Advice for a Brawler

[Uandiiniu5]

<p>hey guys,</p><p>First I want to say that I love the Fighter classes, i seem to be unable to get enough of tanking or something on the line of it.</p><p>However, ive been on sense SF launch (~5 year player here) and im having a hard time. I've been watching the fourm posts on fighters in general,all of the balance stuff...</p><p>I -really- want to play my bruiser,but im in a gap. I'm on AB,with the issue being that I have to rely on PUG groups to level up (still 87) and it seems im unable to do anything at all. Is it due to the generalization that Plateis better then leather dispite the tweaks to our D stance?</p><p>I'm also having a tough time getting my mythical broken. I cant get into groups to kill the bosses I need. And yes,I've tried to make my groups before,all end up leaving before I can get more.</p>

[Selioth]

<p>Very very common problem for all brawlers without a lot of good firends.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Well, your issue is compounded on two fronts.  The first is that on AB, there are enough people around who are 90 looking for groups that people who aren't level 90 yet tend to get snubbed for groups.  Add in an undesireable class and the problem gets bigger.  What I would suggest is that you get to 90 and form your own group to do the three zones you need.</p>

[Gilasil]

<p>Finding a good supportive guild who does things together and which is big enough to be able to form groups on a regular basis would be priceless for these kinds of problems.</p><p>I'll leave how to go about finding such a guild as an exercise for the reader (i.e. I have no freaking clue how to find such a guild reliably).</p>

[Shredderr]

<p>going to have to quest and do battlegrounds to lvl by the time you get 90 you can get at least a few set pieces the BP woth +4% mit on it is gonna be a big must have for our class . getting groups idk about that I quit trying and playing my monk because of that and my guild is small so i rolled a real tank and will be lvling the plate now .</p>

[Aull]

<p>If you really want to play your bruiser then go for it. At endgame with all the mit increasers a brawler in defensive stance can do very good. As mentioned tons of times before a brawler will give up mass loads for dps just to get the defensives they need to take a hit.</p><p>If you really want to tank alot I would advise rolling a crusader or berserker. You will get far more groups to tank much much quicker than you will with a brawler.</p><p>You might hang around till after gu 57 hits and see what becomes of paladins and sk's. I do feel paladins will be taking the "no fighter can crit heal no more" far more difficultly than the other fighters. Who knows.</p><p>It will be much easier if you have friends that will let you run on your bruiser as they will be more forgiving than the average pug. Many of my friends here lately have ditched the game for other gaming interests so I will not be running on my bruiser much from here on out.</p><p>By the way it doesn't look like brawlers will be getting any attention from a fan fair post I read earlier today here on the forums.</p><p>Not liking what I am seeing for this game but best of luck to ya!</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you really want to play your bruiser then go for it. At endgame with all the mit increasers a brawler in defensive stance can do very good. As mentioned tons of times before a brawler will give up mass loads for dps just to get the defensives they need to take a hit.</p><p>If you really want to tank alot I would advise rolling a crusader or berserker. You will get far more groups to tank much much quicker than you will with a brawler.</p><p>You might hang around till after gu 57 hits and see what becomes of paladins and sk's. I do feel paladins will be taking the "no fighter can crit heal no more" far more difficultly than the other fighters. Who knows.</p><p>It will be much easier if you have friends that will let you run on your bruiser as they will be more forgiving than the average pug. Many of my friends here lately have ditched the game for other gaming interests so I will not be running on my bruiser much from here on out.</p><p>By the way it doesn't look like brawlers will be getting any attention from a fan fair post I read earlier today here on the forums.</p><p>Not liking what I am seeing for this game but best of luck to ya!</p></blockquote><p>Mind linking that post?</p>

[Aull]

