Not Amused [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Garnaf

07-28-2010, 09:28 AM

Only in a few cases can I see this actually being damaging to the Lore.First off, Good Assassins. As I recall, in EQ1 (hey, we're using lore, EQ1 counts!) even "good" Rogues still had access to their Assassinate instakill ability. (Halflings!) And certainly one can be an assassin for the greater good. A tyrant who has legitimate claim to the throne may be a legal ruler, but as a tyrant he's evil, his death is a good act.Evil Rangers, ok this is a LOT harder to reconsile with the lore. Rangers are the champions of Tunare and Karana, both of which are Good (or at least Neutral with no desire to be evil). The BEST I can come up with is a scenario similar to the short story The Most Dangerous Game.Evil Templars / Good Inquisitors, Ok THIS has me drawing a blank, sorry, this one makes no sense to me, these classes draw their powers from their ideology. A templar exists to protect and heal, while an inquisitor exists to force people to convert to their faith. An evil templar is believable (same vein as an evil guardian), a Good Inquis? not so much.Evil Illusionists, I can actually see this, an illusionist uses images to confuse their enemies, and certainly an illusion can be malevolent (those hidden pits in Charasis anyone?)Good Coercers, again a hard one to tackle, a coercer warps the mind of their enemy, and such an action takes away freedom (an always evil act). I'm sure an argument can be made somewhere, but I can't think of one.Evil Monks. Monks have always sought inner tranquility and peace, an evil monk is perplexing, but I can think of it as peace through balance, the concept in Ying and Yang. All things in balance, with their inner peace they must bring outer chaos.Good Bruisers. Actually not so unbelievable. Bruisers emphasize power over grace and peace, the strong survive. You may not be an altruist, and won't fight someone's battles for them, but you'll stand up against odds that are unfair and don't allow for personal growth. (Survival of the Fittest applies a lot less in a 10 to 1 fight afterall. Then it's survival of superior firepower.)

ShadowMunkie

07-28-2010, 09:51 AM

<cite>Dranikos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Only in a few cases can I see this actually being damaging to the Lore.First off, Good Assassins. As I recall, in EQ1 (hey, we're using lore, EQ1 counts!) even "good" Rogues still had access to their Assassinate instakill ability. (Halflings!) And certainly one can be an assassin for the greater good. A tyrant who has legitimate claim to the throne may be a legal ruler, but as a tyrant he's evil, his death is a good act.Evil Rangers, ok this is a LOT harder to reconsile with the lore. Rangers are the champions of Tunare and Karana, both of which are Good (or at least Neutral with no desire to be evil). The BEST I can come up with is a scenario similar to the short story The Most Dangerous Game.Evil Templars / Good Inquisitors, Ok THIS has me drawing a blank, sorry, this one makes no sense to me, these classes draw their powers from their ideology. A templar exists to protect and heal, while an inquisitor exists to force people to convert to their faith. An evil templar is believable (same vein as an evil guardian), a Good Inquis? not so much.Evil Illusionists, I can actually see this, an illusionist uses images to confuse their enemies, and certainly an illusion can be malevolent (those hidden pits in Charasis anyone?)Good Coercers, again a hard one to tackle, a coercer warps the mind of their enemy, and such an action takes away freedom (an always evil act). I'm sure an argument can be made somewhere, but I can't think of one.Evil Monks. Monks have always sought inner tranquility and peace, an evil monk is perplexing, but I can think of it as peace through balance, the concept in Ying and Yang. All things in balance, with their inner peace they must bring outer chaos.Good Bruisers. Actually not so unbelievable. Bruisers emphasize power over grace and peace, the strong survive. You may not be an altruist, and won't fight someone's battles for them, but you'll stand up against odds that are unfair and don't allow for personal growth. (Survival of the Fittest applies a lot less in a 10 to 1 fight afterall. Then it's survival of superior firepower.)</blockquote>Why does one have to change their learnings and magical ways just to "fit" in with a new city? I think this change is more about allowing freedom rather than to mess lore up.Who says the Queen won't need a coercer to warp the minds of her enemies to obtain information?Who says a Templar can not heal and protect Luclin?So many people are blowing this out of propotion. Truly sit back and think about it, read all your fancy lore, read whatever you like. Sit back and then ask yourself one question. WHY NOT?As far an evil ranger, just think Poacher as someone stated in the Test Forums. Clearly they have poachers in Oakmyst Forest, oh wait thats LORE isn't it. /boggles mind at the LOREmasters.

Barx

07-28-2010, 10:02 AM

Rather than make things neutral, they should have just done what so many folks have been asking: separate class betrayal from citizenship/alignment change. Then an assassin would start evil for example, but then be able to convert to put their skills to a "good" use rather than just putting them to good use <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.With that said, I don't see this being really bad for the lore -- first and foremost because you as the player character mean nothing in the lore. The only city where it doesn't really fit well is Kelethin, where you start out in the nursery. New Halas you're basically a shipwreck, so why can't you have been an evil guy on a ship that got wrecked? Neriak you start in Hate's Envy, no real reason why you're there so why can't you be a good class trying to save the city from it's evil ways? The same goes for Gorowyn.In a world of gray, dividing classes into black and white isn't really necessary.

Garnaf

07-28-2010, 10:08 AM

Keep in mind you're now arguing with the person who said more of these were believable than not, which isn't helping your case. That said, I could not see Qeynos using coercers in the method you mentioned because it is totally against their ideology. A coercer litterally guts someone of their free will and uses them like a puppet. Find me a way to reconsile that with "good" (keeping in mind EVERY one of the slaver cultures in EQ lore is Evil beyond any doubts.)The ONLY ones that strain my ability to believe are the aforementioned Good Coercer, a Good Inquisitor (for the same reasons, forced conversion to another deity is NOT a good aligned act, it's an infringement on free will), and Evil Ranger (Tunare and Karana's champions). I can believe an Evil ranger existing, but a GOOD Coercer or Inquisitor? I'd be more inclined to believe a Good Necromancer exists before a Good member of either of those classes. Oh wait, there IS a good Necromancer (or at least a Neutral one that is not outright malevolent or evil) DARTAIN!And to the above. for Neriak and Gorowyn you're in the starting areas because the Military of those cities drafted you and stationed you there, thus why your first quest is always to report to your superior officer (implied, if not outright stated). For New Halas? You survived the ship wreck via the hand of Marr (at least that's what's implied). Mithaniel is NOT going to escort someone obviously evil into a city he established as a haven in memory of his sister.

ShadowMunkie

07-28-2010, 10:19 AM

<cite>Dranikos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Keep in mind you're now arguing with the person who said more of these were believable than not, which isn't helping your case. That said, I could not see Qeynos using coercers in the method you mentioned because it is totally against their ideology. A coercer litterally guts someone of their free will and uses them like a puppet. Find me a way to reconsile that with "good" (keeping in mind EVERY one of the slaver cultures in EQ lore is Evil beyond any doubts.)The ONLY ones that strain my ability to believe are the aforementioned Good Coercer, a Good Inquisitor (for the same reasons, forced conversion to another deity is NOT a good aligned act, it's an infringement on free will), and Evil Ranger (Tunare and Karana's champions). I can believe an Evil ranger existing, but a GOOD Coercer or Inquisitor? I'd be more inclined to believe a Good Necromancer exists before a Good member of either of those classes. Oh wait, there IS a good Necromancer (or at least a Neutral one that is not outright malevolent or evil) DARTAIN!And to the above. for Neriak and Gorowyn you're in the starting areas because the Military of those cities drafted you and stationed you there, thus why your first quest is always to report to your superior officer (implied, if not outright stated). For New Halas? You survived the ship wreck via the hand of Marr (at least that's what's implied). Mithaniel is NOT going to escort someone obviously evil into a city he established as a haven in memory of his sister.</blockquote>I commented on yours because it was case in point not because I wanted to argue with you. As for your "Good Coercer/Inquisitor" and the queen not needing "Coercers".To me, Coercer's powers work like interegators. They use whatever tatics they have to to gather information. A Coercer Bends their enemies minds to either gain information(neutrual) or other reasons(evil). This is how I would interpert the "Good Coercer" as being an interegator for the queen.As for your Inquisitor being "Good", I don't really see them "forcing" people to join their faith. I picture them more of a "preacher" for cults/religions. Manipulating what people think in order to make them join their faith.Evil can't love? Just saying.

kelvmor

07-28-2010, 01:50 PM

So, uh. How do we know that they're actually going to add this to the live servers?On a related note, Bruisers should be a neutral class. Dwarves, for instance, do not fit the monk idealogy; they don't do the whole peace and tranquility thing. They prefer to outbrawn their opponents whenever possible; if they didn't have an axe or hammer or sword or such, they'd probably fight with a bruiser style. Besides, guess what we can make in Qeynos, now? Dwarf battleragers! Shove some all-class plate armor on that sucker, and you've got yourself a battlerager.

