Guardian Changes [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Undorett

08-29-2010, 06:39 PM

The guardian changes are a nice start. It looks like we have the Trak shield buff as our new end-line skill, recapture will finally work for heroic content, and our pointless cripple AA line is gone. I understand that we will not be getting the needed boost to our DPS to put us more in line with the other 5 fighter classes while trying to DPS. While I disagree and feel we should be able to bring DPS to the table when DPSing as the other tanks can I will be keeping in line with that mentality, and I think that there are a few additional changes that need to go live with this update. 1. Increase the radius of the new Plant skill to be effective for when a mob gets away from you…we finally got a blue AOE taunt, but at a range of 5m it’s not very useful. 2. Drop the cast time of Tower of Stone from 1 second to instant (or 0.25s) to be more in line with other save type skills. 3. Rescue and Reinforcement used to be able to be chosen without having to take additional AA’s many of us would consider useless, however where they were placed in the new tree we are basically required to take Enhance Shout to get to them costing more AA than it did previously. 4. Enhance Plant doesn’t fit in the line it is in, the line is a line to boost our defensive capabilities – best suggestion here is to make this a second Enhance Call of Shielding – unlike the boost placed in the “Got Your Back” line this one should add something special to the raid-wide buff like every other fighter has (brawlers get an accuracy bonus to the raid, zerkers get a reuse bonus to the raid, crusaders get a potency buff to the raid) I suggest having it be a raid wide damage reduction which would be in line with what that AA tree and the guardian are all about. Move the Enhance Plant skill to the new Aggression line. 4b. I suggest adding moving the plant skill to the 5 spot, moving rescue and reinforcement to the 3-4 spots and combining enhance shout and enhance provoke into enhance taunts which would increase both provoke and shout by 5%/rank. 5. You touched Iron Will without making it a worthwhile buff outside of PVP. Adding a snare reduction is nice for when I am in Battlegrounds next, but the stamina portion of the buff is still not useful to a tank who can very easily hit the hard cap for stamina. Please either remove the hard cap for stamina as you did for our main stats at the beginning of the expansion, or revise the skill to offer health instead of stamina so that the buff is useful to all guardians.6. Last Man Standing has no minimum damage component and as such is used up VERY quickly. Please change this from seven procs to a duration buff (maybe lasts 7-10s instead of its current state). Many suggestions have been made by the guardian community in the past month since these changes were announced, please continue to take feedback to improve the class in ways you are willing to do so.

Yimway

08-30-2010, 05:48 PM

Plant - 5m - This must be a bug, if not, its a very, very tasteless joke.The ordering and moving of the AA lines you mentioned I 100% agree with. My guess is, looking at it, it was purposefully designed to have us waste a lot of points to get anything useful.Iron Will is still missing being updated to be relevant for current game mechanics. I don't understand Xelgad's reluctance to fix this. It is very clear a +sta buff was always intended to buff the guardian's personal HP. Now that we are at cap, why is it so hard to recognize it needs to change from stat to just an HP buff?LMS - Good luck getting this changes, but yes it would be very nice if it only proc'd on damage over 50%, or if it just had a fixed durration. I think the solution is only procing if over x% of hp. The fixed durration effect is perhaps unbalancing as it scales evenly between ST and AoE content.

Undorett

08-30-2010, 06:02 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>LMS - Good luck getting this changes, but yes it would be very nice if it only proc'd on damage over 50%, or if it just had a fixed durration. I think the solution is only procing if over x% of hp. The fixed durration effect is perhaps unbalancing as it scales evenly between ST and AoE content.</blockquote>I suggested to Xelgad at FF that it should have a minimum damage component similar to Tower of Stone. He recognized that it was not nearly as useful as he intended and that this would be a good solution, but said there was a coding issue with it. I didn't understand why a coding issue would exist, but reluctantly accepted his answer. Assuming there is a coding issue to have a proc that absorbs a certain percent of damage have a minimum damage that it would fire off of as well, I think the only real compromise is to give the skill infinite charges with a small duration. Besides, I thought they did away with the whole AOE vs ST tanking BS mentality when they canned the fighter revamp over a year ago, not that they did away with the groundwork that went into it when TSO launched.

Yimway

08-30-2010, 06:04 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>LMS - Good luck getting this changes, but yes it would be very nice if it only proc'd on damage over 50%, or if it just had a fixed durration. I think the solution is only procing if over x% of hp. The fixed durration effect is perhaps unbalancing as it scales evenly between ST and AoE content.</blockquote>I suggested to Xelgad at FF that it should have a minimum damage component similar to Tower of Stone. He recognized that it was not nearly as useful as he intended and that this would be a good solution, but said there was a coding issue with it. I didn't understand why a coding issue would exist, but reluctantly accepted his answer. </blockquote>If there is a coding issue, then it needs to be straight durration until the figure out their code issues.All in all, these changes represent alot of effort on their part that will amount to almost nothing changed for us.

Xelgad

08-30-2010, 08:44 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>The guardian changes are a nice start. It looks like we have the Trak shield buff as our new end-line skill, recapture will finally work for heroic content, and our pointless cripple AA line is gone. I understand that we will not be getting the needed boost to our DPS to put us more in line with the other 5 fighter classes while trying to DPS. While I disagree and feel we should be able to bring DPS to the table when DPSing as the other tanks can I will be keeping in line with that mentality, and I think that there are a few additional changes that need to go live with this update. 1. Increase the radius of the new Plant skill to be effective for when a mob gets away from you…we finally got a blue AOE taunt, but at a range of 5m it’s not very useful. 2. Drop the cast time of Tower of Stone from 1 second to instant (or 0.25s) to be more in line with other save type skills. 3. Rescue and Reinforcement used to be able to be chosen without having to take additional AA’s many of us would consider useless, however where they were placed in the new tree we are basically required to take Enhance Shout to get to them costing more AA than it did previously. 4. Enhance Plant doesn’t fit in the line it is in, the line is a line to boost our defensive capabilities – best suggestion here is to make this a second Enhance Call of Shielding – unlike the boost placed in the “Got Your Back” line this one should add something special to the raid-wide buff like every other fighter has (brawlers get an accuracy bonus to the raid, zerkers get a reuse bonus to the raid, crusaders get a potency buff to the raid) I suggest having it be a raid wide damage reduction which would be in line with what that AA tree and the guardian are all about. Move the Enhance Plant skill to the new Aggression line. 4b. I suggest adding moving the plant skill to the 5 spot, moving rescue and reinforcement to the 3-4 spots and combining enhance shout and enhance provoke into enhance taunts which would increase both provoke and shout by 5%/rank. 5. You touched Iron Will without making it a worthwhile buff outside of PVP. Adding a snare reduction is nice for when I am in Battlegrounds next, but the stamina portion of the buff is still not useful to a tank who can very easily hit the hard cap for stamina. Please either remove the hard cap for stamina as you did for our main stats at the beginning of the expansion, or revise the skill to offer health instead of stamina so that the buff is useful to all guardians.6. Last Man Standing has no minimum damage component and as such is used up VERY quickly. Please change this from seven procs to a duration buff (maybe lasts 7-10s instead of its current state). Many suggestions have been made by the guardian community in the past month since these changes were announced, please continue to take feedback to improve the class in ways you are willing to do so.</blockquote>1) The 5 meter range is in line with some other blue AE taunts such as the Bruiser advancement "Wild Beating." We can add a radius increaser to the advancement to help a bit.2) I think that might make the ability too versatile considering its relatively short recast. Currently it's a very strong ability, especially when used proactively. Since most AEs and hard hitting spells have a two second casting time, you can probably cast it as you see it's incoming.3, 4, and 4b) I like these ideas overall. Currently, the plan is to combine the taunt advancements as you suggested, move Rescue up to where Shout in on test currently, and move Enhance: Plant (with 20% radius increase per point added) to where Enhance: Rescue is currently on test. Enhance: Reinforcement would stay in the same spot as it is on test. Raidwide damage reduction would be too powerful in the slot where Enhance: Plant currently is located so right now it is Enhance: Armored and increases block chance when in defensive stance. Other suggestions for this slot would be welcomed.5) Well, there are some raid mobs with snares as well. I was specifically thinking about the fishman in Perah'Celsis and his hard mode with this change.6) The code issue was due to our use of damage reduction instead of a normal stoneskin, but we should be able to change it to a stoneskin ability so that it functions similar Tower of Stone but with more triggers and no casting time.You should be seeing these adjustments on test soon.

Undorett

08-30-2010, 10:24 PM

1) The addition of range to the plant skill would make the skill somewhat useful. The skill is a taunt with a lock component, the skill is more akin to Insolence than to Wild Beating which is also a positional + damage skill. 2) It is the one saving skill to the guardian class, the skill that other fighters wish they had, I don't think you could change it in any way to make it "too versatile" =/3-4) Sounds good, I cannot say I am a fan of yet another thing being added to my defensive stance, but I wouldn't turn down more block chance. 5) As a guardian I don't joust the easy fish, I use a stoneskin ability and continue on with life, and on the hard version I am off tanking Ark where the fish's Snare does not affect me. The only other raid mob I can think of off the top of my head where snare can be annoying is Horaastaas, however snare reduction abilities such as Nature Walk do not affect the snares on this fight for some reason =/ - again, the original intent of the ability was to add health to the guardian, and it no longer serves this function.6) ExcellentIn addition to this there are several other problems outside of our lack of DPS.7) On test currently there is the Enhance Hate AA where Enhance Sever currently is. This gives us an additional 2% hate per rank. Do you plan to uncap hate from its current cap of 50%? Right now guardians can get 10% in the warrior tree 10% from this AA and 5% from Improved Moderation. We spoke at FF regarding this AA and you agreed that we didn't need another AA adding to our Hate Mod. If this says as is, can it not count toward the Hate cap thus throwing 5pts into this AA would cap guards at 60% instead of 50% OR uncap hate. If not, can you rethink the AA?8) Our + mit buffs are currently pretty useless. We are supposed to be able to mitigate the most damage due to our lack of DPS, yet any fighter can don the defensive set and be capped on mit. Many guardians have suggested turning these into damage absorption abilities. Thoughts?9) Our death prevention is still pretty bad, finally this expansion it doesn't kill us anymore at least. Any way we can get this thing to be a maintained buff?

slippery

08-30-2010, 11:29 PM

The snare reduction made me think of the fish as well, however even with that it is of limited usefulness as there are other ways to deal with it where you don't have to joust. Any chance of looking at Sentry Watch? The skill doesn't see a whole lot of use because odds are if it is going to kill someone else in the group and you take all that damage instead plus whatever damage you normally would have taken you are now dead. In regards to the mit buffs thing, I don't feel they are useless. They may not be of personal use, but that doesn't mean they aren't useful. The group one is good for helping your group take less damage from trauma ae's, which usually hit pretty hard. The single one that used to snare can give you 10% block chance with aa's, which is nice as well.

Landiin

08-31-2010, 12:43 AM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>The guardian changes are a nice start. It looks like we have the Trak shield buff as our new end-line skill, recapture will finally work for heroic content, and our pointless cripple AA line is gone. I understand that we will not be getting the needed boost to our DPS to put us more in line with the other 5 fighter classes while trying to DPS. While I disagree and feel we should be able to bring DPS to the table when DPSing as the other tanks can I will be keeping in line with that mentality, and I think that there are a few additional changes that need to go live with this update. 1. Increase the radius of the new Plant skill to be effective for when a mob gets away from you…we finally got a blue AOE taunt, but at a range of 5m it’s not very useful. 2. Drop the cast time of Tower of Stone from 1 second to instant (or 0.25s) to be more in line with other save type skills. 3. Rescue and Reinforcement used to be able to be chosen without having to take additional AA’s many of us would consider useless, however where they were placed in the new tree we are basically required to take Enhance Shout to get to them costing more AA than it did previously. 4. Enhance Plant doesn’t fit in the line it is in, the line is a line to boost our defensive capabilities – best suggestion here is to make this a second Enhance Call of Shielding – unlike the boost placed in the “Got Your Back” line this one should add something special to the raid-wide buff like every other fighter has (brawlers get an accuracy bonus to the raid, zerkers get a reuse bonus to the raid, crusaders get a potency buff to the raid) I suggest having it be a raid wide damage reduction which would be in line with what that AA tree and the guardian are all about. Move the Enhance Plant skill to the new Aggression line. 4b. I suggest adding moving the plant skill to the 5 spot, moving rescue and reinforcement to the 3-4 spots and combining enhance shout and enhance provoke into enhance taunts which would increase both provoke and shout by 5%/rank. 5. You touched Iron Will without making it a worthwhile buff outside of PVP. Adding a snare reduction is nice for when I am in Battlegrounds next, but the stamina portion of the buff is still not useful to a tank who can very easily hit the hard cap for stamina. Please either remove the hard cap for stamina as you did for our main stats at the beginning of the expansion, or revise the skill to offer health instead of stamina so that the buff is useful to all guardians.6. Last Man Standing has no minimum damage component and as such is used up VERY quickly. Please change this from seven procs to a duration buff (maybe lasts 7-10s instead of its current state). Many suggestions have been made by the guardian community in the past month since these changes were announced, please continue to take feedback to improve the class in ways you are willing to do so.</blockquote>1) The 5 meter range is in line with some other blue AE taunts such as the Bruiser advancement "Wild Beating." We can add a radius increaser to the advancement to help a bit.2) I think that might make the ability too versatile considering its relatively short recast. Currently it's a very strong ability, especially when used proactively. Since most AEs and hard hitting spells have a two second casting time, you can probably cast it as you see it's incoming.3, 4, and 4b) I like these ideas overall. Currently, the plan is to combine the taunt advancements as you suggested, move Rescue up to where Shout in on test currently, and move Enhance: Plant (with 20% radius increase per point added) to where Enhance: Rescue is currently on test. Enhance: Reinforcement would stay in the same spot as it is on test. Raidwide damage reduction would be too powerful in the slot where Enhance: Plant currently is located so right now it is Enhance: Armored and increases block chance when in defensive stance. Other suggestions for this slot would be welcomed.5) Well, there are some raid mobs with snares as well. I was specifically thinking about the fishman in Perah'Celsis and his hard mode with this change.6) The code issue was due to our use of damage reduction instead of a normal stoneskin, but we should be able to change it to a stoneskin ability so that it functions similar Tower of Stone but with more triggers and no casting time.You should be seeing these adjustments on test soon.</blockquote>Enhance: Plant (with 20% radius increase per point added)Any chance on increasing the final percent to equal 15 meters? (never hurts to ask right? )Enhance: Armored and increases block chance when in defensive stanceWould it be possible to add Increases + Hate cap to 75% when shield eqpt. Or give us a good boost in DSP with shield eqpt but I don't see u wanting to do that so I asked for hate cap increase.

Davngr1

08-31-2010, 01:12 AM

you guys do realize that plant is a green ability right? meaing that unless it has been changed it's only an encounter root/debuff not a true open area effect.

Brildean

08-31-2010, 01:24 AM

xelgad, aoe auto isn't firing off our offhand wep and flurry isn't also.

Gungo

08-31-2010, 01:29 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>you guys do realize that plant is a green ability right? meaing that unless it has been changed it's only an encounter root/debuff not a true open area effect.</blockquote>You do realize plant has been completely changed on test to a blue aoe taunt and encounter lock.

Gungo

08-31-2010, 01:29 AM

<cite>Brildean wrote:</cite><blockquote>xelgad, aoe auto isn't firing off our offhand wep and flurry isn't also.</blockquote>It is not on test yet.

Onorem

08-31-2010, 02:04 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>you guys do realize that plant is a green ability right? meaing that unless it has been changed it's only an encounter root/debuff not a true open area effect.</blockquote>It's had a blue background on my screen for some time now. (always as far as I can recall) Are you saying it's been working as an encounter ability while appearing as an AoE all this time?

Davngr1

08-31-2010, 02:04 AM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>you guys do realize that plant is a green ability right? meaing that unless it has been changed it's only an encounter root/debuff not a true open area effect.</blockquote>You do realize plant has been completely changed on test to a blue aoe taunt and encounter lock.</blockquote>hense..

Undorett

08-31-2010, 02:42 AM

<cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>In regards to the mit buffs thing, I don't feel they are useless. They may not be of personal use, but that doesn't mean they aren't useful. The group one is good for helping your group take less damage from trauma ae's, which usually hit pretty hard. The single one that used to snare can give you 10% block chance with aa's, which is nice as well.</blockquote>While the group wide mit buff does offer some survivability on trauma AOEs, it offers very little directly to the guardian, and if it was changed to a damage reduction ability, it would offer the same survivability benefit to the group while also adding a benefit to the guardian. I also realize that you can place 5AA into the personal mitigation boost to gain 10 block chance...so the skill only has a benefit if you put 5AA into it, and the benefit you get out of it is an increase of about 1% avoidance somewhere around 50% of the time. This skill was meant to make you into a brick wall at the cost of your DPS, but with the current mechanics and loot in the game, it just doesn't do much of anything.

Gungo

08-31-2010, 03:14 AM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>you guys do realize that plant is a green ability right? meaing that unless it has been changed it's only an encounter root/debuff not a true open area effect.</blockquote>You do realize plant has been completely changed on test to a blue aoe taunt and encounter lock.</blockquote>hense.. </blockquote>Sorry let me clarify, You do realize plant was always a Blue ability in the first place.

Kain-UK

08-31-2010, 06:34 AM

Hm... I dunno about others, but I'm looking at this and thinking it would probably be a good idea to swap "Enhance: Call of Shielding" and "Enhance: Call to Arms". With only 224AA on my Guardian right now, I'd rather put those 3 points I spent in Call to Arms into something else, rather than having to use them to unlock Call of Shielding. For example, I could drop them into the Enhance: Plant (which I know is getting moved).Maybe I'm the only one tho thinks swapping those two is wise... but that's just my opinions thus far. Taking into account the changed Xelgad has said will be on test soon, I like the way the guardian tree is shaping up.

MurFalad

08-31-2010, 07:15 AM

I've not had a chance to play with these changes yet, although they look good and interesting. The only one problem I had was with last man standing where in PVP it lasts about 0.1s due to all the proc's, but I see the problem is noted.<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>In addition to this there are several other problems outside of our lack of DPS.7) On test currently there is the Enhance Hate AA where Enhance Sever currently is. This gives us an additional 2% hate per rank. Do you plan to uncap hate from its current cap of 50%? Right now guardians can get 10% in the warrior tree 10% from this AA and 5% from Improved Moderation. We spoke at FF regarding this AA and you agreed that we didn't need another AA adding to our Hate Mod. If this says as is, can it not count toward the Hate cap thus throwing 5pts into this AA would cap guards at 60% instead of 50% OR uncap hate. If not, can you rethink the AA?</blockquote>I think this is a problem too, with a few adornments I'm at +30% hate currently, so I'll almost be capped with this new AA skill. It would be nicer (although maybe overpowered?) if it just upped our CA arts threat by that amount. Either way something is wrong here.<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>9) Our death prevention is still pretty bad, finally this expansion it doesn't kill us anymore at least. Any way we can get this thing to be a maintained buff?</blockquote>Here I think all these death save abilities need to be removed, or put onto short (10s) maximum time limits.The question that I am puzzled over is how exactly do these long timer/unlimited timer death prevention abilities actually improve the game? To me they seem to just negate some of the work the encounter designs do to make challenging content without requiring any player interaction.Right now I can do something dumb (stand next to the mob about to AOE), hit the death prevention up to 3 minutes before the event goes off, and then survive said dumb act. I could see a place for something on a long timer and short duration, but as they are currently they do not add depth/fun to the gameplay.

aislynn00

08-31-2010, 08:30 AM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) The 5 meter range is in line with some other blue AE taunts such as the Bruiser advancement "Wild Beating." We can add a radius increaser to the advancement to help a bit.</blockquote>You should add damage to the ability, even if only a small amount, so it will trigger Hold the Line when Reinforcement is running.Or, as an alternative, simply add a hate position increase to Plant.Another idea might be to add a decent amount of Damage Reduction to the guardian while Plant is running. Given the very short duration, that could hardly be considered overpowered.<blockquote>2) I think that might make the ability too versatile considering its relatively short recast. Currently it's a very strong ability, especially when used proactively. Since most AEs and hard hitting spells have a two second casting time, you can probably cast it as you see it's incoming.</blockquote>I see two problems with your statement:Firstly, since we (unlike SK's, paladins, and berserkers) don't have any kind of maintainable death prevention abilities, we really have to save ToS for when an unexpected damage spike occurs. If we used the ability every time it was up vs the next AE, we would still have to deal with most AE's without ToS (I don't know of any hardmode mob that only AE's once every minute), and if one of them caused a damage spike, perhaps by coinciding with an un-blocked double attack, or the like, we would be left without anything to throw up that would guarantee our survival.Secondly, even if the first point wasn't valid, how are we supposed to "see an AE coming"?AE timers are unreliable, often fluctuating by as much as 10 seconds, occasionally even more, so you can't use ToS reliably based on said timers.If there are some other feasible ways to detect incoming AE's, I really don't know what they would be. A few mobs, such as Xilaxis the Explorer, announce that they are about to use a powerful AE effect, so in such a case, ToS can indeed be used proactively, but vs the vast majority of AE's, there are no indications whatsoever in the logs. If you are referring to spell casting animations, then I'm afraid few raiders will ever see them. Given the lag we have to deal with and the sheer amount of visual clutter the spell effects of 24 raiders introduce, most people have to raid with particle effects off, meaning we don't see any mob casting animations. It has always baffled me that there isn't an option to turn on mob casting animations without the particle effects, or at least to turn on mob casting effects and particle effects without having to enable the player character equivalents.At any rate, as things stand, ToS is, perforce, used as response to damage spikes, and as such, its relatively slow casting time is a major disadvantage. Please change the ability accordingly.<blockquote>3, 4, and 4b) I like these ideas overall. Currently, the plan is to combine the taunt advancements as you suggested, move Rescue up to where Shout in on test currently, and move Enhance: Plant (with 20% radius increase per point added) to where Enhance: Rescue is currently on test. Enhance: Reinforcement would stay in the same spot as it is on test.All of this sounds decent enough, except for the combined taunt advancement. It should add 5% per AA point to all our taunt effects (including Experienced Insight, for instance), not just to our two primary taunt CA's.Raidwide damage reduction would be too powerful in the slot where Enhance: Plant currently is located so right now it is Enhance: Armored and increases block chance when in defensive stance. Other suggestions for this slot would be welcomed.</blockquote>Improving our defensive stance is just fine with me, and block isn't the worst option available. That said, however, it would be far better to add 5% - 10% Damage Reduction instead, something which the class is in sore need of. Given our lack of innate damage reduction, guardians currently take heavier damage spikes than paladins and berserkers alike when our avoidance fails, something which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why is it that berserkers have 5% permanent Damage Reduction (plus another 50% due to Adrenaline more than half the time) and paladins enjoy 10%, when guardians have 0%?<blockquote>5) Well, there are some raid mobs with snares as well. I was specifically thinking about the fishman in Perah'Celsis and his hard mode with this change.</blockquote>The snare effect reduction remains pointless. Even with the modest snare effectiveness reduction currently on test, I can't make it out of curse AE range in time vs easy-mode Xilaxis with his snare detrimental on me, and that is the only fight I can think of where snares even matter (given that nobody does Perah'Celsis instead of Waansu.)If you really insist on retaining the snare reduction, at least turn it into a true snare immunity in PvE. For all I care, keep it as it stands in PvP.A superior solution, though, would be to add something like a chance to outright resist force target, drop target, charm, and/or mez effects.No matter what, the stamina component remains useless. Please change it to straight up HP or uncap stamina. Either will do.<blockquote>6) The code issue was due to our use of damage reduction instead of a normal stoneskin, but we should be able to change it to a stoneskin ability so that it functions similar Tower of Stone but with more triggers and no casting time.</blockquote>A positive change, especially if you add a trigger condition of 20% - 30% of max HP to the stoneskin procs, so they won't be wasted on trivial damage shields and the like.Even with that change, though, I still think the reuse time is too high for what the buff does. It effectively allows you a few seconds without any possible damage spikes once every five minutes. Three minutes would be far more in line with the effect.

Soul_Dreamer

08-31-2010, 09:01 AM

<div>My post from Guardian forums."Got Your Back" is now raidwide and has a 50 meter radius.Still a useless ability, I can't even remember the last time one of our tanks died to an AOE and had a detrimental effect to the raid so why do I need to save them from AOE's? How is a solo/group tank going to make any use of this ability what so ever. The ability is VERY situational and even then only in raids.There are some damage transfers in game, usually cast on the tank by a healer (SOH item - 100% intercept of damage, caster takes 5% target takes 95%). Could you not add something similar of 90% and 10% and castable on other tanks/scouts? The Guardian will take 90% damage, the target of cast 10% damage."Cripple" is now a combat art that deals damage and reduces riposte damage of the target by 75%.I Believe this was removed and is an error on the patch notes."Call of Shielding" now increases the maximum health of the raid as well as the defense skill.OK, but not really enough, the defense is still close to useless and only actually useful for anyone who is actually tanking. Can you change the defense to something equal in your scoring system, regenning ward/mitigation etc, something to help on Melee AOE's."Guardian Sphere" now has a 0.5 second casting time. It lasts for 12-20 seconds (based on spell revision) and grants the guardian a 25% (at master) chance to absorb an attack (same as before) but no longer has max triggers of 6. The interpose effect has been changed to a stoneskin proc at 50% at master.This is a nice change and needed doing, the only thing I would like to see is that the stoneskin is up on the initial cast rather than needing to be procced on inc damage."Recapture" now reduces the hate position of the group members by 1 as well. The reuse is now 45 seconds.Makes the ability somewhat useful for groups."Iron Will" now reduces snare effects on the guardian as well as increases stamina. (36% at master at 90)Lots of things you could have done to change this ability other than just snare, you do know we now have 2 HP buffs and a +Stamina buff, the +Stamina buff is rarely even useful since even Heroic geared Guardians are over the stamina cap. Unless stamina is going to be useful for something once it's over cap this needs changing. Even a small regenning ward would be useful, say 200hp ward... it's about the same value then as the 90 stamina for solo Guardians but actually offers some use to higher geared Guardians."Plant" now forces targets in Area of Effect to target the guardian and increases the guardian's threat slightly. The duration has been slightly reduced.Increase the range, 5m isn't enough, would also be nice if the hate was an AOE DoT, the amount of hate on this is very low and a lot of epic named are immune to target locks, the ability would at least add some hate use against mobs like that then. This ability can NO LONGER be used with re-inforcement which is a nerf!"Enhance: Plant" now improves the duration by 0.4 seconds per point rather than 1.The duration is fine, please increase the hate/add Melee damage to it per point."Double Attack" is now "Flurry" and grants 3% Flurry chance rather than 9% double attack.I gained a HUGE 80 DPS from this 3% flurry, it needs to be higher."Bind Wound" now heals the warrior to full.Helps the soloing Warrior, it would be nice if it was an incombat ability though,always on and maybe if the Warrior drops below 25% HP it triggers and still not castable in combat.The "Crippling" line has been changed to the "Aggression" line:"Enhance: Intercept" also reduces incoming damage to the target of Intercept.Not managed to test it, either - The target already only takes 6% damage, why am I adding 10% damage reduction to that?10k Hit - Target takes 6% = 600 damage, new AA will add 10% damage reduction - 60.... seriously I'm spending 5aa to stop such a small amount of damage on another tank?ORIt's a reduction in the damage we take, in which case that 10% will be 9k, still pretty worthless. Especially for an ability that will be used so infrequently."Enhance: Moderate" now increases the target's crit bonus by 1% rather than reducing hate gain by 2%. Other fighters get abilities that either increase the whole groups/raids CB/Potency and increases it by more than this ability. If it also added the CB to the Guardian or it was double on the target so a total of 10% then yes, I may think about sacrificing 6 AA to even get this ability."Enhance: Rescue" has been moved to slot 4 in the new hate line (formally crippling.)I'll still probably take this as I currently am."Enhance: Reinforcement" has been moved to slot 5 in the new hate line.As Above"Enhance: Rescue" in the original slot has been replaced with "Enhance: Call to Arms" which increases the skill bonuses by 7% per rank.I'll only put points in this to get to Shielding."Enhance: Reinforcement" in the original slot has been replaced with "Enhance: Call of Shielding" which increases the spell by 5% per rank.OK, but it's still defense on it...."Enhance: Ruin" is now "Enhance: Provoke" and increases the threat amount by 7% per point.I always use taunts when they are up, even then though they aren't a large portion of my hate. I'll probably take this to get to Rescue."Enhance: Concussion" is now "Enhance: Shout" and increases the potency and reduces the resist chance of Shout.As above.Taunts do so little of my personal hate even if I use them each time they are available to be used. I can't see this change doing anything noticable.Enhance: Sever" is now "Enhance: Hatred" and increases the guardian's threat generation by 2% per rank.A similar ability is already in the str line of the warrior tree, what is the point in having another one when we're capped at 50%."Cripple" is now "Shoulder the Burdon" and transfers 10% threat from the target group member to the guardian.OK, but all other tanks can get a better version of this from an item from a mob who is blue and 1 groupable."Hold the Line" and "Aggressive Defense" now trigger threat 100% of the time on a successful block.An improvement, but did Zerkers really need improving?"Aggressive Nature" now increases the threat amounts on "Hold the Line" and "Aggressive Defense."As above.Overall AA'sAgression - Most Gaurdians will put a couple of points in the 2 taunts to get rescue, and if they have the points left over increase them to get the end ability. But I'd have thought most will be 3/3 in the taunts, 3 in rescue and 5 in reinforcement.Slaughtering - As is, currently the best line and the staple Gaurdian line for DPS and Hate. Almost all Gaurdian will max ALL these abilities. the 3% Flurry though is worth all of 80 DPS according to my parses.Stability - I just can't see people taking intercept/Sentinel because their gains aren't worth while, our main and only issue is out DPS/Hate, these add to neither so Guardians simply cannot afford to loose points from abilities that do help these.Enhance call to arms and Enhance shielding I Can see people using, probably 3/5 respectively. Sentry watch can still kill us so I don't think many Guardians will take it. This means the end ability is unable to be used because of lack of points in the line, it's also useless anyway so no one will want to use it. IF Sentry watch and Moderate where swapped in positions more people will take enhance moderate but as is I can't see anyone taking it because of the waste of points above it.Block - The usual with a minor change here for me.Temp mit buffs 3/5 (as current), ignore plant since I can now use enhance shout to get enhance UW. 5 in Stone Sphere and 5 in Tower of Stone then 1 in block ( as current).All in all I'm going to take 4 of the new AA's out of the 8 or so you've added and the new agression AA's for taunts I'm only taking so I can get an AA I've always had.. Honestly, if the new AA's where even in remotely the right direction of where Guardians need help I'd take them, as is though most do nothing for the areas Guardians are struggeling (DPS and Hate).All in all, not enough, there is still no DPS balance between Guardian and the other plate tanks and yet they still have our survivability. IF there was a balance between Guardian raw hate and the hate added via DPS for the other plate tanks there still wouldn't be a balance since the other plate tanks DPS has the added benefit of killing the mobs faster as well as the hate it adds.One very minor change would go a long way to adding DPS and hate for Gaurdians. Our mythical buff is currently the worst of all the plate tanks.Current - A.) Riposte Imunity.B.) CC Immunity Proc.C.) Damage reduction and Damage Proc.CHANGE TO A.) Constant buff of - 50% Change to reflect 50% of stoneskinned damage back at the attacker.B.) Leave as is.C.) Leave as is/Move damage reduction to a constant, or increase it back to the 10% it was before the weapon was nerfed.This will mean our abilities Tower of Stone, Stone Sphere, Block have a chance to add some damage when they are used. Sentry watch still has a chance to kill us, this needs to be change as Stonespere has been, a SK doesn't give up personal DPS when he raises the DPS of the group. Why should a Guardian give up personal survivability when he saves group members? So many other imprvements have been posted in other thread I'm not going to go further into it here. But... WHEN will things actually be balanced because from all my testing on test my DPS hasn't increased, there are very minor changes to my hate if I take the new hate abilities and the only change to my survivability is Stonespehere which is currently not proccing it seems.</div>

aislynn00

08-31-2010, 09:29 AM

<cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hm... I dunno about others, but I'm looking at this and thinking it would probably be a good idea to swap "Enhance: Call of Shielding" and "Enhance: Call to Arms".</blockquote>I second this.Enhance: Call to Arms is a very weak AA. I have suggested that it should additionally add 1% Accuracy per AA, which would make the ability solid, but since that didn't seem to fly, I would rather not waste any AA's on it at all.On the other hand, the addtional 250 HP from Enhance: Call of Shielding is actually worth 5 AA points.

