Relic and Defilers vs Us

[Shredderr]

<p>Is it I or are we that much a weaker healer than Defilers . Just when I thought wardens were just the main ones out healing me in Relic due to their heals ticking and critting higher , I have beed grouping with defilers and wow they heal for more than wardens . When I am feeling like i did a good job with 500k to 700 k a defiler in my group will have healed for 1.2 mil to 2 mil + . are their spells that much superior to ours or what could it be ?</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Many people of different classes outhealing you . . . Mystics generally having no healing problems . . . I'll let you figure it out.</p>

[Shredderr]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Many people of different classes outhealing you . . . Mystics generally having no healing problems . . . I'll let you figure it out.</p></blockquote><p>Then let me and dont post a stupid and vague remark . 2 classes didnt say I had a problem healing we can win with other healers posting higher total heals , wardens and defilers . maybe you have higher total heals than these classes on average . try reading smart guy ... with glasses .</p>

[Gisallo]

<p>I think he was reading, he was just being nice and not simply coming out and saying the players were better not the class. You were vague as to whether you were talking raid, instance or pvp but on average the only class that should be out healing a mystic is a defiler.   This is simply based on how the mechanics of heals work.  Wards prevent damage and with proper spec, spells, gear and the use of all of the above if you are in a group with any non-shaman healer outside of a raid there should not be enough left over for them to heal that they would end up being higher than you.  OCCASSIONALLY outside of a raid you will have a case you will be out healed by a non-shaman on a crazy fight where there are either crazy AE's that crush the group ward or where every single mob in a room gets aggro'd somehow and is smacking everyone in the group (causing a similar effect).  Even that has changed a little bit though with heals being attached to the termination of the group ward and various proc's out gear can have.  Beyond these off experiences though if you are being regularly out healed by non-shaman's the other players is either one of the best in class or there is something not quite right on the Mystics end (large gear discrepancy,  inappropriate spec, or yes the mystic simply isn't pushing the right buttons.)  </p>

[Shredderr]

<p>Ok I am not talking about raiding I dont raid I just noticed during a relic fight thats what I am referring too and our wards dont count against this focus damage I know so in this instance is how druids namely wardens out heal me seems they can last up to 400 points straight on the relic np and keep a group up . But in this situation he got the relic first died once i got it then we kept it till game over but the whole time our group never left the green just the one taking the relic damage and I know I kept both my group wards up at all times healed myself whenever I wasnt green or knew i was about to tick warded myself when I was green for taking player damage and I had 600 k healed and the defiler had 2 mil . Now i just hit 90 a couple days ago but I was wondering if some of their heals/wards takw priority over ours . I know mystics can heal or i wouldnt have rolled one after having a 90 tank and wizard I know they can it was mostly just curiosity . I am undergeared a bit but I managed to solo heal cella 30 min after hitting lvl 90 and the only tough part was last fight I dont think I am great but have been there plenty times as a tank and seen many other healers struggle with it .</p>

[Gisallo]

<p><cite>Shredderr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok I am not talking about raiding I dont raid I just noticed during a relic fight thats what I am referring too and our wards dont count against this focus damage I know so in this instance is how druids namely wardens out heal me seems they can last up to 400 points straight on the relic np and keep a group up . But in this situation he got the relic first died once i got it then we kept it till game over but the whole time our group never left the green just the one taking the relic damage and I know I kept both my group wards up at all times healed myself whenever I wasnt green or knew i was about to tick warded myself when I was green for taking player damage and I had 600 k healed and the defiler had 2 mil . Now i just hit 90 a couple days ago but I was wondering if some of their heals/wards takw priority over ours . I know mystics can heal or i wouldnt have rolled one after having a 90 tank and wizard I know they can it was mostly just curiosity . I am undergeared a bit but I managed to solo heal cella 30 min after hitting lvl 90 and the only tough part was last fight I dont think I am great but have been there plenty times as a tank and seen many other healers struggle with it .</p></blockquote><p>Well first I was specifically stating outside of raids.  On a relic fight u need to spam the crap out of your heals as well.  Depending on how the relic fight is working u may or may not be out healed.  If the other side sucks and they are not attacking (hence on the carrier taking damage from the relic) then yes a straight healer is going to do better than u.  A defiler will also do better because their base straight heals are bigger.  If however the other side is doing what they should I still don't see ho u would be outhealed.</p><p>All u said was "relic and Defilers vs us."  Since u are talking about one incredibly small part of the game.  It seems a little odd to be complaining about one niche encounter.  </p>

