The story of the new paladin..

[Maveric_LOL]

<p>This is the story of a guy who is totally new to the lands of norath, trying to understand the concepts of his profession and comparing how its <span style="text-decoration: underline;">supposed</span> to work against <span style="text-decoration: underline;">how it actually works</span>, its a story about theory vs practical application and nothing more . Read into it what you will.</p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Tra</strong><strong>iner:</strong> yes, good morning can i help you?</p><p><strong>New Paladin:</strong> Yes, i just arrived here in New Halas, i tried to get into Qeynos but for some reason i was told they arent accepting any new people which is odd cause its like a massive city but its like empty except for some random kid that keeps asking me if i ever seen a gnoll before. Anyway, i have decided i want to be a paladin so i have come here for training. So...wut do i have to do...rescue some maidens from a gulch some place? Slay some nasty gnolls? What?</p><p><strong>Trainer:</strong> /sigh...sir...did you or did you not press the paladin button on your way in here..ok good.. you got the starter sword and the shield too...and the armor starter kit? Ok good. Then your already a paladin congratulations.</p><p><strong>New Paladin:</strong> odd...i dont feel...'Paladin-ish'...anyway now that im a paladin what cool new abilities do i get?</p><p><strong>Trainer:</strong> Well, P<span>aladins excel in martial combat while employing divine magic to enhance their abilities and strike down their enemies.  By invoking both protective and healing magic, the Paladin can often survive battles that would crumble those of lesser resolve.</span>.</p><p><strong>New Paladin:</strong> oh sweet so i can call on my god in battle and he will enhance my armor and protect me from all damage!</p><p><strong>Trainer:</strong> um well no, actually he wont enhance your armor..not even on a temporary basis...and actually will only protect you from SOME damage, not all.</p><p><strong>New Paladin:</strong> wait what, i just saw a demo over at the guardian trainer where the new guy put up a 'stoneskin', got charged by a warhorse the horse hit him and it looked like the horse had just run into a brick wall.</p><p><strong>Trainer:</strong> Oh a stoneskin, yeah you get one of those..</p><p><strong>New Paladin:</strong> sweet</p><p><strong>Trainer:</strong> but sometimes a enemy can strikethrough yours though so becareful..</p><p><strong>New Paladin:</strong> wait what, no one said anything about that?!? But that guardian guy...i mean im no expert, im just spitballing here...but im just thinking wouldent it be better to you know, avoid all the pain and maiming out right? I mean i am using holy powers from a freaking god here...why cant he just like protect me with his holy magic.</p><p><strong>Trainer:</strong> yeah i know, but your a crusader your acceptance of pain in battle strenghtens your resolve in your faith. That is why you dont prevent all damage but rather prevent some with your holy wards, and absorb the rest and then heal it.</p><p><strong>New Paladin:</strong> ok cool i guess thats why i have these massive heals then...but wait....what happens if i die when i get hit...then i cant heal tho right...i mean i have to actually survive the hit first to be able to heal dont I?</p><p><strong>Trainer:</strong> Always pray for divine favor before you enter battle, that way if your struck down you will be resurected by your faith.</p><p><strong>New Paladin:</strong> ohhhh well thats super cool then i guess and once im back on my feet i can like run away, or stand my ground and just start healing my self right away.</p><p><strong>Trainer:</strong> well.....actually....it always used to be that way...but for some reason recently thats not the case anymore...not sure why though no one told me why...</p><p><strong>New Paladin:</strong> well thats kinda lame, anyway at least i got these massive heals and this really cool holy ward to keep me alive though.</p><p><strong>Trainer:</strong> well actually....the gods were talking  and they kinda felt your heals and wards were over powered so they scaled them back so now they are actually quite small.</p><p><strong>New Paladin:</strong> aww thats lame....well at least once i go kill a few bad guys maybe a dragon or two ill get some nice gear and just beef those right up.</p><p><strong>Trainer:</strong> um....well actually no...most of your gear will have little effect on your heals..</p><p><strong>New Paladin:</strong> but thas kinda lame how come everone elses gear is affecting ALL of everyone elses abilities but some most of my cool stuff isnt affecting mine?</p><p><strong>Trainer:</strong> its called balance, the gods dont want a paladin or shadowknight for that matter just running around like some unstopable juggernaut on the battlegrounds just smiting people while being totally unkillable.</p><p><strong>New Paladin:</strong> dude...seriously? I just saw them catapult a freaking giant boulder over there at that new guardian and the thing just shattered when it hit his tower of stone...</p><p><strong>Trainer:</strong> oh yeah you can do that too, here let me teach you this spell 'divine aura'...</p><p><10 miniutes later><strong>New Paladin:</strong> Are you sure about this? Im not sure this is a good idea it looks like its gonna hurt</p><p><strong>Trainer:</strong> Dont worry you wont feel a thing, now stand still while i calibrate the catapult....ok...good....you ready? here goes!!</p><p><5 miniutes later>Trainer: whew your awake, thought we had lost you there for a while..</p><p><strong>New Paladin:</strong> what the hell was that thought that spell was supposed to stop that boulder!</p><p><strong>Trainer:</strong> oh well um, yeah my bad...as it turns out that boulder hit you for more than 50% of your maximum health..so in that case the spell doesent prevent any damage...again my bad i guess the boulder was too big...but it would work for little boulders...or you know..for other small stuff...just you know...only SOMETIMES for dragons and stuff.</p><p><strong>New Paladin:</strong> ah its ok i guess, ill just use one of my healing spells...what the...ok i cast my spell but my health diddent improve by any noticeable amount and i think...yep...leg still broken...ok i cast lay on hands im like half better now but my leg is still broke...and i cant seem to cast Lay on hands again...it keeps telling me not ready yet....are you sure this healing stuff actually works.</p><p><strong>Trainer:</strong> um yeah....its working as intended....</p>

