Guardians: Requesting Feedback [Archive] - Page 3

bishoph

08-30-2010, 02:59 PM

Looking at all the changes, we get a small step forward and a huge step back with the Auto Attack changes.A lot of people have posted, they did not like the aggression line, when it was first posted many weeks back. Lots of people put in ideas for changes. None of the was even listened too. Why ask for feedback, then not listen to it at all? You are going to get the same feedback from people on test. Are you going to blow that feed back off too? The changes are not enough. Many posted they were not enough, but there has been no talking between staff and players for the most part on this thread. Where have the Dev's been, asking questions and posting ideas that the players can respond too? That way both sides can work together, to get something that might be close to being right. Many other games do this, and it makes the players feel that they are cared about. All we got is, we want to do this, we say not enough and post changes, and you do what you posted in the first place. Most of the Guardians, in this thread have been trying to get the class viable, without being OP. We have not asked for nerfs, which some need to put in game. Im not just talking on the Fighter’s either. The Dev team really needs to take a strong look at the game. There are many balance issues, in this game. Most of the time we are ignored when they are brought up. Someone brought up the triangle for balance which is like what I posted.Offense + Defense + Until = 10You have classes the total up to 6 to 7 and other classes that are up around 15.Deep down inside, I fear the other mechanic changes were the heal crit and this Auto attack change. We will then see nothing else for a long time. The heal crit did nothing to help us out. The other fighter classes got put back a little, but nowhere near close enough to account for the defensive issues we have. The Auto attack change, hurts us a lot more than we gain. Oh sure when DW, we will do a bit more damage, but we need that damage when we are sword and board. Why I made a Guardian, I like the Defensive tanks. I understand that they do less damage. They should do a bit less, but they still should be able to the job of a tank. That job is stand in front of a mob and take hits, so the rest of the team can do their job. A good tank, allows the DPS to pile on damage with out fear of dieing. A good Tank, has the defensive tools so the healers do not have to stress out to keep them alive. We do not need the DPS of an Assassin to do our job, but we need the tools in place so it can be done. Hate transfers, and lowering people hates is the lazy way to fix hate issues in a game. We need balance, and reasons for each class to be in game. If you are going to run with the aggression line, then a few changes need to be made. The +x% hate gain, needs to go away. It needs to add to the hate cap, to allow us to get up to 75% hate gain or more. Many have posted, its way to easy to get to the 50% hate gain cap. Lots of guardians do not even have points in the hate gain in the STR line any more. Why are they going to take one in a different section, when most of the ability’s in that tree are way below par? The whole line really needs to be reworked or just scraped and not put in. A mini amends is not going to fix us at all. It makes many feel like you just are slapping things together and do not really care about us as a class. A lot of Paladin’s hate Amends, and want something better so they can do their job. Not tank should rely on any other class, for hate on a mob. That is asking for trouble. The +hate gain buffs from some classes are not bad, but all hate transfers are a bad idea. If they have any kind of issue, we now lose hate on the mob. Gee sorry, it was a wipe. I had to go because the wife fell off a chair. I guess we need a tank who can hold argo when I am not around. We need to see some real changes to the balance issues in the game. Not some small band aid that the Dev’s think will fix the game. The game on paper and how it really plays are two totally different things. If you are not going to fix our issues, then please let us know. Having to wait around for three+ weeks, for changes that are very minor fixes is not good enough.

RafaelSmith

08-30-2010, 03:39 PM

<blockquote>Guardian “Got Your Back” is now raidwide and has a 50 meter radius.Still useless ability that no Guardian is going to want or use. Nobody brings a Guard to a raid to protect other tanks. And totally useless for groups. “Cripple” is now a combat art that deals damage and reduces riposte damage of the target by 75%. “Call of Shielding” now increases the maximum health of the raid as well as the defense skill.Better than what it used to be but still rather weak and again not a reason to bring a Guardian to raid. Does nothing to help us at the heroic level where we are suffering the most. “Guardian Sphere” now has a 0.5 second casting time. It lasts for 12-20 seconds (based on spell revision) and grants the guardian a 25% (at master) chance to absorb an attack (same as before) but no longer has max triggers of 6. The interpose effect has been changed to a stoneskin proc at 50% at master.Looks to be ok......need to test to be sure. Even still, dont really see this helping us in areas we suffer the most.....i,.e agro and DPS. “Recapture” now reduces the hate position of the group members by 1 as well. The reuse is now 45 seconds.100% better than before but thats not really saying much since it was perhaps the most useless ability in the game. “Iron Will” now reduces snare effects on the guardian as well as increases stamina. (36% at master at 90)Um ok its not a nerf at least.........Again does not do a thing to help us in areas we suffer. “Plant” now forces targets in Area of Effect to target the guardian and increases the guardian’s threat slightly. The duration has been slightly reduced.Without knowing what the duration is hard to say if its any better. If its still 5m range then it really doesnt help much because at that range mobs are already on us. Guardians ....at least mine don't really have much trouble grabbing aggro on AE..........its keeping the aggro where we suffer. This just seems like a grab aggro kinda thing. “Enhance: Plant” now improves the duration by 0.4 seconds per point rather than 1.-tbd- “Double Attack” is now “Flurry” and grants 3% Flurry chance rather than 9% double attack.Did we really need our DPS nerfed more? “Bind Wound” now heals the warrior to full.I guess it helps the Soloing Guard. The “Crippling” line has been changed to the “Aggression” line: “Enhance: Intercept” also reduces incoming damage to the target of Intercept.Better than nothing. Still doesnt help areas we suffer in. “Enhance: Moderate” now increases the target’s crit bonus by 1% rather than reducing hate gain by 2%.Hmm....I guess its a buff since currently people are usually past caps. “Enhance: Rescue” has been moved to slot 4 in the new hate line (formally crippling.) “Enhance: Reinforcement” has been moved to slot 5 in the new hate line.Enhance: Reinforcement is the only one I care about so as long as I still have it im good. “Enhance: Rescue” in the original slot has been replaced with “Enhance: Call to Arms” which increases the skill bonuses by 7% per rank.Might be a buff if Mit caps were removed or increased. “Enhance: Reinforcement” in the original slot has been replaced with “Enhance: Call of Shielding” which increases the spell by 5% per rank."Enhance: Ruin” is now “Enhance: Provoke” and increases the threat amount by 7% per point.“Enhance: Concussion” is now “Enhance: Shout” and increases the potency and reduces the resist chance of Shout.If our main method of holding aggro is be via threats and taunts then we need much larger % boosts than these...at a minimum 30%. “Enhance: Sever” is now “Enhance: Hatred” and increases the guardian’s threat generation by 2% per rank.Useless unless the 50% hate buff cap is removed. “Cripple” is now “Shoulder the Burdon” and transfers 10% threat from the target group member to the guardian.Useless on raids..........hard to justify the useless AAs required to open this up even for groups. “Hold the Line” and “Aggressive Defense” now trigger threat 100% of the time on a successful block. “Aggressive Nature” now increases the threat amounts on “Hold the Line” and “Aggressive Defense.”Its a good start but still we really need a 20-30% boost in the amount HTL procs for.</blockquote>

bishoph

08-30-2010, 03:57 PM

For those not able to see test...To get Enhcnce Rescue now, you need 3 points in Enhance: Hatred (2% hate gain per point) or 3 points in Enhcanced: Shout. To get points in either of those you need 3 points in Enhance: Provoke or 3 poitns in Enhance: Battle Cry (to get to shout) . Enhanced Reinforcement, can be gotten with 3 points in Enhance: Precise Strike. not seeing Cripple any where.

