Instead of nerfing crit on fighters..... [Archive]

ruthlessG619

08-04-2010, 07:16 PM

Instead of nerfing heals from fighters being able to crit why don't you just remove potency from affecting figthers heals and reduce the benefit of crit bonus on fighter heals? Makes much more sense then just removing the ability to crit.

Mosha D'Khan

08-04-2010, 07:18 PM

<cite>ruthlessG619 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Instead of nerfing heals from fighters being able to crit why don't you just remove potency from affecting figthers heals and reduce the benefit of crit bonus on fighter heals? Makes much more sense then just removing the ability to crit.</blockquote>other than that is still a slap in the face, i know with me lossing a 50% potency and then a 40% crit bonus to heals is way worse than just the crit.

Kain-UK

08-04-2010, 08:19 PM

The reasoning for doing it (which I might be wrong on but I remember one of the dev's... think it was Xelgad... said it was because of Battle Frenzy) was because of %-based heals.They could just lower our starting crit bonus and not allow % heals to crit for fighters. Problem solved.

Transen

08-04-2010, 08:28 PM

Ever get the feeling that they made this public so that the real change they plan on implementing won't seem so bad? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" />/equips Helm of Tinfoil

Mosha D'Khan

08-04-2010, 08:45 PM

<cite>Archan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The reasoning for doing it (which I might be wrong on but I remember one of the dev's... think it was Xelgad... said it was because of Battle Frenzy) was because of %-based heals.They could just lower our starting crit bonus and not allow % heals to crit for fighters. Problem solved.</blockquote>still not fixed you would take 10% of my death prevent, 25% off my self heal, and 14% off my myth heal. and they are not OP or underpowered atm. they just need to fix the spells that are causing the problems, not every class

aias

08-04-2010, 09:59 PM

This is all because of Battlegrounds. Battle Frenzy was nerfed once already for Battlegrounds by limiting it's procs. While there at it they can remove crit bonus from healer damage spells. Might as well be consistent with this silly approach of "fixing".

Kain-UK

08-04-2010, 10:55 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>still not fixed you would take 10% of my death prevent, 25% off my self heal, and 14% off my myth heal. and they are not OP or underpowered atm. they just need to fix the spells that are causing the problems, not every class</blockquote>Suck it up and compromise?The dev's are going to do it regardless. It's better to seek a compromise than cry, moan and throw your toys out.

ruthlessG619

08-04-2010, 11:12 PM

<cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>{0}</blockquote>So what? Sounds like you want to be a one man army and don't need healers to use their spells. I have both a healer and a tank and you know what , 90% of my grouping in dungeons as a healer is doing dmg because tanks as is right now are walking juggernauts. As a tank half the time I tell my healer don't worry about heals this mob is gonna die anyways and it won't kill me + i have yet to need to put on ANY defensive gear or stonewill items. Besides raiding what's the point being a healer if tanks don't need them for instances.

Mosha D'Khan

08-05-2010, 09:17 AM

<cite>ruthlessG619 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>{0}</blockquote>So what? Sounds like you want to be a one man army and don't need healers to use their spells. I have both a healer and a tank and you know what , 90% of my grouping in dungeons as a healer is doing dmg because tanks as is right now are walking juggernauts. As a tank half the time I tell my healer don't worry about heals this mob is gonna die anyways and it won't kill me + i have yet to need to put on ANY defensive gear or stonewill items. Besides raiding what's the point being a healer if tanks don't need them for instances. </blockquote>sorry i am not a walking juggernaut, but dont matter now any more, this nerf and the new free server has caused my guild to collaspe when rift comes out. so will go play thereThanks SoE!!!!