<p>Not sure who this was that posted it but here is where I read that. Might not be a dev writing it.<a href="http://www.epicslant.com/2010/08/eq2-and-class-balance/">http://www.epicslant.com/2010/08/eq...-class-balance/</a>. Hope that works. Anyway there it is for your reading pleasure.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not sure who this was that posted it but here is where I read that. Might not be a dev writing it.<a href="http://www.epicslant.com/2010/08/eq2-and-class-balance/">http://www.epicslant.com/2010/08/eq...-class-balance/</a>. Hope that works. Anyway there it is for your reading pleasure.</p></blockquote><p>I would take that one with a grain of salt, however, I can say if this class is not fixed before Velious launches I am done with this class, this game, and anything SOE because 5 years of dev neglect is enough for me.</p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not sure who this was that posted it but here is where I read that. Might not be a dev writing it.<a href="http://www.epicslant.com/2010/08/eq2-and-class-balance/">http://www.epicslant.com/2010/08/eq...-class-balance/</a>. Hope that works. Anyway there it is for your reading pleasure.</p></blockquote><p>I would take that one with a grain of salt, however, I can say if this class is not fixed before Velious launches I am done with this class, this game, and anything SOE because 5 years of dev neglect is enough for me.</p></blockquote><p>Not trying to be negative here but I don't think that any thing jaw dropping will happen for brawlers before Velious. Right now guards are the focal point and rightfully so.</p><p>I am just tired of really wanting to play my monk or bruiser but even my friends ask me to bring the zerker instead. The content being so aoe inclined is the reason. My friends think I like punishment since I have both brawlers lol. Oh well maybe times will change.</p><p>Take care.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not sure who this was that posted it but here is where I read that. Might not be a dev writing it.<a href="http://www.epicslant.com/2010/08/eq2-and-class-balance/">http://www.epicslant.com/2010/08/eq...-class-balance/</a>. Hope that works. Anyway there it is for your reading pleasure.</p></blockquote><p>I would take that one with a grain of salt, however, I can say if this class is not fixed before Velious launches I am done with this class, this game, and anything SOE because 5 years of dev neglect is enough for me.</p></blockquote><p>Not trying to be negative here but I don't think that any thing jaw dropping will happen for brawlers before Velious. Right now guards are the focal point and rightfully so.</p><p>I am just tired of really wanting to play my monk or bruiser but even my friends ask me to bring the zerker instead. The content being so aoe inclined is the reason. My friends think I like punishment since I have both brawlers lol. Oh well maybe times will change.</p><p>Take care.</p></blockquote><p>Fact is brawlers don't need jaw dropping.  Nothing in the guardian fix is jaw dropping.  Brawlers simply need more agro generation and some added utility.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Let me explain jaw dropping as for Aull. Dev response to brawler issues = jaw dropping.</p><p>Otherwise I agree BChizz with your statement(s).</p>

[Gilasil]

<p>Thanks for the link.  I guess that panel should be no surprise.  Business as usual for SoE.  I suppose the good news is lthey didn't make promises they weren't going to keep.</p><p>I'm getting back into the SoE sucks mood.  The brawler changes they made for SF WERE a step in the right direction.  It IS possible for brawlers to tank some raid mobs now.  But as I get more and more into it it's also obvious that there's still killer problems.  They still under tank and nowadays also under dps which means there's no real reason to bring one.  Even worse, SoE STILL has done nothing about the years old problem that 25% of active toons are fighters and nothing even close to 25% of raid slots are for fighters.  And now brawlers can't even make a case for being good dps. </p><p>They're probably good enough that for a lot of mobs if someone can't find a plate tank a brawler may do.  But you can't swing a dead cat without hitting half a dozen plate tanks.</p><p>If they had said something like one of their top priorities was to increase the demand for fighters in raids I might be willing to stick around.  Guess not.</p><p>That SoE routinely lets major problems fester for years also doesn't give me much hope for EQ Next even if it weren't years away.</p><p>I'm pretty much giving up on SoE and looking for a replacement.</p><p>Anyone know any good PvE MMOs out there not run by SoE? </p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Thanks for the link.  I guess that panel should be no surprise.  Business as usual for SoE.  I suppose the good news is lthey didn't make promises they weren't going to keep.</p><p>I'm getting back into the SoE sucks mood.  The brawler changes they made for SF WERE a step in the right direction.  It IS possible for brawlers to tank some raid mobs now.  But as I get more and more into it it's also obvious that there's still killer problems.  They still under tank and nowadays also under dps which means there's no real reason to bring one.  Even worse, SoE STILL has done nothing about the years old problem that 25% of active toons are fighters and nothing even close to 25% of raid slots are for fighters.  And now brawlers can't even make a case for being good dps. </p><p>They're probably good enough that for a lot of mobs if someone can't find a plate tank a brawler may do.  But you can't swing a dead cat without hitting half a dozen plate tanks.</p><p>If they had said something like one of their top priorities was to increase the demand for fighters in raids I might be willing to stick around.  Guess not.</p><p>That SoE routinely lets major problems fester for years also doesn't give me much hope for EQ Next even if it weren't years away.</p><p>I'm pretty much giving up on SoE and looking for a replacement.</p><p>Anyone know any good PvE MMOs out there not run by SoE? </p></blockquote><p>The irony is we could tank raid mobs before SF it just required the right gear.  Don't fool yourself, last expansion we were avoiding exactly the same amount over plate tanks while getting hit for exactly the same amount of difference.  Looking at my old Munzok parses the other day was very revealing, I had 70-75% avoidance and was being hit for roughly 20% more then our guard who had 60-65% avoidance, sound familiar anyone? </p><p>Now we are in a situation where again we can tank raid mobs in the right gear but now our agro has gotten worse compared to other tanks that nobody in their right mind would want a brawler in that spot.  We bring very little group utility (especially monks at least bruisers add to uncapped stats).</p><p>They need to add a group buff that is actually useful and up our dps plain and simple.</p>