Soul_Dreamer

08-31-2010, 09:36 AM

Raidwide damage reduction would be too powerful in the slot where Enhance: Plant currently is located so right now it is Enhance: Armored and increases block chance when in defensive stance. Other suggestions for this slot would be welcomed.Block chance is acceptable although it would depend on the amount added per AA. Last feedback on the Flurry and Got your Back end lines.Flurry - I tested the 3% flurry on test and it gave me about 80 DPS more over a 5 minute fight. As far as I am aware flurry is very similar to double attack with the exception that a double attack cannot double attack again, but a flurried attack has a chance to flurry again.To then balance 9% DA with flurry you need to take into account the chances of latter flurries from the original.Based on 100 attacks..DA - With 9% DA you will have 9% of attacks hitting a second time.100 x 0.09 = 9Flurry - With 3% flurry you will have 3% of attacks hitting a second time, but also 3% of those second attacks hitting a third time, and 3% of those third attacks hitting a fourth time, and so on. 100 x 0.03 = 33 x 0.03 = 0.090.09 x 0.03 = 0.00270.0027 x 0.03 = 0.0000813.092781 extra attacks.At 7% flurry100 x 0.07 = 77 x 0.07 = 0.490.49 x 0.07 = 0.03430.0343 x 0.07 = 0.0024017.5 extra attacksAt 8% Flurry100 x 0.08 = 88 x 0.08 = 0.640.64 x 0.08 = 0.05120.0512 x 0.08 = 0.0040968.695296 extra attacksI've stopped at a flurried attack attacking again after 4 times because the probability that they will when under 25% flurry is too tiny to take into account and also that the extra attacks it adds are very small. As you can see 8% Flurry is only slightly less than 9% Double attack, can we please have the flurry increased to at least 8% since they are then equal.The probability of any attack flurrying for N times is ^ (to the power of ) N.So with 8% flurry chance the probability any attack will flurry N times in a row is..once - 0.08 ^ 1 = 0.082 times - 0.08 ^ 2 = 0.00643 times - 0.08 ^ 3 = 0.0005124 times - 0.08 ^ 4 = 0.000040965 times - 0.08 ^ 5 = 0.00000327686 times - 0.08 ^ 6 = 0.0000002621447 times - 0.08 ^ 7 = 0.00000000823543.N Times - 0.08 ^ N.8.27 % is VERY close to 9% Double attack so would be the best value to equal 9% Double attack.Xelgad - I've posted the above to show that 3% Flurry isn't equal to 9% Double attack, or even close. This isn't just whining or me saying it's not equal, these are the hard numbers and they show that 3% flurry isn't equal to 9% DA. Can this please be changed?"Got your back"Some fighter end abilities are very useful and original, non of the new Guardian abilities really are and most can be replicated with one item of equipment or another. The Stability end line should really be something original and useful. Where do you see the ability currently being used because on all the HM mobs I have fought I can't see much of a use for the ability, even if it was situationally useful I don't think I'd take it due to other lines being far superior in hate and DPS.Rename Stability - Ad the mobs HP goes down the Guardian gains more %Damage absorption, up to a total of 20% EG.When mob is below 80% HP Guardian receives 5% Damage absorption.When mob is below 60% HP Guardian receives 10% Damage absorption.When mob is below 40% HP Guardian receives 15% Damage absorption.When mob is below 20% HP Guardian receives 20% Damage absorption.Paladins have their Mythical, Zerkers have Adrenaline, this won't be 20% all the time but it does suit the Stability line name. As the mob gets less health the Guardian gets more confident of victory.ORChange to Got your BackYou cast the ability on another fighter or scout and they take 10% of your incomming melee damage.

Landiin

08-31-2010, 09:45 AM

n/m

Yimway

08-31-2010, 11:51 AM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>In regards to the mit buffs thing, I don't feel they are useless. They may not be of personal use, but that doesn't mean they aren't useful. The group one is good for helping your group take less damage from trauma ae's, which usually hit pretty hard. The single one that used to snare can give you 10% block chance with aa's, which is nice as well.</blockquote>While the group wide mit buff does offer some survivability on trauma AOEs, it offers very little directly to the guardian, and if it was changed to a damage reduction ability, it would offer the same survivability benefit to the group while also adding a benefit to the guardian. I also realize that you can place 5AA into the personal mitigation boost to gain 10 block chance...so the skill only has a benefit if you put 5AA into it, and the benefit you get out of it is an increase of about 1% avoidance somewhere around 50% of the time. This skill was meant to make you into a brick wall at the cost of your DPS, but with the current mechanics and loot in the game, it just doesn't do much of anything.</blockquote>Also, atleast 90% of my playtime is spent in DW, making the block chance improvement very situational. They were designed to be short term damage mitigation abilities. At inception they set us apart from other tanks in lowering our sustained damage over time. Only with SF with nearly all tanks reaching the effective mitigation caps have these abilities been trivialized.If the mit caps are not changing, these abilities need to be adjusted to be relevant again in the same way they were when orriginally created.

Undorett

08-31-2010, 12:15 PM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) The 5 meter range is in line with some other blue AE taunts such as the Bruiser advancement "Wild Beating." We can add a radius increaser to the advancement to help a bit.</blockquote>You should add damage to the ability, even if only a small amount, so it will trigger Hold the Line when Reinforcement is running.Or, as an alternative, simply add a hate position increase to Plant.Another idea might be to add a decent amount of Damage Reduction to the guardian while Plant is running. Given the very short duration, that could hardly be considered overpowered.</blockquote>I think we would all rather see this CA be 1 position + threat and drop the lock component completely. We already have an agro lock in our TSO tree that never works, having another lock is not at the top of my list. Could change the enhance Plant AA to increase the range and either add a damage component or add more threat. Since SOE has done away with the ST vs AOE tanks mentality, I believe all other tanks have open AOE positional agro tools with the exception of Guardians (and possibly monks?), so this would be a very positive change.<div><cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hm... I dunno about others, but I'm looking at this and thinking it would probably be a good idea to swap "Enhance: Call of Shielding" and "Enhance: Call to Arms". With only 224AA on my Guardian right now, I'd rather put those 3 points I spent in Call to Arms into something else, rather than having to use them to unlock Call of Shielding. For example, I could drop them into the Enhance: Plant (which I know is getting moved).Maybe I'm the only one tho thinks swapping those two is wise... but that's just my opinions thus far. Taking into account the changed Xelgad has said will be on test soon, I like the way the guardian tree is shaping up.</blockquote>I think we would all like these two AAs swapped as none of us really want to spend AA on Call to Arms to gain more s/c/p/r, however I assume he put them in the tree the way he did so that we would have to spend 8pts to get what we actually want out of the tree. The only thing that could be done better would be to swap the Enhance Moderate with Enhance Call to Arms.<div></div></div>

Kain-UK

08-31-2010, 12:48 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) The 5 meter range is in line with some other blue AE taunts such as the Bruiser advancement "Wild Beating." We can add a radius increaser to the advancement to help a bit.</blockquote>You should add damage to the ability, even if only a small amount, so it will trigger Hold the Line when Reinforcement is running.Or, as an alternative, simply add a hate position increase to Plant.Another idea might be to add a decent amount of Damage Reduction to the guardian while Plant is running. Given the very short duration, that could hardly be considered overpowered.</blockquote>I think we would all rather see this CA be 1 position + threat and drop the lock component completely. We already have an agro lock in our TSO tree that never works, having another lock is not at the top of my list. Could change the enhance Plant AA to increase the range and either add a damage component or add more threat. Since SOE has done away with the ST vs AOE tanks mentality, I believe all other tanks have open AOE positional agro tools with the exception of Guardians (and possibly monks?), so this would be a very positive change.<div><cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hm... I dunno about others, but I'm looking at this and thinking it would probably be a good idea to swap "Enhance: Call of Shielding" and "Enhance: Call to Arms". With only 224AA on my Guardian right now, I'd rather put those 3 points I spent in Call to Arms into something else, rather than having to use them to unlock Call of Shielding. For example, I could drop them into the Enhance: Plant (which I know is getting moved).Maybe I'm the only one tho thinks swapping those two is wise... but that's just my opinions thus far. Taking into account the changed Xelgad has said will be on test soon, I like the way the guardian tree is shaping up.</blockquote>I think we would all like these two AAs swapped as none of us really want to spend AA on Call to Arms to gain more s/c/p/r, however I assume he put them in the tree the way he did so that we would have to spend 8pts to get what we actually want out of the tree. The only thing that could be done better would be to swap the Enhance Moderate with Enhance Call to Arms.</div></blockquote>I figured it was something like that, I just hate being forced to take something potentially useless.

bishoph

08-31-2010, 02:46 PM

A change to "Shoulder the Burdon" from transfers 10% threat from the target group member to the guardian, to something that affects us better might be good. If it pulled from the whole group that would be nice, but I doubt that would happen. To me it might be a bit over powered. Maybe this can be the gain to the hate cap people are asking for. Even with out a Bard and chanter in group, with gear procs its easy to hit the 50% mark with no points in +Hate.

Undorett

08-31-2010, 03:17 PM

Ouch, I read that ability wrong...10% from one group member is quite a poor transfer and a poor end line ability. This should be bumped up to what a standard scout transfer is, about half of what pally's get for a transfer

Aule

08-31-2010, 04:21 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Last feedback on the Flurry and Got your Back end lines.Flurry - I tested the 3% flurry on test and it gave me about 80 DPS more over a 5 minute fight. As far as I am aware flurry is very similar to double attack with the exception that a double attack cannot double attack again, but a flurried attack has a chance to flurry again.To then balance 9% DA with flurry you need to take into account the chances of latter flurries from the original.Based on 100 attacks..DA - With 9% DA you will have 9% of attacks hitting a second time.100 x 0.09 = 9With 9% DA you will gain zero dps because you were already beyond 100% DA so gaining 9 more added nothing.Flurry - With 3% flurry you will have 3% of attacks hitting a second time, but also 3% of those second attacks hitting a third time, and 3% of those third attacks hitting a fourth time, and so on. Please don't make up random ideas on how you think something works. That just spreads bad information that other people who also don't test anything will quote.5 minutes after going afk while swinging at an epic training dummy, I have this:Flurry 4Flurry 2Flurry 4Flurry 2Flurry 4Flurry 4Flurry 2Flurry 3Flurry 4Flurry 2With 8% flurry and a 6.0s two hander on for testing purposes, from 106 swings I had 106 double attacks and 31 flurries. 5 of those were 4 swings, 1 was 3 swings, and 4 were 2 swings. I can get a much larger sample size if you want, but you're completely mistaken on how flurry works. As far as I can tell it's just flurry fired = 2-4 more attacks.[ bad math deleted ]I've stopped at a flurried attack attacking again after 4 times because the probability that they will when under 25% flurry is too tiny to take into account and also that the extra attacks it adds are very small. As you can see 8% Flurry is only slightly less than 9% Double attack, can we please have the flurry increased to at least 8% since they are then equal.[ made up description of how flurry works deleted ]Xelgad - I've posted the above to show that 3% Flurry isn't equal to 9% Double attack, or even close. This isn't just whining or me saying it's not equal, these are the hard numbers and they show that 3% flurry isn't equal to 9% DA. Can this please be changed?Hard numbers require you to use actual data, not pure conjecture.</blockquote>

boomerponc

08-31-2010, 05:02 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>The guardian changes are a nice start. It looks like we have the Trak shield buff as our new end-line skill, recapture will finally work for heroic content, and our pointless cripple AA line is gone.I understand that we will not be getting the needed boost to our DPS to put us more in line with the other 5 fighter classes while trying to DPS. While I disagree and feel we should be able to bring DPS to the table when DPSing as the other tanks can I will be keeping in line with that mentality, and I think that there are a few additional changes that need to go live with this update.1. Increase the radius of the new Plant skill to be effective for when a mob gets away from you…we finally got a blue AOE taunt, but at a range of 5m it’s not very useful.2. Drop the cast time of Tower of Stone from 1 second to instant (or 0.25s) to be more in line with other save type skills.3. Rescue and Reinforcement used to be able to be chosen without having to take additional AA’s many of us would consider useless, however where they were placed in the new tree we are basically required to take Enhance Shout to get to them costing more AA than it did previously.4. Enhance Plant doesn’t fit in the line it is in, the line is a line to boost our defensive capabilities – best suggestion here is to make this a second Enhance Call of Shielding – unlike the boost placed in the “Got Your Back” line this one should add something special to the raid-wide buff like every other fighter has (brawlers get an accuracy bonus to the raid, zerkers get a reuse bonus to the raid, crusaders get a potency buff to the raid) I suggest having it be a raid wide damage reduction which would be in line with what that AA tree and the guardian are all about. Move the Enhance Plant skill to the new Aggression line. 4b. I suggest adding moving the plant skill to the 5 spot, moving rescue and reinforcement to the 3-4 spots and combining enhance shout and enhance provoke into enhance taunts which would increase both provoke and shout by 5%/rank.5. You touched Iron Will without making it a worthwhile buff outside of PVP. Adding a snare reduction is nice for when I am in Battlegrounds next, but the stamina portion of the buff is still not useful to a tank who can very easily hit the hard cap for stamina. Please either remove the hard cap for stamina as you did for our main stats at the beginning of the expansion, or revise the skill to offer health instead of stamina so that the buff is useful to all guardians.6. Last Man Standing has no minimum damage component and as such is used up VERY quickly. Please change this from seven procs to a duration buff (maybe lasts 7-10s instead of its current state).Many suggestions have been made by the guardian community in the past month since these changes were announced, please continue to take feedback to improve the class in ways you are willing to do so.</blockquote>1) The 5 meter range is in line with some other blue AE taunts such as the Bruiser advancement "Wild Beating." We can add a radius increaser to the advancement to help a bit.2) I think that might make the ability too versatile considering its relatively short recast. Currently it's a very strong ability, especially when used proactively. Since most AEs and hard hitting spells have a two second casting time, you can probably cast it as you see it's incoming.3, 4, and 4b) I like these ideas overall. Currently, the plan is to combine the taunt advancements as you suggested, move Rescue up to where Shout in on test currently, and move Enhance: Plant (with 20% radius increase per point added) to where Enhance: Rescue is currently on test. Enhance: Reinforcement would stay in the same spot as it is on test. Raidwide damage reduction would be too powerful in the slot where Enhance: Plant currently is located so right now it is Enhance: Armored and increases block chance when in defensive stance. Other suggestions for this slot would be welcomed.5) Well, there are some raid mobs with snares as well. I was specifically thinking about the fishman in Perah'Celsis and his hard mode with this change.6) The code issue was due to our use of damage reduction instead of a normal stoneskin, but we should be able to change it to a stoneskin ability so that it functions similar Tower of Stone but with more triggers and no casting time.You should be seeing these adjustments on test soon.</blockquote>1) You are incorrect. Wild beating does damage and has 2 threat position increases, Plant is a taunt lock and does no damage. Plant should do med/high damage as well as the taunt.2) Don't have much to say about that, Tower of Stone is good.3, 4, 4b) Guardians don't need better taunts, those are already semi-useless at best, what they need is more dps. Increase the damage of their CAs across the board, and making the guardians (Recapture, and it really doesn't have a purpose at all, at the moment) unique 80 spell an encounter taunt lock with high damage. Also, 3% flurry for an endline is a joke...This should be a minimum of 10%, as even at that level it wouldn't be overpowering.5. I'm sorry, but basing a buff change for this class as a whole, off one encounter is a very bad Idea. Making this a %-based chance to resist control effects would be worthwhile and, again, not entirely overpowered if done right.6. Last man standing seems pretty good when it gets fixed.

Aule

08-31-2010, 05:10 PM

Here's some more data for Soul_Dreamer 8% flurry, 6.0s two-hander 630 swings 56 flurries 8.88% actual flurry rate (6 more than anticipated) 167 extra swings from flurry, or 2.98 per flurry.

Gungo

08-31-2010, 05:28 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ouch, I read that ability wrong...10% from one group member is quite a poor transfer and a poor end line ability. This should be bumped up to what a standard scout transfer is, about half of what pally's get for a transfer</blockquote>It should just be made into the trakanon shield effect.

boomerponc

08-31-2010, 05:29 PM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's some more data for Soul_Dreamer 8% flurry, 6.0s two-hander 630 swings 56 flurries 8.88% actual flurry rate (6 more than anticipated) 167 extra swings from flurry, or 2.98 per flurry.</blockquote>If he tested it for 10,000 hits, it would probably be right in the 3-4% ballpark.

Soul_Dreamer

08-31-2010, 06:54 PM

<cite>Jarey@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's some more data for Soul_Dreamer 8% flurry, 6.0s two-hander 630 swings 56 flurries 8.88% actual flurry rate (6 more than anticipated) 167 extra swings from flurry, or 2.98 per flurry.</blockquote>If he tested it for 10,000 hits, it would probably be right in the 3-4% ballpark.</blockquote>Sorry I'm confused if you're now agreeing or posting the data as an argument, you had 8% flurry and got 8.88% of attacks as flurries, isn't that pretty close to the below?At 8% Flurry100 x 0.08 = 88 x 0.08 = 0.640.64 x 0.08 = 0.05120.0512 x 0.08 = 0.0040968.695296 extra attacksFYI about the 9% DA not being worth much, I try and keep it at about 100% and swap items around so I'm just over 100% crit, at or on 100% DA and the rest I stuff into CB gear, the 9% DA aa helped me do this since the Potency/CB gear doesn't have much Crit or DA on it in a lot of cases.

Gungo

08-31-2010, 07:03 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jarey@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's some more data for Soul_Dreamer 8% flurry, 6.0s two-hander 630 swings 56 flurries 8.88% actual flurry rate (6 more than anticipated) 167 extra swings from flurry, or 2.98 per flurry.</blockquote>If he tested it for 10,000 hits, it would probably be right in the 3-4% ballpark.</blockquote>Sorry I'm confused if you're now agreeing or posting the data as an argument, you had 8% flurry and got 8.88% of attacks as flurries, isn't that pretty close to the below?At 8% Flurry100 x 0.08 = 88 x 0.08 = 0.640.64 x 0.08 = 0.05120.0512 x 0.08 = 0.0040968.695296 extra attacksFYI about the 9% DA not being worth much, I try and keep it at about 100% and swap items around so I'm just over 100% crit, at or on 100% DA and the rest I stuff into CB gear, the 9% DA aa helped me do this since the Potency/CB gear doesn't have much Crit or DA on it in a lot of cases.</blockquote>Ya flurry does have an ~8-9% proc rateBUT EACH flurry was about 2.98 extra atks.I am not entirely sure how flurry works, but I know flurry does have multiple hits ranging from 2-4. NEVER less then 2. The OP was trying to claim flurries are just 1 hit with another 8% chance to flurry which is wrong.

Soul_Dreamer

08-31-2010, 07:17 PM

If the initial hit that causes the flurry is classed as a flurry as well then it will never be less than 2. Confirmation of how it works would be nice though, from what I've tested and the fact the numbers I come out with are very similar to numbers in game I've assumed that my assumption of how it works is correct.Off back to test anyway.

Undorett

08-31-2010, 07:26 PM

What I an gather from what Soul_Dreamer is talking about is the chance that a flurry can proc another flurry. The way I have always thought of it was like it was a proc, and as you add more flurry your chance to proc is higher. The proc damage value is equal to 2-4 auto attacks (average of 3) which remains constant no matter how much flurry you add. Double attack is equal to + 1 hit. So 9% DA is equal to +9 hits per 100 hits, 3% flurry is equal to +6 to 12 hits (average of 9) per 100 hits.

Soul_Dreamer

08-31-2010, 07:31 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I an gather from what Soul_Dreamer is talking about is the chance that a flurry can proc another flurry. The way I have always thought of it was like it was a proc, and as you add more flurry your chance to proc is higher. The proc damage value is equal to 2-4 auto attacks (average of 3) which remains constant no matter how much flurry you add. Double attack is equal to + 1 hit. So 9% DA is equal to +9 hits per 100 hits, 3% flurry is equal to +6 to 12 hits (average of 9) per 100 hits.</blockquote>It was an assumption of how it worked from testing is all because the number added up with what I had seen in game, it could easily be incorrect since that base assumption effects everything after it.I'm busy kicking the [Removed for Content] out of a Epic dummy with 5% flurry (Adorn and 3% Guardian), when it's done I'll post back again. flurry overrides DA from what I've seen as well, if an attack flurries it cannot also DA. *EDIT*610 hits574 DA Proc ( 574 extra attacks) - 94.1 proc rate (100% displayed) - 44% of DPS.36 Flurry Proc (118 extra attacks) - 5.9 proc rate (5% displayed) - 3.2 average - 9.8% DPS.It DOESN'T seem to work how I assumed it was, others are correct, you seem to get a chance to flurry, then if it's a lfurry it rolls from 2 to 4 to decide how many hits to give. The flurry does seem to override a DA though, my DWing test came out a little lower but that's not for here anyway <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />3% Flurry seems roughly equal to 9% DA. THAT SAID Guardians do need more DPS to balance with Crusaders and Zerkers so here could be a place to put a small increase, giving a Guardian 3% when everyone can get 2 from an adorn seems a little tight fisted.

aislynn00

08-31-2010, 09:42 PM

The Flurry endline should afford, at the very least, 6% Flurry, with 9% being what I would consider appropriate.

Mimnousa

09-01-2010, 03:47 AM

Ok Soul here is why your math for flurry appears incorret.When you flurry you have 33% chance to proc flurry 2, Now same flurry you have a 33 % chance to proc flurry 3, and 33% chance to proc flurry 4. (( this is how i have had explained to me I have heard that it may be a lil differnt so dont take this at 100% fact but seems to hold up as to what I have seen))So now out of your procs here how it should fall you should have a 33% chance to proc flurry 2 because you have a 66% chance to proc flurry 2 plus. So out of the inital hit you have 66% left over. So basically here is how it works out 33% of your hits will hit for the various ammount.So in math lets do 600 hits with a 5 percent flurry30 of those hits will flurry, 10 will be flurry 2, 10 will be flurry 3 and 10 wll be flurry 4. This will equal roughly 90 extra hits for 600 swings. (40+30+20=90). Now the flurry replacing DA if that holds true will make it only 60 ( 90 flury attacks minus the 30 DA's it replaced)) extra attacks so really. if My math is correct 5% flurry roughly equals %10DA. So a fair replacement for 9% DA is 4.5% flurry.Although with gear as is and how easy though AA it is to cap DA. Flurry even at 3% is a very nice bonus. I know some classes have more but dont look the gift horse in the mouth. You are getting a capable ability replaced with as of right now rare ability. but I also agree that bumping it from 3% to 4.5% is fair and not overpowering.

Mimnousa

09-01-2010, 04:22 AM

And also I am going to check and make sure that Flurry replaces DA in an attack I have now seen instances in this thread where its claimed to and also where its not. This may be a mechanic issue with the AA where the coding may be wrong for the AA. I am at work I cant go on and test right at the moment.

FimisOrbe

09-01-2010, 06:25 AM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>The guardian changes are a nice start. It looks like we have the Trak shield buff as our new end-line skill, recapture will finally work for heroic content, and our pointless cripple AA line is gone. I understand that we will not be getting the needed boost to our DPS to put us more in line with the other 5 fighter classes while trying to DPS. While I disagree and feel we should be able to bring DPS to the table when DPSing as the other tanks can I will be keeping in line with that mentality, and I think that there are a few additional changes that need to go live with this update. 1. Increase the radius of the new Plant skill to be effective for when a mob gets away from you…we finally got a blue AOE taunt, but at a range of 5m it’s not very useful. 2. Drop the cast time of Tower of Stone from 1 second to instant (or 0.25s) to be more in line with other save type skills. 3. Rescue and Reinforcement used to be able to be chosen without having to take additional AA’s many of us would consider useless, however where they were placed in the new tree we are basically required to take Enhance Shout to get to them costing more AA than it did previously. 4. Enhance Plant doesn’t fit in the line it is in, the line is a line to boost our defensive capabilities – best suggestion here is to make this a second Enhance Call of Shielding – unlike the boost placed in the “Got Your Back” line this one should add something special to the raid-wide buff like every other fighter has (brawlers get an accuracy bonus to the raid, zerkers get a reuse bonus to the raid, crusaders get a potency buff to the raid) I suggest having it be a raid wide damage reduction which would be in line with what that AA tree and the guardian are all about. Move the Enhance Plant skill to the new Aggression line. 4b. I suggest adding moving the plant skill to the 5 spot, moving rescue and reinforcement to the 3-4 spots and combining enhance shout and enhance provoke into enhance taunts which would increase both provoke and shout by 5%/rank. 5. You touched Iron Will without making it a worthwhile buff outside of PVP. Adding a snare reduction is nice for when I am in Battlegrounds next, but the stamina portion of the buff is still not useful to a tank who can very easily hit the hard cap for stamina. Please either remove the hard cap for stamina as you did for our main stats at the beginning of the expansion, or revise the skill to offer health instead of stamina so that the buff is useful to all guardians.6. Last Man Standing has no minimum damage component and as such is used up VERY quickly. Please change this from seven procs to a duration buff (maybe lasts 7-10s instead of its current state). Many suggestions have been made by the guardian community in the past month since these changes were announced, please continue to take feedback to improve the class in ways you are willing to do so.</blockquote>1) The 5 meter range is in line with some other blue AE taunts such as the Bruiser advancement "Wild Beating." We can add a radius increaser to the advancement to help a bit.2) I think that might make the ability too versatile considering its relatively short recast. Currently it's a very strong ability, especially when used proactively. Since most AEs and hard hitting spells have a two second casting time, you can probably cast it as you see it's incoming.3, 4, and 4b) I like these ideas overall. Currently, the plan is to combine the taunt advancements as you suggested, move Rescue up to where Shout in on test currently, and move Enhance: Plant (with 20% radius increase per point added) to where Enhance: Rescue is currently on test. Enhance: Reinforcement would stay in the same spot as it is on test. Raidwide damage reduction would be too powerful in the slot where Enhance: Plant currently is located so right now it is Enhance: Armored and increases block chance when in defensive stance. Other suggestions for this slot would be welcomed.5) Well, there are some raid mobs with snares as well. I was specifically thinking about the fishman in Perah'Celsis and his hard mode with this change.6) The code issue was due to our use of damage reduction instead of a normal stoneskin, but we should be able to change it to a stoneskin ability so that it functions similar Tower of Stone but with more triggers and no casting time.You should be seeing these adjustments on test soon.</blockquote>3. Since you *fixed* Mitigation Increase, you could add like 1,5%/point Mit Increase to Enhanced Armored. I know that we already have an SF AA that does increase it on defense, but with the Change to Mit Increase, it could be better to gain some more Mitigation again.The current Enhance: Armored would be anyway bugged, since it does add the +Block to the Offense Stance as well.Also please do change Iron Will from a Stamina to a pure HP buff. Convert the Stamina in a 1:3 ratio (~300HP as Master on lvl 90), so you gain all the time something and not only if you aren't capt on Stamina.

Soul_Dreamer

09-01-2010, 06:42 AM

We have enough HP buffs, a small regenning ward would be better, 300 hp or so."Since you *fixed* Mitigation Increase" <-- where has this come from, I've not seen anything to do with mit changes. Buffed in offensive stance I'm over 15k Mit, in Defensive and rotating temp mit buffs I can easily stay over 19k, unless the mit curve is changed we really don't need more mitigation <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

FimisOrbe

09-01-2010, 06:46 AM

<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=486087" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=486087</a>

Soul_Dreamer

09-01-2010, 06:56 AM

Ahh, but there has been no change to mitigation, they just fixed a broken mechanic on test. Why do you need more mitigation?

Landiin

09-01-2010, 12:07 PM

When we put on shield we need either a large boost in TPS or DPS. I prefer DPS but it seems like you are hell bent on not giving us any, so I'll take the TPS as a consolation prise.

Undorett

09-01-2010, 12:34 PM

1% block per point spent in Enhance Armored is far too limiting as a skill, if you insist on it being attached to our defensive stance bump it to at least 2% per point spent...we try to spend as little time in defensive stance as possible to make up for our horrible DPS.

Yimway

09-01-2010, 12:45 PM

Attaching bonuses to defensive stance makes me ill since we can't pragmatically use the stance due to hitrates while in it.

Gungo

09-01-2010, 12:47 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Attaching bonuses to defensive stance makes me ill since we can't pragmatically use the stance due to hitrates while in it.</blockquote>Join the club, but honestly I think alot of guards are downplaying (or dont realize, the change since SF release) the effect + melee skills has on hit rates.

Undorett

09-01-2010, 12:49 PM

I wish the SF Wisdom end line would add the 4% mit to the defensive stance and 4% accuracy to both stances with 8 points spent. It would at least help slightly while in defensive stance.

Landiin

09-01-2010, 12:49 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Attaching bonuses to defensive stance makes me ill since we can't pragmatically use the stance due to hitrates while in it.</blockquote>Join the club, but honestly I think alot of guards are downplaying (or dont realize, the change since SF release) the effect + melee skills has on hit rates.</blockquote>I think you should roll a guard and see just how we are downplaying it...