Cusashorn

07-28-2010, 02:38 PM

^ Because almost nothing that gets protested on the Test Server is ever actually changed to what we the players want. Dwarves shouldn't even be practicing martial arts to begin with. Some races just shouldn't be certain classes period because of thier racial cultures.They're making these changes because the Free To Play servers are going to have limited classes and races that players can play as. Those 8 classes are the remaining Good and Evil classes after this change.This is still a terrible thing to do.If anything, it actually makes more sense to allow all races to live in all cities, and let the game know that the player chooses to be good or evil by birthright, and are restricted by class. If an evil race doesn't want to be evil, then I don't think that they should have to betray a city that they have contributed nothing to. A Dark Elf shouldn't have to betray Neriak just because they were born there. Let them go to another city, tell them that they want to help them out instead, and then let that character start in that city as if they had just finished the betrayal process without having actually done it in game.There should never be evil monks. There have been individual cases in the past of evil monks who ended up being destroyed because they became power hungry. Namely, Xenovorash, who worshipped Rallos Zek. The Ashen Fists willingly left Freeport because they would not bow down to Lucan's rule. Those who stayed behind would form the Dreadnaughts, the leading faction of bruisers found in this game. Now, one could argue that the Swifttails in EQlive were evil monks because they were shoehorned due to mechanics. On the surface, they believed that inflicting pain was the best way to become stronger. This would place them squarely into Bruiser territory in this game, but then we find out that more powerful swiftails over the years would eventually find inner peace through thier teachings, and learn that not everyone else is an enemy. Learn to think before making an action, learn to respect others. Now in EQ2, we find the Swifttails take a rather neutral stance of Venril Sathir's rule, and we see them practicing dilligently to achieve inner peace.. Inflicting pain is no longer their method of teaching. Yeah, there are the Broken Shackles in Sebilis who fully embrace Venril's rule, but I find it hard to believe that they would call themselves monks.There should never be Good Coercers or Good Inquisitors. Queen Antonia would never find a use for them. She still acknowledges her enemies as living people. She could have just as easily said "Screw Freeport. Lets help the citizens burn it to the ground faster" but she decided that they're still people who need help and made the decision to bring Lucan back and let him take control of the city once again.There should not be good assassins. In the test thread, people claimed James Bond to be a good assassin. He's a spy who kills people if he has to - much like most of the quests in this game require you to kill stuff because you have to. He's not a professional hitman who makes a living off of specifically killing political figures. Evil Assassins enjoy killing others. They kill for fun and profit. Good Assassins as most, would only kill for profit, but probably wouldn't take delite in doing it. Even then, would there really be so many evil political figures who need to be killed to make the assassin a COMMON profession to see in a city? Normally for professional hitmen, there may be a select few people who have proven themselves good enough to accomplish any job.There shouldn't be good Bruisers, because to me, a bruiser is a martial artist who chooses to destroy and inflict pain. If a bruiser were to try to do this for the sake of the greater good, then I would think this is a conflict of morals. Like the bruiser wants to help people, but can never teach himself that it's hard to help others if you constantly hurt people. A bruiser who learns self control is leading themselves on the path to becoming a disciplined monkI admit there are some classes who really only got shoehorned into being good or evil because the other was capable of being more evil than the other.Illusionists.. I've always thought that a person who specializes in visual illusions shouldn't be restricted to being good. In fact, if I remember correctly, there's a dark elf in Butcherblock who says that she is an illusionist. Coercers are decisively evil, but Illusionists would be neutral at best. I can see good illusionists, evil illusionists, and evil coercers, but never good coercers.Conjurers. Conjurers are the Magician Class from EQlive. There were good and evil magicians, but Conjurers are only good because Necromancers are by far much more evil.Templars: I'm not quite sure on this one. Templars are the closest of the two classes to being the original Cleric class, and there were good and evil clerics, but I'm just not sure how there could be evil Templars.Rangers: I'm really not even sure what to think of the concept of evil rangers. I don't know if they should specifically be good or not.

Trevalon

07-28-2010, 02:49 PM

I mean its obvious they are just trying to streamline the whole character creation process to not be so complicated.I have a friend who recently started playing EQ2 for the first time and one of his first criticism's was that he couldn't start with us in Halas if he wanted to be an Inquistor - in fact he ended up being a Templar just because he didnt know how to get to Halas and to the starter area if he made an Inquistor. He ended up disliking the Templar (for how slow combat was solo - where he would have liked the Inq imo) and he has now quit the game. He liked the game and hated the class so instead of starting over he just said screw it and went back to his old MMO.Sony is trying to get rid of that kind of scenario. They just lost a sub who liked the game because of a convoluted old school train of thought.Personally I think they should just make every class neutral and make them be able to start anywhere. Who really cares about the whole Good vs. Evil thing because they haven't used that plot device since...forever.

Stubbswick

07-28-2010, 03:07 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>They're making these changes because the Free To Play servers are going to have limited classes and races that players can play as. Those 8 classes are the remaining Good and Evil classes after this change.</blockquote>I thought this may be the case - but according to the current FAQ (which may or may not change before this all goes Live), the current 8 classes are Swash/Brig, Wiz/Warlock, Guard/Zerker, and Templar/Inquis.So why leave Swash/Brig as the only choose-a-side classes for the Free-To-Play folks?In any event, I think you can make arguments about certain classes and their alignment. Inquisitors for example are simply fanatics of their faith. They seek to convert or kill anyone who doesn't believe in their faith. Yeah, that's generally not a "good" thing, but throughout history you see religious fanatics who may be considered "good" to their kingdom/country/etc.

Cusashorn

07-28-2010, 04:08 PM

The thing that really bothers me the most about this whole thing is: They're going to make these changes without explaining them.I really wouldn't mind if there are suddenly evil monks and good assassins if they were to add in-game dialogue and questlines to properly explain why you have chosen that profession for that alignment. All the race/class combos in EQlive all had their own newbie questlines that resulted in weapons and armors, and properly explained why that faction exists.In EQ2, all the classes have enough lore to properly explain why they are either good or evil- most of it being a major factor to those classes in fact. If they're going to just allow players to be certain classes who for the past 5 years have been restricted to one alignment or the other, then they need to properly explain with proper lore why these professions are now allowed to exist on the other side.But when they just make these changes and pass it off as nothing more than another mechanic, then it upsets me.

glowsintheda

07-28-2010, 04:32 PM

The Tallonites from the vigilant instances would definatly be considered evil rangers. As far as Good Inquisitors, any religion can have fanatics that go out and try to convert people, don't see why they should be limited. Honestly, lore wise the only 3 classes that I see really having to be good or evil are Paladins, Shadowknights, and Defilers. Pallys and SKs for obvious reasons, and defilers, well lets face it, pressing the souls of the deceased into service isn't exactly a good act. And no, its not hipocryitical to say that nercos could be good because all necromancy really is is using the power of lifeforce as released by death, and while death isn't all smiles and roses, its not exactly evil either

Cusashorn

07-28-2010, 04:37 PM

<cite>glowsinthedark wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Tallonites from the vigilant instances would definatly be considered evil rangers. As far as Good Inquisitors, any religion can have fanatics that go out and try to convert people, don't see why they should be limited. Honestly, lore wise the only 3 classes that I see really having to be good or evil are Paladins, Shadowknights, and Defilers. Pallys and SKs for obvious reasons, and defilers, well lets face it, pressing the souls of the deceased into service isn't exactly a good act. And no, its not hipocryitical to say that nercos could be good because all necromancy really is is using the power of lifeforce as released by death, and while death isn't all smiles and roses, its not exactly evil either</blockquote>Yeah but most necromancers choose to embrace their malevolent magics and reflect it on others. The only reason the erudites no longer think of Necromancy as evil is because they've put aside their differences and learned to accept it as a scientific study. The rest of the world is not so open about that.

Gungo

07-28-2010, 05:12 PM

<cite>Ayianna@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree. Monks are about peace and tranquility, and bruisers are full out devastation and chaos.They should NOT be neutral.</blockquote>Then you have never paid attention to brawler lore. Bruiser are dreadnauts. They are bar fighters. They are street fighters. None of those classification is evil or good. Monks on the other hand are masters of martial arts and the fact that Monks were considered a good class was a huge slap in the face to lore in eq2.Iksar were always considered an evil race one of thier most infuencial castes were the swifttail monks. < EVILHonestly spend at least 1 moment in eq2 and go to the isle of mara in the lowest level of the tower sit several factions of monks some evil and some good ALL with different philosphy on being a monk. Do some quests in pillars of flame in the monk section and learn about the 2 monk castes there each of them in conflict with each other and with completely opposite views. Monks are not always about peace and tranquility. That is but 1 faction of monks which is qeynos based and follows the teachings of Master Wu who is the Avatar of Tranquility.

