Consolidated List of Broken Guardian Stuff II [Archive]

View Full Version : Consolidated List of Broken Guardian Stuff II

dalponis

08-26-2010, 03:34 AM

It looks like it's time to make our very own "Consolidated List of Broken Guardian Stuff II". <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=436303" target="_blank">The old list is just too outdated</a>.Red issues major problemsYellow issues moderate problemsGreen issues minor problems---Issue IProblem:The Guardian mythical just doesn't cut it. Used to be unique and nice before the STA-line nerfSolution:Increase the proc amounts or give us something usefulSome ideas to bring the Guardian mythical to par:• Increase the damage and damage absorption component on the proc, or rewrite the absorption to be a permanent stat• Add an effect that encourages Guardians to dual wield, and still get to use shield combat arts (Block, Tower of Stone)• Add an effect that encourages Guardians to use a shield, by increaseing weapon damageIssue II - Combat Arts• Sentry Watch - Increase duration• Taunting Assault - Lower the cast time to be in-line with other abilitiesIssue III - Fighter AA• Consummate Defender - Change it to increase all the bonuses of the defensive stance, to make it at least a little attractive.• Riposte Mastery - Change it to something, anything worth taking by fightersIssue IV - Warrior AA• Executioner's Fury - Worthless. It would be (more) useful if the effect did not dispel• Dragoon's Reflex - Not useful, since it forces the Guardian do to nothing, damage wise. Change it to decreases attack speed/casting speed while active.• Gladiator's Revenge - The shield block associated with this ability is too small. Ten points nets us only 12% block chance. Increase this to 2.5% block change per point for a total of 25% with ten points spent. How come we have 27% block chance for fifteen points and Paladin's have 39% block chance for six points?• Unshakeable - The mitigation associated with this ability is too small. Ten points gives us only 500 mitigation? Change to increases effectiveness of worn armour• Arena Endurance - Worthless. Redesign or increase amounts• Absorbing Blows - Worthless. Redesign or change to control effects and increase amounts• Veteran's Shielding - 5% physical mitigation bonus to the defensive stance was good long ago, not anymore. 10-15% physical mitigation bonus to the defensive stance would be (more) in line• Cry of the Warrior - Make the ability land much easier and please look into fixing it as it does not lock the mob for the full eight seconds of the ability as it is supposed to when usedIssue V - Guardian AA• Got your Back - It's just not needed• Block - Remove the dispel on CA cast, like the Stonewall and Gut Roar, or remove the casting time from it completely• Enhanced: Unyielding Will - Allow for lower recast rate(currently caps at 450seconds), mulitple triggers, etc.• Hateful Assault - This ability is worthless unless the cast time of the skill is lowered. It should, with five points, turn into a blue AOE. Or it could be overhauled to add something to our raid-wide abilityRemember, this is a work-in-progress list. Please post things you'd like to add/change.List updated: 2011-04-23 @ 18:16 EST

dalponis

08-26-2010, 03:35 AM

The new Consolidated List of Broken Guardian Stuff list is created. Post suggestions/comments, I'll update the list as nessecary. Can a moderator please <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=436303" target="_blank">unpin the old one</a> and <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=485643" target="_blank">pin this one</a>?

arksun

08-26-2010, 09:43 AM

When everyone realizes this is a DPS oriented game and move on from trying to fix Guardian TPS, the faster a solution can come about.In short give Guardians ST dps that equates to > of that of the crusader counterpart. Remove arena endurance from the STA line and mimic Knights Stance in the final option, that way both warrior class's will benefit from it.No raid leader or group is going to take a tank into a zone that parses 20k, when they can grab an AE tank as an SK who parses 40k. It's just not going to happen, everyone needs to wake up and understand this.It does not matter if you parse 1 billion TPS, its all about burning a mob down and dps, look at healer dps and utility dps this xpac, everyone else is going up.... But Guardians still want to be the king of standing there hitting 3 taunts and taking no damage.There is no difference in survivability anymore between the plate tanks, its a null point. We have the worst mythical out of all the plate class's, we have the lowest ST and AoE dps of all the plate tanks.Increase our dps to that of at least 1/4 > of the AoE tanks on ST target, easiest way give us a version of knights stance in either the shadows tree (warrior) or remove arena endurance and replace it with that. We all know that is the worst AA you can possibly pick it does nothing for raiding or heroic play.

