Guardian Change Feedback from the test server [Archive]

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WarmMachine

08-28-2010, 09:52 PM

First of all the purpose of this post is for feed back about the current changes made on the test server, not suggestions about other changes that need to be made. The suggestion post is over 30 pages of great suggestions, if you have more to add to you you can find it here. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=482790" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=482790</a>Changes implemented on the test server link <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=485792&post_id=5403832#5403832" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...5403832#5403832</a>Guardian "Got Your Back" is now raidwide and has a 50 meter radius. "Cripple" is now a combat art that deals damage and reduces riposte damage of the target by 75%. "Call of Shielding" now increases the maximum health of the raid as well as the defense skill. "Guardian Sphere" now has a 0.5 second casting time. It lasts for 12-20 seconds (based on spell revision) and grants the guardian a 25% (at master) chance to absorb an attack (same as before) but no longer has max triggers of 6. The interpose effect has been changed to a stoneskin proc at 50% at master. "Recapture" now reduces the hate position of the group members by 1 as well. The reuse is now 45 seconds. "Iron Will" now reduces snare effects on the guardian as well as increases stamina. (36% at master at 90) "Plant" now forces targets in Area of Effect to target the guardian and increases the guardian's threat slightly. The duration has been slightly reduced. "Enhance: Plant" now improves the duration by 0.4 seconds per point rather than 1. "Double Attack" is now "Flurry" and grants 3% Flurry chance rather than 9% double attack. "Bind Wound" now heals the warrior to full. The "Crippling" line has been changed to the "Aggression" line: "Enhance: Intercept" also reduces incoming damage to the target of Intercept. "Enhance: Moderate" now increases the target's crit bonus by 1% rather than reducing hate gain by 2%. "Enhance: Rescue" has been moved to slot 4 in the new hate line (formally crippling.) "Enhance: Reinforcement" has been moved to slot 5 in the new hate line. "Enhance: Rescue" in the original slot has been replaced with "Enhance: Call to Arms" which increases the skill bonuses by 7% per rank. "Enhance: Reinforcement" in the original slot has been replaced with "Enhance: Call of Shielding" which increases the spell by 5% per rank. "Enhance: Ruin" is now "Enhance: Provoke" and increases the threat amount by 7% per point. "Enhance: Concussion" is now "Enhance: Shout" and increases the potency and reduces the resist chance of Shout. "Enhance: Sever" is now "Enhance: Hatred" and increases the guardian's threat generation by 2% per rank. "Cripple" is now "Shoulder the Burdon" and transfers 10% threat from the target group member to the guardian. "Hold the Line" and "Aggressive Defense" now trigger threat 100% of the time on a successful block. "Aggressive Nature" now increases the threat amounts on "Hold the Line" and "Aggressive Defense."

