Man of the Match award.

[Mattax]

<p>Just an idea, but at the end of each BG, each team could vote for the player they considered to have done most for the team. They could be given either a cash reward or an extra token, and of course you can't vote for yourself.</p><p>Everyone likes to think their efforts are appreciated and I think this would be a nice way to show this.</p><p>We can already vote someone AFK , it should be easy enough to vote for MOTM .</p><p>Any thoughts  additions or expansion welcome.</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>Kraug@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just an idea, but at the end of each BG, each team could vote for the player they considered to have done most for the team. They could be given either a cash reward or an extra token, and of course you can't vote for yourself.</p><p>Everyone likes to think their efforts are appreciated and I think this would be a nice way to show this.</p><p>We can already vote someone AFK , it should be easy enough to vote for MOTM .</p><p>Any thoughts  additions or expansion welcome.</p></blockquote><p>Premades would pile votes onto one person in their team, thus making a MOTM award trivial at best.Your idea is with good intention, and it would be nice if something like it was put in, but without something to the effect of a "referee", it will almost be impossible to make work.</p>

[Mattax]

I never thought it through that far as to contemplate abuse. Oh well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Colby]

<p>Yeah, a voting system would just favor the premades and give them even more rewards.</p><p>However, this idea might work better if the system automatically determined the match MVP based on endgame stats.  Multiplayer Red Dead Redemption matches already do this, so it's not outside the realm of possibility.  Giving a small reward like an extra token to the MVP would increase competitiveness and maybe help combat turtling in Ganak, theoretically.</p>

[Uinael_Guk]

<p>I'd like to see some type of match score which works with a rank in BG's, gaining points for a number of things.  With that score, they can easily give out like 2 tokens to the top score and 1 to the 2nd score, no voting required.    Of course that's all advanced stuff that will never see the light of day in EQ2's BG's... at least not until WoW put it in first.  :p  EQ2 is not known for it's innovation.</p>

[TheSpin]

I don't think there's any good way for an automated system to track down who was actually the most valuable player. My stats on Ganak might look like crap, but if the only dps I did is what prevented a flag from being captured that dps is more valuable than a warlock in the middle of the field aoeing and nuking everything he sees. Maybe in Klak you could try this out, but it takes a whole group to make a single group member look good. Especially considering this game has a lot of buffs that make a big difference.

[Ralpmet]

<p>I don't buy that last post in gears.</p><p>In t4 if my fury heals the relic for ~85k, the match is over in our favor. I have ~15 screenshots where he hits exactly 85k in heals, all winner shots, all top heals.</p><p>Same with t8 on my inq. I don't think it would be fair if someone who was dpsing got some dumb award when my heals alone carried a team, especially when I wind up with the relic a majority of the time.</p><p>I don't think there would honestly be a fair way to do it, but it would be nice to be recognized for going above-and-beyond in service in the bg's.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>You can figure out who the best player was by how they played during the match, no need for it to be repeated imo.</p>

[Uinael_Guk]

<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't buy that last post in gears.</p><p>In t4 if my fury heals the relic for ~85k, the match is over in our favor. I have ~15 screenshots where he hits exactly 85k in heals, all winner shots, all top heals.</p><p>Same with t8 on my inq. I don't think it would be fair if someone who was dpsing got some dumb award when my heals alone carried a team, especially when I wind up with the relic a majority of the time.</p><p>I don't think there would honestly be a fair way to do it, but it would be nice to be recognized for going above-and-beyond in service in the bg's.</p></blockquote><p>It depends on the amount of heals vs amount of damage, and other factors.   Picking up the relic should be a nice bonus to a score + time holding it.  Healing the relic holder is extremely important, as is damaging and killing the relic holder.  </p><p>The same goes for Ganak.  I'd say any heals + damage in a certain radius around a flag should have a multiplier vs random combat.  This means if you're defending the flag and killing people in the radius around the flag, you're gaining bonus 'score'.  The same if you're working on picking up the other flag.   Also bonus points for picking  up flags, capping them, etc.</p><p>Den would probably be pretty simple too, a multiplier based on fighting on the flag, capping flags, etc, etc.</p><p>Not that any of it really matters, even if they DID put in a score system, it would likely be flawed, people would exploit some part of it for easy tokens until they fix it 3 months later, and the rest would be a fluff little pat on the back.   Would be real sweet if they put in a Call of Duty experience system, but that would NEVER happen.</p>

[Wigg]