guillero

08-05-2010, 09:45 AM

<cite>ruthlessG619 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>{0}</blockquote>So what? Sounds like you want to be a one man army and don't need healers to use their spells. I have both a healer and a tank and you know what , 90% of my grouping in dungeons as a healer is doing dmg because tanks as is right now are walking juggernauts. As a tank half the time I tell my healer don't worry about heals this mob is gonna die anyways and it won't kill me + i have yet to need to put on ANY defensive gear or stonewill items. Besides raiding what's the point being a healer if tanks don't need them for instances. </blockquote>LOL! What walking jugernauts?? I am a Paladin and never been like that.You are talking about a very small percentage of players that /beat the game, got the top end RAID gear and then jump back down the ladder doing Heroic instances!Wich is like a lvl90 jumping back doing lvl50 heroic content. Ofcourse you are then OP and destroy everything!The Heroic content is balanced for the average person in average gear (legendary/MC stuff) and NOT people fully geared in Top End RAID gear and Master Spells/abilities and maxed out AA !!And instead of fixing and adjusting THAT! They just go the usual easymode route and cast a blanket out nerf and screw over everyone else that isn't wearing Top End RAID gear! Wich is the vast majority of players.Completely ridiculous! Me, as the casual average player, who will never ever see any Top End RAID gear, gets his favorite class nerfed into oblivion for NO REASON!This blanket out nerf isn't going to fix anything! As people with Top End RAID gear, Master spells and maxed out AA will still be ridiculously OP.

Marcusaval

08-05-2010, 10:16 AM

<cite>Jerokane@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ruthlessG619 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>{0}</blockquote>So what? Sounds like you want to be a one man army and don't need healers to use their spells. I have both a healer and a tank and you know what , 90% of my grouping in dungeons as a healer is doing dmg because tanks as is right now are walking juggernauts. As a tank half the time I tell my healer don't worry about heals this mob is gonna die anyways and it won't kill me + i have yet to need to put on ANY defensive gear or stonewill items. Besides raiding what's the point being a healer if tanks don't need them for instances. </blockquote>LOL! What walking jugernauts?? I am a Paladin and never been like that.You are talking about a very small percentage of players that /beat the game, got the top end RAID gear and then jump back down the ladder doing Heroic instances!Wich is like a lvl90 jumping back doing lvl50 heroic content. Ofcourse you are then OP and destroy everything!The Heroic content is balanced for the average person in average gear (legendary/MC stuff) and NOT people fully geared in Top End RAID gear and Master Spells/abilities and maxed out AA !!And instead of fixing and adjusting THAT! They just go the usual easymode route and cast a blanket out nerf and screw over everyone else that isn't wearing Top End RAID gear! Wich is the vast majority of players.Completely ridiculous! Me, as the casual average player, who will never ever see any Top End RAID gear, gets his favorite class nerfed into oblivion for NO REASON!This blanket out nerf isn't going to fix anything! As people with Top End RAID gear, Master spells and maxed out AA will still be ridiculously OP.</blockquote>I totally agree the Nerf is ill considered and arbitary in its application I am raid fabled but T1 stuff. I cannot mess around in instances I can pull a few more mobs and live than someone in legendary but I still need a healer. There are perhaps a handfull of Paladins in the world with T3 raid fabled gear and contested mob equipment who can perhap behave with total impunity in a level 90 instance but even then I doubt they can solo the zones or do them without a healer. If those same Paladins are playing with some of their hardcore friends form the same guilds with the occasional outsider they will look insanely good compared with the average player.

Randomaxe

08-05-2010, 10:19 AM

It really doesn't matter how many posts we place on the forums denouncing this action. It will happen, because EQ2 is a PvP driven game. I can remember hitting Battle Frenzy when BG's first opened, and topping the parse most of the time. Yeah the proc nerf sucked, but maybe it was due. This business about eliminating crits on fighter heals is absolute BS. People complain about fighters outhealing templars and defilers--how about those classes parsing better than some fighters? If you remove our ability to crit personal heals, at least do the reverse and eliminate healer crits on offensive damage. You want balance--there it is. Do I want to see any of this happen? No. But to be fair, this is the route you should take. It would make tanks spec for damage absorbtion, and healers spec for healing, which is probably what you're trying to aim for with class itemization.At any rate, my interest in EQ2 is diminishing quickly. My wife and I each have our own accounts, but with every revamp the development team makes because of an elite few, we're coming to the conclusion that perhaps a fresh, new experience is necessary. RIFT? Black Prophecy? Perhaps, but what I do know is that this game has lost it's flavor. Fan Faire will solve nothing, and neither will our ranting. Adios.

Yimway

08-05-2010, 12:02 PM

<cite>Jerokane@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Heroic content is balanced for the average person in average gear (legendary/MC stuff) and NOT people fully geared in Top End RAID gear and Master Spells/abilities and maxed out AA !!</blockquote>Interesting.Cause I checked my most recent alt out wearing no fabled pieces.Seems he has 100% crit, 28% potency, and 32% Crit Bonus. I'm pretty sure he could get even more in these stats without getting raid gear. A tank with self heals, similar numbers, and using the proc items available from instances and BG's, will start pushing out of bounds heals without adorning raid gear.While the issue is more observable wqith 70% potency and 90% CB, the same rapid growth of non-core class abilities is apparent.

