The Knight's Stance vs Crit Bonus Debate [Archive]

steelbadger

07-18-2010, 09:35 AM

In the never ending argument between Warriors (Guardians) and Crusaders I see an awful lot of time given over to the relative merits of the Crusader AA 'Knight's Stance' and the inherent Warrior 50% base melee crit bonus. The argument is generally centered around how these differences cancel out (or not) and so I figured I'd take this opportunity to walk through the maths of Auto-Attack and how it applies to these abilities.First, lets assume a stock weapon. Now the Ratio of the weapon (This is the ratio of Max Damage over Minimum Damage) is the one quality of a weapon that can affect how much one gains from your crit bonus, so we'll want to take this into account at a later stage. But for now, to keep it simple, I'll just use a generic set of stats:Minimum Damage: 50Maximum Damage: 285Delay: 4sThis weapon has a Ratio of 5.7. One of the standard Ratios a weapon often has in this game (Other standard Ratios are 4 and 3). 5.7 is currently the most common Ratio for DPS generating weapons.Knight's Stance means that the Crusader is going to be using a weapon 25% more effective than this:Minimum Damage: 62.5Maximum Damage: 356.25Delay: 4sNow, if we assume that this comparison is taking place at level cap and hence also assume that both characters have 100% crit chance then we can proceed (we could take account of crit chances less than 100% but it adds quite a lot of additional complexity).As you may or may not know, when an Auto-Attack crits it rolls for the base damage (Between the minimum damage and the maximum damage), then multiplies it by your crit bonus (150% for Warriors, 130% for Crusaders). It then does an additional check. If the resulting number is less than or equal to the normal (non crit) maximum damage of the weapon then it gets artificially boosted to doing damage of 1+ the maximum listed damage. Crits that turn out to be above the maximum listed non crit damage of the weapon are left as they are and hit for whatever they were found to be.So this means that a hit of 60 dmg that crits (for the warrior) will not hit for 60*1.5=90. It will hit for 286 instead.So lets work out the average damage per hit from the Warrior first (remember that we're assuming 100% crit):The point at which a crit hit will need to be 'bumped' up to max+1 will be found at 286/1.5=190.If a hit rolls for 50-190 damage it will crit for 286 for the Warrior. If it rolls from 191-285 it will crit for whatever the roll multiplied by your crit bonus.This means that any crit has a (190-50)/(286-50)=59.6% chance of hitting for 286.The remaining 40.4% of crits will hit for whatever the roll multiplied by the crit bonus of the character.Those hits will average out as being 1.5*(285+191)/2 = 357 damage.So to recap, when the warrior crits they have a 59.6% chance of hitting for 586 and a 40.4% chance of hitting for an average of 357 damage.This means that they will hit for an average of (0.596*286)+(0.404*357) = 314.684 damage.Now, we repeat the process for the Crusader, with the new Minimum and Maximum damage values and the new crit bonus of 130%:357.25/1.3 = 288.654Hits between 62.5 and 288 will hit for 357 while hits between 289 and 356 will hit for an average of 1.3*(289+356)/2 = 419Chance of hitting for 357 is (288-62.5)/(356-62.5) = 76.8%Chance of hitting for an average of 419 is 23.2%.This means the Crusader will hit for an average of (0.768*357)+(0.232*419) = 371.384.So, despite the 20% crit bonus advantage of the warrior the Crusader is still doing 18% more damage than the Warrior; shaving off only 7% of the damage advantage gifted to Crusaders with Knight's Stance.I feel that people assume the critbonus differential between Crusaders and Warriors to be far more effective than this. It's certainly not all that self evident from just looking at the numbers.Now, I know some people will raise issue with my assumptions:1) 100% crit chance. This assumption is a best case scenario for the Warrior. As crit chance falls to 0% the Crusader's lead in damage increases from 18% to 25%.2) No Crit Bonus gear. This is a bit more squiggly. Best Case for a Warrior actually occurs when both have (an additional) 60% crit bonus from gear, for a total crit bonus of 210% for the warrior and 180% for the Crusader (The Crusader only has a 16.6% advantage in this case). As crit bonus goes above this, however, the Crusader regains ground again.3) The weapon. I made this assumption because these weapons are the preferred. A lower ratio weapon does favour Crusaders slightly less but still yields less overall dps than a 5.7 ratio weapon.Just to wrap up with an interesting fact:If Warriors had 190% Base Crit Bonus (and Crusaders stayed at 130%) the Warrior's 1H auto-attack damage would still be slightly inferior to that of a Crusader.Do not under-estimate Knight's Stance. Or, alternatively, do not over-estimate the value of base crit bonus to auto-attack.(Note, this is the mechanics purely with regards to Auto-attack and I make no statements whatsoever regarding CA/Spell DPS. I also make no comment concerning my perception of the balance with regards to this subject, the purpose of this post is so I may less often be forced to read posts by people asserting things they really haven't looking into in any depth)

Bruener

07-18-2010, 03:46 PM

Why even make this thread if all you are doing is comparing auto attack damage with 1h between classes? Things that really need to be laid out are below so that people do understand the whole picture instead of the one very small issue of auto attack damage...something mind you that Warriors/Brawlers already have more of especially when DW'ing or using a 2h wep.1. Crit bonus works for all of the Warriors abilities as well as their auto attack.2. Crit bonus works for 2 weps while DW'ing.3. Crit bonus works on 2h wepsSo yes there is still a slight advantage for Crusaders when using 1h+board in auto attack damage. However, there is more advantage for Warrior/Zerk when DW'ing and when using a 2h wep. And the crit bonus also affects every ability they have.Not sure where you wanna go with this thread though since the difference in Crusader DPS and Warrior/Brawler DPS comes mostly from proc damage, especially in an AE situation.

BChizzle

07-18-2010, 04:08 PM

We've been over this time and time again. Knight stance is superior to crit bonus as the crit bonus become less and less of an advantage as you get more.

steelbadger

07-18-2010, 04:38 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why even make this thread if all you are doing is comparing auto attack damage with 1h between classes? Things that really need to be laid out are below so that people do understand the whole picture instead of the one very small issue of auto attack damage...something mind you that Warriors/Brawlers already have more of especially when DW'ing or using a 2h wep.1. Crit bonus works for all of the Warriors abilities as well as their auto attack.2. Crit bonus works for 2 weps while DW'ing.3. Crit bonus works on 2h wepsSo yes there is still a slight advantage for Crusaders when using 1h+board in auto attack damage. However, there is more advantage for Warrior/Zerk when DW'ing and when using a 2h wep. And the crit bonus also affects every ability they have.Not sure where you wanna go with this thread though since the difference in Crusader DPS and Warrior/Brawler DPS comes mostly from proc damage, especially in an AE situation.</blockquote>The purpose of the post was to point out that Crusaders place a greatly inflated value upon crit bonus.The long and short of it is that the 20% advantage in crit bonus means Non-Crusaders have only a 0-8% head start on Crusaders. A tiny deficiency that is more than made up for by simply having better (more damaging) abilities.I'm tired of hearing that Knight's Stance is some great leveller. Making up for the cruel deficiencies forced upon Crusaders by malicious devs. It isn't. It is completely uneccessary, the base crit bonus deficiency of Crusaders would not leave them languishing behind warriors in terms of DPS potential if they had no Knight's Stance, they make up for that deficiency in hundreds of places, and then overcome it with Knight's Stance. That is why I made this thread, to clear up the misconception that crit bonus is some kind of golden bullet that we all overlook when thinking about fighter balance. The point is that crusaders don't need the crit bonus of warriors/brawlers. And nor do they need the sledgehammer that is Knight's Stance to balance the difference out.

Yimway

07-18-2010, 06:44 PM

Thanks for the post with the math detailed. My understanding matches what you've laid out.It is also why I've advocated Knights Stance *should* have been designed to only work with 2handers, pushing the crusader max dps 'stance' to one that is truely offensive. Giving the class what I would believe is a strong dps advantage when using a 2hander, but not a common choice for raid tanking.

BChizzle

07-18-2010, 06:47 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for the post with the math detailed. My understanding matches what you've laid out.It is also why I've advocated Knights Stance *should* have been designed to only work with 2handers, pushing the crusader max dps 'stance' to one that is truely offensive. Giving the class what I would believe is a strong dps advantage when using a 2hander, but not a common choice for raid tanking.</blockquote>If knight stance worked with 2 handers it would raise crusaders already OP DPS levels even higher. Knight stance should just be removed TBH.

Macross_JR

07-18-2010, 07:13 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for the post with the math detailed. My understanding matches what you've laid out.It is also why I've advocated Knights Stance *should* have been designed to only work with 2handers, pushing the crusader max dps 'stance' to one that is truely offensive. Giving the class what I would believe is a strong dps advantage when using a 2hander, but not a common choice for raid tanking.</blockquote>If knight stance worked with 2 handers it would raise crusaders already OP DPS levels even higher. Knight stance should just be removed TBH.</blockquote>but they would then not have the survivability that they currently have and that is what most people would rather want. let them have their dps, but make them pay for it by not being as defensive.

BChizzle

07-18-2010, 07:43 PM

<cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for the post with the math detailed. My understanding matches what you've laid out.It is also why I've advocated Knights Stance *should* have been designed to only work with 2handers, pushing the crusader max dps 'stance' to one that is truely offensive. Giving the class what I would believe is a strong dps advantage when using a 2hander, but not a common choice for raid tanking.</blockquote>If knight stance worked with 2 handers it would raise crusaders already OP DPS levels even higher. Knight stance should just be removed TBH.</blockquote>but they would then not have the survivability that they currently have and that is what most people would rather want. let them have their dps, but make them pay for it by not being as defensive.</blockquote>Newsflash a crusader without Knight Stance still outparses the rest of teh tank classes.

Bruener

07-18-2010, 09:41 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>We've been over this time and time again. Knight stance is superior to crit bonus as the crit bonus become less and less of an advantage as you get more.</blockquote>For just auto attack this is true. However we are not just talking about auto attack because that is only a portion of a tanks DPS.Yes a static 20% crit bonus does seem to become less over time because it becomes actual less % of DPS. However we don't know what is happening in the future and all you can do is compare how the numbers look in todays game.Overall increase of 20% crit bonus is more of a DPS increase simply because KS only affects auto attack and doesn't work on 2h weps the better they get in the game and Crusaders can't DW, and it wouldn't work with that anyway...where as crit bonus works with both of those options and all abilities used.I would prefer KS be changed to 15% bonus to all wep types.....but all that would do is raise DPS a little for Crusaders using a 2h and lower it a little while using a shield.

BChizzle

07-18-2010, 09:59 PM

Yimway

07-18-2010, 10:14 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes a static 20% crit bonus does seem to become less over time because it becomes actual less % of DPS. However we don't know what is happening in the future and all you can do is compare how the numbers look in todays game.</blockquote>Today's game is all that is relevant, what comes with the next level increase, can of course force global changes. But the status quot isn't expected to change too terribly much unless they've got big plans they've not told anyone about.

BChizzle

07-19-2010, 12:45 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes a static 20% crit bonus does seem to become less over time because it becomes actual less % of DPS. However we don't know what is happening in the future and all you can do is compare how the numbers look in todays game.</blockquote>Today's game is all that is relevant, what comes with the next level increase, can of course force global changes. But the status quot isn't expected to change too terribly much unless they've got big plans they've not told anyone about.</blockquote>Fact is todays game an SK without Knights Stance on their 2 hander still outparses all other tanks wearing that same 2 hander.

Soul_Dreamer

07-19-2010, 06:20 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>We've been over this time and time again. Knight stance is superior to crit bonus as the crit bonus become less and less of an advantage as you get more.</blockquote>For just auto attack this is true. However we are not just talking about auto attack because that is only a portion of a tanks DPS.Yes a static 20% crit bonus does seem to become less over time because it becomes actual less % of DPS. However we don't know what is happening in the future and all you can do is compare how the numbers look in todays game.Overall increase of 20% crit bonus is more of a DPS increase simply because KS only affects auto attack and doesn't work on 2h weps the better they get in the game and Crusaders can't DW, and it wouldn't work with that anyway...where as crit bonus works with both of those options and all abilities used.I would prefer KS be changed to 15% bonus to all wep types.....but all that would do is raise DPS a little for Crusaders using a 2h and lower it a little while using a shield.</blockquote>See I'd prefer it was changed to 15% for 2handers only, as was pointed out so many times by Crusaders from KoS to TSO, buckler line gave Warriors the ability to almost max their DPS while having a shield equipped, this was apparently game breaking for balance. Now the scales have tipped and Crusaders have this ability that does exactly the same thing you're claiming it's fine and not as good as we all know it is.You claim it effects AA damage only and yet this is still a high portion of total damage (30% approx). Even at it's lowest (non critting values) you've increased 30% of your DPS by 25% which is a total increase in DPS of about 8%, add in 100% crit and high crit bonuses and this goes higher. One ability shouldn't give this much of a gain especially when wearing a shield.The only class that should be able to max it's DPS while keeping their uncontested avoidance is Brawlers, this OP ability needs changing to 2 handers only to make them a viable DPS option, anything else is just adding to the already OP abilities of Crusaders.