WarmMachine

08-28-2010, 09:52 PM

While it looks like several changes, most every change is miniscule. I copied my guardian over to the test server to test out these changes, I soloed the hole for about an hour and a half to compare against the logs of me soloing in the hole Thursday night. The results are as follows, damage taken was roughly the same taking 1% less damage on the test server. DPS was roughly the same doing 1% more dps on the live server. I am surprised the numbers were that close, an hour and a half is a small sample size, but it would be enough to tell larger changes. On the live server I only ran Defensive Minded, on the test server I ran both Defensive Minded followed by Guardian Sphere when DM had lapsed, so I expected the test server to take at least 5% less damage. Although I noted Guardian Sphere did not show up in ACT, and somebody posted it was not working on the suggestion thread. Threat out was more on the test server by roughly 3%, please note I do not taunt much when soloing, so I expect this number would be up about 7% if I was using taunts. Over all these changes do nothing for the Guardian. These changes will not entice any of the Guardian community that have left the game or rerolled as another tank to return. These changes will not increase Guardians desirability in groups or raids. Failing to meet those two criteria, to me makes the improvements to a guardian a failure. "Call of Shielding" gives 873.8 hp at expert level with 5 aa it gives 1092.3. This seems in line, although I still would like to see something more useful or at least something more noticeable on the raid buff. "Enhance:Hatred" Can add 15 hate mod though wrist & hand adornment. 10 hate mod from executioner's furry. 5 hate mod from Improved Moderate. 17.5 from yellow adornments (2.5 each) or 35 from red adornments (5 each). Dirges buff 30 hate mod, Coercers 22 hate mod. The cap on Hate mod is 50. Point being Hate mod is easy to get. "Recapture", the changes make it a nice group spell now, and a bit more useful on raids. "Plant" It does not trigger reinforcement like the old version did making it a down grade in our ae hate management on raids. "Hold the Line" now trigger threat 100% of the time on a successful block. Make this all parry, and dodge also. Changes that are so small will make no impact are the following: "Got Your Back" "Cripple" old change text? "Iron Will" "Bind Wound" "Enhance:Intercept" "Enhance:Moderate" having to spend 11 aa to get 5 crit bonus for another player, nobody will spec this. "Enhance: Provoke" adds roughly 3k threat to provoke at 90, not a big gain. "Enhance:Shout" the spell is normally resist rate is lower than 5% before using this AA. Adds roughly 2k threat. "Aggressive Defensive" 5 aa in this increases threat amount on hold the line 288.

arksun

08-29-2010, 12:52 AM

The aggression line is horrible considering the points you have to waste to get the 10% siphon from the endline. Hate caps so easy and with INT line in warrior tree you really only need to put 4 in the rescue portion, I think that line needs a rework to be useful, and for the advance moderate you would have to spend countless points in wasted abilities just to get that, sorry but no one will have the CB buff from me if I have to sacrifice 6-10 AA just to get to that line.The flurry chance from parsing on test needs to be boosted to be anything usefull, 6% most likely.All in all make moderate more accessible, change up the aggresion tree to better suit going for the burden shoulder buff, and raise the flurry chance on the endline.Also change arena endurance in the warrior tree or the warrior tree in the shadows table to some form of dmg bonus while wearing a shield.

Landiin

08-29-2010, 01:05 PM

"Got Your Back" is now raidwide and has a 50 meter radius.-Nothing change to get people to actully spend the points to get it. "Cripple" is now a combat art that deals damage and reduces riposte damage of the target by 75%.-I can't find this new CA, maybe I am just a bit of a dunce. "Call of Shielding" now increases the maximum health of the raid as well as the defense skill.-Better then before, I'ed like to see defense replaced with CritMit though"Guardian Sphere" now has a 0.5 second casting time. It lasts for 12-20 seconds (based on spell revision) and grants the guardian a 25% (at master) chance to absorb an attack (same as before) but no longer has max triggers of 6. The interpose effect has been changed to a stoneskin proc at 50% at master.-Looks good on paper, totally forgot to test it.<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />"Recapture" now reduces the hate position of the group members by 1 as well. The reuse is now 45 seconds.-Good improvement for heroic content no change for raids."Iron Will" now reduces snare effects on the guardian as well as increases stamina. (36% at master at 90)-Meh I guess it will be good for the soloing guard."Plant" now forces targets in Area of Effect to target the guardian and increases the guardian's threat slightly. The duration has been slightly reduced.-This is a nice change but umm the small range negates all the good changes and makes it pretty much useless for its intent."Double Attack" is now "Flurry" and grants 3% Flurry chance rather than 9% double attack.-Wee 3% I guess it is better then the DA IF you are max out DA other wise it is a nerf."Bind Wound" now heals the warrior to full.-Good for the solo player.Enhance: Intercept" also reduces incoming damage to the target of Intercept.-Nice change"Enhance: Moderate" now increases the target's crit bonus by 1% rather than reducing hate gain by 2%.-I don't think my moderate will be enhanced. There will be better places to put AA."Enhance: Ruin" is now "Enhance: Provoke" and increases the threat amount by 7% per point.-Does 35% make it worth spending points into a taunt that don't even move the aggro meter? I guess its better then nothing"Enhance: Concussion" is now "Enhance: Shout" and increases the potency and reduces the resist chance of Shout.-See above, the reduced resist is ok, but to bad you have to waist points in provoke to get it."Enhance: Sever" is now "Enhance: Hatred" and increases the guardian's threat generation by 2% per rank.-Good for heroic only guard that don't have the luck to run with a dirge or coercer."Cripple" is now "Shoulder the Burdon" and transfers 10% threat from the target group member to the guardian.-Wouldn't be that bad but you have to waist points in very lack luster AA's to get it."Hold the Line" and "Aggressive Defense" now trigger threat 100% of the time on a successful block.-Only really helps you you toss on a shield and that isn't a big improvement. Adding a % to proc on an avoid would really help our sustained aggro."Aggressive Nature" now increases the threat amounts on "Hold the Line" and "Aggressive Defense."-Helps hold the line some but IMO should increase % change to trigger then threat amount.