[Damager]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Thanks for the link.  I guess that panel should be no surprise.  Business as usual for SoE.  I suppose the good news is lthey didn't make promises they weren't going to keep.</p><p>I'm getting back into the SoE sucks mood.  The brawler changes they made for SF WERE a step in the right direction.  It IS possible for brawlers to tank some raid mobs now.  But as I get more and more into it it's also obvious that there's still killer problems.  They still under tank and nowadays also under dps which means there's no real reason to bring one.  Even worse, SoE STILL has done nothing about the years old problem that 25% of active toons are fighters and nothing even close to 25% of raid slots are for fighters.  And now brawlers can't even make a case for being good dps. </p><p>They're probably good enough that for a lot of mobs if someone can't find a plate tank a brawler may do.  But you can't swing a dead cat without hitting half a dozen plate tanks.</p><p>If they had said something like one of their top priorities was to increase the demand for fighters in raids I might be willing to stick around.  Guess not.</p><p>That SoE routinely lets major problems fester for years also doesn't give me much hope for EQ Next even if it weren't years away.</p><p>I'm pretty much giving up on SoE and looking for a replacement.</p><p>Anyone know any good PvE MMOs out there not run by SoE? </p></blockquote><p>The irony is we could tank raid mobs before SF it just required the right gear.  Don't fool yourself, last expansion we were avoiding exactly the same amount over plate tanks while getting hit for exactly the same amount of difference.  Looking at my old Munzok parses the other day was very revealing, I had 70-75% avoidance and was being hit for roughly 20% more then our guard who had 60-65% avoidance, sound familiar anyone? </p><p>Now we are in a situation where again we can tank raid mobs in the right gear but now our agro has gotten worse compared to other tanks that nobody in their right mind would want a brawler in that spot.  We bring very little group utility (especially monks at least bruisers add to uncapped stats).</p><p>They need to add a group buff that is actually useful and up our dps plain and simple.</p></blockquote><p>I dissagree with the SF brawlers could tank raid mobs comment, Now hear me out on this one, yes they could tank them IF they where way over geared for the content and only a very few brawlers had access to that gear not to mention you needed a plate tank to get you the gear in the first place, Im pretty sure B when you guys first pulled a new mob you didnt say hey have the brawler tank it first.</p><p>I am sick of hearing about guardians needing work also, as a brawler and being the worst tank for years I have no sympathy for them at all, before I was fine with plates tanking when I had the clear dps advantage but now LOL! Brawlers have not a single up on plates we are out parsed, out tanked, Lower aggro and on some plates like pally out done in all 3 of those catagories, seriously?  </p><p>Lastly, after 5 years on EQ2 I canceled my second account 3 months ago and Im with Bchizz on this one if there is no love for brawlers soon I will be leaving completely as well, anyone who has stuck in with a brawler over the years probably has had enough as well. </p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Damager wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I dissagree with the SF brawlers could tank raid mobs comment, Now hear me out on this one, yes they could tank them IF they where way over geared for the content and only a very few brawlers had access to that gear not to mention you needed a plate tank to get you the gear in the first place, Im pretty sure B when you guys first pulled a new mob you didnt say hey have the brawler tank it first.</p><p>I am sick of hearing about guardians needing work also, as a brawler and being the worst tank for years I have no sympathy for them at all, before I was fine with plates tanking when I had the clear dps advantage but now LOL! Brawlers have not a single up on plates we are out parsed, out tanked, Lower aggro and on some plates like pally out done in all 3 of those catagories, seriously?  </p><p>Lastly, after 5 years on EQ2 I canceled my second account 3 months ago and Im with Bchizz on this one if there is no love for brawlers soon I will be leaving completely as well, anyone who has stuck in with a brawler over the years probably has had enough as well. </p></blockquote><p>So like in SF when has a new mob been pulled by a brawler?  Moreso, we are absolutely garbage as tanks in this expansion until we get some of the +mit items that drops from hodeedum hardmode mobs.  Basically it is the same situation.</p>

