Critical Healing taken away.. because? [Archive]

Crazysmurf

07-27-2010, 06:36 PM

If the reason is to balance our ability to solo zones they have fixed the wrong thing. I don't know about anyone else but I don't click my heals often when soloing easier heroic content, the power procs from T8 raid gear, and the lifetap / stonewill procs from T9 pvp / pve gear is what keeps me alive. If i was spamming heals with no enchanter i would run out of power very quickly. If the issue is PvP there is a system in place to balance PvP CAs and spells, they can just reduce the base #s of the offending abilities in PvP situations. My gut feeling is that the dev team doesn't quite know how to fix the marginalization of heroic content, by the current raid gear. This is a systemic problem that can't be fixed by nerfing one class or type of ability, it is an itemazation problem, the quality of gear obtained in raid zones is so far above the quality from heroic zones it either has to be VERY VERY hard for the casual environment, or largely trivial for the hardcore environment. My suggestion to fix this problem is to expand upon an already tried and true idea within EQ2..... make hard mode and easy mode heroic zones. Each could be balanced based on the expected level of gear of hte participants. Instead of alienating an entire class / archetype make more of a challenge for those geared people who theoretically have put the time / money into supporting / paying for EQ2 more than those who have lesser gear. I don't believe this would take all that much work from a design standpoint, simply figure out how hard x4 raid mobs hit and make the nameds hit a little less than that scaling up as the difficulty of the zones get harder. For example: the library end guy would hit nearly as hard as mobs like easy mode azara the seer hits. research halls hits as hard as easy mode roehn theer. Palace of roehn theer end guy hits as hard as HM palace content, or slightly less to compensate for hte lack of debuffs. The loot wouldnt even have to be amazing, the zones in which the content would require T3 quality gear to compete could have a chance to drop a T3 quality raid piece, but maybe more often drop masters / or a pretty good piece for an alt. Changes like this would require a little effort at first but I believe would help EQ more than trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube with the itemization problem.

Gaer

07-27-2010, 06:40 PM

I third this thread. What i would like to know is Why? And what do we get in return? More DPS? I hope Kiara can answer these questions for us. Though i have to admit, as much as this hurts us, imagine what the SK's must be feeling, they have bad heals to start now they have no crit heal. -snicker-

Armeng

07-27-2010, 06:45 PM

also wondering whyand to answer the question what we get in return, i'm betting "nothing"

Dimgl

07-27-2010, 07:33 PM

This is ridiculous. I rolled a Paladin specifically so I would have the flexibility of playing back-up healer when I wasn't tanking. I don't enjoy playing DPS. I like tanking and I like healing. Now I can only fill one role. I frequently solo heal zones already, and VERY often I find myself the only healer in battlegrounds groups. Those groups are now out of luck.In those cases I mostly stand back and heal. I play like a legitimate healer. What is wrong with this?This is honestly enough to make me unsubscribe. To recapture my old playstyle I'd have to level a warden and then I'd have to regear, reskill, and complete the 2500+ quests I have just to be back at even.This is unacceptable.

Frezzyisfuzzy

07-27-2010, 08:09 PM

This change is going to take our healing back to where it was a couple years ago, back when some of us didn't even keep the spells on our hotbars. We were told that such a scenario was not the intended vision for paladins. So they drastically lowered casting times on our heal spells to make them worth using. Now, to simply make them significantly less effective, is essentially reversing that change. Sure, they cast faster than they used to it, but for minimal gain. This change is directly at odds with the previous statements on how they want the paladin class to utilize heals. The ONLY heal spell we have that I can see being a little bit more powerful than it should be is Divine Favor. I don't think it was ever intended to be a full heal, which is essentially what it is now with decent gear. A much, much more balanced change would be to make just this spell unable to crit. Even with only potency affecting it, it should still get most of us up to around 50-60% health, which is enough to give healers a second chance.

Morgue

07-27-2010, 08:42 PM

So basically paladins get the shaft on heals again, and INQ still get higher dps then some melees and critical heals?

Boli32

07-28-2010, 07:16 AM

Imho this change is pretty much an outright nerf to paladin survibility.The heals a paladin gets should be altered/changed as this change reverts us back to the same issues we had preior to the stats consolidation where 90% of our healing power was uselessPaladin Aid (Single Target heal)This is a single target heal with a 1.5s (0.75s with AA) cast speed - in current game mechanics it is under used. With its fast recast you can spend a large portion of time spaming this in order to generate healing power. This is massively power intensive and takes paladins away from the role of tanking and into the role of healers.As of right now with it criting it has been used more as your "go to button" when you take a damage spike given it can crit quite high Once crits are removed especially for higher content this function is effectivly been rendered useless.Paladins do not *want* to spend all our time clicking this button it is an ineffective use of our time. the crit made it useful to deal with spike damage - it is now useless again.Prayer of HealingThis is perhaps my favourite spell of all, in its current state due to the high crit chance I was able to top up my group after an AoE hit allowing the healers in my group to cure first - this allowed my group to survive better and imho was the perfect paladin spell as it protected your entire group.With the crit chance removed the amount returned is making me rethink the red adorn and AA points I have invested in it. a heal of 2-3k to the group is laughable with the amount of health avaialble to people now.SacramentIt has always been our slowest heal, with the high crits it slipped nicely into a secondary lay on hands role of you damage spike and help the healers in putting you in the green again. The heal crit change means it has become useless once more - spending the inordinate amoutn of time casting for a mere 3-4k heal is pitaful - even on live I was often made green by the healers before this spell was even cast. This spell is rendered useless again.Lay On HandsThe recast on this means it isn't up all the time - and whilst it is better than it used to be having a heal of 12k when you are buffed up to well over 30k in a raid just doesn;t cut it. It has and never did scale correctly. this should have always been a % based heal which scales with the amount of health a paladin can get as the more geared you are the less and less useful this spell is.Demonstration of FaithThis will always be a sore point in terms of healing power as since its a ward it will always be removed first so all heal parses are inflated by it. but what those heal parses do not show is 1.5s casting speed (too slow when its a spell and interupts are not only frequent but expected) and for anythgin harder than the easiest instances its gone instantly.What crits gave this ward was a nice little boost so when you got slammed for a 36k double attack (2x 18k) the ward if it was up and full allowed you to survive what potentially you coudl have eaisly died from. Obviously crit bonus didn't not effect as other heals; but they did hep wioth what is often in raid fights pretty much a one shot deal.In conclusion the heal crit and the massive heal crit bonuses were obtained from raid gear and NEEDED in raids in order to survive. In herioc instances however they were very much overkill and I can understand the reason behind the nerf. However in raid terms where mobs hit you for a lot harder this crit bonus was NEEDEDYou should rework all the paladin healing spells and AA lines in order to bring them more into scaling correctly against both raid and herioc content. As of right now what you have done is nerf paladins in raids because they were overpowered in group/pve/bg settings at TIMES.So... what do I suggest?First of all all the heals need to be less of a "need to spam" issue in order for the player experiance, somethign you can cast to increase your survibility but not needign to spam these abilities constantly in order to obtain the benefit from them.Secondly they need to be balanced and SCALE so they are as viable in raids as they are in herioc without making one of both overpowered.I shall draw your attention to the regenerating wards on blessing of the paladin as well as the group version on the crusader tree; they were perfectly in line in what a paladin was - a very small ward but one which was cast all the time - in essence it reduced damage by 250 but only every 5 seconds - a small but handy little ward which made us feel like real paladins again where we can do our job as we shoudl as well as "heal" at the same time.That is what we like - small healing bonuses that require little attention from us so we can contonue with the real role of tanking mobs.Suggestions:Holy AidChange to a 3-5 charge reactive heal with a SMALL damage reduction on for its duration.example current: 2,000-2,500 healSuggested reduction in heal to 5 charges of 200-250 with a 3% damage reduction. duration 30s recast 20s or somethingThe healing power reduced significantly but it has more "worth"; in herioc setting it will help out the healers but not make them redundant. In a raid setting it will reduce the massive damage spikes somewhat but at the same not make healers redundant and because it has a SMALL componant of damage reduction it will be cast regually for a minor healing power but mainly for the DR.SacramentIn all honesty no-one will miss this ability if it was to disappear altogether since it no longer crits. Instead remove it as a heal entirely and perhaps make it into a small HP buff, i.e. recast 5min increase max health by 5% for 30s and make all spells interuptable/cast on the move. Those are just a couple of random thoughts but hoenstly removing this ability is also in the mix - after the chage this won't appear on any paladins hotbar.PrayerYou should keep with the use I have and many others have to reduce the incoming damage on the GROUP in order to survive larger AoEs.Change its recast to 90s duration 15s - and have it "reduce all damage to group by 50% - if healer" so a paladin will work WITH the healers allowing them to survive far more powerful AoEs at close range. Similar to the guardian stoneskin ideal but more paladin (healer) helpful.You will gain same effect but not tred on healers toes by casting massive healing.Demonstration of FaithWe like the ward - we hate the casting time, it also generates most of our healing power. If you were to remove this spell completly from our hotbars paladin healing will halve. However I do not suggest anythgin as drastic - change it to : Increase mitigation of self against ALL damage by 2500 for 30s recast 60s and increase max health by 5%it still maintains our role of decreasing incoming damage spikes but it does not heal and removes it from the healing listLay on HandsChange to % based - that is all. Above all we want to heal.. but not spend all our time casting heals; work out exactly how much damage reduction you wish to give us by using heals and change our healing powers to act more like temp buffs granting a SMALLER heal benefit with a benefit that scales to the end game.I justposted a few suggestions I'm sure you can think of others. but if you send this change live without reviewing paladin heals you have effectivly nerfed our survibility in raids altering the fighter balance once more.

Marcusaval

07-28-2010, 09:28 AM

Just Like to say I don't support a major nerf of a class just because battelegrounds is not balanced take it away in battlegrounds if thats the issue dont ruin the game for the rest of the Paladins I have never played Pvp and feel greatly annoyed that such a lazy fix is carried out.If it has to happen then what are you going to do to restore our surviability?So much for consultation with players!

texmurphy

07-28-2010, 09:33 AM

QFEIF there is a need for a change, make it a useful one. BUT, at the moment I can't even see a reason, SOE! And the discussion on our server shows I'm not the only one; and I'm not the only one who's feeling is that especially Pallys get crippled once more without a reason.Our chance to heal is not some imba utility; it's one important aspect that defines our class. I'm NOT complaining that we don't mitigate as good as Guardians. I'm NOT whining that we don't do as much dps as SK's or Zerkers. I'm even not complaining that Inquis can do quite surprising dps while both healing and curing. But I do and will consider consequences if main aspects that made me choose that class are taken away, especially - as said before - if there's no need to do so.Seriously: will you consider taking melee crit chances from the auto attack of Inquis and Furies, too? No more crit chances for spells of any other classes than mages? I'd like to hear their reaction. It's even harder to understand why classes are nerfed while others are enhanced a lot. I don't see a reason to "give Guardians some love" as their primary idea was to take damage and not to give it. But, hey, why not; I don't feel "inferior" if other classes are "better" as long as my class is what I expect it to be and always loved for.Stop f...n around with classes that are not out of balance. There's a lot of work to be done that'd help the game and the community more than that.

Shareana

07-28-2010, 09:53 AM

Let's keep it on track please <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Thanks!

Rast

07-28-2010, 10:28 AM

I echo Jeal's request for a reason...

Jaale

07-28-2010, 10:39 AM

I would also ask for a reason. Not just a "it's not because of PVP or BG" because we want to know what it is for.

Gaer

07-28-2010, 12:05 PM

I think fellow paladins we can get around this, they are going to give us something. Instead of Legionnaire's Focus increasing healing crit bonus it will instead increase healing potency by x% (does 2% per point, so 16% with a total of 8 points) also with that if you trade 10 points in to get the increased Devout prayers (paladin tree) and Allied prayers (shadow tree last row) that would be a 15% increase in base healing for both normal heals on top of the 16% bonus. It will still give us a nice heal. Nothing like we have now, however, still something we can do.

Brynhild

07-28-2010, 01:24 PM

If the heal spell is based on MINISTRATION, it should CRIT, PERIOD.That's all they have to do. Only ministration spells should crit, not the others. That will solve all the issues.If they don't want to allow that, we better get 50% base crit bonus for melee, or something, or it's making the class a LOT less useful.Even in TSO I speced for heal crit. I had 50% heal crit back then which was working pretty well, SF made it better of course.With everyone having 25k HP, a 2k heal is kind of ridiculous. How about doubling the base heal amount of aid/prayer/loh/sac ? There are ways to make it useful again, but I prefer the ministration route (all ministration spells crit, others don't)

dropdahamma

07-28-2010, 02:29 PM

Well when you consolidate heal/melee/spell crit into simply crit, you run into issues where pallys rolling at 100% crit are critting their spells for a lot. Couple points to make here.1. Heals are supposed to be an integral part of a pally's surviability. Not allowing it to crit is tying one of our hands behind out backs. 2. So are you now going to remove melee crit from healers, since their DPS is too high? What about bards? I have high level of both class, so I am not asking for all around nerf bats. This is a continued fail architecture. Nerf one class, improve another, give nerfed abilities back at X point in the future. This is a really bad road to go down. You are telling hybrid classes that the way you are architecting them is through nerfs.Maybe should focus more on these types of issues and less on the F2P.

Obsidian

07-28-2010, 02:35 PM

+1 at jeal want to hear a reason for this nerf and how we are going to be compensated ....

Brynhild

07-28-2010, 03:16 PM

Well we know why it's happening, because zerkers and sk's are outhealing healers. Since paladins are half healer i don't really count them in this. They honestly should retain the heal crits on only their ministration spells. Like I said before in TSO I had 50% heal crit on the paladin, which was pretty nice. Due to the large HP gains, having 100% heal crit now is similar to having 50% in TSO so I don't see what the big deal is.Only thing I can think of is that since guardians have no heals at all, this is to help balance them out?Pally is already the lowest dps tank, which is made up for by the heals.From a PVP standpoint, every class now has tons of heals, procs, etc. even assassins. Are those going to be changed so they don't crit?

Felshades

07-28-2010, 04:15 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Imho this change is pretty much an outright nerf to paladin survibility.The heals a paladin gets should be altered/changed as this change reverts us back to the same issues we had preior to the stats consolidation where 90% of our healing power was uselessPaladin Aid (Single Target heal)This is a single target heal with a 1.5s (0.75s with AA) cast speed - in current game mechanics it is under used. With its fast recast you can spend a large portion of time spaming this in order to generate healing power. This is massively power intensive and takes paladins away from the role of tanking and into the role of healers.As of right now with it criting it has been used more as your "go to button" when you take a damage spike given it can crit quite high Once crits are removed especially for higher content this function is effectivly been rendered useless.Paladins do not *want* to spend all our time clicking this button it is an ineffective use of our time. the crit made it useful to deal with spike damage - it is now useless again.Prayer of HealingThis is perhaps my favourite spell of all, in its current state due to the high crit chance I was able to top up my group after an AoE hit allowing the healers in my group to cure first - this allowed my group to survive better and imho was the perfect paladin spell as it protected your entire group.With the crit chance removed the amount returned is making me rethink the red adorn and AA points I have invested in it. a heal of 2-3k to the group is laughable with the amount of health avaialble to people now.SacramentIt has always been our slowest heal, with the high crits it slipped nicely into a secondary lay on hands role of you damage spike and help the healers in putting you in the green again. The heal crit change means it has become useless once more - spending the inordinate amoutn of time casting for a mere 3-4k heal is pitaful - even on live I was often made green by the healers before this spell was even cast. This spell is rendered useless again.Lay On HandsThe recast on this means it isn't up all the time - and whilst it is better than it used to be having a heal of 12k when you are buffed up to well over 30k in a raid just doesn;t cut it. It has and never did scale correctly. this should have always been a % based heal which scales with the amount of health a paladin can get as the more geared you are the less and less useful this spell is.Demonstration of FaithThis will always be a sore point in terms of healing power as since its a ward it will always be removed first so all heal parses are inflated by it. but what those heal parses do not show is 1.5s casting speed (too slow when its a spell and interupts are not only frequent but expected) and for anythgin harder than the easiest instances its gone instantly.What crits gave this ward was a nice little boost so when you got slammed for a 36k double attack (2x 18k) the ward if it was up and full allowed you to survive what potentially you coudl have eaisly died from. Obviously crit bonus didn't not effect as other heals; but they did hep wioth what is often in raid fights pretty much a one shot deal.In conclusion the heal crit and the massive heal crit bonuses were obtained from raid gear and NEEDED in raids in order to survive. In herioc instances however they were very much overkill and I can understand the reason behind the nerf. However in raid terms where mobs hit you for a lot harder this crit bonus was NEEDEDYou should rework all the paladin healing spells and AA lines in order to bring them more into scaling correctly against both raid and herioc content. As of right now what you have done is nerf paladins in raids because they were overpowered in group/pve/bg settings at TIMES.So... what do I suggest?First of all all the heals need to be less of a "need to spam" issue in order for the player experiance, somethign you can cast to increase your survibility but not needign to spam these abilities constantly in order to obtain the benefit from them.Secondly they need to be balanced and SCALE so they are as viable in raids as they are in herioc without making one of both overpowered.I shall draw your attention to the regenerating wards on blessing of the paladin as well as the group version on the crusader tree; they were perfectly in line in what a paladin was - a very small ward but one which was cast all the time - in essence it reduced damage by 250 but only every 5 seconds - a small but handy little ward which made us feel like real paladins again where we can do our job as we shoudl as well as "heal" at the same time.That is what we like - small healing bonuses that require little attention from us so we can contonue with the real role of tanking mobs.Suggestions:Holy AidChange to a 3-5 charge reactive heal with a SMALL damage reduction on for its duration.example current: 2,000-2,500 healSuggested reduction in heal to 5 charges of 200-250 with a 3% damage reduction. duration 30s recast 20s or somethingThe healing power reduced significantly but it has more "worth"; in herioc setting it will help out the healers but not make them redundant. In a raid setting it will reduce the massive damage spikes somewhat but at the same not make healers redundant and because it has a SMALL componant of damage reduction it will be cast regually for a minor healing power but mainly for the DR.SacramentIn all honesty no-one will miss this ability if it was to disappear altogether since it no longer crits. Instead remove it as a heal entirely and perhaps make it into a small HP buff, i.e. recast 5min increase max health by 5% for 30s and make all spells interuptable/cast on the move. Those are just a couple of random thoughts but hoenstly removing this ability is also in the mix - after the chage this won't appear on any paladins hotbar.PrayerYou should keep with the use I have and many others have to reduce the incoming damage on the GROUP in order to survive larger AoEs.Change its recast to 90s duration 15s - and have it "reduce all damage to group by 50% - if healer" so a paladin will work WITH the healers allowing them to survive far more powerful AoEs at close range. Similar to the guardian stoneskin ideal but more paladin (healer) helpful.You will gain same effect but not tred on healers toes by casting massive healing.Demonstration of FaithWe like the ward - we hate the casting time, it also generates most of our healing power. If you were to remove this spell completly from our hotbars paladin healing will halve. However I do not suggest anythgin as drastic - change it to : Increase mitigation of self against ALL damage by 2500 for 30s recast 60s and increase max health by 5%it still maintains our role of decreasing incoming damage spikes but it does not heal and removes it from the healing listLay on HandsChange to % based - that is all. Above all we want to heal.. but not spend all our time casting heals; work out exactly how much damage reduction you wish to give us by using heals and change our healing powers to act more like temp buffs granting a SMALLER heal benefit with a benefit that scales to the end game.I justposted a few suggestions I'm sure you can think of others. but if you send this change live without reviewing paladin heals you have effectivly nerfed our survibility in raids altering the fighter balance once more.</blockquote>The changes you are suggesting would entirely kill my ability to solo some of the content I currently do while levelling. Your changes are based upon what happens at the level cap in raid gear, and that isn't all of the content this game encompasses.I can see wanting to make them useful at end game, that is fine. But don't have them totally wreck the heals that I rely on to survive while levelling just so that they're useful in raids, when you shouldn't need to be healing yourself.Lay on hands going to a percentage based thing would just influence Paladins to stack stamina if they have to cast it on other players. It being a percentage of the paladin's health would just encourage higher HP pools so that it heals for more on others. I almost never cast this anyways as it is; not sure if it changes later on.Demonstration of Faith I cast before I pull. I generally don't recast in the middle of the fight, though I probably should. I don't have an issue with the cast time. I can't speak for endgame on it however.I use sacrament on cooldown while levelling. In groups and solo. It's a rather nice sized heal with a CD. I wish the CD was lower myself but I can't do much about that right now.I do not want to be expected to rely on my own heals in raids, or even in groups unless an oh crap moment happens. That's why we have healer classes. I do not want the spells changed just to make them useful in situations were I honestly think they should not even be relevant. If you NEED to self heal with healing spells as a tank then they should rethink how the class's tanking mechanics work, defense mechanics. SKs have lifetaps, but the lifetap has a secondary function being damage and damage = threat. Threat isnt a factor in paladin heals, it's pretty negligible as far as I've seen.Again, this being my opinion as a levelling paladin, please rethink trying to form the game around content that only caters to the more hardcore raiders and leaves those of us that are levelling and will likely not be raiding shafted.

Stalack

07-28-2010, 04:43 PM

This directly targets Paladin. It takes away our class definition. It is an intellectually lazy way to try and balance classes. Guardians need some love true, but this does not address the core problem. Allowing one class to dictate the direction of all classes is foolish. Bottom line and what is important to SOE, this will cause you to loose subscriptions a lot of subscriptions.

Seomon

07-28-2010, 07:51 PM

This is beyond stupid.

Seomon

07-28-2010, 07:53 PM

If this actually goes through, I'd support all healers DPS attacks not being able to crit, all scouts autoattack not critting, and all casters being capped at 50% potency and 10% crit bonus. Oh, and all Guardians/Zerker taunts not critting.

dropdahamma

07-28-2010, 08:20 PM

<cite>Brynhild wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well we know why it's happening, because zerkers and sk's are outhealing healers. Since paladins are half healer i don't really count them in this. They honestly should retain the heal crits on only their ministration spells. Like I said before in TSO I had 50% heal crit on the paladin, which was pretty nice. Due to the large HP gains, having 100% heal crit now is similar to having 50% in TSO so I don't see what the big deal is.Only thing I can think of is that since guardians have no heals at all, this is to help balance them out?Pally is already the lowest dps tank, which is made up for by the heals.From a PVP standpoint, every class now has tons of heals, procs, etc. even assassins. Are those going to be changed so they don't crit? </blockquote> My troub consistantly outhealed druids in TSO, and that was fine apparently. So you consider the DPS disparity a non issue with Guards and Zerks DW'ing and Crusaders being stuck with sword and board? (2H Weps pretty crap)Thats balanced when a zerk is doing 30k + turns on adrenaline and just destroys everything?This change is directly for PVP and BG's which was never supposed to bleed over into PVE. This is a terrible change that is probablly left over crap from the original fighter revamp.SOE made the decision to consolidate crit, making the choice between DPS/Healz/Tank gear unneeded. Now we are going to live with their bad choice in diretion.

Boli32

07-28-2010, 08:54 PM

<cite>Satyrna@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><snip></blockquote>The changes you are suggesting would entirely kill my ability to solo some of the content I currently do while levelling. Your changes are based upon what happens at the level cap in raid gear, and that isn't all of the content this game encompasses.I can see wanting to make them useful at end game, that is fine. But don't have them totally wreck the heals that I rely on to survive while levelling just so that they're useful in raids, when you shouldn't need to be healing yourself.Lay on hands going to a percentage based thing would just influence Paladins to stack stamina if they have to cast it on other players. It being a percentage of the paladin's health would just encourage higher HP pools so that it heals for more on others. I almost never cast this anyways as it is; not sure if it changes later on.Demonstration of Faith I cast before I pull. I generally don't recast in the middle of the fight, though I probably should. I don't have an issue with the cast time. I can't speak for endgame on it however.I use sacrament on cooldown while levelling. In groups and solo. It's a rather nice sized heal with a CD. I wish the CD was lower myself but I can't do much about that right now.I do not want to be expected to rely on my own heals in raids, or even in groups unless an oh crap moment happens. That's why we have healer classes. I do not want the spells changed just to make them useful in situations were I honestly think they should not even be relevant. If you NEED to self heal with healing spells as a tank then they should rethink how the class's tanking mechanics work, defense mechanics. SKs have lifetaps, but the lifetap has a secondary function being damage and damage = threat. Threat isnt a factor in paladin heals, it's pretty negligible as far as I've seen.Again, this being my opinion as a levelling paladin, please rethink trying to form the game around content that only caters to the more hardcore raiders and leaves those of us that are levelling and will likely not be raiding shafted.</blockquote>Soloing the incoming damage is a joke even in treasured gear all the way to 90; get decent gear and you can roompull a lot of content even solo without hitting a single heal. Not many classes can do it.Where heals are needed is for herioc content you are trying to solo as a paladin. changing the heals to be buffs and reactive heals - small regenerating wards % chance to proc heals for a short duration reguardless remove the constant need for heal spam which is what we have to do if the heals are too small... which without a crit ARE.I gave many suggestions to help BALANCE the heals against solo and raid situatons, small heals for small damage and small damage reduction of health gain for raid just giving paladins a 2k heal on 1.5s cast and 5s recast doesn't cut it. you spend all yoru time spamming a single heal in order to reduce the damage to an acceptable level in order to survive content which is not only a seveave power drain (somethign you have no doubt come across whlist soloing) but also none productive if you want to defeat the enemy.I can assure you if a 2.5k heal was changed to a 10 shot reactive of 250 health each you would find it *far* easier to solo. As for sacrment and Lay on Hands - they bascially both fufil the same role - an "oh crap" heal - without a crit Sacrment is just takes too long to cast and interupts are a problem.The group heal... we have a GROUP HEAL - a GROUP heal... that is what drives me nuts the most... its like giving a scout a melee Attack and deciding that particualr melee attack is not allowed to crit. We have FIVE heals, one of which is a group and obviously designed to help in a group setting keeping the rest of the group alive and now five of our abilities are not allowed to crit it is beyond a joke.I have given up trying to change SoE's mind so I am thinking more along the lines of "you're prob not gonna give us an answer why you designed to outright nerf our defensive capabilities - healing of which unless we spam generally heals us LESS than zerkers and SK fyi. however we will feel the pinch worse. for once major reason... heals are not generally part of our cast order as they take too long to cast / need to be recast a LOT, pretty much one shot - no duration evne the ward at level 14 is a one/two shot affair.At the end of the day whilst they are screwing us over they might as well take a look to give us "heal like" abilities which are useful and effective aross ALL TIERS of the game.