Kain-UK

09-01-2010, 12:52 PM

If we end up spending a lot of time in defensive stance, then AA boosting hte skill to give more s/c/p suddely becomes useful......I see what you did there SOE! *eye*

Gungo

09-01-2010, 12:57 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Attaching bonuses to defensive stance makes me ill since we can't pragmatically use the stance due to hitrates while in it.</blockquote>Join the club, but honestly I think alot of guards are downplaying (or dont realize, the change since SF release) the effect + melee skills has on hit rates.</blockquote>I think you should roll a guard and see just how we are downplaying it...</blockquote>Look its not my fault you have no idea how good +melee skills have become this expansion. The only REASON hit rates are lower in defensive stance IS the lower Melee skills. there is NO OTHER reason why hit rates go down. It is not like going into defensive stance lowers accuracy. L2P before you make assinine comments.And I have played guards before and main tanked raids on them so you need to try another line.

Undorett

09-01-2010, 01:00 PM

Gungo

09-01-2010, 01:07 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Look its not my fault you have no idea how good +melee skills have become this expansion. The only REASON hit rates are lower in defensive stance IS the lower Melee skills. there is NO OTHER reason why hit rates go down. It is not like going into defensive stance lowers accuracy. L2P before you make assinine comments.</blockquote>It does for me =/ Also, I do know how good +skills are and have an absurd amount of them</blockquote>Yeah I am sure most competent players know the value of + melee skills. Something changed this expac that allows higher then normal (or overcapping) melee skills to help hit rates. You will not acheive 100% hit rates with melee skills alone but you can get extremely close to 100% and with additional accuracy acheive 100% on MOST npcs.

Yimway

09-01-2010, 01:20 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Look its not my fault you have no idea how good +melee skills have become this expansion. The only REASON hit rates are lower in defensive stance IS the lower Melee skills. there is NO OTHER reason why hit rates go down. It is not like going into defensive stance lowers accuracy. L2P before you make assinine comments.And I have played guards before and main tanked raids on them so you need to try another line.</blockquote>Thats odd. Cause as I recall STR played into your overall attack rating that affected hit rates. Did this change at some time? Cause historically I knew it to be true.s/c/p factor as well, but over ~600 skill it seems to have no pay off.

Gungo

09-01-2010, 01:30 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Look its not my fault you have no idea how good +melee skills have become this expansion. The only REASON hit rates are lower in defensive stance IS the lower Melee skills. there is NO OTHER reason why hit rates go down. It is not like going into defensive stance lowers accuracy. L2P before you make assinine comments.And I have played guards before and main tanked raids on them so you need to try another line.</blockquote>Thats odd. Cause as I recall STR played into your overall attack rating that affected hit rates. Did this change at some time? Cause historically I knew it to be true.s/c/p factor as well, but over ~600 skill it seems to have no pay off.</blockquote>Str has NEVER had any effect on hit rates. Str only increases the damage you do and weight you can carry. Historically it was never true.There were tests on level 90 epic training dummy the cap on those was ~650 melee skills. No other definitve tests can show us if more is needed (especially on a lvl 98 epic x4), but 650 melee skill is still hard to get in most cases for a fighter. The point of those tests if you look 50 melee skill = ~10% hit rate up to a cap of ~650melee skill. So melee skills are HUGE for hit rates. Epic Training Dummy, no accuracy-----------------------------------450 skill -> 48% hits (612/1275)500 skill -> 58% hits (294/504)600 skill -> 78% hits (1270/1621)650 skill -> 87% hits (1407/1613)704 skill -> 88% hits (2683/3053)Epic Training Dummy, 5% accuracy----------------------------------704 skill -> 92% hits (1487/1624)

Soul_Dreamer

09-01-2010, 01:36 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Look its not my fault you have no idea how good +melee skills have become this expansion. The only REASON hit rates are lower in defensive stance IS the lower Melee skills. there is NO OTHER reason why hit rates go down. It is not like going into defensive stance lowers accuracy. L2P before you make assinine comments.And I have played guards before and main tanked raids on them so you need to try another line.</blockquote>Thats odd. Cause as I recall STR played into your overall attack rating that affected hit rates. Did this change at some time? Cause historically I knew it to be true.s/c/p factor as well, but over ~600 skill it seems to have no pay off.</blockquote>Str has NEVER had any effect on hit rates. Str only increases the damage you do and weight you can carry. Historically it was never true.There were tests on level 90 epic training dummy the cap on those was ~650 melee skills. No other definitve tests can show us if more is needed (especially on a lvl 98 epic x4), but 650 melee skill is still extremely hard to get in most cases for a fighter. The point of those tests if you look 50 melee skill = ~5% hit rate up to a cap of ~650melee skill. So melee skills are HUGE for hit rates. Epic Training Dummy, no accuracy-----------------------------------450 skill -> 48% hits (612/1275)500 skill -> 58% hits (294/504)600 skill -> 78% hits (1270/1621)650 skill -> 87% hits (1407/1613)704 skill -> 88% hits (2683/3053)Epic Training Dummy, 5% accuracy----------------------------------704 skill -> 92% hits (1487/1624)</blockquote>I may look into this more on tonights raid, I have 3 adorns and the 5% accuracy buff so I'm at about 660 solo in off stance, can't remember the last time I checked in a raid setting.

Gungo

09-01-2010, 01:40 PM

I posted the numbers wrong it is"The point of those tests if you look 50 melee skill = ~10% hit rate up to a cap of ~650melee skill."I dont know about what other fighters do but if 50 melee skill = 10% hit rates up to 650 melee skill. That is one of the most important and easiest stats to max out.

Aule

09-01-2010, 01:41 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I an gather from what Soul_Dreamer is talking about is the chance that a flurry can proc another flurry. The way I have always thought of it was like it was a proc, and as you add more flurry your chance to proc is higher. The proc damage value is equal to 2-4 auto attacks (average of 3) which remains constant no matter how much flurry you add. Double attack is equal to + 1 hit. So 9% DA is equal to +9 hits per 100 hits, 3% flurry is equal to +6 to 12 hits (average of 9) per 100 hits.</blockquote>It was an assumption of how it worked from testing is all because the number added up with what I had seen in game, it could easily be incorrect since that base assumption effects everything after it.I'm busy kicking the [Removed for Content] out of a Epic dummy with 5% flurry (Adorn and 3% Guardian), when it's done I'll post back again. flurry overrides DA from what I've seen as well, if an attack flurries it cannot also DA. *EDIT*610 hits574 DA Proc ( 574 extra attacks) - 94.1 proc rate (100% displayed) - 44% of DPS.36 Flurry Proc (118 extra attacks) - 5.9 proc rate (5% displayed) - 3.2 average - 9.8% DPS.It DOESN'T seem to work how I assumed it was, others are correct, you seem to get a chance to flurry, then if it's a lfurry it rolls from 2 to 4 to decide how many hits to give. The flurry does seem to override a DA though, my DWing test came out a little lower but that's not for here anyway <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />3% Flurry seems roughly equal to 9% DA. THAT SAID Guardians do need more DPS to balance with Crusaders and Zerkers so here could be a place to put a small increase, giving a Guardian 3% when everyone can get 2 from an adorn seems a little tight fisted.</blockquote>Notice how 610 = 574 + 36? Do you think that maybe, just maybe, your flurries happen to count as hits?Primary hitsAll proc's attempt to fireFlurry checkPrimary double attack checkSecondary hitsSecondary double attack checkAfter dual wield changes are applied we'll have a Secondary flurry check added.(1283358461)[Wed Sep 01 09:27:41 2010] YOU critically hit training dummy for 8752 crushing damage.(1283358461)[Wed Sep 01 09:27:41 2010] YOUR Mantis Bolt critically hits training dummy for 1609 piercing damage.(1283358461)[Wed Sep 01 09:27:41 2010] You begin to swing as if possessed!(1283358461)[Wed Sep 01 09:27:41 2010] You begin to swing as if possessed!(1283358461)[Wed Sep 01 09:27:41 2010] YOU try to disease training dummy with Pestilential Rain, but training dummy resists.(1283358461)[Wed Sep 01 09:27:41 2010] YOUR Crane Twirl critically hits training dummy for 2476 crushing damage.(1283358461)[Wed Sep 01 09:27:41 2010] YOU try to crush training dummy, but YOUR flurry misses.(1283358461)[Wed Sep 01 09:27:41 2010] YOU critically flurry training dummy for 4283 crushing damage.(1283358461)[Wed Sep 01 09:27:41 2010] YOU critically flurry training dummy for 4283 crushing damage.(1283358461)[Wed Sep 01 09:27:41 2010] YOU critically flurry training dummy for 4776 crushing damage.(1283358461)[Wed Sep 01 09:27:41 2010] YOU critically double attack training dummy for 6451 crushing damage.<div>There's a hit, 5 proc's, 4 flurries and then double attack. Testing done with a two-hander so that logs aren't muddied up by secondary weapon.</div>

Yimway

09-01-2010, 01:47 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats odd. Cause as I recall STR played into your overall attack rating that affected hit rates. Did this change at some time? Cause historically I knew it to be true.s/c/p factor as well, but over ~600 skill it seems to have no pay off.</blockquote>Str has NEVER had any effect on hit rates. Str only increases the damage you do and weight you can carry. Historically it was never true.</blockquote>Bleh, now I'm going to have to dig to see if I can find that data, but was back in DoF days and I can't recall if I was looking at AA swings, CA's or both.Looking at your chart, I'm honestly confused how s/c/p and accuracy work together.If s/c/p cap ~650 as you say (testing against mobs I didn't see benefit after 600-620 btw), would it then cap at 600 if you have 10% accuracy? In that stacking more accuracy does or does not affect the point s/c/p fall off for hit rates?

Gungo

09-01-2010, 01:49 PM

I think its pretty clear now that 1 flurry = 3 DA in terms of dps and average number of hits.

Gungo

09-01-2010, 01:56 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats odd. Cause as I recall STR played into your overall attack rating that affected hit rates. Did this change at some time? Cause historically I knew it to be true.s/c/p factor as well, but over ~600 skill it seems to have no pay off.</blockquote>Str has NEVER had any effect on hit rates. Str only increases the damage you do and weight you can carry. Historically it was never true.</blockquote>Bleh, now I'm going to have to dig to see if I can find that data, but was back in DoF days and I can't recall if I was looking at AA swings, CA's or both.Looking at your chart, I'm honestly confused how s/c/p and accuracy work together.If s/c/p cap ~650 as you say (testing against mobs I didn't see benefit after 600-620 btw), would it then cap at 600 if you have 10% accuracy? In that stacking more accuracy does or does not affect the point s/c/p fall off for hit rates?</blockquote>650 was vs epic training dummy. Vs the solo and heroic training dummy the parses showed a cap of 600. No clue why that is.Solo Training Dummy, no accuracy---------------------------------450 skill -> 75% hits (1208/1620)500 skill -> 83% hits (1385/1671)550 skill -> 96% hits (1552/1617)600 skill -> 97% hits (1169/1204)650 skill -> 97% hits (1124/1164)704 skill -> 97% hits (696/720)Solo Training Dummy, 5% accuracy----------------------------------600 skill -> 100% hits (1074/1074)Heroic Training Dummy, no accuracy-----------------------------------450 skill -> 64% hits (1242/1953)500 skill -> 73% hits (1188/1636)550 skill -> 84% hits (1611/1920)600 skill -> 93% hits (1611/1730)650 skill -> 93% hits (1326/1430)704 skill -> 93% hits (1629/1760)Heroic Training Dummy, 5% accuracy----------------------------------704 skill -> 98% hits (1509/1544)If you look at accuracy in all 3 reports it seems to be a FLAT % added to hit rates until you cap at 100% (it is worth noting the person who did these tests only used 5% accuracy. Accuracy may have diminishing returns with higher %). Now you also have to remeber this is vs a training dummy, So it can only be used as the BASE. Real raid npcs have BUFF packages that may include higher defensive skills or deflection skill (ala Avatar of disease), 360 degree parry % (ala mayong) or other forms of uncontested avoidance %. Some of those may or may not be effected by + melee skill or accuracy %.Irregardless melee skills still show in these tests that 50 melee skill = ~10% hit rate no matter what type of training dummy. So the best option for all fighters is to try and maintain 650+ melee skill in raids.

Yimway

09-01-2010, 02:05 PM

I'm honestly curious if accuracy is just a % modifier of s/c/p600 s/c/p with 10% accuracy is just 600 x 1.1 for an effective s/c/p of 660.Or is it a type of uncontested hit check...x = ran(100)if x <= accuracy result is a hit, else contest s/c/pand, bah we're derailing, but I think it still has merit to the changes discussed in this thread.How it contests vs a mobs defensive abilities would be useful to know to make more informed decisions on s/c/p vs accuracy amounts.

Gungo

09-01-2010, 02:12 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm honestly curious if accuracy is just a % modifier of s/c/p600 s/c/p with 10% accuracy is just 600 x 1.1 for an effective s/c/p of 660.Or is it a type of uncontested hit check...x = ran(100)if x <= accuracy result is a hit, else contest s/c/pand, bah we're derailing, but I think it still has merit to the changes discussed in this thread.How it contests vs a mobs defensive abilities would be useful to know to make more informed decisions on s/c/p vs accuracy amounts.</blockquote>It is not just a % modifier of s/c/p or else we wouldnt see any improvement with accuracy when at the c/s/p cap. Clearly c/s/p caps at 600/650. Adding accuracy should not increase the hit rates if that was the case. But it does and almost exactly by the % it states.

Undorett

09-01-2010, 02:17 PM

Back on topic...Xelgad, will we be seeing any additional fixes in this guardian revamp?Plant (remove lock and add position), Enhance Armored (5% block added to a stance is weak), Mit abilities (underpowered), Flurry (wasn't a DPS boost), DPS (still much lower than other fighters, without much if any of an edge in survivability), raid buff (addition of health is nice, but defense is worthless for the raid, change it to mitigation would at least help with trauma AOEs), DPS boost with a shield, or the myriad of other feedback posted in both this thread and the one in the guardian forum? Nothing we share with the Berserker was changed, and many of these things happen to be problem areas and would allow for great places to add to the class such as the sta end line, belly smash, heck the whole wis tree, etc.

Aule

09-01-2010, 02:19 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Attaching bonuses to defensive stance makes me ill since we can't pragmatically use the stance due to hitrates while in it.</blockquote>You can pragmatically use it just fine. What do you think brawlers have been doing this whole expansion?450 weapon skill from level 90105 weapon skill from 5 adorns~90 weapon skill from dirge + templar10% accuracy from dirge 5 % accuracy from brawler raidwide645 weapon skill, 15% accuracySubtract out whatever hitroll penalty is in defensive stance (26 for guards?) and your at about 620.

Aule

09-01-2010, 02:27 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm honestly curious if accuracy is just a % modifier of s/c/p600 s/c/p with 10% accuracy is just 600 x 1.1 for an effective s/c/p of 660.Or is it a type of uncontested hit check...x = ran(100)if x <= accuracy result is a hit, else contest s/c/pand, bah we're derailing, but I think it still has merit to the changes discussed in this thread.How it contests vs a mobs defensive abilities would be useful to know to make more informed decisions on s/c/p vs accuracy amounts.</blockquote>It is not just a % modifier of s/c/p or else we wouldnt see any improvement with accuracy when at the c/s/p cap. Clearly c/s/p caps at 600/650. Adding accuracy should not increase the hit rates if that was the case. But it does and almost exactly by the % it states.</blockquote>I believe all the testing showed that on Epic's a 650 weapon skill is 87% hit rate (maximum), the other 13% needs to be made up either through accuracy stat or overcap weapon skill granting accuracy at a rate of around each additional 10% times the cap giving 1 accuracy. So 705 = 1 accuracy, 775 = 2, 853 = 3, etc.

Gungo

09-01-2010, 02:34 PM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm honestly curious if accuracy is just a % modifier of s/c/p600 s/c/p with 10% accuracy is just 600 x 1.1 for an effective s/c/p of 660.Or is it a type of uncontested hit check...x = ran(100)if x <= accuracy result is a hit, else contest s/c/pand, bah we're derailing, but I think it still has merit to the changes discussed in this thread.How it contests vs a mobs defensive abilities would be useful to know to make more informed decisions on s/c/p vs accuracy amounts.</blockquote>It is not just a % modifier of s/c/p or else we wouldnt see any improvement with accuracy when at the c/s/p cap. Clearly c/s/p caps at 600/650. Adding accuracy should not increase the hit rates if that was the case. But it does and almost exactly by the % it states.</blockquote>I believe all the testing showed that on Epic's a 650 weapon skill is 87% hit rate (maximum), the other 13% needs to be made up either through accuracy stat or overcap weapon skill granting accuracy at a rate of around each additional 10% times the cap giving 1 accuracy. So 705 = 1 accuracy, 775 = 2, 853 = 3, etc.</blockquote>There would need to be more testing to see if overcapping like that actual works if it does though at that rate its pretty pointless to change gear for it.Ok done derailing, but at least we all learned something.

Landiin

09-01-2010, 02:44 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Attaching bonuses to defensive stance makes me ill since we can't pragmatically use the stance due to hitrates while in it.</blockquote>Join the club, but honestly I think alot of guards are downplaying (or dont realize, the change since SF release) the effect + melee skills has on hit rates.</blockquote>I think you should roll a guard and see just how we are downplaying it...</blockquote>Look its not my fault you have no idea how good +melee skills have become this expansion. The only REASON hit rates are lower in defensive stance IS the lower Melee skills. there is NO OTHER reason why hit rates go down. It is not like going into defensive stance lowers accuracy. L2P before you make assinine comments.And I have played guards before and main tanked raids on them so you need to try another line.</blockquote>Yea I don' tknow guess that is why I have adorns with + melee skills... L2P is such an oh crap I don't know what to sat now cop out.

Gungo

09-01-2010, 02:47 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yea I don' tknow guess that is why I have adorns with + melee skills... L2P is such an oh crap I don't know what to sat now cop out.</blockquote>Its simply if you post like you don't know [Removed for Content] your talking about. People are naturally going to assume you're a bit clueless.

Landiin

09-01-2010, 02:52 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yea I don' tknow guess that is why I have adorns with + melee skills... L2P is such an oh crap I don't know what to sat now cop out.</blockquote>Its simply if you post like you don't know [Removed for Content] your talking about. People are naturally going to assume you're a bit clueless.</blockquote>Where did I ever post I didn't use + melee? I simply said we was not downplaying the effects of D stance. I guess 99% of every guard saying this is wrong and you are right? I guess some people are so caught up in there "I'm right" mode they can't read what is actually said.*removed what could be interpreted as name calling, that would be just as dumb as saying L2P*

bishoph

09-01-2010, 02:54 PM

The new plant is not are good as it needs to be. I agree with many, remove the target lock. Add +1 hate potion, and hate over time to it. It will still not be as powerfull as some other fighter AE grab abilitys with this done.Remove the attack speed decrease from Hunker down, would be fine with one of the AA's doing this at its 5th point. Or change the buff, the pin, only place it has a use is heroic grouping. The 1559 mit at master level (no TSO AA's), is not a buff at all. Needs to be a lot more Mit, or damage reduction.Last Man Standing, still needs a bit more bite to it. With its 4+ minute recast, should have a greater effect to it. Maybe change it to reflect phy's damage with 10 charges?Shoulder the Burden, still needs a lot of loving. Things to go along with the Aggression theme. Raises Hate gain cap by 25%. Adds Crit Bonus and Potency by 20%. Add's a hate over time component to our Tuants (Provoke, Shout, Taunting Blow, Taunting Assault, and Plant). Got Your Back, is still pointless for the most part. Yes might be nice on a few select encounters. Should effect the group, since the fighter who needs it the most, will be the direct target of the AE. Only real bright side to this AA is, the fact only two AA's worth taking in the tree.Flurry, needs to be more than 3%. Seeing about 10% less DPS than with the DA. I am not DA capped, since I am not fully in raid gear. Enchanced: Armored, needs to be a bigger gain.Been testing out different AA builds. Really I am seeing very little Defensive gains, while a loss of DPS and TPS. Like I said I am not fully raid geared out. In the gear I have one test, only two fabled raid pieces, with two more from instances. I am not sure about others, but the loss of the Decimate AA's, is hurting me. That allows for a nice chunk of free threat on a Boss fight right at the begining. This allowed for an easier time for solo Mob encounters, while in a group. Can we get a cast reduction on the Hatefull Assault AA in the Shadows tree?Getting Seasoned Veteran in the wis line dose help out DPS by a little bit. Though for the most part, Belly smash is wasted AA's. Last thing for now..... Please fix the Research Assistant on test.

Soul_Dreamer

09-01-2010, 03:08 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think its pretty clear now that 1 flurry = 3 DA in terms of dps and average number of hits.</blockquote>Yes but it's also pretty clear that guardians have the least DPS of any fighter so increasing it slightly will help, we where all under the impression these changes where to make Guardians more desirable so why switch an ability that is basically equal to what it used to be?

vinere

09-01-2010, 03:30 PM

Well they "fixed" +mitigation blue stat on armor, so guards might again see thre advantage in mitigation show up. I am sure at the high end it still wont matter much tho.

Undorett

09-01-2010, 04:09 PM

If they are going to add something to our defensive stance in the slot where Plant used to be, I would prefer it to be some sort of magical damage reduction (magical damage reduction, regenerating ward vs magical damage, etc) as guardians have nothing in this area as opposed to 5% SE. If that is too powerful, then boost the 5% SE, because that is too weak.As has been said before by others and myself, the 2% hate mod per point is still 100% pointless with the current hate cap being 50%. The 10% transfer from one player is too low, if you make it 20% transfer from one player it allows for a greater variance in standard raid and group setups.The new plant being a target lock is not as great as a positional, target locks rarely work on mobs you really need them to work on.

Xelgad

09-01-2010, 06:25 PM

<div><div><ul><li>The 5% block chance was honestly more of a placeholder so that we could get the other changes to test yesterday. We couldn't just leave the advancement blank. We'll see if we can come up with something better. If not, we'll balance the block chance amount.</li></ul><ul><li>With off-hand weapons now able to flurry, 3% flurry will give the same zonewide DPS increase as the old 9% double attack, except it won't run into capping problems. We didn't intend to give a significant DPS boost with this change.</li></ul><ul><li>Regarding the aggression line: it is aimed more at heroic content and small groups than raids. The hate mod is there as an option, but you don't have to take it in order to progress down the tree or in order to take the endline. We can re-evaluate Shoulder the Burden to see if we can make it more effective while staying in balance, but I'm not promising anything there. </li></ul><ul><li>We understand that a threat position increase would be more powerful on raids than the target lock for Plant, but the ability is intended to be more potent in heroic content than tough raid content. </li></ul><ul><li>I agree with many of you that Sentry Watch could use some work. Unfortunately, it's a heavily scripted abilty that isn't easy to change without completely redesigning it. It's something we'd like to address either with a second round of changes (if that ends up being necessary) or with the upcoming expansion, but it would be tough to fit into this update without delaying it.</li></ul></div></div>

Yimway

09-01-2010, 06:37 PM

Xalmat

09-01-2010, 06:51 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>With all the other proposed changes, I can see how the class is returning to be relevant. I do expect the amount of nerd-rage from other fighters to be rather 'epic' though.</blockquote>Meh. Speaking as a Berserker I'm glad Guardians are finally getting some loving after all these years.That said I don't really see anything making Berserkers any less desired in heroic content. Raid content? Maybe, but Berserkers will continue to be excellent main tanks regardless.

Aule

09-01-2010, 06:53 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think its pretty clear now that 1 flurry = 3 DA in terms of dps and average number of hits.</blockquote>Yes but it's also pretty clear that guardians have the least DPS of any fighter so increasing it slightly will help, we where all under the impression these changes where to make Guardians more desirable so why switch an ability that is basically equal to what it used to be?</blockquote>If you can't cap DA without 9% from an AA line then you not actually serious about your double attack. There's plenty of legendary / mark purchased / battleground gear available that you can carry around multiple pieces of jewelry to mix and match your gearset with based on what showed up to your heroic group.Plain and simple, they're replacing a stat that is easily capped by everybody except for those who aren't trying with a stat that is completely impossible to cap with the current gear and buff selection, and you're complaining?

Undorett

09-01-2010, 07:08 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><ul><li>The 5% block chance was honestly more of a placeholder so that we could get the other changes to test yesterday. We couldn't just leave the advancement blank. We'll see if we can come up with something better. If not, we'll balance the block chance amount. Thanks for the clarification</li></ul><ul><li>With off-hand weapons now able to flurry, 3% flurry will give the same zonewide DPS increase as the old 9% double attack, except it won't run into capping problems. We didn't intend to give a significant DPS boost with this change. I understand what you are saying, but even in offensive stance while dual wielding a guardian doesn't even come close to the DPS of any of the other fighters while they are in their most DPS-like mode, and we feel this DPS advantage when you are just burning through easy stuff is no where near the very minor advantage we have defensively (if we even have one)</li></ul><ul><li>Regarding the aggression line: it is aimed more at heroic content and small groups than raids. The hate mod is there as an option, but you don't have to take it in order to progress down the tree or in order to take the endline. We can re-evaluate Shoulder the Burden to see if we can make it more effective while staying in balance, but I'm not promising anything there. First point: Even in heroic content with NO dirge or coercer we can get +15% hate via adorns, +5% hate from improved moderation, +10% hate from the warrior strength line...and now +10% more hate from the new guardian AA? This doesn't even count the + percent hate we can get from gear and procs. A guardian can self cap on hate mod, it seems pointless and I hate to see a wasted change while you are changing things for the better. Guardians, even heroic only ones, will not take this AA.Second point: Thanks for continuing to look into Shoulder the Burden - I really don't think something equivalent to what scouts can already transfer is going to be overpowered.</li></ul><ul><li>We understand that a threat position increase would be more powerful on raids than the target lock for Plant, but the ability is intended to be more potent in heroic content than tough raid content. When making skills do you specifically say this is going to be used as a heroic skill and this as an epic skill? A + hate position skill would be useful in heroic and epic content, and we are still the only fighter without one - please at the very least make Reinforcement proc when using it. Either way, at 5 meters its a pretty useless ability without dumping 5pts into the range increase...I feel sorry for anyone trying to use it without this AA and expecting it to do anything.</li></ul><ul><li>I agree with many of you that Sentry Watch could use some work. Unfortunately, it's a heavily scripted abilty that isn't easy to change without completely redesigning it. It's something we'd like to address either with a second round of changes (if that ends up being necessary) or with the upcoming expansion, but it would be tough to fit into this update without delaying it. Thanks for looking into addressing this issue.</li></ul></div></div></blockquote>There is still more that was posted in both this thread and the one in the guardian forums regarding changes people would like to see. I know you likely do not have time to address them all, but I hope that you have read through them and plan to touch on at least some of them. The ones I can remember offhand are listed below.DPS - pathetic compared to other tanks (VERY noticeable in AOE content)Threat generation w/shield equippedUnyielding Will - guaranteed to kill yourself until lv 81Iron WIll - stamina useless, Taunting Assault - cast speedWisdom Line - uselessStamina End line - uselessCall of Shielding - defensive stat uselessMythical - terrible compared to others

Soul_Dreamer

09-01-2010, 07:37 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><ul><li>The 5% block chance was honestly more of a placeholder so that we could get the other changes to test yesterday. We couldn't just leave the advancement blank. We'll see if we can come up with something better. If not, we'll balance the block chance amount.OK, can deal with that, thanks for letting us know.</li></ul><ul><li>With off-hand weapons now able to flurry, 3% flurry will give the same zonewide DPS increase as the old 9% double attack, except it won't run into capping problems. We didn't intend to give a significant DPS boost with this change.The problem is that without some form of DPS boost the other tanks have far too much of an advantage over us while we have very little survivability advantage. Even when Dual weilding and sacrificing all our survivability the other tanks are out DPSing us. Surely when we give up that much we should be closer to their DPS?</li></ul><ul><li>Regarding the aggression line: it is aimed more at heroic content and small groups than raids. The hate mod is there as an option, but you don't have to take it in order to progress down the tree or in order to take the endline. We can re-evaluate Shoulder the Burden to see if we can make it more effective while staying in balance, but I'm not promising anything there. This and the below are both tended towards heroic content, which are here to help the raiding Guardian because, would it not be more productive to put something in place that helped towards both rather than just one area of gameplay?</li></ul><ul><li>We understand that a threat position increase would be more powerful on raids than the target lock for Plant, but the ability is intended to be more potent in heroic content than tough raid content. As above, why only heroic content, a lot of raid mobs will ignore this, can we at least have it doing some Melee damage again so we can use it with Reinforcement as we have always been doing, I consider this change more of a nerf than a benefit to me as a raiding Guardian. Maybe have the Hate on a DoT tick for that amount every 2 seconds and an initial hit of damage on the cast?</li></ul><ul><li>I agree with many of you that Sentry Watch could use some work. Unfortunately, it's a heavily scripted abilty that isn't easy to change without completely redesigning it. It's something we'd like to address either with a second round of changes (if that ends up being necessary) or with the upcoming expansion, but it would be tough to fit into this update without delaying it.Reverse bloodletter? the code is already in place so a lot could be a simple copy/paste. Buff goes on all group members with a "If not fighter tag" and if someone dies they get a 50% heal at the expense of 10% health of the Guardian. A range increase would be needed so we at least included the Healers though, maybe 25m. The same Mechanics as Bloodletter, 3 min recast, out of combat castable only and always on.Just an idea anyway.</li></ul><div></div></div><div></div></div></blockquote> Thanks for the update Xel, while we seem ungrateful a lot of us are glad we're at least getting some attention.