Soul_Dreamer

08-31-2010, 05:43 AM

Cripple was changed to "Shoulder the Burden" during the feedback on the other thread, I think it's a mistake in the notes.

dalponis

08-31-2010, 05:19 PM

Ha, I think most people were kinda happy. They thought they were getting another combat-art. Lol

Rhita

08-31-2010, 06:00 PM

<div>Originally Posted by Test Server</div><div>GuardianGuardian Sphere should now work correctly.Last Man Standing no longer has a casting or recovery time. It is now a stoneskin instead of damage reduction.Enhance: Plant now increases duration and radius.Enhance: Plant has been moved to where Enhance: Rescue was.The original location for Enhance: Plant is now Enhance: Armored and increases block chance when in defensive stance.Enhance: Shout and Enhance: Provoke have been combined into Enhance: Taunts.Enhance: Rescue has been moved to where Enhance: Provoke</div><div>New Updates on test for those who didnt know. Also the AoE attack/flurry offhand changes are there too.</div>

Hilty

09-01-2010, 11:14 AM

Hmmm they quickly changed what they started with, that is promising.I still don't like guardian sphere if you are not going to make us an sk, and more of a utility tank guardian sphere should be 100% stone skin on target. Raid wide imoSentry watch... caster should not receive that damage, seems to me a guardian would protect his group or raid with out getting him self killed cant guard much when you're dead. And what is wrong with making unyielding will until canceled, keep the recast but a 3min guess when to use is dumb.Having call of shielding and battle tactics is kind of redundant also, nice but I think u can do better thereenhanced armored is great, a very good idea but it should put us equal to or greater than a pally I don't play a pally but with it cast it seems like it might not be on par yet I could be wrong.One last gripe. Im going to compare wizards to warlocks and guard to zerk.Now maybe I am the suck, but zerkers like warlocks are superior on encounter/aoe attack while the wizard is superior on single target attack, but on my guardian geared the same against a zerk I don't feel I do as much damage. An equally geared SK will slaughter me single target but i dont know maybe they have way more pot. Or crit bonus. a naked 90 250 guard verse a 90 250 sk or zerk with equal skill should be superior dps single target and if you have read any forum this is not the case, so u need to add more damage to all our single target attacks

Landiin

09-01-2010, 11:48 AM

When we put on a shield we need a large boost in TPS or DPS. I prefer DPS bing there are loads of DPS checks out there. We NEED one of the other when we put on a shield I have no prob with out a shield but when I have to put one on it gets tricky allot of the times.

bishoph

09-01-2010, 01:59 PM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>When we put on a shield we need a large boost in TPS or DPS. I prefer DPS bing there are loads of DPS checks out there. We NEED one of the other when we put on a shield I have no prob with out a shield but when I have to put one on it gets tricky allot of the times.</blockquote>maybe the end of the agression tree should add in CB and Pot.

vinere

09-01-2010, 03:35 PM

They "fixed" +mitigation increase blue stat on test, which has resulted in a large mitigation decerase from these stats. They said that plate fighters were getting x3 the bonus wanted, and brawlers over 5x. So this should put people back under the mitigation cap, except maybe at the highend, unbuffed atleast.

WarmMachine

09-02-2010, 09:46 AM

<cite>vinere wrote:</cite><blockquote>They "fixed" +mitigation increase blue stat on test, which has resulted in a large mitigation decerase from these stats. They said that plate fighters were getting x3 the bonus wanted, and brawlers over 5x. So this should put people back under the mitigation cap, except maybe at the highend, unbuffed atleast.</blockquote>Well right now you can tank pretty much all ez mode stuff in dps gear. Right now on live my guard has 16950 mit in defensive (t2 bp, t3 dps helm, t2 dps bracers, rest t3 defensive). Against hard mode mobs the mit cap is around 18000. Yes mit says 75% at 1400ish but this is agaisnt a level 90 mob, not a lv 98 mob. Back in RoK beta when you could create lv 80 with a full set of gear I checked out guardians so called mit advantage over the other tanks, it was 650 or 3% more mitigation. This nurf will not help guardians it will only hurt all tanks on the harder encounters and maybe even make a few guilds not be able to kill a few mobs they once coud.

Hilty

09-02-2010, 10:27 AM

Landiin

09-02-2010, 11:35 AM

<cite>WarmMachine wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>vinere wrote:</cite><blockquote>They "fixed" +mitigation increase blue stat on test, which has resulted in a large mitigation decerase from these stats. They said that plate fighters were getting x3 the bonus wanted, and brawlers over 5x. So this should put people back under the mitigation cap, except maybe at the highend, unbuffed atleast.</blockquote>Well right now you can tank pretty much all ez mode stuff in dps gear. Right now on live my guard has 16950 mit in defensive (t2 bp, t3 dps helm, t2 dps bracers, rest t3 defensive). Against hard mode mobs the mit cap is around 18000. Yes mit says 75% at 1400ish but this is agaisnt a level 90 mob, not a lv 98 mob. Back in RoK beta when you could create lv 80 with a full set of gear I checked out guardians so called mit advantage over the other tanks, it was 650 or 3% more mitigation. This nurf will not help guardians it will only hurt all tanks on the harder encounters and maybe even make a few guilds not be able to kill a few mobs they once coud.</blockquote>Yes the deference isn't as big as the crusaders like to make out like it is. Don't let them fool you any.

Hirofortis

09-02-2010, 12:10 PM

So I logged into test today an my guard who is mostly geared for heroic content and I must say OUCH. Loosing 6% of my mitigation really hurts. For raid tanks, who are geared out well, this may not be a huge hit, but for heroic tanks it is very damaging. I hope they think this though a bit more as right now it is going to put a lot of tanks in the scout level of mitigation. Next, scouts tanking over tanks because they have more mit?

Yimway

09-02-2010, 12:33 PM

I wouldn't poo-poo the mit changes from a guardian perspective. This change just made warrior mit buffs extremely relevant again. As a warrior you should be able to show a measurable survivability edge over any crusader currently in or competing for MT slots.As far as you heroic guards out there, just make sure you've been stacking on all the stonewill available to you, and you'll survive this mit nerf just fine.

Hirofortis

09-02-2010, 01:01 PM

So I did some testing with the changes.Pre NerfMitigation: 11722 (72.2%)<ul><li>That is with 8 points in Tactical Wisdom and in Defensive Stance</li></ul>Post NerfMitigation: 8716 (66.3%)<ul><li>That is with 8 points in Tactical Wisdom and in Defensive Stance</li></ul>Post Nerf (Max Defense AA Setup)Mitigation: 9220 (67.5%)<ul><li>10 in Unshakable (504 mit)</li><li>8 point in Tactical Wisdom (4% mit)</li><li>8 point in Executioner's Fortification (10% mit)</li><li>Defensive Stance</li></ul><div>I don't even want to think what this will do to my brawler. He might as well be a mage for what his armor mit will be at.</div><div></div><div>I understand that SOE wants to fix a bug, but this is sad. At the very least, with all the aa's in defense I should be able to get a lot closer. Loosing 3k mit to a t2 and t3 geared tank may not be much but for instance tanks it is bad. Please think about what you have going here and see if you can at least fix part of it. I would recommend starting with the guards wis line as the amount of mit you get from it is a joke.</div>

stargazer5678

09-02-2010, 02:32 PM

Guardians, if you don't like the mitigation change you don't know what's good for you. Unlike previous changes this one might make us viable tanks again..

Landiin

09-02-2010, 03:02 PM

<cite>stargazer5678 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians, if you don't like the mitigation change you don't know what's good for you. Unlike previous changes this one might make us viable tanks again..</blockquote>It all depends on how they readjust everything once they finally get it where they want it.

Hirofortis

09-02-2010, 03:30 PM

<cite>stargazer5678 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardians, if you don't like the mitigation change you don't know what's good for you. Unlike previous changes this one might make us viable tanks again..</blockquote>Not against the changes. Just saying that they balanced content for the way things are now. Hitting with this now will require a rebalancing of encounters. Fixing some of the aa's so that they are useful is also important. As was said earlier, if making these changes makes parts of the game unplayable due to current balancing, then the whole thing is a fail.

schizolic

09-03-2010, 06:55 AM

how about removing the Armored block chance and fo 5 points we get our weapon damage increase while we are in def stance like the crusaders get in any stance, that would help close some of the gap

Rhita

09-03-2010, 04:26 PM

<cite>schizolic wrote:</cite><blockquote>how about removing the Armored block chance and fo 5 points we get our weapon damage increase while we are in def stance like the crusaders get in any stance, that would help close some of the gap</blockquote>Thats more suited for the slaughtering line and not stability line.

schizolic

09-05-2010, 03:32 AM

either way it would be a positive change.