[Xiotia]

<p>lol</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>The story of a Guardian...</p><p>Oh crap.. I can't keep agro.</p><p>On crap.. Raid leader replaced me with somebody that can do 2x the DPS I can</p><p>Oh crap.. All other plate tanks can mitigate damage just as good as I can.</p><p>Oh crap... My wonderful stoneskin ability was used up in 2 seconds and now I really wish I was taking 10% less damage for the whole fight.</p><p>Oh crap... I can't get a Heroic group cause I can't find a dirge and coercer.</p><p>Oh crap... I sure wish I could solo stuff.. it would make my down time more fun to challenge myself with stuff like that.</p><p>Oh crap... My short terms buffs don't do anything for me at all cause I'm already at the cap.</p><p>On crap... The healer in the only Heroic group I have gotten this week went LD and we wiped to trash.</p><p>Oh crap... The only DPS available is a Warlock and I don't have any hate transfer so I can't invite them to the group.</p><p>I understand that the heal change was a big change for the Paladins and it probably should be looked at but you need to get over yourself. Just becasue your only a Demi-God now and not a full God isn't going to make the pesants plowing the fields feel sorry for you.</p>

[Ryai]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I understand that the heal change was a big change for the Paladins and it probably should be looked at but you need to get over yourself. Just becasue your only a Demi-God now and not a full God isn't going to make the pesants plowing the fields feel sorry for you.</p></blockquote><p>Paladins were never godly. They actually were starting to be on par with zerkers/SKs.</p><p>And if you were getting replaced, its because you suck, not your class.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>I didn't read the thread, but can someone tell me real quick... is this a rant about paladins not having the defense of a guardian even though they are capable of way more dps, better at soloing and pvp, and have the best sustained aggro in the game? If so... lulz.</p>

[Maveric_LOL]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I didn't read the thread, but can someone tell me real quick... is this a rant about paladins not having the defense of a guardian even though they are capable of way more dps, better at soloing and pvp, and have the best sustained aggro in the game? If so... lulz.</p></blockquote><p>Its just the story of a new guy, trying to understand the concepts of his profession and comparing how its <span style="text-decoration: underline;">supposed</span> to work against <span style="text-decoration: underline;">how it actually works</span>, Its a story about theory vs practical application is all . Read into it what you will.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Ondten@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I understand that the heal change was a big change for the Paladins and it probably should be looked at but you need to get over yourself. Just becasue your only a Demi-God now and not a full God isn't going to make the pesants plowing the fields feel sorry for you.</p></blockquote><p>Paladins were never godly. They actually were starting to be on par with zerkers/SKs.</p><p>And if you were getting replaced, its because you suck, not your class.</p></blockquote><p>I like how the fall back position is that the individual must suck because *gasp* the classe have to be balanced.. I mean, SoE wouldn't let classes grow apart in inate ability right?</p>

[Brildean]

<p>wow that made me chuckle. on the bright side. i bet the changes to the stoneskins for guardians will only give them a 5% advantage to stoneskins in the same group make up as any other tank. I mean i sit at 20% consitantly on raids and 20% blocks, 3 to 4% parry, riposte, and then the off tank is 20% avoidance the attacks to me.. then the 5 to 8% from shield ally. Just more survivability for those O' moments.</p>

[NANEEJE]

<p>LOL Loved the effort put into that. So, now that the Guardians have received some seriously cool looking additions to their arsenal, are we still complaining about each other? Or can we go back to dueling each other in guild halls for the entertainment of our servants. Sorry, but when you roll a Guardian, you know you don't heal. It does suck as a Pally to stop damage/heal/ward/ start damage, it's like asking for a "time out" in the middle of a fight to tie my shoe. Brawlers, good on you for getting some good updates in 57. SK's, we can keep on trucking with our "make do" with what we are given. Zerk's, enjoy your ride <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> GOod to see so many top level zerk's right now. Who did I leave out? Oh ya... the suck. If you are getting replaced by any tank in any heroic instance, or even raids, it's because you don't play as well as someone who came along after you. Embrace your Class, Embrace your suck!</p>

[Landiin]

When I rolled a guard I could keep agro vs all other classes including the other tanks while in D stance using a shield. When I rolled a guard yes my DPS was low and I couldn't heal, LH, DT, FD but I was more survivable. Now all that remains is my DPS is lower. The new changed did nothing to change this.