[Landiin]

<p>I call BS, BC isn't going to quit and neither are you, so shut the F up and and top off your sub... <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I call BS, BC isn't going to quit and neither are you, so shut the F up and and top off your sub... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>I traded a bunch of lon for soe timecards, I haven't actually paid for my sub in maybe 8 months and I don't foresee ever doing it if they don't fix my class.</p>

[Shredderr]

<p>at this point I am half inclined to just say let them eat cake ... I mean let them wear plate . But Idont like the look someone in soe  has definatly decided we were going to be the worst tank in every way and stay that way oh well they wanna see more and more SK's . The fact that sk's sometimes heal for over 1 million in relic games but really never even crit healed is just more evidence of the stupidity of whoever designed the class imo .</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not sure who this was that posted it but here is where I read that. Might not be a dev writing it.<a href="http://www.epicslant.com/2010/08/eq2-and-class-balance/">http://www.epicslant.com/2010/08/eq...-class-balance/</a>. Hope that works. Anyway there it is for your reading pleasure.</p></blockquote><p>I think we can put that post to rest, Xelgad said monks are on the radar on this thread <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=60&topic_id=482827" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=482827</a> and talked about a brawler ability so it would also effect bruisers.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Thanks for the update on that.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>As per Xelgad in that same thread cranetwirl is getting a 20% buff which addresses a HUGE concern area for brawlers with AE agro.</p>

[kuchi]

<p>Um....wow...really? really?  OK...your doing it wrong....</p><p>Let me start this with saying yes...brawlers need alittle more loving. A group buff would be nice aka on par with the plates.  Our offensive stance proc is a joke. I wish our blue aoes had more range to them. But....</p><p>Bruisers cant raid tank? um...wrong...last expansion..yes...i would say we were F'd in the A big time. This xpac...lets see...ive tanked hard mode tox(no we havent killed her but me staying up wasnt the issue) theer...and hard mode mal along with all the easy mode stuff.</p><p>No aoe aggro?! your kidding right? no we arent sk's or zerkers but seriously....as i stated I wouldnt mind more range on the blues to make picking stuff easier...but I have no problem holding aoe aggro. Maybe its a gear thing but Im not in some "avatar" killing guild..hell we just killed hard mod mal for the first time last night and he was the first hard mode mob we have killed. So I have all the crap you can have up to that point.</p><p>Instance wise Ive pulled 45k dps in big encounter fights...20-30kk in raid single target trash and im sure the bruisers that really know [Removed for Content] they are doing are pulling way bigger numbers. Our avoidance buff is HUGE! Hell...I avoid more for the MT then he does.</p><p>I gotta get back to work but I am disappointed with the crying here....people read this crap and it only enforces the brawlers suck sterotype. And as for the needing hard mode gear for mit...complete crap...try harder...</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>kuchi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Um....wow...really? really?  OK...your doing it wrong....</p><p>Let me start this with saying yes...brawlers need alittle more loving. A group buff would be nice aka on par with the plates.  Our offensive stance proc is a joke. I wish our blue aoes had more range to them. But....</p><p>Bruisers cant raid tank? um...wrong...last expansion..yes...i would say we were F'd in the A big time. This xpac...lets see...ive tanked hard mode tox(no we havent killed her but me staying up wasnt the issue) theer...and hard mode mal along with all the easy mode stuff.</p><p>No aoe aggro?! your kidding right? no we arent sk's or zerkers but seriously....as i stated I wouldnt mind more range on the blues to make picking stuff easier...but I have no problem holding aoe aggro. Maybe its a gear thing but Im not in some "avatar" killing guild..hell we just killed hard mod mal for the first time last night and he was the first hard mode mob we have killed. So I have all the crap you can have up to that point.</p><p>Instance wise Ive pulled 45k dps in big encounter fights...20-30kk in raid single target trash and im sure the bruisers that really know [Removed for Content] they are doing are pulling way bigger numbers. Our avoidance buff is HUGE! Hell...I avoid more for the MT then he does.</p><p>I gotta get back to work but I am disappointed with the crying here....people read this crap and it only enforces the brawlers suck sterotype. And as for the needing hard mode gear for mit...complete crap...try harder...</p></blockquote><p>You are talking about a completely different level of brawler tanking. Since you havent killed hm tox, I can only presume you are doing the easiest raids in the game which has less to do about gear restrictions and more to do with execution. Those npcs dont hit hard, they dont have high crit mit values, they dont have issues with randomly 1 shotting your tanks unless they are severly undergeared. The only point mit % matter for any tank is when they are getting hit by HM npcs that CAN one shot a tank. </p>