Yimway

08-05-2010, 12:12 PM

<cite>Randomaxe wrote:</cite><blockquote> If you remove our ability to crit personal heals, at least do the reverse and eliminate healer crits on offensive damage. You want balance--there it is. Do I want to see any of this happen? No. But to be fair, this is the route you should take.</blockquote>It *might* happen. Currently though itemization is serving to keep them in bounds, cause in order to truely maximize their dps they have to adorn items with blue stats that don't have regular stats in thier core stat. In essence they sacrafice healing potential to raise dps. Tanks are not sacraficing anything to up their heals, in fact the same gear/stats that up their core abilities are also uping thier heals. That is specifically why we have this nerf coming in.If an itemized set of say melee warden gear existed this expansion (rather than them using brawler gear for melee dps), then the issue on healers would be more pronounced. As long as melee priests are putting on offensive tank pieces and spell casting priests are wearing cloth peices to maximize dps and taking a penalty to healing, it may curtail the consolidate crit nerf to those hybrids.I fear velious will introduce that set of gear, and then we'll be looking at the similar nerf to healers 6 months after launch.

Obadiah

08-05-2010, 12:44 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jerokane@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Heroic content is balanced for the average person in average gear (legendary/MC stuff) and NOT people fully geared in Top End RAID gear and Master Spells/abilities and maxed out AA !!</blockquote>Interesting.Cause I checked my most recent alt out wearing no fabled pieces.Seems he has 100% crit, 28% potency, and 32% Crit Bonus. I'm pretty sure he could get even more in these stats without getting raid gear. A tank with self heals, similar numbers, and using the proc items available from instances and BG's, will start pushing out of bounds heals without adorning raid gear.While the issue is more observable with 70% potency and 90% CB, the same rapid growth of non-core class abilities is apparent.</blockquote>Seems odd that it wasn't apparent when everyone on the beta server had full sets of top notch fabled gear and proc gear that hadn't yet been nerfed. Maybe it would have been a good idea to have gear finished more than a week before launch. Maybe item decay would have been a good idea. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />This was the least-finished expansion they ever put out. In retrospect I guess it shouldn't be surprising that the wholesale mechanics changes they made had some "unforeseen" consequences and required a wholesale mechanics change halfway through the expansion. This fix, though, isn't ALL the changes that they will be making in this regard. All the more reason it's nonsensical. You KNOW there will be more, for other archetypes. It would make a lot more sense IMO to make wholesale changes to their wholesale changes ALL AT ONCE. Don't put us into a half-finished state, that may NEVER see it's completiion a la the Fighter Revamp with TSO. Do it all at once or wait until you can. First release your "New Grand Explanation" of the classes, then implement it. (See what I did there) <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> Those of us that are quitting seem to be doing so because of a lack of this vision; it's this complete lack of foresight that allows these exact same scenarios to play out over and over and over again.It's not so much that these are significant changes. For Berserkers, SKs, and Brawlers it's not a big difference. Sort of like the 10-month past-due Bane Warding change last GU wasn't. I can solo exactly the same things on my Defiler that I could before that change, I just have no desire to do so anymore. I seem to be able to solo pretty much the same things on my Berserker on Test that I can on Live too. So ... that being the case ... what, exactly is the point? Where are we (well ... you) going?

Yimway

08-05-2010, 01:00 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>This was the least-finished expansion they ever put out. In retrospect I guess it shouldn't be surprising that the wholesale mechanics changes they made had some "unforeseen" consequences and required a wholesale mechanics change halfway through the expansion. This fix, though, isn't ALL the changes that they will be making in this regard. All the more reason it's nonsensical. You KNOW there will be more, for other archetypes. It would make a lot more sense IMO to make wholesale changes to their wholesale changes ALL AT ONCE. Don't put us into a half-finished state, that may NEVER see it's completiion a la the Fighter Revamp with TSO. Do it all at once or wait until you can. </blockquote>You may very well be right on this, but Xelgad has made a number of statements that indicate to me that he intends to keep putting more changes out, some of them like guard revamp even between GU's.Maybe I'm foolishly optomistic, but I'm inclined to see if they follow thru with more frequent tweaking to keep the game in tune.Honestly, I think the length of time between these changes, and letting people get to accustomed to things that are out of tune is almost a bigger issue than anything else. The longer you play the game in an OP state, the more you resist the change.When you discover a broken mechanic and its fixed shortly there after, you more easily shrug it off as, yeah I can see how that probably should not have been possible. But when you have it for 6-12 months and they take it away, you feel like, how can I get things done now without it?

