Fighter heal crit nerf...whats the long term plan here [Archive]

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Maveric_LOL

08-16-2010, 02:20 PM

Im curious...what is really the long term plan here? I mean really is there one? Has this blanket nerf to fighter heals been thought out? What are we actually trying to achieve here?The devs said its about stopping people from soloing content they shouldent be soloing or completing group content without a healer. Ok fine, i can buy that theory lets see if the upcomming change solves that issue.Lets examine the nerf shall we;Lets say as of right now fighter heals no longer crit. what will we have acomplished? Well..In actuality:-Since its really ward procs and lifetaps on raid gear thats enabling fighters to solo content thats not meant to be soloed....No change here stuff will still get soloed that shouldent be.-What about mages will they still be able to solo content not mean to be soloed? Absoloutely-Will many scouts still be able to solo these same instances? yep you bet.-Healers....yep them too.Interesting....i know maybe this 'fix' will have more effect on the group play aspect!Hmmm...lets see though...We already have a situation where-Geared up tanks only need 1 healer even for the hardest SF instances...even if they never press a single heal button..or dont even have any heals for that matter...will that change....nope cause there hasnt been any nerf to ward procs-Instances are being tanked by scouts and surprise surprise still only 1 healer needed!-Intance groups are being tanked by healers (no joke here) and yet again only 1 healer needed!-Instance groups are being tanked by sorcs in dispersion gear..So wait, this tank specific nerf has no real noticeable effect at all?Its almost as if...its the raid gear intended for raid level encounters that is making players overpowered in heroic level situations.... Hmmm....interesting.Raid gear trivialises heroic content.This has always been the case, all that is happening now is that with all the crit bonus and floating around the effects are exponentially larger now.To nerf fighter healing because a few people with the top end of raid gear are healing too much is rediculous. They heal that much because not only are they are wearing raid gear intended for the raid enviroment but they are wearing TOP end raid gear.If you wish to 'balance' fighter healing then you need to balance the capabilities of raid geared fighters against the level of healing that is appropiate for the raid enviroment, and balance heroic instance geared fighters healing output with what would be acceptable in heroic level play. Balance has to be done from the top down, not the bottom up.This 'fix' essentially penalises people at the top end of the spectrum for being too sucessful because they have put in the hours of raiding to aquire the gear that makes them more powerful.But really who is to blame here? The player who worked within the confines of the itemization that set out in SF? Or the devs who itemized the expansion in the first place?The crit consolidation excuse is just scapegoat. Most high end fighters were already over 100% crit at the end of tso much less in SF, and thats nothing to do with the fact that it seems every single SF item has 6 million crit chance on it. So to say you never expected heals or any other ability type to be subjected to a 100% crit rate is nothing but a second rate excuse.As for the 'oh but fighter heals were never really intended to critical anyway, that is broken' excuse. While that may have been true for some heals (% based heals) and maybe for some classes, but Paladins for example have aa that specifically deal with critical healing, we always have...hell there was even one put in this expansion that added heal crit bonus!Speaking as a paladin, to all of a sudden be told that 'as of now, half the blue stats on your hard earned gear will no longer affect a third of your abilities' is plain insulting. We were told that there would be no need for crusader specific gear because with stat consolidation 1 set of gear would effect everyone equally. Now thats prooving to not be true. Now we are being told 'well you can increase your healing