Critical Mit? The end all be all of raiding? [Archive]

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Hirofortis

07-12-2010, 04:12 PM

Ok, we have started moving into the hard mode mobs and now I am hearing crit mit this and crit mit that. And I am looking to find out if this is the end all be all of what the devs are expecting. That you should max your crit mit to counter balance where things are going. With this in mind I compiled the crit mit rating for all the gear from raiding.Critical Mitigation Broken down by Set<table style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, Tahoma, Segoe, sans-serif;" ><tbody><tr><td> </td><td> T1</td><td> T2</td><td> T3</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>Head </td><td> 10.00% </td><td>12.00% </td><td> 15.00% </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>Chest</td><td> 20.00%</td><td>20.00% </td><td> 20.00%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>Shoulders </td><td> 10.00%</td><td>12.00%</td><td> 15.00%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>Forearms </td><td> 5.00%</td><td> 9.60%</td><td> 12.00%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>Hands </td><td> 5.00%</td><td> 9.60%</td><td> 12.00%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>Legs </td><td> 20.00%</td><td> 20.00%</td><td> 20.00%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td>Feet </td><td> 5.00%</td><td> 9.60%</td><td> 12.00%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> Sum</td><td> 75.00%</td><td> 92.80%</td><td> 106.00%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> Max from Gear and Adorns</td><td> 110.00%</td><td> 127.80%</td><td> 141.00%</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> Max with Gear and Stats</td><td> 120.00%</td><td> 137.80%</td><td> 151.00%</td><td> </td></tr></tbody></table>Options to Increase Critical Mitigation (Red Adorns)<table style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, Tahoma, Segoe, sans-serif;" ><tbody><tr><td>Head </td><td> 5%</td></tr><tr><td>Chest </td><td> 5%</td></tr><tr><td>Gloves</td><td> 5%</td></tr><tr><td>Boots </td><td> 5%</td></tr><tr><td>Shoulders </td><td> 5%</td></tr><tr><td>Bracers </td><td> 5%</td></tr><tr><td>Leg </td><td> 5%</td></tr><tr><td>Tot Crit Mit </td><td> 35%</td></tr></tbody></table>Approx Int/Agi 1% per 100 At T2 level it is possible to reach the 125% theoretically. In order to do this however you would need to get either your int or agi up to 1000, depending on your class and have at least 6 of your red adornments as critical mit. If we were completly in T3 gear we could get away with only 2 red adorns being crit mit and still hit the 125% mark. Theoretically I know this is all possible, but I have not found anyone that is taking down hard mode mobs that says you have to be at 125% or higher to take them down. I know it will help, but my question is, Will it help more than it will hurt. Generally, if people will joust properly, only go in when they are healed, cure themselves if they get out of range of the healers and in general play there toon smart, The theoretical max should not be needed. Unless of course you are the main tank and then since you are staying in the whole time, this may be a logical option to remove your abilities for greater survivability.I would love to hear everyones thoughts on this especially if a dev would chime in.

Gaige

07-12-2010, 04:19 PM

Hardmodes died just fine before they uncapped crit mit so no reason to assume you need 125%. I have 116% in raids and hardly ever joust as an assassin.

Barx

07-12-2010, 05:01 PM

Yeah, only on the very hardest of HM would you really need all that crit mit; I strongly doubt most of the beginning HM encounters (twins, sages, toxx, etc.) would have anywhere close to that much crit bonus.

LardLord

07-12-2010, 05:04 PM

If a mob has a crit multiplier of 120, then you only need 120 crit mit to completely negate its crits. There are debuffs that can lower the mob's crit bonus (Predator and SK AAs each can give a crit bonus debuff, and I think there are others but can't remember off hand), which mean you need even less crit mit when those debuffs are active.Also, note that there are healer item procs that give 5-7 crit mit to the group that can be maintained pretty much 100% of the time. Anyway, moral of the story is that you want maybe 80-100 crit mit to feel safe against the basic hard modes (I believe Theer crits higher, and I don't know about the Underfoot Depths hard modes), so hopefully you don't need to spend red adornment slots on crit mit. If you're really concerned about 1-shots, I think you're going to be better off taking the 10% max health adornment (if your class has that option) than 5 crit mit.

CoLD MeTaL

07-12-2010, 05:06 PM

I think it's more like without 70% (or other arbitrary %) you are worthless to a raid, but its extremely difficult to hit that % without 'raiding'.So you can't raid without crit mit, but can't get crit mit without raiding.Of course I still haven't found the yellow adorn merchant (haven't spent much time lookin to be honest), but then again don't have many marks anyway.Yes there are some 'very expensive'/difficult ways to get that low stepping stone into raiding.