Obadiah

08-05-2010, 02:00 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>You may very well be right on this, but Xelgad has made a number of statements that indicate to me that he intends to keep putting more changes out, some of them like guard revamp even between GU's.Maybe I'm foolishly optimistic, but I'm inclined to see if they follow thru with more frequent tweaking to keep the game in tune.Honestly, I think the length of time between these changes, and letting people get to accustomed to things that are out of tune is almost a bigger issue than anything else. The longer you play the game in an OP state, the more you resist the change.When you discover a broken mechanic and its fixed shortly there after, you more easily shrug it off as, yeah I can see how that probably should not have been possible. But when you have it for 6-12 months and they take it away, you feel like, how can I get things done now without it?</blockquote>I don't see any signs that this will ever happen. And this isn't a broken mechanic, per se, but a math error on their part. A "working as intended" mechanic with wholly predictable effects to anyone with a calculator.I guess you could be optimistic and look at the between-GU Guardian changes as a positive sign. Or you could note that they are somewhere between 6 and 18 months past due and yet still couldn't be worked into GU57. Or that they arguably aren't the class most in need of adjustments like this anyway. Or that despite knowing full well what they are they won't even share what the larger "mechanics change" is that is also a part of those changes. Instead of pushing mechanics changes in GU after GU that have a minimal impact in the present game and just serve to tick people off, they could have opted fixing something like Call of the Veteran. They could have put the Guardian changes in. They could have tweaked Rangers to make them more "Ranged". They could have addressed errantly expiring instances that have occurred since persistent instances were created. Oh well.

Yimway

08-05-2010, 02:18 PM

Honestly, I think you're right and I'm being overly optimistic.This fighter heal issue was clearly pointed out in beta and we got a 'working as intended' message then. Granted I recall the issue framed as 'mobs not hitting hard enough cause my zerker can solo kill dozens of heroic mobs simultaneously while solo', and SoE's response was 'the mobs were hitting fine, your gear is outclassing the content'.So you're right, they looked the issued dead-on in beta and summarily ignored it, to only nerf it after it was on live for so long. The only mistake was not recognizing players were claiming mobs were too soft cause the gear and bonuses made them that way.

Aule

08-05-2010, 02:36 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, I think you're right and I'm being overly optimistic.This fighter heal issue was clearly pointed out in beta and we got a 'working as intended' message then. Granted I recall the issue framed as 'mobs not hitting hard enough cause my zerker can solo kill dozens of heroic mobs simultaneously while solo', and SoE's response was 'the mobs were hitting fine, your gear is outclassing the content'.So you're right, they looked the issued dead-on in beta and summarily ignored it, to only nerf it after it was on live for so long. The only mistake was not recognizing players were claiming mobs were too soft cause the gear and bonuses made them that way.</blockquote>I recall this thread from the beta forums and that's a spot-on reference.

KNINE

08-06-2010, 04:12 AM

<cite>ruthlessG619 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Instead of nerfing heals from fighters being able to crit why don't you just remove potency from affecting figthers heals and reduce the benefit of crit bonus on fighter heals? Makes much more sense then just removing the ability to crit.</blockquote>There is no right way to fix what they messed up with crit consolidation. If they would've left the crits alone then fighters wouldn't be criting heals 100% of the time anyway and there would be no problem.. but since they didn't think anything through before they put it in game, well now we have this.. and with this will come something different and we will get used to playing through it and then bam they will hit us with yet again another change to mess something else up.. no such thing as fixing stuff here.. just breaking it more

LardLord

08-06-2010, 05:05 AM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>This was the least-finished expansion they ever put out. In retrospect I guess it shouldn't be surprising that the wholesale mechanics changes they made had some "unforeseen" consequences and required a wholesale mechanics change halfway through the expansion. This fix, though, isn't ALL the changes that they will be making in this regard. All the more reason it's nonsensical. You KNOW there will be more, for other archetypes. It would make a lot more sense IMO to make wholesale changes to their wholesale changes ALL AT ONCE. Don't put us into a half-finished state, that may NEVER see it's completiion a la the Fighter Revamp with TSO. Do it all at once or wait until you can. </blockquote>You mean that you're expecting other aspects of crit consolidation to be reversed? I think fighter healing is all that needs to be addressed in this way. According to Xelgad, fighter heals are balanced as personal survivability tools against other survivability tools, such as stoneskin and damage mitigation abilities. If fighter heals were balanced against priest heals, I assume the change would not be happening, since priest heals scale with crit bonus, and fighter heals would need to scale in the same way in order to keep up. From what I can tell, the reason for the change in mechanics is to correct a scaling problem. Sure, they could adjust abilities individually, but as long as those abilities scale faster with gear than their counterparts (stoneskins, ect), it's just a matter of time before they're out of balance again.By contrast, consider priest DPS. Only the developers can tell us what factors go into balancing priest DPS, but one balance I've always been aware of in previous expansions is Fury personal DPS versus Inquisitor offensive utility. At the start of previous expansions, Fury personal DPS may have been close to offsetting the group DPS gained by an Inquisitor's superior offensive utility. However, Fury DPS didn't scale fast enough with gear, so as people got better gear, Inquisitors ended up giving groups more overall DPS. To illustrate the point in very simple terms, say Inquisitor utility offers a 10% boost to group DPS, which starts the expansion at 10K. Furies do 1K more personal DPS than Inquisitors, so groups do about the same DPS whether they have an Inquisitor or a Fury. As the expansion progresses, DPS classes get full benefit from gear, so they're able to double their DPS, but Furies are only able to increase their DPS by 30% with whatever mage gear they happen to be able to wear. By the end of this example expansion, the Inquisitor is contributing around 2K DPS to the group, while the Fury is only contributing 1.3K. With stat consolidation, that would not have been a problem, since Fury DPS would have scaled at the appropriate rate. Of course, they might just intend for priests to max out at X% of T1 DPS, and if that is the case, then priest DPS obviously needs to scale proportionally to T1 DPS. Stat consolidation helps with that.Granted, priest DPS abilities are more powerful as a result of stat consolidation, so I wouldn't be surprised if individual abilities are nerfed down to be in line with their intended potency. However, I would be surprised if crit consolidation is reversed for priests, since it seems like that reversal would make classes harder to balance over the long term (which is in contrast to the fighter change, which seems to make those classes easier to balance long term).

Obadiah

08-06-2010, 11:14 AM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>According to Xelgad, fighter heals are balanced as personal survivability tools against other survivability tools, such as stoneskin and damage mitigation abilities. If fighter heals were balanced against priest heals, I assume the change would not be happening, since priest heals scale with crit bonus, and fighter heals would need to scale in the same way in order to keep up. From what I can tell, the reason for the change in mechanics is to correct a scaling problem. Sure, they could adjust abilities individually, but as long as those abilities scale faster with gear than their counterparts (stoneskins, ect), it's just a matter of time before they're out of balance again.</blockquote>They still don't balance with Stoneskins. They never will equate to stoneskins because it's not mathematically possible.Stoneskins are substantially more powerful than any heals on Live against hard hitting mobs, Reactive heals like Battle Frenzy are more powerful than Stoneskins against lots of not-so-hard hitting mobs. So it is and ever shall be. As mobs start hitting harder, the Stoneskin becomes dramatically preferable. Furthermore because they aren't thrown in your face on ACT (you have to look at the avoidance report to see them, and even then they are not attributed to the specific toon) they will be more powerful than heals for a long time before anything is ever done about it. All praise the parse.If the intent was to balance the Fighter Heals with other damage reduction/avoidance/mitigation abilities, it missed. Cripple the heals and eventually (if not immediately) the Stoneskins will be infinitely superior, but it will always depend on the content. Heals will be [even more] useless in raid content, Stoneskins will [continue to] be irrelevant in easy content. We've been there before.You know, there's really no reason abilities like Last Man Standing couldn't crit either. 7 Triggers by default ... 10.5 (10) with 50% Potency ... 17 with some Crit Bonus ...