[NANEEJE]

Hmm, maybe I read this wrong... you tell me if it says Guards got love... あえてローカライズに書かせていただきます、PT時間では深夜から早朝にかけてですが、日本時間では17時 から24時半はコアタイムを直撃しています。こういう事態は前から何度もあり、日本人プレイヤーの中には慣 れてしまった方もいると思いますが、予告できたはずのメンテナンスをこの時間予告無しで行うのは、ダメです 、二度とやらないでください。 と言ってもやりそうですけど、新規獲得を考えるなら、「これがSOEだよなー」と言って続けてくれるユーザ ーはそんなに多くないとおもうんですよ。 I think that says it best <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Boli32]

<p>I found a different quote:</p><p>αυτό είναι όλα τα ελληνικά σε με εγώ δεν έχει καμία ιδέα τι λέεται καμένος ή πράγματα όλα ξέρω ότι είμαστε είμαστε η καλύτερη κατηγορία όπως SoE λέει πρέπει να είμαστε. Βίδα εσύ.</p><p>Think that sums it up better.</p>

[Cyrdemac]

<p>Does anybody has a translation at hand? Missing my chinese? Greek? dictionary <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Boli32]

<p><cite>Cyrdemac wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Does anybody has a translation at hand? Missing my chinese? Greek? dictionary <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Babel fish if your friend <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>NANEEJE wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Hmm, maybe I read this wrong... you tell me if it says Guards got love... あえてローカライズに書かせていただきます、PT時間では深夜から早朝にかけてですが、日本時間では17時 から24時半はコアタイムを直撃しています。こういう事態は前から何度もあり、日本人プレイヤーの中には慣 れてしまった方もいると思いますが、予告できたはずのメンテナンスをこの時間予告無しで行うのは、ダメです 、二度とやらないでください。 と言ってもやりそうですけど、新規獲得を考えるなら、「これがSOEだよなー」と言って続けてくれるユーザ ーはそんなに多くないとおもうんですよ。 I think that says it best <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote><p>Translated to [Removed for Content]?</p><blockquote><span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: medium;"><span style="font-size: 16px;">Bon appéti t (had to put a space between the i and t because it spelled a word that means a [Removed for Content] and well SOE don't like [Removed for Content] it seems) dare not tell the localization, PT time is late at night, at half past 24 hours from the time Japan has been hit 17 times the core. The situation has many times before, while I think the Japanese players who had used some of this done in time without prior notice could have a maintenance notice is broken, and never do Please do not.Yes I do say that, given the new acquisition, "which I Na SOE" Users will continue to say I think that I so much.</span></span></blockquote><p>And yes Boli it is still all Greek when translated..</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The story of a Guardian...</p></blockquote><p>So good that other fighters could barely get a raid spot for 4 1/2 years.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The story of a Guardian...</p></blockquote><p>So good that other fighters could barely get a raid spot for 4 1/2 years.</p></blockquote><p>That bitterness still lingering Gage? Come on man, its been a while since you've played a brawler as your main. Let it go my child! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The story of a Guardian...</p></blockquote><p>So good that other fighters could barely get a raid spot for 4 1/2 years.</p></blockquote><p>BS.. The best rading guild on my server has used a SK for MT since before ROK. Sorry, just becasue you have problems dealing with the here and now doesn't mean you can rewrite the past for your own needs.</p>

[Kota]

affirmative action in a video game ?

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The story of a Guardian...</p></blockquote><p>So good that other fighters could barely get a raid spot for 4 1/2 years.</p></blockquote><p>BS.. The best rading guild on my server has used a SK for MT since before ROK. Sorry, just becasue you have problems dealing with the here and now doesn't mean you can rewrite the past for your own needs.</p></blockquote><p>My guild has used a Guard MT thru TSO and SF.  Maybe things weren't as bad as a few people make them out to be.</p><p>Oh and we are at the top of progression.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The story of a Guardian...</p></blockquote><p>So good that other fighters could barely get a raid spot for 4 1/2 years.</p></blockquote><p>I don't think I've ever been on a raid without a shadowknight. Sometimes 3. Maybe you just suck?</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The story of a Guardian...</p></blockquote><p>So good that other fighters could barely get a raid spot for 4 1/2 years.</p></blockquote><p>BS.. The best rading guild on my server has used a SK for MT since before ROK. Sorry, just becasue you have problems dealing with the here and now doesn't mean you can rewrite the past for your own needs.</p></blockquote><p>My guild has used a Guard MT thru TSO and SF.  Maybe things weren't as bad as a few people make them out to be.</p><p>Oh and we are at the top of progression.</p></blockquote><p>Or maybe you're just an idiot.</p>

[Kahling]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The story of a Guardian...</p></blockquote><p>So good that other fighters could barely get a raid spot for 4 1/2 years.</p></blockquote><p>BS.. The best rading guild on my server has used a SK for MT since before ROK. Sorry, just becasue you have problems dealing with the here and now doesn't mean you can rewrite the past for your own needs.</p></blockquote><p>My guild has used a Guard MT thru TSO and SF.  Maybe things weren't as bad as a few people make them out to be.</p><p>Oh and we are at the top of progression.</p></blockquote><p>Or maybe you're just an idiot.</p></blockquote><p>I dissagree, if indeed his guild is on top of progression first of all he has my respec as that is no mean feat and secondly what he says carries some merit, if he isnt top of progression then please continue cos I cant be arsed to check it.</p>

[Shareana]

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=445320&post_id=5417516" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=44532...post_id=5417516</a> Please do not bypass the filter as it is against the forum guidelines. Thank you!