WarmMachine

09-01-2010, 08:18 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><ul><li>The 5% block chance was honestly more of a placeholder so that we could get the other changes to test yesterday. We couldn't just leave the advancement blank. We'll see if we can come up with something better. If not, we'll balance the block chance amount.</li></ul><ul><li>With off-hand weapons now able to flurry, 3% flurry will give the same zonewide DPS increase as the old 9% double attack, except it won't run into capping problems. We didn't intend to give a significant DPS boost with this change.</li></ul><ul><li>Regarding the aggression line: it is aimed more at heroic content and small groups than raids. The hate mod is there as an option, but you don't have to take it in order to progress down the tree or in order to take the endline. We can re-evaluate Shoulder the Burden to see if we can make it more effective while staying in balance, but I'm not promising anything there. </li></ul><ul><li>We understand that a threat position increase would be more powerful on raids than the target lock for Plant, but the ability is intended to be more potent in heroic content than tough raid content. </li></ul><ul><li>I agree with many of you that Sentry Watch could use some work. Unfortunately, it's a heavily scripted abilty that isn't easy to change without completely redesigning it. It's something we'd like to address either with a second round of changes (if that ends up being necessary) or with the upcoming expansion, but it would be tough to fit into this update without delaying it.</li></ul></div></div></blockquote>Thanks for the update, it is nice to know you guys are still working on guards and have not moved on. Also it is nice to be in the loop. As for feed back, everything seems to be focused on improving guardians in heroic content, not a raid setting. The only area that guardians need help with in hate is unlinked multiple mob encounters. From AA we can already get 15 hate mode and -25 group hate, then a single target -36 hate. Right now in heroic content guards have no problems holding mobs against people in the same quality gear. A guard in master-crafted gear can hold agro better than an sk or berserker because of improved moderate.When all tanks are in defensive stance with defensive gear on we are all pretty close in the damage we take and the dps we do.When all tanks switch over to offensive stance and put on dps gear guardians fall behind in dps, and survivability. We fall behind in dps because we have the worst offensive stance of any tank. On survivability warriors fall behind because we duel wield where crusaders stay sword and board. Beserkers can use Adrenaline witch is very powerful and up every min. but Guardians can not use Tower of Stone with out a shield equipped. It would be nice if you guys looked at ToS and the spell it is balanced against with Adrenaline in the amount of damage they absorb, and the fact that ToS can not be used with duel wielding. And for the love of god don't "fix" it by nurfing another class, all it is doing is making your player base mad.To sum it up give us more DPS or Survivability I really don't care witch, but focus on those two areas not threat.

Aule

09-01-2010, 08:49 PM

"Iron Will" now reduces snare effects on the guardian as well as increases stamina. (36% at master at 90)Can we get snare mitigation added back to Sarnaks as a racial ability then? Seeing as it was removed due to being "overpowered".

Landiin

09-01-2010, 11:00 PM

I still say we need help when we are using a shield. That is basically the only time I have real agro issue. You could fill that armored AA spot with something to help with this or just toss it on our D stance. DPS, TPS what ever, I'ed prefer DPS but will settle for some good TPS. Maybe I am the only one with this issue and need to L2P better /shrug.

Gungo

09-02-2010, 01:30 AM

I dont know if you can call it good news butEVERY mit buff is now worth something on test, because they nerfed the heck out of mit % items and AA so no plate tank is near cap anymore.

Davngr1

09-02-2010, 02:27 AM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>you guys do realize that plant is a green ability right? meaing that unless it has been changed it's only an encounter root/debuff not a true open area effect.</blockquote>You do realize plant has been completely changed on test to a blue aoe taunt and encounter lock.</blockquote>hense.. </blockquote>Sorry let me clarify, You do realize plant was always a Blue ability in the first place.</blockquote> yea i just cheked must have gotten it mixed up with my brigs slow that has the same graphic. not like this ability was ever a high concern. but now it might be casted. please fix the myth spell. in it's current state it's a joke, how many other classes have their almost exact myth ability droping off blue raid mobs?

schizolic

09-02-2010, 06:16 AM

i understand you "think" the off hand flurry will equal out to the da while dual wielding, but it does nothing to compensate for the fact that we have to give up a large portion of our avoidance to take advantage of it, while other fighters here keep their shields up and still will do a lot more dps.

Kain-UK

09-02-2010, 10:25 AM

Yimway

09-02-2010, 11:31 AM

<cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, so I have a question with regards to the Aggression line in particular...Are you attempting to make Threat and Taunting a viable alternative to tanking through outright DPS? (which is what pretty much every other tank in the game does). I ask because I'm looking at my AA lines, and while I could shave some AA off the DPS line to fill out Aggression and eventually take "Shoulder the Burden", I'm a little concerned that doing so will not aleviate any of the problems I would have in Heroic content.Would just like a litte insight into what you guys are trying to accomplish with that change. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I really think that line is designed for heroic gameplay to allow a guard to be able to function in a group without hate buffers.At the raid level, much of what is in that line is already over cap without taking it, and the benefits are largely marginalized. I think this is why the raiding folks in these threads are harping so much on the dps differential, as it appears we will still struggle sustaining hate.

Brildean

09-02-2010, 12:40 PM

Xelgad.. Sword and Board agro generation. Can you make this a top priority heck even make the old plant aa into a weapon damage modifier of 15% while defensive. So sword and board we can dps and dw in defensive we can still dps more. this should balance the playing field a little bit with agro generation and dps of the tanks. Statistically flurry looks like a good balancing tool but from another standpoint 3% is like a chance at procing so i could swing 150 times and i could literally not get it to proc once. Maybe add a chance to proc also with the flurry aa of say 2000 damage 2000 threat.. 5% on physical damage recieved and 2.0 a minute from any attack. Think of bruisers aoe auto.Our mythical needs a look at also. We need some type of damage recieved = threat out type ability on it.. say 50% of damage recieved will be put out as 25% threat to target.

vinere

09-02-2010, 03:26 PM

He posted that with the offhand changes that the flurry increase should net the same dps as DA... but i guess he didnt think that while useing a shield, it only provides less then half the effectiveness that AA used to add.I agree, if they dont do something to fix shield dps/aggro, then its pointless to fix the rest. Knights get to kepe there 33-35% uncontested avoidance while doing there max dps, i dont get that. Guards are forced to duel wield, do LESS dps duel weild then knights do with a shield, and we lose our uncontested avoidance to do it. That just doesnt add up. You need to fix the shield tanking issue, if you dont want to give us a weapon bonus, then you need to add an AA in teh same spot in teh Tree of the knight weapon bonus that gives us liek 15% flurry when useing a shield, to make up for the lack of useing an offhand weapon.

Kain-UK

09-02-2010, 03:39 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, so I have a question with regards to the Aggression line in particular...Are you attempting to make Threat and Taunting a viable alternative to tanking through outright DPS? (which is what pretty much every other tank in the game does). I ask because I'm looking at my AA lines, and while I could shave some AA off the DPS line to fill out Aggression and eventually take "Shoulder the Burden", I'm a little concerned that doing so will not aleviate any of the problems I would have in Heroic content.Would just like a litte insight into what you guys are trying to accomplish with that change. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I really think that line is designed for heroic gameplay to allow a guard to be able to function in a group without hate buffers.At the raid level, much of what is in that line is already over cap without taking it, and the benefits are largely marginalized. I think this is why the raiding folks in these threads are harping so much on the dps differential, as it appears we will still struggle sustaining hate.</blockquote>Actually from what I was looking at, as long as you don't drop 5AA in the hate mod, the whole thing could be useful...Not on test atm, but 5AA in rescue and 5AA in enhancing taunts certainly sounds like a good way to go as it's doing more threat generation and reducing resistability on the taunts, not adding to hate mod and thus the cap doesn't come into play. I'm also looking at enhance plant, as that's a nice way to try and snap aggro back.

Undorett

09-02-2010, 04:17 PM

<cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, so I have a question with regards to the Aggression line in particular...Are you attempting to make Threat and Taunting a viable alternative to tanking through outright DPS? (which is what pretty much every other tank in the game does). I ask because I'm looking at my AA lines, and while I could shave some AA off the DPS line to fill out Aggression and eventually take "Shoulder the Burden", I'm a little concerned that doing so will not aleviate any of the problems I would have in Heroic content.Would just like a litte insight into what you guys are trying to accomplish with that change. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I really think that line is designed for heroic gameplay to allow a guard to be able to function in a group without hate buffers.At the raid level, much of what is in that line is already over cap without taking it, and the benefits are largely marginalized. I think this is why the raiding folks in these threads are harping so much on the dps differential, as it appears we will still struggle sustaining hate.</blockquote>Actually from what I was looking at, as long as you don't drop 5AA in the hate mod, the whole thing could be useful...Not on test atm, but 5AA in rescue and 5AA in enhancing taunts certainly sounds like a good way to go as it's doing more threat generation and reducing resistability on the taunts, not adding to hate mod and thus the cap doesn't come into play. I'm also looking at enhance plant, as that's a nice way to try and snap aggro back.</blockquote>Actually, 5pts in enhancing taunts would increase threat for both raiders and non raiders. You only need 4pts into enhance rescue to hard cap it, but really 3 points gets you close enough (10s from cap). 5pts in Reinforcement is a must. Enhance plant as it is now is useless on raids as almost all raid mobs are immune to locks (this is why plant should just be an AOE threat positional as it would help both raiders and non raiders...why Xelgad wants to limit the skill to only be useful in heroic content is beyond me). Any points in + hate mod is useless as we can cap on hate mod Via AA, Adorns, and gear already if needed. The end line ability is marginally useful, but it is underpowered. Overall this new tree is a failure as 2 of the AA in it are ones we already had, but are just placed in new positions. Change plant around to a positional with the Plant AA adding radius + taunt amount per point spent. Change the + hate AA to the enhance taunting blow AA we have in the slaughtering line AND Move down each of the slaughtering skills so that the last Slaughtering skill in the line is open and make it +1 cb or +1 pot to all skills per point. OR Change the + hate AA to the Enhance taunting assault AA we have in our TSO tree WITH a 20%/pt reduction in cast time as well and change that TSO AA into a boost to our raid wide buff (in this location it would no longer be considered overpowered to have something like damage reduction or some other great thing added to it like all the rest of the fighters do). Then I think we have a win for this AA line.Also, remove the Defense mod from our raid wide buff and change it to mitigation...maybe that would help offset some of this mitigation change everyone is blaming in guardians, even though we are going to be effected by it too. Who cares about defense mod =(

Raknid

09-02-2010, 04:43 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote> Who cares about defense mod =(</blockquote>Not to get all nostalgic, but defense mod ruled pre LU13. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Landiin

09-02-2010, 05:00 PM

They really can't add a + position to Plant b/c of what they did the HG/GS. Upping the taunt value wouldn't hurt though and I don't think crusaders would complain much about just upping the taunt value more vs a + Position added. Being we are the only class where our primary TPS comes from being hit they need to change the 5AA for + hate to something that increase HTL proc up to 75% - 85%, this with the proc on block would allow us to have some strong sustained threat. This not only would helps the heroic guard but the raid guard at the same time so it would be a win win IMO.

Kain-UK

09-02-2010, 05:09 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, so I have a question with regards to the Aggression line in particular...Are you attempting to make Threat and Taunting a viable alternative to tanking through outright DPS? (which is what pretty much every other tank in the game does). I ask because I'm looking at my AA lines, and while I could shave some AA off the DPS line to fill out Aggression and eventually take "Shoulder the Burden", I'm a little concerned that doing so will not aleviate any of the problems I would have in Heroic content.Would just like a litte insight into what you guys are trying to accomplish with that change. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I really think that line is designed for heroic gameplay to allow a guard to be able to function in a group without hate buffers.At the raid level, much of what is in that line is already over cap without taking it, and the benefits are largely marginalized. I think this is why the raiding folks in these threads are harping so much on the dps differential, as it appears we will still struggle sustaining hate.</blockquote>Actually from what I was looking at, as long as you don't drop 5AA in the hate mod, the whole thing could be useful...Not on test atm, but 5AA in rescue and 5AA in enhancing taunts certainly sounds like a good way to go as it's doing more threat generation and reducing resistability on the taunts, not adding to hate mod and thus the cap doesn't come into play. I'm also looking at enhance plant, as that's a nice way to try and snap aggro back.</blockquote>Actually, 5pts in enhancing taunts would increase threat for both raiders and non raiders. You only need 4pts into enhance rescue to hard cap it, but really 3 points gets you close enough (10s from cap). 5pts in Reinforcement is a must. Enhance plant as it is now is useless on raids as almost all raid mobs are immune to locks (this is why plant should just be an AOE threat positional as it would help both raiders and non raiders...why Xelgad wants to limit the skill to only be useful in heroic content is beyond me). Any points in + hate mod is useless as we can cap on hate mod Via AA, Adorns, and gear already if needed. The end line ability is marginally useful, but it is underpowered. Overall this new tree is a failure as 2 of the AA in it are ones we already had, but are just placed in new positions. Change plant around to a positional with the Plant AA adding radius + taunt amount per point spent. Change the + hate AA to the enhance taunting blow AA we have in the slaughtering line AND Move down each of the slaughtering skills so that the last Slaughtering skill in the line is open and make it +1 cb or +1 pot to all skills per point. OR Change the + hate AA to the Enhance taunting assault AA we have in our TSO tree WITH a 20%/pt reduction in cast time as well and change that TSO AA into a boost to our raid wide buff (in this location it would no longer be considered overpowered to have something like damage reduction or some other great thing added to it like all the rest of the fighters do). Then I think we have a win for this AA line.Also, remove the Defense mod from our raid wide buff and change it to mitigation...maybe that would help offset some of this mitigation change everyone is blaming in guardians, even though we are going to be effected by it too. Who cares about defense mod =(</blockquote>Raid mobs are immune to taunt locking???Well that sucks a big one. I'm trying to AA spec my guard for Heroic content atm, and getting a mirror to have a spec for raids... but I mostly raid on my Conjy (trying to get the guard geared so he can MT for our guild).

Undorett

09-02-2010, 05:09 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>They really can't add a + position to Plant b/c of what they did the HG/GS.</blockquote>You mean how both crusaders still have a blue positional agro abilitys, zerkers have blue positional agro abilities, and bruisers have a blue positional agro ability, so it would be overpowered to give one to guardians. We are not single target tanks, having tools to grab AOE agro in both heroic and epic content would allow us to do our jobs better. I already have one agro lock that doesn't work when I need it to, I don't particularly want a second.

Landiin

09-02-2010, 07:07 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>They really can't add a + position to Plant b/c of what they did the HG/GS.</blockquote>You mean how both crusaders still have a blue positional agro abilitys, zerkers have blue positional agro abilities, and bruisers have a blue positional agro ability, so it would be overpowered to give one to guardians. We are not single target tanks, having tools to grab AOE agro in both heroic and epic content would allow us to do our jobs better. I already have one agro lock that doesn't work when I need it to, I don't particularly want a second.</blockquote>My bad, I thought they took the position change off the crusaders. then /shrug put one one there <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> How many times have you tested the target lock on plant? I havn't had it resist one time and I go around trying it on all the heroic mobs i can get to with out dieing. CoW resist chance is just F'n high. Granted I have not had the change to run groups on test but from what I have been able to run in and use it on, no resist like CoW. So before you QQ about a CA try testing it out. Xelgad said he designed it for heroic content so /shrug seems to work for that. Don't get me wrong I would love to have a + positional blue aoe.

Xelgad

09-02-2010, 07:10 PM

<div><div><div>We decided to stick with the block chance on Armored, and it will grant 3% block chance per point (15% when maxed). We also increased Shoulder the Burden to a 15% siphon.</div> <div> </div> <div>If all goes according to plan, we should be able to push these changes Live by or on the week of the 13. With that in mind, please try to focus the feedback in this forum on bugs or minor tweaks. I'll still watch for the more complicated ideas in the class forums.</div></div></div>

Croba

09-02-2010, 07:23 PM

Those are two good changes.

Emlar_from_Halas

09-02-2010, 07:31 PM

13th of september is quite appealing for a first round of changes.Currently in test, Enhance : Armor provides only 1% block per AA.I suppose there will be an upgrade soon, is it ?But at 15%, it's definitely worth it.For raiders equiped guardians, aggression line is of little interest, but as you mentioned, this is targeting heroic/group focus guardians.

snowli

09-02-2010, 08:15 PM

I'm not a guardian, I'm a maintank healer. I'd like the guardian changes to work so I never think "crap, healers all knocked away/disabled/teleported/charmed/whatever, if only we had a sk maintank, bloodletter would keep us going".

Shareana

09-02-2010, 08:44 PM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=445320&post_id=5408388" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=44532...post_id=5408388</a> Let's keep on topic please <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

jadsded

09-03-2010, 02:17 AM

So after stealing some ideas from a couple of the previous posts:<ol><li>Change the hate mod AA to a HTL increase proc rate 3-5% per point.</li><li>Give Plant ability hate over time. Something like 85% of initial threat every 2 seconds. So Plant V at Expert it would be 1169 initially with 964 in 2 seconds and 964 more at 4 and 964 more at 6 then with 5 AA in plant 964 more at 8. This would make it a great way to lock those encounters for good in heroic and it would be at least helpful in raid. </li></ol>I agree with others that we need something to close the gap with the other plate tanks in the area of DPS, but with the possible changes to mitigation, I'll trade some dps for survivability (like we used to).

schizolic

09-03-2010, 06:47 AM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><div>We decided to stick with the block chance on Armored, and it will grant 3% block chance per point (15% when maxed). We also increased Shoulder the Burden to a 15% siphon.</div><div> </div><div>If all goes according to plan, we should be able to push these changes Live by or on the week of the 13. With that in mind, please try to focus the feedback in this forum on bugs or minor tweaks. I'll still watch for the more complicated ideas in the class forums.</div></div></div></blockquote>oh well, was hoping for something good, guess its betray or quit.really would have liked to have seen the armored block chance be an increase to autoattack damage like crusaders can take, that would have helped.

Kain-UK

09-03-2010, 07:47 AM

<cite>schizolic wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><div>We decided to stick with the block chance on Armored, and it will grant 3% block chance per point (15% when maxed). We also increased Shoulder the Burden to a 15% siphon.</div><div> </div><div>If all goes according to plan, we should be able to push these changes Live by or on the week of the 13. With that in mind, please try to focus the feedback in this forum on bugs or minor tweaks. I'll still watch for the more complicated ideas in the class forums.</div></div></div></blockquote>oh well, was hoping for something good, guess its betray or quit.really would have liked to have seen the armored block chance be an increase to autoattack damage like crusaders can take, that would have helped.</blockquote>That wouldn't make much sense on a DEFENSIVE stance though. Don't forget the AA crusaders get is seperate from their stances (I have a 90 SK and I don't even use that AA... FYI).Would be nice on the offensive stance though, or even on a group buff or one of our self-only buffs...

Brildean

09-03-2010, 11:27 AM

xelgad, 1.4% uncontested avoidance for 5 aa, is as bad as the 1% uncontested avoidance for 10 points from the warrior tree. Can we also get an additional effect tied to our defensive stance say 10% armor mitigation added to this aa.. if i'm giong to be going into this stance i want to be able to survive. If not i'll just in offensive with a shield and be at 31.1 uncontested instead of 32.5. I dont think anyone would take this aa. Unless to free up to 10 aa from warrior tree. These values are to low for what block chance adds. now if you were to say it increases your uncontested avoidance by 15% o hell ya i'd take it but its not doign that its on a block chane where block chance isn't worth the points.

Twizty

09-03-2010, 11:36 AM

Ok not bad so far, my thoughts are this. We already have enhanced moderate to make instance grouping enjoyable, slap a couple of hate adorns on your gear and you're set. However, the main problem I have is tanking raids. Keeping aggro from the big nukers and occasionally the OT if he's going for it, is hugely difficult sometimes. As we have seen, we will be getting no dps boost this side of the new expansion so thats a no no. You can increase taunts by whatever you like, in a raid scenario most of my threat comes from procs and HTL. Taunts make up a very small proportion of my threat generation as has already been said by others. What if the 15% siphon was made raidwide? It could be cast on a big hitter or even the OT when he doesnt need to get aggro. We get a threat siphon from thier dps, they can hit like crazy, everybody happy. Until we get more dps (we all know dps is threat at the moment) this seems like a good solution, plus it can still be useful in instances. I have all the hate I need from adorns, gear, dirge, coercer whatever in raid, way, way over the cap, it makes no difference whatsoever, I'm still fighting to hold aggro from the big hitters and the OT, almost always at 80-90% on the hate meter even with peaceful link and no hate buffs <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. This to me seems like a simple solution to an old problem. Guards can't generate enough hate on thier own at the moment, no amount of +threat % will change that, so let us steal someone elses and use it. At 15% it can hardly be called OP but it might just be enough to make a difference to us.

Terron

09-03-2010, 11:59 AM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><ul><li>We understand that a threat position increase would be more powerful on raids than the target lock for Plant, but the ability is intended to be more potent in heroic content than tough raid content. As above, why only heroic content, a lot of raid mobs will ignore this, can we at least have it doing some Melee damage again so we can use it with Reinforcement as we have always been doing, I consider this change more of a nerf than a benefit to me as a raiding Guardian. Maybe have the Hate on a DoT tick for that amount every 2 seconds and an initial hit of damage on the cast</li></ul></div><div></div></div></blockquote> Thanks for the update Xel, while we seem ungrateful a lot of us are glad we're at least getting some attention.</blockquote>As a non-raiding guardian I also consider the loss of the ability to trigger reinforcement to be a major nerf. It doesn't need to do a significant amout of damage, just so long as it triggers reinforcement. We only have 3 blue AE abilities to use for that currently, loosing one of them is not good.Otherwise the changes look pretty good as far as they go.You are in danger of replacing Domino as the most responsive developer <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Well done.

Undorett

09-03-2010, 12:11 PM

Could shoulder the burden be used on a raid member instead of just a group member? At 15% it is quite a bit lower than the pally amends skill as well as the assassin and swash transfers. I agree with the others, the Plant skill not being able to proc reinforcement is a nerf, if it must stay an agro only agro lock, can you change the code to make sure it can still proc reinforcement?As for the +hate mod in the new hate line, I have said it multiple times anything in this slot would be better. Others are saying an increase in the trigger chance of hold the line would be helpful, I would certainly take that before I would take yet another + hate mod AA.

Yimway

09-03-2010, 12:39 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>Could shoulder the burden be used on a raid member instead of just a group member? At 15% it is quite a bit lower than the pally amends skill as well as the assassin and swash transfers. </blockquote>This was my exact concern as well.Where many strides have been made in fixing many things about the class, looking at it, sitting behind a shield in defensive stance, I have reservations on if I can sustain sufficient aggro to do my job. a 15% siphon is interesting, but the targets available to me in the MT group aren't always too compelling to get the most out of this.I like the idea of defensive tanking being viable again, I'm really just not sold the TPS is there with the changes.

aislynn00

09-03-2010, 12:48 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>Could shoulder the burden be used on a raid member instead of just a group member? At 15% it is quite a bit lower than the pally amends skill as well as the assassin and swash transfers. </blockquote>This was my exact concern as well.Where many strides have been made in fixing many things about the class, looking at it, sitting behind a shield in defensive stance, I have reservations on if I can sustain sufficient aggro to do my job. a 15% siphon is interesting, but the targets available to me in the MT group aren't always too compelling to get the most out of this.I like the idea of defensive tanking being viable again, I'm really just not sold the TPS is there with the changes.</blockquote>Of course it isn't there. What hate generation boosts are we gaining while wielding a shield? 3% Flurry, 25% and 30% bonuses to our two basic taunts, and 25% bonus to Hold the Line. Of that, the greatest benefit is derived from Hold the Line procs. Even so, with raid buffs, including max'ed Hate Bonus, all of the changes together amount to perhaps 2K - 2.5K hate/sec vs a single raid boss. And that is supposed to make up for crusaders dealing three times our DPS?

Gungo

09-03-2010, 12:48 PM

<cite>Brildean wrote:</cite><blockquote>xelgad, 1.4% uncontested avoidance for 5 aa, is as bad as the 1% uncontested avoidance for 10 points from the warrior tree. Can we also get an additional effect tied to our defensive stance say 10% armor mitigation added to this aa.. if i'm giong to be going into this stance i want to be able to survive. If not i'll just in offensive with a shield and be at 31.1 uncontested instead of 32.5. I dont think anyone would take this aa. Unless to free up to 10 aa from warrior tree. These values are to low for what block chance adds. now if you were to say it increases your uncontested avoidance by 15% o hell ya i'd take it but its not doign that its on a block chane where block chance isn't worth the points.</blockquote>I would like to know what kind of math you are using to come up with 1.4%. Because unless you are using a round shield its alot higher then that.

Brildean

09-03-2010, 12:48 PM

I dont think he'll be changing it to a raid target buff he pretty much stated the aggression line is for heroic tanks. But since heroic instances are about how fast you can get through the zone.. hrmm whos going to take a guard doing 10k dps vs another tank that can do 20 to 30k dps watching tv.

Twizty

09-03-2010, 01:14 PM

I have pretty decent gear compared to most, even when I dual wield in off stance my dps is miniscule compared to my sk or pally, instances are really a grind, even 'easy' zones like the library. Seriously, depending on the group I take in there it can take a stupid amount of additional time to do these zones. We have pretty much been told, we wont get any more dps. So if the plan is to make us just raid tanks, then give us the tools to do the job. As Atan said there is usually no one in the MT group that we could use the hate siphon on to any great effect. I really cant see what it would hurt if it was made raidwide. Most raids have at least one uber nuker/scout in one of the other groups that we could cast it on, as I said before, even the OT when they dont need to have aggro would be good. I think personally this would make a difference to us as MT guards, not OP, just enough to help. I have all the hate mods, gear procs, adorns I can get but still have issues holding aggro sometimes in raid. I dont want easymode by any stretch but seriously, if you're not giving us an increase to our pitiful dps then give us something like this. If not this, then something to increase HTL by a serious amount as its our only real threat gen besides gear procs.

Yimway

09-03-2010, 01:17 PM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I like the idea of defensive tanking being viable again, I'm really just not sold the TPS is there with the changes.</blockquote>Of course it isn't there. What hate generation boosts are we gaining while wielding a shield? 3% Flurry, 25% and 30% bonuses to our two basic taunts, and 25% bonus to Hold the Line. Of that, the greatest benefit is derived from Hold the Line procs. Even so, with raid buffs, including max'ed Hate Bonus, all of the changes together amount to perhaps 2K - 2.5K hate/sec vs a single raid boss. And that is supposed to make up for crusaders dealing three times our DPS?</blockquote>Yeah, thats my fear as well.I was looking at sword and board parses again lastnight, reviewing these changes, and just not seeing how I'm going to keep hate reliably in this build. Its tenuous at best.

slippery

09-03-2010, 01:34 PM

I understand that you want to look at Sentry Watch but feel the coding is pretty deep to just change right now without a lot of time. How about a compromise? Make the Guardian take like 15% instead of 100% (other person still doesn't take any damage). Or just add a guaranteed stoneskin to the intercept.

Brildean

09-03-2010, 01:39 PM

They need to increase the base of htl to 10k threat.. i mean paladins get cavelier strike that is a target encoutner taunt proc. that does 5k for every mob in the encounter.. yet we get a little tuant that procs 50% of the time on being hit and another one that procs at 100% for blocking an attack.. yet they make undeniable malice items that put out more threat persecond than HTL. We are the redheaded step children of the tank world.. we do the least amount of dps, the least amount of threat and we hve the least amount of survivability.. No real damage reduction, no deathsave worth a grain of salt tell after level 81, So they either need to give us the Threat out put to keep a single target on us or give us the dps to keep that target on us..I'm sick of seeing these changes that are so out of the world of gameplay to the guardian class that its rediculous. A threat transfer for 20 aa's spent in a line that is more useless than the end line of STR in the warrior tree.Is the dev team really this far out, they dont even know the current problems of what it is to be a guardian.. Why are Hybrid tanks *paladin, sk's* and offensive warriors able to out survive the defensive tank by nature. They are able to out tps us, out survive, out dps.. Why bring us along xelgad. All i keep hearing is small changes at a time.. okay so your giving us one baby step but you gave all the other classes 10 big steps forward in one patch. So can we advance to the 100 baby steps and get us in place and balanced to the other tanks in either tps or dps.We are the only plate tank that can't do there primary job in a raid or even heroic depending on the group make up and that is to take the hits for the group, and that is because we suck at aggro control.

Brildean

09-03-2010, 02:06 PM

you get a .2 uncontested for very every 1% block chance you get. so its 3% uncontested for 5 aa's... this is with the shield from hard mode twins. so i bet with heroic tanks it will be even less of a gain. so its based on the base protection value of the shield.and the worst part about it is you have to be in defensive..

Daalilama

09-03-2010, 05:41 PM

I'd venture to say a sizeable number chiming in nowadays on all forums with their 2cents have not played a guardian longer than 2 years...be that as it may some of the changes seem to be a step in the right direction as long as the premise of the defensive tank is maintained...i.e. being the number 1 tank at controling agro on a single target....main reason I retired my guard was quite frankly the push for ever-increasing dps output and the diminishing tps output(SOE has a majority of the blame there)....their taunts were woefully underpowered forthe job given them...and yet some of the same in this thread said the class was fine...If your only got tunnel vision for pushin enhanced dsp changes on the defensive tank...you will doom the class to being obsolete.

Gungo

09-03-2010, 07:40 PM

<cite>Brildean wrote:</cite><blockquote>you get a .2 uncontested for very every 1% block chance you get. so its 3% uncontested for 5 aa's... this is with the shield from hard mode twins. so i bet with heroic tanks it will be even less of a gain. so its based on the base protection value of the shield.and the worst part about it is you have to be in defensive..</blockquote>The most accurate way to tell how much uncontested block you get with a particular shield is removing all block chance and block AA. Your personae window should show 0 block/0 block chance. Then equiping the shield you want to test (remove any % block chance it gives mathematically). last time I checked on test. The hard mode twins shield was providing ~24% BASE block. So 15% block chance is 3.6% uncontested block.Your number is probably close to correct my guess is the actual increase is closer to 0.204 for every 1% block chance you get with the hard mode twins shield. SOE doesnt show % past a tenth of a percent which is probably why our numbers are not in sync.The worst case scenario for very undergeared guardian is A lvl 90 mastercrafted tower shield which provides 19% base block. With 15% block chance thats an extra 2.85 uncontested block.

aislynn00

09-03-2010, 08:40 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brildean wrote:</cite><blockquote>xelgad, 1.4% uncontested avoidance for 5 aa, is as bad as the 1% uncontested avoidance for 10 points from the warrior tree. Can we also get an additional effect tied to our defensive stance say 10% armor mitigation added to this aa.. if i'm giong to be going into this stance i want to be able to survive. If not i'll just in offensive with a shield and be at 31.1 uncontested instead of 32.5. I dont think anyone would take this aa. Unless to free up to 10 aa from warrior tree. These values are to low for what block chance adds. now if you were to say it increases your uncontested avoidance by 15% o hell ya i'd take it but its not doign that its on a block chane where block chance isn't worth the points.</blockquote>I would like to know what kind of math you are using to come up with 1.4%. Because unless you are using a round shield its alot higher then that. </blockquote>15% Block Chance adds about 3% Block (uncontested avoidance) with a fabled tier 9 tower shield. Not a bad AA, but not a great one either, considering it relies on us crippling our DPS even further (i.e., we have to be in defensive and give up dual-wielding in order to be able to block) when our utter DPS inferiority is just as great an issue as our lack of survivability edge vs paladins and berserkers in particular.Granted, the mitigation changes coupled with the crit heal nerf definitely help us gain back lost ground vs paladins (who still remain too powerful defensively, given the amount of DPS they are able to put out), but berserkers have almost the same mitigation as guardians while still retaining two death saves and the best defensive ability in the game (ToS comes in a distant second, in my view), Adrenaline. On top of that, they completely destroy us in DPS vs multiple mobs while pulling ahead even vs single targets.Considering we aren't likely to see targeted nerfs vs berserkers and paladins, guardians still have a ways to go, specifically as far as hate generation and DPS with a shield go. It continues to baffle me that crusaders, as opposed to guardians, ever got Knight's Stance. If it was changed to solely affect two-handers, the bonus was reduced from 25% to 15%, and guardians got their own version of Knight's Stance affecting sword-and-board DPS with the full 25% bonus, then we would be making some real progress.