Britty

09-05-2010, 10:31 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wouldn't poo-poo the mit changes from a guardian perspective. This change just made warrior mit buffs extremely relevant again. As a warrior you should be able to show a measurable survivability edge over any crusader currently in or competing for MT slots.As far as you heroic guards out there, just make sure you've been stacking on all the stonewill available to you, and you'll survive this mit nerf just fine.</blockquote>I can't see why is this applicable to Guardians only. Basically every tank class will now load up on Stonewill gear and survive just fine.Or am I missing something?

vinere

09-05-2010, 10:35 AM

<cite>Britty wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wouldn't poo-poo the mit changes from a guardian perspective. This change just made warrior mit buffs extremely relevant again. As a warrior you should be able to show a measurable survivability edge over any crusader currently in or competing for MT slots.As far as you heroic guards out there, just make sure you've been stacking on all the stonewill available to you, and you'll survive this mit nerf just fine.</blockquote>I can't see why is this applicable to Guardians only. Basically every tank class will now load up on Stonewill gear and survive just fine.Or am I missing something?</blockquote>That works in groups.. having all 3 stonewills up when a huge physical ae is inc, isnt going to save you most the time. Stonewill is pwn for groups, its just good on raids, since normally you only have one mob hitting you to trigger it, and that mob hits hard enough to burn it up with every swing.

Ferunnia

09-05-2010, 11:19 AM

Why the QQ over this? If they stated the crap wasn't working right and fixed it you're not getting nerfed...you're getting put where you should be. Suck it up. If guards become viable I might actually finish leveling her up...(refuse to betray to Zerker, she's been a guard since like april of '05) It would be nice to see defensive crap actually mean something again, since it seems SoE refuses to pull the ole head out of the buttcheeks and realize DPS is the Guard's failing point.

bishoph

09-08-2010, 01:52 PM

From doing some AA tests, on test. Looks like we get the best gain form dropping the Str line all together, and going for the end line in Wis. Kind of sucks that we need to put 12 useless AA's in the line to get the end item. The DPS gain, and loseing the penalties on the stances, seams to help more than taking the whole agression line.

Zivgar

09-08-2010, 05:43 PM

I may have come to late to the game to add some suggestions, but it never hurts to try.'I am a wall of steel. No harm shall come to those I defend.'The Guardian is the archor of any group of adventures, providing leadership and protection for their allies.That is what is says when you make a guardian, but I don't think that is true.No harm shall come to those I defend? I can't keep aggro from those I defend.I provide protection for my allies? I have such weak taunts, so low DPS how can I protect these people?I think Guardians should have the best taunts around, best group taunts, AE taunts, single target taunts. I'm not saying I should have the best aggro control since damage is a huge part of that.These new changes are trying to fix that, and I think its a good start.Here are some changes I would like to also see:Warrior Tree:Wisdom line: Unshakable needs to be increased. At lvl 90 with 10 points in the tree it should be around 900 Mitigation (about the Mitigation of one armor piece). You do say we are a wall of steel.Belly smash needs 1 of 2 things. Either make it so you the mob does not need to be knocked down or increase the mitigation reduction. Giving us more knockdowns would be nice too. Like make slam a knockdown also. Or make it work on stunned oppenents too.Intelligence line: Relentless Assault needs to have the ability cast time reduction like the crusaders do. Yes its less useful for warriors, but it helps with Guardian AE attacks and defensive buffs. Why do crusaders get this over warriors?Guardian Tree:Slaughtering Line: Each skill should be higher, instead of 6% per rank I think it should be 10% per rank and 8 % per rank for Taunting Blow. This will help slightly with our DPS. I just think Guardians needs to be better at single target DPS. We should be better than Paladins in this category, but not better than AE DPS than a Paladin. We are both Defensive tanks, we should do about the same damage. I haven't done the math, but I don't think this will be a huge increase in DPS (around 4%?)Aggression Line: There is 2 ways to provide protection for your allies, do enough DPS so they can't rip off of you or have high enough Taunts so allies can't rip from you. Increase the taunt value of provoke from 7% to at least 10%, shout from 6% to 8-9%. If you don't want Guardians to do high DPS we need the best taunts in the game.Rally to Combat: I guess its fine, some people seem to like, I really don't, so I guess that sounds balanced. For me instead of increasing the duration I would rather see increase in taunt value. Do 5-8% taunt increase.Aggressive Entry: This is useless 80% of the time. My suggestion is to increase from 3% to 10-15% per rank or after pointing 5 point into that ability chance the % from 80% to 50%. As the way it is now I would spend the points into Enhance: Taunts than Aggressive Entry. Why would I put points into something that works 20% of the time for a 3% increase per rank?New Plant: This needs to have a HIGH Taunt value. If it doesn't do any damage it needs to start at 10m range, why make an AA that increases it? It basically forces you to get that AA. Instead make Enhance: Plant increase its taunt value with the increase in duration.Taunting Assault: This ability sucks, 2 second cast time? You serious? I make a joke with my friends that this ability is my anti-taunt, since by the time it casts the dps has ripped from me. This needs to be the same cast speed as taunting blow. Plan and simple.Hopefully Xelgad reads these ideas and can work some one them in. To provide protection for allies we need to do enough damage and high enough taunts to do that job. You placed that as the class description please let us live up to it.

Zivgar

09-08-2010, 06:21 PM

Another Idea I have to help Guardians, but also keep in the theme that Guardians provide protection for their allies.Thiis new ability would be added to Hold the Line. (It could be a stand alone skill also)Make Hold the Line a group buff. The orginal ability will stay and be the same, but added to that to the grooup members is a reactive damage and taunt. This would be simular to a wizards ColdShield. A mob hits one of your group members and it gets damaged and extra taunt value, but it credited to the Guardian.I rationalize this by what it says on the Guardian creation screen. 'No Harm with come to those who I defend.' If something causes harm to an ally the Guardian makes them pay for it. The damage increases hate value, the taunt increases hate value thus causing the mob to attack the Guardian faster and stop attacking group members. One way to help provide protection is by making a mob pay for attacking group members.I don't think this is overpowering because if the Guardian keeps aggro this does nothing, but for damage and taunt value I think it should be along the lines of Grave Sacrament. A Guardian has nothing like this ability and here is a way to get it, but its not as good since it has to hit an ally.For a raid I think this ability should be affected by AoE's, so it will work on your group. This gives more damage output for the Guardian and more taunting if his group stay in for the AoE and doesn't joist. Obivously the numbers need to be worked out to be balanced. I just think this in a unique idea that will help out a Guardian provide protection for their allies.

Cobrastang

09-09-2010, 01:31 PM

I play a guardian but he's not my main but im thinking thismore death pervents? I mean zerkers have 2 of them one of them maintained and the only one guardians have is unyielding will. Trust me since SF AA it's actually worth using (since u dont die 2 seconds after you use it) but, thats the only one we have not to mention it's not a maintained one. It could possibley wear off before it even gets used and depending on how much AA you have into it it could be awile before it refreshes. Not saying that could solidifie the class totally just my sense in it. Seems everyother tank has more pervents then a guardian does.

Yimway

09-09-2010, 03:07 PM

The arguement is that block + tos makes up for the gap on death prevents.Thats also the arguement that makes up for the tps/dps gap as well.IMO, the arguement is being spread thin.

Zivgar

09-13-2010, 04:49 PM

With the new changes to auto attack with ae and flurry working on the offhand guardians will need more help with our DPS while tanking. If we have to use a shield while tanking and have some scouts with us that gap will be wider in DPS. WE don't need a lot more DPS, but we need more o to be on par with other tanks.Perhaps we should get the idea out of our heads about defensive and offensive tanks to more of AE damage tanks and ST damage tanks. SoE wants all tanks be able to tank everything and I am fine with that, but in turn let all tanks do damage.So for plate tanks AE damage should be Zerker > SK > Paladin > GuardianST damage Guardian > Paladin > SK > ZerkerBut the difference between the them wouldn't be that great on the ST damage. AE damage I wouldn't care if the Guardian was farther behind.I feel all tanks should be able to hold AE aggro, then how to balance them would be defensive ultility (saves, group protection), raidwide/group ultility, AE damage vs ST damage.Of course with the current system I don't see this ever happening, but its fun to dream.