Yimway

08-06-2010, 11:47 AM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stoneskins are substantially more powerful than any heals on Live against hard hitting mobs, Reactive heals like Battle Frenzy are more powerful than Stoneskins against lots of not-so-hard hitting mobs. So it is and ever shall be. As mobs start hitting harder, the Stoneskin becomes dramatically preferable. Furthermore because they aren't thrown in your face on ACT (you have to look at the avoidance report to see them, and even then they are not attributed to the specific toon) they will be more powerful than heals for a long time before anything is ever done about it. All praise the parse.</blockquote>Doesn't this help carve fighters into better roles though? Stoneskin orriented tanks would make as good add tanks, and reactive / aoe tap tanks make better OT classes.I still think make paladin hate more ST focused and replace a couple of their blue's with stoneskins, and you're left with 2 plate tanks to compete for MT slots and 2 plate tanks to compete for OT slots. But my opinions are clearly biased since this is exactly the way I suggested balancing them.

Obadiah

08-06-2010, 12:15 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stoneskins are substantially more powerful than any heals on Live against hard hitting mobs, Reactive heals like Battle Frenzy are more powerful than Stoneskins against lots of not-so-hard hitting mobs. So it is and ever shall be. As mobs start hitting harder, the Stoneskin becomes dramatically preferable. Furthermore because they aren't thrown in your face on ACT (you have to look at the avoidance report to see them, and even then they are not attributed to the specific toon) they will be more powerful than heals for a long time before anything is ever done about it. All praise the parse.</blockquote>Doesn't this help carve fighters into better roles though? Stoneskin orriented tanks would make as good add tanks, and reactive / aoe tap tanks make better OT classes.I still think make paladin hate more ST focused and replace a couple of their blue's with stoneskins, and you're left with 2 plate tanks to compete for MT slots and 2 plate tanks to compete for OT slots. But my opinions are clearly biased since this is exactly the way I suggested balancing them.</blockquote>It absolutely does, yes.Xelgad, however, stated that Battle Frenzy was supposed to be balanced with Last Man Standing. If that's the case then Battle Frenzy is in need of a serious boost. I don't for a moment think it IS in need of a serious boost, don't get me wrong. I simply think the notion of balancing the two against one another is poppycock. They are different, and using that comparison as justification for this change doesn't work.In theory there's not necessarily a problem with your proposals for balancing the tanks. In practice though, since for two expansions things have trended toward "Everyone can do anything" and "You all get basically the same stuff", there are a lot of Fighters in MT roles that would be forced to change classes if you made it significantly more difficult for, say, a Berserker to act as MT. That doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do, but there would most definitely be some attrition associated with it.The content doesn't really support it either. I've said several times I think the 1-Tank, 23-Others model should be shot. But that's still what it is at the core. Sure, there are exceptions, but that's the crux of it.

Yimway

08-06-2010, 12:36 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Xelgad, however, stated that Battle Frenzy was supposed to be balanced with Last Man Standing. If that's the case then Battle Frenzy is in need of a serious boost. I don't for a moment think it IS in need of a serious boost, don't get me wrong. I simply think the notion of balancing the two against one another is poppycock. They are different, and using that comparison as justification for this change doesn't work.</blockquote>Oh, yes, I agree, its poppycock, and not the rationalization I would have used. And I agree, its not in need of a boost, but I see where you are going with that.<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>In theory there's not necessarily a problem with your proposals for balancing the tanks. In practice though, since for two expansions things have trended toward "Everyone can do anything" and "You all get basically the same stuff", there are a lot of Fighters in MT roles that would be forced to change classes if you made it significantly more difficult for, say, a Berserker to act as MT. That doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do, but there would most definitely be some attrition associated with it.</blockquote>Well my proposal for balancing is based upon the notion of "everyone can do everything" isn't tenable for 6 classes, and we need to throw that crap out the window. If SoE announces with their class layout that this 'everyone can do everything' is the goal, then I'll shut up and shelf my tanks.My opinions is, it is better to have 2 classes can be the best at X, the next two at Y, and the last two at Z. Give them each a single ability that crosses into the other roles, and let people adjust to that. In the end, it will be more manageable for SoE going forward in Class Balancing, Itemization, and Content Design having set roles to develop to.

Kilnger

08-06-2010, 01:19 PM

I think the chunk of this change has been mired in "We are now nerfed, woe is us" talk more then anything else. The main question I feel that should be addressed is what are the fighter options or even benefits the crit change makes in the long run? Ignoring the other classes, could this change actually lead to something positive?Example: Fighter heals cannot crit. It's shown when it goes live that stoneskins far outclass healing, and then some. In response, SoE makes all fighter heals (including paladin group heals and the like) % based off the tank's health (or some equivalent change).Obviously, this is a rather ridiculous suggestion, but we do have a new expansion on the horizon. It's almost a given there's going to be some manner of major mechanics change showing up again then, so why sweat this change now? I'm not saying that this is a minor change, because it is really big, but what do other people see as coming -for fighters- with the heal crits being removed?