Xalmat

07-28-2010, 05:35 PM

Honestly, at this point you might as well make every class neutral.-Swashbucklers vs Brigands. Arguably Brigands are ruthless thugs, but Swashbucklers are outlaws all the same.-Conjuror vs Necromancer. Dartain, and really the whole city of Paineel, has taught us that Necromancy isn't such a bad thing after all. And really, a Conjuror made no sense being good only to begin with. We even have Najena, who is arguably a chaotic neutral Conjuror.-Shadowknight vs Paladin. This one's a bit of a stretch no matter how you look at it, to be honest. Paladins are rarely evil (Lucan D'Lere being a prime example), while Shadowknights are rarely good (I can't recall anyone off the top of my head that fits the category).-Mystic vs Defiler. To me a Defiler is basically a healer version of a Warlock, and Warlocks were neutral from day one. And a Mystic is basically a shaman version of a Templar, right? So if Templars get to be neutral, why aren't Mystics?

Cusashorn

07-28-2010, 05:52 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ayianna@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree. Monks are about peace and tranquility, and bruisers are full out devastation and chaos.They should NOT be neutral.</blockquote>Then you have never paid attention to brawler lore. Bruiser are dreadnauts. They are bar fighters. They are street fighters. None of those classification is evil or good. Monks on the other hand are masters of martial arts and the fact that Monks were considered a good class was a huge slap in the face to lore in eq2.Iksar were always considered an evil race one of thier most infuencial castes were the swifttail monks. < EVILHonestly spend at least 1 moment in eq2 and go to the isle of mara in the lowest level of the tower sit several factions of monks some evil and some good ALL with different philosphy on being a monk. Do some quests in pillars of flame in the monk section and learn about the 2 monk castes there each of them in conflict with each other and with completely opposite views. Monks are not always about peace and tranquility. That is but 1 faction of monks which is qeynos based and follows the teachings of Master Wu who is the Avatar of Tranquility.</blockquote>As I mentioned above, the Ashen Order in the Pillars of Flames used to live in Freeport, but chose to move out instead of bow down to Lucan's Rule. The Ashen Order is now split between the Order and the Disciples. The Order stays true to their teachings of following Quellious and and the Avatar of Tranquility. The Disciples shrug off the order's teachings and choose to just focus on physical enhancement. They've essentially become bruisers by doing this.Master Wu is the Demi-God of Enlightenment, not the Avatar of Tranquility. Yes, I know the Quellious avatar encounter had you fighting him.The Ashen Order, Silent Fist, the monks at the Encampment of Wu, and yes, the Swifttails, all follow or acknowledge the teachings of Master Wu. The Swifttails have changed their ways since EQlive, and even back then, when they embraced the idea of inflicting pain and fear to become stronger, this eventually lead some of them to inner peace and enlightenment. The Swifttails now take a more neutral stance in terms that they don't openly accept Venril Sathir's rule, but don't defy it either. They've also changed their ways so they don't focus specifically on physical training.As I said earlier, if there is an Evil Monk faction out there, it would be the Broken Shackle Clan inside Sebilis, who follow Venril Sathir.. However, like I've also been saying, there really isn't any explanation or lore that claims that they are monks, or just bruisers.

Beef_Supre

07-28-2010, 05:57 PM

Yeah, I don't get it either..Mystics can't be evil, and say follow Rallos Zek. But Templars can? Where's the line that got drawn there? If we're saying that a Priest is a Priest is a Priest.. like Druids always were, then why do Shaman - the Tribal version of the Priests - get limited to good or evil?Even more baffling is the fact Assassins can be good now, but Brigands can't? Um, Brigands are a lesser baddie.. they are just after the money, I could see a neutral or even good version of this. Assassins KILL for a living.. uh.. hmm. This somehow reminds me of parents letting their kids watch brutal violence but not sex in a movie. I don't get it, the priorities are out of whack.Mainly, I'm kind of happy to see some new options, but just don't understand how or why they drew the line. I have always seen a lot of the Evil classes as more 'greedy' than evil, or just rough around the edges. A dark hooded stalker type can certainly apply to the evil Ranger, and a Bouncer working outside a Qeynos pub could be a Bruiser.. but then why can Swashbucklers not be cruel swordsman/pirates or Mystics not be brutal tribal warmongers? There's just no rhyme or reason.Lore needs rhyme or reason, and it needs consistency. Oh well, I'll roll with it.. my Guild has wanted a Ranger in Freeport anyway.

Gungo

07-28-2010, 07:31 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ayianna@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree. Monks are about peace and tranquility, and bruisers are full out devastation and chaos.They should NOT be neutral.</blockquote>Then you have never paid attention to brawler lore. Bruiser are dreadnauts. They are bar fighters. They are street fighters. None of those classification is evil or good. Monks on the other hand are masters of martial arts and the fact that Monks were considered a good class was a huge slap in the face to lore in eq2.Iksar were always considered an evil race one of thier most infuencial castes were the swifttail monks. < EVILHonestly spend at least 1 moment in eq2 and go to the isle of mara in the lowest level of the tower sit several factions of monks some evil and some good ALL with different philosphy on being a monk. Do some quests in pillars of flame in the monk section and learn about the 2 monk castes there each of them in conflict with each other and with completely opposite views. Monks are not always about peace and tranquility. That is but 1 faction of monks which is qeynos based and follows the teachings of Master Wu who is the Avatar of Tranquility.</blockquote>As I mentioned above, the Ashen Order in the Pillars of Flames used to live in Freeport, but chose to move out instead of bow down to Lucan's Rule. The Ashen Order is now split between the Order and the Disciples. The Order stays true to their teachings of following Quellious and and the Avatar of Tranquility. The Disciples shrug off the order's teachings and choose to just focus on physical enhancement. They've essentially become bruisers by doing this.Master Wu is the Demi-God of Enlightenment, not the Avatar of Tranquility. Yes, I know the Quellious avatar encounter had you fighting him.The Ashen Order, Silent Fist, the monks at the Encampment of Wu, and yes, the Swifttails, all follow or acknowledge the teachings of Master Wu. The Swifttails have changed their ways since EQlive, and even back then, when they embraced the idea of inflicting pain and fear to become stronger, this eventually lead some of them to inner peace and enlightenment. The Swifttails now take a more neutral stance in terms that they don't openly accept Venril Sathir's rule, but don't defy it either. They've also changed their ways so they don't focus specifically on physical training.As I said earlier, if there is an Evil Monk faction out there, it would be the Broken Shackle Clan inside Sebilis, who follow Venril Sathir.. However, like I've also been saying, there really isn't any explanation or lore that claims that they are monks, or just bruisers.</blockquote>Master wu has been refered as the avatar of tranquility several times in EQ2 lore. If in eq1 he is refered to the demi god of enlightenment that is NOT canon to eq2 lore. Regardless of how you spin lore to fit your need the disciples are MONKS, they have monk buffs. The swifttail monks still worship cazic thule and thus are evil, I honestly do not know where you pull out your lore about them following master wu. The broken shackle clan was outside sebilis where you had to do the shackle quest series. They are not even true followers of venril and are at odds with him. Honestly you are just making lore up at this point and have no idea what you are talking about.