[RAYVEN2]

<p><cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The story of a Guardian...</p></blockquote><p>So good that other fighters could barely get a raid spot for 4 1/2 years.</p></blockquote><p>BS.. The best rading guild on my server has used a SK for MT since before ROK. Sorry, just becasue you have problems dealing with the here and now doesn't mean you can rewrite the past for your own needs.</p></blockquote><p>My guild has used a Guard MT thru TSO and SF.  Maybe things weren't as bad as a few people make them out to be.</p><p>Oh and we are at the top of progression.</p></blockquote><p>Or maybe you're just an idiot.</p></blockquote><p>I dissagree, if indeed his guild is on top of progression first of all he has my respec as that is no mean feat and secondly what he says carries some merit, if he isnt top of progression then please continue cos I cant be arsed to check it.</p></blockquote><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="line-height: 115%; font-family: "><span style="color: #ffffff;">You really shouldnt bother responding to him since hes a troll.  Just look at the majority of his posts and you'll see I'm right.  Rhat is likely some guardian running around in a mix of treasured and legendary gear wondering why he keeps getting his *censored* handed to him in the Library and why people don't want to group with him cause with his apprentice taunts he can't hold hate.  It’s funny cause the guild I'm in is also pretty high up on the progression list and we also use a guardian MT and have used a Guardian MT since before ROK.  Hes also the one saying that guardians still have super low DPS  when the fact is our guardian MT after the change was doing well over 30k and before the change was competitive with the other tanks.  Guys like him cry a lot because they suck at their class.  Just cause you've played a class for a long time doesnt mean you know how to play it.  I'm betting he's like a particular Zerker on AB who always cried about other tank classes in channel and when you grouped with him you would find out that it was him who sucked and not the class. </span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">The truth of what Bruener has to say is as easy as clicking on his name.  He is a member of Azure Skies which is indeed at the top of the progression list.  Guys like Rhat can't see past their own suck. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">*Wrote "censored" instead to comply with the rules. * </span></p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>Oh, Brownie's guild uses a guardian. All must be well and balanced then. Or, if you'd like me to enteratain your fallacy I can do that, but your assertion goes down in flames. Cuz you see... there are guilds that are "better" than Brownie Waffle's guild that don't use a guardian at all. So apparently, according to your lologic, guards aren't this special beastly tank that you seem to be trying to convice the game mechanics developer of in hopes that whatever OP easy class you play remains unbalanced.</p><p>Also, I don't see how me sucking or not sucking at playing a zerker has anything to do with guardians though. You lost me on that one. First, you assume I play a guardian, and you would be wrong. Second you assume I have terrible gear, and you would be wrong. Third you assume I don't know how to play eq2 and tank, and you would be wrong. Forth you assume even if all the above was true that I could not compare my character to similarly geared and skilled players of other tank classes and see glaring imbalances, and you would be wrong.</p><p>I'm gonna assume you're just another crusader on a crusade to tell everyone, "Tanks are balanced, and if you think they aren't you obviously suck"... cuz it's much easier to throw out fail over-used one-liners than to actually back up your garbage with supporting evidence. Save yourself some wear and tear on your keyboard next time and just type l2p, cuz it's much quicker and has the same significance and impact as your long-winded empty nothings.</p>

[Landiin]

When one resorts to personal attacks it only means they lost all bases for their argument and trying to deflect.

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>When one resorts to personal attacks it only means they lost all bases for their argument and trying to deflect.</blockquote><p>Or the alternate, you're not killing the same thing I killed, your opinion is baseless.</p><p>Either seems to be the defacto response when someone defends a baseless arguement.</p>

[RAYVEN2]

<p>"I don't think I've ever been on a raid without a shadowknight. Sometimes 3. Maybe you just suck?" - Rhat</p><p>"Or maybe you're just an idiot." - Rhat</p><p>You 3 guardians show up on all crusader threads and talk smack to try to lock them and then have the audacity to talk about personal insults?  If you have'nt noticed thats all Rhat does.  He shows up on a thread and comments with one line calling someone an idiot.  I read quite a few of his comments before stating what I did.  He claimed on page one not to have even read this thread but made a comment anyway.  </p><p>When people from top progression guilds say "we've used a Guardian MT since before TSO maybe the issues with guardians are not that bad" and someone else just berates them for telling the truth who's argument is baseless?    </p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>I've already given tons of supporting evidence in hundreds of posts. I'm not going to copy and paste a couple thousand lines of text in every post I make. The overall summary is crusaders are overpowered. This is not an opinion, it's fact based on thousands of pieces of real evidence presented from hundreds of players over the last 2 years. It's all here on these forums. You can deny it, and claim it's not so, but that doesn't change reality.</p><p>Guardians are an obselete class that are moderately useful for 1 thing. 1 thing that can also be done by any other plate tank. 1 thing that is done by a tiny fraction of the player base.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>I think crusaders should be immune to strikethrough provided they are in defensive stance and knight stance is not on.</p>

[Boli32]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think crusaders should be immune to strikethrough provided they are in defensive stance and knight stance is not on.</p></blockquote><p>...</p><p>oh yeah like THAT isn't overpowered...</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think crusaders should be immune to strikethrough provided they are in defensive stance and knight stance is not on.</p></blockquote><p>...</p><p>oh yeah like THAT isn't overpowered...</p></blockquote><p>How would it be overpowered?</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think crusaders should be immune to strikethrough provided they are in defensive stance and knight stance is not on.</p></blockquote><p>Are you on crack? </p>

[RAYVEN2]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think crusaders should be immune to strikethrough provided they are in defensive stance and knight stance is not on.</p></blockquote><p>By itself yeah that would be overpowered.  However, making the paladin immune to strikethrough when using "stonewall" while in defence stance would not be.  That would be 8 seconds of immunity and equal a stoneskin.  For the harder mobs it would give a reason to use the defence stance sort of.  Right now it kinda sucks to pop Stonewall and get stuck right through it by raid mobs. </p><p>I could really care less about that though.  I would like to see them fix our heals so that they are useful again.  Right now our heals are aweful.  A big part of our defence got the crap nerfed out of it.  SOE said they were considering making changes to our heals and we need that sooner wrather than later.  </p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think crusaders should be immune to strikethrough provided they are in defensive stance and knight stance is not on.</p></blockquote><p>Are you on crack? </p></blockquote><p>Brawlers have immune to strikethrough and more avoidance abilities and higher avoidance and it isn't overpowered.  It wouldn't be OP in any way, empowering doesn't mean overpowering.</p>

