The best healing I have seen in any BG to date, both before and after resist changes, has come from shamans. If you don't think so, I don't know what to tell you.

Notsovilepriest

09-17-2010, 01:31 AM

<cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You do realize that I was just using a sampling of time which I fought extreme numbers alone and just kept myself alive as long as I could. I played my templar in BGs when they launched, played him for awhile, Stop trying to act like I'm ignorant because you can zone into a zone with restricted "PvP" which is limited to a certain number of people in 1 zone to hit you. It is a joke to heal on a warden or cleric, if you don't think so, I don't know what to tell you.</blockquote>Once again, you mistake me for someone who cares about something that happened LAST EXPANSION on a PVP server.Do I need to explain how it is September 2010, and that this is the Battlegrounds section of the EQ2 forums? It is not 2009, and this is not the PVP forum. Trying to beat your chest about something you done on a PVP server during a different expansion, has absolutely zero relevance. What is relevant is what goes on in BG matches, I do -not- care about how long your templar lasted against 20 noobs from a pink server last expansion. If anything, that just goes to show how terrible players on PVP servers can be.It is a joke to heal on a shaman. The best healing I have seen in any BG to date, both before and after resist changes, has come from shamans. If you don't think so, I don't know what to tell you.</blockquote>Have you healed on one? This is my question to you.

Avirodar

09-17-2010, 01:41 AM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Have you healed on one? This is my question to you.</blockquote>Yes.

urgthock

09-17-2010, 01:41 PM

Personally, I don't think any healing spell should be able to be dispelled. For those who try to liken this to a dot being dispelled, I would say that dots, being a detrimental effect, work entirely differently and serve one purpose only; to do damage to your enemy. No class is reliant on a mere 2 or 3 sources (abilities) of said damage and as such can reapply numerous other sources. Priests are reliant on a small handful of abilities to heal and should not be able to have those dispelled.Just as an example:A Necro throws on 2 dots that are dispelled within a second, he then throws on 2 more dots.A Priest throws out 2 non-instant heals (group and single) that are dispelled within a second and then waits until his recast timer is up to throw them out again (or uses his/her very long timer emergencies which will also probably be dispelled).Just my opinion.

Uinael_Guk

09-17-2010, 04:13 PM

<cite>urgthock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally, I don't think any healing spell should be able to be dispelled. For those who try to liken this to a dot being dispelled, I would say that dots, being a detrimental effect, work entirely differently and serve one purpose only; to do damage to your enemy. No class is reliant on a mere 2 or 3 sources (abilities) of said damage and as such can reapply numerous other sources. Priests are reliant on a small handful of abilities to heal and should not be able to have those dispelled.Just as an example:A Necro throws on 2 dots that are dispelled within a second, he then throws on 2 more dots.A Priest throws out 2 non-instant heals (group and single) that are dispelled within a second and then waits until his recast timer is up to throw them out again (or uses his/her very long timer emergencies which will also probably be dispelled).Just my opinion.</blockquote>That's actually a pretty bad example. A necro has 4 major damage spells and a few smaller ones (not counting pet), 3 of those 4 are dots (rot, pestilence, coil), and has one more single target if you count the 25 second recast aoe, but that doesn't help the point.A Templar has:Ward+Heal (although longer recast - 30 seconds)2 single target direct heals ( < 10 second recast)single target reactive (6 seconds)group heal (9 seconds)group reactive (15 seconds)-- none of these count gear, buffs or AA's which lower recast timersThose are the main spells they cast, then there isDivine Guidance (20 trigger - in pvp - group reactive, 3 min recast)Another single target reactive (2 min 30 second recast)2 emergency reactives (long recast)Group arcane ward for 10k+ (1 min recast)A debuff that essentially puts a heal over time on whoever attacks the person (although this gets cured often)A debuff that triggers roughly every 15 seconds which casts an aoe heal + aoe cure (this also gets cured often)I know when I heal in BG's, I am never sitting there with a loss of what to cast, even if my stuff gets dispelled. Between like 100 ward procs that trigger from my gear, my group reactive, repent and single target reactive, I can easily keep a class like a zerker up for a very long time unless there are like 10+ people on him and he has bad gear... This is counting those who occasionally dispel my heals. Defilers are very similar in their overall heal power and can keep a tank up with ease, as long as the tank can do his job and keep people off the healers.As a healer I have a hard time saying 'don't make us stronger' because who doesn't like extra power, but as a dps I see just how powerful every healer class is (including defilers).

FrostDragon

09-17-2010, 05:57 PM

Given that wizards have proc wards from thier pvp server armors if you made healler wards unstoppable then you make all pvp server armor users unstoppable ... if you cant strip them you cant kill them. think Hippo solo vs a 24 man. Don't try to think it would just be healers cast wards. really look at the big picture.

Notsovilepriest

09-21-2010, 03:00 PM

<cite>Olihin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Toughness Toughness has been changed to 30% damage reduction at max skill and will provide PvP Critical Mitigation: <ul type="disc"><li>15% starting at 10. </li><li>30% starting at 70. </li><li>45% starting at 80 </li><li>60% at level 90. </li></ul> The skill cost to reach max Toughness has also increased by 50% at all tiers. <ul><li>Example: You now need 900 skill vs. 600 skill to reach Max Toughness at level 90.</li></ul>Olihin</blockquote>Told you so <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />