Why not remove betrayal quest? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Chanson

07-29-2010, 01:09 PM

One of the reasons (and I think the biggest if not only reason) to betray was to have a unique race/class combo. You could only have a high-elf inquisitor if you betrayed to freeport, or a dark-elf ranger if you betrayed to qeynos. If you are going to make nearly all classes neutral, why not just remove the betrayal quest and allow people to move to whatever city they wish?For the record, I'm against the additional classes being neutral, but if it's gonna happen then I don't see the point of having a betrayal quest to go from Qeynos/Kelethin/New Halas to Freeport/Gorowyn/Neriak and vice versa.

Derri

07-29-2010, 01:56 PM

The betrayal quests also facilitate switching between classes, and I don't think switching between classes should become trivial.

awny

07-29-2010, 01:57 PM

no, the need to switch no longer exsists with this change. You can create your Ratonga Cleric if you want from the get go. and I'm sure you will be able to 'purchase' a class change on the marketplace soon enough

Chanson

07-29-2010, 02:02 PM

<cite>Derri@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The betrayal quests also facilitate switching between classes, and I don't think switching between classes should become trivial.</blockquote>My point is that most betrayals were so that people could be a unique race/class. You no longer need to make a high-elf templar and betray to freeport to be a high-elf inquisitor, you can start out as a high-elf inquisitor. So what's the point in having a betrayal quest? They can make changing cities open to all cities and make a different quest if you are just wanting to change your class (until they add the class change potions that is).

Irgun

07-29-2010, 02:34 PM

"Servants of Freeport, citizens of Qeynos, heralds of Gorowyn, soldiers of Neriak, warriors of Halas and diviners of Kelethin - rejoice! The recent return of the overlord of Freeport, Lucan D'Lere, has changed the relationship between factions of Norrath!""Maybe not grateful, but with respect the overlord has convinced his fellowship city leaders to open their ressources against any common foe awaiting us in the future"-------------I hate roleplay in general, but such update notes would be a good idea to open any faction aligned quests for anyone, including city writs - and those should be used as a new betrayal quest - if a paladin for example has done enough city writs to get max faction and titles from freeport e.g., he has not only the opportunity to buy earned titles, but furthermore he gets the option to betray to freeport and to become a shadowknight.So: betrayal would include new content, new quests and a different way to do so. (maybe this could be an alternative way, because sabotage quests within betrayal quests are content too - and yes - it makes it easier to obtain 5k quests for achievement.

Aurumn

07-29-2010, 02:40 PM

I would not be in favor of removing betrayal entirely. I would, however, like to see the class change component operate independently of alignment change.Folks use betrayal not only to get a race/class combo, but because for whatever reason they have decided they would prefer to play the other version of a class. (ie. A guardian deciding change to berzerker). In those cases resetting of spells is logical, but change of alignment is not (and would increasingly be unnecessary with the class alignment changes). I would like to see the process simplified for those who are not interested in changing both class and alignment at the same time. Basically there should be 3 questlines related to "betrayal":<ul><li>Citizenship Transfer (simple movement between like-aligned cities)</li><li>Class Betrayal (change of class only)</li><li>Alignment Betrayal (movement between good and evil aligned cities - reasonable faction grind to prove loyalty/intentions, time in exile while transitioning)</li></ul>There should be some sort of a questline required for changing alignment as you are truly betraying your old way of life. However, the guardian in my example above just wants to fight differently... what does that have to do with his political leanings? As another example, maybe a guardian from Neriak, sick of everyone's gloomy demeanor and the stuffy caverns, decides to pick up and move to Kelethin to enjoy the view. Sure, this involves some political changes to their behavior (what flies in Neriak won't be tolerated in Kelthin I'm sure), but what does that have to do with their profession as long as their destination city admits their profession into the citizenry? Split the quests up as listed above. Allow class betrayal to be done simultaneously with either of the other two for those who want to multi-task.

seamus

07-29-2010, 02:48 PM

<cite>Chanson@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Derri@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The betrayal quests also facilitate switching between classes, and I don't think switching between classes should become trivial.</blockquote>My point is that most betrayals were so that people could be a unique race/class. You no longer need to make a high-elf templar and betray to freeport to be a high-elf inquisitor, you can start out as a high-elf inquisitor. So what's the point in having a betrayal quest? They can make changing cities open to all cities and make a different quest if you are just wanting to change your class (until they add the class change potions that is).</blockquote>This has been true for some time with the Race Change potion available on the market already.

Chanson

07-29-2010, 02:52 PM

<cite>Mezzmyrelda@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Basically there should be 3 questlines related to "betrayal":<ul><li>Citizenship Transfer (simple movement between like-aligned cities)</li><li>Class Betrayal (change of class only)</li><li>Alignment Betrayal (movement between good and evil aligned cities - reasonable faction grind to prove loyalty/intentions, time in exile while transitioning)</li></ul>There should be some sort of a questline required for changing alignment as you are truly betraying your old way of life. However, the guardian in my example above just wants to fight differently... what does that have to do with his political leanings? As another example, maybe a guardian from Neriak, sick of everyone's gloomy demeanor and the stuffy caverns, decides to pick up and move to Kelethin to enjoy the view. Sure, this involves some political changes to their behavior (what flies in Neriak won't be tolerated in Kelthin I'm sure), but what does that have to do with their profession as long as their destination city admits their profession into the citizenry? </blockquote>Excellent suggestion. Any devs reading this?

seamus

07-29-2010, 02:53 PM

I hope folks realize this change was made to accomodate EQ2X. In order to play good or evil races and classes you need to pay extra. This is why the change happened, to limit the number of races and classes requiring a fee. No other reason.

Seiffil

07-29-2010, 03:08 PM

<cite>Chanson@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mezzmyrelda@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Basically there should be 3 questlines related to "betrayal":<ul><li>Citizenship Transfer (simple movement between like-aligned cities)</li><li>Class Betrayal (change of class only)</li><li>Alignment Betrayal (movement between good and evil aligned cities - reasonable faction grind to prove loyalty/intentions, time in exile while transitioning)</li></ul>There should be some sort of a questline required for changing alignment as you are truly betraying your old way of life. However, the guardian in my example above just wants to fight differently... what does that have to do with his political leanings? As another example, maybe a guardian from Neriak, sick of everyone's gloomy demeanor and the stuffy caverns, decides to pick up and move to Kelethin to enjoy the view. Sure, this involves some political changes to their behavior (what flies in Neriak won't be tolerated in Kelthin I'm sure), but what does that have to do with their profession as long as their destination city admits their profession into the citizenry? </blockquote>Excellent suggestion. Any devs reading this?</blockquote>It's fine as it is, the current betrayal system already does this. The 8 neutral classes could start betrayal to get into exile and then return to their original city talking to the opposite trainer if they wanted to just change class without changing alignment. Those same classes could also change alignment since the opposing faction also had their class available too. There is no reason whatsoever to change the system. But they do need to keep the spell/CA loss when going through any betrayal process, as part of the sacrifice for going through the process.

Surculus

07-30-2010, 05:57 AM

What they need to do is leave it how it was.

BabyAngel

07-30-2010, 06:00 AM

None of you must play on a PVP server, exiling is very important part of game-play over there. The spell loss is an important price to pay for it. You betray your friends, switch sides and then you go out killing them.Its sad they made all these neutral classes

Surculus

07-30-2010, 06:09 AM

<cite>BabyAngel wrote:</cite><blockquote>None of you must play on a PVP server, exiling is very important part of game-play over there. The spell loss is an important price to pay for it. You betray your friends, switch sides and then you go out killing them.Its sad they made all these neutral classes</blockquote>Agreed 100%

Cusashorn

07-30-2010, 01:19 PM

So.... You want to remove the option for Conjurers, Swashbucklers, Paladins, Mystics, Brigands, Shadowknights, Necromancers, and Defilers to betray to the other class?Those classes are still good and evil, therefor, there is still a need for the betrayal quest. Besides, Betraying is just as much about changing cities as it is about changing classes.

ObsidianNightmare

07-30-2010, 01:25 PM

This change is a terrific example of how EQ2X is affecting the game negatively.

Xierce

07-30-2010, 01:38 PM

I just feel that the penalty for the betrayal makes no sense. If I am a berserker betraying Freeport to Qeynos... why would I suddenly forget how to head crush in a masterly way?