arksun

08-26-2010, 09:47 AM

These Guardian changes coming down the pipe will do nothing to insure a spot for a raiding Guardian, and it will be another year before the only mechanics dev we have can probaby rethink it. Please stop crying about TPS, the reality of this game is centered around DPS now, it has been since Shadows, and its true today.

steveatk

08-26-2010, 11:15 AM

I appreciate that you've put in the time to create this post but I'm afraid that you don't understand a lot of the mechanics at play here. There are too many errors to correct without simply re-writing the thread (quick examples.. block mechanics, mitigation caps, dragoon's reflexes, 25% dmg reduction on myth!!?!, unyielding will).Also, the change in roles that you mentioned in your second paragraph are not going to happen. They are simply suggestions by a player (Atan) in another thread about a possible direction that SOE could take the fighters if they wanted to. It was an offering of an idea, nothing more.We could use a few tweaks to damage soaking abilities just to put us ahead of the pack again (stone skin group proc mentioned by Xelgad is a very good start), some decent AOE threat skills for instance runners, a large increase in single target dps while using a shield and an even bigger increase in dps when dual wielding.

Landiin

08-26-2010, 12:47 PM

Yes, simple we need a crap load more DPS, other wise we are still stuck in T5.

dalponis

08-26-2010, 03:35 PM

Okay, thanks guys. So far I was able to fix up the list, some. Let me start by going down, post by post.<cite>Forsho@Guk wrote:</cite> <blockquote>When everyone realizes this is a DPS oriented game and move on from trying to fix Guardian TPS, the faster a solution can come about.In short give Guardians ST dps that equates to > of that of the crusader counterpart. Remove arena endurance from the STA line and mimic Knights Stance in the final option, that way both warrior class's will benefit from it.No raid leader or group is going to take a tank into a zone that parses 20k, when they can grab an AE tank as an SK who parses 40k. It's just not going to happen, everyone needs to wake up and understand this.It does not matter if you parse 1 billion TPS, its all about burning a mob down and dps, look at healer dps and utility dps this xpac, everyone else is going up.... But Guardians still want to be the king of standing there hitting 3 taunts and taking no damage.There is no difference in survivability anymore between the plate tanks, its a null point. We have the worst mythical out of all the plate class's, we have the lowest ST and AoE dps of all the plate tanks.Increase our dps to that of at least 1/4 > of the AoE tanks on ST target, easiest way give us a version of knights stance in either the shadows tree (warrior) or remove arena endurance and replace it with that. We all know that is the worst AA you can possibly pick it does nothing for raiding or heroic play.</blockquote> So you're saying it's about damage, sure, that works. I fixed up Issue I, so it reflects that. No more does it mention agro, but instead damage. <cite>Forsho@Guk wrote:</cite> <blockquote>These Guardian changes coming down the pipe will do nothing to insure a spot for a raiding Guardian, and it will be another year before the only mechanics dev we have can probaby rethink it. Please stop crying about TPS, the reality of this game is centered around DPS now, it has been since Shadows, and its true today.</blockquote> I'm confused here, were you talking about the chanages <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=150&topic_id=482790" target="_blank">Xelgad had</a>? <cite>Aerin@Splitpaw wrote:</cite> <blockquote>I appreciate that you've put in the time to create this post but I'm afraid that you don't understand a lot of the mechanics at play here. There are too many errors to correct without simply re-writing the thread (quick examples.. block mechanics, mitigation caps, dragoon's reflexes, 25% dmg reduction on myth!!?!, unyielding will).We could use a few tweaks to damage soaking abilities just to put us ahead of the pack again (stone skin group proc mentioned by Xelgad is a very good start), some decent AOE threat skills for instance runners, a large increase in single target dps while using a shield and an even bigger increase in dps when dual wielding.</blockquote> Yeah, I touched on the "block" ability for a bit. It sucks that it is dispelled by a combat art, unlike similar abilities that other tanks have.I guess the 25% was too much to ask for a buff that's not always on, so I reworded that. But you are correct, Unyielding Will is still the worst death prevent in the game. I feel that's a minor issue, as to why it's green.I didn't touch on the mitigation issue. Give me some things to write, I'll write it.Yeah, our damage soaking isn't that good either, I'll work on that. <cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, simple we need a crap load more DPS, other wise we are still stuck in T5.</blockquote>See above.