ability via potency' and ability mod. That may be true but where is the crusader gear with increased potency or even 'healy potency' the exsisting gear hasnt changed. All you have done is that for certain classes you have decreased the value of gear that we worked hard for.Ok so. All that aside, if fighters are still healing too much and a nerf is needed...how was that nerf quantified?Did someone actually examine paladins for example in the raid enviroment, look at their healing output in relation to the rest of the raid and make an informed decision along the lines of "ok well we need to cut healing by x% based on these numbers...and sks really need a cut by y% to be brought in line...but monks only really need a reduction of z%..ect etc"...how do we do it?To just throw out a blanket nerf across an entire archtype like the heal crit nerf is irresponsible and just lazy. Why? Because just like crit consolidation made some classes more powerful across the board, taking away heal crit across the boad is going to hurt some classes way more than others.To understand just what is at stake here. In the raid enviroment with full T2 offensive gear and jewlery and with raid buffs i can crit my single target ward on my paladin for anywhere from 8 - 14k depending on group/raid buffs (escpecially if i have heritics up). This change would cap that ward out at about 3.5 - 4.2k depending on group buffs. Now does it require a nerf as it is now? Perhaps, but a 70% reduction? Where is the justification for that. As it is now the ward is definatly worth casting and is an important part of my cast order. After the nerf..will i still cast it? sure, will it still be as an important damage reduction tool...not even close.What should have been done is different adjustments should have been applied ideally to each class individually. Yes, i know that takes a little more effort, but then thats what the devs are employed for.Instead what is probably going to happen is that a blanket nerf is going to be implimented. Then, in a month or 2 when there is data available to be reviewed that shows that one class or another needs to be adjusted one way or another, a fix or perhaps 2 will be required, more aa changes will have to be made and eventually (hopefully) it will actually get balanced out. The problem is that in the mean time your frustrating players who have to deal with the situation every day in game mean time.So please, can we just skip to the end of the cycle here and avoid the annoying bit in the middle. If you really want to nerf fighter healing then fine but do so on an individual class basis. Examine actual data from the raid, heroic group, and solo situations compare the numbers being put up to what would be appropiate in each of those cases and make an informed decision. There are many ways to reduce healing output that could be utilized.You could:-Cap heal crit levels at different % for different classes-Cap heal crit bonus at different levels for different classes-Cap potency at different levels for different classes-Adjust the base value of the various heals-Change some heals to a % basis. That way they wouldent crit and would scale with content and buffs.-Apply a modifyer that would effect how cb and potency effect each classes heals -Apply a diminshing returns curve-Apply %limitations (example if a heal crits reguardless of the critted value it cant heal for more than x% of the players hp)Those are just a few ideas of the top of my head, each idea might not be appropiate for each class but then thats the point...individual adjustment for each class. If you are short on ideas you have dedicated players of every class on the forums some of which are probably more familiar with their classes mechanics than any dev and im sure they would be happy to offer up ideas from which you can choose.Dont just throw out a blanket nerf when really you have no idea how what its effects are actually going to be in the long term. Thats exactly what you did with stat consolidation you rushed blindly into it without understanding the big picture...and thats how we got into this mess in the first place.So again, i ask you...before you change anything, whats the long term plan here?