<p>Idea:</p><p>Top Healer, Top kills, Top killing blows, Top damage, Top heals received all get 1 bonus token.  Will push people to do better instead of just going for that free token afk.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Wigg@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Idea:</p><p>Top Healer, Top kills, Top killing blows, Top damage, Top heals received all get 1 bonus token.  Will push people to do better instead of just going for that free token afk.</p></blockquote><p>Top healer highly favors shamans, Top Damage heavily favors predators, Killing blows favors assassins. If you do this type of system you will have little to nobody wanting to play support classes like bards and chanters because they will never really top any of those without everyone else being really bad.</p>

[Ralpmet]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wigg@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Idea:</p><p>Top Healer, Top kills, Top killing blows, Top damage, Top heals received all get 1 bonus token.  Will push people to do better instead of just going for that free token afk.</p></blockquote><p>Top healer highly favors shamans, Top Damage heavily favors predators, Killing blows favors assassins. If you do this type of system you will have little to nobody wanting to play support classes like bards and chanters because they will never really top any of those without everyone else being really bad.</p></blockquote><p><img src="http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9123/eq2000078.jpg" /></p><p><img src="http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/8692/eq2000082.jpg" /></p><p>So so so not true <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> (only posted 2 pictures because I don't want to post too many and seem silly.)</p><p>edit: Looking through my pictures, my inq top heals pretty much all of his matches by a great deal (and he doesn't even have myth or myth conversion done), my fury top heals pretty much all of his matches by a great deal (he's only t4 though), and my assassin definitely racks up the most killing blows per kills. It's about 3kills/2killing blows averaged out for him, which would make it ridiculously easy to farm extra tokens on him vs others.</p><p>edit2: i have about 9 shots of my sk topping damage received, damage done, damage healed, and heals in t4 matches, so I could see that as a pretty big issue for a system of any kind to get around.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wigg@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Idea:</p><p>Top Healer, Top kills, Top killing blows, Top damage, Top heals received all get 1 bonus token.  Will push people to do better instead of just going for that free token afk.</p></blockquote><p>Top healer highly favors shamans, Top Damage heavily favors predators, Killing blows favors assassins. If you do this type of system you will have little to nobody wanting to play support classes like bards and chanters because they will never really top any of those without <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>everyone else being really bad.</strong></span></p></blockquote>

[Uinael_Guk]

<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>edit: Looking through my pictures, my inq top heals pretty much all of his matches by a great deal (and he doesn't even have myth or myth conversion done),</p></blockquote><p>To be fair though, people generally don't take screenshots the times they finish like 5th in damage :p</p><p>I do agree with him though, of course don't agree with the class specifics (i'm top 3 in dmg almost every match with my Warlock), but it would certainly favor the "t1 dps" classes like the sorcerers and preds.   Sure, some uber enchanter may get the top dmg token here and there, but it would definitely sway people away from those classes, necros, bards, etc.</p>

[Guld_Ulrish]

<p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kraug@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just an idea, but at the end of each BG, each team could vote for the player they considered to have done most for the team. They could be given either a cash reward or an extra token, and of course you can't vote for yourself.</p><p>Everyone likes to think their efforts are appreciated and I think this would be a nice way to show this.</p><p>We can already vote someone AFK , it should be easy enough to vote for MOTM .</p><p>Any thoughts  additions or expansion welcome.</p></blockquote><p>Premades would pile votes onto one person in their team, thus making a MOTM award trivial at best.Your idea is with good intention, and it would be nice if something like it was put in, but without something to the effect of a "referee", it will almost be impossible to make work.</p></blockquote><p>Make it so you can only vote for the other team then.</p>

[Ralpmet]

<p><cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>edit: Looking through my pictures, my inq top heals pretty much all of his matches by a great deal (and he doesn't even have myth or myth conversion done),</p></blockquote><p>To be fair though, people generally don't take screenshots the times they finish like 5th in damage :p</p><p>I do agree with him though, of course don't agree with the class specifics (i'm top 3 in dmg almost every match with my Warlock), but it would certainly favor the "t1 dps" classes like the sorcerers and preds.   Sure, some uber enchanter may get the top dmg token here and there, but it would definitely sway people away from those classes, necros, bards, etc.</p></blockquote><p>I take a picture after every match, I have a folder with over 500 screenshots in it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Edit: Even on matches I join late, or matches I do godaweful in. Generally if I do absolutely godaweful in a match I try to look at ACT and compare it to a match where I did good, just to figure out what happened/how it happened.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p>Highly favored does not mean set in stone. Killing blows favors assassins because of their killing blow AA which does a huge hit if someone is below 10%. Shamans are favored because of the order of heals. DPS would favor the Preds/Sorcs no doubt because that is what the class is. I've topped DPS in an x2 on a Mystic, My brother has topped DPS in the x2 on a warden. Does it happen lots? No. Also sub T9 is worthless to me and I view it as the people who can't cut it at max level.</p><p> LOOK I R L33t Mystic DPS!</p><p><img src="http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/551/eq2000008.jpg" width="1440" height="850" /></p>