arksun

08-26-2010, 04:44 PM

Exactly replace TPS with DPS, with all our normal tools we have now +/- some tweaks and viola. I wasn't talking about xelgad's changes, I am talking about in general every class can push out serious numbers. I have seen fury's hit 80k parses, inquiz do another 80k, bards doing 50k... the list goes on and on. The game is based around dps, and this is the major flaw in our design, we cannot hold on to the old ideas of hitting taunts and standing proud with our shield.Its about doing our "main" job but also complementing every other aspect needed in a heroic or raid group. We should be viable in all aspects not just parsing "X" tps .... any tank can hold agro, what sets them apart is in the dps area, and as kings of single target we should shine in that.

dalponis

08-31-2010, 04:17 PM

Another annoucement: I've updated the list. Let me know if you guys think it needs something else, or should be tuned up.

Terron

09-01-2010, 09:08 AM

<cite>dalponis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Issue VII - Warrior AA• Executioner's Fury - Worthless. It would be (more) useful if the effect did not dispel</blockquote>This used to be quite useful when soloing heroics (only green ones if 3 up of course). Several times I have been beaten down to 50% by a heroic faster than I could reduce its health, then this kicked in and turned the battle around. But lone heroics are now very rare so it's usefulness has declined.I have always thought that this was designed for soloing when you do not have a healer around to turn it off. Having one ability specifically for soloing seems not unreasonable.

Zivgar

09-08-2010, 06:50 PM

I made another post about this, but one way to increase our DPS is to increase the gains in the Slaughtering Line on the Guardian Tree.I suggested increase per rank from 6% to 10% and for Taunting Blows from 4% to 8%. You can work the numbers to increase it more if needed.For DPS you need to balance the Guardian around the Paladin. I feel that a Guardian should do more single target damage than a Paladin just as a Paladin do more AE damage than a Guardian. Make that even and it should make most Guardians happy.The bottom line is Guardians just want to do enough damage to help provide protection for their allies. We don't want to be a SK or Zerker, if we did we would play that class.

Valiantsword

09-08-2010, 09:47 PM

Dragoons reflex in its current state is stupid , for 12 sec we can survive but cant dps NO other class has a survival ability that u have to stop DPSing and just taunt its dumb. Also using a sheild our dps is dirt when i have to sheild up in raid i parse between 8-13k however if i can duel wield my parse goes to over 20k other tanks can leave their sheilds on and parse 20k and also remain fully defensive how is that even close to fair or even ? Fix the sword and board DPS for Guards plz.

Zivgar

09-09-2010, 02:10 AM

<cite>Valiantsword wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dragoons reflex in its current state is stupid , for 12 sec we can survive but cant dps NO other class has a survival ability that u have to stop DPSing and just taunt its dumb. Also using a sheild our dps is dirt when i have to sheild up in raid i parse between 8-13k however if i can duel wield my parse goes to over 20k other tanks can leave their sheilds on and parse 20k and also remain fully defensive how is that even close to fair or even ? Fix the sword and board DPS for Guards plz.</blockquote>I always thought it was stupid that you couldn't use combat arts while using Dragoon reflex. That is why I never got it. Though I could careless since I like the other warrior tree options.If a Paladin in simular gear can parse 20k with a sword and board, than a Guardian should be able to parse 20k using a sword and shield. That is what balance is called. They are both defensive tanks their DPS should be about the same.