theriatis

08-16-2010, 04:50 PM

Hi,as i can remember, you gave the Paladins the Healing Ability to make up for all the things they are inferior to other Tanks - now you're nerfing them into Oblivion.We are losing all our Paladins (Accounts cancelled), thanks to that nerf... all other Tanks didn't seem to be concerned.Regards, Mandragore. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" />

Morrias

08-16-2010, 06:56 PM

Their long term plan is to make Guardians and Shadowknights REALLY overpowered, and Paladins / Berserkers utterly worthless, I thought that was obvious?

Yimway

08-16-2010, 07:25 PM

<cite>Ukae@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Their long term plan is to make Guardians and Shadowknights REALLY overpowered, and Paladins / Berserkers utterly worthless, I thought that was obvious?</blockquote>LOL, zerkers and paladins are still better tanks than the counterparts post nerf. Claims like this are amusing.Seriously, there are alread 3 threads on this, we need another?

Laenai

08-16-2010, 07:29 PM

As a healer, my guess is I'll still NOT have to heal in a heroic instance. Defiler DPS > All

Morrias

08-16-2010, 07:37 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ukae@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Their long term plan is to make Guardians and Shadowknights REALLY overpowered, and Paladins / Berserkers utterly worthless, I thought that was obvious?</blockquote>LOL, zerkers and paladins are still better tanks than the counterparts post nerf. Claims like this are amusing.Seriously, there are alread 3 threads on this, we need another?</blockquote>I was joking sorry, for the most part I feel this is a very good change, and it will do good towards balancing out the tanks, I have no idea why everyone is complaining about it.. >.<

Jeal

08-16-2010, 08:37 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ukae@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Their long term plan is to make Guardians and Shadowknights REALLY overpowered, and Paladins / Berserkers utterly worthless, I thought that was obvious?</blockquote>LOL, zerkers and paladins are still better tanks than the counterparts post nerf. Claims like this are amusing.Seriously, there are alread 3 threads on this, we need another?</blockquote>quit making judgements on a game you only play 1/3 of the content in, and on classes you know only what your alt twink tells you about.

Xalmat

08-16-2010, 08:41 PM

This nerf won't even affect Shadowknights, which is ironic.

Maveric_LOL

08-16-2010, 08:55 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ukae@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Their long term plan is to make Guardians and Shadowknights REALLY overpowered, and Paladins / Berserkers utterly worthless, I thought that was obvious?</blockquote>LOL, zerkers and paladins are still better tanks than the counterparts post nerf. Claims like this are amusing.Seriously, there are alread 3 threads on this, we need another?</blockquote>and if this change had affected guards even in the slightest how many threads would there have been then?

TheSpin

08-16-2010, 08:55 PM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>This nerf won't even affect Shadowknights, which is ironic.</blockquote>It has been posted multiple times that the heal portion of a lifetap will no longer crit after this change goes live.

Callim

08-16-2010, 09:42 PM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>This nerf won't even affect Shadowknights, which is ironic.</blockquote>Seriously? Still? Do people not read at all? This nerf hits SK's just as hard as Pallies with respect to heals. We don't get castable heals no, but our HEALING components are being reduced by a good 40-75+ percent depending on how good your gear is.Of course the upside is that most of the healing in this expansion ISN'T self heals for any tank class, its mostly Stonewill, Lifetap armor pieces, Blood Symphony, etc. Gear proc heals are the real issue, they just don't seem capable of grasping this.Nobody wins in this nerf, and please stop this whole "SK's are uneffected" talk.As an aside, the Devs telling crusaders to get potency to balance it back up is laughable. If you need the heals to serve their purpose, then you are tanking stuff that hurts you. If it can hurt you, then you are wearing your defensive gear. Defensive tank gear = NO CRIT BONUS AND POTENCY as a general rule.Offensive gear, I have around 40-50 crit bonus, 40 potency. Defensive, 12 crit bonus (5 from spell siphon AA), and around 14 innate potency (8 from wisdom AA enhancer). Those who will need the heals the most, were those who were least likely to have the huge bonuses the Dev's want to nerf anyway ---> ie this change is dumb.

CYR3Z

08-16-2010, 10:25 PM

Well I dont get it to be honest. Games been around 7yrs now and this is like getting old, my attitude is if its broken fix it if its fixed leave it alone ffs. This has got to be the 50th time that classes have been NERFED and then brought back up again then nerfed. STOP listening to the people who whine and just leave the game alone and geton making ur expansions.

Obadiah

08-17-2010, 01:11 AM

<cite>Tubby@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>This nerf won't even affect Shadowknights, which is ironic.</blockquote>Seriously? Still? Do people not read at all? This nerf hits SK's just as hard as Pallies with respect to heals. We don't get castable heals no, but our HEALING components are being reduced by a good 40-75+ percent depending on how good your gear is.Of course the upside is that most of the healing in this expansion ISN'T self heals for any tank class, its mostly Stonewill, Lifetap armor pieces, Blood Symphony, etc. Gear proc heals are the real issue, they just don't seem capable of grasping this.Nobody wins in this nerf, and please stop this whole "SK's are uneffected" talk.As an aside, the Devs telling crusaders to get potency to balance it back up is laughable. If you need the heals to serve their purpose, then you are tanking stuff that hurts you. If it can hurt you, then you are wearing your defensive gear. Defensive tank gear = NO CRIT BONUS AND POTENCY as a general rule.Offensive gear, I have around 40-50 crit bonus, 40 potency. Defensive, 12 crit bonus (5 from spell siphon AA), and around 14 innate potency (8 from wisdom AA enhancer). Those who will need the heals the most, were those who were least likely to have the huge bonuses the Dev's want to nerf anyway ---> ie this change is dumb.</blockquote>That's not true. People who think the servers are too crowded win, and Potency is a great answer for the mathematically challenged.