Morgue

07-28-2010, 09:08 PM

Boli32, while I think your offering a good alternative to the current state, I played a zerker for a long time, and if you remember we have a reactive heal. It was buffed then severly nerfed during beta for TSO. Having finally freed myself from raiding, I have the time to play the toon i always wanted: the paladin, now I hope they do not go and change the class completely. As a point, I do think your on a good track Boli.-samous

Seomon

07-28-2010, 10:20 PM

There should be no alternative. It should just not get implemented, period.

Morgue

07-28-2010, 10:42 PM

<cite>Seomon wrote:</cite><blockquote>There should be no alternative. It should just not get implemented, period.</blockquote>I agree, but if this does happen melee priest should suffer the same fate for melee crits. Even though the main issue is not with current mechanic, the real issue is less then exceptional implementation of mechanics. What I mean is basically the numbers game is so high in EQ2 at this time that, criticals cause results to be far beyond what would be productive for the game design.

Obadiah

07-28-2010, 11:29 PM

<cite>Seomon wrote:</cite><blockquote>If this actually goes through, I'd support all healers DPS attacks not being able to crit, all scouts autoattack not critting, and all casters being capped at 50% potency and 10% crit bonus. Oh, and all Guardians/Zerker taunts not critting.</blockquote>The scary thing is thinking that may not be far behind.Sorry to be a Zerk butt-in-ski, but I noticed that while I - as a Zerk - on Test still have the ability to heal crit, each specific ability now says "This ability cannot be critically applied". As I have opined elsewhere I would think this gives the option of allowing certain heals for certain classes to still crit. More specifically, I have stated I think it makes sense for Paladin heals to continue to crit.Does anyone know for sure whether this is the case on Test?

Kindagger

07-29-2010, 01:22 AM

I play this game for fun and I am usually in a 3 person group(at most). My friends live around the world and we have guilded together since early eq1. My eq2 account became active the day the game was released and I think it may be time to move on. If they take critical heals from my paladin that takes away a lot of the fun I have. I'm the only one with heals and sometimes it is hard to win in a good dungeon outing. It might sound silly to all the raiders around here, but we are just a few old pals wandering around and doing things that sound good at the time. Take away my critical heals and my account will close.

Wurm

07-29-2010, 02:45 AM

Lets not ask other classes get nerfed in our disgust, fellow Knights of the Light.Now +1 to hearing a valid reason why this is being done instead of adjusting the numbers down a bit instead.*edit* And I'd love for Boli's ideas to go through, I doubt however anyone over "there" has that much foresight though.

fmarz

07-29-2010, 03:49 AM

SOE dont take heal crits from us!!! thats half of my class!!!

texmurphy

07-29-2010, 04:00 AM

There's an easy way to make it better: just make separate crit mods for melee, spells and heals... oh, wait! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" />@Shareana: this IS the track!- SOE modifies a class-defining aspect- SOE does NOT show us a reason- while other classes are enhanced, our's get seriously nerfedWhat do you expect us to be, happy? Come on...

aislynn00

07-29-2010, 08:02 AM

<cite>texmurphy wrote:</cite><blockquote>- SOE modifies a class-defining aspect- SOE does NOT show us a reason</blockquote>If you check the dev tracker, you will note that Xelgad already posted the rationale for this particular change.<blockquote>- while other classes are enhanced, our's get seriously nerfed</blockquote>When one plate tank class is seriously underpowered (takes more damage over time, can't heal, deals much less DPS, has the lowest hate generation, and sports the weakest utility) and the remaining plate tanks are way too buff for the good of the game (being able to do heroic tier 9 instances without a healer ought to tell you something is broken), what did you expect? Another power boost to exacerbate the issue even further?

Wurm

07-29-2010, 08:54 AM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>texmurphy wrote:</cite><blockquote>- SOE modifies a class-defining aspect- SOE does NOT show us a reason</blockquote>If you check the dev tracker, you will note that Xelgad already posted the rationale for this particular change.<blockquote>- while other classes are enhanced, our's get seriously nerfed</blockquote>When one plate tank class is seriously underpowered (takes more damage over time, can't heal, deals much less DPS, has the lowest hate generation, and sports the weakest utility) and the remaining plate tanks are way too buff for the good of the game (being able to do heroic tier 9 instances without a healer ought to tell you something is broken), what did you expect? Another power boost to exacerbate the issue even further?</blockquote>We expected them to fix the Guardians and not nerf us. Is that concept so hard to understand?*edit* And I see you are another one of those people confusing gear with skill. Most players do not have the gear to do T9 heroic instances without a healer. You people need to stop with that line of BS.

Loxus

07-29-2010, 10:29 AM

The problem here isn't that paladins are overpowered, it's that the gear itemization is a complete travisty. No one, and I mean no one class should be able to reach, let alone surpass 100% crit ability, even with the best raid gear. I mean seriously, if it's that easy to obtain, what's the point of it? Moreover you throw in crit bonuses and potency reaching 50-75 percentile marks; of course our heals are going to go nuts.They need to nerf the gear, not the classes.I mean think about it, with everyone above 100% crit, and at the least 40% potency and crit bonus what do they expect to do with it next expansion?! Give us double crits? double potency? The did the exact same thing in the Velious expansion in EQ. The gear from Kunark to Velious was such a steep incline they had to add other stats to gear to normalize it again and we are seeing this agian in EQ2 with the addition of Crit mit, crit chance etc, what's next really? Endurance Crititcal mitigational potency?Put the nerfs where they belong, on the gear, not the classes. But you won't do that will you, because SOE has time to go back and rehash that much old expantion data with the deadline of the expantion that Smokejumper dropped on the them. So instead of doing the "right" thing they are going to take the easy way out and break the class. Which means the cycle overpowered/nerf - complain/overpowered/nerf-complain will continue in it's full glory. We're just the next in line.Albert Einstein said it best - The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Honestly, if the devs truly want to turn the game around into the world-leading MMO you need to stop with the firefighting of problems because of time restraints and fix the problems at the root of the problem, not the symptoms of the problem. Otherwise you are destioned to fail. It's about setting yourselves up for Achievement of success and not for failure avoidance.Furthermore, I know this isn't your choice method Xelad, and you're just "following orders". I still hold no ill-will to you or your work, but it's the wrong method. Eitherway, Thank you for your efforts Sir.

Gaer

07-29-2010, 12:48 PM

Okay got the post for those of us who do not know where to look. The reason why. This is located in the development corner/in testing feedback in a thread like this one.<div><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fighter heals have gotten a bit out of hand this expansion, and the primary cause has been stat consolidation combined with the high amount of Crit Bonus available. Most healing abilities are balanced with damage reduction abilities from other classes, and since those abilities have nothing similar to a critical, we end up with a significant problem as players progress their characters. For example, the Guardian Advancement "Last Man Standing" was balanced against the Berserker Advancement "Battle Frenzy." Those abilities seemed fine at the beginning of the expansion, but when you add 70 additional Crit Bonus to Battle Frenzy with nothing to offset that gain for Last Man Standing, the balance is lost.Stoneskin abilities can improve with:<ul><li>Casting speed</li><li>Reuse speed</li><li>Incoming damage</li></ul> Healing abilities can improve with:<ul><li>Casting speed</li><li>Reuse speed</li><li>Potency</li><li>Ability Modifier (or Max Health for percentage based heals)</li><li>Crit Bonus</li></ul> Potency and Ability Modifier (or max health, if the heal is percentage based) can still be used to improve heals to offset the scaling damage reduction abilities get from increased incoming damage, but critical fighter heals were breaking that balance. Note that heals should still be at least as powerful for the vast majority of fighters compared to where they would have been if we had not consolidated stats. We're just correcting a balancing and scaling issue caused by stat consolidation, not reducing the effectiveness of heals beyond that.As far as Lifetap spells, only the heal component is affected by this change. The damage component will still critically hit.<div></div></blockquote></div>

Brynhild

07-29-2010, 01:32 PM

If they do this, then paladins need 150% base melee crit bonus, and SK needs 150% base spell crit bonus.Since the heal crit bonuses won't do anything, and all the other fighters have 150% base crit bonus for melee.

Theren

07-29-2010, 01:41 PM

just checked some stuff out on test and they need to either redo all of our heals into abilities like boli said or remove paladins from this nerf. we're the healing tank for god's sake. always have been always should be. if anyone should be able to keep themselves alive long enough for a healer to be rezzed on a near wipe on toxx (or insert hardmode mob here) it should be the HEALING tank.....As it is now, our heals won't do a blasted thing in terms of survivability this is just very frustrating to me....

dropdahamma

07-29-2010, 08:32 PM

I would like to understand how this decision was made? I mean is there a vision for the classes, or is it all whatever is easiest to do? Please quit QQ'ing about tanking instances with no healer. That is a gear issue. Group setup also plays a part. When I 2box with my troub, that makes a huge difference in my heal output. With someone tanking the library with no healer, I say that tank has average to decent gear. Is it possible that the difficulty level for instances like Library and just stupid easy? I mean think back to when RoK came out. No one was soloing that content in legendary gear. It seems with this expansion most of the zones have been offered up on a platter in ezmode. My pally is rolling in decent TSO raid gear(not my main during TSO) and is having no difficulty in these zones. I think the problem lies in itemization and craptastic easy zones.I also support the ideas mentioned earlier. I would also be insupport of a damage ward in place of one of our heals. I want to be reasonable, but simply disabling a component of the mechanics is ludicrous.

aislynn00

07-30-2010, 07:58 AM

<cite>dropdahamma wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please quit QQ'ing about tanking instances with no healer. That is a gear issue.</blockquote>Really? My guardian is wearing three tier 3 armor pieces and the rest tier 2. All jewelry and accessories are current tier fabled. I have MT'ed raids since before DoF came out and I'm still doing so. To put it very mildly, I know how to get the most out of my class. The character has 250 AA and is fully mastered.My paladin was created during TSO. He is wearing one tier 3 armor piece and two tier 1 armor pieces. His jewelry and accessories are mostly legendary, with one or two modest fabled pieces. He has something like 220 AA points and two masters. Most of the remaining spells/CA's are Expert, with three being from the previous tier--I just haven't gotten around to upgrading them.When doing the SF signature quest, which I got started on only recently, I tried duoing the ring event at the bottom of the Hole that is required as the first heroic step in that quest (my wife was playing an illusionist). Complete failure. I couldn't even kill the add waves before the named. My wife then brought in her defiler instead, and we were fine.Then I did the same with my paladin, wearing primarily quest and instance gear, with more than 30 less AA. No challenge to it. I self-healed through the whole thing, named and initial waves, and even kept the illusionist standing when she was hit by AE's.Examples like that--and I have loads--should be more than enough proof that the survivability imbalances within the fighter archetypes aren't gear-based.For the record, my DPS was actually higher with my guardian while I was still alive--because of of his vastly superior gear, AA's, and master status--as it should have been. That, however, doesn't really matter when the supposedly toughest tank in the game can't survive content that was almost trivial to an under-geared paladin.

aislynn00

07-30-2010, 08:14 AM

<cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>texmurphy wrote:</cite><blockquote>- SOE modifies a class-defining aspect- SOE does NOT show us a reason</blockquote>If you check the dev tracker, you will note that Xelgad already posted the rationale for this particular change.<blockquote>- while other classes are enhanced, our's get seriously nerfed</blockquote>When one plate tank class is seriously underpowered (takes more damage over time, can't heal, deals much less DPS, has the lowest hate generation, and sports the weakest utility) and the remaining plate tanks are way too buff for the good of the game (being able to do heroic tier 9 instances without a healer ought to tell you something is broken), what did you expect? Another power boost to exacerbate the issue even further?</blockquote>We expected them to fix the Guardians and not nerf us. Is that concept so hard to understand?</blockquote>Fix guardians? Sure, our class has its share of issues: We could use some more hate generation when using a shield, our debuffs don't do jack, our utility isn't particularly great, and 40% of our EoF AA abilities are pointless. But all that notwithstanding, we are still able to tank and do our job, so we aren't actually broken.Now, what is truly broken is the balance between guardians and the rest of the plate tanks. Or to paraphrase, the classes that need "fixing" are berserkers, shadowknights, and paladins, because those classes are so far beyond where they should be in DPS and survivability that it stopped being funny a long time ago.No, you are not supposed to be anywhere close to a tier 2 in DPS in any setting, including AE encounters. No, even wearing hard-mode gear, you are not supposed to be able to heal yourself through any instance that an equivalently geared guardian can't do without a healer--and no, the answer isn't to give guardians self-heals; it is to nerf tank healing and survivability until every tank needs a healer in order to do heroic content.

Morgue

07-30-2010, 12:27 PM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>texmurphy wrote:</cite><blockquote>- SOE modifies a class-defining aspect- SOE does NOT show us a reason</blockquote>If you check the dev tracker, you will note that Xelgad already posted the rationale for this particular change.<blockquote>- while other classes are enhanced, our's get seriously nerfed</blockquote>When one plate tank class is seriously underpowered (takes more damage over time, can't heal, deals much less DPS, has the lowest hate generation, and sports the weakest utility) and the remaining plate tanks are way too buff for the good of the game (being able to do heroic tier 9 instances without a healer ought to tell you something is broken), what did you expect? Another power boost to exacerbate the issue even further?</blockquote>We expected them to fix the Guardians and not nerf us. Is that concept so hard to understand?</blockquote>Fix guardians? Sure, our class has its share of issues: We could use some more hate generation when using a shield, our debuffs don't do jack, our utility isn't particularly great, and 40% of our EoF AA abilities are pointless. But all that notwithstanding, we are still able to tank and do our job, so we aren't actually broken.Now, what is truly broken is the balance between guardians and the rest of the plate tanks. Or to paraphrase, the classes that need "fixing" are berserkers, shadowknights, and paladins, because those classes are so far beyond where they should be in DPS and survivability that it stopped being funny a long time ago.No, you are not supposed to be anywhere close to a tier 2 in DPS in any setting, including AE encounters. No, even wearing hard-mode gear, you are not supposed to be able to heal yourself through any instance that an equivalently geared guardian can't do without a healer--and no, the answer isn't to give guardians self-heals; it is to nerf tank healing and survivability until every tank needs a healer in order to do heroic content.</blockquote>Your response is the problem, nerfing solves nothing. What it does do is put a temporary fix on a current issue, but what remains is an underlieing problem with stats that are out of control.

dropdahamma

07-30-2010, 06:41 PM

dropdahamma

07-30-2010, 06:41 PM

Double Post FTL

Coho1

07-30-2010, 06:48 PM

Healers shouldn't melee crit..<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" />

dropdahamma

07-30-2010, 06:50 PM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dropdahamma wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please quit QQ'ing about tanking instances with no healer. That is a gear issue.</blockquote>Really? My guardian is wearing three tier 3 armor pieces and the rest tier 2. All jewelry and accessories are current tier fabled. I have MT'ed raids since before DoF came out and I'm still doing so. To put it very mildly, I know how to get the most out of my class. The character has 250 AA and is fully mastered.My paladin was created during TSO. He is wearing one tier 3 armor piece and two tier 1 armor pieces. His jewelry and accessories are mostly legendary, with one or two modest fabled pieces. He has something like 220 AA points and two masters. Most of the remaining spells/CA's are Expert, with three being from the previous tier--I just haven't gotten around to upgrading them.When doing the SF signature quest, which I got started on only recently, I tried duoing the ring event at the bottom of the Hole that is required as the first heroic step in that quest (my wife was playing an illusionist). Complete failure. I couldn't even kill the add waves before the named. My wife then brought in her defiler instead, and we were fine.Then I did the same with my paladin, wearing primarily quest and instance gear, with more than 30 less AA. No challenge to it. I self-healed through the whole thing, named and initial waves, and even kept the illusionist standing when she was hit by AE's.Examples like that--and I have loads--should be more than enough proof that the survivability imbalances within the fighter archetypes aren't gear-based.For the record, my DPS was actually higher with my guardian while I was still alive--because of of his vastly superior gear, AA's, and master status--as it should have been. That, however, doesn't really matter when the supposedly toughest tank in the game can't survive content that was almost trivial to an under-geared paladin.</blockquote>So your point is, when you roll a tank that has very limited healing ability, you failed, and your wife can't mez. So were you DW'ing with your [Removed for Content] out guard and not using a shield like a crusader does? Did your pally have PoM? what about Time Compression? Your cherry picking your arguement here. Thats like saying I can't keep aggro because hate sucks on a guard, but I brought in a zerker with a dirge an no problems. Pally + Illy = TOUGH DUO.I roll a troub and a pally. Pretty much the same thing. UT on pally and he heals like a madman. Picking one sentence out of post and QQ'ing on it is fail. Please read the next sentence where I say that it also depends on group setup.

Stonecut

07-31-2010, 05:02 AM

This proposed change reminds me of the time brawlers' feign death was "fixed" so that the recast wouldn't start until you actually got up from your first feign death.There was an enormous outcry from the brawler community and for good reason since it amounted to basically kicking brawlers in the teeth when they already sorely needed some positive changes.While paladins are not in the same desperate position as brawlers were when they received an ill-advised nerf to a crucial class component, we nevertheless are being hit with our own version of the "feign death" nerf in the form of this change to fighter critical heals.Folks have already refuted the given rationale for the change. Stat consolidation combined with poor gear design led to this problem of critical healing (which, to my mind, has never been a problem). The solution lies not in changing how critical values apply to fighter healing but in the way gear is designed and distributed. Perhaps an argument can be made regarding selective application of this change to non-ministration heals (I think that would be a possible compromise) but your solution as it stands today basically renders paladin heals worthless, especially in a raid context.Nevermind that the healing branch in the paladin tree was already remarkably underwhelming to begin with, now it'll be hard to justify a single point spent in it. I would submit that most paladins that have written here and play generally would agree that the heals are a defining aspect of the class and an important reason why we enjoy playing a paladin. I feel those heals are purchased with appreciable sacrifices to dps and ought to be enhanced rather than reduced. I concur with many of Jael's suggestions, notably the heal reactive. I would add the following as well:1) Overhaul the healing branch in the Paladin tree by adding potency buffs on top of casting speed buffs to many of the existing AA choices (prayers of healing, holy aid, demonstration of faith)2) Add a casting speed buff to the Demonstration of Faith AA or make an "Alternative:Group Demonstration of Faith" that converts DoF's ward into a collective group one (on the same timer as the single target DoF). This way you can choose to add a small bit of survivability to your raid group for aoes or you can use the single ward for yourself when MTing or for the MT when you are not.3) Scrap the endline "Arch Healing" and replace it either with a Self-ward or a group-ward. Again, raid utility can be realized with a group ward capable of soaking a small portion of aoes or with a self-ward that can bolster MT/OT survivability. Maybe a reactive like Jael suggested could be a suitable replacement as well.4) Add an "Enhanced: Devout Sacrament" AA which adds a temporary max hp increase, mitigation buff or a small percentage-based dmg reduction after the heal once you cast the spell. Perhaps 3-5 seconds per rank.In conclusion, I strongly believe this proposed change to fighter heal crits, at least from the perspective of paladins, is almost universally opposed. There is some room for negotiation regarding the exemption of ministration-based healing spells but it should be clear that this solution, in principle, will likely wreck serious harm on a class-defining component of the paladin class. Additionally, consideration should be given to revamping the healing branch in the paladin tree because it offers little that any paladin would want and even less so if the proposed change is implemented.

Dart56

07-31-2010, 04:01 PM

Maybe I missed this in all the posts, but furthermore this completed screws over our death save, does it not? While every class has some sort of death save that puts them to 100% health when they die, we are stuck with a moot 42-50% heal, with 1 trigger. Brawlers get 2 100% heal death saves via SF endline now, SKs are getting 2, if not 3 bloodletters depending on their gear, Guardians have exploding heart with no death via AAs that heals for 100% health, and I have no idea what zerkers get, but I am sure it is another 100% heal on death or something stupidly overpowered that heals themselves as well(besides exploding heart).So where does that put Paladins? Still shafted with this heal crit nerf. While we do have good survivability, I still find myself getting 1 shotted by mobs like Arkatanthis who hit me for 37k+ after a few good rounds of attacks that break through my wards, instantly killing me. with my 36k hps. So now I am going to get healed back up to 50% health only, rather than potentially critting back to 100% health, and risking the chance of getting completely annihilated by the named, especially if the benthic adds are up.This sounds like amazingly great work in the process, please keep up the amount of suck this update looks like it will have for us.

Dimgl

07-31-2010, 11:27 PM

I just ran some tests on test server and my healing is nerfed on average between 47 and 52%.I am wearing a mix of raid gear and PVP gear.It is pretty hideous.I also tested all of our new animations. If you'd like to read about them, then here: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=75&topic_id=483494#5378465" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...=483494#5378465</a>

Jeal

08-01-2010, 08:45 AM

awesome feedback there sir.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> oh yeah.. our heals are terrible.. i still wanna know why :/

Boethius_Permafrost

08-01-2010, 10:11 AM

This sounds discouraging. This may push me offline. Someone said there is more info on a "dev tracker"? What's that?

EdrickOfFayspire

08-01-2010, 06:45 PM

<cite>Brynhild wrote:</cite><blockquote>If they do this, then paladins need 150% base melee crit bonus, and SK needs 150% base spell crit bonus.Since the heal crit bonuses won't do anything, and all the other fighters have 150% base crit bonus for melee.</blockquote>I would go beyond this, because crusaders use a blend of CA and spells both of these crit bonuses should be boosted to 150%, after all every other fighter type gets the 150% bonus on all their arts seeing as they are strictly CA based.Every other fighter type is also given the option to dual wield 1 handed weapons, make it fair and allow crusaders to dual wield as well. We also are not allowed to use all the weapon types such as Guardians and Berserkers, I imagine we should get these too since again you are seriously hindering one of the main purposes of our class.The truth is by removing a Paladin's ability to heal a reasonable amount you are removing what seperates that fighter type from the other fighters. Continuing actions like this will result in little more than making all fighters the exact same class, you might as well just make one class called "Fighter" that is the only avaliable tank offered by the game. In a few years you could do the same with all classes and and only have 4 class types, wouldn't that make the game that much more diverse...

Kahling

08-01-2010, 08:41 PM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dropdahamma wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please quit QQ'ing about tanking instances with no healer. That is a gear issue.</blockquote>Really? My guardian is wearing three tier 3 armor pieces and the rest tier 2. All jewelry and accessories are current tier fabled. I have MT'ed raids since before DoF came out and I'm still doing so. To put it very mildly, I know how to get the most out of my class. The character has 250 AA and is fully mastered.My paladin was created during TSO. He is wearing one tier 3 armor piece and two tier 1 armor pieces. His jewelry and accessories are mostly legendary, with one or two modest fabled pieces. He has something like 220 AA points and two masters. Most of the remaining spells/CA's are Expert, with three being from the previous tier--I just haven't gotten around to upgrading them.When doing the SF signature quest, which I got started on only recently, I tried duoing the ring event at the bottom of the Hole that is required as the first heroic step in that quest (my wife was playing an illusionist). Complete failure. I couldn't even kill the add waves before the named. My wife then brought in her defiler instead, and we were fine.Then I did the same with my paladin, wearing primarily quest and instance gear, with more than 30 less AA. No challenge to it. I self-healed through the whole thing, named and initial waves, and even kept the illusionist standing when she was hit by AE's.Examples like that--and I have loads--should be more than enough proof that the survivability imbalances within the fighter archetypes aren't gear-based.For the record, my DPS was actually higher with my guardian while I was still alive--because of of his vastly superior gear, AA's, and master status--as it should have been. That, however, doesn't really matter when the supposedly toughest tank in the game can't survive content that was almost trivial to an under-geared paladin.</blockquote>No offence but isnt this a bit like comparing apples and oranges.The Paladin can heal, so if you are duoing with any classes and the two of them are not healers then if the damage output is greater than your HP you are going to die.A Paladin can heal, not as well as a healer but they can heal, so they can handle mob's doing more than 100% of their damage by design.Doesnt matter what gear you have none of the other tank classes have the direct heals of a Paladin, so if you go in without a healer and the mob has the potential to do over 100% of your damage then you are going to die.This nerf is going to hit Paladins mainly, and it should not go in just because the other classes are designed differently, and if there is an imbalance in survivorbility when you have a sensible approach to a mob (IE take a healer) then the other tanks should be improved, nerfs are bad for bussiness personally.This class difference can be applied to every class in game btw, troubadores/Dirges are not as good soloers by design compared with some classes but I chuffing love them in raids/groups.LET THE CLASSES BE DIFFERENT, if you have a problem fix it with +'s to other classes, not unwarranted nerfs!

Boli32

08-02-2010, 09:58 AM

To any developers reading this thread. I, and I think the entire paladin community have one major question:Given the removal of critical heals for paladin; are paladin heals now "working as intended" or are you going address a paladin's healing capability?With the loss of crits, combied with the high health of paladins and the low healing amounts our FOUR of our spells (direct heals) have been SIGNIFICANTLY reduced in power.. sometimes as much as 30% of their pre critting value.Paladin is cited as "the tank who heals"; yet our heals are no longer anything like what they should be. I have suggested they be reworked into short term buffs with healing power rather than our directs - but right now the direct heals without a crit are not worth casting and are they going to be reworked?

seamus

08-02-2010, 12:10 PM

<cite>Stonecut wrote:</cite><blockquote>This proposed change reminds me of the time brawlers' feign death was "fixed" so that the recast wouldn't start until you actually got up from your first feign death.There was an enormous outcry from the brawler community and for good reason since it amounted to basically kicking brawlers in the teeth when they already sorely needed some positive changes.While paladins are not in the same desperate position as brawlers were when they received an ill-advised nerf to a crucial class component, we nevertheless are being hit with our own version of the "feign death" nerf in the form of this change to fighter critical heals.Folks have already refuted the given rationale for the change. Stat consolidation combined with poor gear design led to this problem of critical healing (which, to my mind, has never been a problem). The solution lies not in changing how critical values apply to fighter healing but in the way gear is designed and distributed. Perhaps an argument can be made regarding selective application of this change to non-ministration heals (I think that would be a possible compromise) but your solution as it stands today basically renders paladin heals worthless, especially in a raid context.Nevermind that the healing branch in the paladin tree was already remarkably underwhelming to begin with, now it'll be hard to justify a single point spent in it. I would submit that most paladins that have written here and play generally would agree that the heals are a defining aspect of the class and an important reason why we enjoy playing a paladin. I feel those heals are purchased with appreciable sacrifices to dps and ought to be enhanced rather than reduced. I concur with many of Jael's suggestions, notably the heal reactive. I would add the following as well:1) Overhaul the healing branch in the Paladin tree by adding potency buffs on top of casting speed buffs to many of the existing AA choices (prayers of healing, holy aid, demonstration of faith)2) Add a casting speed buff to the Demonstration of Faith AA or make an "Alternative:Group Demonstration of Faith" that converts DoF's ward into a collective group one (on the same timer as the single target DoF). This way you can choose to add a small bit of survivability to your raid group for aoes or you can use the single ward for yourself when MTing or for the MT when you are not.3) Scrap the endline "Arch Healing" and replace it either with a Self-ward or a group-ward. Again, raid utility can be realized with a group ward capable of soaking a small portion of aoes or with a self-ward that can bolster MT/OT survivability. Maybe a reactive like Jael suggested could be a suitable replacement as well.4) Add an "Enhanced: Devout Sacrament" AA which adds a temporary max hp increase, mitigation buff or a small percentage-based dmg reduction after the heal once you cast the spell. Perhaps 3-5 seconds per rank.In conclusion, I strongly believe this proposed change to fighter heal crits, at least from the perspective of paladins, is almost universally opposed. There is some room for negotiation regarding the exemption of ministration-based healing spells but it should be clear that this solution, in principle, will likely wreck serious harm on a class-defining component of the paladin class. Additionally, consideration should be given to revamping the healing branch in the paladin tree because it offers little that any paladin would want and even less so if the proposed change is implemented.</blockquote>I agree with most of your sentiment. I play SK, Pal and Zerker. This nerf effects Pal and Zerker much more then it does SK's. (I actually believe the heal portion of taps can't crit already.)They can't just apply this nerf across the board and not make adjustments. Crits are the only thing that make Pal heals worth casting. They are very power inefficient. At the least adjusments to cast speed and power consumption need to be applied.