[Ralpmet]

<p>Tell you what Erik, I am too lazy to quote myself, but I clearly told you I had a lot more. I'd say about 60% of the matches (it's truly only based on the tank/heals in the group) I top killing blows* on my coercer with no issues. I'm not saying I don't see where you're coming from, I'm just saying that your guess is wrong. And also I'm going to call BS on mystics outhealing plates in the bgs. And that's just based off going through t9 screenshots on my coercer, so I don't know if maybe I've seen a lot of crappy chain heals or a lot of really good plate heals, but obviously something isn't right there.</p><p>Just my 2c as someone who has run BG's in every tier on every archtype, while that toon was twinked, all except my wizzie, spells are ridiculous at his level on the PvP server, even getting them crafted would be like 30p-40p in raw mats, and as a backburner toon that's not going to happen.</p><p>edit: * changed parse to killing blows, because in honesty I don't really top the parse but the killing blows is pretty dang easy.</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Highly favored does not mean set in stone. Killing blows favors assassins because of their killing blow AA which does a huge hit if someone is below 10%. Shamans are favored because of the order of heals. DPS would favor the Preds/Sorcs no doubt because that is what the class is. I've topped DPS in an x2 on a Mystic, My brother has topped DPS in the x2 on a warden. Does it happen lots? No. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Also sub T9 is worthless to me and I view it as the people who can't cut it at max level.</strong></span></p><p> LOOK I R L33t Mystic DPS!</p></blockquote><p>That.Fans of the lower level BGs often complain about lvl90 BGs being never ending slug fests, with no deaths.  Once every now and then, I am in a 90BG where the tanks rock, healers rock, but all the DPS suck, causing a low rate of death. But the significant majority of matches are not like that, and have plenty of deaths all round.The reality must be that lowbie BG fans are just scared of running into the more experienced EQ2 players, who play the game at the top end, instead of aspiring to <em>"greatness"</em> in the little leagues.</p>

[bRz]

<p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Highly favored does not mean set in stone. Killing blows favors assassins because of their killing blow AA which does a huge hit if someone is below 10%. Shamans are favored because of the order of heals. DPS would favor the Preds/Sorcs no doubt because that is what the class is. I've topped DPS in an x2 on a Mystic, My brother has topped DPS in the x2 on a warden. Does it happen lots? No. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Also sub T9 is worthless to me and I view it as the people who can't cut it at max level.</strong></span></p><p> LOOK I R L33t Mystic DPS!</p></blockquote><p>That.Fans of the lower level BGs often complain about lvl90 BGs being never ending slug fests, with no deaths.  Once every now and then, I am in a 90BG where the tanks rock, healers rock, but all the DPS suck, causing a low rate of death. But the significant majority of matches are not like that, and have plenty of deaths all round.The reality must be that lowbie BG fans are just scared of running into the more experienced EQ2 players, who play the game at the top end, instead of aspiring to <em>"greatness"</em> in the little leagues.</p></blockquote><p>Good for you two, you must really be proud of yourselves, you won eq2 and everyone who plays differently loses. Call your moms I am sure they would love to know.</p>

[Ralpmet]