Obadiah

08-06-2010, 01:26 PM

<cite>Kilnger wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's almost a given there's going to be some manner of major mechanics change showing up again then, so why sweat this change now? I'm not saying that this is a minor change, because it is really big, but what do other people see as coming -for fighters- with the heal crits being removed?</blockquote>Exactly. Why make this change now. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />Seriously though, if it was made alongside the "major mechanics change" maybe it wouldn't be an issue. If it was made with some sort of insight into what this New Grand Explanation of all of the classes is, maybe it wouldn't be an issue. Instead it's made with no information other than "some numbers are too high" and the only example provided is a comparison of two abilities that are like Apples and Pork Chops and between which there can be no direct comparison.Neat.

Yimway

08-06-2010, 01:29 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seriously though, if it was made alongside the "major mechanics change" maybe it wouldn't be an issue. If it was made with some sort of insight into what this New Grand Explanation of all of the classes is, maybe it wouldn't be an issue. Instead it's made with no information other than "some numbers are too high" and the only example provided is a comparison of two abilities that are like Apples and Pork Chops and between which there can be no direct comparison.</blockquote>There is atleast one panel this week at FF on mechanics, hopefully some vision will be shared there.At this point, we're all just guessing at the intended direction.

LardLord

08-06-2010, 03:43 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>According to Xelgad, fighter heals are balanced as personal survivability tools against other survivability tools, such as stoneskin and damage mitigation abilities. If fighter heals were balanced against priest heals, I assume the change would not be happening, since priest heals scale with crit bonus, and fighter heals would need to scale in the same way in order to keep up. From what I can tell, the reason for the change in mechanics is to correct a scaling problem. Sure, they could adjust abilities individually, but as long as those abilities scale faster with gear than their counterparts (stoneskins, ect), it's just a matter of time before they're out of balance again.</blockquote>They still don't balance with Stoneskins. They never will equate to stoneskins because it's not mathematically possible.Stoneskins are substantially more powerful than any heals on Live against hard hitting mobs, Reactive heals like Battle Frenzy are more powerful than Stoneskins against lots of not-so-hard hitting mobs. So it is and ever shall be. As mobs start hitting harder, the Stoneskin becomes dramatically preferable. Furthermore because they aren't thrown in your face on ACT (you have to look at the avoidance report to see them, and even then they are not attributed to the specific toon) they will be more powerful than heals for a long time before anything is ever done about it. All praise the parse.If the intent was to balance the Fighter Heals with other damage reduction/avoidance/mitigation abilities, it missed. Cripple the heals and eventually (if not immediately) the Stoneskins will be infinitely superior, but it will always depend on the content. Heals will be [even more] useless in raid content, Stoneskins will [continue to] be irrelevant in easy content. We've been there before.You know, there's really no reason abilities like Last Man Standing couldn't crit either. 7 Triggers by default ... 10.5 (10) with 50% Potency ... 17 with some Crit Bonus ...</blockquote>Battle Frenzy and Last Man Standing can still be balanced against each other, even though they have different strengths and weaknesses as abilities.EDIT: If we say that SKs have better DPS and Guardians have better survivability, and so it is and shall ever be, do we not care how much more DPS the SK does or how much more survivable the Guardian is?

Obadiah

08-06-2010, 03:49 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Battle Frenzy and Last Man Standing can still be balanced against each other, even though they have different strengths and weaknesses as abilities.</blockquote>I guess if only Xelgad understood that this entire conversation would never have taken place.