kelvmor

07-28-2010, 08:34 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>^ Because almost nothing that gets protested on the Test Server is ever actually changed to what we the players want. Dwarves shouldn't even be practicing martial arts to begin with. Some races just shouldn't be certain classes period because of thier racial cultures.They're making these changes because the Free To Play servers are going to have limited classes and races that players can play as. Those 8 classes are the remaining Good and Evil classes after this change.This is still a terrible thing to do.If anything, it actually makes more sense to allow all races to live in all cities, and let the game know that the player chooses to be good or evil by birthright, and are restricted by class. If an evil race doesn't want to be evil, then I don't think that they should have to betray a city that they have contributed nothing to. A Dark Elf shouldn't have to betray Neriak just because they were born there. Let them go to another city, tell them that they want to help them out instead, and then let that character start in that city as if they had just finished the betrayal process without having actually done it in game.There should never be evil monks. There have been individual cases in the past of evil monks who ended up being destroyed because they became power hungry. Namely, Xenovorash, who worshipped Rallos Zek. The Ashen Fists willingly left Freeport because they would not bow down to Lucan's rule. Those who stayed behind would form the Dreadnaughts, the leading faction of bruisers found in this game. Now, one could argue that the Swifttails in EQlive were evil monks because they were shoehorned due to mechanics. On the surface, they believed that inflicting pain was the best way to become stronger. This would place them squarely into Bruiser territory in this game, but then we find out that more powerful swiftails over the years would eventually find inner peace through thier teachings, and learn that not everyone else is an enemy. Learn to think before making an action, learn to respect others. Now in EQ2, we find the Swifttails take a rather neutral stance of Venril Sathir's rule, and we see them practicing dilligently to achieve inner peace.. Inflicting pain is no longer their method of teaching. Yeah, there are the Broken Shackles in Sebilis who fully embrace Venril's rule, but I find it hard to believe that they would call themselves monks.There should never be Good Coercers or Good Inquisitors. Queen Antonia would never find a use for them. She still acknowledges her enemies as living people. She could have just as easily said "Screw Freeport. Lets help the citizens burn it to the ground faster" but she decided that they're still people who need help and made the decision to bring Lucan back and let him take control of the city once again.There should not be good assassins. In the test thread, people claimed James Bond to be a good assassin. He's a spy who kills people if he has to - much like most of the quests in this game require you to kill stuff because you have to. He's not a professional hitman who makes a living off of specifically killing political figures. Evil Assassins enjoy killing others. They kill for fun and profit. Good Assassins as most, would only kill for profit, but probably wouldn't take delite in doing it. Even then, would there really be so many evil political figures who need to be killed to make the assassin a COMMON profession to see in a city? Normally for professional hitmen, there may be a select few people who have proven themselves good enough to accomplish any job.There shouldn't be good Bruisers, because to me, a bruiser is a martial artist who chooses to destroy and inflict pain. If a bruiser were to try to do this for the sake of the greater good, then I would think this is a conflict of morals. Like the bruiser wants to help people, but can never teach himself that it's hard to help others if you constantly hurt people. A bruiser who learns self control is leading themselves on the path to becoming a disciplined monkI admit there are some classes who really only got shoehorned into being good or evil because the other was capable of being more evil than the other.Illusionists.. I've always thought that a person who specializes in visual illusions shouldn't be restricted to being good. In fact, if I remember correctly, there's a dark elf in Butcherblock who says that she is an illusionist. Coercers are decisively evil, but Illusionists would be neutral at best. I can see good illusionists, evil illusionists, and evil coercers, but never good coercers.Conjurers. Conjurers are the Magician Class from EQlive. There were good and evil magicians, but Conjurers are only good because Necromancers are by far much more evil.Templars: I'm not quite sure on this one. Templars are the closest of the two classes to being the original Cleric class, and there were good and evil clerics, but I'm just not sure how there could be evil Templars.Rangers: I'm really not even sure what to think of the concept of evil rangers. I don't know if they should specifically be good or not.</blockquote>There's actually a legitimate lore reason as to why Dwarves can be monks. Back in the Age of War, I think, a dwarf named Tongar Sledgefist happened upon a travelling monk. They befriended each other, and the monk trained Tongar. After putting a dwarven spin on the style, he returned to Kaladim, and founded the Order of Hammering Fists, which was soon added to the Stormguard after younger dwarves started to defect to the Order. When I imagine the style they used, I think of the Bruiser style, a slugger sort of style.Evil monks: Cazic-Thule-worshipping Iksar monks. 'Nough said.As for good Assassins: Think of the Assassin's Creed series. Altair, Ezio de Auditore de Firenze... That sort of assassin. Killers that kill for the greater good. They just use stealth, poison, and shady tactics to accomplish their goals.I don't like the idea of evil rangers, though. Opens the door to make too many Drizzt-characters. As for Templars and Inquisitors, I'm all for them becoming neutral. Same for Illusionists. Not so much for Coercers, unless they're portrayed in Qeynos as psychics.

Zabjade

07-28-2010, 10:01 PM

The only way I can see a Dark-Monk would be if as a form of Balance (Perhaps they follow the Nameless or the Tribunal) is Perhaps too much GOOD has been happening in a region and the people will become complacent, a Dark-Monk would be needed to slip in and "balance" the issue.But that's more philosophical, Developers it would help if there is an emerging need (lore-wise) for the change!!!

Sleap

07-28-2010, 10:25 PM

Just my 2 cents.... When i create new characters now-a-days, i want them to be unique. Like an Ogre monk, or a dark elf Conjuror. Making classes that are now currently good/evil to making them nuetral will defeat the purpose of having a "unique" character. For those that are either too lazy to betray, or dont know the process it will make it easier for them to have a unique character, but if this change goes through there will be no such thing as a "unique" character. Its like taking away ppl's names and just giving them a number.

Meirril

07-28-2010, 11:06 PM

<cite>kelvmor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't like the idea of evil rangers, though. Opens the door to make too many Drizzt-characters. As for Templars and Inquisitors, I'm all for them becoming neutral. Same for Illusionists. Not so much for Coercers, unless they're portrayed in Qeynos as psychics.</blockquote>Funny thing. Tallon Zek would make the perfect diety for an evil ranger. There isn't any other diety out there that specializes in ranged combat.Also it is very easy to imagine that the Deathfist Orcs of Zek have learned everything they could possibly want to about rangers. The main headquarters of druids is located in Darklight Woods. Druids and Rangers have had a long association in EQ1. (arguably druids should of been the "good" priest. Druids were restricted to good races only in EQ1, while evil clerics and shamman were everywhere.) With the main hall of druids being located in DLW it would only be natural for young tier'dal to find rangers capable of training them in their ways. The rangers might even use thier training as a way to influence a younger generation to question the way in which their society works.Strange question: are Jedi evil? Jedi use a form of mind control. While it isn't exactly charm it is altering another person's mind for their own benifit. And while the queen herself might object to this form of magic, that doesn't mean that some of her followers wouldn't persue it if allowed. Sure, they live on a morally slippery slope, but no more so than a Bezerker who could loose self control and kill their closest companions and loved ones in a moment of uncontrolled passion.Inquisitors are zelots. As such, they never question their own motives. An Inquisitor serving Mithanial Marr would see himself as a champion of good, rooting out evil no matter where it will hide. He would be willing to cleanse the land of the taint of evil, with his sermons, with hot irons, and with his own two bloodstained hands if it comes to that. Certainly many of his fellow worshipers would call his methods into question, but never his faith.

Triasa

07-28-2010, 11:25 PM

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote>Funny thing. Tallon Zek would make the perfect diety for an evil ranger. There isn't any other diety out there that specializes in ranged combat.Also it is very easy to imagine that the Deathfist Orcs of Zek have learned everything they could possibly want to about rangers. The main headquarters of druids is located in Darklight Woods. Druids and Rangers have had a long association in EQ1. (arguably druids should of been the "good" priest. Druids were restricted to good races only in EQ1, while evil clerics and shamman were everywhere.) With the main hall of druids being located in DLW it would only be natural for young tier'dal to find rangers capable of training them in their ways. The rangers might even use thier training as a way to influence a younger generation to question the way in which their society works.<snip>Inquisitors are zelots. As such, they never question their own motives. An Inquisitor serving Mithanial Marr would see himself as a champion of good, rooting out evil no matter where it will hide. He would be willing to cleanse the land of the taint of evil, with his sermons, with hot irons, and with his own two bloodstained hands if it comes to that. Certainly many of his fellow worshipers would call his methods into question, but never his faith.</blockquote>This is probably the best reasoning I've seen. Good post.

Dreadpatch

07-28-2010, 11:32 PM

Good coercers and assassins are just laughable.... Between F2P and this BS all I have is one movie quote "Game over man"

Cusashorn

07-29-2010, 12:21 AM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Master wu has been refered as the avatar of tranquility several times in EQ2 lore. If in eq1 he is refered to the demi god of enlightenment that is NOT canon to eq2 lore. Regardless of how you spin lore to fit your need the disciples are MONKS, they have monk buffs. The swifttail monks still worship cazic thule and thus are evil, I honestly do not know where you pull out your lore about them following master wu. The broken shackle clan was outside sebilis where you had to do the shackle quest series. They are not even true followers of venril and are at odds with him. Honestly you are just making lore up at this point and have no idea what you are talking about. </blockquote><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/Cusashorn/HandofSerenity.png" width="609" height="867" /><img src="http://i28.tinypic.com/2uelfds.jpg" /><a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/faction.html?eq2faction=222" target="_blank">"The Swifttail Caste of monks survived the fall of Cabilis and have relocated their temple training ground to Kunzar Jungle."</a><a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/mob.html?eq2mob=b3d99d5750af8cee5560ac12764eb04a" target="_blank">"a Broken Shackle initiate"</a><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Trial_of_Tynnonium" target="_blank">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Trial_of_Tynnonium</a>Gungo, you and I both need to realize that neither one of us is perfect. I know my Monk lore, and have been corrected quite a few times for other things, but you're not perfect either.