SageGaspar

07-12-2010, 05:11 PM

It's like anything else, if you're getting reamed by AEs that are critting then you can trade off a bit of DPS for survivability. You have to decide if it's worth that to you. It's not strictly required in any encounter, but it can be helpful. The crit mit adorns are mostly useful as a gap bridger if you're hitting content above your gear level.

LardLord

07-12-2010, 05:11 PM

<cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it's more like without 70% (or other arbitrary %) you are worthless to a raid, but its extremely difficult to hit that % without 'raiding'.So you can't raid without crit mit, but can't get crit mit without raiding.Of course I still haven't found the yellow adorn merchant (haven't spent much time lookin to be honest), but then again don't have many marks anyway.Yes there are some 'very expensive'/difficult ways to get that low stepping stone into raiding. </blockquote>I know you're just trolling, but, for anyone interested in getting into raiding, you can get crit mit by raiding ez-mode SF content (or even TSO content), where you don't need high crit mit. Only the hard modes have high crit multipliers.

Dasein

07-12-2010, 05:13 PM

<cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it's more like without 70% (or other arbitrary %) you are worthless to a raid, but its extremely difficult to hit that % without 'raiding'.So you can't raid without crit mit, but can't get crit mit without raiding.Of course I still haven't found the yellow adorn merchant (haven't spent much time lookin to be honest), but then again don't have many marks anyway.Yes there are some 'very expensive'/difficult ways to get that low stepping stone into raiding. </blockquote>This simply isn't true. You can clear Lair on easy mode, and most of the entry encounters in Labs and Palace with minimal crit-mit (ie, what you might get from WOE and resist jewlery). These fights will get you 4-5 pieces of T1 SF raid armor, some of which can be upgraded to T2 via Marks. That will be more than enough crit-mit to continue with SF raids.

Yimway

07-12-2010, 05:29 PM

The numbers seem to point to most of these mobs not having over ~125 CB, with wearing more than ~120 CM not affecting incomming damage.Depending on how you approach the content and the capability of your raiders, you can set your CM goals accordingly.

CoLD MeTaL

07-12-2010, 05:31 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it's more like without 70% (or other arbitrary %) you are worthless to a raid, but its extremely difficult to hit that % without 'raiding'.So you can't raid without crit mit, but can't get crit mit without raiding.Of course I still haven't found the yellow adorn merchant (haven't spent much time lookin to be honest), but then again don't have many marks anyway.Yes there are some 'very expensive'/difficult ways to get that low stepping stone into raiding. </blockquote>This simply isn't true. You can clear Lair on easy mode, and most of the entry encounters in Labs and Palace with minimal crit-mit (ie, what you might get from WOE and resist jewlery). These fights will get you 4-5 pieces of T1 SF raid armor, some of which can be upgraded to T2 via Marks. That will be more than enough crit-mit to continue with SF raids.</blockquote>That's if a raid force is going to gear up 1 additional person (usually someones rl buddy). It doesn't match what happens to the 'raid app' if he is allowed to go on any normal raids at all, or the grouper who is trying to get enough to get accepted for the 'app' slot.

Barx

07-12-2010, 05:33 PM

<cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it's more like without 70% (or other arbitrary %) you are worthless to a raid, but its extremely difficult to hit that % without 'raiding'.So you can't raid without crit mit, but can't get crit mit without raiding.Of course I still haven't found the yellow adorn merchant (haven't spent much time lookin to be honest), but then again don't have many marks anyway.Yes there are some 'very expensive'/difficult ways to get that low stepping stone into raiding. </blockquote>This simply isn't true. You can clear Lair on easy mode, and most of the entry encounters in Labs and Palace with minimal crit-mit (ie, what you might get from WOE and resist jewlery). These fights will get you 4-5 pieces of T1 SF raid armor, some of which can be upgraded to T2 via Marks. That will be more than enough crit-mit to continue with SF raids.</blockquote>That's if a raid force is going to gear up 1 additional person (usually someones rl buddy). It doesn't match what happens to the 'raid app' if he is allowed to go on any normal raids at all, or the grouper who is trying to get enough to get accepted for the 'app' slot.</blockquote>That depends on what kind of raid force you're talking about. Sure, a highest-end one might want people with a good bit of T9 raid gear already, but so what, that's to be expected. There's a huge number of lower- and mid-range raiding guilds that can take people and gear them up. You can get a hefty bit of crit mit and such from T1 gear alone, which is likely to be mute-fodder for guilds in HM-territory (ditto for some of the T2).Saying you have to raid to raid is half the sentence: you have to raid the low end if you want to raid the high end is the full story and makes perfect sense.