Yimway

08-02-2010, 06:45 PM

<cite>Kemt@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just ran some tests on test server and my healing is nerfed on average between 47 and 52%.</blockquote>Are you suggesting there is content you can't do with that change?

Bruener

08-02-2010, 08:08 PM

Boli32

08-02-2010, 08:14 PM

Landiin

08-03-2010, 12:36 AM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kemt@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just ran some tests on test server and my healing is nerfed on average between 47 and 52%.</blockquote>Are you suggesting there is content you can't do with that change?</blockquote>Not the point... hey a new guard nerf coming in soon.. nerfing all your stuff you use to survive agro by 30-50% in order to help with reactive heals.. how do you feel?</blockquote>Umm agro is not the same as heals but what ever. You don't need your heals doing as much as they did to make up for the deferential in survivability and that is what yoru heals are for. You will still be able to tank just maybe not as easy to heal any more.

Dimgl

08-03-2010, 01:02 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kemt@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just ran some tests on test server and my healing is nerfed on average between 47 and 52%.</blockquote>Are you suggesting there is content you can't do with that change?</blockquote>50% reduction in healing means:- Completely unable to heal through a great deal of content I was previously able to due to insufficient hps.- Reduced power efficiency makes it impossible to complete a lot of content I was able to complete through attrition, even if I can still heal through it with nerfed heals I am going to expend twice as much power, increasing my chance of failure.- Reduced threat generation due to much weaker heals, more threat generated by healers picking up the slack, overall reduction in ability to control encounters in party situations.- Reduced ability to keep my groupmates up through aoes of any kind. You should be perfectly aware that Paladins have no way to increase group mitigation (other than Raid Armament, which is a permanent buff that is part of fighter Affirmative Action for raids) or otherwise absorb/reduce hits for them. Increased chances for party members to die, snowballing into other failures.- Reduced ability to MT or OT in raids. Frequently I would pick up OTing duty and hold required mobs away from the raid with just a single healer, and we'd manage to keep things under control. Now I might need two healers, representing a much larger drain on the raid force. Or I simply might get spiked out more frequently, causing more deaths.Whether the content is solo, heroic, or raid oriented it is a reduction in capability across the board. It is a nerf to our survivability, power longevity, threat generation, utility, and desirability.I can only hope you were trolling to ask that question. Paladin heals impact every aspect of their gameplay in every play setting. Of course cutting it in half is going to reduce capability.

DarkMirrax

08-03-2010, 04:37 AM

q - Critical Healing taken away.. because?a- BG the very thing SOE said they would never change a class for as EQ2 is a PVE game not PVP . whilst your taking away the ability for fighters to crit heal - are you also taking the rangers slow potions - mezzers mezzes - guardians taunts and asasssins abililtys to DW ?Heres a question do SOE ever thing about anything they ever do ? bunch of whiny kids on pvp get a class defining ability nurfed ... at least we can be killed in pvp try killing a warden oh but that class is fine right ?with this change NEEDS to be the oppostie done - remove the ability for healer melee crit to crit also why take one without the other ?its always heartwarming to read the DEV'S answers to these questions .. oh wait .. still nothing and lets be honest we wont see an answer here - post on something crap/worthless like the lore pages and you will get 25 devs posting in there ..first f2p servers now this - wtg soe your really doing well to maintain classes in this game and attract more peopleif these changes go though then i want what SK's Have - rather than heals let us Syphon HP/Power from mobs

Boli32

08-03-2010, 05:09 AM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kemt@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just ran some tests on test server and my healing is nerfed on average between 47 and 52%.</blockquote>Are you suggesting there is content you can't do with that change?</blockquote>Not the point... hey a new guard nerf coming in soon.. nerfing all your stuff you use to survive agro by 30-50% in order to help with reactive heals.. how do you feel?</blockquote>Umm agro is not the same as heals but what ever. You don't need your heals doing as much as they did to make up for the deferential in survivability and that is what yoru heals are for. You will still be able to tank just maybe not as easy to heal any more.</blockquote>main reason I used heals was to deal with spike damage.... less power efficient and more "spam fest" than other tanks... but that was the main purpose... the change makes it more spam and less effective - and whilst we're healing we cannot dps or taunt.THAT was the trade off we always made reduced our own dps and agro in order to survive by helping the healers out by self healing *some* of the incoming damage.... that trade off was never mentioned in any rant about how paladins were so "overpowered"

Jupios

08-03-2010, 11:22 AM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kemt@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just ran some tests on test server and my healing is nerfed on average between 47 and 52%.</blockquote>Are you suggesting there is content you can't do with that change?</blockquote>Not the point... hey a new guard nerf coming in soon.. nerfing all your stuff you use to survive agro by 30-50% in order to help with reactive heals.. how do you feel?</blockquote>Umm agro is not the same as heals but what ever. You don't need your heals doing as much as they did to make up for the deferential in survivability and that is what yoru heals are for. You will still be able to tank just maybe not as easy to heal any more.</blockquote>/facepalm,,Toranx, your in my raids. Have you never noticed how much I have to heal to survive our progression kills. Go ahead and ask the healers how "easy" it is next time.Nerfing pally survivability in raids was not needed, and I dont hear that equally geared/skilled guards cant survive as MTs. This nerf is far to broad. This nerf does nothing to give guards anything they need. This nerf hurts our raids.-20dkp Tornax ;P

Cyrdemac

08-03-2010, 11:42 AM

Removing critical heals from a class wich is per definition a healing tanking class is just wrong. Since SF the healing amounts finally matches those from the beginning of EQ2 where heals were a big help to survive those "o-sh**"-moments during encounters on raids and groups.When I see the actual numbers compared with those posted, those heals will go, where they have been all those years before : on a never used hotbar...AGAINDo we even get increased base heal amounts on those spells wich doesnt crit anymore? No? Do we get anything to help us against spike damage beside those we already have and those you take away? No?I dont really see any reason here that explains why a healing tank class shouldnt heal. I mean heal, not patchworking non-critting bandages..+1 for Boli's suggested change

Yimway

08-03-2010, 12:20 PM

<cite>Kemt@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can only hope you were trolling to ask that question. Paladin heals impact every aspect of their gameplay in every play setting. Of course cutting it in half is going to reduce capability.</blockquote>No, my question is exactly what content do you feel you wont be able to do after this nerf that you can do today?Cause the only answer I know on this, is content you likely shouldn't be able to do without a healer pushing heal buttons.It affects raid survivability in a much smaller percentile than it does other elements of gameplay, and even in looking at raid survivability, my argument is even post change you are still arguably the most survivable choice for the MT slot.I've not seen a solid post that provides data to indicate otherwise.My point being even with the 'reduced capability', your still the best off. If you want to have any success having this change mitigated, you are going to have to demonstrate how you've been reduced too far compared to other fighters, not reduced verses what you can currently do.

Landiin

08-03-2010, 02:10 PM

<cite>Jupios@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kemt@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just ran some tests on test server and my healing is nerfed on average between 47 and 52%.</blockquote>Are you suggesting there is content you can't do with that change?</blockquote>Not the point... hey a new guard nerf coming in soon.. nerfing all your stuff you use to survive agro by 30-50% in order to help with reactive heals.. how do you feel?</blockquote>Umm agro is not the same as heals but what ever. You don't need your heals doing as much as they did to make up for the deferential in survivability and that is what yoru heals are for. You will still be able to tank just maybe not as easy to heal any more.</blockquote>/facepalm,,Toranx, your in my raids. Have you never noticed how much I have to heal to survive our progression kills. Go ahead and ask the healers how "easy" it is next time.Nerfing pally survivability in raids was not needed, and I dont hear that equally geared/skilled guards cant survive as MTs. This nerf is far to broad. This nerf does nothing to give guards anything they need. This nerf hurts our raids.-20dkp Tornax ;P</blockquote>You still have many tools to help you with spike including heals big guy. Suck it up and tell them healers to press them buttons faster<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Dimgl

08-03-2010, 03:01 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kemt@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can only hope you were trolling to ask that question. Paladin heals impact every aspect of their gameplay in every play setting. Of course cutting it in half is going to reduce capability.</blockquote>No, my question is exactly what content do you feel you wont be able to do after this nerf that you can do today?Cause the only answer I know on this, is content you likely shouldn't be able to do without a healer pushing heal buttons.It affects raid survivability in a much smaller percentile than it does other elements of gameplay, and even in looking at raid survivability, my argument is even post change you are still arguably the most survivable choice for the MT slot.I've not seen a solid post that provides data to indicate otherwise.My point being even with the 'reduced capability', your still the best off. If you want to have any success having this change mitigated, you are going to have to demonstrate how you've been reduced too far compared to other fighters, not reduced verses what you can currently do.</blockquote>You do realize that not everyone is in a place where they can or want to raid MT right? Some of us have to be OT/MA/fill other roles. There is one MT. There are 23 other raid slots, and an OT may only need to tank something in under 10% of fights in a raid zone.The myth effect is very strong. But if we're not tanking then we gain no benefit from it.You're arguing that the myth effect makes us such good MTs that we should voluntarily sacrifice 50% of our one and only utility 100% of the time. Many paladins have stated in many threads that we do fill, and enjoy filling, many different roles. Roles that you consistently ignore the validity of.How about you show me how 50% reduced healing is going to leave Paladins the same in an OT/MA/Support role? I usually parsed #6 on the zonewide heal parse in raids, usually beating 1-2 healers. One is an Inq, the other is a fury, who put out substantial parses in DPS groups. But the key is I put out enough healing to be a valid contribution. Wards that stack on MTs are incredibly useful, and Paladin quick heals are clutch anti-spike.How about the burden of proof is on you for once and you explain to me where the desirability of a Paladin is when not MTing? No debuffs, insufficient dps, decent buffs, good heals. The only thing Paladins are good at is being hit and healing hits.Right now whether it be heroic content or raid content the key to Paladin viability in non-tank roles is healing. What good is having a non MT Paladin in raids on encounters that you don't need a legitimate OT if they bring nothing to the table? Or are you expecting Paladin players to roll alt healers and log in/out based on encounters just to hold down a raid spot?If a group trusts me enough to let me main heal an instance that is being tanked by another fighter who is also healing then why shouldn't 2 fighters who are healing be able to make up for one healer not being in a group? If I spend 60-70 of my AA points voluntarily in learning to heal and cure competently so that I can fill a role other than MT, then I should be able to fill that role. Why must a group have a healer? Why can't 2 healing fighters and a dirge, or a healing fighter, a conj water pet, and a coercer team up to match a single healer? The game gains nothing from having group design set in stone. The whims of healers shouldn't dictate group composition.

Yimway

08-03-2010, 04:35 PM

<cite>Kemt@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about the burden of proof is on you for once and you explain to me where the desirability of a Paladin is when not MTing? No debuffs, insufficient dps, decent buffs, good heals. The only thing Paladins are good at is being hit and healing hits.</blockquote>To be completely honest, its the same desirability of guards not in a MT slot, not much.Your abilities, and dps generation even, are best when you are the target of mobs. If you aren't in that role, you are not meeting your classes potential. I assume then your a hate siphon sock backing up heals in a dps group. I would never suggest a paladin would be better for a non-mt fighter slot than really any other fighter other than a guard. However, any other fighter is going to put our more dps in your same OT slot, and if heals are the issue, stacking another healer vs a non tanking paladin is better off for your raid.Nearly any other fighter in that OT slot would be buffing the group more than a paladin. In my honest opinion, in that non-MT slot, you'd be doing more for your raid betraying.I'm curious though, those healers you out parsed on the heal parse, did you also out dps parse them?

Dimgl

08-03-2010, 05:59 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm curious though, those healers you out parsed on the heal parse, did you also out dps parse them?</blockquote>No. The inquisitor is in a DPS optimized group and almost doubles my parse. The Fury only has so little healing because mages rarely take damage, but also does good damage. It varies fight to fight from the Fury though due to being a flex role, and a lack of AA/gear. Being placed in the OT/Leftover/Mixed DPS group doesn't lend to much DPS for myself either obviously. Who "wins" the parse varies in that case, and frankly for either of the two involved it doesn't matter very much.Yes, Guardians sincerely lack utility as well. But at the very least they bring some debuffs, and with the incoming changes they will also bring a lot more to the table. But that has nothing to do with heals. If Guardians need to fill multiple roles better then that is completely independent of a Paladin's role set. Paladins are going to lose 50% of their utility, and only grow weaker and weaker with additional gear progression. Let's not forget that we're going to see another expansion at level 90, so crit bonus will only grow larger, further increasing the performance gap and removing the Paladin's ability to fill subroles. While pure healers continue to grow rapidly Paladins will grow at less than half the rate if this nerf goes through. As PVE content evolves and becomes more difficult it will only get worse. There is absolutely no bright side to this nerf, there is only a sink into mediocrity and weakness.The fact that you think more could be done for the raid by abandoning the class and betraying should say a lot about why this change has no business moving forward, for paladins at least.

dropdahamma

08-03-2010, 07:32 PM

<cite>Kemt@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm curious though, those healers you out parsed on the heal parse, did you also out dps parse them?</blockquote>No. The inquisitor is in a DPS optimized group and almost doubles my parse. The Fury only has so little healing because mages rarely take damage, but also does good damage. It varies fight to fight from the Fury though due to being a flex role, and a lack of AA/gear. Being placed in the OT/Leftover/Mixed DPS group doesn't lend to much DPS for myself either obviously. Who "wins" the parse varies in that case, and frankly for either of the two involved it doesn't matter very much.Yes, Guardians sincerely lack utility as well. But at the very least they bring some debuffs, and with the incoming changes they will also bring a lot more to the table. But that has nothing to do with heals. If Guardians need to fill multiple roles better then that is completely independent of a Paladin's role set. Paladins are going to lose 50% of their utility, and only grow weaker and weaker with additional gear progression. Let's not forget that we're going to see another expansion at level 90, so crit bonus will only grow larger, further increasing the performance gap and removing the Paladin's ability to fill subroles. While pure healers continue to grow rapidly Paladins will grow at less than half the rate if this nerf goes through. As PVE content evolves and becomes more difficult it will only get worse. There is absolutely no bright side to this nerf, there is only a sink into mediocrity and weakness.The fact that you think more could be done for the raid by abandoning the class and betraying should say a lot about why this change has no business moving forward, for paladins at least.</blockquote>Thats because the arguement has not point, except for pallys heal better than terrible healers, and Atan wants to heal too I guess. Have the fury give him salve so he can throw a heal on himself and maybe that will make him happy. Give him the utility he needs. lulz

Jeal

08-04-2010, 02:35 AM

atan do not post hereyou have an alt twink paladinyou don't know enough about this class to offer a valid oppinion.

Wurm

08-04-2010, 03:07 AM

Atan is only posting in here to muddy the waters and make sure the nerf that has his heart all a twitter goes through.Make no mistakes about that.

Kahling

08-04-2010, 10:48 AM

I must admit Atan that you seem to have been on a crusade to have Paladins nerfed for over 10 months now, I remember your posts from beta.If you roll a tank class that cannot heal then you cannot expect it to be able to heal.Paladins heal, it is a HUGE part of what makes them a Paladin.If a character has part of its makeup that it can heal then it is going to be able to solo certain places better / do certain low instances without a healer, it is just the way it is.Also can people please stop bringing up any non current zone as reference, it's total BS, there is no way I want a game balancing based on out of date zones.A huge part of MMO's for people is that they gte a kick out of improving their character little by little. Any nerf in an MMO is bad and makes people unhappy period.

Obadiah

08-04-2010, 11:04 AM

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I must admit Atan that you seem to have been on a crusade to have Paladins nerfed for over 10 months now, I remember your posts from beta.</blockquote>Not just Paladins. Brawlers too. Essentially any non-Guardian. If he had his druthers my class would go back to being a DPS tank and no longer able to fill in as MT when needed as that would be the job of Pallies and Guardians only. It's entirely understandable; it happens to a lot of players when their class is perceived as "down". Makes it difficult to see the big picture.If they can't find any way to adjust things without removing crits from all Paladin heals (save one) that will be extremely disappointing. What they've done to the Berserker heals is mostly OK, but FFS Paladins are healing fighters!

Yimway

08-04-2010, 12:18 PM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>atan do not post hereyou have an alt twink paladinyou don't know enough about this class to offer a valid oppinion.</blockquote>I've got a 120 days played on my pally, I got a reasonable idea how it plays.However, my point posting here is to snap you fools out of this QQ crap.Your not going to get Xelgad to take any action comparing your class to itself pre and post nerf.Your going to have to demonstrate that your class post-nerf is too underpowered compaired to your peer classes. Only then will you get SoE to take some action.I personally feel you're not underpowered post nerf, but you're the paladin expert, post some hard data that prooves otherwise, and Xelgad might take some action on it, and I'll butt out when proven wrong.My perception though, playing paladin, sk, zerker, as well as playing warden/defiler/inq/fury standing behind them is, they have too much healing capability currently and it trivializes too much content. I've felt that way since beta, and I've been pretty consistently on message about it.

Boli32

08-04-2010, 12:54 PM

So your observation on the paladin; is they heal too much?Allow me to demonstrate how much of a paladins defensive cability is wrapped up in healing*ahem* The green is our Healing AA/Spell choices. I had added the mythical buff on the end just to be complete.- Battle Hardening - Reduces all damage done to caster by 289- Sentry's Bulwark - Increases max health of crusader by 5%- Divine Aura - Will absorb all damage less than 50% health. (Recast 5min, Duration 10s)- Sentry's Aura - Increases duration of Divine Aura by 6s- Faithful Cry - Inflicts 1127-1377 and 507-620 damage instantly on target and 507-620 every 4s. Increases threat by 2221-2615 instantly and every 4s therafter. Heals caster instanly for for 547-668 and every 4s thereafter. (Recast 45s, Duration 20s, Range 50m).- Crusader's Faith - A Portion of the groups damage on the enemy is converted in a heal for the crusader (Recast 2min, Duration 16s)- Legionnaire's Focus - Increases heal crit bonus by 16%- Legionnaire's Conviction - Reduces all magical damage by 40%, 200% of that damage is reflected on attacker (Duration 20s, Recast 3min)- Legionaire's Mercy - Increase crusader's resists by 2040 Increase heal amount of spells by 10% of your strength.- Phalanx - Increase block chance by 15%- Aura of the Crusader - Dispells 119 levels of hostile status effects; can be cast whilst under the influence - On a successful dispell causes crusader to be immune to status effects for 20s (Recast 1min, Casting 0.5s)- Faith Strike - Inflicts 258-430 on target heals caster for 170.- Enhance: Faith Strike - Increase heal amount on Faith Strike by 100% (now 340).- Holy Circle - Inflicts 370-618 AoE damage, Heals group for 357.- Blocking Mastery - +24% Block.- Divine Favor - When caster dies heals for 17.5% instantly, Dazes/Stifles caster for 12s- Bearer of Dignity - Reduces Stifle/Daze of Divine Favor to zero.- Crusade - Increases Wisdom by 69 and heal amounts of raid by 4.38%.- Blessing of the Paladin - Increase Str by 77 increase health by 460.- Enhance: Blessing of the Paladin - Increase health given by 60% (now 736)- Blessed Warding - Increases strength and health by 25% adds a regenerating ward (279)- Demonstration of Faith - Wards taregt for 1645 points of all damage. (Recast 15s, Duration 24s, Casting 2s).- Enhance: Demonstration of Faith - Reduces recast by 5s.- Devout Faith - Increases the ward amount of Demonstration of faith by 20% (now 1974).- Lay on Hands - Heals target for 4763-5821 (Recast 5min, Casting Instant)- Enhance: Lay on Hands - Reduce reuse by 60s- Holy Prayers - Increase base heal of Lay on Hands by 15%- Holy Aid - Heals target for 1382-1689 (Casting 1.5s, Recast 5s)- Enhance: Holy Aid - Reduces power cost by 15% increase casting speed by 0.5s.- Devout Prayers - Improves the base heal of Holy Aid by 15%.- Devout Sacrament - Heals caster by 2819-3446 (Casting 1.5s Recast 1m30s)- Enhance: Devout Sacrament - Reduces reuse by 30s.- Arch Heal - Heals target for 1640-2005 (recast 10s, casting 1.5s)- Prayer of Healing - Heals group members for 1328-1623 (Casting 1.5s, recast 7.5s)- Enhance: Prayer of Healing - Reduces casting speed by 0.5s, reduces power cost by 15%- Allied Prayers - Increase the heal of Prayer of Healing by 15%; there is a 15% greater chance it will crit.- Stonewall - Allows caster to block all melee attacks, if shield equiped in secondary (8s duration 1m30s recast)- Blessing of Marr (Mythical Buff) Reduce physical damage by 10%, 10% of incoming damage is healed. That's a large portion of all paladin's defensive capability which is based aroudn healing, now lets review how much of will be effected by this change and reduce their effectivness by half. (in yellow)- Battle Hardening - Reduces all damage done to caster by 289- Sentry's Bulwark - Increases max health of crusader by 5%- Divine Aura - Will absorb all damage less than 50% health. (Recast 5min, Duration 10s)- Sentry's Aura - Increases duration of Divine Aura by 6s- Faithful Cry - Inflicts 1127-1377 and 507-620 damage instantly on target and 507-620 every 4s. Increases threat by 2221-2615 instantly and every 4s therafter. Heals caster instanly for for 547-668 and every 4s thereafter. (Recast 45s, Duration 20s, Range 50m).- Crusader's Faith - A Portion of the groups damage on the enemy is converted in a heal for the crusader (Recast 2min, Duration 16s)- Legionnaire's Focus - Increases heal crit bonus by 16% - Changed to potency- Legionnaire's Conviction - Reduces all magical damage by 40%, 200% of that damage is reflected on attacker (Duration 20s, Recast 3min)- Legionaire's Mercy - Increase crusader's resists by 2040 Increase heal amount of spells by 10% of your strength.- Phalanx - Increase block chance by 15%- Aura of the Crusader - Dispells 119 levels of hostile status effects; can be cast whilst under the influence - On a successful dispell causes crusader to be immune to status effects for 20s (Recast 1min, Casting 0.5s)- Faith Strike - Inflicts 258-430 on target heals caster for 170.- Enhance: Faith Strike - Increase heal amount on Faith Strike by 100% (now 340).- Holy Circle - Inflicts 370-618 AoE damage, Heals group for 357.- Blocking Mastery - +24% Block.- Divine Favor - When caster dies heals for 17.5% instantly, Dazes/Stifles caster for 12s- Bearer of Dignity - Reduces Stifle/Daze of Divine Favor to zero.- Crusade - Increases Wisdom by 69 and heal amounts of raid by 4.38%.- Blessing of the Paladin - Increase Str by 77 increase health by 460.- Enhance: Blessing of the Paladin - Increase health given by 60% (now 736)- Blessed Warding - Increases strength and health by 25% adds a regenerating ward (279)- Demonstration of Faith - Wards taregt for 1645 points of all damage. (Recast 15s, Duration 24s, Casting 2s).- Enhance: Demonstration of Faith - Reduces recast by 5s.- Devout Faith - Increases the ward amount of Demonstration of faith by 20% (now 1974).- Lay on Hands - Heals target for 4763-5821 (Recast 5min, Casting Instant)- Enhance: Lay on Hands - Reduce reuse by 60s- Holy Prayers - Increase base heal of Lay on Hands by 15%- Holy Aid - Heals target for 1382-1689 (Casting 1.5s, Recast 5s)- Enhance: Holy Aid - Reduces power cost by 15% increase casting speed by 0.5s.- Devout Prayers - Improves the base heal of Holy Aid by 15%.- Devout Sacrament - Heals caster by 2819-3446 (Casting 1.5s Recast 1m30s)- Enhance: Devout Sacrament - Reduces reuse by 30s.- Arch Heal - Heals target for 1640-2005 (recast 10s, casting 1.5s)- Prayer of Healing - Heals group members for 1328-1623 (Casting 1.5s, recast 7.5s)- Enhance: Prayer of Healing - Reduces casting speed by 0.5s, reduces power cost by 15%- Allied Prayers - Increase the heal of Prayer of Healing by 15%; there is a 15% greater chance it will crit.- Stonewall - Allows caster to block all melee attacks, if shield equiped in secondary (8s duration 1m30s recast)- Blessing of Marr (Mythical Buff) Reduce physical damage by 10%, 10% of incoming damage is healed.Remember this is a list of ALL the paladin's defensive abilites and aside from the mythical buff they are ALL AA choices - for example many paladins may not spec divine aura for instance; or reflect. and ALL the defensive spells/abilities which are granted from 1-90 to a paladin are heal based and ALL have been reduced by 50-70%Yes Paladins clearly heal too much and its certainly not in the design of the game.

Yimway

08-04-2010, 02:19 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your going to have to demonstrate that your class post-nerf is too underpowered compaired to your peer classes. Only then will you get SoE to take some action.</blockquote>Rather than respond to the above post that I already am completely aware of playing a paladin, I'll instead quote the relevant part of my previous statement that demonstrates why pre/post compairisons do nothing to help your cause.Should Paladin heal the most of all fighters? Absolutely.Are all fighters capable of healing more than is reasonable for the archtype currently? For Sure.You've got to demonstrate how the effects of the change affect your ability to successfully do your job as compaired to equally geared other fighter classes.If you can demonstrate how the change makes you significantly behind other fighters, you may have some success getting Xelgad to revise the nerf. If you just point out what he alread knows (the amount of the reduction), you aren't likely to get any response.