Zabjade

07-29-2010, 02:32 AM

The fact that my Dark Elf Monk (who I went through the ORIGINAL betrayal quest with) will no longer be unique is mildly annoying, but the fact that she can walk into Qeynos or Kelethin unmolested (sans a few tiresome snide remarks -SHE WILL NOT TEACH YOU NECROMANCY YOU IDIOT ERUDITE- Sorry for the rant :p ) and can own a house in Halas is unique.

Shiirr

07-29-2010, 03:20 AM

<cite>Elusion@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Good coercers and assassins are just laughable.... Between F2P and this BS all I have is one movie quote "Game over man"</blockquote>You ain't alone.

Wurm

07-29-2010, 03:57 AM

<cite>Phia@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have to understand that getting in new players is vital to the survival of EQ2. I don't know if this will help in that regard, but it won't hurt.</blockquote>Its called ADVERTISING!! Something that they still haven't figured out after all these years.

Gungo

07-29-2010, 01:32 PM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Master wu has been refered as the avatar of tranquility several times in EQ2 lore. If in eq1 he is refered to the demi god of enlightenment that is NOT canon to eq2 lore. Regardless of how you spin lore to fit your need the disciples are MONKS, they have monk buffs. The swifttail monks still worship cazic thule and thus are evil, I honestly do not know where you pull out your lore about them following master wu. The broken shackle clan was outside sebilis where you had to do the shackle quest series. They are not even true followers of venril and are at odds with him. Honestly you are just making lore up at this point and have no idea what you are talking about. </blockquote><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/Cusashorn/HandofSerenity.png" width="609" height="867" /><img src="http://i28.tinypic.com/2uelfds.jpg" /><a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/faction.html?eq2faction=222" target="_blank">"The Swifttail Caste of monks survived the fall of Cabilis and have relocated their temple training ground to Kunzar Jungle."</a><a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/mob.html?eq2mob=b3d99d5750af8cee5560ac12764eb04a" target="_blank">"a Broken Shackle initiate"</a><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Trial_of_Tynnonium" target="_blank">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Trial_of_Tynnonium</a>Gungo, you and I both need to realize that neither one of us is perfect. I know my Monk lore, and have been corrected quite a few times for other things, but you're not perfect either.</blockquote>I did not do the monk epic so i did not see he was a demi-god of the plane of serenity. The fact remains whether he was a demi god or not he is still the avatar of tranquility. If you actually read the book you posted the avatar of tranquility TOOK back the plane of serenity from master wu since she needed the power. He has since been considered the avatar of tranquility. He was the avatar of tranqulity in the battle of defiance that defeated the avatar of war. And as such throughout the entire history of eq2 he has been the avatar of tranquility and not a demigod.Also all those links on the swifttail caste and yet there is NO reference anywhere of the swifttail monks being followers of master wu and turning away from cazic thule. You are correct though and I did make the mistake of stating the broken shackle monks were all located outside sebilis. But if you did the quest series for the shackles you would see they are at odds with venril.

Eritius

07-29-2010, 02:34 PM

Last I heard, Monks weren't required to follow Master Wu or Quellious in EQ2. Maybe in EQ1 where classes were restricted by religion. But here they are not.Tier'dal Monk of Innoruuk. Why is this possible? Because Monks, unlike Bruisers are more focused and disciplined. Your Bruiser is like Chuck Liddell from UFC. Your monk is probably more like Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris. In otherwords, two different fighting styles. Being evil or good doesn't mean you can't be focused. In fact in that example, monks make more sense then bruisers. Monks are Strikers, Bruisers are Grapplers.I'm sorry some of you had a preformed conception of what monks are, but that conception has now changed. Want to be good? Play good. But live and let live and let the evils have their stuff too. Besides some of you aren't even playing on RP servers, this change will largely Not affect you. However I do play on the RP servers and the reception of these changes is postitive from most of who I've spoken to.As for good assassins, what do you think our Army Special Forces are? Pretty good at taking out both military and political targets. In fact the only difference between Rangers and Assassins is one melees and the other uses a bow. About time this was reflected in the mechanics of alignment. In EQ1 the Scouts of Tunare (rogue guild) had feir'dal assassins of their own to counter the Ebon Mask.I haven't seen it in this thread so far, but Illusionists and Coercers seem ok with everyone. This just makes sense. If anyone thinks otherwise, there's no hope for you.Inquisitors and Templars. Merely different functions of their respective churches. I plan on RPing an Inquisitor of Mithaniel Marr in fact. There were a few that were hestiant about this, but I was easily able to convice (convert maybe..?) them otherwise. But then again, no one expects the Marr Inquisition XD

Iskandar

07-29-2010, 04:04 PM

Don't stress on it guys! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm sure they'll add a full lore explanation to the Marketplace any day now.

Cusashorn

07-29-2010, 05:09 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Master wu has been refered as the avatar of tranquility several times in EQ2 lore. If in eq1 he is refered to the demi god of enlightenment that is NOT canon to eq2 lore. Regardless of how you spin lore to fit your need the disciples are MONKS, they have monk buffs. The swifttail monks still worship cazic thule and thus are evil, I honestly do not know where you pull out your lore about them following master wu. The broken shackle clan was outside sebilis where you had to do the shackle quest series. They are not even true followers of venril and are at odds with him. Honestly you are just making lore up at this point and have no idea what you are talking about. </blockquote><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/Cusashorn/HandofSerenity.png" width="609" height="867" /><img src="http://i28.tinypic.com/2uelfds.jpg" /><a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/faction.html?eq2faction=222" target="_blank">"The Swifttail Caste of monks survived the fall of Cabilis and have relocated their temple training ground to Kunzar Jungle."</a><a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/mob.html?eq2mob=b3d99d5750af8cee5560ac12764eb04a" target="_blank">"a Broken Shackle initiate"</a><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Trial_of_Tynnonium" target="_blank">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Trial_of_Tynnonium</a>Gungo, you and I both need to realize that neither one of us is perfect. I know my Monk lore, and have been corrected quite a few times for other things, but you're not perfect either.</blockquote>I did not do the monk epic so i did not see he was a demi-god of the plane of serenity. The fact remains whether he was a demi god or not he is still the avatar of tranquility. If you actually read the book you posted the avatar of tranquility TOOK back the plane of serenity from master wu since she needed the power. He has since been considered the avatar of tranquility. He was the avatar of tranqulity in the battle of defiance that defeated the avatar of war. And as such throughout the entire history of eq2 he has been the avatar of tranquility and not a demigod.Also all those links on the swifttail caste and yet there is NO reference anywhere of the swifttail monks being followers of master wu and turning away from cazic thule. You are correct though and I did make the mistake of stating the broken shackle monks were all located outside sebilis. But if you did the quest series for the shackles you would see they are at odds with venril.</blockquote>I never really said the Swifttails followed Master Wu. All I said was that even in EQlive, despite being more aggressive, many Swifttails found enlightenment through thier own methods of training, and some even learned to respect others and not be so rash to fight. Nowadays, the Swifttails seem to take a fairly neutral stance to the politics in Kunark, and allow outsiders the chance to prove themselves to them. They are at odds with Venril, but aren't making him an enemy. He allows them to train on their island, and if I remember correctly, they would have to fight for him if needed. It's just that the Broken Shackle clan inside Sebilis completely disregard everything the Swifttails stand for. They're malevolent fighters who are completely loyal to Venril. I would like to think this change in attitude might be a result of some of the grandmasters realizing that they can't prove themselves and get everything they want through agressiveness.It's the Grandmaster of the Swifttails who helps you reconstruct the Hand of Serenity as well. He mentions how Master Wu has influenced his own training style over the years, and is one person he truely respects.Anyways, back to the matter at hand, as I've mentioned before, I really wouldn't have much of a problem with this if only everything was given a proper explanation.

kelvmor

07-29-2010, 05:17 PM

I still don't understand why people can't wrap their heads around good assassins.Though, TBH, you gotta admit, there's gotta be some sort of sneaky, hired murderer lurking about Qeynos. A couple more of those wouldn't be too bad.One in particular, from the HQ, is Lodo Bightn, that halfling that hangs around Irontoes in NQ.

