So EQ2X proves Guardian are the weakest tanks?

[Moralpanic]

<p>They're the only free class. So i'm under the assumption that if you're going to pay for your class, you're going to get a better class than the ones that are free? Otherwise, why would anybody pay for them?</p><p>I'm glad i have an SK that i play with instead.</p>

[Jonaroth]

<p>Zerkers are free too. Swashbucklers and Wizards are free too, does that make them them the worst DPS classes? Nope.</p><p>The day of the guardian is coming, crusaders are getting nerfed hardcore with the heal crit nerf, I'm gonna start power leveling my guardian ASAP.</p>

[rabid.pooh]

<p>I don't think there was any argument that guards are the weakest class atm.</p><p>What is EQ2X?</p>

[steelbadger]

<p><cite>Jonaroth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Zerkers are free too. Swashbucklers and Wizards are free too, does that make them them the worst DPS classes? Nope.</p><p>The day of the guardian is coming, crusaders are getting nerfed hardcore with the heal crit nerf, I'm gonna start power leveling my guardian ASAP.</p></blockquote><p>lol, do you really believe that?</p><p>You take less damage than Guards currently do even before your heals are factored in.</p>

[Kota]

heal nerf is going to hit zerks just as hard, maybe harder than crusaders tbh.

[Vlahkmaak]

<p><cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't think there was any argument that guards are the weakest class atm.</p><p>What is EQ2X?</p></blockquote><p>Guardians are not weak.  We need some tweaks here and there but SF has gone a long way to address alot of issues.  As a guardian I can room pull this x-pac and maintain decent aggro amongst several encounters - things that were VERY hard to do last x-pac without a coercer and a dirge a guardian can do this x-pac due to grp moderate. </p><p>While we lag behind the other plate tanks in DPS and raw aggro and lack of %based heals to make room pulling easier and zones go faster with the old  "AOE" classes a guardian can still put out decent numbers and get the job done.</p>

[Moralpanic]

<p>Room pulling was not something that interested me as a guardian, i have my SK for that. I just want a single target tank that is actually superior than the AOE tanks. Even with 1 charge on Bloodletter, and noncombat casting of it, it would still be better than Undying Will. </p><p>And i'll take:</p><p>Conviction - which does at least 20% of my SK dmg ZW by reflecting magic dmg, but reflecting 200% magic dmg! it's awesome seeing you take almost no dmg from that aoe while the mob gets hit double by it for 80k</p><p>Furor - the SKs version of Dragoons Reflex, except SKs can not only attack, but get 20% extra spell dmg and threat proc with every hit</p><p>Hateful Respite - their version of Block, except it only triggers on hits that does 25% hp or more, lasts 20s, blows up as an AE and AOE threat</p><p>Divine Aura - which as you know absorbs all hits that are 50% or less of hp</p><p>Crusaders Faith - every attack on the mob by the group heals the SK</p><p>Blood Siphon - self ward</p><p>Death March - 10% dmg reduction</p><p>Take out half of those abilities and SKs are still superior to guardians defensively. Guardians no longer have advantages such as higher mit, both my guards and SK are cap on that, as well as on block, parry, defense. The only thing my guardian has an advantage over my SK is about 1k hp, and when we're talking 34K VS 35K, that's negligible. But i'll take Death March over that 1k hp any day (10% dmg reduction is far better, although not as good as the stoneskin we had)</p><p>As for DPS, yes, my SK has spiked up to 80k, but ZW, my guardian does more usually. That could possibly be gear related though, since i've only started to gear up my SK.</p><p>I don't want to pull rooms, that's not what a single target tank should be doing. I don't care about DPS, if so i'll play a DPS class. And aggro has never been a problem, especially this expansion with Improved Moderation. Guardians aren't gimped, no tank class is this expansion, but out of the plate tanks, Guardians are by far the weakest. Guardians should have been all about survivability, but they gave that to the SK.</p><p>I have my SK to play, so i'm fortunate in that. But i feel for other guards, such as my OT, who i see struggling. I can tank Toxxulia without dying once, while my OT would have died a half dozen deaths in that time (and i die the same when i try to tank it with my guard). I don't want to see guards on easy-mode, i don't want to see ANY tanks on easy mode. But compared to other plate tanks, guards are far worst. I can't think of a single thing guardians have over any of the other tanks.</p><p>And that's not forgetting the mythical and the abilities from it. Again, guardians are by far the gimpest in this.</p>