Bruener

07-19-2010, 10:39 AM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>We've been over this time and time again. Knight stance is superior to crit bonus as the crit bonus become less and less of an advantage as you get more.</blockquote>For just auto attack this is true. However we are not just talking about auto attack because that is only a portion of a tanks DPS.Yes a static 20% crit bonus does seem to become less over time because it becomes actual less % of DPS. However we don't know what is happening in the future and all you can do is compare how the numbers look in todays game.Overall increase of 20% crit bonus is more of a DPS increase simply because KS only affects auto attack and doesn't work on 2h weps the better they get in the game and Crusaders can't DW, and it wouldn't work with that anyway...where as crit bonus works with both of those options and all abilities used.I would prefer KS be changed to 15% bonus to all wep types.....but all that would do is raise DPS a little for Crusaders using a 2h and lower it a little while using a shield.</blockquote>See I'd prefer it was changed to 15% for 2handers only, as was pointed out so many times by Crusaders from KoS to TSO, buckler line gave Warriors the ability to almost max their DPS while having a shield equipped, this was apparently game breaking for balance. Now the scales have tipped and Crusaders have this ability that does exactly the same thing you're claiming it's fine and not as good as we all know it is.You claim it effects AA damage only and yet this is still a high portion of total damage (30% approx). Even at it's lowest (non critting values) you've increased 30% of your DPS by 25% which is a total increase in DPS of about 8%, add in 100% crit and high crit bonuses and this goes higher. One ability shouldn't give this much of a gain especially when wearing a shield.The only class that should be able to max it's DPS while keeping their uncontested avoidance is Brawlers, this OP ability needs changing to 2 handers only to make them a viable DPS option, anything else is just adding to the already OP abilities of Crusaders.</blockquote>No the huge difference between KS and the old buckler line is that the old buckler line with making it easy for Warriors to max out DA while using a buckler and the same line giving them a good chunck of uncontested avoidance. The buckler line literally doubled the Warriors auto attack. The requirement of wearing a buckler was a joke since the line itself gave like an additional 8% uncontested avoid.An example of how that would be today would be if KS added 100% base to wep damage. That way it literally doubles auto attack damage. To make it fair they could require Crusaders to use a buckler.....and than change the ability to also add 10% uncontested avoid.That was the problem with the buckler line and really they aren't even a close comparison. Warriors were capping DA long before other classes could even get 20% DA.

Yimway

07-19-2010, 11:52 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fact is todays game an SK without Knights Stance on their 2 hander still outparses all other tanks wearing that same 2 hander.</blockquote>I would sort of agree a crusader should top the plate tanks in dps generation, providing they sacrafice enough survivability when doing so. Brawlers however, should still be kings of dps generation in their offensive build.Regardless though, Knight's Stance on a crusader just makes infinately more since to be for 2handers. Any bonus for sword and board should be for TPS only, reguardless of the class.

BChizzle

07-19-2010, 12:05 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fact is todays game an SK without Knights Stance on their 2 hander still outparses all other tanks wearing that same 2 hander.</blockquote>I would sort of agree a crusader should top the plate tanks in dps generation, providing they sacrafice enough survivability when doing so. Brawlers however, should still be kings of dps generation in their offensive build.Regardless though, Knight's Stance on a crusader just makes infinately more since to be for 2handers. Any bonus for sword and board should be for TPS only, reguardless of the class.</blockquote>Knight Stance is supposed to make up for the fact that crusaders can't dual wield, it makes absolutely no sense for it to be tied to wearing a 2 hander.

Bruener

07-19-2010, 12:19 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fact is todays game an SK without Knights Stance on their 2 hander still outparses all other tanks wearing that same 2 hander.</blockquote>I would sort of agree a crusader should top the plate tanks in dps generation, providing they sacrafice enough survivability when doing so. Brawlers however, should still be kings of dps generation in their offensive build.Regardless though, Knight's Stance on a crusader just makes infinately more since to be for 2handers. Any bonus for sword and board should be for TPS only, reguardless of the class.</blockquote>Knight Stance is supposed to make up for the fact that crusaders can't dual wield, it makes absolutely no sense for it to be tied to wearing a 2 hander.</blockquote>Correct, KS the way it is is exactly because Crusaders can't DW, 2h itemization has never been right, and most importantly Epic weps were all 1h weps.Epic weps were specifically designed to last a couple xpacs as the best wep to use for every class.....making KS a 2h AA would have meant that epic weps would have been best in slot for everybody....except Crusaders. Also, epic weps were far ahead of any other weps at the time, so good that a 1h epic wep was just plain better than any 2h weps. It would have been pretty lacking for Crusaders than.I would love to see KS changed to just 15% base bonus across the board, which than might make 2h weps worth using. Or change it to 25% base with a 2h only. Other classes have a lot of incentive to use a 2h wep in situations....100% AE auto attack, +flurry, etc.But the whiners will whine no matter what until the AA is made useless.

BChizzle

07-19-2010, 12:56 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fact is todays game an SK without Knights Stance on their 2 hander still outparses all other tanks wearing that same 2 hander.</blockquote>I would sort of agree a crusader should top the plate tanks in dps generation, providing they sacrafice enough survivability when doing so. Brawlers however, should still be kings of dps generation in their offensive build.Regardless though, Knight's Stance on a crusader just makes infinately more since to be for 2handers. Any bonus for sword and board should be for TPS only, reguardless of the class.</blockquote>Knight Stance is supposed to make up for the fact that crusaders can't dual wield, it makes absolutely no sense for it to be tied to wearing a 2 hander.</blockquote>Correct, KS the way it is is exactly because Crusaders can't DW, 2h itemization has never been right, and most importantly Epic weps were all 1h weps.Epic weps were specifically designed to last a couple xpacs as the best wep to use for every class.....making KS a 2h AA would have meant that epic weps would have been best in slot for everybody....except Crusaders. Also, epic weps were far ahead of any other weps at the time, so good that a 1h epic wep was just plain better than any 2h weps. It would have been pretty lacking for Crusaders than.I would love to see KS changed to just 15% base bonus across the board, which than might make 2h weps worth using. Or change it to 25% base with a 2h only. Other classes have a lot of incentive to use a 2h wep in situations....100% AE auto attack, +flurry, etc.But the whiners will whine no matter what until the AA is made useless.</blockquote>2 handers are already worth using. All making KS for 2 handed weaps will do is make an already overpowered class even more overpowered.

Wasuna

07-19-2010, 02:17 PM

KS is a game breaker. It's allows Crusaders to pump out 1.5-2x the DPS a Guardian can while DWing and in offensive and the Crusader having a hugh HUGH advantage to survivability. Dunno what they can change to fix this but it is what it is.Putting KS on a 2 hander would just put the SK's DPS even higher when in DPS mode. They are already pushing T2 type DPS so we really want them to push T1 DPS? This is unacceptable for any fighters unless you change all your armor to cloth and lose the ability to put your shiled in when that AA is up.In full offensive Crusaders have 30%+ more survivability and 1.5-2x more dps than Guardians. You can call facts a whine but it doesn't change that it's still a fact.I'm happy to see what comes out of the recent Guardian inspection. What they are currently offering is crap and doesn't addres anything that is truly the unbalanced items between the fighetrs like KS but we'll see where it goes. They said they were going to look at things in pieces. If they keep offering similar pieces I suspect you'll see MUCH fewer Guardians than there are now.

BChizzle

07-19-2010, 02:22 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>KS is a game breaker. It's allows Crusaders to pump out 1.5-2x the DPS a Guardian can while DWing and in offensive and the Crusader having a hugh HUGH advantage to survivability. Dunno what they can change to fix this but it is what it is.Putting KS on a 2 hander would just put the SK's DPS even higher when in DPS mode. They are already pushing T2 type DPS so we really want them to push T1 DPS? This is unacceptable for any fighters unless you change all your armor to cloth and lose the ability to put your shiled in when that AA is up.In full offensive Crusaders have 30%+ more survivability and 1.5-2x more dps than Guardians. You can call facts a whine but it doesn't change that it's still a fact.I'm happy to see what comes out of the recent Guardian inspection. What they are currently offering is crap and doesn't addres anything that is truly the unbalanced items between the fighetrs like KS but we'll see where it goes. They said they were going to look at things in pieces. If they keep offering similar pieces I suspect you'll see MUCH fewer Guardians than there are now.</blockquote>Have you ever looked at a crusader parse? KS has very little to do with the DPS difference between a crusader and a DW guard.

Yimway

07-19-2010, 02:28 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Knight Stance is supposed to make up for the fact that crusaders can't dual wield, it makes absolutely no sense for it to be tied to wearing a 2 hander.</blockquote>How doesn't it? Does a warrior get uncontested avoidance dual wielding? KS only affecting 2handers actually makes the most sense. I understand it wasn't initially done this way primarily due to myths, but that is no longer a deciding factor.

circusgirl

07-19-2010, 02:32 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only class that should be able to max it's DPS while keeping their uncontested avoidance is Brawlers, this OP ability needs changing to 2 handers only to make them a viable DPS option, anything else is just adding to the already OP abilities of Crusaders.</blockquote>Ironically, brawlers are the only class that is incapable of dpsing while keeping our uncontested avoidance. Because all of our avoidance is tied to our defensive stance, we're no better than scouts in our offensive stance. To have max survivability a brawler has to switch out our gear, stance, and weapons. I lose 2/3rds of my dps if I go into full survivability mode.

BChizzle

07-19-2010, 03:00 PM

Yimway

07-19-2010, 04:11 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are trying to argue two seperate issues. Let me ask you this, if KS made a sheild worth 0 avoidance when it was on then wouldn't it solve this issue better? If KS only worked with a symbol in the off hand wouldn't that be a better solution? Buffing a crusaders 2 handed ability is not a good fix.</blockquote>It would accomplish the same goal while removing something that could be a more significant class defining attribute.As I see it, KS in its current form was as big of a mistake as the buckler line was in ROK. They were both done as a shortcut necesaty to get enough aggro on the classes to do their jobs. And cause making taunts work was too hard, they dreamed up these OP modifiers to bump dps to compensate.They need to clean up all these previous, poor design choices. There is plenty of room for the classes to be deversified, have flavor, and still be balanced.

Wasuna

07-19-2010, 04:35 PM

However you fix the problem of a Crusader being able to pump out DPS with the benefit of a shield equiped is fine by me except for adding KS to a 2 hander. My wife is an Assassin and I don't want her spot in a raid taken away due to a SK being able to get near her DPS and have plate armor and be able to tank with just a couple of button clicks to cange out his weapon for a shield.No fighter should have their biggest and best defensive abilities while in DPS mode. Brawlers should not have uncontested avoidance when in DPS mode just like Crusaders should not be able tro wear a shield and pump out DPS.When you make statements about fighters think about cake.. you can't keep it and eat it at the same time.... Fighters should be like that and we should NEVER approach the level of what the other classes can do due to the simple fact that we have the choice to do that and they do not. Everybody would scream and yell if the MT on a raid was a wizard. Everybody should stand on their toes and beat drums when ANY fighters gets close to a real DPS classes or when a fighter even gets close to getting on the heal parse. Period.

circusgirl

07-19-2010, 06:34 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>However you fix the problem of a Crusader being able to pump out DPS with the benefit of a shield equiped is fine by me except for adding KS to a 2 hander. My wife is an Assassin and I don't want her spot in a raid taken away due to a SK being able to get near her DPS and have plate armor and be able to tank with just a couple of button clicks to cange out his weapon for a shield.No fighter should have their biggest and best defensive abilities while in DPS mode. Brawlers should not have uncontested avoidance when in DPS mode just like Crusaders should not be able tro wear a shield and pump out DPS.When you make statements about fighters think about cake.. you can't keep it and eat it at the same time.... Fighters should be like that and we should NEVER approach the level of what the other classes can do due to the simple fact that we have the choice to do that and they do not. Everybody would scream and yell if the MT on a raid was a wizard. Everybody should stand on their toes and beat drums when ANY fighters gets close to a real DPS classes or when a fighter even gets close to getting on the heal parse. Period.</blockquote>If you think that the state that brawlers are currently in (having to go defensive to have any avoidance at all) is healthy for the game, then you should be advocating that ALL block be contested unless the tank is in defensive stance. This helps solve the problem that KS helped create too--crusaders won't be able to do max dps while having max survivability if they have to be in defensive to have uncontested avoidance.

Wasuna

07-19-2010, 06:45 PM

However it balances out yeah. If your going to DPS then you need to be made of paper. If your gonna tank then your DPS needs to be crap with some mechanic for TPS generation.

Prestissimo

07-19-2010, 06:55 PM

In general it needs to be dps tanking = low survivability, tps tanking = high survivability, and dps tanking < tps tanking hate wise. If dpsing can hold more hate than anything else, there is only one logical choice. If tps holds more hate than dps does, you have 2 logical choices; dps to kill the mob faster and the dps that can really make the numbers fly will have to hold back, or tps and let the dps go bananas; tailor to the need at hand.I have no problem with knight stance being replaced with base 1.5 melee crit because KS is overpowered once you start getting into min/maxing and stacking percents on percents. Namely, it becomes overpowered once you get stacked in high end gear. It's worthless until you get 125 aas, so most players below 70 wont see any use from it, and would sooner benefit from having the same 1.5 base melee crit mod despite the incredibly low amount of crit gear at the lower levels.KS was great in TSO to make up for the fact that crusaders could not DW and every 2H choice was either crap that gushed fail sauce, or it was a steaming pile of discolored crap that gushed fail sauce. I've never really liked that there wasn't a punishment for the gained dps though.

Aull

07-19-2010, 08:20 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Fact is todays game an SK without Knights Stance on their 2 hander still outparses all other tanks wearing that same 2 hander.</blockquote>I would sort of agree a crusader should top the plate tanks in dps generation, providing they sacrafice enough survivability when doing so. Brawlers however, should still be kings of dps generation in their offensive build.Regardless though, Knight's Stance on a crusader just makes infinately more since to be for 2handers. Any bonus for sword and board should be for TPS only, reguardless of the class.</blockquote>I agree since brawlers loose so much survival when in offensive stance but this isn't the case since most brawlers are not putting up any higher numbers than crusaders or zerkers using their offensive stance.