Boli32

09-09-2010, 05:15 AM

<cite>Zivgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Valiantsword wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dragoons reflex in its current state is stupid , for 12 sec we can survive but cant dps NO other class has a survival ability that u have to stop DPSing and just taunt its dumb. Also using a sheild our dps is dirt when i have to sheild up in raid i parse between 8-13k however if i can duel wield my parse goes to over 20k other tanks can leave their sheilds on and parse 20k and also remain fully defensive how is that even close to fair or even ? Fix the sword and board DPS for Guards plz.</blockquote>I always thought it was stupid that you couldn't use combat arts while using Dragoon reflex. That is why I never got it. Though I could careless since I like the other warrior tree options.If a Paladin in simular gear can parse 20k with a sword and board, than a Guardian should be able to parse 20k using a sword and shield. That is what balance is called. They are both defensive tanks their DPS should be about the same.</blockquote>Most of a paladin's DPS comes from procs. Reflect is another matter but mainly its procs. Unless you stop a crusader from critting on spells they will always be able to proc more things than warriors due to the disparity of spell procs >> combat art procs.

dalponis

09-09-2010, 01:06 PM

<cite>Valiantsword wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dragoons reflex in its current state is stupid , for 12 sec we can survive but cant dps NO other class has a survival ability that u have to stop DPSing and just taunt its dumb. Also using a sheild our dps is dirt when i have to sheild up in raid i parse between 8-13k however if i can duel wield my parse goes to over 20k other tanks can leave their sheilds on and parse 20k and also remain fully defensive how is that even close to fair or even ? Fix the sword and board DPS for Guards plz.</blockquote>I wrote about Dragoon's Reflexes, but I took it out... It does suck. It's forcing us to do less damage for meer melee protection. I'll put it back in. Tell me what you think.

Zivgar

09-09-2010, 03:16 PM

Boli32I would never want to lower a Paladins DPS, but you have to agree that Guardians need to be on par with them. However they need to do that then they should do that.I think that is a much better idea for Dragoon Reflex than what it is now. Would I like it better than your suggestion? Yes, but I feel that lowering the Guardians attack speed/ DPS in that stance is more balancing. So I like what you put, at least now we can attack, but at a lower rate than normal.

watevah

09-14-2010, 02:18 PM

Dalponis' account expired. He's not going to pay for this game just so he can try to help the developers have a topic to try and figure out what is wrong with Guardians.My thoughts? Redo all the classes from the ground up. Only way at this point, since it's all so buggered.

watevah

10-12-2010, 07:06 PM

We need class uniqueness again. Since this game is going more and more PVP, the classes are getting less and less unique.Guardians have nothing very much unique about them. Well, the lack of DPS, I guess...

Bruener

10-12-2010, 08:54 PM

<cite>watevah wrote:</cite><blockquote>We need class uniqueness again. Since this game is going more and more PVP, the classes are getting less and less unique.Guardians have nothing very much unique about them. Well, the lack of DPS, I guess...</blockquote>Yeah, nevermind the massive amount of stoneskins....

Landiin

10-13-2010, 11:58 AM

Yea stoneskins really set us apart in PVP! Troll harder troll boy.

Shareana

10-14-2010, 04:33 AM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=445320&post_id=5435457" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=44532...post_id=5435457</a> Insults are not necessary on these forums...