Loxus

08-04-2010, 03:02 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>atan do not post hereyou have an alt twink paladinyou don't know enough about this class to offer a valid oppinion.</blockquote>However, my point posting here is to snap you fools out of this QQ crap.</blockquote>Oh really? So essentially you're giving pallys an open invatation to storm the guardian boards and do the same?From what I've seen in your crusade for this change is that.1) You want our heals nerfed.2) You want our Mitigation nerfed.3) You want amends striped from us.4) You want our dps nerfed.5) and you're jealous of our myth buff and want it removed/changed.1, 2 and 5 lowers our survivability, 3 and 4, lowers our agro. Pretty much everything a tank is and everything that is direct competion to guardians. We have it, you want it. Plain and simple. Moreover, you don't want anyone else to have it. Your crusade isn't about balance it's about Guards being back on top with everyone else squabling for the scraps that guardians are willing to graciously throw. And enough of the [Removed for Content] waving that you've played your pally for 120 days. Who cares! For all we know, those 120 days were spent in front of the broker, whining about class comparisions.

Boli32

08-04-2010, 03:08 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite>Rather than respond to the above post....</blockquote>... You shall now continue to push for more nerfs.Atan seriously? There is a HUGE difference betwene playign a paldin on and off for 120 days and playing one consistantly in high level raiding - somethign you have said all too often about guardians.Says all our arguements are for nothing beause you happen to play one day and thought it didn't matter - isn't part of a contructive argument. The very fact you are still askign for amends to be removed shows how little you know about the paladin class.If you wish to be invoved in a discussion on the PALADIN boards respect other paladins who have played far longer and more more vigourrously than you; rtaher than just ignoreing everything we say and claiming you know better. The fact is you do not.

Kahling

08-04-2010, 03:17 PM

Atan,I'm sorry after 120 days play you havent grasped the class but that's not our fault.Why should we prove it that's the dev's job, its plain to see if you bother to read Boli's post just how much were loosing, in fact I hadn't even realised how long the [Removed for Content] list was.Also please don't come on here saying your trying to get people to stop QQing, I have seen you do nothing but that in any post I have ever seen you do and its normally either another class you want nerfing or your own favorite class you want boosting, you have come on here and totally tried to take this thread over and anyone that disagree's with you gets the same reply each time. You realise this thread is supposed to be "Critical Healing taken away.. Becasue?", how is that QQing? It's asking a perfectly reasonable question.Lets get this straight, a Paladin can heal! You can now take a Paladin who knows what there doing and heal a group with it in some of the easyer zones and in old zones, so what.The more I look at that list of Boli's I realise this isnt a PVE balaceing act, its a PVP one.It needs rethinking and fast! It is too severe and there is nothing back in return. And since this thread has been shot to hell with Atan moving away from the actual meaning I imagine it now won't get the responce it desearves.RegardsKahling.

Obadiah

08-04-2010, 03:49 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So your observation on the paladin; is they heal too much?Allow me to demonstrate how much of a paladins defensive cability is wrapped up in healing*ahem* The green is our Healing AA/Spell choices. I had added the mythical buff on the end just to be complete.- Arch Heal - Heals target for 1640-2005 (recast 10s, casting 1.5s)Remember this is a list of ALL the paladin's defensive abilites and aside from the mythical buff they are ALL AA choices - for example many paladins may not spec divine aura for instance; or reflect. and ALL the defensive spells/abilities which are granted from 1-90 to a paladin are heal based and ALL have been reduced by 50-70%Yes Paladins clearly heal too much and its certainly not in the design of the game.</blockquote>Good news.... Arch Heal still crits. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

Yimway

08-04-2010, 04:18 PM

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why should we prove it that's the dev's job, its plain to see if you bother to read Boli's post just how much were loosing, in fact I hadn't even realised how long the [Removed for Content] list was.</blockquote>The same point still stands. If you cant demonstrate how your losing compaired to other fighters with the same nerf, Xelgad isn't going to do anything for you.If you're going to rely on him to do that for you, then your just going to have to live with his current decision.I've successfully fought nerfs before, and its only by presenting comparison data that any movement is made.

Yimway

08-04-2010, 04:22 PM

<cite>Loxus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) You want our heals nerfed.2) You want our Mitigation nerfed.3) You want amends striped from us.4) You want our dps nerfed.5) and you're jealous of our myth buff and want it removed/changed.</blockquote>1) I want all fighter heals nerfed.2) I want the mitigation curve adjusted for all fighters.3) I think amends should be changed into a single target maintained taunt, but thats part of a global fighter redesign I support, if the entireity of the changes aren't made, amends shouldn't change.4) I actually have proposed your potential dps would go up, however your contested block while aproaching your dps potential would be removed. Just as it is for all non-crusaders.5) I do feel you have the best fighter myth buff. I don't actually want it changed, I just said you need to consider it in your aggregate healing. I do feel the effectivenesss of your buff vs other fighters warrants other fighter's myths being updated for todays game.You fellas can Vilify me all you want, until you can demonstrate your worse off than any other fighter with this nerf, your probably not going to get it stopped/reverted.I'm posting in this thread, cause I do have a minor doubt that this nerf *might* hit paladins harder than it should, but no one is really demonstrating with data how they are behind any other fighter in survivability post nerf yet. I don't have the right similarly geared toons to do the comparison data, and I'm not nearly as vested in the issue as you guys should be.

Kilnger

08-04-2010, 06:24 PM

To play a bit of devil's advocate as a neutral party, I think we need to look at this from a different angle. For the purpose of this post, I'm going to assume that the loss of crit will not affect a paladin's personal survivability. This is something that those against the crit change have to accept to understand the rest of the post.Now, I want to bring up the topic which is, for all intents and purposes, open to interpretation and that is utility. When we look at all the fighter classes, we can understand that all six are first and foremost tanks. However, every class in this game, including the DPS, bring some manner of utility to the board, with four (bards/enchanters) specializing almost entirely in utility. Fighters are obviously no exception to this.It has been argued to death that the crit chance will influence self survivabiliy and for the purpose of my post, as I mentioned earlier, this does not matter. I believe that it will not significantly impact the survivability of any tank to the point of worthlessness, and I still wait for a mathematical analysis (or simply watching the results if the patch goes live) to agree one way or another. However, this absolutely cripples a paladin's utility more then any other tank.To bring up an example, it's easy to look at the immediate comparison of a Shadowknight and Paladin. Judging by just their abilities, without going deep into AAs, the type of utility and amount they bring is fundamentally different. Shadowknights bring to the table an evac (meh in raids), a targetted feign death (wipe prevention, aggro control), Death March (which I believe can be adorned with a stoneskin on top of what it does), Unholy Blessing (YMMV), a Wisdom debuff (meh) and group Lifetap (negligble). On the flipside, Paladins gain Amends (single target hate control), Sigil of Heroism (group hate siphon), three heals (affected by crit change), Demonstration of Faith (affected by crit change), and an in combat resurrect (adorned to be full + no res sickness). As a brief mention, within the trees paladins gain a substantial amount of support (cure, Heretic's Destruction, another heal, and raid armament come to mind) while shadowknights primarily get Essence Siphon.Now, the real reason I bring all this up is because how much of this can be utilized when not a tank or a main tank? Evac, Feign Death, and Death March can be utilized in both, while the Shadowknight remains self sufficient in terms of self healing and will obviously be using armament to buff the tank and Essence Siphon to buff the group. The biggest loss in terms of the crit bonus is Unholy Blessing losing its healing oomph, but it still does damage and provides a meager bump. Paladins on the other hand lose a large part of three heals (which cover the group or help backup heal), a ward (probably not worth casting on the tank), Amends and Sigil probably will cause hate problems over the main tank (except in raiding), and you're left with...cure, Arch Heal, Heretic's Destruction and Elixir (if adorned). In a group situation, the paladin will likely be Armamenting the main tank, unless the latter is overgeared, which makes Raid Armament a loss. One or the other. Healer is more then likely curing, but some help is better then none I suppose.I've personally never seen a Shadowknight's utility as anything more then gimmick or "throw it in" types, simply because they are extremely self sufficient tanks. Paladins, more then any other tanks, live and breath in their utility, which is the main reason you bring them along. What would otherwise function as a sturdy, if not reliable, backup healer becomes a meager DPS, gimmick curebot (that's worse then a healer brought along for that purpose) who has one ability that temporarily buffs the group. I'd be willing to bet that almost all priests will have a similar ability while being able to cure curses as well and do more damage to boot.So here's the question supporters of the crit change, why bring a paladin along to do anything besides Main Tank? This is -not- a post asking about survivability because most classes can function outside their main role to some degree. What do paladins, with the loss of healing, have that makes them desired over guardians, berserkers, monks, bruisers, and shadowknights that is quantifiably equal to the tools the other classes have? I am not an expert on fighters at all, possessing only a rudimentary knowledge, but this is a fairly obvious point (feel free to quote this sentence if you need to use a one liner to dimiss the post).People ask for the burden of proof for people to show that paladin survivability dropped and, for the most part, it hasn't been proven. I'm on your side for that. Now, the burden of proof is on those who believe the crit change is good and healthy for all involved and will not affect paladins specifically any more or less then the other fighters. Go ahead.By the way, it's very likely this could all be solved by making Arch Heal into a stance (actual stance, like priest heal stances) that granted crit healing. It brings a sacrifice of survivability but allows them healing.

Yimway

08-04-2010, 06:40 PM

<cite>Kilnger wrote:</cite><blockquote>So here's the question supporters of the crit change, why bring a paladin along to do anything besides Main Tank? This is -not- a post asking about survivability because most classes can function outside their main role to some degree. What do paladins, with the loss of healing, have that makes them desired over guardians, berserkers, monks, bruisers, and shadowknights that is quantifiably equal to the tools the other classes have?</blockquote>While your not going to like the answer... Your utility outside of your healing (which is only lessoned) and limited cures, is you're a hate sponge when not tanking. You have a raidwide buff that does slightly impact survivability as well.Is any of that utility on its own enough to bring you over an SK or Zerker in the same slot? Honestly, probably not likely. Is it enough utility to bring instead of a monk, guard, bruiser? Argueably.Proposing some additional utility in exchange for the nerf isn't completely out of reason. I'd be thrilled if you had a heal converted into something that improves group survivability. Perhaps a short term that absorbs 10% of the groups damage. Something that contributes to the groups survivability while not over augmenting your personal survivability is perhaps in reason. But Xelgad may feel the heals you still have is enough utility.Now, the hardcore folks are going to say if your not tanking, the only utility you can add is more dps, and they'll want something more in line with Death March. All I can say, is good luck with that crusade.

Morgue

08-04-2010, 06:40 PM

AtanPersonally, I only get a vast hatred for Paladins and tanks in general. Could be that you come across a bit "know it all" through text, maybe its that you do not express yourself well enough through grammar. I, for one, have almost completely started to ignore your postings.

Kilnger

08-04-2010, 07:02 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kilnger wrote:</cite><blockquote>So here's the question supporters of the crit change, why bring a paladin along to do anything besides Main Tank? This is -not- a post asking about survivability because most classes can function outside their main role to some degree. What do paladins, with the loss of healing, have that makes them desired over guardians, berserkers, monks, bruisers, and shadowknights that is quantifiably equal to the tools the other classes have?</blockquote>While your not going to like the answer... Your utility outside of your healing (which is only lessoned) and limited cures, is you're a hate sponge when not tanking. You have a raidwide buff that does slightly impact survivability as well.Is any of that utility on its own enough to bring you over an SK or Zerker in the same slot? Honestly, probably not likely. Is it enough utility to bring instead of a monk, guard, bruiser? Argueably.Proposing some additional utility in exchange for the nerf isn't completely out of reason. I'd be thrilled if you had a heal converted into something that improves group survivability. Perhaps a short term that absorbs 10% of the groups damage. Something that contributes to the groups survivability while not over augmenting your personal survivability is perhaps in reason. But Xelgad may feel the heals you still have is enough utility.Now, the hardcore folks are going to say if your not tanking, the only utility you can add is more dps, and they'll want something more in line with Death March. All I can say, is good luck with that crusade.</blockquote>To be honest, I rather agree with you. When I used to raid EoF and KoS as a troub, the joke among my circle of friends was "If a paladin didn't die, you weren't doing enough DPS." My main problem with this utility is that, to be honest, it's not exactly amazing or even the best among the tanks. The hate siphon is, bar none the strongest across all six fighters, but death saving...lacks. By design, it seems to be geared to be meant to coexist with healing, which only brings to question the real utility of hate sponging.I remember the old old old old Divine Favor which, upon triggering, immediately made you lose 23 hate positions or something absurd like that while stunning you for a good long while. In that situation, hate sponging is a good task (minus the crippling stun) and would create a semi strong reason to bring a paladin, if only to suction hate off some absurdly high damage target or group. I feel that with the weakened heals, paladins are little more then a brawler's altruisim on one target, except the paladin ends up kicking the bucket and brought back to life to do it again.I very much like the idea of "Group survival" abilities as a new utility, perhaps even changing paladin heals so that they mimic shaman heals by adding damage reduction to non fighters, hate loss, or max HP or something similar on top of the heal proper. My main concern is that paladins will start to tread slightly on the toes of guardian utility (group stoneskins, sentinel, etc) while retaining what become lackluster heals.Regardless, I still do feel that paladin utility, perhaps even all fighter utility, should at least be looked over to judge the overall true "loss" of this heal change. We can argue to death about survivability impact, but I honestly don't believe it has as big an impact as everyone seems to be clamoring. Fighters do have more potential then taunting, after all.

Morgue

08-04-2010, 08:04 PM

Kilnger,I would take the word of a 'career' paladin, such as Boli, over someone's twink. While I think you are mostly objective, my main toons have been tanks in EQ2. I have a fair amount of experience playing tanks in MMOs. From a personaly experience perspective, Paladins really do not offer much out side of heals to group members and generic buffs. My zerker, I played the majority of EQ2 as, has far better buffs and DPS. My Bruiser, speaking from a pvp setting, has better control over status effects and generally higher dps. What I rolled my paladin for, outside of wanting a better ton to duo with my wife's warden/illy, was being an adept not master self-healing tank. I do not see nerfing fighter "heals" in general a logical solution. Blanket nerfs tend to only create sub cancelations. There is a far better way if SoE takes time to think this through, and not attempt another Fighter-rebalance styled 'fix.'-sam

Kilnger

08-04-2010, 08:29 PM

<cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kilnger,I would take the word of a 'career' paladin, such as Boli, over someone's twink. While I think you are mostly objective, my main toons have been tanks in EQ2. I have a fair amount of experience playing tanks in MMOs. From a personaly experience perspective, Paladins really do not offer much out side of heals to group members and generic buffs. My zerker, I played the majority of EQ2 as, has far better buffs and DPS. My Bruiser, speaking from a pvp setting, has better control over status effects and generally higher dps. What I rolled my paladin for, outside of wanting a better ton to duo with my wife's warden/illy, was being an adept not master self-healing tank. I do not see nerfing fighter "heals" in general a logical solution. Blanket nerfs tend to only create sub cancelations. There is a far better way if SoE takes time to think this through, and not attempt another Fighter-rebalance styled 'fix.'-sam </blockquote>And I for one agree with you. People roll paladins for the capacity to heal more then anything else. I don't play a paladin nor am I really interested in it (Inquisitor/Templar is more enjoyable to me), and I agree that their utility (which we've established as hate sponge + healing) need tremendous help with the changes.That being said, my problem is with the self healing aspect of the paladin which, all things considered, is the main point of concern for most people. People are ranting and raving all around that it's crippling their survivability and, quite frankly, I've not seen any concrete proof. I do trust career paladins, but at the same time I think it's fair to ask for some manner of evidence instead of doom and gloom.To bring up an example, Shadowknights were shown to only lose 2% efficiency within a raid parse as well as a different amount within a group parse, albeit a generally minor amount. The change fundamentally didn't really do much to them, showing if nothing else that it was unneeded (or so the argument claimed). It has been shown in this thread that paladin healing efficiency has been reduced between 40-50%, which really hits their utility hard, but what about survival? That's the real kicker. It's also something that I'm sure everyone, players and devs, is interested to see.I do want to add that if I've missed some posting of this, feel free to link it so that everyone can see the change. I'm not talking about the post above which does show us the healing loss, I'm talking about a parse or an actual analysis among all tanks and the defensive ability lost from healing.

Morgue

08-04-2010, 08:43 PM

<cite>Kilnger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kilnger,I would take the word of a 'career' paladin, such as Boli, over someone's twink. While I think you are mostly objective, my main toons have been tanks in EQ2. I have a fair amount of experience playing tanks in MMOs. From a personaly experience perspective, Paladins really do not offer much out side of heals to group members and generic buffs. My zerker, I played the majority of EQ2 as, has far better buffs and DPS. My Bruiser, speaking from a pvp setting, has better control over status effects and generally higher dps. What I rolled my paladin for, outside of wanting a better ton to duo with my wife's warden/illy, was being an adept not master self-healing tank. I do not see nerfing fighter "heals" in general a logical solution. Blanket nerfs tend to only create sub cancelations. There is a far better way if SoE takes time to think this through, and not attempt another Fighter-rebalance styled 'fix.'-sam </blockquote>And I for one agree with you. People roll paladins for the capacity to heal more then anything else. I don't play a paladin nor am I really interested in it (Inquisitor/Templar is more enjoyable to me), and I agree that their utility (which we've established as hate sponge + healing) need tremendous help with the changes.That being said, my problem is with the self healing aspect of the paladin which, all things considered, is the main point of concern for most people. People are ranting and raving all around that it's crippling their survivability and, quite frankly, I've not seen any concrete proof. I do trust career paladins, but at the same time I think it's fair to ask for some manner of evidence instead of doom and gloom.To bring up an example, Shadowknights were shown to only lose 2% efficiency within a raid parse as well as a different amount within a group parse, albeit a generally minor amount. The change fundamentally didn't really do much to them, showing if nothing else that it was unneeded (or so the argument claimed). It has been shown in this thread that paladin healing efficiency has been reduced between 40-50%, which really hits their utility hard, but what about survival? That's the real kicker. It's also something that I'm sure everyone, players and devs, is interested to see.I do want to add that if I've missed some posting of this, feel free to link it so that everyone can see the change. I'm not talking about the post above which does show us the healing loss, I'm talking about a parse or an actual analysis among all tanks and the defensive ability lost from healing.</blockquote>Boli has compared live and test based paladin healing and other such ablities in a post. On page 4 or 5 of this thread. Its not a far step to draw that paladin survival would be nerfed if their healing is nerfed. While one might argue thats the healers job, in a pnich a paladin is currently capable to step in a self heal a moment or as needed. The only death save a paladin has is currently a self heal aswell, but its not a very good one. If this nerf is needed, then inq and the "melee" dps healers should see melee crits removed. This is seen as a PVP response, through that tinking is not a healer's primary job to heal and not deal dmg? Consider this, a paladin is a tank with heals and inq is a healer with melee dps; if a paladin can no longer critical heal significantly: because, its some how OP then an inq should no longer be able to heal and deal significant dps.

LivelyHound

08-06-2010, 09:00 AM

<cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>AtanPersonally, I only get a vast hatred for Paladins and tanks in general. Could be that you come across a bit "know it all" through text, maybe its that you do not express yourself well enough through grammar. I, for one, have almost completely started to ignore your postings.</blockquote>QFTI used to read Atan's post but now he just comes across as a troll. Anythign to de-rail these threads so that the original question gets lost and we get no answer.To anyone reading who can make a difference to this change, I would ask you to read Boli's posts they are far more informative.

Landiin

08-06-2010, 11:31 AM

Getting something taken away sucks I know. I really don't see how this brings you below other fighters just weakens your solo game and requires your healers not to suck so much. Yea it sucks but it doesn't break your class one bit. I hope you all get it changed back but I have to agree with Atan on you need to providde solid data not pages of QQing if you want it changed back.

Boli32

08-06-2010, 12:12 PM

Which I have; heals are a paladins temp buffs, damage prevention and damage spike abilities; well they WERE.They have all been sevearly nerfed leading to a set of abilities that have been reduced in effectivness to such a degree they ARE NOT WORTH CASTING. We will be reduced to a healing tank... who cannot use their heals. or at least use them in any meaningful way due to the size of heal + casting speed + recast + duration vs the average health of a paladin.Direct heals due to their very nature are heals which are designed to help with damage spikes; these do not and something needs to change; either how a paladin heals or returning critical heals to a paladin.In pure fighter terms pretty much removing the heals from a paladin (which this bascially is) is like telling all fighters that "stoneskins no longer work on fighters" except instead of triggering no damage we react to and deal with the damage once reeived a far less efficent but more direct method of damage prevention.

Morgue

08-06-2010, 01:08 PM

I keep seeing "provide solid proof" again and again. Have the people responding with that not read Boli's post? I think he has laid out a significant amount of proof, but I guess its simply being ignored.

Landiin

08-06-2010, 02:27 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Which I have; heals are a paladins temp buffs, damage prevention and damage spike abilities; well they WERE.They have all been sevearly nerfed leading to a set of abilities that have been reduced in effectivness to such a degree they ARE NOT WORTH CASTING. We will be reduced to a healing tank... who cannot use their heals. or at least use them in any meaningful way due to the size of heal + casting speed + recast + duration vs the average health of a paladin.Direct heals due to their very nature are heals which are designed to help with damage spikes; these do not and something needs to change; either how a paladin heals or returning critical heals to a paladin.In pure fighter terms pretty much removing the heals from a paladin (which this bascially is) is like telling all fighters that "stoneskins no longer work on fighters" except instead of triggering no damage we react to and deal with the damage once reeived a far less efficent but more direct method of damage prevention.</blockquote>Again I know getting things taken away sucks. However I still don't see your temp buffs (heals) as they will be post nerf will make you any less survivable then lets say the guardian. You still bring more to the raid then a guardian would if not MT. Again I hate seeing you guys get things taken but I don't see how this will ruin the paladin subclass.Yes I read Boli's post and he can quote abilities pretty good. But the data that is needed is encounter DMG parses vs other tanks that show the pally being sub par. Frankly I don't think any parse will show that. Again good luck on your quest to get heal crit back, I hope you are successful.

Boli32

08-06-2010, 03:04 PM

I'm sorry but you just don't know anything about BEING a paladin. When we tank the harder stuff we are spamming heals like crazy; after every AOE, group heal; after every damage spikes, Lay on Hands and our single heal get a look in as well. Its entirely power ineffcieint, it reduces our personal agro and DPS by a LOT ut it DOES help us deal with damage spikes better.A guardian who you are comparaing a paladins survibility to has other abilities:- Unyielding Will- Dragoon Reflexes (included in the list as I have included Divine aura... speced not by many Crusaders and like DR DA has issues)- Guardian Sphere- Last Man Standing- Tower of Ston- Block- Defensive MindedA Paladin by contrast has much less anti spike abilities... it does however have heals.. which ARE our abilities which help with damage spikes by healing the damage taken rather than stop the damage entirely. which is what a warrior has. Paladin heals are also far less power efficient, are spells (can be interupted; not cast on the move).This change was to address fighter heals so they were not "too powerful"; however in doing so they were comparsing say the guardians mit buffs to a paladins self ward. Whilst in THEORY this change makes sense to say the reactive lifetaps and wards the DIRECT heals which are also nerfed it is THOSE heals which are the issue.Our DIRECT heals were our spike damage prevention... and a 2.5-3.5k heal when your health is 30k+ and you take a 25k hit does NOT cut it. The paladin direct heals were nerfed along with the reactive heals which were the intended targetQUOTE: Yes I read Boli's post and he can quote abilities pretty good. But the data that is needed is encounter DMG parses vs other tanks that show the pally being sub par. Frankly I don't think any parse will show that. Again good luck on your quest to get heal crit back, I hope you are successful. That is impossible to parse... tanks die from damage spikes not sustained damage especilaly on the higher level mobs.

Cyrdemac

08-06-2010, 03:36 PM

I couldn't have explained it better myself than Boli. Yes, our heals are our spike prevention, the casting is true, hitting group heal after AoE, hitting Lay of Hands after big hit, selfheal if lay is down etc...all those are now not even worth casting, to long casting time, too much mana cost, too low heal value, even increased potency does not help anymore.So basically our spike prevention is halfed, our abiliy to help the group after an AoE or ourself after spike hit almost nullified and still I find people saying, this nerf is a good one and we dont need heals anyway? Still amazes me...

Stonestrong

08-06-2010, 03:39 PM

The nerf to fighter healing directly impacts the Paldin much more than any other figher class. Healing(self) has always been a niche to us. Some morons are arguining for "data" to prove this. Having heals are more about being usefull when you need them; not how much they parse out over a zone. Using our ward and self heals to help mitigate spike damage is a staple in any good raiding Paladin's arsenal. You take away the usefullness of the heals and you are severely impacting playstyle.The best part about this thread is the people who have never played Paladins on any signifianct level commenting about it the issue as though they have some form of a clue. I would hope by now SOE would understand the difference between the people who like to post to increase their post count and the people who actually know what they are talking about.

Landiin

08-06-2010, 04:59 PM

Ok I give up, plz don't take pallys out of god mode. Other wise some will not be able to play the class.I just hate pallys because there is a lvl 24 pally on Crushbone that has my name! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Morgue

08-06-2010, 05:50 PM

Stonestrong

08-06-2010, 05:58 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok I give up, plz don't take pallys out of god mode. Other wise some will not be able to play the class.I just hate pallys because there is a lvl 24 pally on Crushbone that has my name! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>An SK referring to another class as being Godmode? What so many of you lemmings constantly fail to realize and understand is this; if you have an issue with YOUR class then you need to address IT. Going around to other class forums and crying about what they have and going on a crusade to get them nerfed is lame. The whole "Class balance" ideal is a joke. They have never been balanced and never will be.Before you talk about someone not being able to play the class you need to get a clue about who you are talking to or about. I highly doubt anybody needs to defend their ability to some guy nobody has ever heard of in a guild that nobody has ever heard of, on Crushbone none the less.