[Boli32]

<p>No it will be overpowered... there is NO WAY crusaders will gain strikethrough immunity whist warriors (guardians) do not.</p><p>Honestly it would be better to have defensive stance where you are immune to things like strikethrough, knockback  and have an increased resistance to stuns, interrupts, stifles, dazes etc... but as of right now just gifting crusaders immunity to strikethrough is waaaaay too much Overpowering; with or without knight's stance (which I reallly wish people will stop ruddy mentioing.. just give out more and more easily obtainable twohanders so we CAN DPS without a shield).</p><p>Indicentally fun fact pallys defensive stance is called knight's stance also making your orginal statement a never ending logic loop <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No it will be overpowered... there is NO WAY crusaders will gain strikethrough immunity whist warriors (guardians) do not.</p><p>Honestly it would be better to have defensive stance where you are immune to things like strikethrough, knockback  and have an increased resistance to stuns, interrupts, stifles, dazes etc... but as of right now just gifting crusaders immunity to strikethrough is waaaaay too much Overpowering; with or without knight's stance (which I reallly wish people will stop ruddy mentioing.. just give out more and more easily obtainable twohanders so we CAN DPS without a shield).</p><p>Indicentally fun fact pallys defensive stance is called knight's stance also making your orginal statement a never ending logic loop <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Paly full on defensive no KS wearing a shield still isn't more defensive then a full on defensive guardian.</p>

[Boli32]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No it will be overpowered... there is NO WAY crusaders will gain strikethrough immunity whist warriors (guardians) do not.</p><p>Honestly it would be better to have defensive stance where you are immune to things like strikethrough, knockback  and have an increased resistance to stuns, interrupts, stifles, dazes etc... but as of right now just gifting crusaders immunity to strikethrough is waaaaay too much Overpowering; with or without knight's stance (which I reallly wish people will stop ruddy mentioing.. just give out more and more easily obtainable twohanders so we CAN DPS without a shield).</p><p>Indicentally fun fact pallys defensive stance is called knight's stance also making your orginal statement a never ending logic loop <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Paly full on defensive no KS wearing a shield still isn't more defensive then a full on defensive guardian.</p></blockquote><p>Since the heal nerf full defensive pally is no where near a full defensive guard as we have no reliable way to deal with spike damage we may take *slightly less* damage generally but that isn't what kills you... the double attack and AoE close together is what makes Boli go splat.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No it will be overpowered... there is NO WAY crusaders will gain strikethrough immunity whist warriors (guardians) do not.</p><p>Honestly it would be better to have defensive stance where you are immune to things like strikethrough, knockback  and have an increased resistance to stuns, interrupts, stifles, dazes etc... but as of right now just gifting crusaders immunity to strikethrough is waaaaay too much Overpowering; with or without knight's stance (which I reallly wish people will stop ruddy mentioing.. just give out more and more easily obtainable twohanders so we CAN DPS without a shield).</p><p>Indicentally fun fact pallys defensive stance is called knight's stance also making your orginal statement a never ending logic loop <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Paly full on defensive no KS wearing a shield still isn't more defensive then a full on defensive guardian.</p></blockquote><p>Since the heal nerf full defensive pally is no where near a full defensive guard as we have no reliable way to deal with spike damage we may take *slightly less* damage generally but that isn't what kills you... the double attack and AoE close together is what makes Boli go splat.</p></blockquote><p>You are just proving my point.</p>

[Boli32]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No it will be overpowered... there is NO WAY crusaders will gain strikethrough immunity whist warriors (guardians) do not.</p><p>Honestly it would be better to have defensive stance where you are immune to things like strikethrough, knockback  and have an increased resistance to stuns, interrupts, stifles, dazes etc... but as of right now just gifting crusaders immunity to strikethrough is waaaaay too much Overpowering; with or without knight's stance (which I reallly wish people will stop ruddy mentioing.. just give out more and more easily obtainable twohanders so we CAN DPS without a shield).</p><p>Indicentally fun fact pallys defensive stance is called knight's stance also making your orginal statement a never ending logic loop <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Paly full on defensive no KS wearing a shield still isn't more defensive then a full on defensive guardian.</p></blockquote><p>Since the heal nerf full defensive pally is no where near a full defensive guard as we have no reliable way to deal with spike damage we may take *slightly less* damage generally but that isn't what kills you... the double attack and AoE close together is what makes Boli go splat.</p></blockquote><p>You are just proving my point.</p></blockquote><p>I never said I was aruging it.....</p><p>Fact is immunity to strikethrough will NOT happen for crusaders unless it is given to ALL tank's defensive stance. It was given to brawlers to "even out" the avoidance as brawlers were avoiding and still avoid less than mitigation tanks.  The only possible class who would gain immunity to strikethroughs singular as well as brawlers would be guardians; and they already gained a increased block chance in defensive.</p>

[Kota]

i think crusaders should get ice comet and insta cast fusion too. and assasinate. and sniper shot.