Dreadpatch

07-29-2010, 05:20 PM

<cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't stress on it guys! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> I'm sure they'll add a full lore explanation to the Marketplace any day now.</blockquote>hilarious and sad

Zabjade

07-29-2010, 05:39 PM

Want Sad...the New Fetal Pose Monks use for Mending...As for Classes I can see a Good Shadowknight or Necromancer(one acts as in the manner of a shaman allowing spirits to eventually rest by allowing them to fight along side them so they can continue on to their ultimate destiny, the other acts as a Doctor in the manner of using necromancy to kill Cancer cells)

Cusashorn

07-29-2010, 05:41 PM

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>Want Sad...the New Fetal Pose Monks use for Mending...</blockquote>What?

kelvmor

07-29-2010, 05:51 PM

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>Want Sad...the New Fetal Pose Monks use for Mending...As for Classes I can see a Good Shadowknight or Necromancer(one acts as in the manner of a shaman allowing spirits to eventually rest by allowing them to fight along side them so they can continue on to their ultimate destiny, the other acts as a Doctor in the manner of using necromancy to kill Cancer cells)</blockquote>...That's what Mystics do, kind of.

Cusashorn

07-29-2010, 06:48 PM

Well, I just asked Cronyn via PM about this whole thing, and my worries have been put at ease, at least.He says that while it won't be added in immediately with GU 57, each class will have sufficient explanations why they can now exist in their new cities. He says the Bruisers were his favorite to write up, and all cities will have an assassin and ranger representative and all that for the other classes too.As long as it's explained, then I don't have a big deal with it. I'll accept what comes. I can't deny that I'm curious to know why the Disciples of Hate have martial artists now. Sure, they're dedicated to Innoruuk like the faction itself is, but the faction has always been a priest faction in the past. I can accept following Innoruuk for discipline as a fair reason though.

Eritius

07-29-2010, 09:32 PM

Why does SOE need to be the ones to give us the explaination? I'm not going to wait for them to tell me what my character is, I already decided that on my own. But then again I do play on a RP server. We do that every day.

kelvmor

07-30-2010, 02:14 AM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, I just asked Cronyn via PM about this whole thing, and my worries have been put at ease, at least.He says that while it won't be added in immediately with GU 57, each class will have sufficient explanations why they can now exist in their new cities. He says the Bruisers were his favorite to write up, and all cities will have an assassin and ranger representative and all that for the other classes too.As long as it's explained, then I don't have a big deal with it. I'll accept what comes. I can't deny that I'm curious to know why the Disciples of Hate have martial artists now. Sure, they're dedicated to Innoruuk like the faction itself is, but the faction has always been a priest faction in the past. I can accept following Innoruuk for discipline as a fair reason though.</blockquote>I love Cronyn. He's a dwarf, and therefore immediately awesome and win.

BabyAngel

07-30-2010, 06:46 AM

.......Starting off as a good assassins? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> Again I am concerned about faction population imbalance.

Zabjade

07-30-2010, 07:09 AM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote>Want Sad...the New Fetal Pose Monks use for Mending...</blockquote>What?</blockquote>I Hearby Direct you to the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=483626" target="_blank">Thread I started on the Topic </a>WITH SCREENCAPTURE.

Enever

07-30-2010, 01:12 PM

Right! Assassins from Halas. I can see them all wanting to be bloody murderers who work with whoever pays them the most coin. Oh! better yet a fae Assassin from Kelethin!Some of these I don't mind however, I have beef with Asasssins/Rangers, Coercers/Illusionists, and Templar/Inquisitidor.

Trevalon

07-30-2010, 01:53 PM

<cite>Enever wrote:</cite><blockquote>Right! Assassins from Halas. I can see them all wanting to be bloody murderers who work with whoever pays them the most coin. Oh! better yet a fae Assassin from Kelethin!Some of these I don't mind however, I have beef with Asasssins/Rangers, Coercers/Illusionists, and Templar/Inquisitidor.</blockquote>If I remember correctly in Original EQ Barbarians, Starting in Halas, could be Rogues, which is the assassin equivalent in that game.Wood Elves, starting in Kelethin...could also be rogues.You see the lore is there for people starting in "good" cities to be assassins - you just have to look for it.So from a lore standpoint, Many years ago they allowed these devious types to run freely in their streets even recruited them, but over time with all the issues they took the moral high ground and rooted out all those who didn't agree completely with their visions (Antonia and Lucan). Now because times are getting hard they are suddenly waivering on their morals and letting those unscrupulous types back into their cities for the greater good of their city.Makes sense to me.

Eritius

07-30-2010, 02:02 PM

I've already explained how these classes were neutral from both a logical perspective and a lore (though I prefer to RP it out) one.Rangers and Assasins. Whats the difference between these two classes? They both hunt and kill, the method is one uses a bow, the other uses a dagger/sword/axe. Both use poison. Why would Rangers be good only when Freeport, Neriak, and Gorowyn(especially) do have a use for a master tracker of the wilderness thats good with a bow. With agents of evil everywhere, right even on and within their doorsteps, Qeynos, Kelethin, and Halas have use for the urban hunter that is an Assassin.From a lore perspective, in EQ1 Kelethin had its own assassins, the Scouts of Tunare. Go do some of that newbie armor quests for a Wood Elf Rogue if its still in that game to see. I believe Old Halas had its own assassins as well. As for Evils getting rangers, pull that AD&D handbook out where it shouldn't be and back in the attic. All a ranger is, is one who travels the wilderness hunting targets. This might be blood thirsty orcs, or innocent traders.Illusionists and Conjurors. I'm sorry this never made sense to me. Why wouldn't evil have illusionists? Nothing an illusionist does counters anything Freeport, Neriak, or Gorowyn would stand for. Coercers... maybe. Using tricks of the mind could be evil. But its nothing Enchanters didn't already used to do. Its two specializations of the same neutral class. Like I said, if you're having an issue with this, then I don't know what to tell you. Making an orc fight against its brethern isn't an evil act. Making flashy colors and blinding people isn't a good act either. All shades of grey here.Monks and Bruisers. Both hand to hand fighters. Two different styles. Bruisers are grapplers and Monks are strikers. Whats so good or bad about either one of that? In fact when you get down to it, grappling is much less painful to the target then striking. Maybe monks should be evil instead? Yeah thats rediculous, as in any other discussion about monks or bruisers having to be good or evil.Inquisitors and Templars. Two functions of the church. With the return of the gods it is the duty of the churches to spread the word of their faith. It is also their duty to defend the people of that faith from harm and corruption. Even the Church of Innoruuk would have Templars to help guide the faithful and protect them from the horrors of mercy and love. But Innoruuk and his followers are evil! Of course they are, but they don't see themselves as such. The church has to protect its followers so... well it has followers. Remember they are teaching what they honestly believe, even Dark Elves have faith and deeply faithful in some cases.Inquisitors of good aligned cities. To gain more influence over Norrath, a god must have more followers. Since their withdrawal, many have lost faith over the centuries, this is where the Inquisitors come in. Who is to say that Mithaniel Marr would not have Inquisitors of his own to convert the masses to the words of Valor. And to punish the evils of fear, hate, and destruction? The Paladin is the guardian and hero of his people, the Inquisitor is the hand of his or her god.And again, we don't need to have SOE tell us these explainations. We can RP them ourselves. The story of Norrath isn't written in stone. We as the players write our stories in conjunction with the big picture. For example, I have a ranger that follows both Tunare and Erollisi. Revering Tunare as the Mother of All and Erollisi as the Huntress. Nothing bad about that, but there isn't any rangers in the story that does this already, so is mine out of place? I don't tend to think so. And I don't need a character in the lore to base mine off of. Besides that would be boring, that character already exists, why would I want to clone them? Course I'm not trying to play a good Shadowknight, a good Shadowknight is a Paladin and vice versa.

Cusashorn

07-30-2010, 02:10 PM

<cite>Trevalon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Enever wrote:</cite><blockquote>Right! Assassins from Halas. I can see them all wanting to be bloody murderers who work with whoever pays them the most coin. Oh! better yet a fae Assassin from Kelethin!Some of these I don't mind however, I have beef with Asasssins/Rangers, Coercers/Illusionists, and Templar/Inquisitidor.</blockquote>If I remember correctly in Original EQ Barbarians, Starting in Halas, could be Rogues, which is the assassin equivalent in that game.Wood Elves, starting in Kelethin...could also be rogues.You see the lore is there for people starting in "good" cities to be assassins - you just have to look for it.So from a lore standpoint, Many years ago they allowed these devious types to run freely in their streets even recruited them, but over time with all the issues they took the moral high ground and rooted out all those who didn't agree completely with their visions (Antonia and Lucan). Now because times are getting hard they are suddenly waivering on their morals and letting those unscrupulous types back into their cities for the greater good of their city.Makes sense to me.</blockquote>In the exclusive sense of the Rogues of the White Rose and Scouts of Tunare, they were more or less Swashbucklers who worked directly for the city. They weren't assassins, they were scouts.