Soul_Dreamer

07-19-2010, 10:07 PM

Sorry Bruener, I disagree, KS and Buckler line are very similar and have the same issue. Both offer substantial increases to DPS while scrificing no survivability.Buckler line added DA and allowed for almost the same survivability as a tower shield.KS adds 25% base damage to the weapon and allows you to keep your tower shield.As much as I hate to say it, you can't change it to 1 hander and symbol because symbol itemisation is even worse than 2 hander itemisation is. While I believe the ability to be overpowering I don't think it should be nerfed to uselessness. 2 Hander damage isn't equal to duel weilding damage, there is a discrepancy there. SOE needs to do some parsing between 2 hander auto attack DPS and duel weild auto attack DPS and then use this ability to make up the difference. All tanks are then at an even footing on Auto attack damage and any other adjustments to classes can be done to balance DPS.

Rahatmattata

07-19-2010, 10:37 PM

I've tried explaining the knight's stance = old warrior buckler line to brownie before, but he doesn't get it. His argument that having 60% double attack > 25% AA damage is dumb, because he can also have 60% double attack in addition to 25% AA bonus through gear buffs and potions, while I cannot have 25% AA bonus unless I roll a shadoknight or paladin.It was the same situation in old expansion that made guards apparently OP. Guards had access to 60% double attack which was pretty much impossible for any other tank to have. Especially while keeping uncontested avoidance. Now the tables have turned, it's the exact same situation as before, but the buff increasing dps is called something else now. Of course brownie calls it balanced when it's his cookie.

Yimway

07-20-2010, 01:14 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>It was the same situation in old expansion that made guards apparently OP. Guards had access to 60% double attack which was pretty much impossible for any other tank to have. Especially while keeping uncontested avoidance. Now the tables have turned, it's the exact same situation as before, but the buff increasing dps is called something else now. Of course brownie calls it balanced when it's his cookie.</blockquote>Everyone loses sight of what is relevent in this debate. The buckler DA existed, cause without it there was NO WAY anyone could hold aggro with the way dps buffed in RoK and hate remained static. It was a crutch buff to make raiding feasable. Warriors got DA, Paladins had amends, and no one else could really consider MTing. That was pretty much RoK.In todays game though, hate scales with gear and stats much better, and no dps crutch is needed for any tanks to hold aggro. KS needs a change for the exact same reasons warriors needed a nerfing previously.It is no longer required to do the job, and all it does now is allow crusaders to pump more dps than should be reasonable while also tanking and having the highest survivability while pushing out their dps envelope.I don't care that they can push out the dps they do, I think they should be able to. They however should take a big survivability hit when doing so, and thats where the system breaks today. Particularly given the dps hate boost is no longer needed to manage aggro like it was in previous expansions.

Prestissimo

07-22-2010, 01:08 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Knight Stance is supposed to make up for the fact that crusaders can't dual wield, it makes absolutely no sense for it to be tied to wearing a 2 hander.</blockquote>How doesn't it? Does a warrior get uncontested avoidance dual wielding? KS only affecting 2handers actually makes the most sense. I understand it wasn't initially done this way primarily due to myths, but that is no longer a deciding factor. </blockquote>Why not just make KS only work when there is not a shield equipped. Many crusaders only have their one handed weapon equipped, maybe one other, and maybe a two handed weapon because DW doesn't exist for them. You'll often times find crusaders carrying around a symbol or w/e for their secondary slot that gives dps stats/effects that are desired if they don't have 2h options available to them or the 2h options they do have in their possetion aren't that much better.The main arguement and problem with KS is that it gives too much bonus while in sword and board because others can't get the same type of output while in defensive. The problem is when you compare it with defensive considerations in mind and not really so much so when you're considering offensive considerations. Simple solution is to prevent KS from being used in a defensive situation, so simply restrict it based on the one thing that differentiates defensive with offensive plate tanks: the shield. At least for paladins that means no more stonewall until after swapping back in their shield. SK's furror still works without a shield iirc.

Soul_Dreamer

07-26-2010, 06:45 AM

Or increase it with a Symbol, I was originally thinking this was a bad idea because there aren't many Symbols in game useful for a Crusader, if a couple where added to drop tables though it would be a valid alternative. 1 Hander and Symbol will have the advantage of being able to swap a shield in, you can't insta swap a 2 hander for a 1hander/shield due to not being able to swap 2 items that fast ( don't think anyway). Means close to the DPS of a 2 hander but with the advantage of being able to go defensive quicker. There are also more decent 1 handers out there than there are 2 handers.OR15% to 1hander/Symbol and 15% to 2 hander to keep 2 handers more viable.Either way, Knights stance doesn't make up for anything and is just another OP ability for already OP classes, those using this argument are away with the fairies, already both Crusaders can out DPS both Warriors and the Warriors have to be duel wielding to DPS so loose all their avoidance.

MurFalad

07-26-2010, 11:40 AM

Thanks Steelbadger for the post, that was very interesting.The rule of boosting hits that are below the maximum weapon damage up makes sense if a crit is a rare occurance because that way each crit was always special hit (ie its not wasted on a small weapon damage roll), but with 100%+ crit rates now its more of an oddity in the game mechanics.

gatrm

08-25-2010, 03:16 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>KS is a game breaker. It's allows Crusaders to pump out 1.5-2x the DPS a Guardian can while DWing and in offensive and the Crusader having a hugh HUGH advantage to survivability. Dunno what they can change to fix this but it is what it is.Putting KS on a 2 hander would just put the SK's DPS even higher when in DPS mode. They are already pushing T2 type DPS so we really want them to push T1 DPS? This is unacceptable for any fighters unless you change all your armor to cloth and lose the ability to put your shiled in when that AA is up.In full offensive Crusaders have 30%+ more survivability and 1.5-2x more dps than Guardians. You can call facts a whine but it doesn't change that it's still a fact.I'm happy to see what comes out of the recent Guardian inspection. What they are currently offering is crap and doesn't addres anything that is truly the unbalanced items between the fighetrs like KS but we'll see where it goes. They said they were going to look at things in pieces. If they keep offering similar pieces I suspect you'll see MUCH fewer Guardians than there are now.</blockquote>Allowing crusaders to keep their avoidance while maxing their dps is what most people seem to have an issue with. Making KS work for 2h only would fix that because using a 2h weapon, the crusader loses the survivability that comes from wearing a shield. So dps mode, a crusader would go 2h, lose the survivability and gain dps. Tanking mode, they would put up a shield, lose the dps and gain survivability.Mind you, If crusaders could dual wield, I'd take that any day over KS or 2h for dps because dw is more dps plain and simple, but crusaders can't dual wield.

Wasuna

08-25-2010, 04:42 PM

I agree 100% that Knights Stance should be eitehr removed or reworked so that it does not provide extra DPS while wearing a shiled.I 100% think it should NEVER be applied to a 2H weapon setup. This would just push the Crusaders DPS even higher than it is now.The tank in a group toping the DPS and Heal parse is just wrong and I'll not agree to a change that makes that worse.

Landiin

08-25-2010, 06:13 PM

With the new 2 hander mechanics going in, no way in hell should crusaders get a boots from KS any more.

Hikinami

08-25-2010, 06:59 PM

There are no fighter/crusader symbols. Really now that stats have changed it's even more laughable to suggest than it was before. We got to use bows because they couldn't itemize symbols for what we needed and now that stats are combined it's even dumber to expect a crusader to use a mage item. And the last thing we need is people groaning at another piece of specialist gear dropping instead of what the majority can use.I don't know the answer to this debate but it's certainly not symbols.

Jeal

08-25-2010, 08:03 PM

unbelievable.. just ... absolutely unbelievable.. i see almost no logic here... and i see complete discountance of the fact that the 20% extra crit bonus that warriors/brawlers gets is somehow less than 25 damage bonus to ONLY auto attack damage20 bonus effects all your cas AND auto attack (yes crit bonus is less than the KS to auto attack ONLY)it affects procs like cob pom and other huge portions of your damage...our max dps while max defense is a ridiculous argument considering we have to put on dps gear just like you do.. we may have more than a dual wielding warrior/brawler but they should pump out more single target dps easily.. just cause you DON'T (ie you aren't so great at this game) doesn't mean you CAN'Tnone of you ever consider skill level raid setup or skill of surrounding people.. you just assume cause bard 1 does this and crusader 2 does that.. that somehow thats the way it is for everyone... also at least be at the top of your own class if you're going to nerf cry others.. i've yet to see the cream of the crop players go completely ballistic and call for nerfs.. they always call for balance ie fixing their own classes issues while letting other classes alone... its always the people that can't maximize that whine the hardest about other classes being OP... saddens me......... sigh

Bruener

08-25-2010, 08:11 PM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>unbelievable.. just ... absolutely unbelievable.. i see almost no logic here... and i see complete discountance of the fact that the 20% extra crit bonus that warriors/brawlers gets is somehow less than 25 damage bonus to ONLY auto attack damage20 bonus effects all your cas AND auto attack (yes crit bonus is less than the KS to auto attack ONLY)it affects procs like cob pom and other huge portions of your damage...our max dps while max defense is a ridiculous argument considering we have to put on dps gear just like you do.. we may have more than a dual wielding warrior/brawler but they should pump out more single target dps easily.. just cause you DON'T (ie you aren't so great at this game) doesn't mean you CAN'Tnone of you ever consider skill level raid setup or skill of surrounding people.. you just assume cause bard 1 does this and crusader 2 does that.. that somehow thats the way it is for everyone... also at least be at the top of your own class if you're going to nerf cry others.. i've yet to see the cream of the crop players go completely ballistic and call for nerfs.. they always call for balance ie fixing their own classes issues while letting other classes alone... its always the people that can't maximize that whine the hardest about other classes being OP... saddens me......... sigh</blockquote>^^^^^^^Yeah.How about that 20 crit bonus to VC.....yeah that ability that playing with a good bard will be the number 1 damage in peoples parse logs.

BChizzle

08-25-2010, 08:13 PM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>unbelievable.. just ... absolutely unbelievable.. i see almost no logic here... and i see complete discountance of the fact that the 20% extra crit bonus that warriors/brawlers gets is somehow less than 25 damage bonus to ONLY auto attack damage20 bonus effects all your cas AND auto attack (yes crit bonus is less than the KS to auto attack ONLY)it affects procs like cob pom and other huge portions of your damage...our max dps while max defense is a ridiculous argument considering we have to put on dps gear just like you do.. we may have more than a dual wielding warrior/brawler but they should pump out more single target dps easily.. just cause you DON'T (ie you aren't so great at this game) doesn't mean you CAN'Tnone of you ever consider skill level raid setup or skill of surrounding people.. you just assume cause bard 1 does this and crusader 2 does that.. that somehow thats the way it is for everyone... also at least be at the top of your own class if you're going to nerf cry others.. i've yet to see the cream of the crop players go completely ballistic and call for nerfs.. they always call for balance ie fixing their own classes issues while letting other classes alone... its always the people that can't maximize that whine the hardest about other classes being OP... saddens me......... sigh</blockquote>You really don't have the slightest clue do you? I have spelled it out plainly and in crayon for you slow people as to why KS is completely and absolutely more powerful then an extra .2 crit bonus sorry simple logic is too hard for you to grasp. Instead of calling out people who supposedly have less skill then you how about you learn basic math.

Bruener

08-25-2010, 08:29 PM

Oh and LETS TALK ABOUT THE CURRENT CHANGE INC....DW'ing offhand now gets to flurry and AE auto attack. 20 crit bonus on both weps that basically mirror each other.I just feel so bad for those DW'ing classes.

Soul_Dreamer

08-25-2010, 08:41 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh and LETS TALK ABOUT THE CURRENT CHANGE INC....DW'ing offhand now gets to flurry and AE auto attack. 20 crit bonus on both weps that basically mirror each other.I just feel so bad for those DW'ing classes.</blockquote>I notice how you've conveniently not mentioned the improvements to 2 handers which while they've not said whats happening they have said changes are coming. People aren't complaining that you have to swap in gear to max DPS, they're complaining that you get to keep your UNCONTESTED AVOIDANCE while you're doing that. Swap all the sodding gear you like but you'l still have ~30% avoidance and do close to your max DPS.And great as a Guardian I get to sacrifice all my avoid to DW and hold agro off the scouts and OT Zerker, then when I have to tank something hard I have to get my shield out and the scouts are now doing tons more DPS. The Zerker with Adrenaline doesn't have to switch to the Board as often so his DPS is higher as well.. great, yeah I'm loving this change! It's stupid and should be left as is...

Bruener

08-25-2010, 10:00 PM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh and LETS TALK ABOUT THE CURRENT CHANGE INC....DW'ing offhand now gets to flurry and AE auto attack. 20 crit bonus on both weps that basically mirror each other.I just feel so bad for those DW'ing classes.</blockquote>I notice how you've conveniently not mentioned the improvements to 2 handers which while they've not said whats happening they have said changes are coming. People aren't complaining that you have to swap in gear to max DPS, they're complaining that you get to keep your UNCONTESTED AVOIDANCE while you're doing that. Swap all the sodding gear you like but you'l still have ~30% avoidance and do close to your max DPS.And great as a Guardian I get to sacrifice all my avoid to DW and hold agro off the scouts and OT Zerker, then when I have to tank something hard I have to get my shield out and the scouts are now doing tons more DPS. The Zerker with Adrenaline doesn't have to switch to the Board as often so his DPS is higher as well.. great, yeah I'm loving this change! It's stupid and should be left as is...</blockquote>More in response to BC btw...a full time DW'ing class.And as for 2h the reason we can't talk about them is because there has been 0 said about em. Unlike Bows and DW'ing. And if they do make 2h better, it still negates this argument as you pointed out about using a shield.