[Moralpanic]

<p><cite>Jonaroth wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Zerkers are free too. Swashbucklers and Wizards are free too, does that make them them the worst DPS classes? Nope.</p><p>The day of the guardian is coming, crusaders are getting nerfed hardcore with the heal crit nerf, I'm gonna start power leveling my guardian ASAP.</p></blockquote><p>Says the Pally who is 'gonna start power leveling' his guardian because crusaders will be nerfed LOL. Who are you trying to kid?</p>

[rabid.pooh]

<p><cite>Moralpanic wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Take out half of those abilities and SKs are still superior to guardians defensively. Guardians no longer have advantages such as higher mit, both my guards and SK are cap on that, as well as on block, parry, defense. The only thing my guardian has an advantage over my SK is about 1k hp, and when we're talking 34K VS 35K, that's negligible. But i'll take Death March over that 1k hp any day (10% dmg reduction is far better, although not as good as the stoneskin we had)</p></blockquote><p>You know that physical mitigaiton is contested right?  13.5k'ish is the cap against a level 90 mob, versus a level 98 mob the cap is around 17k to 18k, no one is entirely sure on that number SOE won't tell us.  Our guild crusader who is pretty much geared like me floats between 15k to 15.5 in raid, I sit at 17k (I'll have more after a tank bp drops horrible luck..)  but then warirors have our temps which kick us up another 1k to 1.5k to hit the real cap.</p><p>With group moderate I never had problems room pulling on the guard (and even before that really), just get the aoe abilities the best you can get them.</p>

[rabid.pooh]

<p><cite>Vlahkmaak@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't think there was any argument that guards are the weakest class atm.</p><p>What is EQ2X?</p></blockquote><p>Guardians are not weak.  We need some tweaks here and there but SF has gone a long way to address alot of issues.  As a guardian I can room pull this x-pac and maintain decent aggro amongst several encounters - things that were VERY hard to do last x-pac without a coercer and a dirge a guardian can do this x-pac due to grp moderate. </p><p>While we lag behind the other plate tanks in DPS and raw aggro and lack of %based heals to make room pulling easier and zones go faster with the old  "AOE" classes a guardian can still put out decent numbers and get the job done.</p></blockquote><p>Guards are the weakest tank class right now, they just lack the survivability of the other classes, I believe theres an entire thread about started on the guard forums here by a dev?</p><p>The best thing about being a guard in this game right now is you can betray to a zerker, you will retain the same amount of mitigation and gain 50% damage reduction for half of whatever fight your on.  This may change in 6 to 8 weeks but I wouldn't hold your breath :p.</p>

[Gaffitis]

<p>I think Guardians def need some tweaks, less on the utility side and more on the survival side and DPS. Something more dependable then UW, and the changes to Sphere sound promising. AOE aggro will never be our strong suit but our single is rock solid. When we shift to defensive your group/raid needs to recognizes this and hopefully the devs will pump our DPS so that on raid mobs that have dps checks we are at least an option when building a raid force.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You know that physical mitigaiton is contested right?  13.5k'ish is the cap against a level 90 mob, versus a level 98 mob the cap is around 17k to 18k, no one is entirely sure on that number SOE won't tell us.  Our guild crusader who is pretty much geared like me floats between 15k to 15.5 in raid, I sit at 17k (I'll have more after a tank bp drops horrible luck..)  but then warirors have our temps which kick us up another 1k to 1.5k to hit the real cap.</p></blockquote><p>Parse incoming dps on the two of you and see what the differential is on damage with the 2k extra mit that far into the curve really is.</p><p>It's going to require a fairly large sample size to even show the difference btw.</p>

[Uskeab]

<p><cite> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>guardians are not as fun to play as other tanks, they dont have kewl fun tricks. therefore, even though they can do the same job as well as any other tank, all others should be nerfed, instead of handing out fluff.</blockquote><p>  what?</p>