[kuchi]

<p>As you quote'd my post....im assuming you read it.</p><p>I tanked TOX....the dragon...as in hard mode.   As I said...me staying up wasnt the issue...it was me and an SK tanking Tox and a zerker on vulaan. We havent tried Tox in months but now that our confidence is up after finally getting a hard mode mob i hope we go back in there to try again.</p><p>Also...as I said in my post...I admit...I was not the MT for hard mode mal but I was the tank to pick him up when the MT got charmed....when I took mal...I did not get creamed...and yes...i blew all my temps when i took him and just had to rely on my healers and my "bruiserness". Not a problem.</p><p>If i remember correctly...tox was hitting me for something like 19k...but [Removed for Content]..hard mod mal hits like a [Removed for Content] freight train. If you know [Removed for Content] your doing  you know how to cycle thru your temps...I.E. our stoneskins from both brawler and tso aa lines...stonedeaf...both of our avoidance temps and deathsave you help your healers keep you up.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p><cite>kuchi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Um....wow...really? really?  OK...your doing it wrong....</p><p>Let me start this with saying yes...brawlers need alittle more loving. A group buff would be nice aka on par with the plates.  Our offensive stance proc is a joke. I wish our blue aoes had more range to them. But....</p><p>Bruisers cant raid tank? um...wrong...last expansion..yes...i would say we were F'd in the A big time. This xpac...lets see...ive tanked hard mode tox(no we havent killed her but me staying up wasnt the issue) theer...and hard mode mal along with all the easy mode stuff.</p><p>No aoe aggro?! your kidding right? no we arent sk's or zerkers but seriously....as i stated I wouldnt mind more range on the blues to make picking stuff easier...but I have no problem holding aoe aggro. Maybe its a gear thing but Im not in some "avatar" killing guild..hell we just killed hard mod mal for the first time last night and he was the first hard mode mob we have killed. So I have all the crap you can have up to that point.</p><p>Instance wise Ive pulled 45k dps in big encounter fights...20-30kk in raid single target trash and im sure the bruisers that really know [Removed for Content] they are doing are pulling way bigger numbers. Our avoidance buff is HUGE! Hell...I avoid more for the MT then he does.</p><p>I gotta get back to work but I am disappointed with the crying here....people read this crap and it only enforces the brawlers suck sterotype. And as for the needing hard mode gear for mit...complete crap...try harder...</p></blockquote><p>1) Brawlers absolutely can tank</p><p>2) Brawlers are better at tanking than we are at any other potential role (we are better tanks than dpsers, better tanks than utility, better tanks than healers)</p><p>3)Brawlers are worse at tanking than the 4 plate tanks.</p><p>No one is disputing #1 or #2 (or at least no one who knows what they are talking about is).  The issue is that while we are clearly tanks, we're just not quite as good at is as plates are.  Now, the gap is much, much, much smaller than it used to be.  SF is infinitely kinder to brawlers than TSO was.  But we're still a bit behind, mostly in that while we can actually reach comparable survivability to the plates, doing so will leave us with far less dps than a crusader or zerk with the same survivability.</p>

[kuchi]

<p>And I dont disagree with you that we do need some more tweaking. Our CA's are weak...and when tanking a raid mob hit rates are disgusting even with having all the +melee skill adorns i can put on.</p><p>I dont often come to these forums as I usually just lurk over on flames but when I started reading this thread i was simply....[Removed for Content] are they talking about.</p><p>Brawlers need some more loving without a doubt...but if you read this thread you would think the sky is falling and that brawlers couldnt tank a wet paper bag.</p><p>Or...possibly..Im doing it wrong....</p><p> OMG! Brawlers suck hard! Pls make us uber....or I will quit right now!</p>

[mr23sgte]

<p>Anything changed? I stopped playing shortly after SF launch. All I really noticed was the Brawler AA changed to add some AE auotattack.</p>