[Shredderr]

<p>you dont hear so well either said its no biggie was curious but can a question be asked here without it being a complaint . Is this the way its supposed to work is all I was asking . You pretty much answered my question without the smart remarks . Ok so a defilers heals are bigger ok cause I have also noticed I have never seen a warden outheal a defiler regardless of the fact he cannot prevent relic damage with a ward and I have lvled from 30 to 90 doing Bg's daily . Just want to ask questions about the class to understand it better and the capabilities which seem to change with each update .</p>

[Gisallo]

<p><cite>Shredderr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>you dont hear so well either said its no biggie was curious but can a question be asked here without it being a complaint . Is this the way its supposed to work is all I was asking . You pretty much answered my question without the smart remarks . Ok so a defilers heals are bigger ok cause I have also noticed I have never seen a warden outheal a defiler regardless of the fact he cannot prevent relic damage with a ward and I have lvled from 30 to 90 doing Bg's daily . Just want to ask questions about the class to understand it better and the capabilities which seem to change with each update .</p></blockquote><p>I do hear well and thus answered your question, your problem seems to be that people aren't saying "omg what we are being out healed!!!!"  That may not have been your intent but that was the tone conveyed.  </p><p>Long story short the defiler isn't being out healed because he has some decently sized heals and when he is spamming wards the damage of those attacking is going to his heal parse as well.  The warden is spamming heals which are likely being blocked by defiler wards stopping the other teams attack so his heals are really only hitting the relic holder.  Under the same set of circumstances the same should hold true for the mystic.  The only time I have ever been outhealed by a druid in that fight is when the other team did not mount an organized attack to take back the relic Thats why I mentioned the effect of the other side attacking so I fail to see how I did not read your post.  I was pretty much on point telling you what the issue was and what could be causing your issue.  If you are being outhealed by anything but a defiler in a Relic fight (yes I have been yanked in on fights when a second healer is a defiler) and the fight is going as intended (organized counter attacks) the other healer either has better gear, a better AA spec or is simply a better player.</p><p>The best way to learn a class is NOT in BG.  Its unclear as to whether you leveled the guy 60 lvls exclusively in BG's or not but if you did take a break.  Things there are way to chaotic with many/most teams not working as teams.  This chaos leads to healers in the end doing little more than just healing themselves because no one is covering their back the way they should.  You don't learn how to keep your group up this way.</p>

[snowli]

<p>relic damage bypasses wards entirely. So with regard to the relic damage..</p><p>mystics have the fewest direct heals i.e. are the most ward focused of any healer - while defilers are primarily warders also, their single and group wards can have quite large direct heals attached to them aswell giving them much more direct healing.</p><p>On general damage, defilers do have a higher class healing potential than mystic class, the group non-physical ward buff is also quite a bit more useful in pvp with a lot of encounter elemental/nox/arcanes incoming to group than the smaller physical only group ward buff of the mystic. Oberon and torpor single target skills make the mystic quite well suited to protecting a single target, defilers have a slightly easier time with damage very spread across groups, like in pvp.</p>

[Shredderr]

<p><cite>Gisallo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shredderr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>you dont hear so well either said its no biggie was curious but can a question be asked here without it being a complaint . Is this the way its supposed to work is all I was asking . You pretty much answered my question without the smart remarks . Ok so a defilers heals are bigger ok cause I have also noticed I have never seen a warden outheal a defiler regardless of the fact he cannot prevent relic damage with a ward and I have lvled from 30 to 90 doing Bg's daily . Just want to ask questions about the class to understand it better and the capabilities which seem to change with each update .</p></blockquote><p>I do hear well and thus answered your question, your problem seems to be that people aren't saying "omg what we are being out healed!!!!"  That may not have been your intent but that was the tone conveyed.  </p><p>Long story short the defiler isn't being out healed because he has some decently sized heals and when he is spamming wards the damage of those attacking is going to his heal parse as well.  The warden is spamming heals which are likely being blocked by defiler wards stopping the other teams attack so his heals are really only hitting the relic holder.  Under the same set of circumstances the same should hold true for the mystic.  The only time I have ever been outhealed by a druid in that fight is when the other team did not mount an organized attack to take back the relic Thats why I mentioned the effect of the other side attacking so I fail to see how I did not read your post.  I was pretty much on point telling you what the issue was and what could be causing your issue.  If you are being outhealed by anything but a defiler in a Relic fight (yes I have been yanked in on fights when a second healer is a defiler) and the fight is going as intended (organized counter attacks) the other healer either has better gear, a better AA spec or is simply a better player.</p><p>The best way to learn a class is NOT in BG.  Its unclear as to whether you leveled the guy 60 lvls exclusively in BG's or not but if you did take a break.  Things there are way to chaotic with many/most teams not working as teams.  This chaos leads to healers in the end doing little more than just healing themselves because no one is covering their back the way they should.  You don't learn how to keep your group up this way.</p></blockquote><p>ok thx  can learn from this one its hard to get a group nowadays on the way up to 90 so i used Bg's but am instancing more now .</p>