Wasuna

10-15-2010, 11:18 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>watevah wrote:</cite><blockquote>We need class uniqueness again. Since this game is going more and more PVP, the classes are getting less and less unique.Guardians have nothing very much unique about them. Well, the lack of DPS, I guess...</blockquote>Yeah, nevermind the massive amount of stoneskins....</blockquote>Survivability is about staying alive. Nothing (and I mean NOTHING) else matters. If your alive all is good. If your dead all is bad. Bloodletter is 100% the best survivabilty boost in the game. It trumps anything a Guardian can do in any way shape or form. Cry all you want but staying alive is the key and SK's do that better than ANYBODY.

bishoph

10-15-2010, 05:09 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yea stoneskins really set us apart in PVP! Troll harder troll boy.</blockquote>the Stonekins do not mean as much as a lot of people think. they are nice, but do not give an edge at all for the class. I was a Guardian, I am now a Zerk. Looking at pass parces, fights where I used a shield and ToS, as a guard I took more damage than I do as a zerk DW'n. The always on 5% less damage, addes up a lot more for a class, than ToS come close to. the Paladin who has less gear then me (and had less masters when I was a guard) took even less damage doto the 10% damage reduction from the Myth buff. the Zerk and the Paly both put out a lot more damage than the Guard dose too. I can say with out a doubt, by looking at damage incoming numbers, Paladins and Zerks, take a lot less than a Guard dose with a Shield on and using all the "OP" stone skins.

Melendiil

11-26-2010, 07:54 AM

its really hard to keep playing with how things are. Guards still are the weaksauces. And im in [Removed for Content] raidgear and have been a raider on him for years.Chim

Raahl

04-12-2011, 10:15 AM

Yes I know this is an old post.Having retired my Guardian to an alt, I am unsure of what the current problems are with Guardians in DoV. Could one of the current Guardian MT's start a new issues thread or update this one.Seeing that we will never be the top DPS class tank wise, we should be the defensive leader! Personally I'd like to see the Wis mitigation buff changed to a Crit Mit buff. Along with Guardian specific Crit Mit abilities.

Emlar_from_Halas

04-13-2011, 07:03 AM

dps wise, I don't think we suffer that much in DoV.At least with DoV stuff.On the critic mitig side of things, we already have Critical Bulwark (Heroic AA) which can be of great value in MT group.But your suggestion, is an interesting one. Wis line is of no interest currently and such a change would make it more appealing. But it would also require to update Belly Smash to remove the "knockd down" requirement (which has been asked/beged many times already) in order to provide some interest . BTW, there's a fair number of red adornments that procs a mitig debuff and don't require the mob to be knocked down.

Raahl

04-13-2011, 10:46 AM

<cite>Emlar@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>dps wise, I don't think we suffer that much in DoV.At least with DoV stuff.On the critic mitig side of things, we already have Critical Bulwark (Heroic AA) which can be of great value in MT group.But your suggestion, is an interesting one. Wis line is of no interest currently and such a change would make it more appealing. But it would also require to update Belly Smash to remove the "knockd down" requirement (which has been asked/beged many times already) in order to provide some interest . BTW, there's a fair number of red adornments that procs a mitig debuff and don't require the mob to be knocked down.</blockquote>I've been working on getting AA on my Guardian. He's woefully behind.I'll check out Critical Bulwark.But I agree, after DoV my Guardian seemed to be pretty playable. At least solo wise. I've only done a couple groups and usually only to help members get updates for mythic buffs or chrono zones.Something needs to be done with the Wis line as it's pretty much a joke from day one and with the recent changes even more so. Also I'm wondering if our temporary buffs are now less usefull because of the changes.