KniteShayd

07-30-2010, 09:28 PM

It's funny how everyone seems to forget how up in arms people were when this happened on PvP. Nothing killed the PvP when this happened. at worst, it made the game better for most folks.Under my PvP main, I posted (numerous times) the arguement for more nuetral classes.Honestly, The only should be good class I can think of is a pally. Regardless, there have always been Pallies in FP, And who's to say their isn't anymore?... Just because we don't see them out there openly, doesn't mean that everyone no longer has the "faith" in FP.Conversely, SK's, Necros, and Warlocks are all evil. Don't be fooled by the nuetrality of the Warlock in this game. Traditionally they run the spectrum of chaotic neutral (if even) to pure evil. Our Warlock's draw power from the Void. That, in itself, could be seen as an evil. Just like the Erudite Necros were seen as evil, even though most of them were practicing out of pure educational interest.Coercers have never seemed evil to me. I liken them to Psionicists from other games. Using mental abilities is a very grey area. Just as fooling people into thinking your something you're really not (Illusions), could be used for purposes other than entertainment. Both should always have been nuetral.IMHO, the obsession for balance has ruined the experience for most people to enjoy the summoner classes. I understand that with this balancing obsession, the only easy thing to do was make Conjy's good. But I really think they should have let them be nuetral as well. Since they always were in EQ.As stated by me in other threads, there will always be fervant/fanatical followers of any diety. Therefore, I can never believe the arguement for evil only Inquisitors. Look at any fantasy lore out there, rival dieties always do battle, and so their followers. You can't tell me a fervant follower of Quellious would be absolutley passive to an Orc in a time of war. especially if they could torture it into giving vital info on winning a battle. Of course, in the end, it would all be in the name of peace... And any guardian of faith, whether Tunare or Inny, would help heal the wounds of ther allies. Therefore, Templars Can be just as grey as Inqy's. The only thing that makes people cringe about Temps goin Nuetral is the fact the class is called Templar. If it was called something else, it may be less of a shock to see them go nuetral.Assassins good?, say it ain't so?! [/sarcasm off] I'm curious to know what everyone thinks when someone (NPC) ask's you to go kill some boss mob? Um, that's pretty much assassination of a figure head. And YOU killed it, whether you are good aligned or not. So why would an assassin not be seen, or hired, for the benefit of Qeynos? Rangers in EQ where pretty much limited to a few races, most of which were considered good. But there is nothing about the Ranger class which would suggest good only. Granted that EQ/EQ2's diety system strongly favors good aligned rangers. But there is always a case for evil races to have Rangers as well. I.E. field scouts of Rallos' armies, or woodland scouts for Neriak throughout DLW and Nek Forest.To believe that Qeynos is a Utopia of all that is good is to wear some very thick rose colored glasses. Brigs have every reason to exist in Qeynos, as they do in freeport. And just like a pally would not be so open about himself in FP, I would expect the same to be said for a Brig in Qeynos.Bruisers are basically street fighters. One good look at the inn in Greystone Yard, and you would know that there was a brawl there. And chances are, it wasn't made a mess by Monks. The Dwarves did have a sect of Monk, But I highly doubt it was anything like the Ashen Order. And I am willing to bet a plat, there fighting style was more bruiser-like.Now a Defiler, I would have a hard time making a case for. With all the added AA's and such for a Mystic though, I now see Mystic more of a watered down BL, and a defiler more like EQ's Shaman in comparison. Shaman's and BL's were more neutral and evil aligned any way. So having a Mystic in FP wouldn't make me blink twice.Since the mechanics of the classes are already there, I wouldn't expect there to be some in-game lore explanation. Just like I don't expect one for spell and CA alterations.It seems silly to me to completely limit classes to alignments, since we don't limit races to classes.

Eritius

07-30-2010, 11:40 PM

Something I didn't think of in my earlier posts. These classes that are becoming neutral are just that, Neutral. Assassins aren't becoming good, they are just becoming available to Good Cities. Qeynos allows Humans, Kerra, Gnomes, Half Elves, ect in it even though it is a good city.Well they are doing good things! Are they? Or are they just not doing anything bad against Queen Antonia? If you have an Assassin in Qeynos who is working against those that are against Qeynos, why would Queen Antonia go out of her way to research what just went down?Say for example in the lore they said so and so snuck into Neriak and poisoned and killed an official there. Who's to say it wasn't one of her precious Swashbucklers? Regardless they'd be celebrated as a hero.Why is a Human Guardian who is a citizen of Qeynos not allowed to enter Neriak? Its not because he's human, its not because he's a guardian. Its because he's a citizen of Qeynos. Now Assassins, Coercers, Inquisitors and Bruisers are allowed to be in Qeynos (Probably getting retconned in, thats how I'd do it if the Lore explaination is THAT much needed), and they are working perhaps not always for the good of the city, but not for the bad either.Hence Neutral.

ElnAckom

07-31-2010, 12:00 AM

[Cronyn] says that while it won't be added in immediately with GU 57, each class will have sufficient explanations why they can now exist in their new cities. He says the Bruisers were his favorite to write up, and all cities will have an assassin and ranger representative and all that for the other classes too.I hope they do more than write a blurb. This is going to take some storytelling and lore work. New "you don't belong here and we know it" type quest lines would go a long way towards smoothing this over. As with so many things, content is your key to salvation, team.

Eritius

07-31-2010, 12:15 AM

<cite>Sesketh@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>[Cronyn] says that while it won't be added in immediately with GU 57, each class will have sufficient explanations why they can now exist in their new cities. He says the Bruisers were his favorite to write up, and all cities will have an assassin and ranger representative and all that for the other classes too.I hope they do more than write a blurb. This is going to take some storytelling and lore work. New "you don't belong here and we know it" type quest lines would go a long way towards smoothing this over. As with so many things, content is your key to salvation, team.</blockquote>Meh, I'd actually prefer they didn't have explainations. This would leave the players the option of making up their own stories without the typical lore-lawyers telling them how to make their stories. Like I know there is a few that would say I'm wrong for RPing a DE SK that is more loyal to the City of Neriak then just the Queen or the Church.

Cusashorn

07-31-2010, 12:22 AM

<cite>Taemien@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sesketh@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>[Cronyn] says that while it won't be added in immediately with GU 57, each class will have sufficient explanations why they can now exist in their new cities. He says the Bruisers were his favorite to write up, and all cities will have an assassin and ranger representative and all that for the other classes too.I hope they do more than write a blurb. This is going to take some storytelling and lore work. New "you don't belong here and we know it" type quest lines would go a long way towards smoothing this over. As with so many things, content is your key to salvation, team.</blockquote>Meh, I'd actually prefer they didn't have explainations. This would leave the players the option of making up their own stories without the typical lore-lawyers telling them how to make their stories. Like I know there is a few that would say I'm wrong for RPing a DE SK that is more loyal to the City of Neriak then just the Queen or the Church.</blockquote>Actually, nobody would really say that. A shadowknight loyal to the city, regardless of who runs it, is nothing that anyone would berate you for. However, there have to be lore guidelines. Sure, as a roleplayer, you can make up and follow whatever the hell you want to believe, but for the rest of us, there have to be explanations to help enhance our understanding of the game, and thus making our gameplay experiences better.

ElnAckom

07-31-2010, 02:21 AM

there have to be explanations to help enhance our understanding of the game, and thus making our gameplay experiences better.Exactly. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Big thumbs up.

kelvmor

07-31-2010, 02:34 AM

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taemien@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sesketh@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>[Cronyn] says that while it won't be added in immediately with GU 57, each class will have sufficient explanations why they can now exist in their new cities. He says the Bruisers were his favorite to write up, and all cities will have an assassin and ranger representative and all that for the other classes too.I hope they do more than write a blurb. This is going to take some storytelling and lore work. New "you don't belong here and we know it" type quest lines would go a long way towards smoothing this over. As with so many things, content is your key to salvation, team.</blockquote>Meh, I'd actually prefer they didn't have explainations. This would leave the players the option of making up their own stories without the typical lore-lawyers telling them how to make their stories. Like I know there is a few that would say I'm wrong for RPing a DE SK that is more loyal to the City of Neriak then just the Queen or the Church.</blockquote>Actually, nobody would really say that. A shadowknight loyal to the city, regardless of who runs it, is nothing that anyone would berate you for. However, there have to be lore guidelines. Sure, as a roleplayer, you can make up and follow whatever the hell you want to believe, but for the rest of us, there have to be explanations to help enhance our understanding of the game, and thus making our gameplay experiences better.</blockquote>I am an RPer. I am also a lore purist. I do not like to see Naruto/Bleach/Crazy demon vampire characters in game. I generally adhere to EqII lore with all of my characters. Don't throw all roleplayers in the same boat as those crazy idiots who claim to be the demigod son of Mistmoore and Edward Cullen. :As for SKs that are more loyal to Neriak than the Queen or the Church... That's perfectly acceptable, as long as you aren't half Saryrn/Terris-Thule/Void demon or something. :P

Buneary

07-31-2010, 08:56 AM

and all cities will have an assassin and ranger representative and all that for the other classes too.that really doesnt make any sense. classes having representatives?me mean, its not like people come out and say "hey im an assassin!". thats supposed to be *secret* stuff AND defining people by their class can interfer with the whole RP perspective.and really, Qeynos could already have assassins and inquisitors and the queen doesnt know it. me always think that "good" and "evil" shouldnt be labled to ANY class because its the person , not the class, that defines themselves. just like races.but in the end, me really think they should just leave all the classes alone. there really isnt any "good" reason to make all those classes neutral, but then only leave a few others not.