[RAYVEN2]

<p>The only thing Paladins really want are our heals fixed.  Thats all we really want.... ok, well we'd like that and not to be slapped with the nerf stick when SOE is aiming at SKs. </p>

[Enoe]

<p>Sk is dps class wearing plate armor with high hate generation - so best option as a OT.</p><p>If any of other kind of fighters would play endgame sk you would see he has not many tanking tools compare to warriors for example.</p><p>OFC we have emergency clickies like Sadowknoght furror (only melee) , Hateful respite, Siphon Blood, Touch of Death (only melee) but they r on medicore- long recast time and cant be used as real tanking shorttimers.</p><p>Some will Say BL is OP - again its bloody obvies it will proc if every thing else will fail - and since sk is not build as a real tank it has big chance to proc.</p><p>What keeps SKs alive while MTing is great healers - sk is just doing dps/tps and hoping he has good enough healers to keep him alive. Basicaly same as scouts tanking Sara in Labs or Vulaan on tox pulls.</p><p>Problem is rather with content wich is too easy and it allows sk to perform MT job easly.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>Good news! Shadowknights and paladins got buffed on test.</p><p><strong>Crusaders</strong></p><ul><li>“Holy Steed” and “Unholy Steed” now grant 25% run speed.</li></ul><p>Cuz you know... important stuff here. My only guess as to why time was taken to go into code and change the value of these two variables is new eq2x players that purchase a crusader would have been dissapointed with only a 20% mount.</p>

[Controlor]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Good news! Shadowknights and paladins got buffed on test.</p><p><strong>Crusaders</strong></p><ul><li>“Holy Steed” and “Unholy Steed” now grant 25% run speed.</li></ul><p>Cuz you know... important stuff here. My only guess as to why time was taken to go into code and change the value of these two variables is new eq2x players that purchase a crusader would have been dissapointed with only a 20% mount.</p></blockquote><p>last i checked the mount speed was at 10% not 20%.... So 10% - 25% is not tooooo bad (though still pointless). Even at 25% it is still well under what it originally was at durring launch (and well into it) which if memory serves was 40%.</p>

[Boli32]

<p><cite>Controlor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Good news! Shadowknights and paladins got buffed on test.</p><p><strong>Crusaders</strong></p><ul><li>“Holy Steed” and “Unholy Steed” now grant 25% run speed.</li></ul><p>Cuz you know... important stuff here. My only guess as to why time was taken to go into code and change the value of these two variables is new eq2x players that purchase a crusader would have been dissapointed with only a 20% mount.</p></blockquote><p>last i checked the mount speed was at 10% not 20%.... So 10% - 25% is not tooooo bad (though still pointless). Even at 25% it is still well under what it originally was at durring launch (and well into it) which if memory serves was 40%.</p></blockquote><p>it was 40% at launch which caused no end of complaints and calls for a nerf and it was reduced to 10% thereafter as it was "fluff" which was semi useful.</p><p>This was when it was massively expensive to get mounts.. back when 1plat meant something <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[aislynn00]

<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No it will be overpowered... there is NO WAY crusaders will gain strikethrough immunity whist warriors (guardians) do not.</p><p>Honestly it would be better to have defensive stance where you are immune to things like strikethrough, knockback  and have an increased resistance to stuns, interrupts, stifles, dazes etc... but as of right now just gifting crusaders immunity to strikethrough is waaaaay too much Overpowering; with or without knight's stance (which I reallly wish people will stop ruddy mentioing.. just give out more and more easily obtainable twohanders so we CAN DPS without a shield).</p><p>Indicentally fun fact pallys defensive stance is called knight's stance also making your orginal statement a never ending logic loop <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Paly full on defensive no KS wearing a shield still isn't more defensive then a full on defensive guardian.</p></blockquote><p>Since the heal nerf full defensive pally is no where near a full defensive guard as we have no reliable way to deal with spike damage we may take *slightly less* damage generally but that isn't what kills you... the double attack and AoE close together is what makes Boli go splat.</p></blockquote><p>And here I thought that was why you had 1) your wards (which can be cast vs every single AE, making it less likely that you will be single-shotted), 2) Divine Aura (which completely negates any auto-attack hit just fine for 10 seconds), 3) Lay on Hands, 4) Sigil of Heroism (around 1700 additional mitigation vs, say, auto-attacks and physical AE's), 5) permanent 10% Damage Reduction (takes even more of the edge off those physical AE's), and 10% auto-healing (which is applied right after each of the two auto-attacks and the AE hit, assuming the AE didn't kill you by itself).</p><p>Meanwhile, guardians have Tower of Stone, the undoubtedly best way of dealing with a single damage spike that you know is coming.  ToS can be pre-cast vs one AE every 60 seconds, a figure which can't be improved upon, since the base recast time of ToS is two minutes. </p><p>It is really too damned bad most mobs AE four to six times every minute, so guardians have the best spike damage survivability vs <em>one </em>AE out of every four to six, and the worst the rest of the time.</p><p>Heck, even if we decide to try to block just <em>one single AE</em> out of the three to four that virtually every raid mob cycles through, it still doesn't work all the time, since the vast majority of AE's are on a 40 - 45 sec reuse timer.  In other words, ToS is, at most, able to block every <em>other</em> AE of one particular type. </p><p>So, if a mob uses six AE's a minute and we want to block, say, the trauma AE, we would end up blocking one AE every 80 - 90 seconds using ToS.  That is <em>one AE out of six to eight</em>.</p><p>Add in Last Man Standing, which is able to block one AE every 5 minutes (this <em>can</em> be reduced further via Jester's Cap and the like), and under even the best of circumstances, we <em>still</em> can't consistently block <em>one single AE</em> throughout a fight.</p><p>And that makes you "no near as defensive" as guardians? </p><p>Give me a frigging break. </p><p>There is one single fight in the tier 9--<em>one</em>--in which guardians actually have an easier time staying alive than paladins and berserkers, and that is exclusively because one of the AE's in said fight frequently one-shots the tank, irrespective of the class, so stoneskins or dramatic damage reduction (e.g., Adrenaline) effectively become a necessity.</p><p>One fight in the entire frigging expansion.   And that makes paladins "no near as defensive" as guardians?</p>