CoLD MeTaL

07-12-2010, 05:58 PM

<cite>Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>That depends on what kind of raid force you're talking about. Sure, a highest-end one might want people with a good bit of T9 raid gear already, but so what, that's to be expected. There's a huge number of lower- and mid-range raiding guilds that can take people and gear them up. You can get a hefty bit of crit mit and such from T1 gear alone, which is likely to be mute-fodder for guilds in HM-territory (ditto for some of the T2).Saying you have to raid to raid is half the sentence: you have to raid the low end if you want to raid the high end is the full story and makes perfect sense.</blockquote>If there were a T9 WOE equivalent, I would agree with you.

Hirofortis

07-12-2010, 06:05 PM

t9 woe equivelant is icy keep I thought.

Skywarrior

07-12-2010, 06:27 PM

You don't need any T9 gear at all to start raiding in SF. My first SF raids as OT (soon after launch) was in level 80 T3 WOE gear, with some T2 only shard armor. It certainly helps to have a raid force that is at least T8 raid geared to start into the first SF raids but it is doable without and certainly individuals within the raid force can get away with less than stellar gear to start off.

CoLD MeTaL

07-12-2010, 06:31 PM

<cite>Hirofortis@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>t9 woe equivelant is icy keep I thought.</blockquote>Maybe I haven't been in there yet. No one ever seems to be looking for people to do that zone. /shrug

circusgirl

07-12-2010, 07:12 PM

Icy Keep can be pick-up-raided, and on AB at least I have seen that occur. Its just harder to organize than WoE since it needs 4 groups instead of 2.

Laenai

07-12-2010, 07:23 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>WoE can be pick-up-raided, and on AB at least I have seen that occur. Its just harder to organize than WoE since it needs 4 groups instead of 2.</blockquote> Heck, lots of WoEs can be one grouped.When I changed mains and PLed my defiler to raid SF content, we spent a good amount of time in WoEs farming the old T3 stuff for crit mit gear.

Malacha

07-12-2010, 07:44 PM

WOE gets pick up raided almost weekly here on Unrest. I went with my troub when she got to 90 just so I could get her some crit mit. Sure, most of the bonuses are moot at this point, but having an easy way to grab up some crit mit makes the zone worth doing.

Pervis

07-13-2010, 09:10 AM

<cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's if a raid force is going to gear up 1 additional person (usually someones rl buddy). It doesn't match what happens to the 'raid app' if he is allowed to go on any normal raids at all, or the grouper who is trying to get enough to get accepted for the 'app' slot.</blockquote>Gear is easy to get.Most raids, when recruiting a new player, will look at the gear they are wearing. First of all they will decide if that person cares about hteir character (ie, are there upgrades for you on the broker). If your gear is at a reasonable standard for the content you play, they will likely give you a trial. That trial is not to see how you compare to their fully decked out member of your class, but to see how you perform in reguards to teh gear you have.If they are impressed with how you perform with your gear (ie, you out perform it), then they will likely give you a spot in the raid. From there, its only a matter of days before you get enough upgrades to start taking on hardmode mobs.I started this game up again a month or so ago, after having been gone for 3 or 4 months. I leveled to 90, then app'd to a guild. They gave me a trial run and liked the fact that I knew what I was doing. Even though I was not in the top 6 DPS, as a wizard, they could see I knew how to behave in a raid, what I need to bring, where I need to stand. They gave me a spot, and within a week I had 6 or 7 items, including a few T2 armor pieces.If your trying to app to NPU, DA, Exordium, Shoukin et al, then yeah, you need the gear as well. These guilds will look at what the character is able to do today, not what they think you are able to do tomorrow. If you are going to app to almost any other guild, they look at the player, and try to figure out how good they will be with the gear tehy have access to.

circusgirl

07-13-2010, 11:30 AM

Ooooops. Meant to say Icy Keep, not WoE!

Hirofortis

07-13-2010, 11:33 AM

Thats because although the zone is cool, it is largely a waste of time. The gear is just under t1 regular raid gear. The quests require 2-3 or more trips though there to complete. The updates are stupidly long to get and the final result is not that great. Why sepnd 2 hours doin this zone when you can get better stuff, faster in other zones. That is basically why no one does icy keep. Great place for starter raiders that have nothing I guess.

Yimway

07-13-2010, 11:39 AM

<cite>Hirofortis@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Great place for starter raiders that have nothing I guess.</blockquote>Not really, the first few named in the other raid zones are easier and have better rewards.If a guild was truely just starting raiding I would:1) Run WoEs2) Run TSO to get flawless Charm3) Run MMB for the good proc gear4) Run SF Easy mobs till everyone can field ~100 CM, as casuals your going to need as much as you can get to try harder stuff.I would infact skip Icy Keep entirely, as the above list will gear out raids faster and have better rewards.