[rabid.pooh]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You know that physical mitigaiton is contested right?  13.5k'ish is the cap against a level 90 mob, versus a level 98 mob the cap is around 17k to 18k, no one is entirely sure on that number SOE won't tell us.  Our guild crusader who is pretty much geared like me floats between 15k to 15.5 in raid, I sit at 17k (I'll have more after a tank bp drops horrible luck..)  but then warirors have our temps which kick us up another 1k to 1.5k to hit the real cap.</p></blockquote><p>Parse incoming dps on the two of you and see what the differential is on damage with the 2k extra mit that far into the curve really is.</p><p>It's going to require a fairly large sample size to even show the difference btw.</p></blockquote><p>It looks like physical mitigation is following the same curve arcane/elemental/noxious do, and we can all see the difference between a 15k resist and a 18.5k+ resist can make on the raid in a hard mode encounter.  So it is there.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You know that physical mitigaiton is contested right?  13.5k'ish is the cap against a level 90 mob, versus a level 98 mob the cap is around 17k to 18k, no one is entirely sure on that number SOE won't tell us.  Our guild crusader who is pretty much geared like me floats between 15k to 15.5 in raid, I sit at 17k (I'll have more after a tank bp drops horrible luck..)  but then warirors have our temps which kick us up another 1k to 1.5k to hit the real cap.</p></blockquote><p>Parse incoming dps on the two of you and see what the differential is on damage with the 2k extra mit that far into the curve really is.</p><p>It's going to require a fairly large sample size to even show the difference btw.</p></blockquote><p>It looks like physical mitigation is following the same curve arcane/elemental/noxious do, and we can all see the difference between a 15k resist and a 18.5k+ resist can make on the raid in a hard mode encounter.  So it is there.</p></blockquote><p>The problem is that mobs don't hit hard enough with melee....like they do with AEs.</p>

[Shredderr]

<p><cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vlahkmaak@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't think there was any argument that guards are the weakest class atm.</p><p>What is EQ2X?</p></blockquote><p>Guardians are not weak.  We need some tweaks here and there but SF has gone a long way to address alot of issues.  As a guardian I can room pull this x-pac and maintain decent aggro amongst several encounters - things that were VERY hard to do last x-pac without a coercer and a dirge a guardian can do this x-pac due to grp moderate. </p><p>While we lag behind the other plate tanks in DPS and raw aggro and lack of %based heals to make room pulling easier and zones go faster with the old  "AOE" classes a guardian can still put out decent numbers and get the job done.</p></blockquote><p>Guards are the weakest tank class right now, they just lack the survivability of the other classes, I believe theres an entire thread about started on the guard forums here by a dev?</p><p>The best thing about being a guard in this game right now is you can betray to a zerker, you will retain the same amount of mitigation and gain 50% damage reduction for half of whatever fight your on.  This may change in 6 to 8 weeks but I wouldn't hold your breath :p.</p></blockquote><p>You gotta be kidding me you can pull rooms and live let alone maintain aggro and you are weakest tanks ? no way Monks by far are the softest as well as no true  AE aggro abilities . I have seen guards who dont raid with 70% mit + and over 70% avoidance and your aggro abilities far out class Monks def not the worst tanks , you are just not an SK that is the real problem</p>

[rabid.pooh]

<p><cite>Shredderr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toesmash@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>snip</blockquote><p>You gotta be kidding me you can pull rooms and live let alone maintain aggro and you are weakest tanks ? no way Monks by far are the softest as well as no true  AE aggro abilities . I have seen guards who dont raid with 70% mit + and over 70% avoidance and your aggro abilities far out class Monks def not the worst tanks , you are just not an SK that is the real problem</p></blockquote><p>I can pull rooms with my monk, I could pull rooms when I was a guard.  Admitidely it was easier when I was guard but his gear level is way higher.  My monk would own the guard on the parse tho, I would just use the guard for raiding and run instances on my monk.</p><p>Brawlers are getting past 75% mitigation, and with immunity to strikethrough in raids, they are doing quite well.  Way more survivability in BG's.  Because the brawlers have long duration avoidance skills and a way to regain health I think they have more survivablity than a guard does, for instance I was running cella my healer died standing next to a rooted mob (druid degro roots the mobs), I popped tsunami for 15 seconds then used a signit and then popped bob and weave for another 12, a guard would go splat as the tos/lms would have been eaten up imediately.</p><p>I do think however brawlers are the hardest tank class to play efficently.</p>

[Jvaloth]

<p>I'd just like to be able to use a shield while tanking raid mobs and be able to keep agro.</p><p>I have to dual wield everything in offensive stance to even have a chance to keep agro.</p>