[aislynn00]

<p><cite>RAYVEN2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>When people from top progression guilds say "we've used a Guardian MT since before TSO maybe the issues with guardians are not that bad" and someone else just berates them for telling the truth who's argument is baseless?    </p></blockquote><p>Nobody is claiming that guardians are unable to tank SF raid content. </p><p>The only mob I can think of right now that a guardian probably can't handle without a lot of unnecessary jumping through hoops on the part of the healers is Klaaktus on hard-mode, since we aren't immune to fear whereas crusaders are.</p><p>What a lot of guardians and others are stating is that all the other fighters are able to handle the very same raid mobs--usually more easily when considering berserkers and paladins--while bringing a lot more utility and DPS to the table.</p><p>Thus, two scenarios present themselves:</p><p>1) If guardians are <em>supposed</em> to afford less utility and DPS, then we should have more survivability.  If the difference in utility and DPS is massive--and it currently is--then the same should apply to the survivability difference, so only we should be able to tank hard-mode raid mobs consistently and reliably.</p><p>2) If, on the other hand, all fighters are supposed to be able to reliably tank the same content with equivalent gear, then it follows that all tanks should have equivalent DPS and utility.  This, in turn, implies that guardians need a massive DPS and utility upgrade.</p><p>I'd personally go with 1) if it were up to me, but option 2) is acceptable, too, if implemented properly.  The status quo, however, is untenable.</p>

[Dread_Fang]

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=484518&post_id=5432455" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=48451...post_id=5432455</a> **Neither is your trolling**

[Controlor]

<p><cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><p>And here I thought that was why you had 1) <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>your wards</strong></span> (which can be cast vs every single AE, making it less likely that you will be single-shotted), 2) <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>Divine Aura</strong></span> (which completely negates any auto-attack hit just fine for 10 seconds), 3) <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">Lay on Hands</span></strong>, 4) <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>Sigil of Heroism</strong></span> (around 1700 additional mitigation vs, say, auto-attacks and physical AE's), 5) permanent 10% Damage Reduction (takes even more of the edge off those physical AE's), and 10% auto-healing (which is applied right after each of the two auto-attacks and the AE hit, assuming the AE didn't kill you by itself).</p><p>Meanwhile, guardians have Tower of Stone, the undoubtedly best way of dealing with a single damage spike that you know is coming.  ToS can be pre-cast vs one AE every 60 seconds, a figure which can't be improved upon, since the base recast time of ToS is two minutes. </p><p>It is really too damned bad most mobs AE four to six times every minute, so guardians have the best spike damage survivability vs <em>one </em>AE out of every four to six, and the worst the rest of the time.</p><p>Heck, even if we decide to try to block just <em>one single AE</em> out of the three to four that virtually every raid mob cycles through, it still doesn't work all the time, since the vast majority of AE's are on a 40 - 45 sec reuse timer.  In other words, ToS is, at most, able to block every <em>other</em> AE of one particular type. </p><p>So, if a mob uses six AE's a minute and we want to block, say, the trauma AE, we would end up blocking one AE every 80 - 90 seconds using ToS.  That is <em>one AE out of six to eight</em>.</p><p>Add in Last Man Standing, which is able to block one AE every 5 minutes (this <em>can</em> be reduced further via Jester's Cap and the like), and under even the best of circumstances, we <em>still</em> can't consistently block <em>one single AE</em> throughout a fight.</p><p>And that makes you "no near as defensive" as guardians? </p><p>Give me a frigging break. </p><p>There is one single fight in the tier 9--<em>one</em>--in which guardians actually have an easier time staying alive than paladins and berserkers, and that is exclusively because one of the AE's in said fight frequently one-shots the tank, irrespective of the class, so stoneskins or dramatic damage reduction (e.g., Adrenaline) effectively become a necessity.</p><p>One fight in the entire frigging expansion.   And that makes paladins "no near as defensive" as guardians?</p></blockquote><p>I wont comment on guardian survivability as i do not know that class. Though from just experience MTing / OTing raids i can visually see that with same group set up that our guard MT takes significantly less spike damage than me. (and we have pretty much same gear). But enough of that i am here to comment on the bold red text above.</p><p>1) Our wards do NOT help significantly with spike damage THIS is what we are asking for in the first place. ALL of our heals have been drastically limited by the fact that they do not crit. As it is now it wards about 15% of our health (And the more health we have the less it wards for). So if we cast it before an aoe incoming we may be at 25% health instead of 10% health (weeeee). The next hit kills us regardless.</p><p>2) Lay Hands. Again going back to it not critting and it not scaling with our health. It heals for about 30-40% of our health. THAT is nothing when its an "OOH NO" spell on a 5 min reuse that costs us about 4-5% power to cast.</p><p>3) Divine Aura (Well no paladin takes this ability as it only stops damage if it is under 50% of our health so spike damage its useless). You are probably refering to Stonewall. This is a 10 second duration buff that prevents melee swings and trauma aoe's HOWEVER it is NOT immune to striketrhough. So yah sure you may prevent SOME of the incoming melee / trauma damage you are NOT guaranteed to prevent it all.</p><p>4) Sigil of Heroism. It takes a red adorn to get the +mit% increase. But weee another 1500 mit if your already over cap. How useful is that? It is the same issue with guard abilities that give you mit when your at cap, and this is "one" of the reasons they are changing mit next expac. But until that change that red adorn is very very limited in use.</p>