BChizzle

08-25-2010, 10:10 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh and LETS TALK ABOUT THE CURRENT CHANGE INC....DW'ing offhand now gets to flurry and AE auto attack. 20 crit bonus on both weps that basically mirror each other.I just feel so bad for those DW'ing classes.</blockquote>I notice how you've conveniently not mentioned the improvements to 2 handers which while they've not said whats happening they have said changes are coming. People aren't complaining that you have to swap in gear to max DPS, they're complaining that you get to keep your UNCONTESTED AVOIDANCE while you're doing that. Swap all the sodding gear you like but you'l still have ~30% avoidance and do close to your max DPS.And great as a Guardian I get to sacrifice all my avoid to DW and hold agro off the scouts and OT Zerker, then when I have to tank something hard I have to get my shield out and the scouts are now doing tons more DPS. The Zerker with Adrenaline doesn't have to switch to the Board as often so his DPS is higher as well.. great, yeah I'm loving this change! It's stupid and should be left as is...</blockquote>More in response to BC btw...a full time DW'ing class.And as for 2h the reason we can't talk about them is because there has been 0 said about em. Unlike Bows and DW'ing. And if they do make 2h better, it still negates this argument as you pointed out about using a shield.</blockquote>Conveniently leave out the fact brawlers get absolute garbage for 2 handed weapons, even with the DW changes a 2 handed type theer weapon would still be crazy all the changes do is even up DW dps with 2 handed dps.

Bruener

08-25-2010, 10:21 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh and LETS TALK ABOUT THE CURRENT CHANGE INC....DW'ing offhand now gets to flurry and AE auto attack. 20 crit bonus on both weps that basically mirror each other.I just feel so bad for those DW'ing classes.</blockquote>I notice how you've conveniently not mentioned the improvements to 2 handers which while they've not said whats happening they have said changes are coming. People aren't complaining that you have to swap in gear to max DPS, they're complaining that you get to keep your UNCONTESTED AVOIDANCE while you're doing that. Swap all the sodding gear you like but you'l still have ~30% avoidance and do close to your max DPS.And great as a Guardian I get to sacrifice all my avoid to DW and hold agro off the scouts and OT Zerker, then when I have to tank something hard I have to get my shield out and the scouts are now doing tons more DPS. The Zerker with Adrenaline doesn't have to switch to the Board as often so his DPS is higher as well.. great, yeah I'm loving this change! It's stupid and should be left as is...</blockquote>More in response to BC btw...a full time DW'ing class.And as for 2h the reason we can't talk about them is because there has been 0 said about em. Unlike Bows and DW'ing. And if they do make 2h better, it still negates this argument as you pointed out about using a shield.</blockquote>Conveniently leave out the fact brawlers get absolute garbage for 2 handed weapons, even with the DW changes a 2 handed type theer weapon would still be crazy all the changes do is even up DW dps with 2 handed dps.</blockquote>Yeah smoke another one. DW > 2h before changes. After they are going to blow 2h away.

BChizzle

08-25-2010, 11:06 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oh and LETS TALK ABOUT THE CURRENT CHANGE INC....DW'ing offhand now gets to flurry and AE auto attack. 20 crit bonus on both weps that basically mirror each other.I just feel so bad for those DW'ing classes.</blockquote>I notice how you've conveniently not mentioned the improvements to 2 handers which while they've not said whats happening they have said changes are coming. People aren't complaining that you have to swap in gear to max DPS, they're complaining that you get to keep your UNCONTESTED AVOIDANCE while you're doing that. Swap all the sodding gear you like but you'l still have ~30% avoidance and do close to your max DPS.And great as a Guardian I get to sacrifice all my avoid to DW and hold agro off the scouts and OT Zerker, then when I have to tank something hard I have to get my shield out and the scouts are now doing tons more DPS. The Zerker with Adrenaline doesn't have to switch to the Board as often so his DPS is higher as well.. great, yeah I'm loving this change! It's stupid and should be left as is...</blockquote>More in response to BC btw...a full time DW'ing class.And as for 2h the reason we can't talk about them is because there has been 0 said about em. Unlike Bows and DW'ing. And if they do make 2h better, it still negates this argument as you pointed out about using a shield.</blockquote>Conveniently leave out the fact brawlers get absolute garbage for 2 handed weapons, even with the DW changes a 2 handed type theer weapon would still be crazy all the changes do is even up DW dps with 2 handed dps.</blockquote>Yeah smoke another one. DW > 2h before changes. After they are going to blow 2h away.</blockquote>Thats funny since the absolute top parses come with a 2 hander equipped.

Landiin

08-26-2010, 12:28 AM

If you bothered keeping up you would know they are and have talked about changing (improving) 2 hander dmg quite a bit.

Cyrdemac

08-26-2010, 05:38 AM

I might remind everybody, that even IF Knights Stance is switched to 2H weapons and IF crusaders are forced to use a 2H weapon to DPS (and there are only a few fabled 2H weapons on droplists anyway), you have to include the delay of switching weapons.Warriors can switch from DW to S+B with just one click and be back in tanking action. Crusaders have 2 clicks including a forced few-seconds-delay until they are back, because they dont just switch a weapon for a shield, but a weapon for a weapon AND a shield, therefore they take much longer before they can switch from DPS to Tanking. So IF crusaders are forced to use 2H for DPS, this should also be adressed.Since I like 2H weapons anyway, I was never opposed to this role for DPS. When do crusaders get parry on their def stance? Or block? Or anything useful?

Boli32

08-26-2010, 07:04 AM

Sorry for the length.People also forget if knight's stance was removed completly and say replaced with: "10% chance to proc bunny love on target hit".. bascially meaning every single crusader specs out of it we still have warriors and brawlers with an additional 20% crit bonus which is convienently forgotten about every time the knight's stance is mentioned; even if it does so in the title.So whilst this increases autoattack damage by 25%; it does not encompass the entire parse. Since On average 23% of my parse is slashing; this means Knight's Stance gives a total damage increase of 5.75%.Crit bonus gives a flat increase to crits for ALL ATTACKS, CAs as well as autoattack;A 800-1000 damage with 70% crit bonus1600-2000 damage for crusaders1760-2200 for warriors/brawlersAutoattack which does 200-1200 with 70% crit bonus1201-2400 damage for crusaders1201-2640 damage for warriors/brawlersWhich translated as 20% crit bonus gives:10% bonus to autoattack damage on a crit or CA used.If we discount procs and debuffs which reduce crit chance to 70% we can conclude that 70% of any warrior/brawlers parse is effected by 20% crit bonus. that means 20% crit bonus will give an increase to damage of 7%Going stupidly on the high end A 800-1000 damage with 170% crit bonus2400-3000 damage for crusaders2560-3200 for warriors/brawlersAutoattack which does 200-1200 with 170% crit bonus1201-3600 damage for crusaders1201-3840 damage for warriors/brawlersCA damage increased by 6.66%AA damage increased by 6.66%20% crit bonus gives an increase of the parse by 4.66%Somewhere down the line.. perhaps at 150% self buffed crit bonus knight's stance (which is autoatatck only) buff will match the 20% crit bonus buff. Both of which buffs can be used in defensive gear in defensive stance with a shield equiped.Funny thing is: in full def stance/gear the major thing that changes is your hit rate which will compound knight's stance further as if you miss the attack you don;t get the 25% bonus from it. whereas CAs which on average have a better hit rate than autoattack will still continue to gain the same benefit from.-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=OK that's the argument out the way and lets debunk it... I claimed only 23% of my parse was autoattack; lets put some actual numbers onto it.Say its 8k DPS without knight's stance out of a 20k parse which is 40% of my damage with knight's stance this will increase the damage to 10k from autoattack and my parse will raise to 22kWarrior/Brawler : 8k out of 20k parse is autoattack lets add 20% crit bonus to the buffed 20% that's a 10% rise to BOTH CAs and Autoattack; overall parse rises to 22k.... lets increase the same debuffs and proc reduction and it only gives a net gain of 1.4k to a total of 21.4kAH HA... yes finally I am wrong.. ring the church bells call the president lets remove knight's stance and the overpowered AA choice it is!but wait!That's 40% autoattack damage or 8k out of 20k; if the parse is to increase any further than 20k you have to get potency gear, use procs and generally increase your other sources of damage; so say you push your autoattack damage to 9k... but pull out 30k parses.9/30 is only 30% autoattack damage so knights stance will increase overall damage from 30k to 32.25k9/30 for warriors with a 20% crit bonus is a 10% bonus to 33k 70% reduction puts it to 32.1kPush your DPS higher and higher and autoattack falls behind in your % of your parse70% reduction of the crit bonus due to procs and crit debuffs is very subjective. your crit rate will be closer to 85% in most circumstances and the crit debuffs will be on the harder mobs which have a tendancy to decrease your hit rate a lot more as well; so the warrior/brawler numbers will be slightly increasedQuick points:> BOTH bonuses you can use whilst tanking in full tanking gear> Knight's stance works best when you have a large proportional autoattack damage> Knight's stance does not scale when you gain more CB gear> CB is most effective early on with little to no CB gear> Knight's stance only effects autoattack which once you start parsing higher and higher the % gained from knight's stance drops> CB is effective with CAs and Autoattack> Crit debuffs reduce the CB benefits> crit debuffs are only really seen on the harder mobs, mobs which have a reduced autoatatck hit rate.> Knight's stance you only get at 120+ AA and it goes 5 AA, CB benefits from level 1 - however you do not gain sufficient crit chance to be effective untill you reach a point where you may have 120+ AAs as well. However it does not cost AA.Conclusion:Honestly... I think they're pretty equal in giving DPS bonuses whilst tanking (sword and board); *if* warriors/brawlers use a 2hander/Dual weild these bonuses increase but at the obvious lack of defence. Crusaders can likewise use 2handers but loose the knights stance benefits. so on the whole I think the bonuses gained are pretty equal.Soooo... you guys still want to have knight's stance removed; if its removed I think its only fair you get your base melee of 150% reduced to 130% as well; give we both gain the DPS benefits from them WHILST TANKING.

BChizzle

08-26-2010, 07:52 AM

Boli, what you fail to comprehend is as you push CB even higher the advantage becomes less and less and knight stance always stays at the same advantage.

Marcusaval

08-26-2010, 07:59 AM

Yet another unwarranted and ill informed attack on Paladins in the guise of a debate on game mechanics.There is no advantage a Paladin has over other fighters in having Knights stance.It would be much better if the players concerned stuck to there own classes instead of trying to create an issue that does not exist. Crusaders don't go around trying to get nerfs for other fighter classes so it would be greatly appreciated if they would stop trying to to this to us.As a Crusader I have not used a two hander since KOS and those were the bad old days when Guardians and Bezerkers were the only Raid tanks and a Paladin was lucky to get a raid slot. I cant even think of a weapon I would use currently.Quite frankly I hope the developers have the sence to identify these thinly vailed attacks for what they are and ignore them.

Boli32

08-26-2010, 08:03 AM

Read it again Bchizzle... I discussed thatGiven ~ 25% Autoattack damage with knight's stance and I'm guessing around 120% self buffed crit bonus they equal out. Before that 20% crit bonus is better after that knight;s stance is better.Although given Autoattack is inherantly capped where as procs, damage sheilds; timing autoatatcks better etc etc the higher parses will involve less and less Autoattack damage; this favours the higher parses. and knights stance favours the lower end parses as it has a higher % of damage done on the parse.Although with higher end parses you have less CB gear and vice versa; so it actually does equal out in their own ways.

Domingo

08-26-2010, 08:29 AM

Warrior CAs are crap and do very little damage. Their base damage with no potency and crit bonus is much more than 20% behind crusader CAs / spells.

BChizzle

08-26-2010, 08:37 AM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Read it again Bchizzle... I discussed thatGiven ~ 25% Autoattack damage with knight's stance and I'm guessing around 120% self buffed crit bonus they equal out. Before that 20% crit bonus is better after that knight;s stance is better.Although given Autoattack is inherantly capped where as procs, damage sheilds; timing autoatatcks better etc etc the higher parses will involve less and less Autoattack damage; this favours the higher parses. and knights stance favours the lower end parses as it has a higher % of damage done on the parse.Although with higher end parses you have less CB gear and vice versa; so it actually does equal out in their own ways.</blockquote>It doesn't equal out, 220% CB vs 200% CB isnt a 20% difference its more like 10% difference, at 420 vs 400 its a 5% difference all the while knight stance will always be a static 25%.

Boli32

08-26-2010, 08:38 AM

The that is the "issue" and not knight's stance vs crit bonus.As for the "crusader" ones being better it might be best to test that claim; Paladin spells and CAs are actually compartively small; and there are no additional debuffs attached to any Can we have proof of this so we can work on the balance from a new angle.Post up all the brawler/warrior and crusader spells with identical strength no AAs to boost all the same tier and ideally see if we can compare them between each other.Although I think such a discussion warrents a new thread.