Emlar_from_Halas

09-14-2010, 06:14 AM

No reason why a guardian would make more dps than a zerk or a SK on ST.ST dps shoud be Zerk > Sk > Guard > Paly, but gap should be close enough so our taunts and procs can make the difference.

Shin

09-14-2010, 12:31 PM

Xelgad,I don't know if you are following the thread on eq2flames about this topic, but here is my suggestion:One idea I had would be to take the notion of "Offensive Stance" and "Defensive Stance" and apply them innately to the Berseker and Guardian respectively. IE: a Guardian is innately in "Defensive Stance" (with no offensive penalty, but massive Defensive buffs - 10-15% block chance, 15% mit buff, etc), and Berserkers are innately in "Offensive Stance" (with no defensive penalty, but massive offensive buffs - 10-15% crit bonus, 1-2% flurry, damage proc, etc).And for the rest of my post, <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/66634-xelgad-requests-feedback-guardians-post1477644.html#post1477644" target="_blank">here it is.</a>

schizolic

09-15-2010, 07:02 AM

the least they could have done was give us a free aa respec so we dont have to pay to get rid of some of the garbage they gave us

jadsded

09-15-2010, 02:31 PM

<cite>schizolic wrote:</cite><blockquote>the least they could have done was give us a free aa respec so we dont have to pay to get rid of some of the garbage they gave us</blockquote>I'm just glad I still had one left from somewhere before. That being said - I know you get a respec after you betray to zerker... maybe they just figured we would all use that one.

Zivgar

09-18-2010, 12:27 PM

<cite>Emlar@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>No reason why a guardian would make more dps than a zerk or a SK on ST.ST dps shoud be Zerk > Sk > Guard > Paly, but gap should be close enough so our taunts and procs can make the difference.</blockquote>Well ideally you are right it should be what you said (with Zerker and SK really close), but since Zerker and SK defensively are in many ways better than a guardian, a guardian should be doing more ST damage if that is the case. That would be a reason why.But I think the way we all want it would be as you said for ST damage: Zerk >= SK > Guardian > Paladin, where Paly and Guard are the better defensive tank with better survivability than Zerk and SK, but that just isn't the case now. If SoE wants all tanks to be able to tank end-game content, then you need all tanks to be able to DPS closely with the difference in who is better AE vs ST damage. Oh well just kinda running my mouth. I just wish they had some one playing all tank classes to help balance them better.

Terron

09-21-2010, 12:48 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to address one general point, we're trying to take a more subtle approach in adjusting this class. Instead of making one or two drastic changes, we're going for maybe a dozen smaller fixes and upgrades that result in a more balanced and better working Guardian. These fixes and upgrades will go beyond just utility. In that sense, it's good to hear that these changes won't immediately make Guardians desirable for every raid, since we certainly don't want utility to be the driving force that gets Guardians into raids.</blockquote>So the first smalll fix is in, and it does seem that by AA speccing for it I can hold aggro in non-optimal groups most of the time, even with 2 T1 DPS classes, even in defensive stance. Group tanking is fun again. Well done. (It is still not as easy as on my SK but that would be excessive).So what are your plans for the next step?What do you want to be "the driving force that gets Guardians into raids" if not utility?Peter

Brildean

09-21-2010, 01:55 PM

Umm to be a tank in raid its not about your class its about how you play that class. They could give guardians 100% base increase to auto attack but if you suck at playing your class guess what you still wont get in the raid. Only problem most guards have in raids is other tank classes..So lets change offensive to proc 4.0 a minute 5k detaunt along with changign all taunts to detaunts.Defensive stance Increases all taunts by 30% and procs 5k taunt 6.0 a minute..This way on single targets off tanks don't have to worry bout ripping agro from anyone as if they need to take agro they can hop into defensive and walla.. then they can also take the refresh and reuse off of stance switching.I'd call this balanced.

Twizty

09-21-2010, 03:10 PM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to address one general point, we're trying to take a more subtle approach in adjusting this class. Instead of making one or two drastic changes, we're going for maybe a dozen smaller fixes and upgrades that result in a more balanced and better working Guardian. These fixes and upgrades will go beyond just utility. In that sense, it's good to hear that these changes won't immediately make Guardians desirable for every raid, since we certainly don't want utility to be the driving force that gets Guardians into raids.</blockquote>So the first smalll fix is in, and it does seem that by AA speccing for it I can hold aggro in non-optimal groups most of the time, even with 2 T1 DPS classes, even in defensive stance. Group tanking is fun again. Well done. (It is still not as easy as on my SK but that would be excessive).So what are your plans for the next step?What do you want to be "the driving force that gets Guardians into raids" if not utility?Peter</blockquote>Don't be too surprised if thats the end of the balancing excercise. I can keep hate in raids fine, but only if I have plenty of hate proccing gear, charm from cella, library belt etc. My guild is by no means top end and the raidforce is getting better geared all the time, which can only mean more dps which in turn means headaches for me <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Like many guards I'm not that fussed about dps, sure it would be nice but we just dont have it while in defensive stance with a shield and I can't see us getting any help with it in the future. If I wanted to be a parse [Removed for Content], I'd have rolled another tank a long time ago. Another major concern for us Guardians at the moment seems to be the new 'triple attack' thats just been put on test. This could mean major problems for us holding aggro from high dps scouts in raids. Sure it will benefit us slightly but not that much while we have a shield in the other hand. Increased raid dps can only mean trouble for us to be honest.Over the past few weeks I've thought seriously about betraying to a zerker, simply to hold aggro better via dps. It would be a real shame if I had to resort to such drastic measures as my guard is, and always has been my main since launch. I havent always enjoyed playing the class over the years the same as a lot of you guys but I've stuck with it and learned to live with its failings. However if something isn't done about our tps behind a shield, I really don't see any other option if I'm to retain my MT role within my guild. It seems silly that in raid I can get my hate buffed to 100% if I want to, but as we all know there isn't much point with the 50% cap.My suggestions to Xelgad are as follows:Uncap our hate mod, via aa's if need beMake Hold the Line have a chance to proc when we INFLICT damage as well as when we block or recieve damage.These two simple changes would increase our TPS behind a board more than enough in my opinion and I can't see too many complaints about 'overpowered guards' in that respect, after all it's not going to put us at the top of the parse which is what most of the overpowered arguments boil down to if you ask me.

Terron

09-22-2010, 10:47 AM

<cite>Brildean wrote:</cite><blockquote>Umm to be a tank in raid its not about your class its about how you play that class. They could give guardians 100% base increase to auto attack but if you suck at playing your class guess what you still wont get in the raid.</blockquote>The best way to get into a raid is to start the raid - that is independant of class. It worked for me on Monday <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />The question is if a raid has a choice of a guard or some other equally well played plate fighter - whcih should they choose and why? Any of them can do the MT job, so it comes down to what extra they bring. That extra is where guards are lacking. All the others bring more personal DPS and better raid/group buffs.<cite>Brildean wrote:</cite><blockquote>This way on single targets off tanks don't have to worry bout ripping agro from anyone</blockquote>This implies that you haven't a clue about guards. We have no worries about ripping aggro accidentally, for 2 reasons:1) We like having aggro - when we don't have it we feel near useless as tanking is the only thing we do well.2) We can't do it - even dual-wielding in offensive our DPS is way behind other fighters when they are in defensive and using a shield.

Brildean

09-22-2010, 12:49 PM

The stance changes weren't just for guardians its for all tanks.. so that when we are tanking we dont have to worry bout the zerker goign all out doing double our dps and tps due to be in offensive. I have no problem with other dps toons.. cept tanks going all out dps. While in offensive the changes to offensive were to balance other tanks so they can dps when there is no need for an offtank cept for O sheet moments.. which would imply a simple stance change to get agro and hold agro tell ** MT ** is back up.As far as me not knowing what i'm talking about.. i pointed out the obvious problem that currently lies with the guardian class and that is limiting off tank's from dpsing. I suggested a fix for all tanks to balance out when there is no need for them to be taking agro and just dpsing away. I have no other problems with any other classes and I've tanked everything that my guild has killed so far.. The last changes were great for group survivability in raids we just need a couple more tweaks on sentry watch and possibly Plant to be more useful on raid mobs.Your just use to seeing all the other tanks have easy buttons to tanking.. well a guard is no easy button.. its all timing and surviving.

