Fighter Balance

[Evette23]

<p>Why did SOE take away the ability for guardians to maximize their dps with a tower shield because it was OP, and then decide to give it to crusaders? That makes no sense. Knight's Stance should be changed to a 7 - 10% bonus to auto attacks no matter what weapons are equipped.</p><p>Also, if crusaders, zerkers, whatever are going to be doing 100 - 150% more damage than a guardian, they should taking at least 50% more damage than a guardian. Most likely several abilities would have to be adjusted, but getting rid of all the +block AAs would be a start.</p>

[Cyrdemac]

<p>And making Guardians the ONLY tank in this game - leaving the other 5 classes somewhere to rot? Won't ever happen, stop dreaming.</p>

[Ryai]

All this argument will likely be null as soon as the planned changes to auto-attack go live, and the offhand restriction is lifted on flurry and AE. Then it will be dual wielders doing far, far more damage. On another note, calling for nerfs to other classes is extremely poor form. Instead, contribute something useful like a suggestion for your class, not to take away something from someone else.

[Aull]

<p>Guards being the only "raid" tank was their only specialty from ROK back. In everyday content and heroic instances all other fighters would smoke a guard. Now guards are not as special anymore. That is all a guard had was being the great raid tank.</p><p>If it was so wrong for guards to have dps with towershield then what is the excuse for any other fighter to have that same overpoweredness in todays game?</p><p>In reality survival should be less and less with the more damage that a fighter could dish out.</p><p>Basically three fighters are the tanks leaving three other fighters to rot. </p>

[Stonestrong]

<p>**</p>

[Shareana]

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=445320&post_id=5403493" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=44532...post_id=5403493</a> There is no reason to be offensive to half of the player base of this game.

[Darkonx]

<p>Nerfing a class into oblivion to make up for some peoples lack of skill isn't a good idea. Guardians are a desired class right now, just not as a DPS class. I'd suggest trying to perfect your playing skills before attempting to delving into balance changes.</p>

[Kahling]

<p>Why are threads like this that are against the forum rules allowed to stay?  They are not constructive, nerfs are bad for any game, calling for nerfs just makes you look more whiney than Eminem.</p><p>Best bet is to start a thread pointing out with data and good reason to why your favorite class needs a boost in an area.</p><p>Im getting fed up with nerf such and such threads with no data to back them up and half [Removed for Content] half baked ideas never looking at the big picture.</p><p>With the expansion far off, no real content in the last update, a huge nerf to certain classes in the last update with players really frustrated over it the last thing this game that I love needs is any more chuffing nerfs. </p><p>Kahling</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>Nerfs are horrible things but classes that actually overpower the game are 1,000 times worse. Any class that can solo a current teir heroic instance is broken. Plain and simple. You don't have to like it.</p><p>The single thing that will make me leave EQ2 is this unbelievable Balance problem. I have played EQ2 for almost 7 years now and I will 100% leave EQ2 when ANY other option is available. The only reason I play now is that it's better than letting my wife go to the mall with the Credit Card.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Nerfing a class into oblivion to make up for some peoples lack of skill isn't a good idea. Guardians are a desired class right now, just not as a DPS class. I'd suggest trying to perfect your playing skills before attempting to delving into balance changes.</p></blockquote><p>Guards are "ok" for tanking raid mobs. Guard tanks have to be skilled and know every little thing about a mob vs a crusader who who is "great' at tanking raid mobs and can be so by just spam buttons. Over half of the crusaders MT out there are only MT because of their class not their skill. It was sort of like that for guard RoK and earlier but not to the degree it is for crusaders more so Pally's.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><a title="ImageShack - Image And Video Hosting" href="http://img291.imageshack.us/i/siggh.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3113/siggh.jpg" border="0" /></a></p><p>As per your forum moderator. Since asking for another class to get nerfed is against the forum guidelines I would like to propse any thread relating to it be locked and the person starting it be suspended. Let's please follow the guidelines and stop crying. CHEERS!</p></blockquote><p>As you can clearly see Evette, calling for nerfs is not allowed. So get back to washing dishes or breast feeding children or whatever it is you do with your time and stop posting and asking for your lack of skill to be made up with by changes to game mechanics.</p></blockquote><p>Thats not really true, you can constructively call for nerfs, I've done it many times.</p>

[Stonestrong]

<p>Well I think I will go with the Moderator's opinion over yours. Aren't you quitting anyway?</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Aren't you quitting anyway?</p></blockquote><p>Yeap, doesn't change that you can constructively demonstrate where nerfs are needed, as the only balanced alternative is stupidly over buffing everyone else.</p><p>A tenant of fighter balance is as you push the classes dps envelope to its extremes you should at the same time be falling to the bottom corner of the survivability envelope.  When you can demonstrate that one sub-class doesn't follow the same rules as the others in this regard, you can either demand we all get to do it, or suggest that perhaps it shouldn't have been gifted to them in the first place.</p><p>I personally think its childish to suggest we should all get to break the rules and have max dps while keeping uncontested block,  I think its bad design that any class could do so.  But I'll accept either plausible sollution, we all get to do it, or no one.</p>