Gungo

07-31-2010, 11:56 AM

<cite>Buneary wrote:</cite><blockquote>and all cities will have an assassin and ranger representative and all that for the other classes too.that really doesnt make any sense. classes having representatives?me mean, its not like people come out and say "hey im an assassin!". thats supposed to be *secret* stuff AND defining people by their class can interfer with the whole RP perspective.and really, Qeynos could already have assassins and inquisitors and the queen doesnt know it. me always think that "good" and "evil" shouldnt be labled to ANY class because its the person , not the class, that defines themselves. just like races.but in the end, me really think they should just leave all the classes alone. there really isnt any "good" reason to make all those classes neutral, but then only leave a few others not.</blockquote>I agree with you completely but I guess we will see. I much rather have assassin start in evil cities be allowed ot betray to qeynos and secretly spie on qeynos as an infiltrator with thier class representative located in the guild hall of the circle of the unseen hand either in the catacombs or in a special tier 1 guild hall instance.

KniteShayd

07-31-2010, 02:11 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Buneary wrote:</cite><blockquote>and all cities will have an assassin and ranger representative and all that for the other classes too.that really doesnt make any sense. classes having representatives?me mean, its not like people come out and say "hey im an assassin!". thats supposed to be *secret* stuff AND defining people by their class can interfer with the whole RP perspective.and really, Qeynos could already have assassins and inquisitors and the queen doesnt know it. me always think that "good" and "evil" shouldnt be labled to ANY class because its the person , not the class, that defines themselves. just like races.but in the end, me really think they should just leave all the classes alone. there really isnt any "good" reason to make all those classes neutral, but then only leave a few others not.</blockquote>I agree with you completely but I guess we will see. I much rather have assassin start in evil cities be allowed ot betray to qeynos and secretly spie on qeynos as an infiltrator with thier class representative located in the guild hall of the circle of the unseen hand either in the catacombs or in a special tier 1 guild hall instance. </blockquote>That's what they did in PvP. The PvP servers are any class/any faction, but to have an "evil" class in a "good" city, one must betray. And vice versa for "good" to "evil".

Larkverdin

08-03-2010, 05:42 PM

So I just found the GU57 patch notes and I agree with all of the new neutral classes except the warlock. Arn't they pretty much evil wizards? That's the idea I got from reading their class overview a while back. So unless something's changed, I'm slightly confused. Any warlocks mind coming up with an argument validating why your class should be neutral instead of evil?

Bionickai001

08-03-2010, 07:04 PM

Warlock has been neutral from the get go. You could always make a Warlock in the good cities. That's not one of the changes.

Cusashorn

08-03-2010, 08:32 PM

Yeah warlocks have been neutral right from the get-go.

DukeOccam

08-03-2010, 11:22 PM

Personally I think all classes should be neutral (aside from Paladins, Shadowknights, Necromancers, and maybe a couple others), and I think all cities should be neutral.Maybe it's all the George R. R. Martin I've been reading lately, or all the Dragon Age: Origins I've been playing, but grey is ever so much more fun than black or white. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Jaremai

08-04-2010, 09:35 AM

So a "good" warlock is okay but a "good" necromancer isn't.. just because that's how it's always been? Tradition does not make a justification if that tradition is found to be wrong.The only thing about this change that bugs me is that my woodelf inquisitor would have to re-betray to get back to Kelethin. He was never evil to begin with, he's just a hardass and wanted the training to go with it. The fae in Kelethin need to be brought into line and respect their gods again.. so I'm glad he can be a "good" inquisitor, just not so glad about having to deal with betrayal and finding 20 ulteran diamonds.

Cusashorn

08-04-2010, 01:08 PM

<cite>Jaremai@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>So a "good" warlock is okay but a "good" necromancer isn't.. just because that's how it's always been? Tradition does not make a justification if that tradition is found to be wrong.</blockquote>How is the tradition wrong in this sense? There is no such thing as a good necromancer. They defile and take control of the dead with very little respect in regards to how they go about doing it. There is NOTHING in Qeynosian or Kelethinite society that would ever justify this. Paineel might do it for scientific study, but Qeynos has more respect for the dead. Warlocks and wizards have always been neutral. What exactly makes a warlock evil? Just because they use poisons?I think traditions should be above all the number 1 factor for keeping something consistent. You don't just retcon 11 and 5 years of tradition to suddenly explain that a sect of monks who worship Innoruuk has existed for 500 years I bet they'll retcon all these new classes to explain that they are not new, but have existed for years. I hope that is not the case.

Eritius

08-04-2010, 02:12 PM

You can be a good Necromancer. You just can't start or gain citizenship in Qeynos, Halas, or Kelethin. Go ahead and start in Neriak and betray to Haven. There's your good Necro. You'll never gain the full trust of one of the good cities unless you drop your art of necromancy, but at least you know you'll be good in your own heart.Yes I'm being halfway sarcastic, but that would be the route you'd have to go.Warlocks don't really do bad things. They call down curses and other things, but so do mystics. I don't think the void itself is seen as being evil, just the ones currently controlling/living in it.When you speak of good and evil, you have to look at it from a subjective point of view. And not your own mind you. But the ones of the 6 cities. Yes you could be that rare necromancer who is raising the dead of animals and the like or that of monsters. But raising the dead and the other rituals that goes with being a necromancer doesn't sit well with Qeynos, Halas, or Kelethin. Your character can convince themselves all day that they are good and just, but you're not convincing those three cities.With paladins and shadowknights. An Evil Paladin is a Shadowknight. There is no good Shadowknight. Their powers are from doing very bad things. If you're not doing bad things, you don't have that power. You're better off being a paladin or warrior who had a dark past and converted.Defilers are not welcome in those cities for the same reasons as the necromancer. Instead of defiling the dead, you're defiling nature (imagine that? a defiler defiles!) and using twisted spirits. Mystics are likewise not welcome in Neriak, Freeport, or Gorowyn(to the point of no citizenship at least). This is because they consort with noble and benevolent spirits.Brigands and Swashbucklers are where a line has been drawn and its hard to see the difference here. There was a pattern they had to follow and that was one archetype had to be good or evil in each subclass. For scouts it was rogues. Swashbucklers are your robin hoods basically. Brigands are just that, nasty thieves.I know a similar argument could be made about some the neutral classes, but the counter argument to that is Qeynos, Halas, Kelethin, Neriak, Freeport, and Gorowyn have made their decision. Its not yours to question, only to follow. Unless you wish to live in Haven.

Iskandar

08-04-2010, 05:39 PM

Personally, I think Robin Hood makes a good analogy. In this example, Robin Hood is thief -- what we would call a Brigand, typically seen as an evil role. He has a good heart -- but due to the choices he has to make, it's not possible for him to be anything else (such as a Swashbuckler) at this time (his home town is of evil alignment, and does not allow good classes). So he has left Nottingham (Freeport), where an evil Sherriff (Lucan) reigns with his ruthless militia, to live in exile in Sherwood Forest (Haven). The things he says and the actions he take (his roleplaying) define his true nature more than the actual role (class) he plays.Eventually, the King returns and removes the evil Sherriff (Nottingham changes alignment from evil to good), and Robin swears fealty to him. No longer forced to live as a Brigand, he can now assume the role of a good law-abiding citizen (like a Swashbuckler) if he likes (in other words, he can finish the Betrayal quest he began when he first left Nottingham)... or he can stay in Sherwood and protect it from any other evil dangers that remain (stay in Haven and continue to roleplay a good-aligned Brigand).The point is, it's not necessary for the game itself to allow good Necromancers or evil Templars. If you wish to play those roles, there are already ways to do just that -- and going to Haven is not the only option. A little imagination can go a long ways!