Emlar_from_Halas

04-14-2011, 04:41 AM

They were (some may argue) and are still very usefull, at least from a raid perspective.Most of deaths come from flurry or multiple attack. So, despite a quite high avoidance (40%+ block chance), you may still have a couple or triple of hits. Increasing our mitigation is one element to stay alive. Even with diminish return, I still benefit from an additional 1500 mitig. Ans it should be even more important against challenge raids, but we will be starting them only next week. So I will leave more advanced guardians to tell you more about this aspect.Not only Battle cry provides a substantial mitig increase but, coupled with Critical Bulkwark, it increases my group critical mitig by 12% (I put only 8 AAS in it) for 50 secs, with less than 20 secs reuse.And since I'm quite defensive, I admit that I spent 10 AAs in Emboldened and 5 AAs in Guardian's Will to improve Hunker Down. I always cast Hunker down before pulling a named <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />

Soul_Dreamer

04-14-2011, 07:57 AM

Hmm, I always cast Battle cry instead of hunker so the group has extra mit incase a Melee AOE goes off on inc, each to their own though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />The only "Broken" thing I can think of off hand now is Sentinal, with the change to sentry watch so it doesn't kill, this ability could do with being changed in the same way, you simply cannot use it on encounter where mobs have a Melee AOE because of the absorb component. Just a straight up melee damage reduction on 1 target in your group would be nice and take away the guardian absorbing the damage.

Wasuna

04-14-2011, 02:36 PM

I cast Battle Cry for years before I pulled. Just last night I stated with Hunker Dow since I have the 10% damage reduction Heroic AA for that. It helped a ton more with a flat damage reduction than battle cry even though I have the 15% Crit Mit on it. I wasn't getting criticals anyway in the x2 with my crit mit so Hunker Down was the better choice until the debuffs got applied.With my current reuse I can have HD or Battle Cry up all the time and throw in stone skins as needed.I don't think it's really broken but I sure would like a faster casting speed on Tower of Stone. I use Perfect Counter and Last man Standing all the time but I shun ToS since by the time I notice a spike and cast it, I'm either clear through healing or dead.

Vyle28

04-15-2011, 09:49 AM

As a raid MT, still really annoyed with my dps vs. my offtank. I'm usually hovering between 40-50k unless I go DW, then I'm only in the 50-60k range, except a few fights I've spiked in the 70's. Our SK is a beast, has around the same gear as me, and can parse while using a shield consistently in the 70-100k range, and some aoe fights I've seen him well over 100k. Would be nice to have a slight increase in dps while using a shield. We sacrafice too much survivability while DW.

Vyle28

04-15-2011, 09:50 AM

Just doesn't make since that one tank class has to DW weapons in order to do 20-40k less dps than an SK using a shield.

Raahl

04-15-2011, 11:16 AM

Thanks for all the replies. Sounds like were doing ok as a class. Only a few issues and the everpresent DPS imbalance. If it wasn't for the over abundance of Tanks and the extreme usefulness of my dirge on our raids, I might get out and play my Guardian more.

aislynn00

05-17-2011, 07:48 AM

Guardians need more DPS/hate generation, especially in defensive with a shield. The avoidance changes that went live with the current expansion are hurting guardians, berserkers, and to a lesser extent, bruisers more than the remaining tanks.We don't have anything even remotely close to the level of strikethrough of monks. Unlike crusaders, our DPS/hate generation doesn't derive significantly, let alone primarily, from spells, which aren't affected at all by the massive amount of uncontested block and parry raid mobs sport these days. Bruisers are able to dual-wield while in a defensive setup; warriors, conversely, get nothing to compensate for the loss of dual-wield DPS/hate generation when we go into full tank mode. Hence, we are left struggling when high-DPS mages and scouts go all-out, especially in the earlier stages of a boss fight, vs any kind of trash, or after hate wipes. Experienced Insight is certainly a great help, when available, but it frequently isn't enough.If giving guardians the equivalent of Knight's Stance while in defensive isn't in the cards, then how about a hate proc tied to defensive stance with a shield requirement that triggers off every melee attack (auto-attack and CA's alike), generating 30% of the damage of the attack as pure hate. Another option would be a lower reuse on Experienced Insight. Yet another option: Add a massive pure hate component to Decimate, Slam, or the like.