[Kahling]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><a title="ImageShack - Image And Video Hosting" href="http://img291.imageshack.us/i/siggh.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3113/siggh.jpg" border="0" /></a></p><p>As per your forum moderator. Since asking for another class to get nerfed is against the forum guidelines I would like to propse any thread relating to it be locked and the person starting it be suspended. Let's please follow the guidelines and stop crying. CHEERS!</p></blockquote><p>As you can clearly see Evette, calling for nerfs is not allowed. So get back to washing dishes or breast feeding children or whatever it is you do with your time and stop posting and asking for your lack of skill to be made up with by changes to game mechanics.</p></blockquote><p>Thats not really true, you can constructively call for nerfs, I've done it many times.</p></blockquote><p>Im sorry but I have never seen you construcvely call for nerfs, only call for nerfs.  I have never seen you back any of them up, and your post count is 99% calls for nerfs from what I have seen since SF beta.</p>

[Shareana]

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[Shareana]

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[Aull]

<p>What cracks me up is that so many desparately wanted and were pushing for the guard nerf back in ROK. I guess it is ok to call for nerfs as long as it is a guard.</p><p>I don't discriminate against any class. If any class is playing far above and beyond their means then I feel it should be brought to someones attention and proper adjustments should be made. Just like it happened to guardians back in mid/late ROK.</p><p>Atan is correct. " as you push the classes dps envelope to its extremes you should at the same time be falling to the bottom corner of the survivability envelope". Makes total sense and this is how it should be.</p><p>If an sk wants to keep their insain dps then I am all for it, but their survival should nose dive in return. Not just for sk's but any fighter with the "i am dps" mentality. There needs to be a trade off.</p>

[Evette23]

<p><cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Please post your data then that "covers everything" and gives a valid reason for you requesting a nerf and you will get respect in standing up and pointing.  Until then its just whineing.</p><p>BTW, its been proven in another thread that the 20% crit bonus base value balances with Knights Stance.</p><p>What you are asking for is totally random picked out of the air.</p></blockquote><p>I gave valid reasons.</p><p>Crit bonus vs Knight's Stance is irrelevant. Crusaders do too much dps for the amount of defense they get. I don't have a database full of numbers for you to parse through and if I did, no doubt it would be claimed as useless by players that don't want to be fixed. But, if you must have hard numbers that show evidence crusaders are not balanced, look at the dps thread, look at population numbers, look at the last 2 pages of threads in the fighter boards, and run your own parser when you play EQ2. If you think crusaders are balanced you are thick.</p>

[Shareana]

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=445320&post_id=5403667" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=44532...post_id=5403667</a> If you feel the need to find ways to avoid the Language Filter, it is probably better not to use that word.

[Evette23]

<p><cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite> </cite></p><p>If you really want someone objective, like myself, to pay your 'cause' any attention; reframe from calling others names.  I have simply begun to ignore you hence forth, and as the previous poster suggested show your all-encompassing-proof.  If a moderator discourages calling for nerfs, then maybe nerf is not the proper term to use; moreover, one might conclude that the word 'nerf' is the issue.  On that topic, simlpy asking for a review of a skill/spell/AA would be a far more intellectual statement, and this might not draw the criticism the word "nerf' often garners.</p><p>This issue has become so sensative because people see class, any changes, or feeling of being 'lesser than thou' as a personal attack.  As it were, nerfs do not fix so called overpowered classes they often result in classes equal to the state of the pre-TSO SK.  Remember it was a 'nerf' or rather change that made guards the lesser of the 4 plate tanks any many cases, but thats only if one is not adept enough to make up for any preceived weaknesses in ones class.  Imagine how hard it was for a RoK SK or even pre mythical RoK zerker, I played the later and was, able to do my job, but I did finally get mythical and found the class almost simple afterwards.</p><p>Maybe it is best to not be to quick to call for a nerf; because, it may be one own class that receives the next nerf.</p><p>Just a thought.</p></blockquote><p>Feel free to not read my posts. Also, if you didn't notice, I didn't use the word nerf in the OP and a storm of tears followed regardless. I don't know what you mean by "all-encompasing proof." Proof of what? Proof that crusaders are OP? That is an opinion. You want me to prove an opinion? I've given reasons as to why crusaders need to be fixed, and provided some evidence, so whatever.</p><p>Also, you are wrong that nerfs can't fix OP classes. Just because Aerilik failed at properly balancing 6 classes doesn't warrant a blanket statement like that.</p>

[Shareana]

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=445320&post_id=5403676" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=44532...post_id=5403676</a> We do not wish ill will on anyone on these forums.