Landiin

08-06-2010, 06:30 PM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok I give up, plz don't take pallys out of god mode. Other wise some will not be able to play the class.I just hate pallys because there is a lvl 24 pally on Crushbone that has my name! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>An SK referring to another class as being Godmode? What so many of you lemmings constantly fail to realize and understand is this; if you have an issue with YOUR class then you need to address IT. Going around to other class forums and crying about what they have and going on a crusade to get them nerfed is lame. The whole "Class balance" ideal is a joke. They have never been balanced and never will be.Before you talk about someone not being able to play the class you need to get a clue about who you are talking to or about. I highly doubt anybody needs to defend their ability to some guy nobody has ever heard of in a guild that nobody has ever heard of, on Crushbone none the less.</blockquote>OMG Stone you called me an SK! Thats just low man! Plenty of people know me, I've been around since the beginning and very active in the community. Who are you again, can you remind me? Never the less I still hope your class don't get adjusted. (n/m)

Yimway

08-06-2010, 06:55 PM

<cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I keep seeing "provide solid proof" again and again. Have the people responding with that not read Boli's post? I think he has laid out a significant amount of proof, but I guess its simply being ignored. </blockquote>Boli's post does not address Paladin survivability/utility/dps as compaired to other fighters. And that honestly is all that is relevant.

Landiin

08-06-2010, 07:10 PM

Does it really matter? EQ2 is all but dead when eq2x goes llive and every one will buy their way so frankly I can care less any more.

Boli32

08-06-2010, 08:33 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I keep seeing "provide solid proof" again and again. Have the people responding with that not read Boli's post? I think he has laid out a significant amount of proof, but I guess its simply being ignored. </blockquote>Boli's post does not address Paladin survivability/utility/dps as compaired to other fighters. And that honestly is all that is relevant.</blockquote>Wrong; a tank is about holding agro and being able to survive it.Guardians have been shouting constantly about being able to hold agro and have eventually been getting some hate love: their line is : there is no point in being able to survive it if you can't hold agro. and yet compared to the other fighters it was "fair" and "balanced" as guards had better surviavl and group survial than all the other tanks ther was balance but guardians didn;t think it was "balanced" as their line was every tank shoudl be able to hold agro.Well our line is every tank shoudl be able to SURVIVE agro. - this nerf dramtically effects our survibility in raids. Sure we may be beter balanced in pvp and BGs but we are not balancing that are we <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />There is no point in being able to get agro if you go "squish"... it doens;t matter how much utility and DPS you bring to a raid... if you cannot survive agro you might as well bring another chanter or bard.All tanks should be able to hold and survive agro... just in different ways. The BALANCE shoudl be utility and DPS. not using the core roles of what EVERY tank should be.

Morgue

08-06-2010, 08:54 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I keep seeing "provide solid proof" again and again. Have the people responding with that not read Boli's post? I think he has laid out a significant amount of proof, but I guess its simply being ignored. </blockquote>Boli's post does not address Paladin survivability/utility/dps as compaired to other fighters. And that honestly is all that is relevant.</blockquote>Wrong; a tank is about holding agro and being able to survive it.Guardians have been shouting constantly about being able to hold agro and have eventually been getting some hate love: their line is : there is no point in being able to survive it if you can't hold agro. and yet compared to the other fighters it was "fair" and "balanced" as guards had better surviavl and group survial than all the other tanks ther was balance but guardians didn;t think it was "balanced" as their line was every tank shoudl be able to hold agro.Well our line is every tank shoudl be able to SURVIVE agro. - this nerf dramtically effects our survibility in raids. Sure we may be beter balanced in pvp and BGs but we are not balancing that are we <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />There is no point in being able to get agro if you go "squish"... it doens;t matter how much utility and DPS you bring to a raid... if you cannot survive agro you might as well bring another chanter or bard.All tanks should be able to hold and survive agro... just in different ways. The BALANCE shoudl be utility and DPS. not using the core roles of what EVERY tank should be.</blockquote>QFTI played a zerker for most of my eq2 time, we had good survival: for a while we had issues with hate. Mainly until we got our mythical, but now that is not such an issue as AA and zerkers no longer need to use a shield 100% of the time we can use dps to hold agro. Both warriors have addition buffs for Defense. Temporary additional mit, avoid buffs, stoneskin, and adrenaline come to mind, and if they are used properly a healer does not need to heal as much. The crusader is required to use other means to mitigate incomeing damage as they do not have said temporary buffs. WHat a crusader lacks in additional buffs is made up with healing sks and paladins do this in different ways. Sks are the least tanks for durablity, but this is viable as SKs are consider the higher damage dealing plate tank. Paladins, considering they are defensive crusaders, should be able to maintain themselves better then the other 3 plate tanks while doing the other things associated with tanks. I do not profess to be an expert on paladins; however, having been a raid tank in many games I do understand the simple subtle effects a classes tools have on raid standing. This will lower a paladin's ability to survive raid mobs if that is the way EQ2's designers feel they will make guardians more desireable, how sad they cannot find a more inventive solution.

Landiin

08-06-2010, 09:02 PM

From Panel #1's QA:<blockquote>Q: if paladins can’t crit on heal anymore why can healers crit on spells? A: so you are asking why warriors need healers? Just because it was broken for years we still need to fix it. you can still do a lot of self heals.</blockquote> Looks like you guys better start doing some testing and post compare data between tank classes or this is gonna go live. Good luck my friends, hope you win the fight.

Morgue

08-06-2010, 09:10 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>From Panel #1's QA:<blockquote>Q: if paladins can’t crit on heal anymore why can healers crit on spells? A: so you are asking why warriors need healers? Just because it was broken for years we still need to fix it. you can still do a lot of self heals.</blockquote> Looks like you guys better start doing some testing and post compare data between tank classes or this is gonna go live. Good luck my friends, hope you win the fight.</blockquote>I saw this as well. As a IT/Programmer thats weak, very weak answer. Goes back to my last post, its a non-inventive solution.

Stonestrong

08-06-2010, 09:37 PM

Prrasha

08-07-2010, 04:12 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your going to have to demonstrate that your class post-nerf is too underpowered compaired to your peer classes. Only then will you get SoE to take some action.I personally feel you're not underpowered post nerf, but you're the paladin expert, post some hard data that prooves otherwise, and Xelgad might take some action on it, and I'll butt out when proven wrong.</blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Boli's post does not address Paladin survivability/utility/dps as compaired to other fighters. And that honestly is all that is relevant.</blockquote><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Looks like you guys better start doing some testing and post compare data between tank classes or this is gonna go live. Good luck my friends, hope you win the fight.</blockquote>So, the Devs come up with a one-size-fits-all "solution" for tank "overhealing"... claiming that "no critical heals" will be exactly the fix needed for Pally direct heals, SK lifetaps, zerker always-on-buff healing, brawler percentage heals... and you'll take them at their word that it's balanced, even though logic, math, and even "gut feeling" might dictate otherwise; that a one-size-fits-all change would probably affect tanks to different degrees.Paladin players get some actual numbers about how their heals will be reduced, and rather than taking them at their word, it's "show me a comparison, prove that you're now less survivable than the other tanks".Does any player in the game have six level 90 tanks in comparable gear to compare (or even just the 4 plate tanks), much less a whole guild willing to group or raid on the test_copy server to help out? I may have seven L90 alts (all in low-rent instance gear), but only one is a tank.Even if the buffer NPC was up on test_copy so someone could just make six high-end tanks in a few minutes, I'm sure the new line would be "but you don't know how to play anything but a Paladin well, so your results are invalid."So, either point out EXACTLY WHO should be doing this testing, or please quit with this line of argument.Because I think the people who should be posting all the data are the DEVELOPERS. You know: the people who actually have all of it, already.<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>My perception though, playing paladin, sk, zerker, as well as playing warden/defiler/inq/fury standing behind them is, they have too much healing capability currently and it trivializes too much content. I've felt that way since beta, and I've been pretty consistently on message about it.</blockquote>...especially when your argument FOR the change is your "perception" about tank healing. We have hard data, even if it's "only" about paladins. Where's your hard data? Please show us these heal parses (where you and the tanks you're healing are in zone-appropriate gear... I don't really care if T3 raid gear means you can blow through low-end group zones), where the tank is "trivializing" your healing ability.

Landiin

08-07-2010, 07:29 PM

<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:<blockquote>Looks like you guys better start doing some testing and post compare data between tank classes or this is gonna go live. Good luck my friends, hope you win the fight.</blockquote>So, the Devs come up with a one-size-fits-all "solution" for tank "overhealing"... claiming that "no critical heals" will be exactly the fix needed for Pally direct heals, SK lifetaps, zerker always-on-buff healing, brawler percentage heals... and you'll take them at their word that it's balanced, even though logic, math, and even "gut feeling" might dictate otherwise; that a one-size-fits-all change would probably affect tanks to different degrees.Paladin players get some actual numbers about how their heals will be reduced, and rather than taking them at their word, it's "show me a comparison, prove that you're now less survivable than the other tanks".Does any player in the game have six level 90 tanks in comparable gear to compare (or even just the 4 plate tanks), much less a whole guild willing to group or raid on the test_copy server to help out? I may have seven L90 alts (all in low-rent instance gear), but only one is a tank.Even if the buffer NPC was up on test_copy so someone could just make six high-end tanks in a few minutes, I'm sure the new line would be "but you don't know how to play anything but a Paladin well, so your results are invalid."So, either point out EXACTLY WHO should be doing this testing, or please quit with this line of argument.Because I think the people who should be posting all the data are the DEVELOPERS. You know: the people who actually have all of it, already.</blockquote>Data is the only thing they will listen to, if even that. I am not arguing for this nerf at all!!!They don't have to prove their point but we the players do. If we want something to change or not to change we have to provide prof(data). So the people that need to be doing the testing is classes that wants/don't want the change. Most guild have more then enough classes to do compare test with. If no one in your guild will help you out, your to lazy or don't have the knowledge to do the test, then that is you problem not SOE's. You can scream and yell are you want, they don't care or even listen until you show them prof. I am not arguing with you I am just simply trying to tell you what the look at. They seem to have the data that proves their point, you have to come up with the data the disproves it, its that simple. Then they can chose to listen or not. But just QQing about it get you no where. Sorry if you don't like it, thats how it is. As I've stated many times I don't want this nerf and I hope you get it changed.

Jeal

08-08-2010, 05:24 AM

K... so here is my infamous data from soloing SOH's sisters ire and malevolence i sit around 24k hp and 60ish bonus along with 35ish potency in the gear i choose to wear for this fight. Theres really nothing else that tests my healing as much as this fight aside from maybe trying to solo other pre-sf content which.. in most cases would be too much of a waste of time.so as you can see i take about 1400 dps from them over the course of 20 mins.. my single target heal on my own tops out around 7.5k.. in raid that might go up to 10-12.. thats about 25% of my hp for a single target heal that seems pretty in line.my group heal tops off around 6k so that would probably go up to around 8-10 in raid.. when your entire group has 25+k hp.. again how is this out of line?devout sacrament my long recast high heal amount ability.. looks like it tops out around the 66% of my hp with my current bonus... out of line how?obviously i didn't get a full use out of lay on hands.. but it is intended to be a full heal... nerfed i'll be lucky if it heals half my hp in raid.. making it uterlly uselessfaithful cry is the tso endline and should be a pretty powerful dot heal.. 240hps if i managed to take enough damage to eat through defiler wards constantly in raid might shoot up to 500ish...really.. what situation would there ever be where any of these numbers are out of line for a tank that has HEALS as their main method of spike prevention... i don't understand one bit<img src="http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr20/Jeal117/sohhealz.jpg" />and just for comparison here is what my heals did on our WW1st kill on construct currently the hardest mob in the game and you would think.. the most valuable for our healing abilities... BUT NO guess what my heals are so OP they don't even get USED!! (which is why boli's ideas about small wards or damage reduction buffs attached to our heals would make them SIGNIFICANTLY more useful <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> )... the ward which i cast not always when up (so much other stuff to do in that fight) clearly didn't overpower the mob to death with its amazingly huge ward amounts...<img src="http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr20/Jeal117/constructheals.jpg" />IN CONCLUSION!... my gear/skill <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> is OPnot my HEALS

Boli32

08-08-2010, 10:32 AM

Did rescue - pretty stand group.. healer was a singular warden and healed 2.6k hps <img src="http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k313/krysla_havenlight/all_healed.jpg" />This is AA spec group regenerating ward... above the red line denotes the spike from herretics coercer temp buff.<img src="http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k313/krysla_havenlight/aura_leadership.jpg" />Self buff, blessing, 2 red lines denotes average, one with marr's proc up one without.<img src="http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k313/krysla_havenlight/blessing.jpg" width="958" height="625" />Lay on Hands, the red line denotes where it woudl be after the nerf - notice that it was used 4 times and twice failed as the healer got there first.<img src="http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k313/krysla_havenlight/loh.jpg" />This is the 10% heal on incoming damage; the spikes from taking spikes of damage (obviously) remember when wards are up this will heal for ZERO. note the large number of small almost unnoiceable heals.<img src="http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k313/krysla_havenlight/marr.jpg" />Group heal, red line denotes where it will be after the nerf; this I used to help top the group off after an AoE... only 2 fights with AoE. In such a way it is about as effective as a temp AoE avoidance or sentinal.. .except as a heal- as you can see the healed damage varies from the max (10k) to 0 (not shown)<img src="http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k313/krysla_havenlight/group.jpg" />Sacrment used in conjunction with Lay on Hands to deal with spike damage.. only used twice duer to the long cast time - notice how this is massively reduced after the update (red line) <img src="http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k313/krysla_havenlight/sacrament.jpg" />This is the best data anyone can really give... and what does it show?... it shows heals are unreliable, sometimes healing zero if cast when green or if that close to zero health returned. I also cannot show the parse data which shows the 30% success rate in actually trying to CAST the spells due to interuptions/stuns/stifles.There is also no way to show how many times the direct heals SAVED me and the group... and how many times they were cast and since everyone was already on full failed. What this nerf does is completly remove the direct heals from the cast order - right now they are cast and only occasionally do they work. After the nerf there is no point in casting something you know will not be effective ratehr than only occasionally effective.The thing about direct heals is they DO NOT SCALE. with health - and if casting a direct heal is made to scale in such a way then it is definatly stepping on the healers. the way a paladin heals needs to be revamped to scale correctly. No potency/crit bonus but small reactive heals with small scale damage reduction.No other tank has to deal with having the majority of their abilities, fail so often due to interrupts/stuifles/stuns simply moving or just the fact since the healers got their first.

Jeal

08-08-2010, 12:10 PM

but boli with 70 crit bonus your heals are more powerful than a stoneskin right?! /sarcasm

Bruener

08-08-2010, 01:20 PM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>but boli with 70 crit bonus your heals are more powerful than a stoneskin right?! /sarcasm</blockquote>Lol. That whole "argument" for why heals shouldn't crit when compared to stoneskins is a complete joke. How about the fact that stoneskins will absorb ALL damage scaling up FOREVER no matter how much damage a mob does?

Boli32

08-08-2010, 01:29 PM

How about the fact a pally is mainly based around DIRECT heals, and the more damage we take the less effective they are. SO now heals never crit the tougher the fight the harder the hits the less effective our saves are.Scaling is the issue.. not critting.

Morgue

08-08-2010, 02:09 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about the fact a pally is mainly based around DIRECT heals, and the more damage we take the less effective they are. SO now heals never crit the tougher the fight the harder the hits the less effective our saves are.Scaling is the issue.. not critting.</blockquote>Great work Boli,Seems very well put together and conclusive to the opinion that crit healing removed is a bad idea, but I do not know if they will even listen after hearing the answers given at Fanfaire dev do seem convienced they have are all knowing in this situation. I think the arguement that Direct heals are less effective is a very good one. The game is designed in a manner to make direct heals an emergency or top off healing method, and when comparing Direct heals to reactives or wards one can only draw the conclusion that they are quite inferior. This atleast gives us some fuel to fire a counter arguement. Not that we needed any more. When paladins starting droping left and right, without being able to mitigate incoming damage like the other tanks, someone might get the point.-sam

Morgue

08-08-2010, 02:26 PM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>CONCLUSION!... my gear/skill <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> is OPnot my HEALS</blockquote>This and Class Envy may be what this all boils down to. SF's horrid itemization which is lazy programming and design, so the solution is even lazier coding? I think we deserve better.

Landiin

08-08-2010, 05:42 PM

Good job man! Now just to get the same data from the other tanks geared at your level so you have compare data. So you can prove losing heal crit will make you less survivable.

LivelyHound

08-09-2010, 12:11 PM

Seems to me that data, albeit paladin only, should be put in the in-testing forum thread also, or at least a link, as it is very likley to be ignored by everyone except us paladins if it is left here. However, i'll leave that decision up to boli as it's his data <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Yimway

08-09-2010, 12:46 PM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>IN CONCLUSION!... my gear/skill <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> is OPnot my HEALS</blockquote>Jeal, have you done any comparative parsing from test on the same encounter? If so, mind posting the side-by-side?

Tsunai

08-10-2010, 03:28 AM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=445259&post_id=5385497" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=44525...post_id=5385497</a> Name-calling and personal attacks are not welcome on these forums. Regards,

Jeal

08-18-2010, 09:51 AM

several different threads.. tons of information and well displayed arguements even in the face of trolls and we get zero feedback beyond this ability shouldn't crit because it doesn't scale the same as stoneskins do... stoneskins which don't scale at all since they block any amount of damage... sigh.

texmurphy

08-18-2010, 12:30 PM

Patch Notes August / 18 / 2010CLASS PROGRESSION / ABILITY CHANGESFightersFighter heals can no longer critically heal.Thank you, SOE......thank you for NOT listening to your community, again....thank you for NOT listening to your paying customers, again....thank you for NOT listening to reasons and arguments, again.I was a real fan of that game for a long time. Meantime, I'm not sure if my accounts will be still there by end of this year.

Cyrdemac

08-18-2010, 01:02 PM

Being nerfed, seeing our heals nerfed into uselessness, being blamed to be overpowered but never outhealing a healer myself because no T2 or T3 gear to do so isnt actually what bothers me.But being completly ignored as a paying customer is what bothers me. Well, if they dont need my money, they just achieved it.There where good times but mostly bad times with this clas, I survived them all, but this "we dont care what you say, we dont answer anyway so just stop talking to us and pay us humbly" behaviour is too much.I am leaving EQ2 after playing as a Paladin since Beta and cancelling my subscription as soon as the management site is up again.P.S. I forgot to mention this "please massa, dont hit me!" animation at casting Demonstration of Faith, our Ward..

Dimgl

08-18-2010, 01:20 PM

Hahaha.For those of you who PVP:There is an additional unstated nerf to our heals in PVP on top of the critical heal nerf.I went from ~7000 point heals to ~1800. That's about 7% of my max hp.Going full tilt I can't stop a single DPS from killing me.And I am certainly not winning any DPS races as a Paladin.Nevermind that combat now feels like I have effects off, despite running at max settings.I don't even have the heart to PVE. My account is now canceled. It runs until the 24th. Too short a time for the devs to take back the foolishness.

LivelyHound

08-18-2010, 02:19 PM

Lol yeah just noticed that too... a 1.8K heal when you have 28K hp ... I mean whats the point, and yes thats with all the healing aa's, once I unspec those I imagine my pvp heals will be quite laughable, well even more so than now. Whats most sad about that is it shows roughly what my heals will be like once I get all the potency gear I'm supposed to go for now :S because in the BG's my potency is 55% better than out of them. Futhermore , I just love logging in, looking at ma spells and seeing 8, wait no 9, of them with the immortal caption: "This effect cannot be critically applied" and then looking at the persona window seeing 120% crit, 50%crit bonus, and a base Heal Crit Bonus of 130%, all for naught and its not like im well geared. /sigh what a joke.EDIT: I'm starting to think soe have agrudge against me. I mean pre-SF my main was an illy for two years, and you saw what happened to them this expac. So I swapped back to my first ever EQ2 toon the Paladin for my main and now look whats happened <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> Guess I should choose Guardian as my main next, just to spite the local forum troll.

Brynhild

08-18-2010, 02:28 PM

I do PVP more than anything else, and our heals are now utterly useless in PVP. The time it takes to cast them the damage they heal has already been done to us.Give us 50% damage reduction or give us our heals back.I don't even want to pvp with the paladin any more as heals were a major major part of it because our dps is horrible on single targets.Even with 55% potency engaged in PVP it's a 2-3k heal.. and 3k ward.. [Removed for Content]?MAKE IT A 0.5s cast time with a 3s recast for every single heal/ward we have and make them uninterruptable and then you can leave it so it doesn't crit.

Crothe

08-19-2010, 12:39 AM

I logged in today did some instances and some raiding. It might not be the same level of raiding as Boli or others but thats not the point. This is the final straw for me. I have been a paladin since day 1 (or heading there with the fighter/crusader archs). I have lived through all of the ups and downs. The issue is not the massive healing reduction or the fact that my mitigation of spike damage is shot. Nope. The issue is SOE just does not listen. Instead of doing it the right way its always a half baked fix that breaks something else.SOE might not care that they are losing me as a player but they sure in hell will be missing the 1500 a year I spend in subscriptions (Yeah I have a few accounts what of it =P ) I would gladly pay twice that if SOE would actually listen to its subscriber base and fix things the right way but they don't. Its high time I found a game company that actually APPRECIATES its clients and doesn't focus on trying to make more money on "Free" to play options.I hope for the rest of you SOE finally realizes its products are dying because they don't manage them properly.Thats my 150,000 cents. Its been great playing with all of you.

Hikinami

08-19-2010, 12:43 AM

yay for new empty hotbar places <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Boli32

08-19-2010, 05:19 AM

I'll post some post nerf data soon but initial feedback is : boy did I actually *cast" it then?... my group heal fully AA speced and red adorned (so like +60% potency plus my 67% base potency stat) and with a fully geared gropup it made literrly *no* difference there were times I wasn;t sure it was actually cast untill I checked back in my logs.what's the point in casting something which makes no desernable difference to the outcome except waste power?

Brynhild

08-19-2010, 06:03 AM

Yeah this doesn't seem to affect other tanks as much since they aren't designed to heal, it's a direct slice and dice to paladins so much I don't want to solo with it any more. In a group with good healers, it doesn't matter, but then why choose a paladin for a tank? In a group with a not so good healer where a paladin could help heal a little is what it's supposed to be, and now that is ruined.

ruthlessG619

08-19-2010, 06:58 AM

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I must admit Atan that you seem to have been on a crusade to have Paladins nerfed for over 10 months now, I remember your posts from beta.If you roll a tank class that cannot heal then you cannot expect it to be able to heal.Paladins heal, it is a HUGE part of what makes them a Paladin.If a character has part of its makeup that it can heal then it is going to be able to solo certain places better / do certain low instances without a healer, it is just the way it is.Also can people please stop bringing up any non current zone as reference, it's total BS, there is no way I want a game balancing based on out of date zones.A huge part of MMO's for people is that they gte a kick out of improving their character little by little. Any nerf in an MMO is bad and makes people unhappy period.</blockquote>Atan is a cry baby guardian who wants to be the master tank and have every tank class grovel at his feet. Starting to sound like the tools on the old steel warriors boards who screamed murder every time another tank got something new in eq1....

JTEclipse

08-20-2010, 07:42 AM

The way I see it, they'd rather nerf other classes just to make the whiners feel like they're actually DOING something to fix so-called "issues". This last update was the BIGGEST joke ever. Way to take a classes defining abilities and throw them out the window. Thanks Sony.