Yimway

08-17-2010, 11:14 AM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>quit making judgements on a game you only play 1/3 of the content in, and on classes you know only what your alt twink tells you about.</blockquote>lawl

Boli32

08-17-2010, 11:54 AM

Snappy well informed argument there Atan <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Landiin

08-17-2010, 12:27 PM

I really don't see it effecting things that much as it has been proven that most heals comes from the gear so WTFE.

Yimway

08-17-2010, 12:38 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Snappy well informed argument there Atan <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Your welcome to demonstrate how my point was wrong. That somehow SK and guards suddenly have more appeal than paladin/zerkers as the person I replied to claimed. Or that how in anyway this change affects the pecking order on raid tanks.I believe it does not, but its one of several mechanics changes that need to be effected for the overall health of the game. As I've stated in other places, proc chances on these heal/ward items will be nerfed to direct target only next.And even after proc changes, it doesn't change 'pecking order' in any way, I favor it again for the sole reason that fighters shouldn't be that self sufficient, just as wizzards shouldn't have had the compounding dispersion procs capable of tanking instances.Its really not rocket surgery, but I understand people get upset when they're nerfed after being spoiled. Really I get it, I've been there.

Seolta

08-17-2010, 12:46 PM

Two theories spring to mind:1. SOE is simply following it's standard M.O. of making rash knee jerk nerfs to placate the scrub morons who cry about things they don't understand (like how weak the SF heroic content is in relation to ANY well geared class).OR(for the conspiracy theorists)2. SOE is trying to systematically nerf into oblivion all but the 8 EQ2X default classes in order to kill off the Live Servers(which are a PITA to them) so they can transition the game to EQ2X and rake in the microtransaction profits while maintaining a skeleton crew, and solving any future balance issues with SC items.Either way, end result is Live Server cancellations due to SOE's actions. Go figure.

Seolta

08-17-2010, 12:57 PM

Yimway

08-17-2010, 01:14 PM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>People quit when their class becomes less fun and their play style options are arbitrarily restricted. </blockquote>People also quit from a lack of challenge. People aren't retained in games that are too trivial. People are more likely to stay in a game that encourages teamwork were they will build social bonds that reinforce retention.But yeah, this game is hemoraging players at this point, its a shame these issues were not addressed in beta before they had 6 months to get seeded as *must* haves.*edit* - And I don't think there is much fear of people canceling subs until something else launches in the same general genre. I suspect we'll have a short term exodus when FF14 releases in a few weeks, but players who haven't engaged with that franchise previously will continue not to engage with them longterm on this offering for the same reasons.

RafaelSmith

08-17-2010, 01:30 PM

"..long term plan" ? Ha, no such thing exists or ever has in EQ2.The current devs are clueless and I honestly believe that somewhere in the cess pool that is the SOE management decision tree that they actually want to kill the game....so intead they can put all their focus on nickle and diming players on the extended servers.Were about get get a game "update" that offers obsolutely NO new content and instead has changes that will only serve to ruin what little fun factor remains in the game.Who gives a rats arss if well played players that have spent the time to optimize their gear can solo Library?...christ.This change to fighter heals does'nt fix a [Removed for Content] thing because there really isnt a problem with it in the first place.The actual problem with the game and the fighter inbalance is that the content is TOO EASY. Make content harder, make mobs hit like trucks...i.e buff content instead of nerfing players.