Boli32

08-26-2010, 08:45 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Read it again Bchizzle... I discussed thatGiven ~ 25% Autoattack damage with knight's stance and I'm guessing around 120% self buffed crit bonus they equal out. Before that 20% crit bonus is better after that knight;s stance is better.Although given Autoattack is inherantly capped where as procs, damage sheilds; timing autoatatcks better etc etc the higher parses will involve less and less Autoattack damage; this favours the higher parses. and knights stance favours the lower end parses as it has a higher % of damage done on the parse.Although with higher end parses you have less CB gear and vice versa; so it actually does equal out in their own ways.</blockquote>It doesn't equal out, 220% CB vs 200% CB isnt a 20% difference its more like 10% difference, at 420 vs 400 its a 5% difference all the while knight stance will always be a static 25%.</blockquote>You never read my post didn't you?Crit bonus effects ALL the CAs and Autoattack, an autoattack as you incresivly do more damage (as in collect crit bonus gear) does progressivly less and less damage proportionally to the overall DPS so 10% of the total DPS of say (with numbers like 200 crit bonus I woudl wager 70k) parses is 7k additional damage from the crit bonus gain.In comparsition say the autoattack damage is only 20% of the parse, that's (0.2*0.25*70,000) = 4,375 DPS gain; with 30% autoattack damage 5250 gain. In fact in order to match the bonuses you will have to do 40% Autoattack damage which as most crusader parses show we never have that kind of autoattack percentage from the higher level parses.

Boli32

08-26-2010, 10:11 AM

Just so we are on the same page I'll post my caluculations <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><colgroup><col width="99"></col><col width="99"></col><col width="99"></col><col width="99"></col><col width="99"></col></colgroup><tbody><tr ><td >Base Damage</td><td ></td><td ></td><td ></td><td ></td></tr><tr ><td >AA Min</td><td >200</td><td ></td><td ></td><td ></td></tr><tr ><td >AA Max</td><td >1200</td><td ></td><td ></td><td ></td></tr><tr ><td >CA Min</td><td >900</td><td ></td><td ></td><td ></td></tr><tr ><td >CA Max</td><td >1200</td><td ></td><td ></td><td ></td></tr><tr ><td >Knight's Stance Bonus</td><td ></td><td >0.25</td><td ></td><td ></td></tr><tr ><td ></td><td ></td><td ></td><td ></td><td ></td></tr><tr ><td >Autoattack Crit Table</td><td ></td><td ></td><td ></td><td ></td></tr><tr ><td >Crusader</td><td >1.3</td><td >1380</td><td ></td><td ></td></tr><tr ><td >Warrior/brawler</td><td >1.5</td><td >1500</td><td ></td><td ></td></tr><tr ><td ></td><td ></td><td ></td><td ></td><td ></td></tr><tr ><td ></td><td ></td><td >Crusader</td><td >Warrior/Brawler</td><td >% difference</td></tr><tr ><td >Autoattack %</td><td >KS Gain</td><td ></td><td ></td><td ></td></tr><tr ><td >0</td><td >0</td><td >1365</td><td >1575</td><td >0.87</td></tr><tr ><td >5</td><td >1.25</td><td >1383</td><td >1571.25</td><td >0.88</td></tr><tr ><td >10</td><td >2.5</td><td >1401</td><td >1567.5</td><td >0.89</td></tr><tr ><td >15</td><td >3.75</td><td >1419</td><td >1563.75</td><td >0.91</td></tr><tr ><td >20</td><td >5</td><td >1437</td><td >1560</td><td >0.92</td></tr><tr ><td >25</td><td >6.25</td><td >1455</td><td >1556.25</td><td >0.93</td></tr><tr ><td >30</td><td >7.5</td><td >1473</td><td >1552.5</td><td >0.95</td></tr><tr ><td >35</td><td >8.75</td><td >1491</td><td >1548.75</td><td >0.96</td></tr><tr ><td >40</td><td >10</td><td >1509</td><td >1545</td><td >0.98</td></tr><tr ><td >45</td><td >11.25</td><td >1527</td><td >1541.25</td><td >0.99</td></tr><tr ><td >50</td><td >12.5</td><td >1545</td><td >1537.5</td><td >1</td></tr><tr ><td >55</td><td >13.75</td><td >1563</td><td >1533.75</td><td >1.02</td></tr><tr ><td >60</td><td >15</td><td >1581</td><td >1530</td><td >1.03</td></tr><tr ><td >65</td><td >16.25</td><td >1599</td><td >1526.25</td><td >1.05</td></tr><tr ><td >70</td><td >17.5</td><td >1617</td><td >1522.5</td><td >1.06</td></tr><tr ><td >75</td><td >18.75</td><td >1635</td><td >1518.75</td><td >1.08</td></tr><tr ><td >80</td><td >20</td><td >1653</td><td >1515</td><td >1.09</td></tr><tr ><td >85</td><td >21.25</td><td >1671</td><td >1511.25</td><td >1.11</td></tr><tr ><td >90</td><td >22.5</td><td >1689</td><td >1507.5</td><td >1.12</td></tr><tr ><td >95</td><td >23.75</td><td >1707</td><td >1503.75</td><td >1.14</td></tr><tr ><td >100</td><td >25</td><td >1725</td><td >1500</td><td >1.15</td></tr></tbody></table><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><colgroup><col width="99"></col></colgroup><tbody><tr ><td ></td></tr></tbody></table>

Boli32

08-26-2010, 10:17 AM

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><col width="99"></col><col width="99"></col><col width="99"></col><col width="99"></col><col width="125"></col><col width="166"></col><tbody><tr><td>Diminishing crit bonus returns from 150% base</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>Autoattacl</td><td>1.3</td><td>1.5</td><td>%</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>0</td><td>1380</td><td>1500</td><td>8.7</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>1410</td><td>1530</td><td>8.51</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>10</td><td>1440</td><td>1560</td><td>8.33</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>15</td><td>1470</td><td>1590</td><td>8.16</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>20</td><td>1500</td><td>1620</td><td>8</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>25</td><td>1530</td><td>1650</td><td>7.84</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>30</td><td>1560</td><td>1680</td><td>7.69</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>35</td><td>1590</td><td>1710</td><td>7.55</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>40</td><td>1620</td><td>1740</td><td>7.41</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>45</td><td>1650</td><td>1770</td><td>7.27</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>50</td><td>1680</td><td>1800</td><td>7.14</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>55</td><td>1710</td><td>1830</td><td>7.02</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>60</td><td>1740</td><td>1860</td><td>6.9</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>65</td><td>1770</td><td>1890</td><td>6.78</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>70</td><td>1800</td><td>1920</td><td>6.67</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>75</td><td>1830</td><td>1950</td><td>6.56</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>80</td><td>1860</td><td>1980</td><td>6.45</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>85</td><td>1890</td><td>2010</td><td>6.35</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>90</td><td>1920</td><td>2040</td><td>6.25</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>95</td><td>1950</td><td>2070</td><td>6.15</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>100</td><td>1980</td><td>2100</td><td>6.06</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>105</td><td>2010</td><td>2130</td><td>5.97</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>110</td><td>2040</td><td>2160</td><td>5.88</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>115</td><td>2070</td><td>2190</td><td>5.8</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>120</td><td>2100</td><td>2220</td><td>5.71</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>125</td><td>2130</td><td>2250</td><td>5.63</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>130</td><td>2160</td><td>2280</td><td>5.56</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>135</td><td>2190</td><td>2310</td><td>5.48</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>140</td><td>2220</td><td>2340</td><td>5.41</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>145</td><td>2250</td><td>2370</td><td>5.33</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>150</td><td>2280</td><td>2400</td><td>5.26</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>155</td><td>2310</td><td>2430</td><td>5.19</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>160</td><td>2340</td><td>2460</td><td>5.13</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>165</td><td>2370</td><td>2490</td><td>5.06</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>170</td><td>2400</td><td>2520</td><td>5</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>175</td><td>2430</td><td>2550</td><td>4.94</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>180</td><td>2460</td><td>2580</td><td>4.88</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>185</td><td>2490</td><td>2610</td><td>4.82</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>190</td><td>2520</td><td>2640</td><td>4.76</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>195</td><td>2550</td><td>2670</td><td>4.71</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>200</td><td>2580</td><td>2700</td><td>4.65</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr></tbody></table>

Boli32

08-26-2010, 10:27 AM

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><col width="99"></col><col width="99"></col><col width="99"></col><col width="99"></col><col width="125"></col><col width="166"></col><tbody><tr ><td>Diminishing crit bonus returns from 150% base</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>Combat Arts</td><td>1.3</td><td>1.5</td><td> </td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>0</td><td>1365</td><td>1575</td><td>15.38</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>5</td><td>1417.5</td><td>1627.5</td><td>14.81</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>10</td><td>1470</td><td>1680</td><td>14.29</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>15</td><td>1522.5</td><td>1732.5</td><td>13.79</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>20</td><td>1575</td><td>1785</td><td>13.33</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>25</td><td>1627.5</td><td>1837.5</td><td>12.9</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>30</td><td>1680</td><td>1890</td><td>12.5</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>35</td><td>1732.5</td><td>1942.5</td><td>12.12</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>40</td><td>1785</td><td>1995</td><td>11.76</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>45</td><td>1837.5</td><td>2047.5</td><td>11.43</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>50</td><td>1890</td><td>2100</td><td>11.11</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>55</td><td>1942.5</td><td>2152.5</td><td>10.81</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>60</td><td>1995</td><td>2205</td><td>10.53</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>65</td><td>2047.5</td><td>2257.5</td><td>10.26</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>70</td><td>2100</td><td>2310</td><td>10</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>75</td><td>2152.5</td><td>2362.5</td><td>9.76</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>80</td><td>2205</td><td>2415</td><td>9.52</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>85</td><td>2257.5</td><td>2467.5</td><td>9.3</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>90</td><td>2310</td><td>2520</td><td>9.09</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>95</td><td>2362.5</td><td>2572.5</td><td>8.89</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>100</td><td>2415</td><td>2625</td><td>8.7</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>105</td><td>2467.5</td><td>2677.5</td><td>8.51</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>110</td><td>2520</td><td>2730</td><td>8.33</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>115</td><td>2572.5</td><td>2782.5</td><td>8.16</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>120</td><td>2625</td><td>2835</td><td>8</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>125</td><td>2677.5</td><td>2887.5</td><td>7.84</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>130</td><td>2730</td><td>2940</td><td>7.69</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>135</td><td>2782.5</td><td>2992.5</td><td>7.55</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>140</td><td>2835</td><td>3045</td><td>7.41</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>145</td><td>2887.5</td><td>3097.5</td><td>7.27</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>150</td><td>2940</td><td>3150</td><td>7.14</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>155</td><td>2992.5</td><td>3202.5</td><td>7.02</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>160</td><td>3045</td><td>3255</td><td>6.9</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>165</td><td>3097.5</td><td>3307.5</td><td>6.78</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>170</td><td>3150</td><td>3360</td><td>6.67</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>175</td><td>3202.5</td><td>3412.5</td><td>6.56</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>180</td><td>3255</td><td>3465</td><td>6.45</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>185</td><td>3307.5</td><td>3517.5</td><td>6.35</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>190</td><td>3360</td><td>3570</td><td>6.25</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>195</td><td>3412.5</td><td>3622.5</td><td>6.15</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr><tr ><td>200</td><td>3465</td><td>3675</td><td>6.06</td><td > </td><td> </td></tr></tbody></table><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><colgroup><col width="99"></col></colgroup><tbody><tr ><td> </td></tr></tbody></table><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><colgroup><col width="99"></col></colgroup><tbody><tr ><td> </td></tr></tbody></table>

Evette23

08-26-2010, 03:55 PM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>none of you ever consider skill level raid setup or skill of surrounding people.. you just assume cause bard 1 does this and crusader 2 does that.. that somehow thats the way it is for everyone... also at least be at the top of your own class if you're going to nerf cry others.. i've yet to see the cream of the crop players go completely ballistic and call for nerfs.. they always call for balance ie fixing their own classes issues while letting other classes alone... its always the people that can't maximize that whine the hardest about other classes being OP... saddens me......... sigh</blockquote>The game is most balanced in a group of 24 players of complimentary classes and the best gear in the game. Crusaders are doing way too much dps with a shield. That has been proven time and time again in dps parses over the past 2 years. You guys can try to theorize all you want with fabricated static base numbers, but it's nothing but smoke and mirrors meant to be confusing. All you really have to do is look at dps parses. It's the same issue people had with guardians in RoK doing max dps while behind a tower shield.You must not read the forums or talk to other non-crusader fighters if you have never seen fighters with the best gear in the game saying other classes need to be balanced. As far as crusaders asking for other classes to be nerfed, that would be as dumb as assassins saying, "nerf rangers."

Shareana

08-26-2010, 04:46 PM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=445320&post_id=5402627" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=44532...post_id=5402627</a> Vulgarity and insults are not necessary here.

Wasuna

08-26-2010, 05:45 PM

Why would Crusaders ask for others to be nerfed? You are the Kings on the last two expansions. Your fighter sub-class can do so much now that it has completely broken the game.So, I fail to see your logic about Crusaders asking for a nerf of others....As for rooling a Crusader... no thanks. I don't play Disney games or games that have cheat codes and that is what a Crusader is now days in EQ2.

Wasuna

08-26-2010, 05:48 PM

Thanks for all the numbers Boli. I respect the fact that you spent so muct time working it up. To bad it doesn't represent anything close to the actual parses that have been provided and reviewed.Crusaders can seriously out DPS Guardians in equal gear, buffs, ability quality ... etc. This applies to single target and multiple target. Of course the Crusaders start really running away on the AoE fights but you still own the ST fights also.