Kain-UK

09-03-2010, 09:22 PM

I'd personally like to see less of an emphasis on DPS and more on Threat Generation for the supposed "defensive" tank.It irk's me that [Removed for Content] near every class is expected to DPS these days. Mages and Scouts I fully understand, to a certain degree. But these days, even healers are expected to DPS and tanks are expected to DPS to maintain aggro.How about giving Guardian's some serious threat boosts? My SK's encounter taunt does 4k minimum threat, while his single target does about the same, but with a ToT component (both expert), then he has GS which pulls another 3k minimum, ignoring the ToT component. His shield slam then gives another 3.4k threat as well, again with a ToT component.In contrast, the Guardian single-target taunt only does 3.1k base (Master), the encounter taunt does 2.2k base (Master) and we currently have no AOE taunt, though Plant will help a little with that. We do have Taunting Blow, which does another 3.1k (Master), Taunting Assault (2.2k, Master) and Sentinel Strike (AA Ability, 3.4k base with a ToT).So, comparing the two... my SK with Experts can pull approx 14.4k threat from his Single Target, Encounter and AOE taunts, plus a CA. That doesn't then take into account the ToT effects, crits, potency, ability mod or SK's Furor which procs a load more threat AND makes him parry/riposte damage for 15 seconds... oh... and increases his spell damage by 20%.My guardian, who has masters of everything that generates threat, can pull 14k threat as an approx base... again not factoring crits, potency, ability mod, etc. Only one of those has a ToT effect on it.So let me get this right... my Guardian... who has MASTERS of his threat generation abilities, actually generates less threat than my SK with Experts?I think this needs looking at. BTW, this is comparing them both on live. It doesn't take into account the new AA's on test, so they may help... but even so, that still seems wrong that an SK with Experts can generate more BASE threat than a Guardian with Masters. If we are to be tanking in defensive stance, which certainly appears to be the case with these changes, then I really think our taunts need a boost... and NOT just from AA.Either give us more threat or give us more DPS. The only thing my Guardian has over my SK... even though my SK has better gear... is 3k HP. Most groups would rather have an SK that can generate more actual threat AND out DPS a guardian easily than have a Guardian.I'll bet raids are very similar.

Ardors

09-04-2010, 08:18 PM

<cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd personally like to see less of an emphasis on DPS and more on Threat Generation for the supposed "defensive" tank.It irk's me that [Removed for Content] near every class is expected to DPS these days. Mages and Scouts I fully understand, to a certain degree. But these days, even healers are expected to DPS and tanks are expected to DPS to maintain aggro.How about giving Guardian's some serious threat boosts? My SK's encounter taunt does 4k minimum threat, while his single target does about the same, but with a ToT component (both expert), then he has GS which pulls another 3k minimum, ignoring the ToT component. His shield slam then gives another 3.4k threat as well, again with a ToT component.In contrast, the Guardian single-target taunt only does 3.1k base (Master), the encounter taunt does 2.2k base (Master) and we currently have no AOE taunt, though Plant will help a little with that. We do have Taunting Blow, which does another 3.1k (Master), Taunting Assault (2.2k, Master) and Sentinel Strike (AA Ability, 3.4k base with a ToT).So, comparing the two... my SK with Experts can pull approx 14.4k threat from his Single Target, Encounter and AOE taunts, plus a CA. That doesn't then take into account the ToT effects, crits, potency, ability mod or SK's Furor which procs a load more threat AND makes him parry/riposte damage for 15 seconds... oh... and increases his spell damage by 20%.My guardian, who has masters of everything that generates threat, can pull 14k threat as an approx base... again not factoring crits, potency, ability mod, etc. Only one of those has a ToT effect on it.So let me get this right... my Guardian... who has MASTERS of his threat generation abilities, actually generates less threat than my SK with Experts?I think this needs looking at. BTW, this is comparing them both on live. It doesn't take into account the new AA's on test, so they may help... but even so, that still seems wrong that an SK with Experts can generate more BASE threat than a Guardian with Masters. If we are to be tanking in defensive stance, which certainly appears to be the case with these changes, then I really think our taunts need a boost... and NOT just from AA.Either give us more threat or give us more DPS. The only thing my Guardian has over my SK... even though my SK has better gear... is 3k HP. Most groups would rather have an SK that can generate more actual threat AND out DPS a guardian easily than have a Guardian.I'll bet raids are very similar.</blockquote>You see Yaevin, they can give us all the TPS they want, I am a raid Guard and I can tell you that it will not change the desireability of guards in raids... It's been said counteless times on the feedback thread in the guard forum, as long as the other tank classes can survive as good or even better than Guards and put out twice the DPS, why bring a guard?... its that simple really... there are many DPS check encounters in the high end raids and its priority atm...We will have to see what the Mit nerf does but i dont think it will change much tbo, caus I predict they will adjust encounters accordingly.So simply, they have to increase our DPS to be on par with other tanks, or they nerf the other tanks in survivebility...Offence, survivability, and utility are the 3 balancing factors for tanks... right now, Guards are at the bottom of all 3...that aint right...So yeah, the change on test will surely help the heroic Guard and thats great,,, But i sure hope more is comming for the Raiding Guardian because we will still warm up the bench with them changes...

Kain-UK

09-04-2010, 09:34 PM

<cite>Ardors wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd personally like to see less of an emphasis on DPS and more on Threat Generation for the supposed "defensive" tank.It irk's me that [Removed for Content] near every class is expected to DPS these days. Mages and Scouts I fully understand, to a certain degree. But these days, even healers are expected to DPS and tanks are expected to DPS to maintain aggro.How about giving Guardian's some serious threat boosts? My SK's encounter taunt does 4k minimum threat, while his single target does about the same, but with a ToT component (both expert), then he has GS which pulls another 3k minimum, ignoring the ToT component. His shield slam then gives another 3.4k threat as well, again with a ToT component.In contrast, the Guardian single-target taunt only does 3.1k base (Master), the encounter taunt does 2.2k base (Master) and we currently have no AOE taunt, though Plant will help a little with that. We do have Taunting Blow, which does another 3.1k (Master), Taunting Assault (2.2k, Master) and Sentinel Strike (AA Ability, 3.4k base with a ToT).So, comparing the two... my SK with Experts can pull approx 14.4k threat from his Single Target, Encounter and AOE taunts, plus a CA. That doesn't then take into account the ToT effects, crits, potency, ability mod or SK's Furor which procs a load more threat AND makes him parry/riposte damage for 15 seconds... oh... and increases his spell damage by 20%.My guardian, who has masters of everything that generates threat, can pull 14k threat as an approx base... again not factoring crits, potency, ability mod, etc. Only one of those has a ToT effect on it.So let me get this right... my Guardian... who has MASTERS of his threat generation abilities, actually generates less threat than my SK with Experts?I think this needs looking at. BTW, this is comparing them both on live. It doesn't take into account the new AA's on test, so they may help... but even so, that still seems wrong that an SK with Experts can generate more BASE threat than a Guardian with Masters. If we are to be tanking in defensive stance, which certainly appears to be the case with these changes, then I really think our taunts need a boost... and NOT just from AA.Either give us more threat or give us more DPS. The only thing my Guardian has over my SK... even though my SK has better gear... is 3k HP. Most groups would rather have an SK that can generate more actual threat AND out DPS a guardian easily than have a Guardian.I'll bet raids are very similar.</blockquote>You see Yaevin, they can give us all the TPS they want, I am a raid Guard and I can tell you that it will not change the desireability of guards in raids... It's been said counteless times on the feedback thread in the guard forum, as long as the other tank classes can survive as good or even better than Guards and put out twice the DPS, why bring a guard?... its that simple really... there are many DPS check encounters in the high end raids and its priority atm...We will have to see what the Mit nerf does but i dont think it will change much tbo, caus I predict they will adjust encounters accordingly.So simply, they have to increase our DPS to be on par with other tanks, or they nerf the other tanks in survivebility...Offence, survivability, and utility are the 3 balancing factors for tanks... right now, Guards are at the bottom of all 3...that aint right...So yeah, the change on test will surely help the heroic Guard and thats great,,, But i sure hope more is comming for the Raiding Guardian because we will still warm up the bench with them changes...</blockquote>That's funny, I was asked to level and SWAP to Guardian by my guild because they wanted one as a raid MT and I hated playing a Berserker... :pThe reason for that being they have better survivability than the SK we have MT'ing right now.What they need to do is enhance mitigation for Guards, and avoidance. The HP buffs are going in the right direction. Hell, maybe even giving us Crit Mit on the defensive stance for raiding purposes might be beneficial and make guards more desirable over other tanks.... at least until they get geared out. IMO, a defensive style tank just shouldn't have to be relying on DPS to hold aggro in a Heroic situation (which is what I was pointing out in my post, btw) and they certainly shouldn't have to worry about DPS in raids due to crappy mechanics.The job of the MT is to surrive and keep the mobs/frontals away from everyone else.

schizolic

09-05-2010, 03:31 AM

<cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>schizolic wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><div>We decided to stick with the block chance on Armored, and it will grant 3% block chance per point (15% when maxed). We also increased Shoulder the Burden to a 15% siphon.</div><div> </div><div>If all goes according to plan, we should be able to push these changes Live by or on the week of the 13. With that in mind, please try to focus the feedback in this forum on bugs or minor tweaks. I'll still watch for the more complicated ideas in the class forums.</div></div></div></blockquote>oh well, was hoping for something good, guess its betray or quit.really would have liked to have seen the armored block chance be an increase to autoattack damage like crusaders can take, that would have helped.</blockquote>That wouldn't make much sense on a DEFENSIVE stance though. Don't forget the AA crusaders get is seperate from their stances (I have a 90 SK and I don't even use that AA... FYI).Would be nice on the offensive stance though, or even on a group buff or one of our self-only buffs...</blockquote>no different than throwing defensive abilities on an offensive ability, like the modified bash. but seriously, need something to up aggro while having to fight defensive, and thats a suggestion, heck, they can add a large threat proc to it and that would be ok, but wouldnt help with the overall disadvantage to taking a guard over any other tank in heroic or raid settings.

Zorbac

09-06-2010, 08:17 AM

I am confused about hate mod. I currently have 33% self mod and well over 90% when buffed. Is this "cap" on my self hate mod or does it include the dirge/coercer buffs. Will this "siphon" be included in this cap?I was hoping these " changes" would help with raiding. I only raid with my gaurd sooo i guess im stuck at #2;/

Terron

09-06-2010, 10:28 AM

<cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's funny, I was asked to level and SWAP to Guardian by my guild because they wanted one as a raid MT and I hated playing a Berserker... :pThe reason for that being they have better survivability than the SK we have MT'ing right now.</blockquote>That's odd. Generally SKs would have better survivability.<cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>What they need to do is enhance mitigation for Guards, and avoidance. The HP buffs are going in the right direction. Hell, maybe even giving us Crit Mit on the defensive stance for raiding purposes might be beneficial and make guards more desirable over other tanks.... at least until they get geared out. IMO, a defensive style tank just shouldn't have to be relying on DPS to hold aggro in a Heroic situation (which is what I was pointing out in my post, btw) and they certainly shouldn't have to worry about DPS in raids due to crappy mechanics.</blockquote>There are 2 problems with that.<ul><li>Excess defense is not very useful. Once you are able to survive what a mob throws at you, extra defensive abilities are of very little worth (unless they are so much that you can get by with fewer healers). Excess DPS only exists where the raid script limits it.</li><li>Every type of tank is supposed to be able to tank every raid. Which means that even the least defensive tank has to have enough defense.</li></ul>So we have gone from RoK where a guards extra defense was needed making guards the top raid tank, to now where the extra defense is worth very little compared to the DPS other tanks bring.<cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite> <blockquote>The job of the MT is to surrive and keep the mobs/frontals away from everyone else.</blockquote> And when every fighter can do that job, they get judged based on what else they can bring. The DPS of the offensive tanks is a bonus to the raid on top of filling the MT role. Guards have nothing to match that bonus.

Shorcon

09-06-2010, 08:00 PM

Shorcon

09-06-2010, 08:14 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>In regards to the mit buffs thing, I don't feel they are useless. They may not be of personal use, but that doesn't mean they aren't useful. The group one is good for helping your group take less damage from trauma ae's, which usually hit pretty hard. The single one that used to snare can give you 10% block chance with aa's, which is nice as well.</blockquote>While the group wide mit buff does offer some survivability on trauma AOEs, it offers very little directly to the guardian, and if it was changed to a damage reduction ability, it would offer the same survivability benefit to the group while also adding a benefit to the guardian. I also realize that you can place 5AA into the personal mitigation boost to gain 10 block chance...so the skill only has a benefit if you put 5AA into it, and the benefit you get out of it is an increase of about 1% avoidance somewhere around 50% of the time. This skill was meant to make you into a brick wall at the cost of your DPS, but with the current mechanics and loot in the game, it just doesn't do much of anything.</blockquote>I sit back and wonder sometimes. Really do. Your grp mit buff called Battle Cry is your lifeline. It's what seperates you from the rest. Keep in mind that if things roll the way they are on test we are all in trouble atm. I as a t9 fabled gaurdian full aa full master cannot cap my mit against a 90 mob. Thats with every possible point in mit aa and all defensive raid gear equiped(blue stat to mit). I even have 3 or 4 mit blue stat jewlery on .. Under both Battle Cry and Cry of the Warrior I cannot cap against a 90. What's gonna happen then when we go against a Physical damage mob like Illisaad? We are gonna get 2 shot on the knockback. Is this what you intended? I now pull 90x4 using both cooldowns consecutively. Giving my guardian an extra boost to my already solo capped 75% against a 90 mob. Am I missing something here? Are blue stat fixes going to push all tanks to around 68% Mit Solo? Whats the purpose of this if so? Are we going to be required 3 heals in all MT grps for every pull? The blue stat to mit might be broken. Can you please look into this xelgad?

vinere

09-06-2010, 08:20 PM

<cite>Zorbac wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am confused about hate mod. I currently have 33% self mod and well over 90% when buffed. Is this "cap" on my self hate mod or does it include the dirge/coercer buffs. Will this "siphon" be included in this cap?I was hoping these " changes" would help with raiding. I only raid with my gaurd sooo i guess im stuck at #2;/</blockquote>There are two differnt things, Hate mod, and hate transfer, both of which are each capped individually at 50%. So in a raid you have 40% wasted hate mod... and For Hate transfer you have some from a coercer, and i would guess if your grups are setup right, you get some from a sin/swash, which doesnt get you all the way to 50% but with the new siphon u will be over 50%.

Shorcon

09-06-2010, 08:28 PM

<cite>vinere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zorbac wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am confused about hate mod. I currently have 33% self mod and well over 90% when buffed. Is this "cap" on my self hate mod or does it include the dirge/coercer buffs. Will this "siphon" be included in this cap?I was hoping these " changes" would help with raiding. I only raid with my gaurd sooo i guess im stuck at #2;/</blockquote>There are two differnt things, Hate mod, and hate transfer, both of which are each capped individually at 50%. So in a raid you have 40% wasted hate mod... and For Hate transfer you have some from a coercer, and i would guess if your grups are setup right, you get some from a sin/swash, which doesnt get you all the way to 50% but with the new siphon u will be over 50%.</blockquote>If im not mistaken hate mod is 100 and transfer is 50. Coercers give mod not transfer.

slippery

09-06-2010, 08:58 PM

You are mistaken. Hate mod is capped at 50%, so is transfer. Coercers also give both hate mod and transfer.

Shorcon

09-06-2010, 09:18 PM

<cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are mistaken. Hate mod is capped at 50%, so is transfer. Coercers also give both hate mod and transfer.</blockquote>k. Slippery have you been on test and checked mit? I believe the blue stat nerf is gonna cause issues.

Cyrdemac

09-06-2010, 09:19 PM

Plant is blue now on Test.

slippery

09-06-2010, 09:19 PM

It just depends on if they adjust mobs auto attack damage, especially on encounters where you are using 3+ tanks.

schizolic

09-07-2010, 03:04 AM

<cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are mistaken. Hate mod is capped at 50%, so is transfer. Coercers also give both hate mod and transfer.</blockquote>makes you wonder what they intended with that tribunal spell that increases hate mod by 100% <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Landiin

09-07-2010, 03:04 AM

Plant has always been blue.

Shorcon

09-07-2010, 03:05 AM

Kain-UK

09-07-2010, 06:50 AM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's funny, I was asked to level and SWAP to Guardian by my guild because they wanted one as a raid MT and I hated playing a Berserker... :pThe reason for that being they have better survivability than the SK we have MT'ing right now.</blockquote>That's odd. Generally SKs would have better survivability.<cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>What they need to do is enhance mitigation for Guards, and avoidance. The HP buffs are going in the right direction. Hell, maybe even giving us Crit Mit on the defensive stance for raiding purposes might be beneficial and make guards more desirable over other tanks.... at least until they get geared out. IMO, a defensive style tank just shouldn't have to be relying on DPS to hold aggro in a Heroic situation (which is what I was pointing out in my post, btw) and they certainly shouldn't have to worry about DPS in raids due to crappy mechanics.</blockquote>There are 2 problems with that.<ul><li>Excess defense is not very useful. Once you are able to survive what a mob throws at you, extra defensive abilities are of very little worth (unless they are so much that you can get by with fewer healers). Excess DPS only exists where the raid script limits it.</li><li>Every type of tank is supposed to be able to tank every raid. Which means that even the least defensive tank has to have enough defense.</li></ul>So we have gone from RoK where a guards extra defense was needed making guards the top raid tank, to now where the extra defense is worth very little compared to the DPS other tanks bring.<cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite> <blockquote>The job of the MT is to surrive and keep the mobs/frontals away from everyone else.</blockquote> And when every fighter can do that job, they get judged based on what else they can bring. The DPS of the offensive tanks is a bonus to the raid on top of filling the MT role. Guards have nothing to match that bonus.</blockquote>And if you can get by with fewer healers in the MT group (though most raids seem to run with 2), then that'd allow things to be changed around a bit and maybe even allow some extra DPS in the raid.As for my comment about the MT surviving, yes every fighter can currently do that job. What I'm trying to point out, and it would be useful if people actually made suggestions rather than just shooting down what I'm saying, is the Guard should be able to do it better. They have HP increasing buffs, they should be getting other things as well... doesn't matter if it's more mit, more avoidance, outright damage reduction... whatever is needed to make a guild go "Ok, they do less DPS than other tanks, but [Removed for Content] they can hold aggro and take hits like a champ!".The devs working on this need to be looking at the Guard and making them -the- defensive tank. Then people have a simple choice. Do you take the tank that can DPS but might need the old-style 3 healer MT group, or do you take the Guard who can survive with two, boost your raids HP (and maybe defensive abilities... just throwing it out there) and thus increase survivability while still being able to hold aggro?*shrug* That's the way they should be heading IMO... and if that means that raid encounters may need rebalancing so people don't just take the highest DPS tank as their MT, then the dev's need to do that.

Terron

09-07-2010, 07:26 AM

<cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are 2 problems with that.<ul><li>Excess defense is not very useful. Once you are able to survive what a mob throws at you, extra defensive abilities are of very little worth (unless they are so much that you can get by with fewer healers). Excess DPS only exists where the raid script limits it.</li><li>Every type of tank is supposed to be able to tank every raid. Which means that even the least defensive tank has to have enough defense.</li></ul>So we have gone from RoK where a guards extra defense was needed making guards the top raid tank, to now where the extra defense is worth very little compared to the DPS other tanks bring.</blockquote>As for my comment about the MT surviving, yes every fighter can currently do that job. What I'm trying to point out, and it would be useful if people actually made suggestions rather than just shooting down what I'm saying, is the Guard should be able to do it better. They have HP increasing buffs, they should be getting other things as well... doesn't matter if it's more mit, more avoidance, outright damage reduction... whatever is needed to make a guild go "Ok, they do less DPS than other tanks, but [Removed for Content] they can hold aggro and take hits like a champ!".The devs working on this need to be looking at the Guard and making them -the- defensive tank. Then people have a simple choice. Do you take the tank that can DPS but might need the old-style 3 healer MT group, or do you take the Guard who can survive with two, boost your raids HP (and maybe defensive abilities... just throwing it out there) and thus increase survivability while still being able to hold aggro?*shrug* That's the way they should be heading IMO... and if that means that raid encounters may need rebalancing so people don't just take the highest DPS tank as their MT, then the dev's need to do that.</blockquote>As I have already pointed once you have enough defense, any more is near worthless. So you are asking for guardians to be given more worthless abilities. (Though bringing our defense up to be on a par with other plate fighters would be good).If they rebalance the raids so that they need a guard's extra defense, then we would be back to the RoK situation where guards dominate as raid MTs, and whilst that might delight many players of guards it would really annoy many who play other fighters and is clearly something SoE decided move away from when they did the first part of the fighter rebalance. So that is not going to happen. The idea of guards as being so good defensively that it compensates for a lack of everything else belongs to the past. We need to be looking to the future.And I have made suggestions, but they belong in another thread.

Kain-UK

09-07-2010, 11:32 AM

Actually if you re-read the post you quoted, I did more than just suggest more defense... (Like mit, or damage reduction, or something else that might actually be -useful-)And considering this thread is about Guardian changes, then maybe you SHOULD be posting your ideas here as well as wherever else they're hiding.

Terron

09-07-2010, 12:00 PM

<cite>Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually if you re-read the post you quoted, I did more than just suggest more defense... (Like mit, or damage reduction, or something else that might actually be -useful-)And considering this thread is about Guardian changes, then maybe you SHOULD be posting your ideas here as well as wherever else they're hiding.</blockquote>Mit and damage reduction are forms of defense (as is the defense skill), and all will have little effect in making guardians more wanted for raids (unless raid mobs being made that need the extra survivability which won't happen).This thread is for feedback on the changes on test. The guardian forum has a thread for other ideas.

Shorcon

09-07-2010, 12:06 PM

Xelgad, can you please post the mechanics change thats out on test atm? With mit not being able to cap vs. a 90 mob we are seriously wondering what will balance this out. Is physical damaging from mobs going to be decreased? What gives?

Undorett

09-07-2010, 12:28 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>In regards to the mit buffs thing, I don't feel they are useless. They may not be of personal use, but that doesn't mean they aren't useful. The group one is good for helping your group take less damage from trauma ae's, which usually hit pretty hard. The single one that used to snare can give you 10% block chance with aa's, which is nice as well.</blockquote>While the group wide mit buff does offer some survivability on trauma AOEs, it offers very little directly to the guardian, and if it was changed to a damage reduction ability, it would offer the same survivability benefit to the group while also adding a benefit to the guardian. I also realize that you can place 5AA into the personal mitigation boost to gain 10 block chance...so the skill only has a benefit if you put 5AA into it, and the benefit you get out of it is an increase of about 1% avoidance somewhere around 50% of the time. This skill was meant to make you into a brick wall at the cost of your DPS, but with the current mechanics and loot in the game, it just doesn't do much of anything.</blockquote>I sit back and wonder sometimes. Really do. Your grp mit buff called Battle Cry is your lifeline. It's what seperates you from the rest. Keep in mind that if things roll the way they are on test we are all in trouble atm. I as a t9 fabled gaurdian full aa full master cannot cap my mit against a 90 mob. Thats with every possible point in mit aa and all defensive raid gear equiped(blue stat to mit). I even have 3 or 4 mit blue stat jewlery on .. Under both Battle Cry and Cry of the Warrior I cannot cap against a 90. What's gonna happen then when we go against a Physical damage mob like Illisaad? We are gonna get 2 shot on the knockback. Is this what you intended? I now pull 90x4 using both cooldowns consecutively. Giving my guardian an extra boost to my already solo capped 75% against a 90 mob. Am I missing something here? Are blue stat fixes going to push all tanks to around 68% Mit Solo? Whats the purpose of this if so? Are we going to be required 3 heals in all MT grps for every pull? The blue stat to mit might be broken. Can you please look into this xelgad?</blockquote>Take a look at when it was posted before you start to "sit back and wonder sometimes" battle cry does nothing for my personal mitigation on live, it does on test now, but not when that was posted. Also, battle cry doesn't separate guardians from the rest of anyone, both warriors have a group +mit boost as well as a personal +mit boost. Anyway, until he makes changes to the mitigation effects / mob damage he said he would be changing in the mitigation thread, its hard to know how they will effect raiding.

Gungo

09-07-2010, 12:39 PM

<cite>schizolic wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are mistaken. Hate mod is capped at 50%, so is transfer. Coercers also give both hate mod and transfer.</blockquote>makes you wonder what they intended with that tribunal spell that increases hate mod by 100% <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>There is a small issue with the original comment it was stated by developers awhile back that certain abilites will overcap transfers and hate. This was a long time ago when they were discussing Paladins sigil spell. I believe but there is no way to confirm it without a developer that the tribunal 100% hate buff DOES go to 100% hate. It doesnt help that the personae window doesnt show you how much is used and how much is unused.

Yimway

09-07-2010, 12:53 PM

+hate just sounds cool to players. They've sprinkled it on gear, adornments, spells, aa, etc, but have been glossing over the relatively low cap on it (+50). I had posted in Timetraveling's consolidated mechanics thread (that has somehow vanished from the forums now) about this issue, and why all the +hate itemization if the bonuses are not useful with current caps.It would be FAR better if the +hate modifiers from AA be replaced with adding taunt value to a non-taunt based CA, like adding xxxx taunt to kick CA vs anything with +hate mod (which is trivially capped).My only remaining concern on this revamp is TPS generation locked in d-stance behind a board. I'm really not sold that there is enough there to hold mobs against dps going all out. I can't actually test this on test, as i'm not going to get a raid to patch test just to check hate.So, I guess we wait till its live to see if it actually holds water.

Davngr1

09-07-2010, 01:04 PM

why are people even caring about survivability being added to a guard when the current survivability is enough to live in any situation (unless you have no healers). if you're going to beef up surviviability. make it so it's available FULL TIME not just when the shield is on. so i can go full offensive with my guard and still keep ALL MY SAVES like the offensive tanks can. guard needs more damage, it needs to be fun again. stop with the hum drum survivability non-sense, NO PLATE TANK CLASS DIES.

Gungo

09-07-2010, 04:19 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>why are people even caring about survivability being added to a guard when the current survivability is enough to live in any situation (unless you have no healers). if you're going to beef up surviviability. make it so it's available FULL TIME not just when the shield is on. so i can go full offensive with my guard and still keep ALL MY SAVES like the offensive tanks can. guard needs more damage, it needs to be fun again. stop with the hum drum survivability non-sense, NO PLATE TANK CLASS DIES.</blockquote>For one on test survivability is being nerfed across the board with the mit changes. Second the ONLY tank that can and needs to go full offensive is zerker. They have been fighting in offensive stance since like t5. They use shields just as much as guards to tank. Crusaders sword and board thier way to offensive and defensive builds and fight in defensive when needed.Brawlers NEED to be in defensive to tank anything.The truth is ALL tanks should get rolled when in offensive stance and ALL plate tanks should be required to use a sheild to tank. All tanks should also have a signifacant dps increase in offensive stances. But in defensive stances ALL tanks should put up healer quaility dps. The whole concept of making tanks into dps is broken.

steveatk

09-07-2010, 05:50 PM

Apologies for re-posting but it was requested and this is in fact the correct place for it. Feel free to delete my post in the Guardian forum if it's breaking some rule....I always run with Dirge + Coercer + Assassin and always have Trak shield buff running. I also have Rancorous Ire procs (+1 hate position proc).I can climb the hate list faster than anyone else which is awesome for memwipes but holding a mob when I have to go sword and board requires a ridiculous amount of effort if your raid doesn't suck.I tank most mobs, including hard modes in dual wield & offensive stance with shield macrod to any skill that's used to give my healers some room to breath and as soon as I'm stable again it's back to dual wield just so that I can keep the mob on me. Does any other plate tank have to do this? No, they do not.My one saving grace at the moment is that everytime I do lose agro it's usually only for a split second or two because of the snaps and the Rancorous Ire procs but frequently I am out of snaps and the procs don't fire which means the mob is facing the raid who are eating AOE's and wiping.How am I going to be able to play this way once the mitigation changes go in?I will have to stay defensive or at least keep my shield on - which means agro will be a major problem on every single fight. Which other fighter class has this problem because they had to equip their shield or go defensive in order to be able to mitigate damage?We need a significant improvement in our dps (preferable) or tps while using a shield and then I think we will be much closer to balanced.I for one will not be speccing into Shoulder the Burden. I have Trak shield (which isn't enough to fix agro problems while wearing a shield btw) and there is no-one in MT group to put that buff on anyway as the siphon doesn't stack with a transfer which leaves healers to siphon hate from.

Gungo

09-07-2010, 06:19 PM

fyi if the mit changes hit guards hard enough they are required to use shields in defensive to survive then expect EVERY fighter to be required to use defensive and sheilds to survive. This is not a guardian mitigation nerf this nerf hits ALL fighters and the ones with the least amount of mit will be hurt the most.

Yimway

09-07-2010, 06:30 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>fyi if the mit changes hit guards hard enough they are required to use shields in defensive to survive then expect EVERY fighter to be required to use defensive and sheilds to survive. This is not a guardian mitigation nerf this nerf hits ALL fighters and the ones with the least amount of mit will be hurt the most.</blockquote>Absolutely, our concern is, the class hasn't been given the TPS generation required to MT content in this stance, and nothing with this update is significantly impacting raid TPS.

steveatk

09-07-2010, 06:58 PM

I agree completely Gungo however this is the Guardian feedback thread and I'm just bringing up this very real concern.

Gungo

09-07-2010, 07:07 PM

While I think shoulder the burden should be the same EXACT buff as the trak shield or at least a raidwide version at 15% siphon. Personally I would say the trak sheild buff simply because that buff will help a heroic guard more then a single 15% siphon. I just dont see the issue you are claiming about guards having agro issues. so I wasnt really commenting on that. If the mitigation changes are released with 57b update I would like to see how everything goes before we make guardians into dps machines that also have by far the best survivability. Out of all the changes on test I have a feeling the mitigation changes are ultimately what will make guardians wanted in raids again. If other tanks become squishier people will look to guards as a means of stabalizing raids.