vinere

08-30-2010, 03:48 PM

for atleast 50% of guards the change to DA is a downgrade... Unless you have high end UD type gear, that DA allows you to use one or two more items with CB/Potency... and 3 CB is still far better then 3 flurry.

Yimway

08-30-2010, 05:59 PM

TBH, I don't think these updates in any way, shape, or form, address the problems with why the class is undesireable.Way to waste your time SoE.Nothing was done to address our short term defensive buffs that are no longer relevant due to itemization. Nothing was done to address the dps gap. Nothing was done to distinguish us as being significantly more survivable to justify the dps gap.

Soul_Dreamer

08-31-2010, 08:19 AM

"Got Your Back" is now raidwide and has a 50 meter radius.Still a useless ability, I can't even remember the last time one of our tanks died to an AOE and had a detrimental effect to the raid so why do I need to save them from AOE's? How is a solo/group tank going to make any use of this ability what so ever. The ability is VERY situational and even then only in raids.There are some damage transfers in game, usually cast on the tank by a healer (SOH item - 100% intercept of damage, caster takes 5% target takes 95%). Could you not add something similar of 90% and 10% and castable on other tanks/scouts? The Guardian will take 90% damage, the target of cast 10% damage."Cripple" is now a combat art that deals damage and reduces riposte damage of the target by 75%.I Believe this was removed and is an error on the patch notes."Call of Shielding" now increases the maximum health of the raid as well as the defense skill.OK, but not really enough, the defense is still close to useless and only actually useful for anyone who is actually tanking. Can you change the defense to something equal in your scoring system, regenning ward/mitigation etc, something to help on Melee AOE's."Guardian Sphere" now has a 0.5 second casting time. It lasts for 12-20 seconds (based on spell revision) and grants the guardian a 25% (at master) chance to absorb an attack (same as before) but no longer has max triggers of 6. The interpose effect has been changed to a stoneskin proc at 50% at master.This is a nice change and needed doing, the only thing I would like to see is that the stoneskin is up on the initial cast rather than needing to be procced on inc damage."Recapture" now reduces the hate position of the group members by 1 as well. The reuse is now 45 seconds.Makes the ability somewhat useful for groups."Iron Will" now reduces snare effects on the guardian as well as increases stamina. (36% at master at 90)Lots of things you could have done to change this ability other than just snare, you do know we now have 2 HP buffs and a +Stamina buff, the +Stamina buff is rarely even useful since even Heroic geared Guardians are over the stamina cap. Unless stamina is going to be useful for soemthing once it's over cap this needs changing."Plant" now forces targets in Area of Effect to target the guardian and increases the guardian's threat slightly. The duration has been slightly reduced.Increase the range, 5m isn't enough, would also be nice if the hate was an AOE DoT, the amount of hate on this is very low and a lot of epic named are immune to target locks, the ability would at least add some hate use against mobs like that then. This ability can NO LONGER be used with re-inforcement which is a nerf!"Enhance: Plant" now improves the duration by 0.4 seconds per point rather than 1.The duration is fine, please increase the hate/add Melee damage to it per point."Double Attack" is now "Flurry" and grants 3% Flurry chance rather than 9% double attack.I gained a HUGE 80 DPS from this 3% flurry, it needs to be higher."Bind Wound" now heals the warrior to full.Helps the soloing Warrior, it would be nice if it was an incombat ability though,always on and maybe if the Warrior drops below 25% HP it triggers and still not castable in combat.The "Crippling" line has been changed to the "Aggression" line:"Enhance: Intercept" also reduces incoming damage to the target of Intercept.Not managed to test it, either - The target already only takes 6% damage, why am I adding 10% damage reduction to that?10k Hit - Target takes 6% = 600 damage, new AA will add 10% damage reduction - 60.... seriously I'm spending 5aa to stop such a small amount of damage on another tank?ORIt's a reduction in the damage we take, in which case that 10% will be 9k, still pretty worthless. Especially for an ability that will be used so infrequently."Enhance: Moderate" now increases the target's crit bonus by 1% rather than reducing hate gain by 2%. Other fighters get abilities that either increase the whole groups/raids CB/Potency and increases it by more than this ability. If it also added the CB to the Guardian or it was double on the target so a total of 10% then yes, I may think about sacrificing 6 AA to even get this ability."Enhance: Rescue" has been moved to slot 4 in the new hate