Evette23

08-17-2010, 01:41 PM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Despite whatever game balancing philosophy you may adhere to, THIS GAME IS ON LIFE SUPPORT; making the game LESS fun for anyone is not a good idea. People don't need much of a push to cancel their subs these days, and nerfs like this simply provide them with that final push.</blockquote>Yea, if the millions of shadowknights quit, this game would be empty.

Landiin

08-17-2010, 02:50 PM

<cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Despite whatever game balancing philosophy you may adhere to, THIS GAME IS ON LIFE SUPPORT; making the game LESS fun for anyone is not a good idea. People don't need much of a push to cancel their subs these days, and nerfs like this simply provide them with that final push.</blockquote>Yea, if the millions of shadowknights quit, this game would be empty.</blockquote>lol, and better off!

Boli32

08-17-2010, 03:30 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Snappy well informed argument there Atan <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Your welcome to demonstrate how my point was wrong. That somehow SK and guards suddenly have more appeal than paladin/zerkers as the person I replied to claimed. Or that how in anyway this change affects the pecking order on raid tanks.I believe it does not, but its one of several mechanics changes that need to be effected for the overall health of the game. As I've stated in other places, proc chances on these heal/ward items will be nerfed to direct target only next.And even after proc changes, it doesn't change 'pecking order' in any way, I favor it again for the sole reason that fighters shouldn't be that self sufficient, just as wizzards shouldn't have had the compounding dispersion procs capable of tanking instances.Its really not rocket surgery, but I understand people get upset when they're nerfed after being spoiled. Really I get it, I've been there.</blockquote>I have already demonstrated my arguements elsewhere as you well know it.. Pallys are taking a huge survial NERF; given all our abilities are linked to heals. So far your efforts to disprove me have resulted in "wah wah wah" pallys should never heal for that much anyways; given you're working out how much we can potentially heal for if chain casting. Hate to break it to you but chain casting directs rsults in loosing agro; little to no DPS, and no power in under 60 seconds; what we used heals for was healing spike damage and to protect our group.The massive heal parses people saw was from zerker and SK reactive and lifetap based healing NOT from paladin healing... yes we heal but we use our directs rarely and aside from warding at the start never ward unless its a really hard mob due to cast speed/interupts. SKs and Zerkers did need to be tweaked somewhat with their reactive/lifetap healing ability and I will leave it up to them if they think it is "ok" (and tbh most either seem for it or not too bothered about the change) and the healing power is reduced .Except Pallys get absolutly shafted by this change and you know it and all you can add to the discussion is "lawl". Disprove me... add your own facts ; play and raid with your pally twinked alt in a raid situation with heal crits on and with them off and you'll know EXACTLY what the issue is. After the 10th time you are rezzed in a hard mode named fight and asked to sit out in facour of any other tank you will have plenty of time to think about it.and fyi... Pallys *should* be the joint choice for MT, that you have admitted as much before... which this change pallys are left screwed in survibility and guards agro tweaks mean we are more equal in agro. SO what's left Utility (heals all dead) and DPS (bring an SK or a zerker they do it better).Yes... "lawl".As for the OP, we *do* need a long term plan... change how pallys heal is needs be but you cannot change a single tank and ignore the others.. it happened again in TSO with SKs and it is happening now with guards. All tanks need to be looked at with their role in mind and full and frank feedback from the devs and the playerbase who have spent a *lot* more time on classes than the devleopmopent team. tbh.. if needs be I can give a list of names of high level pallys who know more about this class than I care to think. so you don't have to listen to my ramblings anymore.