aislynn00

05-17-2011, 07:55 AM

Sentry Watch should have its ranged increased. 20m just doesn't cut it when you're tanking giants and the like; the people you want to protect are frequently out of range, trying to minimize incoming AE damage. I would propose upping the range to 50m. It isn't as though the ability in itself is overpowered when it works, so I don't see any issues there.Sentinel should be changed in such a fashion that it doesn't transfer damage to the guardian but solely affords damage reduction to the target. Currently, the ability is able to outright kill a guardian who uses it on raids (the damage transferred bypasses mitigation).Our HP buffs have been marginalized by the massive global HP pool boost in the current expansion. Thus, all our HP and Stamina buffs should be doubled, or they should be converted to straight percentage-based HP bonuses. The same goes for a lot of priest HP buffs, by the way.

Yimway

05-19-2011, 01:47 PM

35 meters should be enough, and yes its a specific issue with large models like giants.

Nuloh

06-01-2011, 02:58 AM

Yup, guards are more than fine now.Dont suppose you could whine on behalf of other classes that you screwed over in the clamour to be the only tank of choice?

aislynn00

06-01-2011, 08:34 PM

<cite>Nuloh wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yup, guards are more than fine now.Dont suppose you could whine on behalf of other classes that you screwed over in the clamour to be the only tank of choice?</blockquote>Your post count of two since 2007 is astonishing. Four years, and this is what you finally chose to post?At any rate, I'd love to see you explain who was screwed over. While we got decent AA abilities this expansion, so did the other fighters, so nothing much changed, balancewise, except paladins and brawlers becoming even more overpowered. Guardian remain the weakest fighter class in the game, as we have been since the end of RoK when the second mythical nerf hit home. The fact that we are able to tank doesn't change that, 1) we don't have significantly more survivability than any other fighter class and we have less than some, 2) our stoneskin abilities aren't necessary to do any content in the game, 3) we have the lowest DPS of all fighter classes, and 4) we have the worst excuse for utility of all fighter classes.I would love for every raid instance to have one single named mob that required guardian stoneskins--you know, a few AE's that hit for 300K+ damage and don't allow you to joust; that kind of thing. If guardians were actually necessary for raiding, all the shortcomings of the class would be more than acceptable.Or, as an alternative, if all fighters are supposed to be able to tank the toughest content, I would also be perfectly happy with having the best single-target DPS of all fighters while dual-wielding, the best hate generation of all fighters when swapping to a shield, tweaks to some of our abilities (e.g., extended range of Sentry Watch, no damage transferral from Sentinel, longer duration of Guardian Sphere stoneskin procs, Unyielding Will changed to a maintained buff), as well as a potent raid-wide buff (e.g., 2500 HP, 10 Crit Mit, 10 Crit Chance).That is to say, either we get a niche that is ours and ours alone, or we just share the raid tank role with all the other fighters while also getting to enjoy their overpowered DPS, survivability, buffs, and utility packages.Or, I guess, we continue as we have the last two and a half years and remain the red-headed stepchild of the archetype.

Brildean

06-21-2011, 02:36 PM

Unshakable grip, dov endline,, can't be cast while running, can we get this changed to be like all our other buffs.. and castable while moving.