line (formally crippling.)I'll still probably take this as I currently am."Enhance: Reinforcement" has been moved to slot 5 in the new hate line.As Above"Enhance: Rescue" in the original slot has been replaced with "Enhance: Call to Arms" which increases the skill bonuses by 7% per rank.I'll only put points in this to get to Shielding."Enhance: Reinforcement" in the original slot has been replaced with "Enhance: Call of Shielding" which increases the spell by 5% per rank.OK, but it's still defense on it...."Enhance: Ruin" is now "Enhance: Provoke" and increases the threat amount by 7% per point.I always use taunts when they are up, even then though they aren't a large portion of my hate. I'll probably take this to get to Rescue."Enhance: Concussion" is now "Enhance: Shout" and increases the potency and reduces the resist chance of Shout.As above.Taunts do so little of my personal hate even if I use them each time they are available to be used. I can't see this change doing anything noticable.Enhance: Sever" is now "Enhance: Hatred" and increases the guardian's threat generation by 2% per rank.A similar ability is already in the str line of the warrior tree, what is the point in having another one when we're capped at 50%."Cripple" is now "Shoulder the Burdon" and transfers 10% threat from the target group member to the guardian.OK, but all other tanks can get a better version of this from an item from a mob who is blue and 1 groupable."Hold the Line" and "Aggressive Defense" now trigger threat 100% of the time on a successful block.An improvement, but did Zerkers really need improving?"Aggressive Nature" now increases the threat amounts on "Hold the Line" and "Aggressive Defense."As above.Overall AA'sAgression - Most Gaurdians will put a couple of points in the 2 taunts to get rescue, and if they have the points left over increase them to get the end ability. But I'd have thought most will be 3/3 in the taunts, 3 in rescue and 5 in reinforcement.Slaughtering - As is, currently the best line and the staple Gaurdian line for DPS and Hate. Almost all Gaurdian will max ALL these abilities. the 3% Flurry though is worth all of 80 DPS according to my parses.Stability - I just can't see people taking intercept/Sentinel because their gains aren't worth while, our main and only issue is out DPS/Hate, these add to neither so Guardians simply cannot afford to loose points from abilities that do help these.Enhance call to arms and Enhance shielding I Can see people using, probably 3/5 respectively. Sentry watch can still kill us so I don't think many Guardians will take it. This means the end ability is unable to be used because of lack of points in the line, it's also useless anyway so no one will want to use it. IF Sentry watch and Moderate where swapped in positions more people will take enhance moderate but as is I can't see anyone taking it because of the waste of points above it.Block - The usual with a minor change here for me.Temp mit buffs 3/5 (as current), ignore plant since I can now use enhance shout to get enhance UW. 5 in Stone Sphere and 5 in Tower of Stone then 1 in block ( as current).All in all I'm going to take 4 of the new AA's out of the 8 or so you've added and the new agression AA's for taunts I'm only taking so I can get an AA I've always had.. Honestly, if the new AA's where even in remotely the right direction of where Guardians need help I'd take them, as is though they do nothing for the areas Guardians are struggleing.All in all, not enough, there is still no DPS balance between Guardian and the other plate tanks and yet they still have our survivability. IF there was a balance between Guardian raw hate and the hate added via DPS for the other plate tanks there still wouldn't be a balance since the other plate tanks DPS has the added benefit of killing the mobs faster as well as the hate it adds.One very minor change would go a long way to adding DPS and hate for Gaurdians.Our mythical buff is currently the worst of all the plate tanks.Current - A.) Riposte Imunity.B.) CC Immunity Proc.C.) Damage reduction and Damage Proc.CHANGE TO A.) Constant buff of - 50% Change to reflect 50% of stoneskinned damage back at the attacker.B.) Leave as is.C.) Leave as is.This will mean our abilities Tower of Stone, Stone Sphere, Block have a chance to add some damage when they are used. Sentry watch still has a chance to kill us, this needs to be change as Stonespere has been, a SK doesn't give up personal DPS when he raises the DPS of the group. Why should a Guardian give up personal survivability when he saves group members? So many other imprvements have been posted in other thread I'm not going to go further into it here. But... WHEN will things actually be balanced because from all my testing on test my DPS hasn't increased, there are very minor changes to my hate if I take the new hate abilities and the only change to my survivability is Stonespehere which is currently not proccing it seems.