Yimway

08-26-2010, 06:10 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for all the numbers Boli. I respect the fact that you spent so muct time working it up. To bad it doesn't represent anything close to the actual parses that have been provided and reviewed.</blockquote>Auto attack comparison on its own isn't representative of net difference.It is undeniable the damage potential / survivability for a crusader on KS and going max dps is worlds above any other fighter working to max dps potential. So long as crusaders can max damage potential without sacraficing uncontested block, things are severely out of whack. It's just as broken as guards were in RoK, and it needs nerfing for the same reason guards did.

Evette23

08-26-2010, 06:52 PM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you think they are so OP then roll 1 and shut your facehole....</blockquote>I did roll one, but it is too boring and easy to play seriously. I'd rather continue asking SOE to balance crusaders with the rest of the tanks. And, how bout you do the forums a favor and shut the disgusting sausage hole in your sig lulz.

Edminime

08-26-2010, 06:57 PM

I think SOE sould get rid of KS all together and give us the 20% cb, that is why we lose the cb in the first place.

Morgue

08-26-2010, 07:12 PM

<cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you think they are so OP then roll 1 and shut your facehole....</blockquote>I did roll one, but it is too boring and easy to play seriously. I'd rather continue asking SOE to balance crusaders with the rest of the tanks. And, how bout you do the forums a favor and shut the disgusting sausage hole in your sig lulz.</blockquote>This line of response does the debate no good, but I wil grant you we all find different classes boring. In my case, guardians are boring; however, my zerker has always been a blast to play. My paladin is a different from my zerker as he can be, so I do not expect the same active style of play. If my paladin was more simular to my zerker, I think the different fighter would be useless, and we all might as well be playing WoW. The whole Knight's stance vs Crit bonus is a ridiculous arguement. My Zerker destories dps parses and soon it will be even greater. The paladin even with equal gear cannot hold a candle as far a dps, so I find other ways to do the same job. In that same arguement since the ill advised crit nerf has happen, my paladin's survival is severly lower then my zerker. I do not see a reason why a Guardian believe they should parse higher then an SK, nor do I see a reason why nerfs are always needed to 'fix' an opinion driven ideal. Considering paladins and sks have lower overall survival now, paladins more so, should they not have dps as well, or has class envy gotten to the point with the once 'uber tanks,' Guardians, that requires all other clases to be stripped of any effectiveness?Of course its just my opinions, I do not expect any class needs nerfing, cept INQ cuz i hate you all (joke).

Yimway

08-26-2010, 07:12 PM

<cite>Edminime wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think SOE sould get rid of KS all together and give us the 20% cb, that is why we lose the cb in the first place.</blockquote>I think they should just convert it to a 2hand only bonus, making you more unique, and with the upcomming changes do even more dps, but have to sacrafice something to do it (like everyone else).

noogabooga

08-26-2010, 07:25 PM

This really is an unwarranted call for nerf, but at least offer a fairer solution then what have been proposed. I would settle for removing KS and give +20CB instead. Who cares for uniqueness anymore when people are crying for balance???

Edminime

08-26-2010, 07:26 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Edminime wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think SOE sould get rid of KS all together and give us the 20% cb, that is why we lose the cb in the first place.</blockquote>I think they should just convert it to a 2hand only bonus, making you more unique, and with the upcomming changes do even more dps, but have to sacrafice something to do it (like everyone else).</blockquote>I you would and we both know the only good 2h at this lvl is only avalable to 2% of the player base that would us it lol. Nice try and hows your op block doing lol.

Boli32

08-26-2010, 07:33 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for all the numbers Boli. I respect the fact that you spent so muct time working it up. To bad it doesn't represent anything close to the actual parses that have been provided and reviewed.</blockquote>Auto attack comparison on its own isn't representative of net difference.It is undeniable the damage potential / survivability for a crusader on KS and going max dps is worlds above any other fighter working to max dps potential. So long as crusaders can max damage potential without sacraficing uncontested block, things are severely out of whack. It's just as broken as guards were in RoK, and it needs nerfing for the same reason guards did.</blockquote>*sigh*... no-one actually read it... knight's stance allows us to go "max DPS" as much as your 20 crit bonus allows you to go max DPS ALL THE TIME... reguardless of the weapons used.Think I'm wrong... scroll up and look. you gain as much DPS increase without sacrificing your uncontested avoidance also; only diffreence is use other weaposn and you gain MORE... although at some sacrifice.. whereas if we loose a shield we loose our bonus.The debate isn't knight's stance vs crit bonus... its elsewhere as I have PROVED.

Morgue

08-26-2010, 07:40 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for all the numbers Boli. I respect the fact that you spent so muct time working it up. To bad it doesn't represent anything close to the actual parses that have been provided and reviewed.</blockquote>Auto attack comparison on its own isn't representative of net difference.It is undeniable the damage potential / survivability for a crusader on KS and going max dps is worlds above any other fighter working to max dps potential. So long as crusaders can max damage potential without sacraficing uncontested block, things are severely out of whack. It's just as broken as guards were in RoK, and it needs nerfing for the same reason guards did.</blockquote>*sigh*... no-one actually read it... knight's stance allows us to go "max DPS" as much as your 20 crit bonus allows you to go max DPS ALL THE TIME... reguardless of the weapons used.Think I'm wrong... scroll up and look. you gain as much DPS increase without sacrificing your uncontested avoidance also; only diffreence is use other weaposn and you gain MORE... although at some sacrifice.. whereas if we loose a shield we loose our bonus.The debate isn't knight's stance vs crit bonus... its elsewhere as I have PROVED.</blockquote>same as with the crit nerf Boli, apples vs oranges. The improper comparison is being made to validate a nerf. I wonder if it simply does not break down to not learning how to play ones class the way in which it was designed, but wanting the class to be played the way one imagined it to be.

Boli32

08-26-2010, 07:48 PM

<cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for all the numbers Boli. I respect the fact that you spent so muct time working it up. To bad it doesn't represent anything close to the actual parses that have been provided and reviewed.</blockquote>Auto attack comparison on its own isn't representative of net difference.It is undeniable the damage potential / survivability for a crusader on KS and going max dps is worlds above any other fighter working to max dps potential. So long as crusaders can max damage potential without sacraficing uncontested block, things are severely out of whack. It's just as broken as guards were in RoK, and it needs nerfing for the same reason guards did.</blockquote>*sigh*... no-one actually read it... knight's stance allows us to go "max DPS" as much as your 20 crit bonus allows you to go max DPS ALL THE TIME... reguardless of the weapons used.Think I'm wrong... scroll up and look. you gain as much DPS increase without sacrificing your uncontested avoidance also; only diffreence is use other weaposn and you gain MORE... although at some sacrifice.. whereas if we loose a shield we loose our bonus.The debate isn't knight's stance vs crit bonus... its elsewhere as I have PROVED.</blockquote>same as with the crit nerf Boli, apples vs oranges. The improper comparison is being made to validate a nerf. I wonder if it simply does not break down to not learning how to play ones class the way in which it was designed, but wanting the class to be played the way one imagined it to be.</blockquote>Exactly... erm... are apples better or are oranges? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Jeal

08-26-2010, 08:02 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why would Crusaders ask for others to be nerfed? You are the Kings on the last two expansions. Your fighter sub-class can do so much now that it has completely broken the game.So, I fail to see your logic about Crusaders asking for a nerf of others....As for rooling a Crusader... no thanks. I don't play Disney games or games that have cheat codes and that is what a Crusader is now days in EQ2.</blockquote>i'd roll a guard zerker or brawler and destroy everyone regardless... you guys are delusional.and before you say well why don't you?... i don't have to, my guild leader's alt has already proven that you guys know jack about what you need for your class. Used him on our ww2nd kill of xyz and hes almost as survivable if not more so than me in inferior gear. pretty sad you guys consider NOTHING outside of what your tunnel vision nerf bat crying eyes see.

BChizzle

08-26-2010, 08:03 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for all the numbers Boli. I respect the fact that you spent so muct time working it up. To bad it doesn't represent anything close to the actual parses that have been provided and reviewed.</blockquote>Auto attack comparison on its own isn't representative of net difference.It is undeniable the damage potential / survivability for a crusader on KS and going max dps is worlds above any other fighter working to max dps potential. So long as crusaders can max damage potential without sacraficing uncontested block, things are severely out of whack. It's just as broken as guards were in RoK, and it needs nerfing for the same reason guards did.</blockquote>*sigh*... no-one actually read it... knight's stance allows us to go "max DPS" as much as your 20 crit bonus allows you to go max DPS ALL THE TIME... reguardless of the weapons used.Think I'm wrong... scroll up and look. you gain as much DPS increase without sacrificing your uncontested avoidance also; only diffreence is use other weaposn and you gain MORE... although at some sacrifice.. whereas if we loose a shield we loose our bonus.The debate isn't knight's stance vs crit bonus... its elsewhere as I have PROVED.</blockquote>The debate is crit bonus, since when crusaders asked for KS to be usable when they are using a 2 hander wand were told "NO THATS OP" they fell back on the usual rhetoric of "well you guys get 20% more crit bonus" as a defense when anyone with any sense knows that KS is superior to crit bonus.

BChizzle

08-26-2010, 08:07 PM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why would Crusaders ask for others to be nerfed? You are the Kings on the last two expansions. Your fighter sub-class can do so much now that it has completely broken the game.So, I fail to see your logic about Crusaders asking for a nerf of others....As for rooling a Crusader... no thanks. I don't play Disney games or games that have cheat codes and that is what a Crusader is now days in EQ2.</blockquote>i'd roll a guard zerker or brawler and destroy everyone regardless... you guys are delusional.and before you say well why don't you?... i don't have to, my guild leader's alt has already proven that you guys know jack about what you need for your class. Used him on our ww2nd kill of xyz and hes almost as survivable if not more so than me in inferior gear. pretty sad you guys consider NOTHING outside of what your tunnel vision nerf bat crying eyes see.</blockquote>Dude you are like what, umm the 4247625th place crusader in the world after all the good ones left? Grats on being in a good guild but it is your guild that makes you look good not the other way around, proof of that is easy to see, just look at the fact that you were no where even close to a top crusader on AB when you were there. Stop trying to act all high and mighty, you play an easymode class grats.

Aull

08-26-2010, 08:12 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Samoux@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>same as with the crit nerf Boli, apples vs oranges. The improper comparison is being made to validate a nerf. I wonder if it simply does not break down to not learning how to play ones class the way in which it was designed, but wanting the class to be played the way one imagined it to be.</blockquote>Exactly... erm... are apples better or are oranges? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Apples are better if constipation is a problem. Oranges are better for thwarting off colds. Both taste great.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" />

Boli32

08-26-2010, 08:12 PM

I have never asked for knight's stance to be changed or the 20% crit bonus gain from melee attacks given for FREE to warrioes and brawlers.I have always thought of them as a balance... and I thoguth I have proved it... so... what's the problem?If there are twohanders worth using in the autoattack changes which is greater damage than 1hander +25% bonus then you'll see crusdaders using a 2hander for "max DPS" only difference is unlike warriors and brawlers we will not gain the melee crit bonus which doesn't really matter for me.I see a balance in these skills benefits and drawbacks for each and I hope all our skills are balanced in a similar (but different) way.

BChizzle

08-26-2010, 08:20 PM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have never asked for knight's stance to be changed or the 20% crit bonus gain from melee attacks given for FREE to warrioes and brawlers.I have always thought of them as a balance... and I thoguth I have proved it... so... what's the problem?If there are twohanders worth using in the autoattack changes which is greater damage than 1hander +25% bonus then you'll see crusdaders using a 2hander for "max DPS" only difference is unlike warriors and brawlers we will not gain the melee crit bonus which doesn't really matter for me.I see a balance in these skills benefits and drawbacks for each and I hope all our skills are balanced in a similar (but different) way.</blockquote>Grats on being good at making useless charts and completely missing the point. KS is not a balance against the .2 CB difference, KS is a balance to not being able to duel wield. The fact that your spells and CA's do so much damage is the balance to the .2 crit bonus.

arksun

08-26-2010, 08:23 PM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why would Crusaders ask for others to be nerfed? You are the Kings on the last two expansions. Your fighter sub-class can do so much now that it has completely broken the game.So, I fail to see your logic about Crusaders asking for a nerf of others....As for rooling a Crusader... no thanks. I don't play Disney games or games that have cheat codes and that is what a Crusader is now days in EQ2.</blockquote>i'd roll a guard zerker or brawler and destroy everyone regardless... you guys are delusional.and before you say well why don't you?... i don't have to, my guild leader's alt has already proven that you guys know jack about what you need for your class. Used him on our ww2nd kill of xyz and hes almost as survivable if not more so than me in inferior gear. pretty sad you guys consider NOTHING outside of what your tunnel vision nerf bat crying eyes see.</blockquote>So slippery has a guard in full hulking, stonewill items, arc shield, etc... and he can hit tos and block before an AE on any one of the xyz's and this proves what?In the sport of competition I would love to take your quote "i'd roll a guard zerker or brawler and destroy everyone regardless... you guys are delusional." and challenge it.

Evette23

08-26-2010, 08:42 PM

It's hilarious when people think they have some kind of skill because they play an ez-mode class and their gear and buffs from other players make their characters powerful. It's more impressive to see a guardian in legendary gear holding a few encounters against heavy aoe dps than a lolcrusader in end-game gear with a dirge room pulling or soloing SoH.