Rhita

09-07-2010, 08:12 PM

While I understand that Sentry Watch is being looked at and you understand it needs some work. I wanted to address Sustain, It also has a chance to kill us and could use an update to something worth casting. I also agree with the Iron Will changes could use a little more attention. While 36% snare reduction could be useful on a couple fights or even against the mystics Torpor ability. Its still rather weak when compared to crusaders immune to fear. Another change is the AA that enhances Sustain by granting the person with 620 to resists with 5 points spent. Not really worth it and doesnt really benefit anything.

steveatk

09-07-2010, 08:14 PM

Get your Guardian to tank a whole raid with a shield on the whole time, if you have a Guardian in your raid that is - seems to be rare these days.Is anyone testing Guardians in a raid situation? Is anyone interested in building a raid to do this?We are going to be worse off than we are already if we have to try to tank defensively with no real agro boosts. There is no point in having a defensive edge when the mob doesn't care about you while you are being defensive.I don't care about dps beyond dps check mobs, and every other fighter can frequently do more dps fully defensive with a shield than we can while fully offensive and dual wielding so I don't think it's too much to ask to give us a sizable increase - I would take a large TPS increase instead if dps is out of the question though. Just let me hold agro with a shield.I also have a question about Shoulder the Burden mechanics as I'm not sure. If I have 50% hate transfer from my Assassin + Coercer, does the siphon from this buff actually do anything? Does it count towards the transfer cap? I assume it does in some way since it doesn't stack - which would make the skill useless no matter who you put it on. I'm sure a knowledgable Paladin could answer this question.If it doesn't count towards the transfer cap then could we please test it as a raid member siphon rather than a group member siphon where it is currently useless for a main tank? That could actually fix our agro problems without turning us into "dps machines" and with minimal additional effort from the dev team to implement.

Shorcon

09-07-2010, 09:33 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>slippery wrote:</cite><blockquote>In regards to the mit buffs thing, I don't feel they are useless. They may not be of personal use, but that doesn't mean they aren't useful. The group one is good for helping your group take less damage from trauma ae's, which usually hit pretty hard. The single one that used to snare can give you 10% block chance with aa's, which is nice as well.</blockquote>While the group wide mit buff does offer some survivability on trauma AOEs, it offers very little directly to the guardian, and if it was changed to a damage reduction ability, it would offer the same survivability benefit to the group while also adding a benefit to the guardian. I also realize that you can place 5AA into the personal mitigation boost to gain 10 block chance...so the skill only has a benefit if you put 5AA into it, and the benefit you get out of it is an increase of about 1% avoidance somewhere around 50% of the time. This skill was meant to make you into a brick wall at the cost of your DPS, but with the current mechanics and loot in the game, it just doesn't do much of anything.</blockquote>I sit back and wonder sometimes. Really do. Your grp mit buff called Battle Cry is your lifeline. It's what seperates you from the rest. Keep in mind that if things roll the way they are on test we are all in trouble atm. I as a t9 fabled gaurdian full aa full master cannot cap my mit against a 90 mob. Thats with every possible point in mit aa and all defensive raid gear equiped(blue stat to mit). I even have 3 or 4 mit blue stat jewlery on .. Under both Battle Cry and Cry of the Warrior I cannot cap against a 90. What's gonna happen then when we go against a Physical damage mob like Illisaad? We are gonna get 2 shot on the knockback. Is this what you intended? I now pull 90x4 using both cooldowns consecutively. Giving my guardian an extra boost to my already solo capped 75% against a 90 mob. Am I missing something here? Are blue stat fixes going to push all tanks to around 68% Mit Solo? Whats the purpose of this if so? Are we going to be required 3 heals in all MT grps for every pull? The blue stat to mit might be broken. Can you please look into this xelgad?</blockquote>Take a look at when it was posted before you start to "sit back and wonder sometimes" battle cry does nothing for my personal mitigation on live, it does on test now, but not when that was posted. Also, battle cry doesn't separate guardians from the rest of anyone, both warriors have a group +mit boost as well as a personal +mit boost. Anyway, until he makes changes to the mitigation effects / mob damage he said he would be changing in the mitigation thread, its hard to know how they will effect raiding.</blockquote>You are stating that it doesnt bring you mit up against a 90 mob. You dont see the increase against a 98 mob because soe hasn't since the begining shown us what our mit is actually at against say a 98 mob I.E. Illisaad. It does help you .... your just not seeing a percent increase as that percent you are looking at is vs. a 90 mob. You need alot more mit vs. a 98.

Davngr1

09-08-2010, 02:15 AM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>why are people even caring about survivability being added to a guard when the current survivability is enough to live in any situation (unless you have no healers). if you're going to beef up surviviability. make it so it's available FULL TIME not just when the shield is on. so i can go full offensive with my guard and still keep ALL MY SAVES like the offensive tanks can. guard needs more damage, it needs to be fun again. stop with the hum drum survivability non-sense, NO PLATE TANK CLASS DIES.</blockquote>For one on test survivability is being nerfed across the board with the mit changes. Second the ONLY tank that can and needs to go full offensive is zerker. They have been fighting in offensive stance since like t5. They use shields just as much as guards to tank. Crusaders sword and board thier way to offensive and defensive builds and fight in defensive when needed.Brawlers NEED to be in defensive to tank anything.The truth is ALL tanks should get rolled when in offensive stance and ALL plate tanks should be required to use a sheild to tank. All tanks should also have a signifacant dps increase in offensive stances. But in defensive stances ALL tanks should put up healer quaility dps. The whole concept of making tanks into dps is broken.</blockquote> when zerker AA changed for the better back in fighter balance 1.0 EVERY(solo/group/raid) zerk benefited from the changes because the class needed survivability across the board. when monks got loving in RoK EVERY(solo.group,raid) monk felt the changes because the raid/group buff was awesome and their hate lock was stupid op'd. when SK finaly got their much needed changes in TSO EVERY(solo/group/raid) sk felt the changes because they finaly stoped trying to give the class redundant small lifetaps and silly hate hate siphons and did what was needed to be done. when paladin received their AA changes in first fighter balance and while piggy backing on the SK love EVERY paladin felt the changes because they needed the extra survivability and the extra damage didn't hurt. imo my bruiser has never had anything monumental given to him but this is mostly about plate tanks anyway. when guard got their mythical ability back in rok ONLY high end raiding guards benefited the rest were in no way, shape or form over powerd. when guard got nerfed back to DoF suck status in the fighter balance 1.1 for the most it was only felt by solo/group guards since raid guards has the gear to over come loosing the 8% uncontested avoidance and the 70+DA from STA line. it's only now that high end guards are starting to feel the pinch that other guards have felt since that first figher balance 1.1. all of the above is, in its entirety, true. so when i see dev's coming out with MORE USELESS survivability that will only mean jack squat in the end game raid scene, it frustrates me. it frustrates me because people keep making survivability this big deal AND it's not. this game will never go back to the day when other tanks needed two or three healers when guard could do with one or two at most. the game has evolved way past that. it no longer has to do with the tank classes it's the healrs that are too dam good now. easy as that a good healer won't even let a scout die while tanking a raid mob. so.. survivability is a nice utility. give my guard some single target dps so #1 i can have some fun in heroic instances #2 i dont have to spam deagros on my assassin when i have a guard tanking #3 because this game has always been and always will centered around dps the TPS is cool and all but screw this "guard can only get TPS crap". #4 lol at guards having the most survivability.. i don't see guards soloing godmode.

Gungo

09-08-2010, 02:52 AM

Just because you said it was entirely true doesn't make it so. The funny thing about your DOF suck status was guards were the best tank in DOF. Time to use an old line that has been constantly used on these boards. If you want to dps roll a scout class. Fighters are not a dps class.

Davngr1

09-08-2010, 03:45 AM

Boli32

09-08-2010, 05:37 AM

To be fair most tanks in DoF had a hard time.

aislynn00

09-08-2010, 05:50 AM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because you said it was entirely true doesn't make it so. The funny thing about your DOF suck status was guards were the best tank in DOF. Time to use an old line that has been constantly used on these boards. If you want to dps roll a scout class. Fighters are not a dps class. </blockquote>Seriously, Gungo, I respect you as a player who usually comes across as reasonable and doesn't try to misrepresent the facts as they are, but claiming that guardians were the best tanks in DoF is really out there.After the godmode guardian era of the original game, DoF was the low point in the history of the class; we were never weaker than during that expansion. It was around the time KoS was released that they changed what is now called Hunker Down to give the guardian a massive boost of mitigation (instead of Defense, which with DoF had been nerfed into oblivion) and added Plant (which back then was an unbreakable root and debuff that affected epics for the full duration), and with the advent of KoS, gave us the buckler spec, all of which together hailed the return of the guardian as one of the two best raid MT's (the other being the berserker). From the release of DoF and up to that point, though, the game was a nightmare for guardians, especially in the hate generation department.

aislynn00

09-08-2010, 05:58 AM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are stating that it doesnt bring you mit up against a 90 mob. You dont see the increase against a 98 mob because soe hasn't since the begining shown us what our mit is actually at against say a 98 mob I.E. Illisaad. It does help you .... your just not seeing a percent increase as that percent you are looking at is vs. a 90 mob. You need alot more mit vs. a 98.</blockquote>Based on my parses, it would appear that the mitigation cap vs a 98th level raid boss lies somewhere in the 14,500 - 14,700 mitigation interval. You would benefit somewhat from additional mitigation vs physical AE's which state that they are "harder than normal to resist", but vs auto-attacks, aforementioned figure is probably the cap vs most, if not all, 98th level raid mobs.

Seolta

09-08-2010, 09:37 AM

aislynn00

09-08-2010, 10:04 AM

<cite>Rhita@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I understand that Sentry Watch is being looked at and you understand it needs some work. I wanted to address Sustain, It also has a chance to kill us and could use an update to something worth casting.</blockquote>I second this. It would be easy to just remove the damage transferral component and leave the damage reduction as it is, rendering the buff useable on raids--as opposed to the status quo, where nobody in his right mind dares cast it.

aislynn00

09-08-2010, 10:23 AM

aislynn00

09-08-2010, 10:32 AM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Xelgad, can you please post the mechanics change thats out on test atm? With mit not being able to cap vs. a 90 mob we are seriously wondering what will balance this out. Is physical damaging from mobs going to be decreased? What gives?</blockquote>It isn't supposed to be balanced out. That is the whole point.Currently on live, most hard-mode raid bosses don't really hit a tank hard enough to warrant going into full defensive setup. Furthermore, it is possible for every plate tank to reach the mitigation cap.On test, with the mitigation nerf in place, nobody will be able to cap mitigation any longer, meaning guardians (and berserkers), given their short-term mitigation buffs and mitigation AA's, may have regained a tiny bit of an edge against crusaders. That doesn't solve the guardian vs berserker imbalance, of course, but it is a good start.

Goldburg

09-08-2010, 11:07 AM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>The truth is ALL tanks should get rolled when in offensive stance and ALL plate tanks should be required to use a sheild to tank. All tanks should also have a signifacant dps increase in offensive stances. But in defensive stances ALL tanks should put up healer quaility dps. The whole concept of making tanks into dps is broken.</blockquote>For the record Gungo does not speak for all Brawlers.If brawlers lose our current DPS we might as well delete the character because we bring nothing else to the table. We would have the lowest amount of threat of the tanks, not to mention we already have no support role for raids or groups and who wants a brawler for their DPS when they can get a real DPS class?As for the stance proposal, any brawler worth their salt at tanking is already in defensive stance.Lastly for the blanket nerf on avoidance, I personally don't see it as an issue especially with a new Xpac coming. Once the gear starts dropping from there we'll be back to max avoidance. This is more or less "throw the guardians a bone for a few months".To the comment about the DoF "suck status" for guardians, it was only fair. Guardians were the only main tank choice from launch until DoF, not to mention they also were pushing quite high on the dps parse.

Davngr1

09-08-2010, 11:42 AM

<cite>Goldburg wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The truth is ALL tanks should get rolled when in offensive stance and ALL plate tanks should be required to use a sheild to tank. All tanks should also have a signifacant dps increase in offensive stances. But in defensive stances ALL tanks should put up healer quaility dps. The whole concept of making tanks into dps is broken.</blockquote>For the record Gungo does not speak for all Brawlers.If brawlers lose our current DPS we might as well delete the character because we bring nothing else to the table. We would have the lowest amount of threat of the tanks, not to mention we already have no support role for raids or groups and who wants a brawler for their DPS when they can get a real DPS class?As for the stance proposal, any brawler worth their salt at tanking is already in defensive stance.Lastly for the blanket nerf on avoidance, I personally don't see it as an issue especially with a new Xpac coming. Once the gear starts dropping from there we'll be back to max avoidance. This is more or less "throw the guardians a bone for a few months".To the comment about the DoF "suck status" for guardians, it was only fair. Guardians were the only main tank choice from launch until DoF, not to mention they also were pushing quite high on the dps parse.</blockquote> i agree with what you posted as i also play a bruiser but please make sure you edit your quotes correctly. :p

vinere

09-08-2010, 12:48 PM

I wouldnt mind having an ability the mirrors jarring onslaught that a zerker has. Currently with decent reuse they have a blue ae 3 position increase with 2-3k base damage, thats on a 45-1min reuse. If they are the AE tank, then i think we should get an ability on the same reuse, with 2-3 position increase with maybe 4k base damage.

Shorcon

09-08-2010, 01:20 PM

Yimway

09-08-2010, 01:25 PM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I played a guard in DOF. They rocked. They out survived the only other option by leaps and bounds. Zerker. It is people like this that really head the dev's in the wrong direction.</blockquote>Honestly all discusion of previous expansions isn't really relevant.What works and doesn't work in current game or current test is what feedback needs to be focused on.My question is, does anyone believe the TPS is there on test to successfully raid tank in D stance behind a shield?

Zorbac

09-08-2010, 01:26 PM

still seeing conflicting hate mod/transfer caps. CAN we get some official word here? If i don't need all these +hate augs I would really like to know.

Shorcon

09-08-2010, 01:34 PM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Xelgad, can you please post the mechanics change thats out on test atm? With mit not being able to cap vs. a 90 mob we are seriously wondering what will balance this out. Is physical damaging from mobs going to be decreased? What gives?</blockquote>It isn't supposed to be balanced out. That is the whole point.Currently on live, most hard-mode raid bosses don't really hit a tank hard enough to warrant going into full defensive setup. Furthermore, it is possible for every plate tank to reach the mitigation cap.On test, with the mitigation nerf in place, nobody will be able to cap mitigation any longer, meaning guardians (and berserkers), given their short-term mitigation buffs and mitigation AA's, may have regained a tiny bit of an edge against crusaders. That doesn't solve the guardian vs berserker imbalance, of course, but it is a good start.</blockquote>With the mit changes on test right now we wont be able to come close to capping mit on 90% of the raid content in SF. Guardians will have a definite advantage but that advantage wont add up to anything because all tanks will be getting one shot. Unless of course there is a mob mechanic change nerfing mobs outgoing physical damage.

Shorcon

09-08-2010, 01:37 PM

<cite>Goldburg wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite>The truth is ALL tanks should get rolled when in offensive stance and ALL plate tanks should be required to use a sheild to tank. All tanks should also have a signifacant dps increase in offensive stances. But in defensive stances ALL tanks should put up healer quaility dps. The whole concept of making tanks into dps is broken.</blockquote>For the record Gungo does not speak for all Brawlers.If brawlers lose our current DPS we might as well delete the character because we bring nothing else to the table. We would have the lowest amount of threat of the tanks, not to mention we already have no support role for raids or groups and who wants a brawler for their DPS when they can get a real DPS class?As for the stance proposal, any brawler worth their salt at tanking is already in defensive stance.Lastly for the blanket nerf on avoidance, I personally don't see it as an issue especially with a new Xpac coming. Once the gear starts dropping from there we'll be back to max avoidance. This is more or less "throw the guardians a bone for a few months".To the comment about the DoF "suck status" for guardians, it was only fair. Guardians were the only main tank choice from launch until DoF, not to mention they also were pushing quite high on the dps parse.</blockquote>My parse shows plenty of reason for brawlers in raid. Just your avoidance on MT is a viable reason. From there the rest is icing on the cake.

Shorcon

09-08-2010, 01:40 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>I played a guard in DOF. They rocked. They out survived the only other option by leaps and bounds. Zerker. It is people like this that really head the dev's in the wrong direction.</blockquote>Honestly all discusion of previous expansions isn't really relevant.What works and doesn't work in current game or current test is what feedback needs to be focused on.My question is, does anyone believe the TPS is there on test to successfully raid tank in D stance behind a shield?</blockquote>I raid tank in Dstance now as a guardian. Don't understand those that dont. I can't get an on deck in game so how do you expect me to get a raid in test? BTW Atan were is your tag son?

Aule

09-08-2010, 02:17 PM

<cite>Takauri@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>I always run with Dirge + Coercer + Assassin and always have Trak shield buff running. I also have Rancorous Ire procs (+1 hate position proc).I can climb the hate list faster than anyone else which is awesome for memwipes but holding a mob when I have to go sword and board requires a ridiculous amount of effort if your raid doesn't suck.I would have to give the "faster than anyone else" title to bruiser for hatelist climbing, with 6 positional increasers (several on 40s or lower timers) and being able to spec for a reinforcement clone if desired.I tank most mobs, including hard modes in dual wield & offensive stance with shield macrod to any skill that's used to give my healers some room to breath and as soon as I'm stable again it's back to dual wield just so that I can keep the mob on me. Does any other plate tank have to do this? No, they do not.Yes plate tanks have had it easy for years. Compare to brawlers who can't leave defensive stance. At least you have the option to go into offensive. My one saving grace at the moment is that everytime I do lose agro it's usually only for a split second or two because of the snaps and the Rancorous Ire procs but frequently I am out of snaps and the procs don't fire which means the mob is facing the raid who are eating AOE's and wiping.How am I going to be able to play this way once the mitigation changes go in?I will have to stay defensive or at least keep my shield on - which means agro will be a major problem on every single fight. Which other fighter class has this problem because they had to equip their shield or go defensive in order to be able to mitigate damage?Welcome to what it's like to be a brawler, so to answer your question 1/3 of the other fighters already have this problem and have been dealing with it for awhile.We need a significant improvement in our dps (preferable) or tps while using a shield and then I think we will be much closer to balanced.I for one will not be speccing into Shoulder the Burden. I have Trak shield (which isn't enough to fix agro problems while wearing a shield btw) and there is no-one in MT group to put that buff on anyway as the siphon doesn't stack with a transfer which leaves healers to siphon hate from.Both your coercer and assassin that you "always run with" must really suck if there's no-one in MT group to put a hate siphon on. Based on your other statements of difficulty holding aggro, my recommendation is to recruit a new coercer and a new assassin, they're obviously not transferring enough hate to you. My coercer is in regular need of using deposition abilities in order not to rip aggro during raids, and our assassin does rip unless he gets a peaceful link.</blockquote>

Yimway

09-08-2010, 05:00 PM

<cite>Zorbac wrote:</cite><blockquote>still seeing conflicting hate mod/transfer caps. CAN we get some official word here? If i don't need all these +hate augs I would really like to know.</blockquote>It was officially answered in Timetravelings mechanics demystification thread that was stickied in the general forums but was mysteriously deleted after he was let go.The cap is and always has been 50 on hate mod. Those adorns and what not are wasted.

RafaelSmith

09-08-2010, 05:20 PM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Both your coercer and assassin that you "always run with" must really suck if there's no-one in MT group to put a hate siphon on. Based on your other statements of difficulty holding aggro, my recommendation is to recruit a new coercer and a new assassin, they're obviously not transferring enough hate to you. My coercer is in regular need of using deposition abilities in order not to rip aggro during raids, and our assassin does rip unless he gets a peaceful link.</blockquote></blockquote>Do hate xfer and hate siphon stack? It was my understanding that they don't so putting hate siphon on classes that already xfer hate wont work?

Gungo

09-08-2010, 08:28 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because you said it was entirely true doesn't make it so. The funny thing about your DOF suck status was guards were the best tank in DOF. Time to use an old line that has been constantly used on these boards. If you want to dps roll a scout class. Fighters are not a dps class. </blockquote> lol.. in dof guards sucked dude. but i understand why someone who didn't play a guard would think that. let me guess.. your guilds MT guardian was awsome ! amirite? lol yea lets balance the class around a fully fabled players with the best support in game! im not asking for scout dps, i'm asking for dps comperable to the the other plate tanks.</blockquote>Guards were the defacto tank in DOF. They were leaps and bounds better then any other fighter. I played a guardian in DOF as Airoliz was often not on during raids where I played him regularly and me and him use to play each other toons ALL the time. In fact i was server first killing a bunch of raid npcs on a guardian in DOF.What did you raid in DOF as a guardian. O' thats right you didnt. Also in DOF raid gear was barely an upgrade for most of the expansion because MASTERCRAFTED was the shiznit.Again as several other guardian have told you in this thread you DO NOT HAVE A CLUE.

Gungo

09-08-2010, 08:34 PM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because you said it was entirely true doesn't make it so. The funny thing about your DOF suck status was guards were the best tank in DOF. Time to use an old line that has been constantly used on these boards. If you want to dps roll a scout class. Fighters are not a dps class. </blockquote>Seriously, Gungo, I respect you as a player who usually comes across as reasonable and doesn't try to misrepresent the facts as they are, but claiming that guardians were the best tanks in DoF is really out there.After the godmode guardian era of the original game, DoF was the low point in the history of the class; we were never weaker than during that expansion. It was around the time KoS was released that they changed what is now called Hunker Down to give the guardian a massive boost of mitigation (instead of Defense, which with DoF had been nerfed into oblivion) and added Plant (which back then was an unbreakable root and debuff that affected epics for the full duration), and with the advent of KoS, gave us the buckler spec, all of which together hailed the return of the guardian as one of the two best raid MT's (the other being the berserker). From the release of DoF and up to that point, though, the game was a nightmare for guardians, especially in the hate generation department.</blockquote>In DOF all tanks were nerfed from LU13. Crusaders were absolutely garbage, this is the point where shadowknights became completely useless. Brawlers were the worst tank by FARRRRR. Zerkers were decent but every raid still used a guardian. Guardians were the best tank in game. To be fair there was about 2 weeks on DOF release when guardians sucked. Because the first 2 weeks of DOF is when they had NPCS auto atking for SPELL damage. In which mitigation was useless and all that mattered was avodiance and resists. his is the point were bruisers were tanking terrorantula and shadowknights were killing the x2 in living tombs. There was a huge uproar in the guard community and SOE ninja patched that crap in like the fastest hotfix I ever saw. After that is was ONLY guardians as the main tank, alot of craptastic gear and mastercrafted armour being the best for about 6 months until soe redid all the raid loot.

Davngr1

09-08-2010, 11:59 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because you said it was entirely true doesn't make it so. The funny thing about your DOF suck status was guards were the best tank in DOF. Time to use an old line that has been constantly used on these boards. If you want to dps roll a scout class. Fighters are not a dps class. </blockquote> lol.. in dof guards sucked dude. but i understand why someone who didn't play a guard would think that. let me guess.. your guilds MT guardian was awsome ! amirite? lol yea lets balance the class around a fully fabled players with the best support in game! im not asking for scout dps, i'm asking for dps comperable to the the other plate tanks.</blockquote>Guards were the defacto tank in DOF. They were leaps and bounds better then any other fighter. I played a guardian in DOF as Airoliz was often not on during raids where I played him regularly and me and him use to play each other toons ALL the time. In fact i was server first killing a bunch of raid npcs on a guardian in DOF.What did you raid in DOF as a guardian. O' thats right you didnt. Also in DOF raid gear was barely an upgrade for most of the expansion because MASTERCRAFTED was the shiznit.Again as several other guardian have told you in this thread you DO NOT HAVE A CLUE.</blockquote>so you think you understand the guardian class because you played your "friends" raid geared guardian? seriously why do you even post dumb crap like this man? btw point out the guardians in this thread that said "i don't have a clue"? because IF they argue against any of the FACTs i stated then they are as clueless as the bruiser who played his friends RAID GEARED guardian in DoF with RAID GEARED support. ROTF.. to think anyone who ONLY played a fully fabled character thinks they have a solid GRASP of the classes short comings. just Laugh Out Loud! anyway.. i bring up the past expansions and the progression or lack there off, of guardian to show that the survivability tank thing is what is broken with guardian. the second all the other tanks got guard "like" survivability, even if it's less it's enough for 99% of content so in all reality it's the SAME. FINE make group/raid survivability the guardians "utility" but guard should be able to put up at least equal damage on single target mobs. allow people to play guardians and have some fun FFS.. all you people come here and you say personal DPS don't matter? then give it to guard? after all, it dont matter right? nothing crazy just something that will bring them up to par with the other plate tanks on single targets.

Davngr1

09-09-2010, 12:01 AM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because you said it was entirely true doesn't make it so. The funny thing about your DOF suck status was guards were the best tank in DOF. Time to use an old line that has been constantly used on these boards. If you want to dps roll a scout class. Fighters are not a dps class. </blockquote>Seriously, Gungo, I respect you as a player who usually comes across as reasonable and doesn't try to misrepresent the facts as they are, but claiming that guardians were the best tanks in DoF is really out there.After the godmode guardian era of the original game, DoF was the low point in the history of the class; we were never weaker than during that expansion. It was around the time KoS was released that they changed what is now called Hunker Down to give the guardian a massive boost of mitigation (instead of Defense, which with DoF had been nerfed into oblivion) and added Plant (which back then was an unbreakable root and debuff that affected epics for the full duration), and with the advent of KoS, gave us the buckler spec, all of which together hailed the return of the guardian as one of the two best raid MT's (the other being the berserker). From the release of DoF and up to that point, though, the game was a nightmare for guardians, especially in the hate generation department.</blockquote>In DOF all tanks were nerfed from LU13. Crusaders were absolutely garbage, this is the point where shadowknights became completely useless. Brawlers were the worst tank by FARRRRR. Zerkers were decent but every raid still used a guardian. Guardians were the best tank in game. To be fair there was about 2 weeks on DOF release when guardians sucked. Because the first 2 weeks of DOF is when they had NPCS auto atking for SPELL damage. In which mitigation was useless and all that mattered was avodiance and resists. his is the point were bruisers were tanking terrorantula and shadowknights were killing the x2 in living tombs. There was a huge uproar in the guard community and SOE ninja patched that crap in like the fastest hotfix I ever saw. After that is was ONLY guardians as the main tank, alot of craptastic gear and mastercrafted armour being the best for about 6 months until soe redid all the raid loot.</blockquote> your recolection of DoF on your dead server is quite amusing. you must have had some terribad players playing the non-guard tanks.

aislynn00

09-09-2010, 08:14 AM

<cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite><blockquote>With the mit changes on test right now we wont be able to come close to capping mit on 90% of the raid content in SF. Guardians will have a definite advantage but that advantage wont add up to anything because all tanks will be getting one shot. Unless of course there is a mob mechanic change nerfing mobs outgoing physical damage.</blockquote>All tanks will get one-shotted? You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. With a templar and defiler and one of his two temporary mitigation buffs running, a raid-geared guardian is currently sitting around 12.5K mitigation on the test server. That means you will be taking 12% - 13% more damage than on the live servers with mitigation capped vs auto-attacks (14.7K mitigation).If your MT group shaman can't cope with an additional 13% incoming auto-attack DPS, then you have serious issues. Even a shadow knight sitting at 10.5K, who will take about 27% more damage than on the live servers with capped mitigation, should be able to stay alive, even though his HP will fluctuate more than the guardian's--as it should be.A paladin, due to innate 10% Damage Reduction, will take about the same auto-attack damage as a guardian. Add in the regenerating ward he adds to everyone in his group, himself included, and he will be taking less.

Terron

09-09-2010, 10:13 AM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards were the defacto tank in DOF. They were leaps and bounds better then any other fighter. I played a guardian in DOF</blockquote>There is more to the game than raiding.I started playing the week DoF was released and my first character was a guard, and I know the class was much worse than any other fighter at soloing. For months I was unable to kill blue solo mobs (with no down arrows). Since I could could not kill decent solo mobs I could not get much loot (I was not interested in just going out harvesting shinies to sell). So my gear was bad. That is bad as in at level 40 when I was first able to buy a full set of handcrafted armour it was a significant upgrade. I had got HQ weapons and the SBS. I could not find on tier hard metal rares (though I found several of each other type). Before I went to SS for the first time the only hard metal rare I had found above T1 was one T2 black iron.At about level 30 I was waiting for a group to form for RoV and I and a berserker were killing skeletons out side it. I would take one at a time because 2 would kill me. The zerker would gather about five mow them down and then kill a second group whilst I was still fighting the first one.I mostly stopped playing my guard around level 42 for several months, but SoE gradually improved things over several months and I started again.

Yimway

09-09-2010, 11:16 AM

Can we try to focus discussion to the revamp on test and current state?The allegory of guardians past isn't terribly relevant to the remaining tweaks needed for these changes to be successful.

Landiin

09-09-2010, 01:16 PM

D stance should add 20 to 30% proc rate to HTL being we are not getting a DPS boost.

Yimway

09-09-2010, 01:25 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>D stance should add 20 to 30% proc rate to HTL being we are not getting a DPS boost.</blockquote>Xelgad had already mentioned upping this proc chance in the class forum, did it not make it to the updates on test?

Gungo

09-09-2010, 01:32 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just because you said it was entirely true doesn't make it so. The funny thing about your DOF suck status was guards were the best tank in DOF. Time to use an old line that has been constantly used on these boards. If you want to dps roll a scout class. Fighters are not a dps class. </blockquote> lol.. in dof guards sucked dude. but i understand why someone who didn't play a guard would think that. let me guess.. your guilds MT guardian was awsome ! amirite? lol yea lets balance the class around a fully fabled players with the best support in game! im not asking for scout dps, i'm asking for dps comperable to the the other plate tanks.</blockquote>Guards were the defacto tank in DOF. They were leaps and bounds better then any other fighter. I played a guardian in DOF as Airoliz was often not on during raids where I played him regularly and me and him use to play each other toons ALL the time. In fact i was server first killing a bunch of raid npcs on a guardian in DOF.What did you raid in DOF as a guardian. O' thats right you didnt. Also in DOF raid gear was barely an upgrade for most of the expansion because MASTERCRAFTED was the shiznit.Again as several other guardian have told you in this thread you DO NOT HAVE A CLUE.</blockquote>so you think you understand the guardian class because you played your "friends" raid geared guardian? seriously why do you even post dumb crap like this man? btw point out the guardians in this thread that said "i don't have a clue"? because IF they argue against any of the FACTs i stated then they are as clueless as the bruiser who played his friends RAID GEARED guardian in DoF with RAID GEARED support. ROTF.. to think anyone who ONLY played a fully fabled character thinks they have a solid GRASP of the classes short comings. just Laugh Out Loud! anyway.. i bring up the past expansions and the progression or lack there off, of guardian to show that the survivability tank thing is what is broken with guardian. the second all the other tanks got guard "like" survivability, even if it's less it's enough for 99% of content so in all reality it's the SAME. FINE make group/raid survivability the guardians "utility" but guard should be able to put up at least equal damage on single target mobs. allow people to play guardians and have some fun FFS.. all you people come here and you say personal DPS don't matter? then give it to guard? after all, it dont matter right? nothing crazy just something that will bring them up to par with the other plate tanks on single targets.</blockquote>Pretty much I helped level him to the caps because we needed the guard at cap first and I tanked most content at the time on a guard. Which is more then what you have accomplished as a guard.Furthermore the best gear in dof for half the expansion was MASTERCRAFTED. Again you are commenting about stuff you do not have a clue about. Laugh all you want but last time I checked your gaurd wasn't even 90 yet. So you are commenting about stuff you honestly do not have a clue about.