Xelgad

08-20-2010, 06:52 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So... what do I suggest?First of all all the heals need to be less of a "need to spam" issue in order for the player experiance, somethign you can cast to increase your survibility but not needign to spam these abilities constantly in order to obtain the benefit from them.Secondly they need to be balanced and SCALE so they are as viable in raids as they are in herioc without making one of both overpowered.I shall draw your attention to the regenerating wards on blessing of the paladin as well as the group version on the crusader tree; they were perfectly in line in what a paladin was - a very small ward but one which was cast all the time - in essence it reduced damage by 250 but only every 5 seconds - a small but handy little ward which made us feel like real paladins again where we can do our job as we shoudl as well as "heal" at the same time.That is what we like - small healing bonuses that require little attention from us so we can contonue with the real role of tanking mobs.Suggestions:Holy AidChange to a 3-5 charge reactive heal with a SMALL damage reduction on for its duration.example current: 2,000-2,500 healSuggested reduction in heal to 5 charges of 200-250 with a 3% damage reduction. duration 30s recast 20s or somethingThe healing power reduced significantly but it has more "worth"; in herioc setting it will help out the healers but not make them redundant. In a raid setting it will reduce the massive damage spikes somewhat but at the same not make healers redundant and because it has a SMALL componant of damage reduction it will be cast regually for a minor healing power but mainly for the DR.SacramentIn all honesty no-one will miss this ability if it was to disappear altogether since it no longer crits. Instead remove it as a heal entirely and perhaps make it into a small HP buff, i.e. recast 5min increase max health by 5% for 30s and make all spells interuptable/cast on the move. Those are just a couple of random thoughts but hoenstly removing this ability is also in the mix - after the chage this won't appear on any paladins hotbar.PrayerYou should keep with the use I have and many others have to reduce the incoming damage on the GROUP in order to survive larger AoEs.Change its recast to 90s duration 15s - and have it "reduce all damage to group by 50% - if healer" so a paladin will work WITH the healers allowing them to survive far more powerful AoEs at close range. Similar to the guardian stoneskin ideal but more paladin (healer) helpful.You will gain same effect but not tred on healers toes by casting massive healing.Demonstration of FaithWe like the ward - we hate the casting time, it also generates most of our healing power. If you were to remove this spell completly from our hotbars paladin healing will halve. However I do not suggest anythgin as drastic - change it to : Increase mitigation of self against ALL damage by 2500 for 30s recast 60s and increase max health by 5%it still maintains our role of decreasing incoming damage spikes but it does not heal and removes it from the healing listLay on HandsChange to % based - that is all. Above all we want to heal.. but not spend all our time casting heals; work out exactly how much damage reduction you wish to give us by using heals and change our healing powers to act more like temp buffs granting a SMALLER heal benefit with a benefit that scales to the end game.</blockquote>First, let me reiterate that it's very important to us that abilities scale at a balanced rate. As I posted in the test feedback forum, that was really the primary reason for the heal crit change. It's a waste of time for us to balance abilities for a certain gear level if better gear next expansion is going to benefit some abilities more than others. Overall, I think the change has helped the situation to a degree, but we are still working on fine tuning it.It's very likely that Lay on Hands will become percent based in the future, and we'd like to change some of your other heals as well. However, instead of shifting to more damage reduction/mitigation abilities, we would rather increase heal amount, increase cooldowns, and, perhaps, reduce the casting time of your heals/ward. If we made those changes, casting your heals and ward every time they're up would result in lower total heals per second, but the abilities would be better for countering spike damage.Feedback on this general idea would be appreciated.

kiku

08-20-2010, 07:05 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So... what do I suggest?First of all all the heals need to be less of a "need to spam" issue in order for the player experiance, somethign you can cast to increase your survibility but not needign to spam these abilities constantly in order to obtain the benefit from them.Secondly they need to be balanced and SCALE so they are as viable in raids as they are in herioc without making one of both overpowered.I shall draw your attention to the regenerating wards on blessing of the paladin as well as the group version on the crusader tree; they were perfectly in line in what a paladin was - a very small ward but one which was cast all the time - in essence it reduced damage by 250 but only every 5 seconds - a small but handy little ward which made us feel like real paladins again where we can do our job as we shoudl as well as "heal" at the same time.That is what we like - small healing bonuses that require little attention from us so we can contonue with the real role of tanking mobs.Suggestions:Holy AidChange to a 3-5 charge reactive heal with a SMALL damage reduction on for its duration.example current: 2,000-2,500 healSuggested reduction in heal to 5 charges of 200-250 with a 3% damage reduction. duration 30s recast 20s or somethingThe healing power reduced significantly but it has more "worth"; in herioc setting it will help out the healers but not make them redundant. In a raid setting it will reduce the massive damage spikes somewhat but at the same not make healers redundant and because it has a SMALL componant of damage reduction it will be cast regually for a minor healing power but mainly for the DR.SacramentIn all honesty no-one will miss this ability if it was to disappear altogether since it no longer crits. Instead remove it as a heal entirely and perhaps make it into a small HP buff, i.e. recast 5min increase max health by 5% for 30s and make all spells interuptable/cast on the move. Those are just a couple of random thoughts but hoenstly removing this ability is also in the mix - after the chage this won't appear on any paladins hotbar.PrayerYou should keep with the use I have and many others have to reduce the incoming damage on the GROUP in order to survive larger AoEs.Change its recast to 90s duration 15s - and have it "reduce all damage to group by 50% - if healer" so a paladin will work WITH the healers allowing them to survive far more powerful AoEs at close range. Similar to the guardian stoneskin ideal but more paladin (healer) helpful.You will gain same effect but not tred on healers toes by casting massive healing.Demonstration of FaithWe like the ward - we hate the casting time, it also generates most of our healing power. If you were to remove this spell completly from our hotbars paladin healing will halve. However I do not suggest anythgin as drastic - change it to : Increase mitigation of self against ALL damage by 2500 for 30s recast 60s and increase max health by 5%it still maintains our role of decreasing incoming damage spikes but it does not heal and removes it from the healing listLay on HandsChange to % based - that is all. Above all we want to heal.. but not spend all our time casting heals; work out exactly how much damage reduction you wish to give us by using heals and change our healing powers to act more like temp buffs granting a SMALLER heal benefit with a benefit that scales to the end game.</blockquote>First, let me reiterate that it's very important to us that abilities scale at a balanced rate. As I posted in the test feedback forum, that was really the primary reason for the heal crit change. It's a waste of time for us to balance abilities for a certain gear level if better gear next expansion is going to benefit some abilities more than others. Overall, I think the change has helped the situation to a degree, but we are still working on fine tuning it.It's very likely that Lay on Hands will become percent based in the future, and we'd like to change some of your other heals as well. However, instead of shifting to more damage reduction/mitigation abilities, we would rather increase heal amount, increase cooldowns, and, perhaps, reduce the casting time of your heals/ward. If we made those changes, casting your heals and ward every time they're up would result in lower total heals per second, but the abilities would be better for countering spike damage.Feedback on this general idea would be appreciated.</blockquote>Just please stop screwing with our heals. You already nerfed them just leave em alone already why nerf them even more. I dont want 90 second reuse on group heals or some crap like that [Removed for Content].If you want to increase them a little to make up for the huge nerf fine. But dont make the recast longer, and heal amount more. I enjoy casting my group heal, or ward when its up. I help the group out. Thats supposed to be our utility. Please just stop already.

Morgue

08-20-2010, 07:16 PM

Jeal

08-20-2010, 07:28 PM

considering other tanks don't get interrupted while using their defensive abilities it would be very appropriate to do the same for our heals some small regenerating amounts attached to our direct heals would still be much preferred.however a high heal amount instant cast (un-interruptable) heal with a cool down that is a slightly longer than it is now would be a huge help in the spike prevention area which is what we really need

Seomon

08-20-2010, 07:58 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's very likely that Lay on Hands will become percent based in the future, and we'd like to change some of your other heals as well. However, instead of shifting to more damage reduction/mitigation abilities, we would rather increase heal amount, increase cooldowns, and, perhaps, reduce the casting time of your heals/ward. If we made those changes, casting your heals and ward every time they're up would result in lower total heals per second, but the abilities would be better for countering spike damage.</blockquote>As for what you're looking for, here's my take on it as an initial look off the top of my head. Keep in mind, we need to compare our heals to the versatility of stoneskins. Stoneskins can either mitigate a lot of damage or very little damage depending on the situation, which is easier to balance because they can be time based and the situation (like raid or group) will dictate the amount of damage that is mitigated. Heals on the other hand, for a fighting class like the Paladin, is a little harder, since the same amount will be healed in raids as it in groups. Percentage based will definitely put heals where the Devs want them to be, but they also need to be balanced so that they're not worthless in raids as the current heals are.As for the two Paladin "Emergencies", they definitely need help. Lay of Hands has always needed to be a straight 100% heal and more. Lay of Hands should heal for 100% plus a reactive of 5 procs with a 20% heal with a 20 second duration. Also, Devout Sacrament needs to be changed from a medium heal to a medium heal of 30% plus a reactive of 5 procs of at least 10% a proc with the same 20 sec duration. Lay of Hands would be at a 5 minute recast and Devout Sacrament at a 3 minute recast.As for the normal heals, they currently do way too little to even be useful anymore, and we don't need to be spamming them all the time, so changing them to percent based and insta-cast with a longer reuse timer would be more preferable since they would be useful to mitigate spike damage. The group heal would be nice to be kept at a lower percentage of say 15%, but still keep it's current reuse in order to not affect our group utility. The single target heal and ward being 30% and 40% respectively but on 45 sec and 1 minute recasts would be good.So there's my feedback, we look forward to yours.Edit to add: Crusader Spells and Heals should not be interruptible, as we are supposed to be taking damage, and learn how to cast while being beat on. They should only be as interruptible as combat arts are.

kiku

08-20-2010, 10:24 PM

allow are spells to cast on the move heals included.

Stonestrong

08-21-2010, 12:50 AM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>considering other tanks don't get interrupted while using their defensive abilities it would be very appropriate to do the same for our heals some small regenerating amounts attached to our direct heals would still be much preferred.however a high heal amount instant cast (un-interruptable) heal with a cool down that is a slightly longer than it is now would be a huge help in the spike prevention area which is what we really need</blockquote>This.

Dimgl

08-21-2010, 02:11 AM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>First, let me reiterate that it's very important to us that abilities scale at a balanced rate. As I posted in the test feedback forum, that was really the primary reason for the heal crit change. It's a waste of time for us to balance abilities for a certain gear level if better gear next expansion is going to benefit some abilities more than others. Overall, I think the change has helped the situation to a degree, but we are still working on fine tuning it.It's very likely that Lay on Hands will become percent based in the future, and we'd like to change some of your other heals as well. However, instead of shifting to more damage reduction/mitigation abilities, we would rather increase heal amount, increase cooldowns, and, perhaps, reduce the casting time of your heals/ward. If we made those changes, casting your heals and ward every time they're up would result in lower total heals per second, but the abilities would be better for countering spike damage.Feedback on this general idea would be appreciated.</blockquote>I am very glad to see that the developers are finally talking to Paladins. It gives me hope that reactivating my subscription may be something that could happen.My ideas can be read here: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=484915#5395962" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...=484915#5395962</a>I entreat you to be very careful with percentage heals, and also to be careful with the idea of "lower total heals per second." Right now Paladins are in a very tough place, and lowering our HPS any further would really be cataclysmic to our gameplay. Paladins need to be able to heal, and they need to be able to heal in a fashion that is competitive with healers. Competitive does not mean we need to have the HPS of healers, but we really do need to have 1/3 or so of the output of a real healer. Right now, especially in a PVP setting, we are healing for less with our heals than some druids are capable of putting out per tick of their HoTs.While changing Paladin mechanics to perform as more of an anti-spike measure may help make up some of the ground we just lost as main tanks, if it comes at the cost of our ability to pump HPS then we will fall ever further behind in roles where we are not tanking. Believe it or not, I did main heal through some weak heroic content. My current limit is ERH, and it requires the other tank have a few self-heals for spikes, and have their own cure trauma potions. I also main heal in PVP BGs, my record of 1.5m (though I had less than 20k damage) through a gears of Klakanon earned me the thanks and respect of my entire team. Paladins have roles outside of main tanking, and balancing their only utility around MTing would be dangerous for a class that has always has the option of checking secondary healer in the LFG window.Paladins bring no other utility than their healing to groups, and changing all Paladin heals into anti-spike/emergency type moves will place them into a role that does not gel smoothly with healers/other tanks. Raids tend to carry one MT, and it can't be "you, the Paladin" all the time. Similarly when grouping with other tanks for heroic content it is (was) easy to slip into a backup tank/support role, and continue protecting the group through heals. This was because our 3 core heals let us chip in in a continuous and smooth fashion. Our group heal was especially helpful in assisting shamans and clerics who tend to suffer in the spike group healing.Should we get changed into longer cooldown anti-spikes, using your anti-spike heals at the right time such that they're efficient, and won't simply be preempted by the MT's own timers, or a heal bomb incoming from other healers will be difficult. This will only be incredibly frustrating if we find ourselves in a place where we exhaust our heal timers to minimal effect and have nothing else to offer due to cooldowns, something that will definitely happen in the modern raid where MTs are constantly healbombed.The three core heals, Holy Aid, Demonstration of Faith, and Prayer of Healing really need to recover all or most of what they were. Devout Sacrament, Lay on Hands, and Arch Heal all need to be changed, as they all had issues of their own.I've always wished that Arch Heal was a true intelligently arcing heal, a chain heal of sorts, but at this point I'd rather see the AA become a dedicated healer AA that returned us some/most/all of our former glory. Devout Sacrament and LoH are truly excessive and do deserve to be changed in any system where critical healing works for them, which hopefully we are returning to for Paladins.

TheSpin

08-21-2010, 03:24 AM

In the spirit of Paladins.... Self heals are NOT supposed to be the way a paladin survives. Paladins are supposed to help others. I know this is a geeky argument, but a true RP type paladin would probably not even use Lay on Hands on himself, but save it for those in need. I think they should get self buffs to increase their surviveability and their heals should be more of a group oriented utility rather than a self survival tool.

Wurm

08-21-2010, 06:06 AM

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote>In the spirit of Paladins.... Self heals are NOT supposed to be the way a paladin survives. Paladins are supposed to help others. I know this is a geeky argument, but a true RP type paladin would probably not even use Lay on Hands on himself, but save it for those in need. I think they should get self buffs to increase their surviveability and their heals should be more of a group oriented utility rather than a self survival tool.</blockquote>Ummm no. 6 years in, I'd rather not be relearning my class again thank you very much.And from a RP perspective, a Paladin would use all of his tools in a way to defeat evil, including using his LOH to keep himself alive. And then use his resurrection to save any of his compatriots who died. No one survives if the Paladin at the front line goes down.

Hikinami

08-21-2010, 07:18 AM

For the Rp side-topic: Are you an avenger or a sentry? ask that and then you'll know how you use your heals as an rp paladin. There's more than one way to Crusade and there's more than one God to serve too.Now the important stuff:I think Dimglow brought up a good point. Our utility as semi-healers is all we have outside of tanking and a reason a lot of non-raid paladins play I think. I remember back in Kos and EoF before I was a raider how I'd slip into that assist role of tossing heals and intercept on a better geared tank to help out. Since I couldn't crank out crazy dps back then it made me feel like I was helping instead of just being a tag along for pitty or even worse holding back the group.I started raiding in Late RoK/TSO and my outlook has totally changed. We need major spike tools since I ended up taking my heals off after this GU to really get a feel for it and [Removed for Content] all I had was stonewall which is...uuhh stonewall. That's it for my class defining abilities. Lay on hands helped a bit and oh boy I can't tell you how happy I am to hear you say it might finally be a percentage heal Xelgad.I think Boli and Jeall's suggestions are pretty spot on for what we need. Though increasing the heal amounts and reuse and lowering the cast time majorly would still help some I think we need to swap just how our heals work to really get them to fulfill what they should be doing as our class defining skills without being overpowered or needing to be tweaked all the time due to gear changes. My personal beefs with our skills are:Prayer of healing needs to be able to help a group after a hard aoe and make sure we don't all die.Sacrament I think needs some major tweaks somehow. I never really used it even when it could crit really. The cast time just seemed to always get it interupted. If anything got changed into a more anti-spike skill instead of a heal I'd love for it to be this sucker.I loved Demonstration when it managed to last for a couple hits on a raid mob. I don't even have a clue how to balance that for all types of play so raid geared pallys don't trivalize stuff in heroic play.I know Castigate isn't a heal so maybe I'm on a tangent and just suck at timing but I never get it off in time to cure before my healers cure me.Anyway thanks again for letting us know you're looking at stuff Xelgad. My QQ was pretty strong after the GU but I'm not so depressed now. Hope we can get this fixed.

Valphine

08-21-2010, 11:51 AM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>So... what do I suggest?First of all all the heals need to be less of a "need to spam" issue in order for the player experiance, somethign you can cast to increase your survibility but not needign to spam these abilities constantly in order to obtain the benefit from them.Secondly they need to be balanced and SCALE so they are as viable in raids as they are in herioc without making one of both overpowered.I shall draw your attention to the regenerating wards on blessing of the paladin as well as the group version on the crusader tree; they were perfectly in line in what a paladin was - a very small ward but one which was cast all the time - in essence it reduced damage by 250 but only every 5 seconds - a small but handy little ward which made us feel like real paladins again where we can do our job as we shoudl as well as "heal" at the same time.That is what we like - small healing bonuses that require little attention from us so we can contonue with the real role of tanking mobs.Suggestions:Holy AidChange to a 3-5 charge reactive heal with a SMALL damage reduction on for its duration.example current: 2,000-2,500 healSuggested reduction in heal to 5 charges of 200-250 with a 3% damage reduction. duration 30s recast 20s or somethingThe healing power reduced significantly but it has more "worth"; in herioc setting it will help out the healers but not make them redundant. In a raid setting it will reduce the massive damage spikes somewhat but at the same not make healers redundant and because it has a SMALL componant of damage reduction it will be cast regually for a minor healing power but mainly for the DR.SacramentIn all honesty no-one will miss this ability if it was to disappear altogether since it no longer crits. Instead remove it as a heal entirely and perhaps make it into a small HP buff, i.e. recast 5min increase max health by 5% for 30s and make all spells interuptable/cast on the move. Those are just a couple of random thoughts but hoenstly removing this ability is also in the mix - after the chage this won't appear on any paladins hotbar.PrayerYou should keep with the use I have and many others have to reduce the incoming damage on the GROUP in order to survive larger AoEs.Change its recast to 90s duration 15s - and have it "reduce all damage to group by 50% - if healer" so a paladin will work WITH the healers allowing them to survive far more powerful AoEs at close range. Similar to the guardian stoneskin ideal but more paladin (healer) helpful.You will gain same effect but not tred on healers toes by casting massive healing.Demonstration of FaithWe like the ward - we hate the casting time, it also generates most of our healing power. If you were to remove this spell completly from our hotbars paladin healing will halve. However I do not suggest anythgin as drastic - change it to : Increase mitigation of self against ALL damage by 2500 for 30s recast 60s and increase max health by 5%it still maintains our role of decreasing incoming damage spikes but it does not heal and removes it from the healing listLay on HandsChange to % based - that is all. Above all we want to heal.. but not spend all our time casting heals; work out exactly how much damage reduction you wish to give us by using heals and change our healing powers to act more like temp buffs granting a SMALLER heal benefit with a benefit that scales to the end game.</blockquote>First, let me reiterate that it's very important to us that abilities scale at a balanced rate. As I posted in the test feedback forum, that was really the primary reason for the heal crit change. It's a waste of time for us to balance abilities for a certain gear level if better gear next expansion is going to benefit some abilities more than others. Overall, I think the change has helped the situation to a degree, but we are still working on fine tuning it.It's very likely that Lay on Hands will become percent based in the future, and we'd like to change some of your other heals as well. However, instead of shifting to more damage reduction/mitigation abilities, we would rather increase heal amount, increase cooldowns, and, perhaps, reduce the casting time of your heals/ward. If we made those changes, casting your heals and ward every time they're up would result in lower total heals per second, but the abilities would be better for countering spike damage.Feedback on this general idea would be appreciated.</blockquote>Good! there is actally thoughts about improvments for Paladins, but when u say in the future, I hope you dont mean like next GU? this realy need too happen asap!

Edminime

08-21-2010, 01:12 PM

I like where Jeal and Boli are going with this. 3 things I'ld like to see is all Paladin heals cast will moving, loh 100% heal and Sacrament changed to a ward ( wards for a 50% of incoming damage for X amount of time).

Morgue

08-21-2010, 02:17 PM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>considering other tanks don't get interrupted while using their defensive abilities it would be very appropriate to do the same for our heals some small regenerating amounts attached to our direct heals would still be much preferred.however a high heal amount instant cast (un-interruptable) heal with a cool down that is a slightly longer than it is now would be a huge help in the spike prevention area which is what we really need</blockquote> This.</blockquote>Even after making my own suggestions, this does seem like the main issue with paladin heals currently, and I do agree with Jeal and Boli as they have the best paladin base of knowledge to draw from. Sacrament as an Adrenaline styled buff is a interesting idea; however, I understand that adrenaline will soon be "fixed". This may mean that we would face a new nerf shortly after a "fix".Honestly I hope you, the devs, get a better fix on itemization in the future, so we can avoid broad blanket nerfs of this nature again.

Maergoth

08-21-2010, 02:36 PM

I said it before in a much longer post.Our heals don't need to be absolutely amazing in the AMOUNT they heal as long as we aren't RELYING on getting lucky when they land.If they become FAST cast and uninterruptable (even by moving), either through AAs or otherwise, they will be useful. Clerics, druids, shaman.. they are all healers. They are meant to sustain a tank. If you don't want us to sustain ourselves, why model our heals loosely on how theirs works? They are meant to fill different roles, make our heals work differently.Combat art heals plz, thanks.And thanks for reading.

dreiden

08-21-2010, 07:44 PM

A few ideas to balance out the heals.Sacrement - same old cast time but uninteruptable, instead of a pure heal make it a short duration(5seconds or so) ward, most of the time i finish casting it now the healer has allready healed me.Demonstration of faith - faster cast time, Higher ward amount, Longer recast time.Lay on hands - if it is made precentage based there will be no more upgrades to this ability. Instead increase the healed amount to compensate for loss of crit heal and add 1 or 2 charges of stonewall.

Jeal

08-22-2010, 12:42 PM

if indeed you do increase the re cast time on these heals to compesane for larger heal amounts please don't forget to adjust the aa's that decrease cast time as they are scaled for much lower recasts1!! <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Boli32

08-22-2010, 12:47 PM

What I woudl reqally love to see is if you are changing all our heals to recast once every 60-90s but be much larger give addiational benefits, a 1 shot stoneskin after every heal will be perfect... and scale more towards the raid. whereas instance and solo it woudl be negigable. This will mean if we do heal and "miss" due to other heals getting there fgirst it still has some beenfit.

NANEEJE

08-22-2010, 01:56 PM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>considering other tanks don't get interrupted while using their defensive abilities it would be very appropriate to do the same for our heals some small regenerating amounts attached to our direct heals would still be much preferred.however a high heal amount instant cast (un-interruptable) heal with a cool down that is a slightly longer than it is now would be a huge help in the spike prevention area which is what we really need</blockquote> This. </blockquote> Since Moors expansion, spike prevention has been key, I completely agree with this post and feel it needs to be repeated. Thusly repeated<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Please read.

Crono

08-22-2010, 10:28 PM

I seems the idea of the update was to take the edge off the SKs and so Sony got out there neft sword and went...SK...SK...SK...and then smacked the hell out of the palidins instead. About what I have come to expect from the geniunes at Sony. Here is the thing crit healing is important to pallidins if you are going to take it away you have to give us something we can work with. The SKs have dps like death touch to make of for the lack of healing... without something we will just be the next Guardian class except we can't DPS/taunt like any other tank and now can't heal either.Thanks Sony,-Crono.Vox

Vlahkmaak

08-23-2010, 12:08 AM

Paladins cannot DPS - are you serious? My paladin has absolute crap gear compared to my guardian and NO t9 raid gear. I can easily out parse my guardian. Last night none of our brawlers/SKs were on for the Sara fight in labs so I sat my guard MT out and brought in my pally (no t9 raid geaar mind you) and I stood up like a champ. I was able to snap aggro off the zerker easy every script change becuae our Holy Ground is BETTER than guardian reinforcement and is up ALOT faster.During the zerkers time on target I was still able to solo a bush and helped top off the new mages in the dps group with my wards and direct heals becuase he is new to raiding and had no crit mit. I had to use Lay hands 1x on myself because as a doorf I seem to get punted at AOE time farther than my troll does and got bounced off a wall at switch and away from the MT healers. Just a mystic and templar healing the zerker and I btw. I have never seen the ceiling in that fight on my troll but the dorf gets punted like a football.The crit heal change sucks for our pvp survivability and BG survivability but it in NO WAY affected my tanking ability - why? Becuase HEALERS are there to heal. Even IMPROPERLY geared I was at 75% mitigation and 70% avoidance - thats near = to my guardian. HP were off by alot but that is due to gear. This change did not affect our tanking abilities. Paladins can still obtain = mitigation, avoidance, and oh yhea, it is MUCH easier to top block chance on a paladin than a guardian. Also the constant 15% damage reduction is not bad either is it?

Odys

08-23-2010, 01:17 AM

I have a bay paladin (46/107aa) and if i m correct you guys get an AA that is specifically devoted either to heal crit bonus or to heal crit %.Hilarious contracdiction.

Crono

08-23-2010, 01:42 AM

Perhaps you don't know but there are more things in this game then raiding... I am speaking about PVP. When you are pvping, healing and crit heal is very important to a paladin (more then any other tank class). The reason why is because we don't have the same amount of AOE taught, or the ability to do fast dps like harm touch. So our strat is to keep healed up and burn our opponents out of power. The SKs are the ones that people are complaining about being too strong and the guardians being too weak. So why the hell did Sony gut paladins... It's this kind of spastic, knee jerk, big dumb mallet "class balancing" that makes people reconsider game subscriptions. -crono.vox

Vlahkmaak

08-23-2010, 02:26 AM

<cite>Crono wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps you don't know but there are more things in this game then raiding... I am speaking about PVP. When you are pvping, healing and crit heal is very important to a paladin (more then any other tank class). The reason why is because we don't have the same amount of AOE taught, or the ability to do fast dps like harm touch. So our strat is to keep healed up and burn our opponents out of power. The SKs are the ones that people are complaining about being too strong and the guardians being too weak. So why the hell did Sony gut paladins... It's this kind of spastic, knee jerk, big dumb mallet "class balancing" that makes people reconsider game subscriptions. -crono.vox</blockquote>I am not saying I agree with the change at all. I wholeheartedly disagreed with the change in the guardian forums and in the feedback thread. I am stating it did not affect my paladin's ability to tank though.For PVP we ahve some great tools on our pallies. Amends is great on your healer - works just like moderate. you can also quickly switch it to anyone in your grp getting spiked. Holy ground is up like every 45 seconds - thats alot of aoe aggro especially when cast with our multitude of blue aoe abilities. Our grp taunt recast is quick, has a debuff, and just take a look at the AGI endline for SF. I believe I have pretty solid AOE aggro control on my pally in pvp. Of course the zone wide force target like SKs get is slightly more desirable......

Valphine

08-23-2010, 03:49 AM

<cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have a bay paladin (46/107aa) and if i m correct you guys get an AA that is specifically devoted either to heal crit bonus or to heal crit %.Hilarious contracdiction.</blockquote>Crit bouns was change to base heal amount, and heal crit was taken away when they change melee crit, spell crit & heal crit etc too just Crit.

Boli32

08-23-2010, 05:15 AM

I think its best to wait to see what plans the devs have for us before we all jump on the OMG THIS SUCKS" bandwagon. Afteralll the odds of us changing a devs mind is 1 in 10,000 - the best we can do is dicuss our healing spells, and possible options for a change.

Morgue

08-23-2010, 12:27 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think its best to wait to see what plans the devs have for us before we all jump on the OMG THIS SUCKS" bandwagon. Afteralll the odds of us changing a devs mind is 1 in 10,000 - the best we can do is dicuss our healing spells, and possible options for a change.</blockquote>I agree Boli. Do not think we can affect thier opinions on the crit change, but we can affect the overall out come.

Ryai

08-23-2010, 02:30 PM

<cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think its best to wait to see what plans the devs have for us before we all jump on the OMG THIS SUCKS" bandwagon. Afteralll the odds of us changing a devs mind is 1 in 10,000 - the best we can do is dicuss our healing spells, and possible options for a change.</blockquote>I agree Boli. Do not think we can affect thier opinions on the crit change, but we can affect the overall out come.</blockquote>Yep, the change is done.My tanking abilities are the same, but now there is no point in casting any heals. I used to cover the party so the healer could focus more on me. I guess now I just focus on DPS for now. Hopefully they will make our heals useful again at some point. Until then, I have some AA's I need to figure out what to do with...