Kota

09-22-2010, 06:02 PM

what gives a zerk more single target dps than a guard ?

Terron

09-23-2010, 10:23 AM

<cite>Brildean wrote:</cite><blockquote>The stance changes weren't just for guardians its for all tanks..</blockquote>I misunderstood.<cite>Brildean wrote:</cite><blockquote>As far as me not knowing what i'm talking about.. i pointed out the obvious problem that currently lies with the guardian class and that is limiting off tank's from dpsing.</blockquote>That is not the only or most obvious problem. The most obvious one is that guards bring less to a raid than any other plate fighter (at least) and so don't really deserve a place on a raid. Feeling second class is not nice. I understand why other fighters did not like in RoK and agreed that they needed their tanking ability bringing up. We need the extra we bring to the raid beyond tanking brought up to their levels.<cite>Brildean wrote:</cite> <blockquote>The last changes were great for group survivability in raids we just need a couple more tweaks on sentry watch and possibly Plant to be more useful on raid mobs.</blockquote> I disagree. The extra hit points added a little, but guardian sphere whilst it doesn't kill us anymore doesn't actually do much either.<cite>Brildean wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Your just use to seeing all the other tanks have easy buttons to tanking..</blockquote> I don't know where you get that idea about me from. It is wrong.

Terron

09-23-2010, 10:39 AM

<cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>what gives a zerk more single target dps than a guard ?</blockquote>Being a berserker does <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Some details:They buff the group's strength rather than hit points/defense (the ability change has hurt this buff but for personnal dps it is unaltered).Their offensive stance has a damage proc rather than buffing strength.HTL only generates threat, the zerker equivalent does (less) threat and damageThey go berserk buffing their dps and attack speed (though diminishing returns makes that a small factor at high level)Generally zerkers CAs are more focussed on doing damage, where a guard's are more defensive. They don't just have one fro hitting many targets.

Kota

09-23-2010, 02:52 PM

misnomers. dps/haste are at or near capped for anyone in a decent raid. only real difference afaik between zerk and guard dps for single target is the zerk o stance proc. the only really different ca is the aggro/damage one. the zerk version is more damage than aggro while the guard one is more aggro than damage.

Terron

09-29-2010, 12:41 PM

<cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote> only real difference afaik between zerk and guard dps for single target is the zerk o stance proc. the only really different ca is the aggro/damage one. the zerk version is more damage than aggro while the guard one is more aggro than damage.</blockquote>There are many more differences. I already mentioned the HTL - zero damage - Agressive defense - some damage one.A couple more:At 44 guards get a green slow casting taunt + damage CA - no use for a single target and little use for multiple ones. Zerkers get a fast casting triple attack.Guards get reinforcement at 52 - a great snap aggro tool, but it does zero damage. Zerkers get Insolence at the same level - which can damage those who hit the zerker.

Meattray

10-05-2010, 09:27 AM

<cite>Meattray wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Britty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Xelgad,Fix Guardians. Enough is enough. I doubt anyone is going to wait for the 'long haul', because it's already been a very very long haul.If fixes do not come soon, I expect the last remaining Guardians will hemmorage out of the game or just be absorbed into other tank classes. And I don't blame them.SoE should be held accountable for wasting peoples time. Literally 4+ years of peoples time. SoE has forgotten that people's time is important. Peoples subscription and money is important.So: this is the absolute minimum I expect to seeFix the ridiculously massive DPS gap between Guardians and pretty much every other tank. Dual wield should always out DPS sword and shield given equal footing. No exceptions. Dual wield is 2 weapons for heavens sake. How much damage does a shield do???Give Guardians back the best mitigation survivability. Period. Unquestioned. This should be clearly visible, not having to be parsed to the nth degree to see if there's some kind of miniscule difference. Other tanks can heal and lifetap to increase survivability, I want my Guardian to laugh at being hit with melee damage as a minimum tradeoff.Strip this whole AoE vs ST agro tank debarcle. There is no such thing as an St tank and hasn't been for a very long time. AoE tank is preferred for about all content nowdays. All the tanks classes across the board should be AoE tanks.If SoE cannot concede these items then it is completely indicative of game designers of not only not understanding the combat mechanics of EQ2 but also no longer being in control of the game mechanics.In the beginning I don't think anyone wanted EQ2 to have tank classes which play in easy tank mode, but now years later there are easily 2 or 3 of them. So just make them all easy tank mode or make none of them easy tank mode.It's time you all pulled your heads in and had a very very hard look at this and a lot sooner than 2 game updates.</blockquote>This post is on the money, fix it or merge the classes or something.Guards are obsolete classes now,yes they still work, they can still tank, are they wanted?The gap between between the Tank classes is huge. It needs to be fixed.Let me give my take on things in general (nothing to do with Guards)I have returned from 3-4 years away, back then FABLED was special. I have returned to a game where if your not fully fabled your [Removed for Content]. The gap between legendary and fabled was never so large. An example i had a few days ag with a level 90 Tank you can try and try and try to Tank a instance encounter in legendary amour even with a mezzer mezzing lots of adds. Bring in a fabled tank, and he just tanks it all and makes it look easy.In trying to cater for your high end players raid gear now is just so good your making most classes with good fabled into god like players.I have never seen players doing what they are doing now, When could casters tank multiple encounters and kill them in seconds? The Hole as example, then i see certain class tanks doing the stuff solo. When did it change tanks would pull 5-10 encounters and AOE the crap out of them with a normal group?The game as got to a point were certain classes are doing very well out of the changes and some are not, i am just seeing such a large difference between gear now as well.A warlock in legenday crap parse at 10k DPS, a fully fabled Warlock does 40K DPS. The gaps are so big now.Basicly - STOP SCREWING THE GAME - LISTEN TO OUR FEEDBACK - MAKE CHANGES TO TEST TO SHOW YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING TO FIX GUARDS NOW ~!If not i promise you within the month my account will be canceled</blockquote>Well the changes people wanted never happened, i promised i would cancel my account.My account is canceled, i think you were never serious in fixing the guardian class, over the years i have seen SOE screw classes and sometimes make them good. Guards were the king of not taking damage, now we are just rare, almost non existent.The eq2 Population is almost gone, and new EQ2 Extended is another slap in the face.