TheSpin

08-31-2010, 08:37 AM

As I mentioned in another post on the general fighter section. There's simply no way to balance a class that uses pure avoidence/stoneskin/mitigation type abilities versus classes that use self healing as a primary form of surviveability. Either the guardian is going to be the best tank, or the worst tank. The only way to really fix guardians is to fix this underlying issue. No I don't know how to do it, but slight improvements to certain abilities is not going to bring balance.

dalponis

08-31-2010, 05:15 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>A.) Constant buff of - 50% Change to reflect 50% of stoneskinned damage back at the attacker.</blockquote> That might be a bit too over-powered. Why not let people from both sides be happy? Both sides? I mean the "Guardians are defensive tanks!" and "Guardians need to deal moar damage!" sides. It's quite simple, add an effect to the mythical that increases weapon damage while using a shield.

Zivgar

09-08-2010, 03:22 PM

I have many ideas in my head about these changes, but one point I would like to make is about the hatred AA in the new aggression line.Yes there are many ways to increase hate gain, but what I see if giving us more flexability with hate gain.Yes a dirge can increase our hate gain, but now they can run a song that is way more useful that will help the entire group.Sure we can add gain to white/yellow/red adorn slots, but now we can add better dps adorns.I like that one change, but I agree these changes aren't going to fix the larger issues. All I see are us Guardians wanting to the role that was stated we are: The Ultimate Protectors.So give us enough DPS so we can protect our fellow DPS classes, Gives enough AE taunts, and single taunts to help protect our fellow group and raid members. That is all we ask. Not to do more damage than a SK, or Brawlers, or Berzerkers.Make our DPS slightly better than Paladins on singles targets and make our DPS slightly less on AE encounters than a Paladin. Make us in line with other tanks classes its all we ask.