Croba

09-09-2010, 02:31 PM

Probably the Easiest way to correct guardian dps/tps while using a shield would be to turn reversal into a buff that has a set proc rate while DPS, say 5 times per minute or something of that nature. Should add enough threat/DPS to making holdin aggro better. Rather then the once every 30 seconds. Just an Idea.

Landiin

09-09-2010, 02:37 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>D stance should add 20 to 30% proc rate to HTL being we are not getting a DPS boost.</blockquote>Xelgad had already mentioned upping this proc chance in the class forum, did it not make it to the updates on test?</blockquote>They replaced an AA in the TSO warrior line that added a % increase to the taunt amount of HTL and its counter part but not proc chance. That is is as far as I have seen.

Shareana

09-09-2010, 04:35 PM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=445320&post_id=5412519" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=44532...post_id=5412519</a> More constructive, less insulting please <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Davngr1

09-09-2010, 04:37 PM

<cite>Croba wrote:</cite><blockquote>Probably the Easiest way to correct guardian dps/tps while using a shield would be to turn reversal into a buff that has a set proc rate while DPS, say 5 times per minute or something of that nature. Should add enough threat/DPS to making holdin aggro better. Rather then the once every 30 seconds. Just an Idea.</blockquote> that will boost zerks too.. not that, that would be a bad thing but it's guard who needs more single target damage not zerks.

aias

09-09-2010, 05:19 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Croba wrote:</cite><blockquote>Probably the Easiest way to correct guardian dps/tps while using a shield would be to turn reversal into a buff that has a set proc rate while DPS, say 5 times per minute or something of that nature. Should add enough threat/DPS to making holdin aggro better. Rather then the once every 30 seconds. Just an Idea.</blockquote> that will boost zerks too.. not that, that would be a bad thing but it's guard who needs more single target damage not zerks.</blockquote>Really? You know this for a fact? Guardians red combat arts actually have higher top end damage.

steveatk

09-09-2010, 05:21 PM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Takauri@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>I always run with Dirge + Coercer + Assassin and always have Trak shield buff running. I also have Rancorous Ire procs (+1 hate position proc).assassin that you "always run with" must really suck if there's no-one in MT group to put a hate siphon on. Based on your other statements of difficulty holding aggro, my recommendation is to recruit a new coercer and a new assassin, they're obviously not transferring enough hate to you. My coercer is in regular need of using deposition abilities in order not to rip aggro during raids, and our assassin does rip unless he gets a peaceful link.</blockquote></blockquote>If you are going to pick apart a post then please at least be sure of the mechanics first so that you have a chance of being correct. For the record my Assassin and Coercer are both very good players and parse very well indeed but that doesn't change the fact that putting a 15% siphon on them doesn't do anything at all to my hate as far as I am aware (siphon and transfer stacking issues).I don't lose agro when in offensive and dual wielding, the issue I have - which will become a VERY big issue with every raiding Guardian if this goes live - is that when I go defensive or put my shield on for a prolonged period then I'm not tanking anymore because the mob lost interest and started chewing on the raid.So, to repeat my question, how are Guardians going to keep the mob interested in them when playing defensively (which we will have to with these mitigation changes) with such a poor level of DPS and TPS?Every other plate tank will be able to maintain agro whilst wearing a shield so in fact, even with all of these changes, we are going to be in a worse position than we are now.Has anyone tested a Guardian tanking a raid on test with the current build? We NEED someone to test agro whilst wearing a shield tanking for a decent raid force or we run the risk of being left with an unplayable class! I would do it but i'm in GMT time zone and the server is dead when I log on.

Shareana

09-09-2010, 05:38 PM

I would hate to close this thread as there is some good info in it, however.... if the bickering and insults keep happening, I will shut it down. Please get back on track and keep the posts constructive. Thank you!

Onorem

09-09-2010, 06:09 PM

People arguing on either side of the guardian quality in DoF both lose. Who cares about how things used to be? I hope brawlers get the attention they need. Guardians are not currently balanced on the plate tank front. I think brawlers lose out because they allowed plate tanks to get far too much avoidance.

Croba

09-09-2010, 06:15 PM

Just make brawlers the tanking scout. Problem solved.

LardLord

09-09-2010, 06:52 PM

Brawlers are working pretty well on Live currently...I'm not saying they couldn't use some tweaks, but it's not like the class needs a complete redesign...heh.

Jeal

09-09-2010, 07:33 PM

they're gonna be pretty weak when they can't hit the mit cap anymore.

LardLord

09-09-2010, 07:36 PM

Monks maybe, but Bruisers will be fine. Corydonn was tanking construct like a champ before he even got the Horaastaas cloak.

Davngr1

09-09-2010, 07:55 PM

if you don't play a guard you should [Removed for Content] out this thread, plain and simple. people who play guards and like the class for more then logging it in for ONE MOB once in a blue moon HAVE THE SAY SO HERE.. personal dps won't get ANY tank a raid spot if they can't tank FACT so give guards some personal dps so it's funner to play the class and so they can compete with other tanks on the heroic/solo front. NOT better but not horrible like they are now.

Seolta

09-09-2010, 08:27 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>if you don't play a guard you should [Removed for Content] out this thread, plain and simple. people who play guards and like the class for more then logging it in for ONE MOB once in a blue moon HAVE THE SAY SO HERE.. personal dps won't get ANY tank a raid spot if they can't tank FACT so give guards some personal dps so it's funner to play the class and so they can compete with other tanks on the heroic/solo front. NOT better but not horrible like they are now.</blockquote>The moment the devs decided to screw other tanks over to prop up guardians we earned the right to post here. (not even going to dwell on the fact that guardians are all over every thread for other tank class buffs or nerfs and always have been.)Give warriors increased TPSDon't nerf everyone's mit without a corresponding nerf to mob dps.I can see where this is all headed and I don't like it one bit.Don't create a situation where warriors are the only viable choice for MT. It's stupid to put the raid's best chance for success at the mercy of one or two people.As much as all these guardians would LOVE it, it just wouldn't be good for the game.

aislynn00

09-09-2010, 09:31 PM

Guardian Sphere, Hunker Down, and Defensive Minded are all currently toggleable buffs, which makes no sense, since none of them any longer have any penalties associated with them.Please make them all temporary buffs that don't toggle, just like Battle Cry (guardian version), Tower of Stone, Last Man Standing, etc.

Shareana

09-09-2010, 10:14 PM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=445320&post_id=5412755" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=44532...post_id=5412755</a> Let's be more constructive and less insulting please.

Landiin

09-09-2010, 10:14 PM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>The moment the devs decided to screw other tanks over to prop up guardians we earned the right to post here. (not even going to dwell on the fact that guardians are all over every thread for other tank class buffs or nerfs and always have been.)Give warriors increased TPSDon't nerf everyone's mit without a corresponding nerf to mob dps.I can see where this is all headed and I don't like it one bit.Don't create a situation where warriors are the only viable choice for MT. It's stupid to put the raid's best chance for success at the mercy of one or two people.As much as all these guardians would LOVE it, it just wouldn't be good for the game.</blockquote>Cry me a river. The mit chage was a bug that got fixed plus every one and their dogs was reaching mit cap. The crit fix hurts guards just as much as it hurts the other tanks. The heal nerf didn't even effect your class and didn't hurt Pally's on the raid level. Don't come here QQing because your might lose your easy mode. If you have suggestion to improve the subject matter or something of relevance then sure post away but don't come here QQing about how guards made you class get nerfed. Your class(crusaders) rightfully so QQ all over the place before TSO, so really if guards are posting all over the place, they are just following your lead.

aias

09-09-2010, 10:22 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>if you don't play a guard you should [Removed for Content] out this thread, plain and simple. people who play guards and like the class for more then logging it in for ONE MOB once in a blue moon HAVE THE SAY SO HERE.. personal dps won't get ANY tank a raid spot if they can't tank FACT so give guards some personal dps so it's funner to play the class and so they can compete with other tanks on the heroic/solo front. NOT better but not horrible like they are now.</blockquote>The moment the devs decided to screw other tanks over to prop up guardians we earned the right to post here. (not even going to dwell on the fact that guardians are all over every thread for other tank class buffs or nerfs and always have been.)Give warriors increased TPSDon't nerf everyone's mit without a corresponding nerf to mob dps.I can see where this is all headed and I don't like it one bit.Don't create a situation where warriors are the only viable choice for MT. It's stupid to put the raid's best chance for success at the mercy of one or two people.As much as all these guardians would LOVE it, it just wouldn't be good for the game.</blockquote> did guardians ask for that unneeded nerf? NO did that nerf do anything to make my gaurd funner or more desirable in raids? NO did all the crying the other tanks do on the forums about a hand full of overpowered MYTHICAL guards BREAK the class as a whole? YES if you dont' play a guard, you indeed have no place on this thread. all the cry babys playing other tanks in this game all ready got the guard survivability they wanted AND they're all tanking the same mobs guards are. NOW it's time to give guards the "fun factor" they sacrificed for some many years. YES i said it! i want to play my guard and have as much fun as i do when i play my sk of my bruiser, enough with these reetarded double standards. </blockquote>What about your case where it appears you do play a guard yet have no idea what your talking about and sound borderline hysterical. I think you would also be a good candidate to "[Removed for Content]".

Undorett

09-10-2010, 02:23 AM

<cite>Shareana wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would hate to close this thread as there is some good info in it, however.... if the bickering and insults keep happening, I will shut it down. Please get back on track and keep the posts constructive. Thank you!</blockquote>This thread is about the guardian changes on test and things that go along with the guardian revamp. Shutting the thread down does nothing to help provide feedback on the subject, it just serves to stunt idea generation and our ability to give feedback on those changes. If you have a problem with people's posts in this thread, delete them, don't lock the thread.In the same breath I will say, it was pretty evident from Xelgad's post earlier in this thread that what is on test right now is what is going live whether we like it or not, and whether it serves to help the guardian community or not. Overall the changes that are coming with this update that pertain to only guardians will help us in some small way, which is the only way Xelgad is willing to balance our class right now. I think the hate line is lame, and unimaginative, it doesn't serve to really increase our hate generation in meaningful ways, but we worked with the changes that were made. Half of the changes many of the guardians will never use and were wastes of time. Some of them like the + health and change to Sphere were great changes, but ultimately we will still be lacking.The offhand weapon changes and mitigation changes will help the zerker class just as much if not more than the guardian class. Guardians are being blamed for Xelgad's "bug" fix on mitigation because we asked to have our mitigation buffs changed to damage reduction or something of some use. The fact is he has been looking at this change for awhile now and it likely made sense to just do it when the guardian changes were on the table. I don't think many guardians are in favor of losing there mit any more than the rest of the classes are. I know the day the mit change goes live, I as a guardian become more squishy. Really if you want to talk about the mitigation changes, I don't understand why you are not talking about them in the mitigation thread created by Xelgad, rather than the guardian thread he likely isn't reading anymore as he is done with the changes until he sees how they turn out on live.And why are we talking about DOF? Did you guys know that necros were the bomb in EOF?

Shareana

09-10-2010, 02:37 AM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=445320&post_id=5412843" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=44532...post_id=5412843</a> Debating is one thing that is encouraged on the forums. Insults and avoidance of the filter are NOT. Thank you!

Davngr1

09-10-2010, 03:22 AM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote>.And why are we talking about DOF?</blockquote> for the record. i mentioned DoF in as a passing statement about a low point of the class. i never intended for the trolls to jump all over it like white on rice. here's the quote: <cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote> when guard got their mythical ability back in rok ONLY high end raiding guards benefited the rest were in no way, shape or form over powerd. when guard got nerfed back to DoF suck status in the fighter balance 1.1 for the most it was only felt by solo/group guards since raid guards has the gear to over come loosing the 8% uncontested avoidance and the 70+DA from STA line. </blockquote>

Shareana

09-10-2010, 07:08 AM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shareana wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would hate to close this thread as there is some good info in it, however.... if the bickering and insults keep happening, I will shut it down. Please get back on track and keep the posts constructive. Thank you!</blockquote>This thread is about the guardian changes on test and things that go along with the guardian revamp. Shutting the thread down does nothing to help provide feedback on the subject, it just serves to stunt idea generation and our ability to give feedback on those changes. If you have a problem with people's posts in this thread, delete them, don't lock the thread.In the same breath I will say, it was pretty evident from Xelgad's post earlier in this thread that what is on test right now is what is going live whether we like it or not, and whether it serves to help the guardian community or not. Overall the changes that are coming with this update that pertain to only guardians will help us in some small way, which is the only way Xelgad is willing to balance our class right now. I think the hate line is lame, and unimaginative, it doesn't serve to really increase our hate generation in meaningful ways, but we worked with the changes that were made. Half of the changes many of the guardians will never use and were wastes of time. Some of them like the + health and change to Sphere were great changes, but ultimately we will still be lacking.The offhand weapon changes and mitigation changes will help the zerker class just as much if not more than the guardian class. Guardians are being blamed for Xelgad's "bug" fix on mitigation because we asked to have our mitigation buffs changed to damage reduction or something of some use. The fact is he has been looking at this change for awhile now and it likely made sense to just do it when the guardian changes were on the table. I don't think many guardians are in favor of losing there mit any more than the rest of the classes are. I know the day the mit change goes live, I as a guardian become more squishy. Really if you want to talk about the mitigation changes, I don't understand why you are not talking about them in the mitigation thread created by Xelgad, rather than the guardian thread he likely isn't reading anymore as he is done with the changes until he sees how they turn out on live.And why are we talking about DOF? Did you guys know that necros were the bomb in EOF?</blockquote>I would LOVE to keep this thread open as it is a discussion in testing feedback. But if the personal bickering and insults do not stop, then I will have no choice in it. Once again, please keep it constructive!

steveatk

09-10-2010, 07:22 AM

Can we please stop this silly bickering and get back to the point of the thread?What is happening with Guardian agro whilst a shield is equipped? Are there any plans to look at this?

Soul_Dreamer

09-10-2010, 07:55 AM

<cite>Takauri@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can we please stop this silly bickering and get back to the point of the thread?What is happening with Guardian agro whilst a shield is equipped? Are there any plans to look at this?</blockquote>Seconded because with the mit changes we're going to have a shield equipped more often.Zerkers have the option to not quite as often because of adrenaline and it's 50% damage reduction 50% of the time, Crusaders get more DPS with a shield innately through AA. Are Guardians going to get some benefit similar. Add to this scouts will not be doing more DPS due to duel wield changes....Small mythical change? Stoneskin damage to hate for example? Reduction in the recast time of Reversal to 10 seconds from 30?

Seolta

09-10-2010, 09:53 AM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Takauri@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can we please stop this silly bickering and get back to the point of the thread?What is happening with Guardian agro whilst a shield is equipped? Are there any plans to look at this?</blockquote>Seconded because with the mit changes we're going to have a shield equipped more often.Zerkers have the option to not quite as often because of adrenaline and it's 50% damage reduction 50% of the time, Crusaders get more DPS with a shield innately through AA. Are Guardians going to get some benefit similar. Add to this scouts will not be doing more DPS due to duel wield changes....Small mythical change? Stoneskin damage to hate for example? Reduction in the recast time of Reversal to 10 seconds from 30?</blockquote>Crusaders are basically stuck with sword+board once the new mit nerf goes live, not to mention the fact that there is STILL a 2sec delay between switching 2h for 1h and equipping the shield which will probably never get fixed. pIf warriors get a sword+board offensive buff, then crusaders should get either a defensive boost added to Knight's Stance(our sword+board AA ability) or a buff to the existing weapon dmg bonus on it equal to whatever the warriors get just to keep things honest.p.s. davngr1, You must never look at Atan's posts. As long as he and those like him are kind enough to share their feedback with the other tank classes I think it only fair that we share our constructive input with you guys as well.

aislynn00

09-10-2010, 10:35 AM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>If warriors get a sword+board offensive buff, then crusaders should get either a defensive boost added to Knight's Stance(our sword+board AA ability) or a buff to the existing weapon dmg bonus on it equal to whatever the warriors get just to keep things honest.</blockquote>I'm afraid your logic is seriously flawed: it only holds true if a state of balance already existed between guardians and crusaders, which manifestly isn't the case. Hence, any changes should either weaken crusaders or strengthen guardians, not maintain the status quo.Personally, I think crusaders should lose Knight's Stance entirely and instead get a new AA which boosts two-handed weapon damage by 15%.Meanwhile, guardians should get Knight's Stance, thus reinforcing the notion of guardians as the defensive tank, while at the same time helping us with hate generation while wielding a shield.

Wasuna

09-10-2010, 11:28 AM

Soul_Dreamer

09-10-2010, 11:53 AM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Takauri@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can we please stop this silly bickering and get back to the point of the thread?What is happening with Guardian agro whilst a shield is equipped? Are there any plans to look at this?</blockquote>Seconded because with the mit changes we're going to have a shield equipped more often.Zerkers have the option to not quite as often because of adrenaline and it's 50% damage reduction 50% of the time, Crusaders get more DPS with a shield innately through AA. Are Guardians going to get some benefit similar. Add to this scouts will not be doing more DPS due to duel wield changes....Small mythical change? Stoneskin damage to hate for example? Reduction in the recast time of Reversal to 10 seconds from 30?</blockquote>Crusaders are basically stuck with sword+board once the new mit nerf goes live, not to mention the fact that there is STILL a 2sec delay between switching 2h for 1h and equipping the shield which will probably never get fixed. pIf warriors get a sword+board offensive buff, then crusaders should get either a defensive boost added to Knight's Stance(our sword+board AA ability) or a buff to the existing weapon dmg bonus on it equal to whatever the warriors get just to keep things honest.p.s. davngr1, You must never look at Atan's posts. As long as he and those like him are kind enough to share their feedback with the other tank classes I think it only fair that we share our constructive input with you guys as well. </blockquote>Guardian hate is the lowest of all plate tanks and goes through the floor if we have to go into sword+board.Crusaders don't loose as much hate due to more damage from procs/abilities and less from auto attack.Zerkers don't loose as much as often due to being able to stay in duel weild in scenarios that Guardians can't due to Adrenaline (which also gives hate while active)Exactly why do Crusaders need buffing even more just to bring Guardian hate up in line?Hell the Hate of a Guardian isn't even close to that of Crusaders when the Guardian is duel weilding and the Crusaders are using Sword + Board.Myself and our OT (SK) can be parsing similar amounts (I'm usually about 20% below him) with me duel weild and with a Coercer/Dirge/Assassin all buffing my hate. He can easily rip agro unless he holds back and that's with a sword/board and a group of Illy/Dirge/Swash (with hate buffs off). Same deal with our old Paladin, Guardians need more hate, we're the defensive tank but that doesn't mean we shouldn't hold hate equally to other tanks single target.Other tanks have the DPS/AOE abilities we don't so we need to at least be equal in ST hate, for the small amount of survivability we have over other tanks we sacrifice DPS/AOE Hate/AOE Snaps/Utility, Keeping ST hate in that list is a joke when we're the bottom of the pile on so many things.

Undorett

09-10-2010, 12:07 PM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>not to mention the fact that there is STILL a 2sec delay between switching 2h for 1h and equipping the shield which will probably never get fixed. p</blockquote>In a sidebar at Fan Faire Xelgad said a fix for this would go live with the 2h revamp, but must have forgotten about it. This is just a stupid mechanics carry over from when you could remove any item during battle instead of just your main/off hands and ranged. They added the 2s delay because people had macros to remove all of their gear just before they died so that their gear took no damage, then they changed it so that anything you have had equipped in the past 2 minutes takes damage anyway.<div><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Other tanks have the DPS/AOE abilities we don't so we need to at least be equal in ST hate, for the small amount of survivability we have over other tanks we sacrifice DPS/AOE Hate/AOE Snaps/Utility, Keeping ST hate in that list is a joke when we're the bottom of the pile on so many things.<div></div></blockquote></div>I still fail to see the survivability edge we have over other tanks. Tower of stone is a half decent ability, but it has limited usefulness due to the cast time, Block is kinda cool until you figure out that mobs can strikethrough it constantly, same thing can be said of Dragoon's Reflexes yay for dying to a strikethrough hit when you are supposed to be invulnerable, the new LMS is going to be great with the exception of his extremely long timer, now that our death save doesn't kill us life is a little better, but it still isn't a maintained buff. Yeah we have decent defensive abilities, but there are much better ones out there...2 proc death save that is on until it fires or you cancel it, adrenaline which not only reduces the incoming physical damage but also magical damage by 50% for 50% of the time. Who knows really, maybe once this huge mitigation nerf hits it will be just like everyone thinks, guards will be at some huge advantage because we have the same mitigation buffs zerkers do.

Soul_Dreamer

09-10-2010, 12:42 PM

<cite>Undorett wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>not to mention the fact that there is STILL a 2sec delay between switching 2h for 1h and equipping the shield which will probably never get fixed. p</blockquote>In a sidebar at Fan Faire Xelgad said a fix for this would go live with the 2h revamp, but must have forgotten about it. This is just a stupid mechanics carry over from when you could remove any item during battle instead of just your main/off hands and ranged. They added the 2s delay because people had macros to remove all of their gear just before they died so that their gear took no damage, then they changed it so that anything you have had equipped in the past 2 minutes takes damage anyway.<div><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Other tanks have the DPS/AOE abilities we don't so we need to at least be equal in ST hate, for the small amount of survivability we have over other tanks we sacrifice DPS/AOE Hate/AOE Snaps/Utility, Keeping ST hate in that list is a joke when we're the bottom of the pile on so many things.<div></div></blockquote></div>I still fail to see the survivability edge we have over other tanks. Tower of stone is a half decent ability, but it has limited usefulness due to the cast time, Block is kinda cool until you figure out that mobs can strikethrough it constantly, same thing can be said of Dragoon's Reflexes yay for dying to a strikethrough hit when you are supposed to be invulnerable, the new LMS is going to be great with the exception of his extremely long timer, now that our death save doesn't kill us life is a little better, but it still isn't a maintained buff. Yeah we have decent defensive abilities, but there are much better ones out there...2 proc death save that is on until it fires or you cancel it, adrenaline which not only reduces the incoming physical damage but also magical damage by 50% for 50% of the time. Who knows really, maybe once this huge mitigation nerf hits it will be just like everyone thinks, guards will be at some huge advantage because we have the same mitigation buffs zerkers do.</blockquote>And yet Zerkers will still take less damage due to Adrenaline, will keep all their AOE tools including the new offhand flurry and DA with 100% auto attack. 25% inc damage = hate from Mythical, extra hate from inc damage on Adrenaline..I'm really failing to see why we can't have some more hate when defensive when our sister class has all we have and more.We're the "Defensive tank" traditionally shields where as much of a weapon as a sword is in both gladitorial combat and shield walls in large scale combat.The bottom of the shield boss would often be sharpened so you could use it to smash down onto an opponent and the shield was used offensively to open up space for attack with the main weapon.As the "Defensive tank" we should gain something innate when using a shield.Hateful Assault (Useless Guardian AA for an ability I never use since it LOWERS hate due to postponing auto attack swings)One of the below changes maybe (just throwing ideas).On a successful Block the next attack will be increased by 3% (up to 15%).On a successful attack has a 30% chance to cast Shield Slam - The Guardian strikes with his shield temporarily disorienting the opponent and causing damage. - 200 Damage per point and 1 second Stifle per point up to 1k damage and 5 seconds stifle. - IF shield equipped.On a successful Stoneskin 5% of damage received is added as threat (up to 25%).New CA - Shield AssaultThe Guardian uses his shield to batter the enemies defenses so his next successful attack hits substntially harder. - 500 damage (per point) - 5% base increase to next combat art used after Shield Assault (per point). - IF shield equipped. - 20 second recast.

Brildean

09-10-2010, 12:59 PM

I dont think xelgad sees how underpowered guardian myth is compared to our brother. Riposte immunity, so decreases damage per second to us by what 70.. a proc that makes immune to stifle stun root, blah blah i cna't remember the other 2. The favorite damage reduction that is only up half the time. Since Zerkers get 100% ae auto.. why not give us 10%-20% flurry on our myth. So that when we are shield and board we are king of single target dps among the tanks.. and when we are dwing we are still kings.. currently right now once the offhand aoe auto goes through to live there will be no reason to have a guard with a zerker able to do 100k+ from ae-auto. and still pumping out more hate more dps on single targets than a guard could ever dream of.

Yimway

09-10-2010, 01:02 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm really failing to see why we can't have some more hate when defensive when our sister class has all we have and more.On a successful Block the next attack will be increased by 3% (up to 15%).On a successful attack has a 30% chance to cast Shield Slam - The Guardian strikes with his shield temporarily disorienting the opponent and causing damage. - 200 Damage per point and 1 second Stifle per point up to 1k damage and 5 seconds stifle. - IF shield equipped.On a successful Stoneskin 5% of damage received is added as threat (up to 25%).New CA - Shield AssaultThe Guardian uses his shield to batter the enemies defenses so his next successful attack hits substntially harder. - 500 damage (per point) - 5% base increase to next combat art used after Shield Assault (per point). - IF shield equipped. - 20 second recast.</blockquote>+1These are workable ideas, others might be on successful block , following swing will not miss / 100% strikethru chance.My primary concern with this revamp at this point is TPS generation locked in D-stance behind a board. I rarely am afforded this luxury on live as if DPS is going all out, we lack self generation to sustain aggro.Its been made clear we wont be given dps abilities on par with other plate classes. That being the case, something needs to be done about hate generation. And for the record, giving us amends is a cheap cop-out from actually fixing what is broken.Xelgad, I want active abilities that generate TPS. Too much of aggro generation is already passively done. I AFK tanked in eq1 cause it was far too passive. I really want generating TPS on my tank to be about active abilities and not passive things like amends, reactive procs, etc. I would hope you would understand how being passively overloaded marginalizes player skill and makes for something not challenging enough to be engaging long term.I do feel strongly that you and your predecessors have over relied on passive TPS generation, and personally it feels like taking the easy road and not addressing the real problems.

Davngr1

09-10-2010, 01:53 PM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Takauri@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can we please stop this silly bickering and get back to the point of the thread?What is happening with Guardian agro whilst a shield is equipped? Are there any plans to look at this?</blockquote>Seconded because with the mit changes we're going to have a shield equipped more often.Zerkers have the option to not quite as often because of adrenaline and it's 50% damage reduction 50% of the time, Crusaders get more DPS with a shield innately through AA. Are Guardians going to get some benefit similar. Add to this scouts will not be doing more DPS due to duel wield changes....Small mythical change? Stoneskin damage to hate for example? Reduction in the recast time of Reversal to 10 seconds from 30?</blockquote>Crusaders are basically stuck with sword+board once the new mit nerf goes live, not to mention the fact that there is STILL a 2sec delay between switching 2h for 1h and equipping the shield which will probably never get fixed. pIf warriors get a sword+board offensive buff, then crusaders should get either a defensive boost added to Knight's Stance(our sword+board AA ability) or a buff to the existing weapon dmg bonus on it equal to whatever the warriors get just to keep things honest.p.s. davngr1, You must never look at Atan's posts. As long as he and those like him are kind enough to share their feedback with the other tank classes I think it only fair that we share our constructive input with you guys as well. </blockquote> i just want my guard to be fun to play again. as of now i pretty much only play my sk and bruiser because the guard does not offer "fun" game play and brings very little to the group. i do agree that knights stance bonus should carry over into 2H's(mainly because of the 1.30 crusader multiplier) but to say you need a defensive boost because guardians get an offensive boost makes no sense. ( it makes no sense because offensive tanks all ready recived their defensive boost but guard never recived their offensive boost, if anything fighter 1.1 revamp was a damage nerf for guardian) guardian will never do for a group/raid what a well played sk can even with the current changes and a dps boost. give guard some single target aggression generation via damage not TPS. TPS does nothing for the group/solo guard AND is no different then TPS in a raid setting. why devs feel they can still short hand this class EVEN after giving away all it's toys to everyone is beyond me.

Landiin

09-10-2010, 02:29 PM

Reversal needs bock added as one of the tricker chance. And before someone says it is, that is blocked that is a trigger. As in you was blocked. I am talking about US blocking inc hits. I did a test on this last nite and in a 5 min fight my avoidance report shows I avoided 85 strikes but yet reversal only fired 11 times. If block was one of the triggers this number would of been higher I believe as I blocked more then anything else. I tested by just letting the mob beat on me untill I reposed it to death. I did it this b/c I only wanted to see the amount it would trigger on inc dmg only. Adding block to reversal and make HTL proc 5000-7000 base with an aa for proc chance inc would go along way to help us while using a shield. Being you don't want to give us more DPS while sward and board.*edit* Soul_Dreame Idea sounds sexy too, I just read it.

Kordran

09-10-2010, 02:47 PM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally, I think crusaders should lose Knight's Stance entirely and instead get a new AA which boosts two-handed weapon damage by 15%.Meanwhile, guardians should get Knight's Stance, thus reinforcing the notion of guardians as the defensive tank, while at the same time helping us with hate generation while wielding a shield.</blockquote>Except that Paladins, who are Crusaders, are defensive tanks. In the general scheme of things, it was Guardians and Paladins who were to be the defensive plate tanks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights being the offensive plate tanks.Give Guardians all of the threat generation tools they need to be on par with Crusaders and Berserkers. Once and for all, SOE needs to dump this idea of single-target vs. multi-target as a differentiation and give Guards equal ability (with the same level of difficulty) to handle all types of content. Not superior. Equal. And some of you need to stop with this notion that the best way to make Guardians desirable is to nerf Crusaders into the ground.I know there's some of you who think that you "deserve" to be back at the top of the tanking food chain, but that's not balance. That's just continuing the cycle of stupidity from expanstion to expansion, and eventually you'll find yourself recycled back to the bottom of the heap.Whatever SOE does, they need to find a way to make Warriors and Crusaders functionally equivalent, using different mechanics unique to the playstyle of each of those classes. And that should be done with measured buffs to the Guardian, not wide-ranging nerfs to everyone else.The last thing I'll say is that I hope that when they do this, they do it slowly. If they're looking to improve the class, the worst thing they could do is throw out a whole bunch of changes at once and declare things to be "finished". And I'm not talking about Test here, and I'm not talking about making Guardians wait between GUs. Put one or two of these changes on Test, after a week or so to make sure it's working correctly, push it to Live. Get feedback from players on Live for a couple of weeks. Put another couple of changes on Test, and then push them Live and so on. If they did this incrementally, then if something gets out of whack, it's much easier to address than to have to go back and attempt to rebalance the 10 changes they've made all at once. It would be a slower process, but I suspect that when it was done (around the time the next GU is released), everyone would be happier with the end result.