Jeal

08-26-2010, 09:05 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why would Crusaders ask for others to be nerfed? You are the Kings on the last two expansions. Your fighter sub-class can do so much now that it has completely broken the game.So, I fail to see your logic about Crusaders asking for a nerf of others....As for rooling a Crusader... no thanks. I don't play Disney games or games that have cheat codes and that is what a Crusader is now days in EQ2.</blockquote>i'd roll a guard zerker or brawler and destroy everyone regardless... you guys are delusional.and before you say well why don't you?... i don't have to, my guild leader's alt has already proven that you guys know jack about what you need for your class. Used him on our ww2nd kill of xyz and hes almost as survivable if not more so than me in inferior gear. pretty sad you guys consider NOTHING outside of what your tunnel vision nerf bat crying eyes see.</blockquote>Dude you are like what, umm the 4247625th place crusader in the world after all the good ones left? Grats on being in a good guild but it is your guild that makes you look good not the other way around, proof of that is easy to see, just look at the fact that you were no where even close to a top crusader on AB when you were there. Stop trying to act all high and mighty, you play an easymode class grats.</blockquote>and you've completely lost touch with realityyou can ask anyone in my guild if i'm good or if i'm a leech if you think i'm such a scrub that got lucky to be in a top 3 ww guild.. what a joke

BChizzle

08-26-2010, 09:18 PM

Jeal

08-26-2010, 09:21 PM

keep talking.. you haven't backed jack up this xpac

BChizzle

08-26-2010, 09:32 PM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>keep talking.. you haven't backed jack up this xpac</blockquote>yawn yawn yawn, sad part is you care about being the best yet fall short

Jeal

08-26-2010, 09:34 PM

whats sad is you're de-railing this thread.. .. please keep going sir <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Bruener

08-26-2010, 09:37 PM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why would Crusaders ask for others to be nerfed? You are the Kings on the last two expansions. Your fighter sub-class can do so much now that it has completely broken the game.So, I fail to see your logic about Crusaders asking for a nerf of others....As for rooling a Crusader... no thanks. I don't play Disney games or games that have cheat codes and that is what a Crusader is now days in EQ2.</blockquote>i'd roll a guard zerker or brawler and destroy everyone regardless... you guys are delusional.and before you say well why don't you?... i don't have to, my guild leader's alt has already proven that you guys know jack about what you need for your class. Used him on our ww2nd kill of xyz and hes almost as survivable if not more so than me in inferior gear. pretty sad you guys consider NOTHING outside of what your tunnel vision nerf bat crying eyes see.</blockquote>Dude you are like what, umm the 4247625th place crusader in the world after all the good ones left? Grats on being in a good guild but it is your guild that makes you look good not the other way around, proof of that is easy to see, just look at the fact that you were no where even close to a top crusader on AB when you were there. Stop trying to act all high and mighty, you play an easymode class grats.</blockquote>and you've completely lost touch with realityyou can ask anyone in my guild if i'm good or if i'm a leech if you think i'm such a scrub that got lucky to be in a top 3 ww guild.. what a joke</blockquote>Its the same old story with BC. He talks a bunch of smack, swears that all other tanks Brawlers especially worship the ground he walks on, cries and cries about the abilities of other tanks, and than backs up all his arguments with "well yeah, you suck" statements.Meanwhile as Blanka talks a bunch of crap out his rear....Nice numbers Boli and for anybody that can't see the advantage of crit bonus you seriously need to reread some of that. The major gain of the 20% crit bonus is not just to increasing every CA and auto attack...its the increase it adds to all player procs. Procs like VC that are totally dominating parses.Don't worry though Blanka, you are getting your wish. Not only can Brawlers easily reach the survivability of Plate tanks now...they also have tons of tools on short recast that make them beasts AND they get a nice beef to DPS once the changes come for DW'ing. You know being a class that DW's all the time all your AE auto attack will be proc'ing off of BOTH weapons now AND you will be able to Flurry off of BOTH weapons as well. Velious....xpac of the leather Tanks.

BChizzle

08-26-2010, 09:54 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why would Crusaders ask for others to be nerfed? You are the Kings on the last two expansions. Your fighter sub-class can do so much now that it has completely broken the game.So, I fail to see your logic about Crusaders asking for a nerf of others....As for rooling a Crusader... no thanks. I don't play Disney games or games that have cheat codes and that is what a Crusader is now days in EQ2.</blockquote>i'd roll a guard zerker or brawler and destroy everyone regardless... you guys are delusional.and before you say well why don't you?... i don't have to, my guild leader's alt has already proven that you guys know jack about what you need for your class. Used him on our ww2nd kill of xyz and hes almost as survivable if not more so than me in inferior gear. pretty sad you guys consider NOTHING outside of what your tunnel vision nerf bat crying eyes see.</blockquote>Dude you are like what, umm the 4247625th place crusader in the world after all the good ones left? Grats on being in a good guild but it is your guild that makes you look good not the other way around, proof of that is easy to see, just look at the fact that you were no where even close to a top crusader on AB when you were there. Stop trying to act all high and mighty, you play an easymode class grats.</blockquote>and you've completely lost touch with realityyou can ask anyone in my guild if i'm good or if i'm a leech if you think i'm such a scrub that got lucky to be in a top 3 ww guild.. what a joke</blockquote>Its the same old story with BC. He talks a bunch of smack, swears that all other tanks Brawlers especially worship the ground he walks on, cries and cries about the abilities of other tanks, and than backs up all his arguments with "well yeah, you suck" statements.Meanwhile as Blanka talks a bunch of crap out his rear....Nice numbers Boli and for anybody that can't see the advantage of crit bonus you seriously need to reread some of that. The major gain of the 20% crit bonus is not just to increasing every CA and auto attack...its the increase it adds to all player procs. Procs like VC that are totally dominating parses.Don't worry though Blanka, you are getting your wish. Not only can Brawlers easily reach the survivability of Plate tanks now...they also have tons of tools on short recast that make them beasts AND they get a nice beef to DPS once the changes come for DW'ing. You know being a class that DW's all the time all your AE auto attack will be proc'ing off of BOTH weapons now AND you will be able to Flurry off of BOTH weapons as well. Velious....xpac of the leather Tanks.</blockquote>Yes that 10% auto attack I have being doubled is going to be such a huge deal. Oh wait its getting buffed to 30% omg OP even though all it does is end up equal to the 60% you get from your 1 hander.

Stonestrong

08-26-2010, 10:01 PM

Bruener

08-26-2010, 11:24 PM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its the same old story with BC. He talks a bunch of smack, swears that all other tanks Brawlers especially worship the ground he walks on, cries and cries about the abilities of other tanks, and than backs up all his arguments with "well yeah, you suck" statements.Meanwhile as Blanka talks a bunch of crap out his rear....Nice numbers Boli and for anybody that can't see the advantage of crit bonus you seriously need to reread some of that. The major gain of the 20% crit bonus is not just to increasing every CA and auto attack...its the increase it adds to all player procs. Procs like VC that are totally dominating parses.Don't worry though Blanka, you are getting your wish. Not only can Brawlers easily reach the survivability of Plate tanks now...they also have tons of tools on short recast that make them beasts AND they get a nice beef to DPS once the changes come for DW'ing. You know being a class that DW's all the time all your AE auto attack will be proc'ing off of BOTH weapons now AND you will be able to Flurry off of BOTH weapons as well. Velious....xpac of the leather Tanks.</blockquote>Yes that 10% auto attack I have being doubled is going to be such a huge deal. Oh wait its getting buffed to 30% omg OP even though all it does is end up equal to the 60% you get from your 1 hander.</blockquote>Oh I forgot to add that the random junky posts of nonsense that nobody understands too...yeah think its all covered now.

BChizzle

08-27-2010, 12:56 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its the same old story with BC. He talks a bunch of smack, swears that all other tanks Brawlers especially worship the ground he walks on, cries and cries about the abilities of other tanks, and than backs up all his arguments with "well yeah, you suck" statements.Meanwhile as Blanka talks a bunch of crap out his rear....Nice numbers Boli and for anybody that can't see the advantage of crit bonus you seriously need to reread some of that. The major gain of the 20% crit bonus is not just to increasing every CA and auto attack...its the increase it adds to all player procs. Procs like VC that are totally dominating parses.Don't worry though Blanka, you are getting your wish. Not only can Brawlers easily reach the survivability of Plate tanks now...they also have tons of tools on short recast that make them beasts AND they get a nice beef to DPS once the changes come for DW'ing. You know being a class that DW's all the time all your AE auto attack will be proc'ing off of BOTH weapons now AND you will be able to Flurry off of BOTH weapons as well. Velious....xpac of the leather Tanks.</blockquote>Yes that 10% auto attack I have being doubled is going to be such a huge deal. Oh wait its getting buffed to 30% omg OP even though all it does is end up equal to the 60% you get from your 1 hander.</blockquote>Oh I forgot to add that the random junky posts of nonsense that nobody understands too...yeah think its all covered now.</blockquote>Fact is clearly the people that run this game agree with me that brawlers needed some buffing and also agree with my opinion crusaders don't need buffing. So your opinion really means nothing but that has already been pointed out enough times anyways.

Jeal

08-27-2010, 04:32 AM

we're not asking for buffing mr. loudnoxious we're asking for you crybabies to stop crying over our classes and stick to your own. oh by the way my class's entire defensive philosophy got ripped to shreds... yet you don't hear me saying that guards stoneskins need to somehow be limited in their effectiveness to bring them down to level do you..no, i'd just like my abilities to be relevant while not whining all over the boards about other classes

Evette23

08-27-2010, 04:43 AM

<cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>I bet you would rather to continue to cry to SOE so that way you at least have an excuse for being so terrible. Wahhh it's not my fault I can't tank on my warrior/brawler. It's Sony's fault cause Crusaders are OP wahhhhhh. Grow up scrub.</blockquote>I excell at EQ2 no matter what class I'm playing. It's not hard. You obviously think paladin is a balanced and well-rounded class, therefore you are an idiot.Until crusader dps/defense is re-balanced, brawlers will continue to be sub-par as usual, and there is absolutely zero reason to play a guardian unless you are just too lazy to betray and get epic/masters. Hence why there are a billion shadowknights and like 2 guardians that play EQ2.

Evette23

08-27-2010, 04:47 AM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>we're asking for you crybabies to stop crying over our classes and stick to your own</blockquote>Denied. Move on with life.Most of us have multiple tanks anyway.

Jeal

08-27-2010, 05:04 AM

<cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite><blockquote>I bet you would rather to continue to cry to SOE so that way you at least have an excuse for being so terrible. Wahhh it's not my fault I can't tank on my warrior/brawler. It's Sony's fault cause Crusaders are OP wahhhhhh. Grow up scrub.</blockquote>I excell at EQ2 no matter what class I'm playing. It's not hard. You obviously think paladin is a balanced and well-rounded class, therefore you are an idiot.Until crusader dps/defense is re-balanced, brawlers will continue to be sub-par as usual, and there is absolutely zero reason to play a guardian unless you are just too lazy to betray and get epic/masters. Hence why there are a billion shadowknights and like 2 guardians that play EQ2.</blockquote>denied move on with life.guards have more defense than any other tanks and still do.. its not our fault you haven't fought mobs that make you use it

Evette23

08-27-2010, 05:24 AM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>guards have more defense than any other tanks and still do.. its not our fault you haven't fought mobs that make you use it</blockquote>Guards only have more defense than any other tank when fighting a hard hitting single target mob. And even then, only slightly so, and even then only if they don't have to duel wield to hold aggro. I would trade that highly situational sliver of a defensive advantage any day, which is why I'm not dumb enough to continue to play a guardian.

Jeal

08-27-2010, 05:51 AM

<cite>Evette23 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>guards have more defense than any other tanks and still do.. its not our fault you haven't fought mobs that make you use it</blockquote>Guards only have more defense than any other tank when fighting a hard hitting single target mob. And even then, only slightly so, and even then only if they don't have to duel wield to hold aggro. I would trade that highly situational sliver of a defensive advantage any day, which is why I'm not dumb enough to continue to play a guardian.</blockquote>wrong... as i've stated several times our guild leaders alt guard with legendary charms and hand me down tank gear less than 200 aas holds agg off of the highest dps guild in the game.. nice tryjust cause mobs don't test your defensive abilities doesn't mean it doesn't count... thats an idiotic thought process that needs to die*goes back to killing mobs you'll never see

BChizzle

08-27-2010, 07:57 AM

<cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>we're not asking for buffing mr. loudnoxious we're asking for you crybabies to stop crying over our classes and stick to your own. oh by the way my class's entire defensive philosophy got ripped to shreds... yet you don't hear me saying that guards stoneskins need to somehow be limited in their effectiveness to bring them down to level do you..no, i'd just like my abilities to be relevant while not whining all over the boards about other classes</blockquote>Funny I don't recall asking for your class to be nerfed, my stance is that KS shouldn't be allowed when you go with a 2 hander which would be an increase to your already too high dps, nothing more.