[Evette23]

<p>If this was simply a matter of class envy I'd just play a shadowknight full time (like most fighters have) and be done with it. That would be much easier than stick around hoping for balance.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>so where do i sign up for 100-150% more dps than a guard as a zerk?</p><p>that's a tall statement. even if they somehow do add in this BS 200% AE/flurry attack from offhanders you don't think that guards will get something similar but possibly yet different? yeap.</p>

[Stonestrong]

<p><cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If this was simply a matter of class envy I'd just play a shadowknight full time (like most fighters have) and be done with it. That would be much easier than stick around hoping for balance.</p></blockquote><p>I'd say it's more a matter of player skill envy. I'd bet the farm you tried to play a SK full-time and still couldn't cut it. The next logical step is to come to the forums and complain. It's not fair! If I can't do it then nobody should be allowed to!</p>

[LygerT]

<p><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If this was simply a matter of class envy I'd just play a shadowknight full time (like most fighters have) and be done with it. That would be much easier than stick around hoping for balance.</p></blockquote><p>I'd say it's more a matter of player skill envy. I'd bet the farm you tried to play a SK full-time and still couldn't cut it. The next logical step is to come to the forums and complain. It's not fair! If I can't do it then nobody should be allowed to!</p></blockquote><p>don't kid yourself. it's not that difficult to play ANY class in this game. in fact if you can find this board, figure out how to make an account and sign in i'm pretty sure anyone can play a knight class.</p>

[Stonestrong]

<p><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If this was simply a matter of class envy I'd just play a shadowknight full time (like most fighters have) and be done with it. That would be much easier than stick around hoping for balance.</p></blockquote><p>I'd say it's more a matter of player skill envy. I'd bet the farm you tried to play a SK full-time and still couldn't cut it. The next logical step is to come to the forums and complain. It's not fair! If I can't do it then nobody should be allowed to!</p></blockquote><p>don't kid yourself. it's not that difficult to play ANY class in this game. in fact if you can find this board, figure out how to make an account and sign in i'm pretty sure anyone can play a knight class.</p></blockquote><p>Anyone can play it sure. Anyone can play any class. I'm talking about playing to the extent that is top end and has people complaining to nerf it. Joe blow with decent/average gear and skill isn't going to do anything significant to have people crying for nerfs. Somebody with endgame gear in a hardcore guild playing the class to its potential isn't the norm and shouldn't be used as a point to argue nerfs.</p>

[Shareana]

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=445320&post_id=5403717" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=44532...post_id=5403717</a> There is no reason to be vulgar.

[Evette23]

<p><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>so where do i sign up for 100-150% more dps than a guard as a zerk?</p><p>that's a tall statement. even if they somehow do add in this BS 200% AE/flurry attack from offhanders you don't think that guards will get something similar but possibly yet different? yeap.</p></blockquote><p>Yea, you're probably right for the most part. My numbers are just for illustration, and I have seen guardian parses of 48k dps (with no shield btw), but then again... I've seen shadowknight parses of 80k dps and the more mobs there are, the more the gap widens. Hell, the more mobs there are, the more survivability crusaders have compared to guardians.</p>

[Evette23]

<p>As far as the gear and group setup comparison (let's be real, EQ2 is easy to play and requires only basic generic gaming skills and average intelligence), the further you get away from end-game gear/group setups/epic mobs the more significant the imbalances between tanks becomes.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>there is examples that many people don't take into account which are basic tools like cure pots, food/drink, ammo, temp potions, quested clickies etc that really do make a bit of difference in how well someone plays their class which is generally the difference i see. it's not difficult to point out a plate tank wearing leather and moaning that they need more survivability in order to compete against a raid geared main tank.</p><p>knowing that stats have mousovers should be pretty self explanatory. unlike "dude, how come you have 230% crit and only 45% double attack, 7% crit bonus and 5% potency?"</p>

[Morgue]

<p><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>there is examples that many people don't take into account which are basic tools like cure pots, food/drink, ammo, temp potions, quested clickies etc that really do make a bit of difference in how well someone plays their class which is generally the difference i see. it's not difficult to point out a plate tank wearing leather and moaning that they need more survivability in order to compete against a raid geared main tank.</p><p>knowing that stats have mousovers should be pretty self explanatory. unlike "dude, how come you have 230% crit and only 45% double attack, 7% crit bonus and 5% potency?"</p></blockquote><p>agree with ya, on the other tools certainly,  My zerker is a 90 provi, 450tinker, and I have a 90alc (my 90coercer). In addition, I have keep item I find with some sort of clicky effect that might be useful:  manastone, fear charm from SoF, earring of solstice, hadden's earring, and sharpening stones to name a few. </p><p>And general knowledge of the game does go a long well, akin to your second paragraph.</p>

[Shareana]

<p>This is why "nerf" posts are not appreciated nor allowed here.  They turn into a bickering fest. </p><p>This is now closed.</p>