lCUBANOl

09-01-2011, 04:18 PM

<cite>Karnos@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nuloh wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yup, guards are more than fine now.Dont suppose you could whine on behalf of other classes that you screwed over in the clamour to be the only tank of choice?</blockquote>Your post count of two since 2007 is astonishing. Four years, and this is what you finally chose to post?At any rate, I'd love to see you explain who was screwed over. While we got decent AA abilities this expansion, so did the other fighters, so nothing much changed, balancewise, except paladins and brawlers becoming even more overpowered. Guardian remain the weakest fighter class in the game, as we have been since the end of RoK when the second mythical nerf hit home. The fact that we are able to tank doesn't change that, 1) we don't have significantly more survivability than any other fighter class and we have less than some, 2) our stoneskin abilities aren't necessary to do any content in the game, 3) we have the lowest DPS of all fighter classes, and 4) we have the worst excuse for utility of all fighter classes.I would love for every raid instance to have one single named mob that required guardian stoneskins--you know, a few AE's that hit for 300K+ damage and don't allow you to joust; that kind of thing. If guardians were actually necessary for raiding, all the shortcomings of the class would be more than acceptable.Or, as an alternative, if all fighters are supposed to be able to tank the toughest content, I would also be perfectly happy with having the best single-target DPS of all fighters while dual-wielding, the best hate generation of all fighters when swapping to a shield, tweaks to some of our abilities (e.g., extended range of Sentry Watch, no damage transferral from Sentinel, longer duration of Guardian Sphere stoneskin procs, Unyielding Will changed to a maintained buff), as well as a potent raid-wide buff (e.g., 2500 HP, 10 Crit Mit, 10 Crit Chance).That is to say, either we get a niche that is ours and ours alone, or we just share the raid tank role with all the other fighters while also getting to enjoy their overpowered DPS, survivability, buffs, and utility packages.Or, I guess, we continue as we have the last two and a half years and remain the red-headed stepchild of the archetype.</blockquote>New guardians disregard everything in this post, if you have questions about the guardians potential fill free to PM me. We have an awesome class.

Romulis

10-27-2011, 12:27 PM

first off let me say im no pro at guardian. my personal guard is lv 41, but what i do wanna say is i see alot of complaints about the dps output of guards. my actual question is what else are guards for..? its always been my understanding since the game released that guards are the rock, the tank that can take large hits that other tanks would have problems living thru. On my heals i love healing guards because their health doesnt spike like other tanking classes and they never have a problem with threat ever period. idk i dont see alot of guards around anymore because 90% of people want to either A.) see big numbers from their fighter or B.) want to see big numbers on a dps class there is only a small amount of people who actually level a toon to tank. i personally started a guard to tank because thats what i like to do and i dont think any guild will turn down somone who wants to tank because their dps is crappy...... thats just imo tho

aislynn00

11-26-2011, 02:18 PM

<cite>Romulis@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>first off let me say im no pro at guardian. my personal guard is lv 41, but what i do wanna say is i see alot of complaints about the dps output of guards. my actual question is what else are guards for..? its always been my understanding since the game released that guards are the rock, the tank that can take large hits that other tanks would have problems living thru. On my heals i love healing guards because their health doesnt spike like other tanking classes and they never have a problem with threat ever period. idk i dont see alot of guards around anymore because 90% of people want to either A.) see big numbers from their fighter or B.) want to see big numbers on a dps class there is only a small amount of people who actually level a toon to tank. i personally started a guard to tank because thats what i like to do and i dont think any guild will turn down somone who wants to tank because their dps is crappy...... thats just imo tho</blockquote>Guardians have been "the rock" during some phases of the game, especially in the original content and the RoK expansion.Currently, though, while guardians are probably the third-best tank in challenge-mode raid settings, they are light years behind bruisers and monks in every single area, including survivability, DPS, hate generation, and utility.In other words, with very few exceptions, there isn't much of a reason to bring a guardian over a brawler unless the guardian is a much better player.There are mobs you simply can't tank as a guardian while brawlers get the job done due to their massive survivability advantage. As for hate generation, while guardians are able to manage vs boss mobs, where damage dealer DPS is usually split between the named and adds, Drunder challenge-mode trash is another matter entirely. You try holding aggro vs a wizard dealing 400K+ DPS while you're sitting below 100K wearing a shield--and believe you me, you need that shield. You'd better hope your hate transferrers are right behind that wizard, that he's got 50% hate reduction, and that you've got 100% hate gain. Meanwhile, the dual-wielding brawler pumping out 200K DPS will be leagues ahead of everyone else on the hate meter while being easier to heal.So, tanks care about DPS because it is necessary to hold aggro, and because we've got to bring something to a raid when top survivability isn't it any longer.