Boli32

08-27-2010, 08:55 AM

<cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>we're not asking for buffing mr. loudnoxious we're asking for you crybabies to stop crying over our classes and stick to your own. oh by the way my class's entire defensive philosophy got ripped to shreds... yet you don't hear me saying that guards stoneskins need to somehow be limited in their effectiveness to bring them down to level do you..no, i'd just like my abilities to be relevant while not whining all over the boards about other classes</blockquote>Funny I don't recall asking for your class to be nerfed, my stance is that KS shouldn't be allowed when you go with a 2 hander which would be an increase to your already too high dps, nothing more.</blockquote>The first person to raid said issue was a guardian (Atan)... in fact it has been raised several times but on the whole most crusaders have discounted it. and neither are crusaders looking to nerf ... we have always wanted BALANCE; "the same but different"This thread is (was) about knight's stance and many people's oppions that is is "too overpowered"; except I still fail to understand why people are still going on about it the thread title is "crit bonus vs knight's stance" look and examine my data and you can see they do average each other out. In many cases the additional crit bonus supirior in others knight's stance is.If the issue is about Crusader Spell/CAs doing "vastly" more damage than other classes that warrents its own thread where we can collect data about alll the spells/CAs available to all the tank classes on zero buffs/AA same strength and see exactly if/where the discrepancies are.tbh I know *exactly* where the discrepancies are; and none of them have anythign to do with a warrior/brawler crit bonus or knight's stance; but I would rather dicuss them in a relavent thread than continually trying to derail this thread which no longer resembers its subject header.

Soul_Dreamer

08-27-2010, 10:55 AM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>we're not asking for buffing mr. loudnoxious we're asking for you crybabies to stop crying over our classes and stick to your own. oh by the way my class's entire defensive philosophy got ripped to shreds... yet you don't hear me saying that guards stoneskins need to somehow be limited in their effectiveness to bring them down to level do you..no, i'd just like my abilities to be relevant while not whining all over the boards about other classes</blockquote>Funny I don't recall asking for your class to be nerfed, my stance is that KS shouldn't be allowed when you go with a 2 hander which would be an increase to your already too high dps, nothing more.</blockquote>The first person to raid said issue was a guardian (Atan)... in fact it has been raised several times but on the whole most crusaders have discounted it. and neither are crusaders looking to nerf ... we have always wanted BALANCE; "the same but different"This thread is (was) about knight's stance and many people's oppions that is is "too overpowered"; except I still fail to understand why people are still going on about it the thread title is "crit bonus vs knight's stance" look and examine my data and you can see they do average each other out. In many cases the additional crit bonus supirior in others knight's stance is.If the issue is about Crusader Spell/CAs doing "vastly" more damage than other classes that warrents its own thread where we can collect data about alll the spells/CAs available to all the tank classes on zero buffs/AA same strength and see exactly if/where the discrepancies are.tbh I know *exactly* where the discrepancies are; and none of them have anythign to do with a warrior/brawler crit bonus or knight's stance; but I would rather dicuss them in a relavent thread than continually trying to derail this thread which no longer resembers its subject header.</blockquote>My ONLY problem with it is you can keep your uncontested avoidance while doing almost your max DPS, I don't even understand how you can argue that this is Balanced, when no other class can do this.Even duel weilding my Guardian can't come close to the DPS of our SK who is using sword/board... We're killing HM mobs and working on UF, so while we're not at the top end of raiding we're not at the bottom either. My parses are anywhere between 15k and 25k on average and the SK will ALWAYS be at least 33% higher. The higher Crit bonus doesn't even seem to make much of a difference, if anything I see it as a way to keep Warriors within range of Crusaders.IF when 2 handers are improved KS is changed to something to benefit 2 handers and DPS/Hate is balanced across the tank classes then I have no issue. IF it's not though then both warriors and Brawlers need something to enable them to keep some uncontested avoidance while DPSing. EG.Crusader - KS - 2 Handers gain 10% avoidance.Warrior - Some AA somewhere to give 10% avoidance to the offhand weapon when duel weilding.Brawler - Change their Offensive and mid stances to keep at least 10% avoidance.I want my class balanced and unfortunately I see this ability as throwing balance out, again, I don't mind that it increases DPS, but it needs to do it in such a way that you can't keep your uncontested avoidance. I'm not saying you can keep FULL defense while doing max DPS, I'm saying you keep your UNCONTESTED AVOIDANCE when maxxing DPS.Even if by some miracle all tank classes where balanced to do similar max DPS, with this ability in game it would still mean that Crusaders while doing the same DPS as everyone else duel weilding would be doing it with 30% avoidance!

Boli32

08-27-2010, 11:05 AM

<cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>we're not asking for buffing mr. loudnoxious we're asking for you crybabies to stop crying over our classes and stick to your own. oh by the way my class's entire defensive philosophy got ripped to shreds... yet you don't hear me saying that guards stoneskins need to somehow be limited in their effectiveness to bring them down to level do you..no, i'd just like my abilities to be relevant while not whining all over the boards about other classes</blockquote>Funny I don't recall asking for your class to be nerfed, my stance is that KS shouldn't be allowed when you go with a 2 hander which would be an increase to your already too high dps, nothing more.</blockquote>The first person to raid said issue was a guardian (Atan)... in fact it has been raised several times but on the whole most crusaders have discounted it. and neither are crusaders looking to nerf ... we have always wanted BALANCE; "the same but different"This thread is (was) about knight's stance and many people's oppions that is is "too overpowered"; except I still fail to understand why people are still going on about it the thread title is "crit bonus vs knight's stance" look and examine my data and you can see they do average each other out. In many cases the additional crit bonus supirior in others knight's stance is.If the issue is about Crusader Spell/CAs doing "vastly" more damage than other classes that warrents its own thread where we can collect data about alll the spells/CAs available to all the tank classes on zero buffs/AA same strength and see exactly if/where the discrepancies are.tbh I know *exactly* where the discrepancies are; and none of them have anythign to do with a warrior/brawler crit bonus or knight's stance; but I would rather dicuss them in a relavent thread than continually trying to derail this thread which no longer resembers its subject header.</blockquote>My ONLY problem with it is you can keep your uncontested avoidance while doing almost your max DPS, I don't even understand how you can argue that this is Balanced, when no other class can do this.Even duel weilding my Guardian can't come close to the DPS of our SK who is using sword/board... We're killing HM mobs and working on UF, so while we're not at the top end of raiding we're not at the bottom either. My parses are anywhere between 15k and 25k on average and the SK will ALWAYS be at least 33% higher. The higher Crit bonus doesn't even seem to make much of a difference, if anything I see it as a way to keep Warriors within range of Crusaders.IF when 2 handers are improved KS is changed to something to benefit 2 handers and DPS/Hate is balanced across the tank classes then I have no issue. IF it's not though then both warriors and Brawlers need something to enable them to keep some uncontested avoidance while DPSing. EG.Crusader - KS - 2 Handers gain 10% avoidance.Warrior - Some AA somewhere to give 10% avoidance to the offhand weapon when duel weilding.Brawler - Change their Offensive and mid stances to keep at least 10% avoidance.I want my class balanced and unfortunately I see this ability as throwing balance out, again, I don't mind that it increases DPS, but it needs to do it in such a way that you can't keep your uncontested avoidance. I'm not saying you can keep FULL defense while doing max DPS, I'm saying you keep your UNCONTESTED AVOIDANCE when maxxing DPS.Even if by some miracle all tank classes where balanced to do similar max DPS, with this ability in game it would still mean that Crusaders while doing the same DPS as everyone else duel weilding would be doing it with 30% avoidance!</blockquote>Melee Crit bonus of 150% gives similar tho different bonuses to a crusader melee/spell crit bonus of 130%; sure you can also DW and use a 2hander but if you compare KS to your inate crit bonus you BOTH have the option to DPS whilst using a sword+board.Once 2handers are fixed you will see crusader us them to maintain MAX DPS... however knight's stance will not be effective and warriors/brawlers using DW/2handers will be able to maintain their max dps IN ADDITION to the melee crit bonus inatly given to the class.How is that so hard to understand... all fighter classes have either knight's stance or melee crit bonus. the real issue is not in either of them its the fact that 2handers are very poorly itemised and there are only 2 decent ones which are worth gtting which upgrade a standard 1hander with knight's stance bonusa.. and both of those are from 4 rune theer.Once itemisation is fixed... knight's stance will *not* matter as they will not be able to use a shiled whilst using a 2hander. istead crusader gain a benefit to autoatatck only using a shield and crusaders/brawlers get a melee cerit bonus which effects ALL aspects of their DPS, CAs and Autoattack.As for the "Crusader DPS issue" more a discussion for another thread; (although it is more of a guardian issue).

Soul_Dreamer

08-27-2010, 11:38 AM

<cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeal@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>we're not asking for buffing mr. loudnoxious we're asking for you crybabies to stop crying over our classes and stick to your own. oh by the way my class's entire defensive philosophy got ripped to shreds... yet you don't hear me saying that guards stoneskins need to somehow be limited in their effectiveness to bring them down to level do you..no, i'd just like my abilities to be relevant while not whining all over the boards about other classes</blockquote>Funny I don't recall asking for your class to be nerfed, my stance is that KS shouldn't be allowed when you go with a 2 hander which would be an increase to your already too high dps, nothing more.</blockquote>The first person to raid said issue was a guardian (Atan)... in fact it has been raised several times but on the whole most crusaders have discounted it. and neither are crusaders looking to nerf ... we have always wanted BALANCE; "the same but different"This thread is (was) about knight's stance and many people's oppions that is is "too overpowered"; except I still fail to understand why people are still going on about it the thread title is "crit bonus vs knight's stance" look and examine my data and you can see they do average each other out. In many cases the additional crit bonus supirior in others knight's stance is.If the issue is about Crusader Spell/CAs doing "vastly" more damage than other classes that warrents its own thread where we can collect data about alll the spells/CAs available to all the tank classes on zero buffs/AA same strength and see exactly if/where the discrepancies are.tbh I know *exactly* where the discrepancies are; and none of them have anythign to do with a warrior/brawler crit bonus or knight's stance; but I would rather dicuss them in a relavent thread than continually trying to derail this thread which no longer resembers its subject header.</blockquote>My ONLY problem with it is you can keep your uncontested avoidance while doing almost your max DPS, I don't even understand how you can argue that this is Balanced, when no other class can do this.Even duel weilding my Guardian can't come close to the DPS of our SK who is using sword/board... We're killing HM mobs and working on UF, so while we're not at the top end of raiding we're not at the bottom either. My parses are anywhere between 15k and 25k on average and the SK will ALWAYS be at least 33% higher. The higher Crit bonus doesn't even seem to make much of a difference, if anything I see it as a way to keep Warriors within range of Crusaders.IF when 2 handers are improved KS is changed to something to benefit 2 handers and DPS/Hate is balanced across the tank classes then I have no issue. IF it's not though then both warriors and Brawlers need something to enable them to keep some uncontested avoidance while DPSing. EG.Crusader - KS - 2 Handers gain 10% avoidance.Warrior - Some AA somewhere to give 10% avoidance to the offhand weapon when duel weilding.Brawler - Change their Offensive and mid stances to keep at least 10% avoidance.I want my class balanced and unfortunately I see this ability as throwing balance out, again, I don't mind that it increases DPS, but it needs to do it in such a way that you can't keep your uncontested avoidance. I'm not saying you can keep FULL defense while doing max DPS, I'm saying you keep your UNCONTESTED AVOIDANCE when maxxing DPS.Even if by some miracle all tank classes where balanced to do similar max DPS, with this ability in game it would still mean that Crusaders while doing the same DPS as everyone else duel weilding would be doing it with 30% avoidance!</blockquote>Melee Crit bonus of 150% gives similar tho different bonuses to a crusader melee/spell crit bonus of 130%; sure you can also DW and use a 2hander but if you compare KS to your inate crit bonus you BOTH have the option to DPS whilst using a sword+board.Once 2handers are fixed you will see crusader us them to maintain MAX DPS... however knight's stance will not be effective and warriors/brawlers using DW/2handers will be able to maintain their max dps IN ADDITION to the melee crit bonus inatly given to the class.How is that so hard to understand... all fighter classes have either knight's stance or melee crit bonus. the real issue is not in either of them its the fact that 2handers are very poorly itemised and there are only 2 decent ones which are worth gtting which upgrade a standard 1hander with knight's stance bonusa.. and both of those are from 4 rune theer.Once itemisation is fixed... knight's stance will *not* matter as they will not be able to use a shiled whilst using a 2hander. istead crusader gain a benefit to autoatatck only using a shield and crusaders/brawlers get a melee cerit bonus which effects ALL aspects of their DPS, CAs and Autoattack.As for the "Crusader DPS issue" more a discussion for another thread; (although it is more of a guardian issue).</blockquote>As has been pointed out, the benefit IS NOT 20%, even now my Guardian is at ~60% Crit bonus when MTing, our SK is similar since he has almost identical gear.Add in the innates and:SK = 60% + 130% = 190% (the usual 130% innate crit bonus)Guardian = 60% + 150% = 210% (the 150% crit bonus Warriors have)That's only just above a 10% difference in crit bonus, the SK still has 25% higher auto attack damage than I do. Again.. I don't care that it increases DPS, I care that it allows you to keep your uncontested avoidance while doing so, even now the difference is only 10%, what about mid next expansion when everyone is running around with ~300% crit bonus, and they WILL be, there is simply no room for improvement anymore.On top of this you seem to be ignoring that Crusaders still out DPS other plate tanks even with the reduced crit bonus, so it's hardly effecting them that badly. They would STILL out DPS other tank classes even with the loss of Knights Stance. This may change when Zerkers are able to 100% AOE auto attack with flurry and AOE on their offhand as well, but as a Guardian I'm going to be staying pretty much where I am.Knights Stance was put in for the Mythical and TSO because Crusaders couldn't use their Mythical and a 2 hander at the same time, that's the only reason, it was in WAAY before the consolidated crit or the innate crit bonuses where changed. For a Warrior to do the DPS of a Crusader we have to be duel weilding, loosing our avoidance and in my case not even doing the same DPS.... I'm really failing to see your argument that I can DPS with a sword+Board and keep up with a Crusader.