[Boli32]

<p>Note:  I did not say the abov it was just a bad trimming of a quote.</p><p>Point remains that when 90% of your abilities revolve around healing.. which was nerfed drastically to 20-30% of its capability it simply does not scale correctly the higher the mobs you fight. So something which is perceived as "overpowered" solo and group becomes useless in raid especially against HM mobs.</p><p>What paladins need is somethgin which scales well from solo to raid enviroment; and if SoE refuse to have us "heal too much" (which ironically we now heal LESS than zerkers and SKs) then there has to be other ways of reducing incming damage.</p><p>Funny thing about Stoneskins - they prevent like 200 damage solo... and 20,000 damage in raids... ergo they scale.</p><p>Heals (ward) will stop 2,000 damage solo and still prevetn 2,000 damage against a 20,000 hit as well. they do NOT scale.</p>

[Soul_Dreamer]

<p>Which is why stone skins are so drastically limited in number and duration.</p><p>A Guardian can stone skin:</p><p>4 hits every 2 minutes with Tower of Stone.7 hits every 5 minutes with Last man standing.25% chance to stone skin a hit for 20 seconds every 3 minutes with Guardian Sphere.</p><p>How often can a Paladin heal themselves, in the long run a Paladin will take less damage than a Guardian, especially when you take into account their 10% innate damage reduction. Yes a Guardian can stop/reduce the odd spike, but if these abilities are being used to reduce AOE damage then they won't be up when needed to stop other spikes.</p><p>As a Paladin you want more abilities to handle spikes.... What exactly are you willing to give up because Guardians have the least Hate/DPS/Utility/AOE Hate/AOE DPS of ALL other plate tanks bar none. </p><p>PS... "Story of a new Guardian"..1. Create char2. Level to 903. See <insert tank name here> do everything you can do but better and more easily.4. Betray/re roll.</p>

[Controlor]

<p>Yes it was Boli sorry .... forgot to delete your name it was a quote from Karnos</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As a Paladin you want more abilities to handle spikes.... What exactly are you willing to give up because Guardians have the least Hate/DPS/Utility/AOE Hate/AOE DPS of ALL other plate tanks bar none. </p></blockquote><p>Real good way of putting it. 'IF' you currently can't handle spikes then what are you gonna give up for that ability? You have to much now. Your dps is crazy, your hate is just stupid with high DPS and amends, your survivability is way higher than Guardians except for 'maybe' some raid spike damage and your raid/group utility is very nice.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">List what you'll give up for your ability to 'easily' handle spike damage and we'll discuss.</span></p>

[Cyrdemac]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As a Paladin you want more abilities to handle spikes.... What exactly are you willing to give up because Guardians have the least Hate/DPS/Utility/AOE Hate/AOE DPS of ALL other plate tanks bar none. </p></blockquote><p>Real good way of putting it. 'IF' you currently can't handle spikes then what are you gonna give up for that ability? You have to much now. Your dps is crazy, your hate is just stupid with high DPS and amends, your survivability is way higher than Guardians except for 'maybe' some raid spike damage and your raid/group utility is very nice.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">List what you'll give up for your ability to 'easily' handle spike damage and we'll discuss.</span></p></blockquote><p>Our Heals? They are next to useless anyway in the current state and Paladins get outhealed by other tanks, wich is ridiculous.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>If you play a paladin thats freshly minted on a new account and you don't help it out financially to afford the good gear and spells.... you're going to have a really rough time doing much of anything. Seriously, take out the good gear and don some mastercrafted/"standard" gear while playing a non capped paladin through say the 40s-70s content, THEN say paladins are OP or even really that OK. I dare you. I have to say though that with 80-90 MC being substancially better than the paladin's t3 shard armor options and content being more or less tailored to t2-t3 shard armor, MC brellium is sitting at a pretty enjoyable and fair level.</p><p>It's not right to balance an entire class from level 1 naked to level 90 stacked in top end gear purely off the numbers that are produced at the cap. You can't ignore the top levels in balance considerations, but ignoring the consequences it has on the entire range of levels/gear will cripple newcomers and those that are up and coming. We all know that EQ2 is extremely unfriendly to newbies and this is no exception to the long and increasing reasons of why that is.</p><p>This heal change for crusaders came about because of gear at the top ends causing massive OP healing powers. Logic says that if you don't fix the source of the problem you're just creating a new one. The heal change completely cripples paladins that aren't endowed with [Removed for Content] gear/cap level/high aas. I'm not pretending to have the answer to the problem, but I am cheesed that a large portion of the paladin experience for newcomers suffers because of unbalanced conditional, situational, and by no means unique to the crusader occurances for the top end players fighting <strong>semi</strong>-trivial content.</p><p>BTW, amends is not that omg OP anymore and hasn't for a loooooong time. Despite the fact you probably already know, go look up how much of amends a paladin actually gets in proper groups. Groups where there isn't proper utility likely will result in the paladin running short on power quickly in which case they need to rely on amends to counter their reduced use of abilities/dps to conserve power to match the group's speed.</p>