bishoph

10-05-2010, 02:38 PM

So many things have brought us to this point in game. When they launched SF, and merged all the Stat's, quite a few people pointed out how bad this would be. We are seeing the effects of it right now. Yes in ToS Guards were the number four plate tank, but there was some hope. The SF changes, made the gap even bigger. The changes screwed over a lot of people. I know quite a few rouges, that now had worthless gear on. It was all Str and Int, with no Agil. With the way gear is today, there are a lot of worthless stats on it. People can hit 100% crit with out raid gear, so there is no reason to have crit in game. Just bump up everyones damage and remove it from the game. If you do not have 100% crit, you can not do your job as well, and it makes people change out for lesser gear so they can have that 100% crit. The crit change was one of the biggest mistakes that SoE has done. Right behind it is changing what Attributes do for classes. You now have some tank and healing classes that are at or above T2 damage. This is not right and is causing all the issues in game. It is more than just tanks, that are feeling the unbalacned headache. Do I want you to fix Guardians, yes I do. I would really like you to do the fix right. I had hope when I first saw this post. Then after weeks went by and we would get little feed back on the ideas in it, that hope started to die. Yes a few people asked for things that would have made the class OP, but for the most part we wanted items to would give us a chance to make the class fun and have a roll in game. We did not ask for nerfs to other class, because we did not want to make other people go into the boat we are in now. Should some other classes be nerf'd? yes they should. Guardians, out of the four plate tanks, have some of the worst endlines in ToS and SF. This is mainly in the ToS end lines. I do not want to be the king of the tanking hill, but I want my place near the top of it. That place is the same place that all tanks should be. There should never be one or two tanks that stand on the top. SoE says that that Guardian, is the king of Defense and Mitagation, but we are at best number three. More than likely we are number four over the long run. So we as a class needs to be buffed up, or someone at SoE needs to spend ten minutes and change the class discription on the character screen. All we want is balance, witch can be easy to do. In one day, the Dev's could figure out all the balance issues with the plate tank classes. It might take months, to find fixes for all of the issues and that is fine. First everyone needs to know, what the issues are. If SoE has not run simulators and found that some tanks can do better than T2 damage, than that is where the problem lies. If they have not run defensive sim's to find out that one tanks dies way before the other ones over and over, there is yet another problem. We as players, have done our job and provided input and shown some of the issues in game. Maybe we are asking for to much, in wanting a game that is balanced and fun to play?I like playing the Defensive tanks, and I know they are lower in DPS. That is fine and I live with that fact. It is the play style I like to play. Yes it can be hard to find a spot in a raid, if we are not the MT, because we are lower in DPS. Though in most games, we bring in a lot of utility that our DPS dose not matter. We allow other classes to do a lot more. Using the Offfense + defense + util = 10, if a game came out and a tank was 1 (o) + 6 (d) + 4 (util) to make that 10, I would be all over it. I am that guy that wants the team to win. I want them to win, because I bring in the safety, buffs or Debuffs that allow others do their job. A good tank (player and class), bring the tools to allow every other class to do their job better. We hold the agro, so people can stand behind them and use rear attacks. We hold the agro, so DPS classes do not have to lose DPS, by putting on defesive gear. We have the buffs and ability, so the healers are not in panic mode trying to heal a marshmellow. We hold the agro so, healers are not having to heal ever person in the raid/group. We are the fort wall, that people can hind behind and feel safe, while they shoot at the emeny. We are not the shooters or the cannons, we are the wall. We take the punishment, so others do not have to. If a tank has plate gear, they should never be near the top of damage done. This is for equal geared players. We should be on par with the Util classes like Bards for damage done. Yes they bring the buffs and debuffs, and make everyone look better than they are. Tanks should do the same thing, because we are the one allowing them to be safe to do it.

Draylore

10-05-2010, 03:45 PM

<cite>bishoph wrote:</cite><blockquote>So many things have brought us to this point in game. When they launched SF, and merged all the Stat's, quite a few people pointed out how bad this would be. We are seeing the effects of it right now. Yes in ToS Guards were the number four plate tank, but there was some hope. The SF changes, made the gap even bigger. The changes screwed over a lot of people. I know quite a few rouges, that now had worthless gear on. It was all Str and Int, with no Agil. With the way gear is today, there are a lot of worthless stats on it. People can hit 100% crit with out raid gear, so there is no reason to have crit in game. Just bump up everyones damage and remove it from the game. If you do not have 100% crit, you can not do your job as well, and it makes people change out for lesser gear so they can have that 100% crit. The crit change was one of the biggest mistakes that SoE has done. Right behind it is changing what Attributes do for classes. You now have some tank and healing classes that are at or above T2 damage. This is not right and is causing all the issues in game. It is more than just tanks, that are feeling the unbalacned headache. Do I want you to fix Guardians, yes I do. I would really like you to do the fix right. I had hope when I first saw this post. Then after weeks went by and we would get little feed back on the ideas in it, that hope started to die. Yes a few people asked for things that would have made the class OP, but for the most part we wanted items to would give us a chance to make the class fun and have a roll in game. We did not ask for nerfs to other class, because we did not want to make other people go into the boat we are in now. Should some other classes be nerf'd? yes they should. Guardians, out of the four plate tanks, have some of the worst endlines in ToS and SF. This is mainly in the ToS end lines.I do not want to be the king of the tanking hill, but I want my place near the top of it. That place is the same place that all tanks should be. There should never be one or two tanks that stand on the top. SoE says that that Guardian, is the king of Defense and Mitagation, but we are at best number three. More than likely we are number four over the long run. So we as a class needs to be buffed up, or someone at SoE needs to spend ten minutes and change the class discription on the character screen. All we want is balance, witch can be easy to do. In one day, the Dev's could figure out all the balance issues with the plate tank classes. It might take months, to find fixes for all of the issues and that is fine. First everyone needs to know, what the issues are. If SoE has not run simulators and found that some tanks can do better than T2 damage, than that is where the problem lies. If they have not run defensive sim's to find out that one tanks dies way before the other ones over and over, there is yet another problem. We as players, have done our job and provided input and shown some of the issues in game. Maybe we are asking for to much, in wanting a game that is balanced and fun to play?I like playing the Defensive tanks, and I know they are lower in DPS. That is fine and I live with that fact. It is the play style I like to play. Yes it can be hard to find a spot in a raid, if we are not the MT, because we are lower in DPS. Though in most games, we bring in a lot of utility that our DPS dose not matter. We allow other classes to do a lot more. Using the Offfense + defense + util = 10, if a game came out and a tank was 1 (o) + 6 (d) + 4 (util) to make that 10, I would be all over it. I am that guy that wants the team to win. I want them to win, because I bring in the safety, buffs or Debuffs that allow others do their job.A good tank (player and class), bring the tools to allow every other class to do their job better. We hold the agro, so people can stand behind them and use rear attacks. We hold the agro, so DPS classes do not have to lose DPS, by putting on defesive gear. We have the buffs and ability, so the healers are not in panic mode trying to heal a marshmellow. We hold the agro so, healers are not having to heal ever person in the raid/group. We are the fort wall, that people can hind behind and feel safe, while they shoot at the emeny. We are not the shooters or the cannons, we are the wall. We take the punishment, so others do not have to. If a tank has plate gear, they should never be near the top of damage done. This is for equal geared players. We should be on par with the Util classes like Bards for damage done. Yes they bring the buffs and debuffs, and make everyone look better than they are. Tanks should do the same thing, because we are the one allowing them to be safe to do it.</blockquote>I agree with you but things/times have changed......those of us that prefer our tank classes to be the "wall"/"meathshield"...at the bottom of the parse, yada yada are becoming a smaller and smaller minority in MMOs. A class like Guardian is obsolete in EQ2 and doubt any future MMO will have such a single purpose class. To expect designers to balance/update EQ2 to encourage a class like Guardian or give it any sorta of unique and useful identity is wishful thinking. SOE made their decision about what being a "tank" in EQ2 now means with TSO. The majority of the playerbase today wants their "tanks" to be the equiv of a SK or Zerker......both of which are able to exceed at much more than their basic archetype role while filling that basic role easily. Guardian can only performs its basic archetype role and then not really much better than any of the others ...hence it has become a pointless and obsolete class.Not really sure what the overall goal of the most recent Guardian changes were but they are not an indication that SOE has any plans to revitalize the class and make it relavent to the game anymore.The writing has been on the wall now for 2 expansions.

aislynn00

10-07-2010, 06:37 AM

I doubt that SOE has any clue what is going on. It seems clear to me that Xelgad actually wants to balance the classes (look at the fighter heal crit nerf, the Victorious Concerto nerf, the first steps towards improving illusionists, the mitigation nerf coming with the next expansion, etc.). The problem is, Xelgad doesn't have a clue as to what goes on in high-end raiding.He appears to genuinely believe that guardians are fine in their current state--or at least will be, once the mitigation nerf goes through. That is manifestly not the case; paladins and berserkers will continue to tank with unrivaled survivability even after said nerf while continuing to shame the guardian in terms of DPS as well as utility. And as for right now, six months away from the potential mitigation nerf, even bruisers and SK's are MT'ing in some of the top-end guilds.I don't see what can be done to change his opinion, though. Guardians are a distinct minority, especially in high-end raid guilds, so our voices are easily drowned out by all those people who, for one reason or another, prefer to keep most fighter classes overpowered. It certainly doesn't help that we guardians are divided in what we want and what we think our class needs. To some extent, though, I guess it is unavoidable, given that we have vastly different play styles--some of us have cleared most hardmode raid content in the game while others have never even been on a raid. Even so, it would be great if we could try to reach some sort of consensus regarding possible class improvements.I would nominate the following as key goals:1. Dramatically improved single-target DPS, especially when wielding a shield.2. Add 10% permanent Damage Reduction to our Mythical buff.3. Cut the base reuse time of Last Man Standing down to 2 min and lower the number of stoneskins to 3.4. Change Block to put up a single stoneskin instead of granting 100% blocking vs single melee attack.