Soul_Dreamer

09-10-2010, 02:47 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Reversal needs bock added as one of the tricker chance. And before someone says it is, that is blocked that is a trigger. As in you was blocked. I am talking about US blocking inc hits. I did a test on this last nite and in a 5 min fight my avoidance report shows I avoided 85 strikes but yet reversal only fired 11 times. If block was one of the triggers this number would of been higher I believe as I blocked more then anything else. I tested by just letting the mob beat on me untill I reposed it to death. I did it this b/c I only wanted to see the amount it would trigger on inc dmg only. Adding block to reversal and make HTL proc 5000-7000 base with an aa for proc chance inc would go along way to help us while using a shield. Being you don't want to give us more DPS while sward and board.*edit* Soul_Dreame Idea sounds sexy too, I just read it.</blockquote>it only procs once every 30 seconds, so your fight was just over 5 mins, must have been to get 11 procs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />This is useless without reducing the duration between procs I'm afraid <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Brildean

09-10-2010, 02:54 PM

Correct.. it needs to have a recast of 5 seconds or soemthin but that not only buffs us it buffs zerkers.

bishoph

09-10-2010, 03:09 PM

One factor, that has been left out. Weapon speed, can make a huge difference in threat gen. I know there are many camps, for thoughts on it. In most games, tanks go for quick weapons, to allow more hits fasters. Plus a miss chain of three or four hits do not hurt as much. Though you have people who tank with the slow weapons, for the huge threat numbers. The slower the weapon speed, the more burst threat you can get. Since Myth's, the speeds for the plate tanks have been 3.0 and 6.0. Most Warrior's, still are using a 3.0 or a 4.0 that I have seen. While most Crusader's are sticking with the 6.0 if they can. How the weapon speed works, for and agaisnt the Guard. With Reinforcement, the faster weapons will give us more hate, since we swing more. Though over the long cource of a fight, we can gen more hate with a 6.0 weapon. Dose this mean we go back to the old ToS days, where we do a weapon switch when we hit Rein, to gain faster hate. Then swap back to a slower hard hitting weapon? This is part of the issues, with weapon balance for 1h and 2h. No 1h weapon should have a slower swing speed than 4 secs (maybe even 3 secs) in my opinion. No two handed weapon should swing faster then 5 secs. Dose there need to be one super weapon that all tanks want, no. There should be a choice of weapons that the tanks can use. One that is more Def, one that is more Off, and a few in the middle. The swing speed should be brought into simular lines though. Any CA that dose all physical damage should be instant, or a 1 second set up time for an AE. Any spell that is an AE, should have a longer cast time. Even if it dose physical and magic damage, it should have a small cast time.I would be really happy with an AA, that would add 10% of the damage done on CA's as a Trauma bleed effect. Even if it is 10% of the base damage on a hit. This would help our damage and threat with out going into the OP stage when we DW. Like they say in the Ebon Hold, when you strike your opponent, twist your hand to cause more damage. Put something like this at the end of the agression line. Threat transfers and hote mod, are a quick and easy bandaid, but not a real fix. We need real fixes to the issues of our balance. Some Driges are realy good, with their songs. I have done a few pugs, witch are near impossible to find, where the Dirge asked me, what songs I needed. Well it is not a raid, so do not need parry, and hate, lets see how the group is working/acting. Plus it is hard to rely on other classes for hate, since if we are pugging a lot (or even in guild with people playing alts), the levels we get change with AA specs and if they have masters, experts or have not even upgraded the ability because they are cheap. As a tank I feel, I should not have to rely on anyone for my hate gain. I really should not have to rely on any person to do my job, out side of getting heals and cures. Snap agro, should never fail. Traget locks, should never fail. If these are tools, that the Dev's feel we need, then they should make them always work. The new target lock on plant, dose not always work, tested it in the contested hole with a healer. Would have him pull a few groups now and then. I would say over 95% of the time it worded, but very rarely it would not. What is the main differance between ST and AE target tanks. The AE tanks, get to use all their tools on a ST mob. While a ST tank, can not use most of his tools on AE mobs. This is part of the balance issues, in the game right now. What is the fix, with out making the ST tanks over powered? They need CA's and abilitys that hit that one mob really hard. They should have the best ST CA's in game. Witch as a guard, we are not even close to being average with our ST CA's. A ST target tanks CA's should hit for 10. Then the AE tanks ST CA's should hit for 5 to 7. This still allows them, to hold a mob, and they still have their AE tools, to do the job. I know some people might say, but they can not use their AE's in all fights, do to CC. Yes that is correct, but there are only a hand full of fights where CC is even used anymore. Then most of the time the tank will yell at the person who did the CC. If a ST tank can average 10,000 DPS on a single mob, then an AE tank should be about 9,000 DPS when using all of their AE tools. That is the fix right there. Not, it is a single mob fight and the ST tank is doing 10,000 DPS while the AE tank is putting out 15,000 or more DPS. Hate gained, by reactive abilitys, do not work as well as people think. With all the stuns, stiffles, blocks, parrys, misses and what ever else pops in a fight. If we as Guards are supposted to be the Defensive, Single target tanks, then we should have the best tools for that job. The way is kind of looks now is. Defensive tanks, Guard is ST, Paladin is AE. Offensive tanks Brez and SK are both AE. Advoidance tanks, Brus and Monks, with the monks having a bit more Def. A lot of these lines are very burled though. We need better clear cut lines, so people know what tank they need to do the job.

Shorcon

09-10-2010, 04:04 PM

<cite>bishoph wrote:</cite><blockquote>One factor, that has been left out. Weapon speed, can make a huge difference in threat gen. I know there are many camps, for thoughts on it. In most games, tanks go for quick weapons, to allow more hits fasters. Plus a miss chain of three or four hits do not hurt as much. Though you have people who tank with the slow weapons, for the huge threat numbers. The slower the weapon speed, the more burst threat you can get. Since Myth's, the speeds for the plate tanks have been 3.0 and 6.0. Most Warrior's, still are using a 3.0 or a 4.0 that I have seen. While most Crusader's are sticking with the 6.0 if they can. How the weapon speed works, for and agaisnt the Guard. With Reinforcement, the faster weapons will give us more hate, since we swing more. Though over the long cource of a fight, we can gen more hate with a 6.0 weapon. Dose this mean we go back to the old ToS days, where we do a weapon switch when we hit Rein, to gain faster hate. Then swap back to a slower hard hitting weapon? This is part of the issues, with weapon balance for 1h and 2h. No 1h weapon should have a slower swing speed than 4 secs (maybe even 3 secs) in my opinion. No two handed weapon should swing faster then 5 secs. Dose there need to be one super weapon that all tanks want, no. There should be a choice of weapons that the tanks can use. One that is more Def, one that is more Off, and a few in the middle. The swing speed should be brought into simular lines though. Any CA that dose all physical damage should be instant, or a 1 second set up time for an AE. Any spell that is an AE, should have a longer cast time. Even if it dose physical and magic damage, it should have a small cast time.I would be really happy with an AA, that would add 10% of the damage done on CA's as a Trauma bleed effect. Even if it is 10% of the base damage on a hit. This would help our damage and threat with out going into the OP stage when we DW. Like they say in the Ebon Hold, when you strike your opponent, twist your hand to cause more damage. Put something like this at the end of the agression line. Threat transfers and hote mod, are a quick and easy bandaid, but not a real fix. We need real fixes to the issues of our balance. Some Driges are realy good, with their songs. I have done a few pugs, witch are near impossible to find, where the Dirge asked me, what songs I needed. Well it is not a raid, so do not need parry, and hate, lets see how the group is working/acting. Plus it is hard to rely on other classes for hate, since if we are pugging a lot (or even in guild with people playing alts), the levels we get change with AA specs and if they have masters, experts or have not even upgraded the ability because they are cheap. As a tank I feel, I should not have to rely on anyone for my hate gain. I really should not have to rely on any person to do my job, out side of getting heals and cures. Snap agro, should never fail. Traget locks, should never fail. If these are tools, that the Dev's feel we need, then they should make them always work. The new target lock on plant, dose not always work, tested it in the contested hole with a healer. Would have him pull a few groups now and then. I would say over 95% of the time it worded, but very rarely it would not. What is the main differance between ST and AE target tanks. The AE tanks, get to use all their tools on a ST mob. While a ST tank, can not use most of his tools on AE mobs. This is part of the balance issues, in the game right now. What is the fix, with out making the ST tanks over powered? They need CA's and abilitys that hit that one mob really hard. They should have the best ST CA's in game. Witch as a guard, we are not even close to being average with our ST CA's. A ST target tanks CA's should hit for 10. Then the AE tanks ST CA's should hit for 5 to 7. This still allows them, to hold a mob, and they still have their AE tools, to do the job. I know some people might say, but they can not use their AE's in all fights, do to CC. Yes that is correct, but there are only a hand full of fights where CC is even used anymore. Then most of the time the tank will yell at the person who did the CC. If a ST tank can average 10,000 DPS on a single mob, then an AE tank should be about 9,000 DPS when using all of their AE tools. That is the fix right there. Not, it is a single mob fight and the ST tank is doing 10,000 DPS while the AE tank is putting out 15,000 or more DPS. Hate gained, by reactive abilitys, do not work as well as people think. With all the stuns, stiffles, blocks, parrys, misses and what ever else pops in a fight. If we as Guards are supposted to be the Defensive, Single target tanks, then we should have the best tools for that job. The way is kind of looks now is. Defensive tanks, Guard is ST, Paladin is AE. Offensive tanks Brez and SK are both AE. Advoidance tanks, Brus and Monks, with the monks having a bit more Def. A lot of these lines are very burled though. We need better clear cut lines, so people know what tank they need to do the job. </blockquote>Huh?

Wasuna

09-10-2010, 04:25 PM

Knights Stance should NEVER be applied to 2 handed weapons for crusaders. How can people even being to talk about increasing the potentional DPS of an already overpowered class?Please, back to logical Guardian changes. Namely how the heck they are going to get more TPS into the guardian make up. Right now, Guardians (and maybe brawlers) are the only fighters that don't just role their face across the keyboard and still have good agro lock.

Undorett

09-10-2010, 04:37 PM

Plenty of abilities and ideas have been posted in both this thread and the one in the guardian forum created prior to the changes on test. Very few of the changes have addressed the core problems of the class. I am happy to have some positive changes to the class, even some of the fluff Xelgad just added to it, but sad that the real problems with the class (DPS while offensive, Threat while turtled up in defensive / shield, and AOE agro / DPS) were mostly ignored.

Skeez1e

09-10-2010, 05:37 PM

I've been giving my wrist a break and took advantage of the double xp weekend and rolled a new alt and single boxed her - today is the first day I've really boxed to take a look at the guardian changes and even at that it's been a quick look thus far. First impressions:Befallen Halls was the daily and the way I run it tends to rely on the mitigation on Micki for survival. There is a difference now, no doubt. It took two trips to the revival point to fine tune what I needed to do to survive now. For the guardian, I had to actually use Hunker Down almost every time it was up, found myself using Defensive Minded more than I have before. As well, Dragoon's Reflexes saw more use than it normally does - I have been using it mostly when I screw up with the healing. The guardian changes impact group dynamics. For the boxes: far more healing, thus a heavier focus on power. Overall first impression, after the initial learning curve it wasn't too bad. SKs still had to get the last word though - looted a darn SK master in the boss chest.

Croba

09-10-2010, 05:53 PM

skeezie the issue you are noticing is not the guardian change but the +mitigation change.

aislynn00

09-10-2010, 06:02 PM

<cite>Arandar@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Personally, I think crusaders should lose Knight's Stance entirely and instead get a new AA which boosts two-handed weapon damage by 15%.Meanwhile, guardians should get Knight's Stance, thus reinforcing the notion of guardians as the defensive tank, while at the same time helping us with hate generation while wielding a shield.</blockquote>Except that Paladins, who are Crusaders, are defensive tanks. In the general scheme of things, it was Guardians and Paladins who were to be the defensive plate tanks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights being the offensive plate tanks.</blockquote>That was the original notion, but theory was thrown to the winds when TSO came out. Nowadays, top-end paladins are doing 80K DPS while wearing a shield in AE raid fights where a guardian can't even get half of that while dual-wielding.Or how about a paladin doing 52K DPS with a shield vs a single-target raid boss while a guardian can get perhaps half while dual-wielding?Doubt me? Check out Jael's latest two parses on eq2flames: <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/paladins/59388-new-parse-thread-12.html">http://www.eq2flames.com/paladins/5...-thread-12.html</a>A "defensive tank" doesn't parse that well. If you would like to drop your DPS to guardian level, then we can talk about upping your healing and abilities to put you on par survivabilitywise with guardians. Oh, wait! You're already tougher than we are, so I guess you're just asking for the DPS nerfs without even realizing it.

Kordran

09-10-2010, 06:20 PM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>That was the original notion, but theory was thrown to the winds when TSO came out. Nowadays, top-end paladins are doing 80K DPS while wearing a shield in AE raid fights where a guardian can't even get half of that while dual-wielding.Or how about a paladin doing 52K DPS with a shield vs a single-target raid boss while a guardian can get perhaps half while dual-wielding?Doubt me? Check out Jael's latest two parses on eq2flames ...</blockquote>The problem your argument there is that you're basically pointing out the abilities of one of the top-ranked Paladins in a leading raiding guild and comparing that to the generic "a guardian", trying to use that as justification that Paladins as a whole deserve a nerf.I don't know if it's the players, something in the water or what, but as long as I can remember (dating back to pre-DoF) many vocal Guardians always seemed to come to the conclusion that their personal path to greatness can only be found in the broad, sweeping nerfs to other tank classes. And round and round it goes.Instead of asking for nerfs to Crusaders, how about focusing on the things that will improve your class without it coming at the expense of another? This doesn't have to be a zero-sum game where, for Guardians to "win", the other tank classes have to "lose".

Soul_Dreamer

09-10-2010, 07:57 PM

<cite>Arandar@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>That was the original notion, but theory was thrown to the winds when TSO came out. Nowadays, top-end paladins are doing 80K DPS while wearing a shield in AE raid fights where a guardian can't even get half of that while dual-wielding.Or how about a paladin doing 52K DPS with a shield vs a single-target raid boss while a guardian can get perhaps half while dual-wielding?Doubt me? Check out Jael's latest two parses on eq2flames ...</blockquote>The problem your argument there is that you're basically pointing out the abilities of one of the top-ranked Paladins in a leading raiding guild and comparing that to the generic "a guardian", trying to use that as justification that Paladins as a whole deserve a nerf.I don't know if it's the players, something in the water or what, but as long as I can remember (dating back to pre-DoF) many vocal Guardians always seemed to come to the conclusion that their personal path to greatness can only be found in the broad, sweeping nerfs to other tank classes. And round and round it goes.Instead of asking for nerfs to Crusaders, how about focusing on the things that will improve your class without it coming at the expense of another? This doesn't have to be a zero-sum game where, for Guardians to "win", the other tank classes have to "lose".</blockquote>And yet when we ask for buffs in the areas we need every other tank class jumps onto the thread and shouts us down saying how "Defensive" we are and that we don't "Need" any changes.At present Guardians ARE NOT the most defensive tank, both Zerkers and Paladins take less sustained damage than us and both have abilities that can block damage when needed to handle spikes, so a Guardian has 1 or 2 more, big deal. That's all that sets us apart, but the big difference is we have no Adrenalin/Mythical buff propping us up the rest of the time. There is ZERO reason Guardians should be limited in AOE agro/AOE DPS/ST Agro/ST DPS/Utility in the way they currently are.

aislynn00

09-11-2010, 02:54 AM

<cite>Arandar@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>That was the original notion, but theory was thrown to the winds when TSO came out. Nowadays, top-end paladins are doing 80K DPS while wearing a shield in AE raid fights where a guardian can't even get half of that while dual-wielding.Or how about a paladin doing 52K DPS with a shield vs a single-target raid boss while a guardian can get perhaps half while dual-wielding?Doubt me? Check out Jael's latest two parses on eq2flames ...</blockquote>I don't know if it's the players, something in the water or what, but as long as I can remember (dating back to pre-DoF) many vocal Guardians always seemed to come to the conclusion that their personal path to greatness can only be found in the broad, sweeping nerfs to other tank classes. And round and round it goes.Instead of asking for nerfs to Crusaders, how about focusing on the things that will improve your class without it coming at the expense of another? This doesn't have to be a zero-sum game where, for Guardians to "win", the other tank classes have to "lose".</blockquote>And as long as I can remember, the people playing classes deserving of nerfs keep responding in the same vein.Common sense dictates that, when some fighter classes are able to do group instances by themselves, their survivability is too high. For the good of the game, you don't boost all fighters up to that same level of survivability; you bring everyone down to an appropriate level, so healers are needed.Common sense dictates that all fighters currently have too high mitigation, given that even the lowest mitigation fighter class is able to effectively cap mitigation, or get very close. Hence, you drop every fighter's mitigation until you are at a point where everyone, including guardians, have at least some room for growth.Common sense dictates that, when some fighter classes are able to deal tier 2--or even tier 1--DPS, their damage output is simply too high. Hence, you don't elevate all fighters to that DPS level; you nerf everyone down to what is suitable for a tank, so summoners, enchanters, rogues, predators, and sorcerers all remain well ahead of tank DPS (given equal skill, gear, and AA's).

Seolta

09-11-2010, 03:32 AM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>If warriors get a sword+board offensive buff, then crusaders should get either a defensive boost added to Knight's Stance(our sword+board AA ability) or a buff to the existing weapon dmg bonus on it equal to whatever the warriors get just to keep things honest.</blockquote>I'm afraid your logic is seriously flawed: it only holds true if a state of balance already existed between guardians and crusaders, which manifestly isn't the case. Hence, any changes should either weaken crusaders or strengthen guardians, not maintain the status quo.Personally, I think crusaders should lose Knight's Stance entirely and instead get a new AA which boosts two-handed weapon damage by 15%.Meanwhile, guardians should get Knight's Stance, thus reinforcing the notion of guardians as the defensive tank, while at the same time helping us with hate generation while wielding a shield.</blockquote>I'm so happy the guardians have become the new advocates for "balance" after spending half an expansion in an unfavorable position(still by no means the worst tanks. Where were you guys for all those years when SK's were dead bottom of the heap? Where are your posts advocating for the poor brawlers out there?You guys want to take the advantages of other classes and still maintain all of your strengths. Really?Y'all still need some hate boost. Believe me, I don't want to strip aggro when i'm not MT. But if i'm not the preferred MT(which crusaders won't be once the changes/mit "fix" go in)I need to bring other stuff to the table to stay valuable. We have that now with DPS and ultilty...those things should not be removed.It looks like once the hate issues are straightened out, you guys will be the ultimate min/max MT again and i'm happy for ya. Just stop trying to eviscerate the other tanks on the way there.

Emlar_from_Halas

09-11-2010, 05:36 AM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>If warriors get a sword+board offensive buff, then crusaders should get either a defensive boost added to Knight's Stance(our sword+board AA ability) or a buff to the existing weapon dmg bonus on it equal to whatever the warriors get just to keep things honest.</blockquote>I'm afraid your logic is seriously flawed: it only holds true if a state of balance already existed between guardians and crusaders, which manifestly isn't the case. Hence, any changes should either weaken crusaders or strengthen guardians, not maintain the status quo.Personally, I think crusaders should lose Knight's Stance entirely and instead get a new AA which boosts two-handed weapon damage by 15%.Meanwhile, guardians should get Knight's Stance, thus reinforcing the notion of guardians as the defensive tank, while at the same time helping us with hate generation while wielding a shield.</blockquote>I'm so happy the guardians have become the new advocates for "balance" after spending half an expansion in an unfavorable position(still by no means the worst tanks. Where were you guys for all those years when SK's were dead bottom of the heap? Where are your posts advocating for the poor brawlers out there?You guys want to take the advantages of other classes and still maintain all of your strengths. Really?Y'all still need some hate boost. Believe me, I don't want to strip aggro when i'm not MT. But if i'm not the preferred MT(which crusaders won't be once the changes/mit "fix" go in)I need to bring other stuff to the table to stay valuable. We have that now with DPS and ultilty...those things should not be removed.It looks like once the hate issues are straightened out, you guys will be the ultimate min/max MT again and i'm happy for ya. Just stop trying to eviscerate the other tanks on the way there.</blockquote>Our class has been screwed up for the last 22 months. We were asked to wait, which we did. I think we have been more than patient.There's a 36 pages thread on Guardian forum initiated by Xelgad. You will not find 1 request for nerfing any other tank class.It has little to do with class balance. Changes that are in test right now are fixing guardian abilities which are broken. Some on them for more than 2 years. I hope it doesn't hurt you to much to see how class fixed ? does it ?Once again, the mitigation fix has nothing to do with Guardian Changes. Though I agree both Guardians and Zerks have some abilities to partially cope with, but nothing I can compare to Paly's 10% DR.Now, if I compare to what was done for TSO, in order for SK class to be fixed, SoE also nerfed our STA AA line and our Myth. It has never been looked since then, despite the huge number of requests raised, and the various promises made by Devs to look after it. 22 months waiting and you come moaning because you believe, without any reason, we would like to see your class nerfed... come on... Be fair once in your poster life.BTW, from your post, you admit that in current situation sks have better dps and equal capability versus mitigation. Is it what you call balance ? As Karnos said, current situation is no way balanced. Still, we are not calling for nerf, we just ask for our dps to be good enough for us to keep aggro in def stance with a shield.

Jeal

09-11-2010, 07:10 AM

i would greatly appreciate it if you would not cry nerfbat because i'm better at this game and can do amazing things with my class.leave me out of your qq fest .. thanks

Landiin

09-11-2010, 01:44 PM

n/m

BigEv1984

09-11-2010, 02:31 PM

If you honestly think that he isn't at the top of his class then lol...just lol. All this crying from the guardians that claim they can't tank their way out of a wet paper bag so everyone else needs nerfing/adjusting is what's honestly comical. If you guys can't see that then I don't know what else to tell you plain and simple.

Irgun

09-11-2010, 05:36 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>The moment the devs decided to screw other tanks over to prop up guardians we earned the right to post here. (not even going to dwell on the fact that guardians are all over every thread for other tank class buffs or nerfs and always have been.)Give warriors increased TPSDon't nerf everyone's mit without a corresponding nerf to mob dps.I can see where this is all headed and I don't like it one bit.Don't create a situation where warriors are the only viable choice for MT. It's stupid to put the raid's best chance for success at the mercy of one or two people.As much as all these guardians would LOVE it, it just wouldn't be good for the game.</blockquote>Cry me a river. The mit chage was a bug that got fixed plus every one and their dogs was reaching mit cap. The crit fix hurts guards just as much as it hurts the other tanks. The heal nerf didn't even effect your class and didn't hurt Pally's on the raid level. Don't come here QQing because your might lose your easy mode. If you have suggestion to improve the subject matter or something of relevance then sure post away but don't come here QQing about how guards made you class get nerfed. Your class(crusaders) rightfully so QQ all over the place before TSO, so really if guards are posting all over the place, they are just following your lead.</blockquote>Its not a bug, its a faulty reason to make warriors shortbuffs viable once again, not very hard to see that - no matter if they are affected or not at the first look. In the end you wont lose anything while the rest suffers.And as a raiding paladin, critnerf DOES affect my healing capability A LOT. How useful is a 4k heal if you got 35k hitpoints? Obsolete is the right answer, sorry to make this clear to you...but seems necessary as you dont have a clue.And to be quite honest: you guys came over to critnerf-threads how you dont care or even how you support it so much since it wont affect guardians at all.Now you get this love in return - dont claim us to leave you alone, we wont. Equal rights for everyone, you started it, you`ll get the right treatment.

aislynn00

09-11-2010, 06:24 PM

<cite>Emlar@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>mitigation. Is it what you call balance ? As Karnos said, current situation is no way balanced. Still, we are not calling for nerf, we just ask for our dps to be good enough for us to keep aggro in def stance with a shield.</blockquote>Just to set matters straight: I, for one, am calling for nerfs of SK's, paladins, and berserkers. And not small ones either. I don't know when it became somehow taboo in the EQ2 community to suggest that something broken be fixed if it entailed taking power away from one class or another.

Undorett

09-11-2010, 06:25 PM

Actually there were plenty of us who were not for the heal crit nerf, and still are not. Xelgad messed up when he changed that prior to making these mitigation changes. The mit changes are terrible too, unless something is done there won't be much of a point to wearing the defensive armor as +mit is nearly worthless on test and the other stats on the defensive armor are terrible.What most of you seem to not be able to grasp is that when any class is nerfed it is a nerf to our raid. I raid with a pally, i raid with a monk, when either of them is nerfed, I feel it just as hard as they do. Most of the guardian community asks for their class to be buffed and tries not to say anything about the other classes. We are not asking for anything beyond what the rest of you have. We are asking for fair abilities.Guardian is DEAD LAST in hate generation, what did we get to compensate? A minor amends skill, 15%. Its better than nothing but its not what we are looking for. We have enough PASSIVE hate reduction and increasers, we want wants to actively increase our hate.Guardian is DEAD LAST in single target DPS, what were we given to compensate? Nothing.Guardian is DEAD LAST in AOE hate and DPS, what were we given to compensate? An AOE target lock skill with no + positions on it. Every other class out there can spec or has an AOE + hate position CA, aside from the monk who can however at least get an encounter AE positional taunt. We were given nothing to increase the AOE DPS discrepancy. Guardian is basically MIDDLE OF THE ROAD when it comes to survivability, what were we given in this area? They fixed one skill that would give us a decent chance of killing ourselves to make it so it no longer kills us. They fixed our Guardian SF End-line skill so that it actually works. They added health to our raid buff. After these changes, where do we end up, probably slightly higher in survivability compared to some of the tanks, but I would still say we sit lower than Zerkers.What incentive is there for being a guardian? We are slow soloers, we are probably the worst instance tank unless you want your tank pulling 1 mob at a time, we are terrible OTs for raids as most of the time this tank's job is picking up swarms of adds, and as a MT there are better options available.Guardians shouldn't be the best at everything, but no tank should. We do however need enough agro to do our jobs, both in AOE content and single target content. If we are to be the lowest dps tank class, we need to have more survivability than other tanks. The give and take between tanks needs to be in the survivability and dps portion of tanking, with all tanks having agro enough to do anything.

aislynn00

09-11-2010, 06:37 PM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>i would greatly appreciate it if you would not cry nerfbat because i'm better at this game and can do amazing things with my class.leave me out of your qq fest .. thanks</blockquote>Why on earth would I do that, when you are the best example of everything that is broken about paladins? I just wish the berserker community would kindly offer up as good an example.You, a member of one of the top three raid guilds, are one of the highest parsing paladins in the game, meaning you demonstrate best of all what the DPS potential of the class is.As for survivability, I don't believe there is any tank in the game who has successfully tanked anything you haven't--and let's not forget, you are playing a paladin. Any tank who tanks something first worldwide should, needless to say, be a member of the toughest MT class--guardian, if you go by developer intent.The devs clearly stated back when TSO came out that guardians were supposed to be the tanks who tanked things first, after which paladins, SK's, and so on eventually would become able to do it, after gearing up for a bit. Guardians got peerless survivability in return of lower DPS and weaker utility.You have proven, time and again, that guardians long ago lost the survivability throne to paladins--and on top of that, you are proudly presenting your own tier 1 DPS parses to go along with that.Did you think nobody was watching?

aislynn00

09-11-2010, 06:48 PM

<cite>Inioch@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you honestly think that he isn't at the top of his class then lol...just lol. All this crying from the guardians that claim they can't tank their way out of a wet paper bag so everyone else needs nerfing/adjusting is what's honestly comical. </blockquote>I don't really think it matters whether you compare Jeal's DPS vs any particular guardian. 81K DPS--which is tier 1 DPS--isn't something that should ever be associated with any tank. Period.Personally, I think 20K should be just about the cap, achievable only by monks and bruisers, who give up the most survivability for their DPS--but that is neither here nor there.At any rate, if you really want a guardian to compare Jeal's parses to, how about Rhita, the sole remaining guardian MT in a high-end guild (Shoukin, another one of the top 3 guilds worldwide). Here is her best parse from that very same encounter the shield-wielding Jeal got 81K in (dual-wielding Rhita parsed 37K):<a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/38367-random-guardian-parse-thread-36.html">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...-thread-36.html</a>

Rosem

09-11-2010, 06:55 PM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>If warriors get a sword+board offensive buff, then crusaders should get either a defensive boost added to Knight's Stance(our sword+board AA ability) or a buff to the existing weapon dmg bonus on it equal to whatever the warriors get just to keep things honest.</blockquote>I'm afraid your logic is seriously flawed: it only holds true if a state of balance already existed between guardians and crusaders, which manifestly isn't the case. Hence, any changes should either weaken crusaders or strengthen guardians, not maintain the status quo.Personally, I think crusaders should lose Knight's Stance entirely and instead get a new AA which boosts two-handed weapon damage by 15%.Meanwhile, guardians should get Knight's Stance, thus reinforcing the notion of guardians as the defensive tank, while at the same time helping us with hate generation while wielding a shield.</blockquote>I'm so happy the guardians have become the new advocates for "balance" after spending half an expansion in an unfavorable position(still by no means the worst tanks. Where were you guys for all those years when SK's were dead bottom of the heap? Where are your posts advocating for the poor brawlers out there?You guys want to take the advantages of other classes and still maintain all of your strengths. Really?Y'all still need some hate boost. Believe me, I don't want to strip aggro when i'm not MT. But if i'm not the preferred MT(which crusaders won't be once the changes/mit "fix" go in)I need to bring other stuff to the table to stay valuable. We have that now with DPS and ultilty...those things should not be removed.It looks like once the hate issues are straightened out, you guys will be the ultimate min/max MT again and i'm happy for ya. Just stop trying to eviscerate the other tanks on the way there.</blockquote>You are right, if a tank class is not the preferred MT they need other things to make them useful on a raid. Tell me, what raidwide buffs do guardians currently bring to the table that make them as useful as the buffs from any of the other tank classes? They are, after all, not currently the preferred MT by most top-end guilds. Rhita is one of the few exceptions. Why bother bringing along a guardian when you can get 5% spell-damage potency (raid wide) and 8% potency (group wide) and significantly higher DPS from a Shadow Knight?