Loxus

08-23-2010, 03:23 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>...but we are still working on fine tuning it.It's very likely that Lay on Hands will become percent based in the future, (I can live with that as long as the master I is substantial ~80%+ @ 5 mins. Are you looking at making it self only or would it be still castable on others?) and we'd like to change some of your other heals as well. However, instead of shifting to more damage reduction/mitigation abilities,we would rather increase heal amount (they must increase, that's a given),increase cooldowns (Not sure about this, i think we'd have to see what the increases are first and if they can be interupted. Personally I'd like to see decreases (being completely selfish), but I can wait to see what you have in mind),and, perhaps, reduce the casting time of your heals/ward (Casting time of the ward has to decrease A LOT conversely, the ward amount needs to also increase ~50% if not more, dependent on refresh. Another avenue you "may" choose look at is if this remains castable on others that might have some interesting possibilities IE, Chance at a single target trauma cure, chance at intercept if cast on another, or de-hate proc if not a fighter, for some "off the top of the head" ideas. Notwithstanding, it would still be dependant on cast time/recast/amounts/interuptability - I think I'd rather keep it a pure beefy ward though. Non-interuptable for all heals would be a very welcome change in the end.Just ideas, Boli or Jeal might be better suited to give you actual numbers. I'd like to see them as useful for group (not asking to solo heal groups) and raids though that helps keep us a viable option for MT/OT. I'm kinda the only MT our guild has. It would truly suck if we have to shut down raiding dependent on finding a comperable Guardian.Our group-heal is a very close one to my heart.If we made those changes, casting your heals and ward every time they're up would result in lower total heals per second, but the abilities would be better for countering spike damage.Of course this is also dependent on how badly you're goin to slam our mitigation amounts to compensate. Feedback on this general idea would be appreciated.</blockquote>

Boli32

08-23-2010, 03:23 PM

Well... according to the redname earlier on they are "looking into it"... as they pretty much admitted.. in a roundabout way.. they fked up and realised pallys got screwed :/.But its done.. can't chance their mind.. just offer suggestions on what tweaks could be with the new and "improved" none heal crit system. Maybe they'll read them... just have to live with it; no other tanks lost 5 abilities due to the chance to "useless".Expect changes in new expansion I reckon would be a lot sooner if a dev played a pally tho hard to explain *what's* wrong from a pure numbers point of view.. its only when you play them do you realise the deficiencies. and I have tried to give as much feedback on it as possible on this thread.

Boethius_Permafrost

08-23-2010, 06:12 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>First, let me reiterate that it's very important to us that abilities scale at a balanced rate. However, instead of shifting to more damage reduction/mitigation abilities, we would rather increase heal amount, increase cooldowns, and, perhaps, reduce the casting time of your heals/ward.Feedback on this general idea would be appreciated.</blockquote>That solution is completely not capable of scaling. At all.Damage reduction/avoidance abilities like stoneskin vary by orders of magnitude between trivial instances, hard instances, and raids -- if you measure them by a numeric score like "amount healed," but it always does pretty much the same thing. That would be one example of an ability which works like it's supposed to, at about the same relative effectiveness, against many different power levels of opponent. That's scaling, and that's what Boli is getting at.

Shareana

08-23-2010, 06:31 PM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=445320&post_id=5399042" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=44532...post_id=5399042</a> We do not call for nerfs to other classes please. Keep the posts constructive.

Jeal

08-23-2010, 06:57 PM

i've thought about it.. and if you plan on scaling heals to a reasonable level for each re-occuring tier i just don't see how it can be done without almost all of them being percentage based... if crit is never going to affect heals they will simply be underpowered for high end raiders no matter what.. with 40k+ hp, bonus was allowing heals to be somewhat useful if i could ever land one in time without being interruptedthe percentage i would give for each heal would be20-30% for holy aid20-25% for prayer of healing30-40% for demonstration of faith60-70% for sacrament of bayle90-100% for lay on handsits hard for me to imagine any amount you add to the actual heals being useful to a fully buffed mt paladin.. which is.. the ideal ending point gear and progression wise for the class... i don't know maybe you'll surprise me and come up with something useful but.. without our heals doing that range of healing/un-interruptable (with increased cool downs as you suggest) or adding some other mitigating ability attachment, they won't get the job done :/.

Boli32

08-23-2010, 08:31 PM

The trick with *all* heals that need to be taken into account is they need to be effective somewhat against raid content; not overpowered solo and does not replace a healer in herioc I have put down a few ideas on our single target heal which will allow them to SCALE from solo to raid as a semi spike ability based around healing. It will not give massive immunity time but allow the paladin to deal with spike damage at a reduced recast but faster cast speed.Idea 1:Perhaps if they scaled to the incoming damage instead of relative to our health?Holy Aid Recast: 90s Duration: 10s Casting: InstantInstantly heal Paladin xxxx amount (at *least* 10k)Whilst active Paladin will heal 20% of incoming damage. - bringing myth spell to 30%This will mean it'll scale to the incoming attack so *if* we are no longer warded (high chance if we just took a massive damage spike needing a heal) it will reduce the subsequent incoming damage spikes.Idea 2:As mentioned before a single trigger Stoneskin; dealing with solo and herioc content without a healer a single stoneskin matters little especially only 1 every 90s. In raids tho it will be a anti spike ability.Holy AidRecast 90s, Duration: 10s Casting InstantInstantly heal Paladin xxxx amount (at *least* 10k+)Paladin will block next attackIdea 3:A more healer centric "semi buff"; sort of a little heal to get things going, The paladin "aiding" the priest. Note the second part will not be able to used in no healer/solo contentHoly AidRecast 90s, Duration: 10s Casting InstantPaladin heals xxxx (5k or so ?)The next PRIEST heal/reactive/ward which lands in excess of the Paladin heal will be increased by 200%Idea: 4Similar to the above but more definedHoly AidRecast 90s, Duration: 10s Casting InstantTarget Priest onlyIncreases heal potency of priest by 50%Idea: 5This will scale against all content but will not scale through the levels, perhaps with a SMALL Regen (like 5-8 intilaly and 100-150 at level 90 (200 with potency) so the spell will be able to be upgraded (since we already have the spell line anyways <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)Holy AidRecast 90s, Duration: 10s Casting Instant Increases heal potency of priest by 50%The next attack over 10% of the Paladin health will heal for the damage the paladin would have taken.----Whilst we actually get our GROUP heal before our ward and single target heal I think this spell shoudl move more from the group heal to the group protect perhaps with a healing componant to it perhaps not.Lay on hands pretty much needs to be a 100% and LONG recast heal with ZERO power. Compare it to the SK alternative where it is not only a powerful heal (comparable to a the now nerfed Paladin's LoH ability) but also deals significant damage for NO POWER.Sacrament needs to be altered into a powerful heal (but not as powerful as Lay on hands) perhaps with a small buff portion to it. the cast speed NEEDS to be altered, if you can get the parse data from all the servers have a closer look at the interupt rate of this ability WHILST IN COMBAT.Demonstration of faith I forsee as longer duration buff, ideally a ward perhaps not as powerful as live but one we do not have to continually cast but gives beenfits suitable to raiders as well as group content (increase heals on paladin whilst up?)And so we come to Arch Heal. If this was 16% heal potency to the paladin this will be ideal it will also open the tree to more thought from specing AA in it... why that number?.. well that is from the CRUSADER tree and its an ability SKs neither want or need - alter the Legionares focus AA to something BOTH crusaders would considerNo doubt such a discussion would come later if you changed it.Anyways just giving ideas getting those dev creatives jiuces flowing.. no doubt this post will be flamed to some degree but paladins have always wanted BALANCE and ability to use our defensive abilities (heals) against all tiers of content without them being too overpowering solo and group is very much at the forefront of our thinking.

Vlahkmaak

08-23-2010, 08:49 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well... according to the redname earlier on they are "looking into it"... as they pretty much admitted.. in a roundabout way.. they fked up and realised pallys got screwed :/.But its done.. can't chance their mind.. just offer suggestions on what tweaks could be with the new and "improved" none heal crit system. Maybe they'll read them... just have to live with it; no other tanks lost 5 abilities due to the chance to "useless".Expect changes in new expansion I reckon would be a lot sooner if a dev played a pally tho hard to explain *what's* wrong from a pure numbers point of view.. its only when you play them do you realise the deficiencies. and I have tried to give as much feedback on it as possible on this thread.</blockquote>Better yet - they could show good faith to the tanking community and roll back the change as nowhere on any of the feedbacks was the change requested by a vocal majority of tanks as anything needing to be fixed. They should let it ride out the rest of the x-pac knowing pally heals are a bit strong and focus on the real class changes they need to be working on. Then after buffing up the respective tanks that need tweaking they can enter the next Xpac making mobs alot tougher and scale the encounters up instead of de-scaling tank P and Z and trying to jump start tank G to bring it up to performace lvls of tank class S. Tanks M and B left out of this equation for ease o illustration.Paladins just have to many heal AA choices for them not to be viable speccing options.

Dimgl

08-24-2010, 02:43 AM

I find it hard to believe that people are suggesting we trade out a 5s recast 7k heal (of the past) for a 90s recast ability that will effectively nullify 1-2 attacks at most.Please remember that the game is not all raiding. Please remember that Paladins are not always main tanks. Please remember some people actually rolled Paladins because they wanted to be able to heal others.There is/was nothing wrong with the 3 core heals Paladins had. Yes, our timers were busted and had questionable utility. But the very base of the Paladin healing mechanic was quite good.Trying to change our heals, which are already class defining, into weaker copies of what other tanks already have will only leave Paladins completely flavorless and weaker than the tanks being copied.

Cyrdemac

08-24-2010, 04:06 AM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well... according to the redname earlier on they are "looking into it"... as they pretty much admitted.. in a roundabout way.. they fked up and realised pallys got screwed :/.But its done.. can't chance their mind.. just offer suggestions on what tweaks could be with the new and "improved" none heal crit system. Maybe they'll read them... just have to live with it; no other tanks lost 5 abilities due to the chance to "useless".Expect changes in new expansion I reckon would be a lot sooner if a dev played a pally tho hard to explain *what's* wrong from a pure numbers point of view.. its only when you play them do you realise the deficiencies. and I have tried to give as much feedback on it as possible on this thread.</blockquote>Overall, I would agree. But that they "forgot" Paladins in the first place, as they implented their "fix" without even listening or answering to the outraging community, worries me. I still have my account cancelled and until I finally SEE the change Xelgad is proposing, I wont reactivate it.Implementing a global minor nerf to fighters and a serious nerf to Paladins without even reacting and then giving us cookies afterwards to stay on, was the wrong way. First find solutions, THEN start the change.Its like reducing all Guardians stoneskins by 70% and telling them to hold on, until they find and implement a solution.

Marcusaval

08-24-2010, 06:06 AM

Marcusaval

08-24-2010, 06:11 AM

Boethius_Permafrost

08-24-2010, 01:12 PM

It would be entirely reasonable for the heals to have different effects if cast on others, or self. If target is other then work normally for full effect. If target is self, apply a temp buff with some percentage bonus to incoming healing but reduce the heal amount of this spell;This way, the paladins heals would scale to the content (by scaling to the amount of incoming healing) and be effective via improving the effectiveness of the real healers, which fixes the made-up problem of paladins solo-healing challenging instances. The real problem is that some instances are too easy; or that there is too large a gap between casual and raid content and power levels. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

lollipop

08-24-2010, 09:25 PM

<cite>Kemt@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I find it hard to believe that people are suggesting we trade out a 5s recast 7k heal (of the past) for a 90s recast ability that will effectively nullify 1-2 attacks at most.Please remember that the game is not all raiding. Please remember that Paladins are not always main tanks. Please remember some people actually rolled Paladins because they wanted to be able to heal others.There is/was nothing wrong with the 3 core heals Paladins had. Yes, our timers were busted and had questionable utility. But the very base of the Paladin healing mechanic was quite good.Trying to change our heals, which are already class defining, into weaker copies of what other tanks already have will only leave Paladins completely flavorless and weaker than the tanks being copied.</blockquote>I agree with this, some of these suggestions will nerf pally even more so then it is now. I mean [Removed for Content]. Dont take away the ability to heal for stupid 90 second cool downs. Some people do play to help our groups get green after aoe, to help the priest heal us ect.

Edminime

08-24-2010, 10:08 PM

As I posted befor there would be only 3 things I would liked changed is all Paladin heals cast will moving, loh 100% heal and devout Sacrament changed to a ward ( wards for a 50% of incoming damage for X amount of time).

Maielle

08-25-2010, 07:38 AM

So basically, until our heals are "fixed", we have to readjust how we play.... Oh, and then when they are reworked we get to do it all over again. Awesome.

Jeal

08-25-2010, 07:51 AM

just so its clear.. 90s cool downs on heals are unacceptable no matter how much the heal is increased... thats just overkill.. only heals that should be in that range are sacrament and lay on hands

Boli32

08-25-2010, 08:26 AM

I just took 90s as a number given I expected something similar from the devs and put it on a similar timer to "Stonewall" - but if its on a similar timer to said spell it should naturally be of decent power at stopping spike damage.If you are simply just increasing the heal amount 20-30s will be much more inline.With additional benefits (benefits which last a duration perhaps small regen/ward/stoneskin etc) you can discus a longer recast time; but I guess we just have to see what tibbits you throw us.

Peston

08-27-2010, 03:25 PM

Now hold up... back before crits even existed... pallies could still solo... just because they took away your crit heals doesnt make a huge impact and that does not take away the definition of a pally.. .you shouldnt be able to crit heals cause thats not what your class is... you crit melee and spell. the reason a healer can crit melee is because that wouldnt seem correct. granted the crit heals did help. but i mean you guys sit there and think its the end of the world. brigs donts even complain this much and their debuffs in a raid are useless. all im tryin to say is. you guys complaining about it isnt gonna change anything. get over it. soe is lacking. they see some people complaining in a forum so they nerf that class. yes i do agree soe has some major downfalls ever since the developers from before desert of flames came out left. but im sure they will figure out they messed up. let it ride out. its not like all of you lost your raid spots. and bs you cant solo. any class can solo just play your class right. classes arent made to solo ^^^'s.

Boli32

08-27-2010, 03:33 PM

Who is talking about soloing? we're discussing ability to deal with spike damage which was mainly our heals and now ability to heal 3-4k of our health is very lack luster when you have a health 30k+

Brynhild

08-27-2010, 06:58 PM

You forget in TSO we had 50%+ heal crit, and our HP was 15k not 25k .. so a 3-5k crit heal in TSO was MUCH MUCH more beneficial to us than it is now.That is the issue. Now we are at worse-than-tso heals, and our hp is much greater.

LivelyHound

08-29-2010, 07:51 AM

<cite>Maielle@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So basically, until our heals are "fixed", we have to readjust how we play.... Oh, and then when they are reworked we get to do it all over again. Awesome.</blockquote>Don't forget your supposed to completely regear for potency too. So, readjust playstyle, check, re-select aas, check, re-gear, check, wait 3 months, redo it all again <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Not to mention the fact that I had specifically mastered heals, before some of my dps abilities, which now sucks. Grr, soe really annoyed me this time, almost as much as what they did to my illy.

Bryte

08-30-2010, 12:33 PM

Why the hell do Beserkers have heals anyway?What logical sense does that make, in a historic sense, or in any other sense? Why not just take away that op garbage in stead of messing with our class SO BAD?AoE going from (master - max useful healing aa spec) 7500 to 4000 (raid) and 5500 to 3000 (group) is a bloddy joke.We cant heal ourselves anymore, cant heal our group anymore, and do not have the raw stoneskins of other fighters.No one cares that we "can" give our group 8% potency.At least SK's and Zerks are still (for whatever reason) the Dev's little darlings.Pathetic.P.S. Thanks alot <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> !! we cant use Holy Ground anymore now that we are back in the throw-off group because our worthless Zerkers/Guards cannot hold agro in any out-of-encounter-fight... Because really what Pali wanted to be able to use their #1 aoe dps spell anyway?

lich1313

09-02-2010, 08:35 PM

Irgun

09-03-2010, 12:46 PM

My suggestions:Disclaimer: all healing abilities can once again crit, if you think its too much - cut the raw numbers by a third (thats 33% and NOT 90% or so - jfyi....)Demonstration of Fate: decrease casting timeHoly Aid: maybe increase recast to 10-12secs or soPrayer of Healing: increase recast to 40-50secs, heal-over-time (noticable!) + a medium reactive healproc for each groupmember with 3 triggers if they land a successful attack (100% procchance)This is supposed to help groups survive aes, especially players who take so much damage the next /tick would kill them - but they have to do something for it to help heal - doing damage - if the hot-component isnt enough for them to survive, that is.Devout Sacrament: decrease casting time and make it uninterruptable, B*I*G reactive heal with 5 triggers + a very B*I*G ward at the beginning and at termination of it - should be our clicky for "oh s*** situations" aka spikedamage.Lay on Hands: light side of shadowknights bloodletter - drains a percentage-based amount of mana from the group and converts it into a 2 trigger stoneskin for the paladin if he drops under 33% healthDivine Favor: a regenerative aura surrounding the target of the spell with auto-cure all detrimental effects every 6seconds for a total time of 30 seconds - reducing incoming damage by 25% and increasing incoming heals and wards on this target by 25% as well - oh.......and remove detrimental effects, no clue why they were there in the first place... And it was intentional to swap names between Lay on hands and divine favor, since if someone gets divine aid you should see it with a shimmering glow around him - and lay on hands on the good side sounds pretty much perfect for a similar ability like bloodletter on the bad side.

Boli32

09-03-2010, 12:51 PM

too powerful... I want a mount that farts fire! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Jeal

09-03-2010, 09:24 PM

i love you irgin.. but lets try to stay focused on what we need.. not what we want in our wildest tanking dragon dreams..

LivelyHound

09-04-2010, 06:24 AM

Given the healing nerf, followed by the mit changes the least soe could do is completely over compensate when the redress the balance... so I'm with Irgin : Shoot for the moon people ! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

LivelyHound

09-04-2010, 06:26 AM

Though to be fair to Boli a mount that farts fire would be cool... can it be a dragon? Thus change our lvl 20 fluff mount for: a flying mount that farts and breaths fire! Now that would rock!

Marcusaval

09-04-2010, 09:51 AM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>too powerful... I want a mount that farts fire! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>dont forget the snare spell invisability and a ranged nuclaer attack!<a href="http://www.clichequest.com/index.php?pos=55">http://www.clichequest.com/index.php?pos=55</a>

Controlor

09-06-2010, 07:28 PM

Just want to throw my 2 cents into this conversation.For those who would like to see their healing spells into % based you have to remember / consider this. % based spells can only go so high befor you have to cap them off. Perfect example is our amends. If you did make the heals say 20% of our health, than that heal prob would cap there and recieve no further upgrade. I agree something needs to be done but % based healing is not really the answer IMO (except lay hands). Also having them on a reuse of 30 - 60 seconds is OBSERD unless your going to overpower the health amount to them.My particular proposal (taking some ideas that others have had as well).1 - Lay hands Master 1 75% health. now i know that doesnt seem like enough but it is still affected by potency so with enough pot you should easily have it 80%+. This is fine because really because it almost becomes a complete heal (you usually cast it when your 10-20% health so that puts you at 90-100% health) This would be the last upgrade for the spell this lvl. Previous master 1's would cap out at a lower %. Either that or remove all lower Lay hands and just have this the one and only lay hands (recieved at the lowest level we get lay hands that is). App 1 35% App 3 45% Adept 1 55% Adept 3 65% Master 1 75%. for possible progression through the ranks.2 - Divine Favor Just increase the heal % please. W/o the red adorn make it 45 - 50% w/ the red adorn 65 - 70% AT LEAST. Compared to the SK this is needed. As it stands a SK can get 3 triggers of bloodletter. Sure they need 2 other people for it to work but that only affects their soloing and they have FD for that. While we get it to heal us for 53% with potency *woo*.3 - Demonstration of Faith Increase the heal amount by 1.5 times what it is now. This makes it about a 6k ward which brings it back in line pre nerf. To compensate sure make it a 20 second reuse instead of the 15 that it is now. This over time just SLIGHTLY increases the heal amount of it. That is over 60 seconds it will ward you for 18k vs what it is now of over 60 seconds warding you for 16k. However by increasing the ward to 6k now it helps offset a bit more spike damage. without overpowering it.4 - Holy Aid Either turn this into a HOT completely or add a HOT component to it. The HOT should be able to heal say over 4 (or 2) seconds with 4 ticks at 500 - 800 each or something. This would increase the heal by 2000 - 3200 health putting it once again at about the same health it was pre nerf. Again as compensation you can increase the recast of it to about 7.5 (or 7 seconds would make me happier) seconds as opposed to the 5 seconds it is now. Over the course of 15 seconds it would then heal between 12 - 15k versus what it is now at 12 - 13.5k. But once again it helps greatly with the spike damage while keeping it in sort of line with what its healing for now HPS wise. Personally i would like it NOT to become a full HOT because between ticks your healers could easily heal you up to full and so the extra ticks are wasted. However a heal + HOT is still helpful. If not than increase the heal amount out right.5 - Devout Sacrament Add a 5k or 6k ward to it and increase the recast to 2 mins instead of 1 min 30 seconds. This will at at least a bit more use to the spell. As it is it doesnt heal for nearly enough.6 - Prayer of Healing Add a similar HOT component to it as Holy aid. However keep the recast the same, this is supposed to help the group out and as it is it does not heal for enough any more. If you add a big enough HOT to it though then i guess you can increase the recast to 10 seconds. But thats only if the heals recieved by it will be big enough (over 1.5 times what it is now).As for the casting time of each of these. for 4, 5, 6 (from numbers above) they each have same casting time now. Drop their casting time to 0.75 seconds (this would then allow the aa for holy aid and prayer to reduce the casting time to 0.25 seconds). And drop #3 to 1 second cast time.OR if you dont reduce the casting time than make it so that each of the spells are uninteruptable.PLEASE reduce / remove the power cost for lay hands. This is a major gripe considering harm touch for SK's which does damage and heals is 0 power. Just reduce it by half at least 400 power is WAY to much that is almost 5% power for an emergancy spell. THAT is obsurd.

Jeal

09-09-2010, 07:26 AM

previous poster has some solid ideas.. however the increased reuse fast cast/uninterruptable higher heal amount is still the best idea.. using defensive abillities when you actually need them in a hasty manner is what being a tank is all about.. anyways just wanted to throw in another gripethe tap abilities associated with holy circle/faith strike/faithful cry not critting.. is almost ludicrous.... these heals were marginal at BEST prior to the crit nerf... honestly they are less than nothing now... a 600hp heal on faith strike.... c'mon... faithful cry was doing 2000 or so a pop per tick.. its a TSO ENDLINE it should be pretty good at ALL facets of the ability... let these small but amazingly useless abilities crit again... and please let us know what you're doing with the heals give us some feedback... i'm dying here raiding gimped is just not fun :/

Boli32

09-09-2010, 08:23 AM

Controlor

09-09-2010, 03:24 PM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>previous poster has some solid ideas.. however the increased reuse fast cast/uninterruptable higher heal amount is still the best idea.. using defensive abillities when you actually need them in a hasty manner is what being a tank is all about.. anyways just wanted to throw in another gripethe tap abilities associated with holy circle/faith strike/faithful cry not critting.. is almost ludicrous.... these heals were marginal at BEST prior to the crit nerf... honestly they are less than nothing now... a 600hp heal on faith strike.... c'mon... faithful cry was doing 2000 or so a pop per tick.. its a TSO ENDLINE it should be pretty good at ALL facets of the ability... let these small but amazingly useless abilities crit again... and please let us know what you're doing with the heals give us some feedback... i'm dying here raiding gimped is just not fun :/</blockquote>Unfortunatly they would never make those critable again. I did forget to mention faithful cry in the last post that heal needs to be just straight increased to bring it in line to what it previously was W/O changing the reuse / cast / etc. The reason i say that these would never be critable again is because of SK's. Each of the SK's abilities that have a heal tap portion on them have also had that heal criting removed. So their damage can crit but the heal portion of their taps dont crit. So if you were to make the paladins tap ones crit the SK's would cry bloody murder.*Edit* also in my post i do agree with the increase in reuse and increase in either cast speed or make it uninteruptable. I was just arguing against a 30 second reuse or so on our main heal. You can increase the heal amount and still keep the reuse reasonable (10 seconds or under ... 20 seconds and under for ward) while increasing the heal to bring it back in line to what it previously was w/o drastically increasing our haling over time potential. I understand that other tank classes can out heal us and that is agrivating, but SOE is SOE so one can only argue for so much to help out.

Tommara

09-13-2010, 01:50 AM

I think it's because on the Extended Live server, you can buy a heal potion that restores 100% of HP via SC. As well as a power version.

Gilli

10-04-2010, 04:36 PM

I'm really glad everybody is working hard at coming up with good solutions. My pally is just a solo alt who I quite like, and since I don't have any group tank experience yet (might chance once I get to 90, I'm at 87 right now) I'll keep my mouth shut on what should be done.I do want to add two comments of my own, though:1. Not having your spells crit when everything else crits on every other class you play is just plain disappointing. It's a constant reminder to see those small numbers fly up, like an annoying monkey is in the corner saying "who's not critting! Neener neener!" Yes, it's stupid, but I miss the big font for my heals. I'd almost rather see a fake big number, especially after working hard on AAs and itemization to get that 100% crit whether I'm in tanking or DPS mode.2. Since we have to stop what we're doing to heal and actually cast a heal spell, this makes #1 even more rankling to me. Ooh, I love taking time to cast tiny font heal spells. Let's not crit! Let's do it three times in a row! Weee!All done now, just thought I'd add a little font size gripe as an addendum to the more important conversations going on. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Prestissimo

10-14-2010, 07:20 AM

On my warden I almost never get to see a heal tick for it's full amount. It really just down right pisses me off when I saw tanks with heal parses that made my warden look like a joke.At the same time though, when I was on my paladin, I was thankful for every last point of healing he had. It allowed the healer to focus on getting everyone else up to full and I could assist with my group heal and spot cures and what not. SF pretty much made that moot as abilities in general just outright exploded into huge numbers. I wasn't a fan of how huge everything inflated to in SF, but taking out fighter heal crit all together is just way too much.There is a happy middle ground to letting the healers have their cake and giving the healing fighters something to support with and make a difference but not dominate the charts blind.Tanks having way OP healing in BGs and raid geared tanks spanking respectively trivial heroic content because of scaling bonuses and min/maxing cheapens the game was a problem, but nerfing the entirety of tank healing to this degree is just plain uncalled for and absurd. This change is also damaging balance on a whole for everyone thats not stacked in teh sparklie phat lewtz fighting respectively trivial content. There were overgeared players fighting undergeared players/trivial content that was causing an imbalance, so either make the loot smarter so farming is less lucrative and doesn't punish those in need, or put in scaling so that having top tier raid gear doesn't trivialize the nuts off of the heroic content."Fixing" a bad decision with another worse decision just hurts the game that much more and makes the list of things to fix that much bigger. It would have been better to leave things as they were until a fix was developed that didn't gush complete and pure fail. Honestly, I love boli's suggestions at the start of the thread. It doesn't lay a steamer on top of your healers by making them basically cure bots, and it does the job it was intended to do; reduce spike while protecting yourself and your parties with healing and support.

Lethe5683

10-14-2010, 02:18 PM

Because SKs heals were far too OP. They really should have just taken crit healing away from all fighter classes EXCEPT paladins.

Landiin

10-14-2010, 04:00 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because SKs heals were far too OP. They really should have just taken crit healing away from all fighter classes EXCEPT paladins.</blockquote>That would of went over well huh?. They should of fixed what was causing the issue in the first place not a nerf to fighters across the board.

Maamadex

10-15-2010, 03:46 PM

Fine tuning is not SoE's specialty, they tend to be heavy handed when adjusting something thats overpowered and go too far heh.