<p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Highly favored does not mean set in stone. Killing blows favors assassins because of their killing blow AA which does a huge hit if someone is below 10%. Shamans are favored because of the order of heals. DPS would favor the Preds/Sorcs no doubt because that is what the class is. I've topped DPS in an x2 on a Mystic, My brother has topped DPS in the x2 on a warden. Does it happen lots? No. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Also sub T9 is worthless to me and I view it as the people who can't cut it at max level.</strong></span></p><p> LOOK I R L33t Mystic DPS!</p></blockquote><p>That.Fans of the lower level BGs often complain about lvl90 BGs being never ending slug fests, with no deaths.  Once every now and then, I am in a 90BG where the tanks rock, healers rock, but all the DPS suck, causing a low rate of death. But the significant majority of matches are not like that, and have plenty of deaths all round.The reality must be that lowbie BG fans are just scared of running into the more experienced EQ2 players, who play the game at the top end, instead of aspiring to <em>"greatness"</em> in the little leagues.</p></blockquote><p>Single most arrogant and ignorant things I've ever read on these boards up to date. </p><p>I mean, seriously, do you think putting on 10+ pieces of procs makes t9 better than any other tier before it? Do you think the ABSOLUTELY NO NEW SPELLS you achieved leveling from 81-90 makes you better? Not at all, heck, the only difference between 89 and 90 is the gear you get. Big whoop, want a cookie? I'd rather play in a setting where what I'm doing is going to make a larger over-all impact, without relying on gear procs/cooldowns/ect in what I'm doing.</p><p>Even soe doesn't think that being in t9 makes the fighting more intense, or you'd get more tokens for completing a t9 bg. Stupid comments are stupid.</p><p>Edit: for the lulz let's take a look at the number of procs my coercer has VS the number of procs my assassin has --</p><p>And here come the pictures:</p><p>1. My coercer is missing 4 pieces of gear that proc still, but look at this garbage;</p><p><img src="http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/7344/eq2000184.jpg" /></p><p>So apparently skill involves hoping for procs, am-i-right? Well let's check out my assassin, surely he relies on procs too!</p><p><img src="http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/2492/eq2000185.jpg" /></p><p>Hm. Guess not.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Tell you what Erik, I am too lazy to quote myself, but I clearly told you I had a lot more. I'd say about 60% of the matches (it's truly only based on the tank/heals in the group) I top killing blows* on my coercer with no issues. I'm not saying I don't see where you're coming from, I'm just saying that your guess is wrong. And also I'm going to call BS on mystics outhealing plates in the bgs. And that's just based off going through t9 screenshots on my coercer, so I don't know if maybe I've seen a lot of crappy chain heals or a lot of really good plate heals, but obviously something isn't right there.</p><p>Just my 2c as someone who has run BG's in every tier on every archtype, while that toon was twinked, all except my wizzie, spells are ridiculous at his level on the PvP server, even getting them crafted would be like 30p-40p in raw mats, and as a backburner toon that's not going to happen.</p><p>edit: * changed parse to killing blows, because in honesty I don't really top the parse but the killing blows is pretty dang easy.</p></blockquote><p>Once I get my real computer up and running again, I'll bet you that I'll beat just about any healer you put me against just purely because of mechanics(Group setups have to be same or very close to the same in terms of classes and player skill for obvious reason), Plates are far easier to play in BG(Saying this as Ssofa the Templar, Also), but shamans can be a force no doubt.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

Also, I started my OPINION on sub T9, I know not everyone will agree, but I have level locked and all that before and that is how I feel about it, Doesn't make me right or wrong.

[bRz]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Also, I started my OPINION on sub T9, I know not everyone will agree, but I have level locked and all that before and that is how I feel about it, Doesn't make me right or wrong.</blockquote><p>I guess you could call that an opinion, sounded more like a petty baseless jab to me. What contribution did that comment have to the thread? None.</p>

[Ralpmet]

<p>Sorry, this can be removed and I'd appreciate it if it was <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>bRz wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Also, I started my OPINION on sub T9, I know not everyone will agree, but I have level locked and all that before and that is how I feel about it, Doesn't make me right or wrong.</blockquote><p>I guess you could call that an opinion, sounded more like a petty baseless jab to me. What contribution did that comment have to the thread? None.</p></blockquote><p>This whole "Well for lower BGs there could be a problem thing", I was just stating I personally couldn't give to craps of if it were balanced or not and I stated why.</p>

[Mosha D'Khan]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Highly favored does not mean set in stone. Killing blows favors assassins because of their killing blow AA which does a huge hit if someone is below 10%. Shamans are favored because of the order of heals. DPS would favor the Preds/Sorcs no doubt because that is what the class is. I've topped DPS in an x2 on a Mystic, My brother has topped DPS in the x2 on a warden. Does it happen lots? No. Also sub T9 is worthless to me and I view it as the people who can't cut it at max level.</p><p> LOOK I R L33t Mystic DPS!</p><p><img src="http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/551/eq2000008.jpg" width="1440" height="850" /></p></blockquote><p>what a fake post, i just did the math of all the damage the other team did and took it off of your damage recieved, you took 145million more damage than the other team did, with that much damage compared to your heals recieved you would have died more than 2 times and not going to even start with the damage because that is even more wrong than could be</p>