Cusashorn

07-30-2010, 02:27 PM

<cite>Xierce@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just feel that the penalty for the betrayal makes no sense. If I am a berserker betraying Freeport to Qeynos... why would I suddenly forget how to head crush in a masterly way?</blockquote>This has been discussed many many MANY times. There can be NO EXCEPTIONS for anyone. If classes who have to change classes have to start over, then classes who dont have to as well.

skidmark

07-30-2010, 03:42 PM

The betrayal quests became trivial when they put in the race change potion. The only need for it is if you are in a raid guild that needs the opposite class more than your current or if you get tired of your current and want to change. The entire betrayal is a nuissance and has no rp value whatsoever. It can easily be completed in a couple of hours start to finish. The worst part is repeating the same stupid quest over and over and going back to the quest giver and declining the other quests until you get the easy one. Its not punitive or something that makes you feel like you "earned" your place on the other team or "earned your new neutral class without changing cities, its merely another in an endless series of time-sinks. Time-sinks are fine, ones that are repetitive by doing the exact same thing over-and-over-and-over again are ridiculous and need to be done away with or revamped.

Xierce

07-30-2010, 05:21 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xierce@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just feel that the penalty for the betrayal makes no sense. If I am a berserker betraying Freeport to Qeynos... why would I suddenly forget how to head crush in a masterly way?</blockquote>This has been discussed many many MANY times. There can be NO EXCEPTIONS for anyone. If classes who have to change classes have to start over, then classes who dont have to as well.</blockquote>Cusashorn there's no need for you to limit any one's speach here this is the forum for this discussion and while your opinion seems valid to you it does not seem so valid to a lot of us. Therefore those of us who feel that the current betrayal system needs to be fixed need to speak up here and be counted.

Gungo

07-30-2010, 05:25 PM

+1 for the seperation of class betrayal and city betrayal.You should not loose spell quality betraying cities.You should loose spell quality on betraying classes.Every class should be available in each city.

Hirofortis

07-30-2010, 05:32 PM

Separating the two would be a good idea. Then maybe factions can be worth something again.As far as betraying to another class, If you want to betray and learn another class for your favorite toon , there should be a way. They can do it with tradeskills, they can do it with an adventure class. Not rocket science here. heck, it would be a great way to extend a toons life if they had the option to start over as a new adventure class. Granted you would have to level again, but that is not a prob.So in the end, betraying a city becomes a matter of faction.Betraying a class becomes a matter of resetting the adventurer back to the start. Not rocket science here.

Yimway

07-30-2010, 05:37 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>+1 for the seperation of class betrayal and city betrayal.You should not loose spell quality betraying cities.You should loose spell quality on betraying classes.Every class should be available in each city.</blockquote>I'm all for this change, though I'm not sure its the best use of resources, just cause I think there are more important items to address elsewhere over something like this that affects a pretty low population sample very infrequently.

Cusashorn

07-30-2010, 05:41 PM

<cite>Xierce@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xierce@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just feel that the penalty for the betrayal makes no sense. If I am a berserker betraying Freeport to Qeynos... why would I suddenly forget how to head crush in a masterly way?</blockquote>This has been discussed many many MANY times. There can be NO EXCEPTIONS for anyone. If classes who have to change classes have to start over, then classes who dont have to as well.</blockquote>Cusashorn there's no need for you to limit any one's speach here this is the forum for this discussion and while your opinion seems valid to you it does not seem so valid to a lot of us. Therefore those of us who feel that the current betrayal system needs to be fixed need to speak up here and be counted.</blockquote>This isn't just my opinion. It's what the developers themselves stated when they created the current betrayal system so many years back.

Gungo

07-30-2010, 05:42 PM

<cite>Hirofortis@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Separating the two would be a good idea. Then maybe factions can be worth something again.As far as betraying to another class, If you want to betray and learn another class for your favorite toon , there should be a way. They can do it with tradeskills, they can do it with an adventure class. Not rocket science here. heck, it would be a great way to extend a toons life if they had the option to start over as a new adventure class. Granted you would have to level again, but that is not a prob.So in the end, betraying a city becomes a matter of faction.Betraying a class becomes a matter of resetting the adventurer back to the start. Not rocket science here. </blockquote>I meant subclass not class sorry.Guardian to zerker should reset spell quality.Guardian moving from freeport to qeynos should NOT reset spell quality.