Yimway

08-17-2010, 04:00 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>and fyi... Pallys *should* be the joint choice for MT, that you have admitted as much before... which this change pallys are left screwed in survibility and guards agro tweaks mean we are more equal in agro. SO what's left Utility (heals all dead) and DPS (bring an SK or a zerker they do it better).</blockquote>Yes, I suggest Paladin and Guard should be the two classes fighting for MT and Zerker/SK fighting for OT.And post change, Paladin is still the more survivable choice with more agro and dps potential. You want to believe it is not for some reason, but I think that may be cause its been too long since anyone seriously looked at the classes side-by-side. Guards have an advantage with their ability to react to predicted spike damage with stoneskin counters. So on something like Gynok, it was a very useful tool. However if you look at the aggregrate damage healed by just your myth and no other healing, on average raid encounters it totals for more damage negated than guard stoneskin procs. Stoneskins only win when your avoiding what would otherwise kill either class. It is honestly a rare condition that you know exactly when to use them, most of the time it is an exersize in esp. The mudflation of mitigation on gear has virtually negated the advantages that guard short terms were, leaving in my opinion only stoneskins being the relevant comparison. Your 'broken' heals still remain more effective than short term mitigation buffs in today's game.Things may level out depending on what happens on Guard Sphere and if reflect/amends/KS is ever touched on the paladin side. But there is by no means a condition where guards are defacto better than paladins with just this nerf and some agro changes, if anything, Paladins continue to be the defacto best choice.My contention is post nerf, you're still taking less damage, and still have more agro potential than any other plate tank. The only ground I could see the class behind peers on is maybe snaps, which I think is more than justified with the other tools available.*edit* - As far as a long term plan, I've been asking for that the loudest and for the longest as well.

Kahling

08-17-2010, 04:02 PM

The op makes a very valid point, there may be another 3 threads regarding this but that just goes to show how people feel about this change, on the whole they don't like it.I see this thread has already been "Atan'd" - remember this saying when its your class on the chopping block and he's all over it please. So this is the 4th thread and no good dev explanation regarding the change even with people like Boli and Jeal posting hard facts in some of the other threads. I have seen one post from a dev which wasn't much of an explanation and I have seen the dev response regarding the question from fan fair where basically the Paladin (paying customer) was basically jeered at and not given any explination.With 30K plus hit points in a raid how is the Paladin ward of 4.4K after nerf going to be viable? How is the single target heal of 4.4K after nerf going to make a difference appart from the huge ammount of power it consumes compared with little gain, and if your tanking that is if you can get the heal or ward off and not be interupted.This blanket nerf does not take anything in to account for the 6 tanks individually, its ill thought out to put a blanket nerf in. If this was a constructive nerf with each of the 6 tanks being looked at individually with an explination then that might be different, as it stands it effects the 6 classes differently.Also any argument about any class being able to solo a zone is pointless, if you have raid gear, if you raid, one of the prices you pay is that it trivilises heroic content to varying degree's. Most people play an MMO to improve their character, one of the large drives is to improve it, nerfs are not good for any game especially one that seems to be loosing customers. If other classes need boosts then boost them by all means. The fact that everything has not been killed yet in game means there is still challenge to be had.Anyhows as I said the OP has a valid point. Would be nice to see a response other than the usual people comming in and enjoying themselves at other peoples misery.Kahling.

Boli32

08-17-2010, 04:17 PM

So Paladins anti spike abilities - spike into red and hit the old "oh fiddlesticks button":Divine Aura (AA choice) hit over 50% of current health = deathCrusader's Faith (AA choice), procs heals dependant on % of groups DPS... nerfed massively and was of only limited use before esp in the MT groupStonewall (AA choice) 8s immunity to physcial damage (frontal only can be strikethrough)Leigionaries Conviction (AA choice) reduce Spell damage by 405 rteflect 200% of it back (Spell based only not physcial)Direct HealsLay on Hands / Aid / Prayer <--- all nerfed, LoH decent heal but only 30% heal after nerf. a 4.5k heal is nothing when you have health of 30-40kRemoving direct heals since those are no longer a selling point.Removing either LC or DA since due to AA you can only realisitally pick one of them and LC is betterCrusaders faith I have found use for it in THREE fights, two of which are herioc.SO Paladins anti spike abilities == Stonewall.So Guards will have a *lot* more defence against spike damage... and paladins *in general* take less damage due to 10% DR vs 5% DR proc.the 10% heal from myth is not relavent since under wards this is discounted most of the time. so when it *is* counted the spikes are *slightly* less.When you fight the big stuff this is what is likely to kill you:mob AoE (physcial or magic doesnt matter) - group ward down, single target ward down on tankMob attack for massive damagemob double attack for massive damageTank dies.Almost *every* single one of my deaths have been due to this... right now I try.. but not always succeed and get a heal or stonewall off after the AoE so I can *just* hang on untill the healers recover and so does my group.The 10% heal doesn't matter it is about getting an emergancy up after the AoE hit and before the mob double attacks. this is what makes or breaks a tank. Paladins coudl quickly heal - guardians use a stoneskin like ability. of which you have a lot more choice.Welcome to the reason we are so [Removed for Content] off.