Draylore

10-07-2010, 10:50 AM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't see what can be done to change his opinion, though. Guardians are a distinct minority, especially in high-end raid guilds, so our voices are easily drowned out by all those people who, for one reason or another, prefer to keep most fighter classes overpowered.</blockquote>Overpowered tanks makes things mindless, easy and quick which for some odd reason people think is "fun".

Landiin

10-07-2010, 01:10 PM

<cite>Draylore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't see what can be done to change his opinion, though. Guardians are a distinct minority, especially in high-end raid guilds, so our voices are easily drowned out by all those people who, for one reason or another, prefer to keep most fighter classes overpowered.</blockquote>Overpowered tanks makes things mindless, easy and quick which for some odd reason people think is "fun".</blockquote>This! And any one can play them, it doesn't take that much skill to play these tanks just a bit of knowledge of the encounters.Guards are the free class, they will never be as good as the none free classes, other wise people wouldn't want to buy them. Face it, we will never be equal in MT raiding again. That will be the domain of the none free tanks.

Britty

10-07-2010, 05:34 PM

The ONE change that would have improved the class more and with greater effectiveness than all the minor spell and AA changes was an improvement to DPS. This was pointed out by many experienced players throughout the weeks of feedback and they were just plain ignored.There is no one in the world that is ever going to convince me a tank class that can wield TWO weapons should be doing subordinate damage to classes that sword and board given equal footing....else what is the point of dual wield and how much damage does a shield do??????The DPS didn't come, so people will try out the changes for a bit, have a bit of a chat about them but in the end it is inevitable they will come to the same conclusion....Guardians are an unneeded redundant tank class.No one gives a stuff about damage absorption anymore. In todays EQ2 a tank needs 3 things only. Great Agro control, Survivability and DPS. If you only posses one or two of those things, you're a redundant tank. Nowdays surviviability is self heals, deathsaves and items with stonewall and heal procs. Mitigation is down the list. That's the hard news.Xelgad, you needed to listen to the players. This just DID NOT HAPPEN.

RafaelSmith

10-07-2010, 06:12 PM

<cite>Britty wrote:</cite><blockquote>The ONE change that would have improved the class more and with greater effectiveness than all the minor spell and AA changes was an improvement to DPS. This was pointed out by many experienced players throughout the weeks of feedback and they were just plain ignored.There is no one in the world that is ever going to convince me a tank class that can wield TWO weapons should be doing subordinate damage to classes that sword and board given equal footing....else what is the point of dual wield and how much damage does a shield do??????The DPS didn't come, so people will try out the changes for a bit, have a bit of a chat about them but in the end it is inevitable they will come to the same conclusion....Guardians are an unneeded redundant tank class.No one gives a stuff about damage absorption anymore. In todays EQ2 a tank needs 3 things only. Great Agro control, Survivability and DPS. If you only posses one or two of those things, you're a redundant tank. Nowdays surviviability is self heals, deathsaves and items with stonewall and heal procs. Mitigation is down the list.That's the hard news.Xelgad, you needed to listen to the players. This just DID NOT HAPPEN.</blockquote>Tanks have always needed those things. Ideally the 3 should be counter variables in balance......super high in one should mean super low in another, etc. But thats not the case anymore for at least 3 of the fighter classes......the math of balance has been thrown out the window.The problem is that Great Aggro and Great DPS have become one and the same so now its 2 variables instead of 3.Then someone decided that for some fighter classes the two variables should no longer be balanced against eachother..........hence the tanks that are suppose to be high in the DPS/AGGRO and pay for it by having low surviveability no longer have that penalty because they were given boosts/tricks/tools to boost their survivability beyond where it really should be given their DPS/AGGRO....now they have all the variables in spades. Leaving the tanks like Guardian with just the one variable and still paying the price of the other. That is what seperates the OP from the obsolete.

Wasuna

10-07-2010, 06:16 PM

Shadowknights just passed 6,000 for all servers level 90. Xelgad did listen to the players.

Holyduke1234

10-11-2010, 04:23 PM

So are we done or is this the first change (utility) for Guardians with more changes to come?

Soul_Dreamer

10-12-2010, 06:49 AM

There need to be more changes, while other tanks have the same survivability as us we need to have the same utility/DPS/Hate as they enjoy. Yes a Guardian can stop SOME spike damage, but so can all other tanks and Paladins and Zerkers take LESS sustained damage than a Guardian, and by a decent amount!What would be VERY good is if some other tanks, and a few Guardians could post parses of both instances and raids with them in a tanking role. Parse incomming/outgoing damage zone wide with the name of the zone, Xelgad can see once and for all then what differences are there.We still have 2 abilities that can kill us if used.Sentry watch - Group death save.. IF used and catches an AOE the Guardian will take most of the AOE hit plus his own.Sentinal - Chance to absorb melee damage a group member would have taken. WILL kill if it absorbs a melee AOE.Both need changing:Sentry watch - should be an always on ability similar to bloodletter but for the group, 2 charges, not castable in combat, 2 min recast. Group member dies, they get healed to 50% for 5% HP of every group member.Sentinal - Remove the damage to the Guardian, and have it as a chance to absorb ALL damage, maybe a stoneskin buff of 30% or so.There.. abilities fixed and giving meaningful utility that benefits the group as a whole while not overpowering or adding to the Guardian in any way.Other abilities that need a fix still.Taunting Assault - 2 second cast.. honestly for an ability that does 1k damage and 3k hate.. Reduce it down to the standard 0.5 sec cast time for CA's please.Wrath of Velrak (Myth) - Riposte Imunity.. REMOVE IT and add Hate/DPS in some form (10% of stone skinned damage to hate) lots of ideas have been suggested. Make the damage reduction constant and 10%. It was stated Mythicals where to help in the areas tanks suffer, if you don't think Guardians are suffering in DPS/Hate you're a fool.Slight increases to DPS/Hate.Flurry - Increase it to 10%.Guardians are still not balanced so the changes should NOT be finished!

Landiin

10-12-2010, 02:05 PM

Pretty sure all adjustments are done until the expansion. I expect so see some more changes then to bring us more inline with the other tanks. It might not be done to us directly but I expect things will change.

RafaelSmith

10-12-2010, 03:53 PM

I think in their (SOE) minds...stuff nerfing fighter heal crits and 'fixing' mit increase bug is addressing fighter balance.We are clearly dealing with Devs that either have no clue what is really going on or do and could care less and do the absolute minimum to give the illusion that issues are being addressed.I dont expect next expansion to be any different for Guards or fighter inbalance in general than things are right now..........which i guess is better than it was in TSO so we are not suppose to complain i bet.

DA Gohan

11-16-2010, 06:14 PM

Just thought I'd put my 2 cp in.I've played a guardian since the game came out and I've never been a hardcore raider, life is just too busy to dedicate that much time for playing. The guilds I raid with can tackle all of the easy and medium mode raiding content, and starting on the hard mode. We raid casually, which we've actually gotten pretty good at, while we have half our raid force change every night we raid we still manage to do pretty good.My position can switch from DPS to OT to MT depending on what we have, and while I"m no high DPS by any means, I can still add a little something.I think this gives me a bit of experience to what we lack and are good at, since i don't just MT.Personally I like the recent changes to guardians, yes I was very unhappy with the class in the last expansion, i was practically useless in raids. and even in the heroic content i was being outshined by other equally geared tank classes. I think these changes have helped guardians with the heroic content more than anything else. before I got fully raid geared, I had a lot of trouble keeping aggro from a warlock, or really any class doing mass AE damage. with the enhanced moderate, shoulder the burden, and the new plant that has changed. I may not put the AE DPS that other tanks can, but I have a solid hold on the aggro, which is my job. In this aspect I will say Thank you SOE for helping the lower geared casual guards.As for when I am MT raiding, I don't mind putting out the 10-14k avg DPS on epic x4 mobs. when i am in my offensive gear and duel weilding I can easily hold aggro off an assassin, lock, wizzy, and conjy putting out 40k DPS. Yes i would like higher, but it's enough to do my job.The poblem I still have though is when i have to tank in defensive stance, gear, with a shield. which is generally true for any of the hard content in the higher tier raiding. usually buffs and aggro make up for my severe lack of DPS. but it just isn't enough when i have to put on that shield and defensive gear. That is something that absolutely needs to be fixed. and to be honest increasing hate procs etc. won't fix it. However you look at it Guards absolutely need a huge increase in DPS while wearing a shield. Putting out 5 or 6k DPS while i have said High DPS classes putting out 40k just won't cut it.Once again thank you for the changes to the heroic content tanking abilities, but I think it needs to be extended to the raiding content aswell. I think what has been done is nice, little but nice none the less. But the raiding issues have always been different from the heroic issues. Surviability isn't an issue, it's DPS now that needs an upgrade.p.s. After 2 years of thinking guards would never get any better, I am finally enjoying playing mine again. if nothing else what little has changed has done that for me.