[Wigg]

<p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Highly favored does not mean set in stone. Killing blows favors assassins because of their killing blow AA which does a huge hit if someone is below 10%. Shamans are favored because of the order of heals. DPS would favor the Preds/Sorcs no doubt because that is what the class is. I've topped DPS in an x2 on a Mystic, My brother has topped DPS in the x2 on a warden. Does it happen lots? No. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Also sub T9 is worthless to me and I view it as the people who can't cut it at max level.</strong></span></p><p> LOOK I R L33t Mystic DPS!</p></blockquote><p>That.Fans of the lower level BGs often complain about lvl90 BGs being never ending slug fests, with no deaths.  Once every now and then, I am in a 90BG where the tanks rock, healers rock, but all the DPS suck, causing a low rate of death. But the significant majority of matches are not like that, and have plenty of deaths all round.The reality must be that lowbie BG fans are just scared of running into the more experienced EQ2 players, who play the game at the top end, instead of aspiring to <em>"greatness"</em> in the little leagues.</p></blockquote><p>Even when the other DPS is rocking amazing, there might be deaths in YOUR groups but it just means I have to try.  When I run 90s I run with a couple guildies and we are all T2 + Challenger's gear.  Good dps means my heals hit 2-4 million for the match if the other teams healers can keep up.  All in all.. maybe 20 deaths the entire match in a full length Ganak.</p><p>80 BGs on the other hand... hmm.. let me do one really quick.</p><p><a href="http://s1017.photobucket.com/albums/af297/rmatt86/?action=view&current=gears_825k.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af297/rmatt86/gears_825k.jpg" border="0" /></a></p><p>Edited to get image to show.  Also, sorry, but ended up with a Gears instead of a Ganak.. I can work on one of those but typically those don't go the entire match in 80 BGs because you don't have a full Chall set zerker holding the flag with a templar/defiler healing him.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>{0}</blockquote><p>not fake, spirit tap bugged and 1 shotted my group for the lowest of 51M</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>Wigg@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Highly favored does not mean set in stone. Killing blows favors assassins because of their killing blow AA which does a huge hit if someone is below 10%. Shamans are favored because of the order of heals. DPS would favor the Preds/Sorcs no doubt because that is what the class is. I've topped DPS in an x2 on a Mystic, My brother has topped DPS in the x2 on a warden. Does it happen lots? No. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Also sub T9 is worthless to me and I view it as the people who can't cut it at max level.</strong></span></p><p> LOOK I R L33t Mystic DPS!</p></blockquote><p>That.Fans of the lower level BGs often complain about lvl90 BGs being never ending slug fests, with no deaths.  Once every now and then, I am in a 90BG where the tanks rock, healers rock, but all the DPS suck, causing a low rate of death. But the significant majority of matches are not like that, and have plenty of deaths all round.The reality must be that lowbie BG fans are just scared of running into the more experienced EQ2 players, who play the game at the top end, instead of aspiring to <em>"greatness"</em> in the little leagues.</p></blockquote><p>Even when the other DPS is rocking amazing, there might be deaths in YOUR groups but it just means I have to try.  When I run 90s I run with a couple guildies and we are all T2 + Challenger's gear.  Good dps means my heals hit 2-4 million for the match if the other teams healers can keep up.  All in all.. maybe 20 deaths the entire match in a full length Ganak.</p><p>80 BGs on the other hand... hmm.. let me do one really quick.</p><p><a href="http://s1017.photobucket.com/albums/af297/rmatt86/?action=view&current=gears_825k.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af297/rmatt86/gears_825k.jpg" border="0" /></a></p><p>Edited to get image to show.  Also, sorry, but ended up with a Gears instead of a Ganak.. I can work on one of those but typically those don't go the entire match in 80 BGs because you don't have a full Chall set zerker holding the flag with a templar/defiler healing him.</p></blockquote><p>The DPS in that Gears match was pathetic. Only one person parsed anything worth blinking at.Thank you for proving my point. As I said, sucky DPS will result in a low kill count, especially if people get to rely on semi-competent wardens and crusaders/zerkers (OP class types) to reduce the rate of death.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>All of those screenshots are filled with terrible players, a half decent defiler could do more dmg then all of those people.</p>

[Kota]

sounds like a waste of time to me. zone me home so i can Q up again. thanks.