[Shredderr]

<p><cite>snowline wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>relic damage bypasses wards entirely. So with regard to the relic damage..</p><p>mystics have the fewest direct heals i.e. are the most ward focused of any healer - while defilers are primarily warders also, their single and group wards can have quite large direct heals attached to them aswell giving them much more direct healing.</p><p>On general damage, defilers do have a higher class healing potential than mystic class, the group non-physical ward buff is also quite a bit more useful in pvp with a lot of encounter elemental/nox/arcanes incoming to group than the smaller physical only group ward buff of the mystic. Oberon and torpor single target skills make the mystic quite well suited to protecting a single target, defilers have a slightly easier time with damage very spread across groups, like in pvp.</p></blockquote><p>ahh ok thats is the answer to my question thx so we may be better suited to single target heals than a defiler and they are just better suited towards pvp . Lets me know a lot cause I only play on a pvp server ... danke <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Gisallo]

<p>Don't forget though we can be better dps wise up close and personal with a melee spec.  If you like aggressiveness and a more balanced play style the Mystic is not too bad.</p>

[snowli]

<p>Actually I'd say defilers can do the same dps as us (due to how priest gear was itemised this expac), but have the advantage of range. The only defilers who still think they can't do any dps are the ones who haven't tried to <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Banditman]

<p>I don't think I agree with that.</p><p>I think that ability wise, Defilers and Mystics are fairly equivalent when it comes to damage dealing.  Mystics tend to use the CA versions of their spells, while Defilers just use the strait up spells.</p><p>The thing is, to be truly even, a Defiler must still auto attack the mob.  This, I think, is why many Defilers don't feel like they can DPS.  They simply want to stand back and cast at the mob, neglecting the fact that simply swinging a weapon is a fairly sizeable portion of a Mystics DPS.</p><p>Thus, Defilers don't really have a "range" advantage.  If they want to do equivalent DPS, they need to stand up there with us and swing a weapon.  I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just something to consider.</p>

[Gisallo]

<p>That's why I said "up close and personal" /wink.   That wasn't a reference to melee spec being "better", simply that in my experience most "caster" types tend to not get up and personal and so lose out on autoattack and that is where the difference in dps between the two shaman's comes from.</p><p>The fact that defilers (to my mind) can no longer explain their superior healing ability away as a trade off for our better dps anymore is actually one of the things annoying me about our class anymore.  Well if their dps with all the casting and reuse speed now matches ours shouldn't we get SOMETHING?</p>

[Gahnand]

if your defiler is doing as much dps as you, it's because you're doing it wrong.

[Gisallo]

<p>we don't have A defiler we run 2 mystics 2 defilers.  yes the defiler in the MT group NEVER even equals me BUT the one in the mage group does manage to do this on occasion.   From everything I have read it seems that (at this point) a caster spec'd shaman can do just as much dps (if not more) as a melee spec'd shaman so long as they are having to heal a lot due to the fact that with all the casting speed and reuse speed floating around, plenty of threads discussing that lately tbh.  Its when we really have to heal that the melee spec shines through and being able to do decent damage while healing is one of the things I still love about this class.  This means that through out a raid zone things will balance out on average.</p><p>That being said, with the healing disparity (especially as a result of the myth nerf imho, before that I didn't see it as that big a deal), then the mystic should get something in return.</p><p>I do NOT think it is something inherent in the classes.  Butt naked with only a weapon in hand a melee spec'd mystic will do more damage than a butt naked spell casting defiler.  BUT that dynamic has been altered significantly by toons being able to have 100%+ spell cast self buffed and pretty high reuse in raid, heck even in groups.  Now since it is gear realted I don't how they could fix it tbh, but the gear has created an issue imho.</p>