Legion2024

11-17-2010, 11:16 PM

my 2c worth as wellguard on pvp server, idk about other tanks but i have never had a problem holding agro while in instances or raids, as the groups i played with know how to play, even if i do a pug first thing i say is, just because you can pull agro does not mean you should, the extremely good players know how to dps when to dps and know when to slow the dps down with that being said for the tanks having agro issues be vocal and if peeps don't listen /kick and replace or just continue on or my fav thing to do is not pull ago off and let him die and leave him dead. peeps soon learn,granted ago is a funny thing, somehow i think soe did not code the game so tanks can hold agro 100% of the time that would make for a boring game.in well formed groups that play together ago issues are never a issue, granted as stated above stuff happens stun knockback out of range of mobs and agro will bounce around untill the guard is good again, and getting agro back is and has all ways been easy if you have good playeres in your group.another solution is dont party with other tanks lol works like a charm unless raiding and then the tanks should be talking and working together and not against each other,the biggest difference between most other tanks imo is one thing, HEALS, i can avoid mitagate as much as i like but once i get to 5%guards have nothing, most other tanks well we all know what they do HEAL them selves, what i dont get is why a tank can heal, its strange even for crusaders, they should be able to heal others in small heals at that but not heal them selves. a tank is a tank and should need a healer to heal.on top of that coming from a pvp server, tanks fighting tanks is a long fight i can burn most tanks to 5% all my stone skins have proced but once you get other tanks to the red all they do is pop heal and i have to do it all over again, but by that time im allready at 40 to 30% where is the balance...? just from one spell it separates guards from most other tanks, sure yeah i have a full set of pvp gear runes of mending pvp mit etc etc etc, but that is in no way = to a heal or 3 as i said tank on tank fights are long so a few mins pass and booooom another heal, and again and again and again.just my 2c worth

Melendiil

11-30-2010, 08:16 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think in their (SOE) minds...stuff nerfing fighter heal crits and 'fixing' mit increase bug is addressing fighter balance.We are clearly dealing with Devs that either have no clue what is really going on or do and could care less and do the absolute minimum to give the illusion that issues are being addressed.I dont expect next expansion to be any different for Guards or fighter inbalance in general than things are right now..........which i guess is better than it was in TSO so we are not suppose to complain i bet.</blockquote>This. The guard is a bit more fun to play now , but there is absolutely no need for one in a raid still. Im pretty much done with mine now. The timing of stoneskins is fun for a while but, when u see a crusader just dance through the same mob in offensive gear parsing 10k or so more more then my phat arze, and he probably has time to play online poker at the same time... its just a bit too much to take .

Melendiil

11-30-2010, 08:38 PM

<cite>Melendiil wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think in their (SOE) minds...stuff nerfing fighter heal crits and 'fixing' mit increase bug is addressing fighter balance.We are clearly dealing with Devs that either have no clue what is really going on or do and could care less and do the absolute minimum to give the illusion that issues are being addressed.I dont expect next expansion to be any different for Guards or fighter inbalance in general than things are right now..........which i guess is better than it was in TSO so we are not suppose to complain i bet.</blockquote>This. The guard is a bit more fun to play now , but there is absolutely no need for one in a raid still. Im pretty much done with mine now. The timing of stoneskins is fun for a while but, when u see a crusader just dance through the same mob in offensive gear parsing 10k or so more then my phat overloaded with full tank gear arze, and he probably has time to play online poker at the same time... its just a bit too much to take .</blockquote>

Wasuna

12-01-2010, 12:36 PM

They claim to have balanced the fighters but that could not be further from the truth. The population numbers are the only real firm evedence we can point at the here is what they are:Level 90 only, All servers, 12/1/2010Guardian - 2510Berserker - 3843Shadowknight - 6868Paladin - 3828Monk - 2953Brusier - 2894Wonderful job SoE. Thanks for all the fish.

Bruener

12-01-2010, 06:31 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>They claim to have balanced the fighters but that could not be further from the truth. The population numbers are the only real firm evedence we can point at the here is what they are:Level 90 only, All servers, 12/1/2010Guardian - 2510Berserker - 3843Shadowknight - 6868Paladin - 3828Monk - 2953Brusier - 2894Wonderful job SoE. Thanks for all the fish.</blockquote>Sorry guys, you can blame me for this.I mean people see me play my SK and obviously have to roll one. Don't worry got the Zerker maxed now to raise their numbers.....

Rahatmattata

12-05-2010, 01:41 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't worry got the Zerker maxed now to raise their numbers.....</blockquote>Gratz on rolling another powerful easy to play class.

FrostDragon

12-09-2010, 06:53 AM

It started from SOE hitting Guardians with a nerf bat so hard they are still bleeding to death years later. free tower shield and vanguard plates. All mitigation almost halved The howling was so loud SOE locked the forums. For a time avoidance tanks became gods then Crusaders got some WOW cloning love and avoidance got watered. The guardians know better that ask SOE for crumbs because we just get kicked again. I love my guardian but just play him solo mostly for the last 4 years unless someone needs a hand and ask directly. I stick to normal mobs I get 2 master chests a year off non raid content. unless I mentorSOE's pet monk is still not forgiven.Guardian - the trench starts and ends right here!Utility? how about a in combat tuant that summons ranged target to us? like when the finger wiggler is hiding back and jumps the agro (gasp when ever can that happen) and then is out of range while the rest of the pack is on me like they should be. I hate dragging the pack while snared to get into taunt rangeutility? bind wounds on another player out of combatutility? since the crusaders have a bag of spells can we have a ranged attack? debuf effect?if I had to beg for a crumb before the SK and monk kick my face in again I would ask for a reflection ability.

Soul_Dreamer

12-09-2010, 09:49 AM

I want these...40% Melee Damage reduction with a 200% Damage reflection for Melee Damage only. 30 sec duration, 3 min recast.25% Increase to auto attack when I'm wearing a shield.3 proc deathsave which is a 100% Heal each time.They can't be over powered since an SK has all 3 already, although theirs is Magic Damage reflect/reduction.Sarcasm aside.<ul><li>Fix the dam mitigation, I'm fed up with ALL tanks having Guardian level survivability or BETTER and also all their other shiny toys, NO F**KING way should a SK be at mit cap side by side with a Guardian when they offer so much more.</li><li>Fix the STILL BROKEN Guardian abilities. Sentinal, Sentry watch, Iron Will, Mitigation Increasers, no idea why this crap was left broken even with the "Revamp". Iron will is a new ability, how about you actually get the snare reduction working when you give it to us. </li><li>Increase single target DPS when behind a shield.</li><li>Remove the massive restrictions you seem to have placed on the Guardian class, we pay through the nose in EVERY area for our spike damage prevention tools. I don't see where other fighters were adjusted when you gave them their new defensive tools. Exactly what does a Berzerker pay for 50% damage reduction 50% of the time and WALL OF FORCE (their own mini tower of stone?). When they have 100% AOE auto attack, huge AOE DPS, Massive self heals, 25% Inc damage = Hate.</li></ul>