Yimway

08-17-2010, 05:15 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>SO Paladins anti spike abilities == Stonewall.So Guards will have a *lot* more defence against spike damage... and paladins *in general* take less damage due to 10% DR vs 5% DR proc.the 10% heal from myth is not relavent since under wards this is discounted most of the time. so when it *is* counted the spikes are *slightly* less.When you fight the big stuff this is what is likely to kill you:mob AoE (physcial or magic doesnt matter) - group ward down, single target ward down on tankMob attack for massive damagemob double attack for massive damageTank dies.</blockquote>Boli, this is the first time in any of these threads I've seen somone actualy do a comparison related to other classes, something I tried to urge several of you to make.I personally think you are undervalueing the myth DR and over estimating the number of controlable stoneskins at the guards disposal. But each of us being on opposite sides of that fence could be affected by the grass is greener syndrome. I can't say with certainty where this will actually fall out, but I think you could successfully make an arguement that Legionarre's Conviction (or better yet a paladin endline) should be adjusted for a much larger base heal only modifier. I by no means think the heals should be as high as they are on live, but I do question if they are hit too low for specificaly this case. I was suggesting a 4% base heal modifier per point instead of 2% raw potency, perhaps an arguement could be made higher or lower.

Obadiah

08-17-2010, 10:26 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>As I've stated in other places, proc chances on these heal/ward items will be nerfed to direct target only next.And even after proc changes, it doesn't change 'pecking order' in any way, I favor it again for the sole reason that fighters shouldn't be that self sufficient, just as wizzards shouldn't have had the compounding dispersion procs capable of tanking instances.Its really not rocket surgery, but I understand people get upset when they're nerfed after being spoiled. Really I get it, I've been there.</blockquote>So what is really the point of playing the game? I mean, that's the real point. That is is why my subscription ends in 3 days.People play MMOs - among other reasons - to advance their character. You get better spells, you get better gear, you grow, you become more powerful, etc. I don't even feel like bidding on heal proc gear because I'm sure it's going to be nerfed. Just like my Defiler had his DPS reduced by 50% last GU. Just like my Berserker and my friends' Paladins are all nerfed tomorrow. Just like proc gear several players had bid on was nerfed a year ago. Just like the Guardian Mythical was nerfed.What is the point of playing a game where they give you really cool stuff and then take it the hell away 6 months later? Anything I like anymore, I just wait for the other shoe to drop. What is the long term plan? The long term plan is to continue to lead you farther and farther with carrots and then turn them into dung once you get them in your mouth.No thanks.