LardLord

08-06-2010, 04:12 PM

<cite>Kilnger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Example: Fighter heals cannot crit. It's shown when it goes live that stoneskins far outclass healing, and then some. In response, SoE makes all fighter heals (including paladin group heals and the like) % based off the tank's health (or some equivalent change).Obviously, this is a rather ridiculous suggestion, but we do have a new expansion on the horizon. It's almost a given there's going to be some manner of major mechanics change showing up again then, so why sweat this change now? I'm not saying that this is a minor change, because it is really big, but what do other people see as coming -for fighters- with the heal crits being removed?</blockquote>Ridiculous!? That'd be the easiest way to balance heals by far, I think (assuming they aren't modifiable)...the only problem is that it kinda makes things more bland. Incoming damage scales with your max HP (if you're supposed to have twice as much health for the content, you'll get hit twice as hard), and stoneskins and similar abilities scale with incoming damage, so scaling heals with your max HP would be a great way to balance the rate that those abilities grow with gear.

ruthlessG619

08-09-2010, 07:33 PM

<cite>Jerokane@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ruthlessG619 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mosha DKhan wrote:</cite><blockquote>{0}</blockquote>So what? Sounds like you want to be a one man army and don't need healers to use their spells. I have both a healer and a tank and you know what , 90% of my grouping in dungeons as a healer is doing dmg because tanks as is right now are walking juggernauts. As a tank half the time I tell my healer don't worry about heals this mob is gonna die anyways and it won't kill me + i have yet to need to put on ANY defensive gear or stonewill items. Besides raiding what's the point being a healer if tanks don't need them for instances. </blockquote>LOL! What walking jugernauts?? I am a Paladin and never been like that.You are talking about a very small percentage of players that /beat the game, got the top end RAID gear and then jump back down the ladder doing Heroic instances!Wich is like a lvl90 jumping back doing lvl50 heroic content. Ofcourse you are then OP and destroy everything!The Heroic content is balanced for the average person in average gear (legendary/MC stuff) and NOT people fully geared in Top End RAID gear and Master Spells/abilities and maxed out AA !!And instead of fixing and adjusting THAT! They just go the usual easymode route and cast a blanket out nerf and screw over everyone else that isn't wearing Top End RAID gear! Wich is the vast majority of players.Completely ridiculous! Me, as the casual average player, who will never ever see any Top End RAID gear, gets his favorite class nerfed into oblivion for NO REASON!This blanket out nerf isn't going to fix anything! As people with Top End RAID gear, Master spells and maxed out AA will still be ridiculously OP.</blockquote>Sounds to me like your not a really good player then. Paladins in legendary NON raid gear or bg gear can self heal themselves thru almost half of these instances..... The only instances i actually want a healer on is erudin palace the vigilant zones , and maybe cella if im lazy.... (I actually tested this on my Paladin with only LEGENDARY gear on, i purposely removed my raid gear)...

dpsman

08-09-2010, 08:35 PM

<cite>Randomaxe wrote:</cite><blockquote>It really doesn't matter how many posts we place on the forums denouncing this action. It will happen, because EQ2 is a PvP driven game. I can remember hitting Battle Frenzy when BG's first opened, and topping the parse most of the time. Yeah the proc nerf sucked, but maybe it was due. This business about eliminating crits on fighter heals is absolute BS. People complain about fighters outhealing templars and defilers--how about those classes parsing better than some fighters? If you remove our ability to crit personal heals, at least do the reverse and eliminate healer crits on offensive damage. You want balance--there it is. Do I want to see any of this happen? No. But to be fair, this is the route you should take. It would make tanks spec for damage absorbtion, and healers spec for healing, which is probably what you're trying to aim for with class itemization.At any rate, my interest in EQ2 is diminishing quickly. My wife and I each have our own accounts, but with every revamp the development team makes because of an elite few, we're coming to the conclusion that perhaps a fresh, new experience is necessary. RIFT? Black Prophecy? Perhaps, but what I do know is that this game has lost it's flavor. Fan Faire will solve nothing, and neither will our ranting. Adios.</blockquote>Agreed the posts won't stop the nerfs, this game seems to be ran by the fanboys these days, back before LU13 it was Gaige championing for fighter changes that ultimately nerfed Guardians into nothing and now we have Atan this time aroundI will never experience these new nerfs as I have already cancelled all my accounts as well as my sons and my wifes. The game is becoming gimper each day.

Obadiah

08-09-2010, 09:20 PM

<cite>ruthlessG619 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sounds to me like your not a really good player then. Paladins in legendary NON raid gear or bg gear can self heal themselves thru almost half of these instances..... The only instances i actually want a healer on is erudin palace the vigilant zones , and maybe cella if im lazy.... (I actually tested this on my Paladin with only LEGENDARY gear on, i purposely removed my raid gear)... </blockquote>And your point is ... ? You can do it on Test then too. And so can a Guardian. SO why exactly are we doing this instead of fixing the content again?