Boethius_Permafrost

10-18-2010, 11:51 AM

Poor choice of words, Maamadex. Heal crits overpowered?

Boli32

10-18-2010, 12:52 PM

Heals as they were in HERIOC and SOLO and most like battleground/pvs where the issue was highlighted were "overpowered" as they trivilised incoming damage HOWEVER removing the heal crit meant our heals no longer scaled with the rest of the gear/dps/incoming damage to raid content.The current heals are simply too small and more "must.spam.constantly" to get any sort of effect from them - the proposed changed is to increase the size of the heals and reduce the recast which will help with the solo/herioc parts but does not do anything to the raid content.The issue is.. and always has been the scaling of the heals - when they crit they helped with spike damage both on ourselves and group in raid but were perhaps too powerful in herioc/solo/battlegrounds/pvp senrios. Honestly altering the heals within the pvp rule set was too complex for SoE so they introduced a blanket nerf to all fighter heals which adjusted SK and zerker heals to a better level 9even tweakign the zerker endline so it heals similat to what it did before by increasing the %) but completly neglect3ed to examine the paladin heals.As such we are now left with extremely ineffieicnt heals (5% power a pop give or take) which heal for little to no damage against harder content. (3.2k heal on a 32k health raid buffed pally is just pathetic; given we have to take the damage first in order to heal it).SoE Devs need to go away and rethink our heals completely; to somethgin which will scale from herioc to solo to raid instead of removing the scaleing part (crits) - The only time I've considered them to be overpowered is in battlegrounds where I'm guessing most of the complaints have come from.We have given a lot of suggestions but no feedback to what we the paladin community think - its more a case of "we don't understand your class so we are just going to make your heals bigger but increase the recast" - I can almost bet a 10min sitdown with the devs explaining how we use our abilities and what we expect from our cllass will help out a lot. - its just a case of trying to get those 10min without being laughed at (fan faire) or ignored (official forums).Like most tank classes gear helps yes.. but you cannot truely understand the class unless you have OTed, MTed higher level raid or even tough herioc content where a single miss-timed ability can wipe a raid/group. Unless you have had the experiance at this it is impossible to fully realise exactly what the class is capable of and their limitations.The mere pressance of TSO raid content shows how little the development team understood about raid tanking giving the constant interupts/stuns/stifles and status effects upon tanks. SKs were highly sought after because they had 3 abilities which coudl nulify those - the rest of us just had to ride the stun+interupt waveThe point is the community HAS the knowledge of what is required/needed in the paladin class - USE US!

DJWolf5

10-19-2010, 01:58 AM

I have read most of this thread and while I'm sure the boffins have many well meaning suggestions no one has looked at the emotional impact of having a character I no longer want to play.Half my paladin spells are heals. Half my AAs affect or boost these heals or give new heals and none of them are real spells. It doesn't matter what armour I am wearing because 'Critical Chance' and 'Critical Bonus' no longer affect them. They are different to every other spell or CA on my hotbars... They are 'toy heals'.I want to go back and redo all my AAs. I no longer want 'Lay on Hands' to be Grandmastered. I don't want to spend the AAs I did to get the additional heal. The character is broken and no longer fun because his hotbars are filled with things that don't crit and are 'different' to everything else that every other character has.Everything is ordered by rules and rules give us comfort. Spells and CAs crit according to your critical chance. However, this change to crusaders is an arbitrary cheat because it ignores the rules. I will not play my paladin until sense prevails and another means is found to balance the class other than by this lazy use of a dues ex machina. I will not enjoy this character until his spells become spells again defined by the rules regarding spells. Spells crit.

Costa

10-19-2010, 07:58 AM

Our heals being nerfed are a direct result of the devs consolidating stats etc and making crits easy to cap due to poor gear itemisation.SF instances are not challanging. Before the crit nerf i was clearing library and research halls in a mix of T8 pvp armor and t1 SF raid armor without a healer, although full group with 2 utility. I haven't tried the instance since the change although my gear has gotten better so would be good fun to see if i still can <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If the devs wanted to prevent Pallys from running instances without healers then they should look at designing heroic content that forces groups to take healers. I don't mean having mobs constantly casting dots that have to be cured or curses that screw you over but just make them hit hard enough and throw out a few aoe's that mean we can't keep our selves and the group alive through it all. With the abilities and aa build's we have and with crits being capped easily along with good potency and crit bonuses we can't be blamed for playing our class to the best of it's ability and then be told they have been broken for years.It has been long established that certain classes are good at soloing heroic content, especially when they are running easy/lower con instances and are geared in higher end gear.The devs have been given some great idea's in this thread about how they can make our heals scale to content but as always you never see any input from them as they always seem to come across as ignoring their community. All it takes is a thread like what they did in the guardian forum about how they can improve/address issues and provide us feedback on our idea's or how they see the class being developed.I love my Pally, i switched from Zerk over a year ago as main and have never looked back but this change has only mildly stiffled what i could do on him. Raiding has become slightly more frustrating with the spamming of variouse heals when ae's hit or i take spike damage but i can't say i'll rage quit and shelf him.Boli has some great ideas on where our heals could be going and the ability to buff healers etc seem a good solution if healers are feeling left out when healing us but will any red names read and acknowledge them??? Probably not <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Silzin

10-19-2010, 12:25 PM

I don’t play a Paly, but from what I understand no classes should expect any changes or Div recognition until very close to the next xpac comes out since I am sure they are in the Bata for it. Any changes they have gotten from this thread is probably already being implemented to the extent that it will be on the Bata server, and any one that has [Removed for Content] to it is under a NDA.

Costa

10-19-2010, 01:18 PM

Although that would be a nice thought that they are working on it and are testing it. They keep on making changes to mechanics and game play recently that were not needed and have even implemented changes to wariors and guardians specificly that were under discussion not long before they changed the critical healing.In reality if the devs cared they would talk to the community and get feedback on suggestions for future development or even offer out the opportunity to the experienced players to come test out what they have thought up. The trouble is they don't appear to be making any effort on this which is part of what gets our backs up and consequently frustration is vented at them when they do finally make posts on what is happening or ask for feedback/ideas.It's been several weeks since a red name posted that LoH's may become a % based heal but thats the only snipet of info we have been given <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm guessing we'll be having the new expansion in Febuary so that could be in the next 18 weeks. With that new expansion we'll be getting a new aa cap so who know's maybe the devs will be sneaky to us and let us spec new aa's so we get critical healing again? Or they may not do anything to our heals for the next expansion and work it in over the next 12-18months like the guardian changes and wait until another expansion comes out? By then we'll have more threads regarding heal crits for pally's, more angry/upset customers and probably more people leaving game or stop playing characters because of the lack of customer care?

Wasuna

10-19-2010, 01:26 PM

Did SR with a Paladin tank last night. He did the named in the garden by just running to it and attacking. Got all the gargoyles on him right after they killed the healer. Paladin kept agro, did 12K DPS and healed for 2K HPS and we easily won the fight.You people are crazy. My Guardian would have dropped in about 2 seconds after doing maybe 500 HPS from my stoneskins and doing maybe 6K DPS.Keep asking for the world. Maybe you'll get it.

Costa

10-19-2010, 02:00 PM

And how was this Pally geared in comparison to your guardian? How much of the 2k heals were his own or procs?It's been long established that Warriors tend to need a healer to keep them alive where as crusaders have had self heals and pally's in perticular direct heals to keep them going. I played a Zerk as a main for 3 years to know what warriors are like <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Post up some data on this guy rather than just say he's done x amount of damage, y amount of heals and made my guardian look full of fail in the process <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If the Pally is in full set of end game gear compared to another tank in MC then yeah you can expect a little difference in surviveability as well as dps. Also it's not all about what the tank can do on his own. If he's running in a stacked group that kinda helps a bit too rather than just some pulled together pug.

Morgue

10-19-2010, 02:24 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Did SR with a Paladin tank last night. He did the named in the garden by just running to it and attacking. Got all the gargoyles on him right after they killed the healer. Paladin kept agro, did 12K DPS and healed for 2K HPS and we easily won the fight.You people are crazy. My Guardian would have dropped in about 2 seconds after doing maybe 500 HPS from my stoneskins and doing maybe 6K DPS.Keep asking for the world. Maybe you'll get it.</blockquote>Trolling gets us no where, but lets assume your trying to be productive. As the post following you said, give the number i.e. parse data to back up this assumption. And include the gear comparison.Keeping agro for a paladin is a combined group effort, from the amends' target producting significant hate. The paladin's hit/hate rate adding hate and the group managing hate properly. The 2K HPS, I just do not believe this for a moment. I have seen my HPS, from the goup ward mostly, as high as 500; but 2k hps I would need parse data to back that statement up. While 2k hps is conceptionaly possible, It seems more likely you are trolling.Hate to use a common "skillz" arguement; however, maybe the paladin was just better geared and knew HIS/HER class better. Class knowledge is on of the biggest factors in tanking ability. I wish player would learn their own class's ins and outs before attacking another class because they have different tools.We are not asking for the world, but it would be nice if our "heal" abilities where worth the hotbar space.

Rahatmattata

10-20-2010, 02:59 AM

<cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are not asking for the world, but it would be nice if our "heal" abilities where worth the hotbar space. </blockquote>Then nerf paladin block chance, and while you're at it, knight's stance. If you want to dps, ditch the shield. If you want to heal, ditch the avoidance.

Morgue

10-20-2010, 03:22 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are not asking for the world, but it would be nice if our "heal" abilities where worth the hotbar space. </blockquote>Then nerf paladin block chance, and while you're at it, knight's stance. If you want to dps, ditch the shield. If you want to heal, ditch the avoidance.</blockquote>I know you to be a troll; nevertheless, the paladins have already stated they would like for knight's stance to affect 2hders and not 1hders. On your 2nd point: I do dps with a 2hder. Currently we cannot heal w/o avoidance its needed to actually get our heals off while being constantly attacked by mobs. Its best to ignore trolls, but I think its proper to point out the fatal flaws you make in your arguements. Not meaning this to be a personal attack; however, I feel it warrents saying; I do not believe you can read or understand the arguements of another class while you are blinded by your own class envy or hate. You do more harm by constantly attacking other classes. Was not too long ago other classes felt your guardian was, for lack of a better word, "OP." I expect we know how that resulted. At any rate, an arguement contradictory to your own will be ignored, or met with more nerf paladin block or knight's stance responses. Have a nice day <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />-raz

Wasuna

10-20-2010, 11:35 AM

Why would the rest of the fighters ever agree to support KS effecting 2 handers? Why would we support one of the 2 highest DPS fighters to have a setup that would allow them to do even more DPS when they wanted to?The Paladin community really needs to think here and quit being stupid. You heal like a healer and you DPS like a scout all while your keep rock solid agro and take the hits from the mobs. How can any other fighter (excluding SK's) support anything that in any way bosts your abilities?

Costa

10-20-2010, 12:21 PM

Lets not confuse the rest of the fighters with a couple of guradians... From last i had seen Zerks were absolute beasts at dps and they hold up pretty well when it comes to damage reduction.Even with the last round of changes to off hand weapons etc has 0 effect on crusaders as we can't use them. In the last few months all the changes that have been applied to the game have nerfed both crusader classes whilst both warrior classes have been given boosts along with these nerfs. They may not be great when it comes to raiding but seeing as the majority of content in game is designed around soloing and heroic content all these off hand changes will boost both warrior and brawler dps.Guardians need to get it into their heads that Paladins are not SK's or Zerkers and we don't dps like scouts, if we're out dpsing our scouts then the scouts are fail or are grossly out geared. We have tools to hold agro, but so do guardians now since the changes plus both warriors have more snap tools than both crusader classes. We have never healed like a healer in a setting that actually makes a healers heals count. Yes we could/can keep our selves and group alive in easy heroic content but thats what heals are for and poor game design brings.What we are asking for is our heals to scale for content, idea's have been posted but no response from a red name to accknowledge them. We want guardians to stop feeling the pressure that they are not the be all and end all of plate tanks and hopefully without nerfing classes the devs can find a balance with all of us that may, once in an mmo, would stop people complaining that the tools they have to do a job is not the same as someone elses and they want access to all of it.

Rahatmattata

10-20-2010, 12:37 PM

<cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are not asking for the world, but it would be nice if our "heal" abilities where worth the hotbar space. </blockquote>Then nerf paladin block chance, and while you're at it, knight's stance. If you want to dps, ditch the shield. If you want to heal, ditch the avoidance.</blockquote>I know you to be a troll; nevertheless, the paladins have already stated they would like for knight's stance to affect 2hders and not 1hders. On your 2nd point: I do dps with a 2hder. Currently we cannot heal w/o avoidance its needed to actually get our heals off while being constantly attacked by mobs. Its best to ignore trolls, but I think its proper to point out the fatal flaws you make in your arguements. Not meaning this to be a personal attack; however, I feel it warrents saying; I do not believe you can read or understand the arguements of another class while you are blinded by your own class envy or hate. You do more harm by constantly attacking other classes. Was not too long ago other classes felt your guardian was, for lack of a better word, "OP." I expect we know how that resulted. At any rate, an arguement contradictory to your own will be ignored, or met with more nerf paladin block or knight's stance responses. Have a nice day <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />-raz</blockquote>Yea, I must be a troll since I don't share your point of view. You're real smart kid.

Boli32

10-20-2010, 01:24 PM

Its nice to see everyone jumping on the band wagon saying hahahahaha and asking for more nerfs.Point remains we have BROKEN abilities and need them to be re-evaluated to scale from solo to herioc, to raid - as of right now they are equal to a solo only ability which just happens to consume vast quantities of power. Not overpowered... notice I haven't asked for anything overpowering.. just something that SCALES from solo to raid.When equiping a few stonewill items equals if not completly overshadows any sort of healing power pallys can now put out it makes me sad where I will gain more healing NOT casting heals and DPSing than I would if I cast them; if that;s not broken I don;t know what else is. Pallys do NOT want to have to sit there spamming heals constantly to keep alive.. heals shoudl be akin to and act much like your defensive buffs gaining similar benefits... just in healing power.Oh... and I've never got even close to 2k heal/second after the "adjustment" except for one place in cella where you can use the crusader endline to proc massive healing... such a shame that that is pretty much the only place the ability is ever used and <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/paladins/31388-consolidated-paladin-thread-specs.html" target="_blank">no pally ever specs it</a> not even in "tank spec". Its completly useless in a raid setting.

Loxus

10-20-2010, 02:51 PM

We can argue conjecture on what is, or isn't broken till we're blue in the face with plenty of people to happily agree or more aptly, disagree to any claims made. The fact is though, until we see a change, or it's not changing (or even a new comment that Xelgad is looking at it) in game; we're just "peeing in the wind" at this point.Boli said it best, we don't want to be "Healadins" knocking out 5k hps, we just want our heals to scale correctly. The reason they don't was because of a "quick fix - so everyone will shut up" attempt to correct an itemization issue(s) in which the easiest solution was to just break the mechanic until a more approprate time was available to correct all issues pertaining to the real problem. That fix (break) impacted paladins more an any other, whether intended or unintended. We all know it, but the fact remains nothing is gonna happen until the expansion.Until then, I'd offer you stick to your yard, we'll stick to ours, otherwise we're just [Removed for Content] each other off for no reason other than boredom. There's plenty of time for the "knock-down drag-outs" when beta hits. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />As for Pallys asking for KS to switch to 2 handers - I'd be careful what you wish for. SOE's track record on 2 handers (or itemization lately) hasn't been all that stellar.

Morgue

10-20-2010, 02:56 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>We are not asking for the world, but it would be nice if our "heal" abilities where worth the hotbar space. </blockquote>Then nerf paladin block chance, and while you're at it, knight's stance. If you want to dps, ditch the shield. If you want to heal, ditch the avoidance.</blockquote>I know you to be a troll; nevertheless, the paladins have already stated they would like for knight's stance to affect 2hders and not 1hders. On your 2nd point: I do dps with a 2hder. Currently we cannot heal w/o avoidance its needed to actually get our heals off while being constantly attacked by mobs. Its best to ignore trolls, but I think its proper to point out the fatal flaws you make in your arguements. Not meaning this to be a personal attack; however, I feel it warrents saying; I do not believe you can read or understand the arguements of another class while you are blinded by your own class envy or hate. You do more harm by constantly attacking other classes. Was not too long ago other classes felt your guardian was, for lack of a better word, "OP." I expect we know how that resulted. At any rate, an arguement contradictory to your own will be ignored, or met with more nerf paladin block or knight's stance responses. Have a nice day <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />-raz</blockquote>Yea, I must be a troll since I don't share your point of view. You're real smart kid.</blockquote>I do not expect you read my post we agree on the 2hdrs. You point-of-view is simple you dislike paladins and are jelious of there ablities. I do not feel it proper to attack someone for different opinions as you do; thus, debate with you is fruitless or pointless as it were. Is it your method to attack someone when you cannot make a logical arguement?Boli, I was expecting if anyone could make that 2k mark on HPS it would yourself or Jeal. I know im fairly certain if possible it is under controled situations, and very very rare happening. It appears any time we ask for something to be usefull we must sacrifice something we already have, but did we get anything in return for the loss of critical heals? Were we not asked specifically that same question, "why do you think you should get something for losing something?" Always the arguement something must be lost for something to be gained. That type of thinking is what got guardians in the sad shape they where in only a few months ago.Loxosceles Reclusa, Your 2hder point is very valid. Until recently 2hder has been useless. What is to say another 2 expansions and we will back to sword and board. However a more scaling version of the Knight's stance would be interesting maybe 25% for 1hd 10 to 20% for 2hders. At any rate the arguements against Knight's stance tend to come from guards who of all the tanks have the lowest dps; which probably is a result of 'why can't I do that too?" type thinking.

Rahatmattata

10-21-2010, 01:56 AM

<cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do not expect you read my post we agree on the 2hdrs. You point-of-view is simple you dislike paladins and are jelious of there ablities. I do not feel it proper to attack someone for different opinions as you do; thus, debate with you is fruitless or pointless as it were. Is it your method to attack someone when you cannot make a logical arguement?</blockquote>I think you'll find our views on 2 handers are extremely different. Yes a paladin should have to use a 2 hander to do dps, but no they shouldn't get some special bonus while using 2 handers. They should basically balance knight's stance like they did with warrior double attack forcing crusaders to use a 2 hander if they want to dps.I feel if paladins get buffed in any way, there needs to be some equal nerfing for balance reasons. If I was jealous of paladins, I would simply roll one and be level 90 in a couple weeks champ. Basically, I just said the same [Removed for Content] thing I said before using more words. I hope you're satisfied now.

Costa

10-21-2010, 05:29 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do not expect you read my post we agree on the 2hdrs. You point-of-view is simple you dislike paladins and are jelious of there ablities. I do not feel it proper to attack someone for different opinions as you do; thus, debate with you is fruitless or pointless as it were. Is it your method to attack someone when you cannot make a logical arguement?</blockquote>I think you'll find our views on 2 handers are extremely different. Yes a paladin should have to use a 2 hander to do dps, but no they shouldn't get some special bonus while using 2 handers. They should basically balance knight's stance like they did with warrior double attack forcing crusaders to use a 2 hander if they want to dps.I feel if paladins get buffed in any way, there needs to be some equal nerfing for balance reasons. If I was jealous of paladins, I would simply roll one and be level 90 in a couple weeks champ. Basically, I just said the same [Removed for Content] thing I said before using more words. I hope you're satisfied now.</blockquote>If i remember rightly the warriors dbl attack used to be linked to using a buckler for an added dps boost, then when myths came along guardians had a nice little buff that allowed them to get the dbl attack bonus whilst using tower shields. The devs then changed the aa trees so warriors gained the dbl attack regardless of shield or no shield equiped and finally gave crusaders Knights Stance as part of TSO aa setup.In a couple months time we've got a new expansion with more aa's available which will probably mean new aa's. Maybe the devs will finally pull KS out of TSO or change it to 2 handers only or maybe they'll just give a similar aa to guardians so they can quit moaning about it and then start to moan about another one of our buffs they want removed from us and given to them?

Morgue

10-21-2010, 10:35 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do not expect you read my post we agree on the 2hdrs. You point-of-view is simple you dislike paladins and are jelious of there ablities. I do not feel it proper to attack someone for different opinions as you do; thus, debate with you is fruitless or pointless as it were. Is it your method to attack someone when you cannot make a logical arguement?</blockquote>I think you'll find our views on 2 handers are extremely different. Yes a paladin should have to use a 2 hander to do dps, but no they shouldn't get some special bonus while using 2 handers. They should basically balance knight's stance like they did with warrior double attack forcing crusaders to use a 2 hander if they want to dps.I feel if paladins get buffed in any way, there needs to be some equal nerfing for balance reasons. If I was jealous of paladins, I would simply roll one and be level 90 in a couple weeks champ. Basically, I just said the same [Removed for Content] thing I said before using more words. I hope you're satisfied now.</blockquote>I must really be getting under your skin, because you keep hurly coated insult like "champ" and "kid." No, your idea is you want to break down another class you do not want anything more than someone else's class they enjoy to be taken down so you feel some small victory in your little world. Good luck with that. You betray yourself with these weak arguement Boli and many others and shed light on constantly, so your arguement bear no fruit. A opinion does not have to entirely be based in something, but your opinion seems to be NERF paladins more because im not satisfied yet. Whats next after Knight's stance? Aura of Leadership? Another Holy Ground nerf? I do not see the reasoning behind nerf requests. Maybe just playing better and learning to overcome my class's weaknesses is my game, and your is nerf the other guy till they are "in your eyes" equal.

Wasuna

10-21-2010, 11:00 AM

Unfortunatly, the current evidence is that you are HealaDPSadins. Doing 10K+ DPS AND doing 2K+ HPS while TANKING 8-10 mobs including a named while the healer is dead (and not needed to res the healer I might add) is just flat rediculious.I have Stonewill items. I have lifetap items. I never, ever, never, absolulty never get 2K HPS even with 20 mobs hitting me on my Guardian. And for me to break 10K DPS I have to have an illuionist with the AoE attack/Flurry buff and have a dirge for the DPS mod buff.. and then if I get 20 no arrows or down arrows and people that can kill the group AoE fast then I can do maybe do 15K if I'm lucky. I can easily break 10K in that situation but a Paladin would be doing 25K or better.Just for clarification, I really hate nerfs. But, any reasonable person has to look at facts and scratch their head.

Boli32

10-21-2010, 11:00 AM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortunatly, the current evidence is that you are HealaDPSadins. Doing 10K+ DPS AND doing 2K+ HPS while TANKING 8-10 mobs including a named while the healer is dead (and not needed to res the healer I might add) is just flat rediculious.I have Stonewill items. I have lifetap items. I never, ever, never, absolulty never get 2K HPS even with 20 mobs hitting me on my Guardian. And for me to break 10K DPS I have to have an illuionist with the AoE attack/Flurry buff and have a dirge for the DPS mod buff.. and then if I get 20 no arrows or down arrows and people that can kill the group AoE fast then I can do maybe do 15K if I'm lucky. I can easily break 10K in that situation but a Paladin would be doing 25K or better.Just for clarification, I really hate nerfs. But, any reasonable person has to look at facts and scratch their head.</blockquote>The is one case where pallys (or to that matter SKs and zerkers) can gain insane HPS, (cella) but outside that since the heal nerf I have never gotten above 900hps and that's with 4 stonewill items and spamming my ward for all its worth; this is a case of someone seeing a fluke parse and inflating it beyond what is normally capable in order to get further decreases to a class.Its like asking for nerfs after linking the palace fight with all the books where the fighter is awarded the damage for damaging the name.As for your fighter DPS, we are all limited by buffs - its a running joke in my guild how slow I solo on my pally; I can as all plate fighters can with equiping enough lifetap/Stonewill items you can pretty much autoattack blue and green heriocs down - it just takes a very long long time. I finally got around to soloing library a couple of days ago... entire zone took me about 4 hours and the final named took me 40min to get him down to 86% by which time I had to ask for help to dps the books down.no doubt everyone will shot nerf nerf nerf... yes I as able to solo that place... *just* but its a: a *really* easy zone b: I'm [Removed for Content] out with gear and c: took me HOURS to do; during which time I could have done it 10 times with various toons, in a group, not died, gotten more plat and more chances of mastersjust for the record - all legendary drops and I couldn't kill chest mob.

Morgue

10-21-2010, 03:04 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortunatly, the current evidence is that you are HealaDPSadins. Doing 10K+ DPS AND doing 2K+ HPS while TANKING 8-10 mobs including a named while the healer is dead (and not needed to res the healer I might add) is just flat rediculious.I have Stonewill items. I have lifetap items. I never, ever, never, absolulty never get 2K HPS even with 20 mobs hitting me on my Guardian. And for me to break 10K DPS I have to have an illuionist with the AoE attack/Flurry buff and have a dirge for the DPS mod buff.. and then if I get 20 no arrows or down arrows and people that can kill the group AoE fast then I can do maybe do 15K if I'm lucky. I can easily break 10K in that situation but a Paladin would be doing 25K or better.Just for clarification, I really hate nerfs. But, any reasonable person has to look at facts and scratch their head.</blockquote>The is one case where pallys (or to that matter SKs and zerkers) can gain insane HPS, (cella) but outside that since the heal nerf I have never gotten above 900hps and that's with 4 stonewill items and spamming my ward for all its worth; this is a case of someone seeing a fluke parse and inflating it beyond what is normally capable in order to get further decreases to a class.Its like asking for nerfs after linking the palace fight with all the books where the fighter is awarded the damage for damaging the name.As for your fighter DPS, we are all limited by buffs - its a running joke in my guild how slow I solo on my pally; I can as all plate fighters can with equiping enough lifetap/Stonewill items you can pretty much autoattack blue and green heriocs down - it just takes a very long long time. I finally got around to soloing library a couple of days ago... entire zone took me about 4 hours and the final named took me 40min to get him down to 86% by which time I had to ask for help to dps the books down.no doubt everyone will shot nerf nerf nerf... yes I as able to solo that place... *just* but its a: a *really* easy zone b: I'm [Removed for Content] out with gear and c: took me HOURS to do; during which time I could have done it 10 times with various toons, in a group, not died, gotten more plat and more chances of mastersjust for the record - all legendary drops and I couldn't kill chest mob.</blockquote>Maybe before the crit nerf, SOE should have looked at a gear nerf (that is jest of course). It has always been the biggest issue where balance is concern. Gear tends to multiply any other poor design choices they make as far as: AA, class ability, concept. Only after adding AA like Knight's stance or combining Criticals do we see an understanding of how these might be improperly scaling. This is not entirely due to the current dev's lack of foresight, but is related to the changing game dynamic.