Boli32

08-18-2010, 04:59 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>SO Paladins anti spike abilities == Stonewall.So Guards will have a *lot* more defence against spike damage... and paladins *in general* take less damage due to 10% DR vs 5% DR proc.the 10% heal from myth is not relavent since under wards this is discounted most of the time. so when it *is* counted the spikes are *slightly* less.When you fight the big stuff this is what is likely to kill you:mob AoE (physcial or magic doesnt matter) - group ward down, single target ward down on tankMob attack for massive damagemob double attack for massive damageTank dies.</blockquote>Boli, this is the first time in any of these threads I've seen somone actualy do a comparison related to other classes, something I tried to urge several of you to make.I personally think you are undervalueing the myth DR and over estimating the number of controlable stoneskins at the guards disposal. But each of us being on opposite sides of that fence could be affected by the grass is greener syndrome. I can't say with certainty where this will actually fall out, but I think you could successfully make an arguement that Legionarre's Conviction (or better yet a paladin endline) should be adjusted for a much larger base heal only modifier. I by no means think the heals should be as high as they are on live, but I do question if they are hit too low for specificaly this case. I was suggesting a 4% base heal modifier per point instead of 2% raw potency, perhaps an arguement could be made higher or lower.</blockquote>Just goes to show you never read the thread in the paladin forum you were trolling.Guardian "oh buttons" abilities: - Dragoons reflexes (AA choice) - included for the same reason Divine Aura is included, yes I know the disadvantages for DR are greater than DA.. but you have to give up less AA to get it. - Block (AA Choice) - Last man Standing (AA choice) - not negate entirely but make them much less potent - Defensive Minded (improves chance to dodge subsequent attacks; not perfect so will only use if others are down) - Tower of Stone - need I say more? - Guardian Sphere - especially if used in conjuction with AoE avoid - not perfect buyt if cast out of range is ideal for 5 stoneskin triggersCleaning up both lists we have : Paladin (Stonewall *OR* LC, 1) vs Guardian (Block, LMS, ToS, 3) . Before the heal nerf we had the POTENTIAL to reduce the incoming damage if SW was not up by casting a heal but that only healed damage taken and did not prevent the damage. so the survibility for damage spikes was *similar*... but in different ways - as it shold be. Now after the change the heals are not simply big enough to stop the damage spikes.If you bothered to read all the previous posts instead of harping on witht he broken record "I have a twink pally who has never seriously raided and actually listened and read to what we were talking about you woudl have seen we *did* give facts figures and reasons why this was such a massive nerf.And you would have also understood why this data is not easily parseable... could you as a guardian realistically parse how effective your anti spike abilities are? you are either dead or you are not; they coudl have gone off they coudl have failed. they coudl have messed up or never triggered.Anyways apppolgies for derailing. some things had to be said. - and no doubt Atan will reply to this with a "snappy" comeback in an effort to make it look as if he won the argument but I assure you he will have not even if I do not reply.

RAYVEN2

08-18-2010, 07:26 AM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ukae@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Their long term plan is to make Guardians and Shadowknights REALLY overpowered, and Paladins / Berserkers utterly worthless, I thought that was obvious?</blockquote>LOL, zerkers and paladins are still better tanks than the counterparts post nerf. Claims like this are amusing.Seriously, there are alread 3 threads on this, we need another?</blockquote>quit making judgements on a game you only play 1/3 of the content in, and on classes you know only what your alt twink tells you about.</blockquote>QFE!!!!!!

isest

08-18-2010, 08:49 AM

I think most folks are missing the real point. What is the one class that they have as a tank in ex2 extended --- guardian. Do you have to ask why a gaurdian its called playing favorites.I am worried myself the long term plan is for class consolidation like we got in swg. Merging the classes down to something that a small dev staff can handle. That is what I am worried about, and just not fighters, but all classes.

Landiin

08-18-2010, 11:11 AM

Hate that this went live, but maybe all the QQing will stop now and you'll see nothing has change but maybe you will need a bit more healing.

Evette23

08-18-2010, 11:23 AM

<cite>isest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think most folks are missing the real point. What is the one class that they have as a tank in ex2 extended</blockquote>One tank class? [Removed for Content] are you smoking?They make the suck class free and you have to pay if you want to play an OP crusader.

Landiin

08-18-2010, 11:31 AM

<cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>isest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think most folks are missing the real point. What is the one class that they have as a tank in ex2 extended</blockquote>One tank class? [Removed for Content] are you smoking?They make the suck class free and you have to pay if you want to play an OP crusader.</blockquote>I know right! But what do you expect from classes with a big red easy button... OMG THE SKY IS FALLING...