Banditman

07-13-2010, 11:54 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hirofortis@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Great place for starter raiders that have nothing I guess.</blockquote>Not really, the first few named in the other raid zones are easier and have better rewards.If a guild was truely just starting raiding I would:1) Run WoEs2) Run TSO to get flawless Charm3) Run MMB for the good proc gear4) Run SF Easy mobs till everyone can field ~100 CM, as casuals your going to need as much as you can get to try harder stuff.I would infact skip Icy Keep entirely, as the above list will gear out raids faster and have better rewards.</blockquote>While I agree that there are other places that offer better rewards, if you truly are a beginning raid force, Icy Keep has value.WoE is completely without merit at this point, unless you are so undermanned that you cannot field a full x4 raid. Yes, there is crit mit on the gear, but the other mitigation is so low, and level 80 on top, you are franky better off wearing something from current tier heroic content.The TSO flawless charm is "nice", but it isn't a game changer. If you can run TSO flawlessly, you don't need the charm. If you cannot run TSO flawlessly, you cannot get the charm.MMB is a decent run, and everything up to and including Gozak should be easily do-able by a beginning raid force, but by the same token, why not run Shard of Hate as well? That's what MMB, in theory, upgraded.SF easy mode is a good run every three days. Well worth doing. There are 15 chests or so every three days from easy mode SF.However, if you are still needing content, IK does offer a good number of chests, and for a beginning raid force with only heroic gear, upgrades.The key to running IK is to absolutely ignore all the quests. If you do that, you can fly thru the zone. What makes IK take FOR FREAKING EVER is the absolute cluster(*@$ that quests in there are.

Yimway

07-13-2010, 12:15 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote> Yes, there is crit mit on the gear, but the other mitigation is so low, and level 80 on top, you are franky better off wearing something from current tier heroic content.</blockquote>You should try that against a mob that actually crits.The 60-70 CM from WoE is a more effective starter and faster to obtain than legendary sets in t9, at least in terms of the easy raid mobs you'll quickly replace most of it with.The flawless charm for the healers, is still very much worth the time doing, not to mention the still hard to replace specialized proc gear that will be obtained. The dps charms are also good and will last a while for casuals. All of which help you more in t9 raiding than anything casuals are pulling out of IK.As far as the difficulty of TSO flawless, at level 90, its really not that hard and is better practice for raiding skill building than IK.The only way IK would add any value is if it dropped 2 leg patterns per run, since legs are stupid rare in t9. I think we've seen leather fighter legs now 3 times in a row?

circusgirl

07-13-2010, 12:24 PM

<cite>Hirofortis@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats because although the zone is cool, it is largely a waste of time. The gear is just under t1 regular raid gear. The quests require 2-3 or more trips though there to complete. The updates are stupidly long to get and the final result is not that great. Why sepnd 2 hours doin this zone when you can get better stuff, faster in other zones. That is basically why no one does icy keep. Great place for starter raiders that have nothing I guess.</blockquote>The gear may only be T1 quality, but here's the thing--it has red slots on it, and seals to fill them with nice adorns.You're not gonna get that from WoE gear. Red slots are huge! And most pugs aren't going to be able to take down even the easymode sages, and fights like Maalus will be a wipe if a single person doesn't pay attention.

Barx

07-13-2010, 12:35 PM

Eh for a guild looking to break into SF raiding, I'd recommend trying easier SF stuff (first two and maybe vuulan in Lair, first and maybe second mob in palace, first couple mobs in Labs). You can go in there and survive against the first mobs with T9 legendary gear, and then as you start getting pieces from there you can work deeper.To fill the rest of the time, you could do a run through icy keep to get a few more T1-level pieces with red slots to gear up faster, plus some TSO content (MMB still has good items, Zarrakon still has some decent items). But I strongly doubt people that are just gearing up to raid in SF are going to be getting TSO flawless charms without a pretty good bit of learning the fights, which might be using time better spent doing SF raids.

Yimway

07-13-2010, 12:42 PM

<cite>Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>But I strongly doubt people that are just gearing up to raid in SF are going to be getting TSO flawless charms without a pretty good bit of learning the fights, which might be using time better spent doing SF raids.</blockquote>I would have thought the same if I hadn't recently done this to help people get the flawless rewards.Most of the fights little to know description was needed. I had to pause and explain Anashti and Ykesha in detail, some simple instructions on a few others, but mobs like Tyrranous and Tythus, etc, can just be killed with brute force and ignorance as the ae's don't hit for anything much more than noise at level 90.They have to work on dealing with curses, and paying attention, but thats a universal raid requirement imo.I honestly don't think any of the tso flawless fights at level 90 were more difficult than odoufe or ice maiden, and thats having done both in recent weeks with players who had never pulled any of it.

Barx

07-13-2010, 12:46 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>But I strongly doubt people that are just gearing up to raid in SF are going to be getting TSO flawless charms without a pretty good bit of learning the fights, which might be using time better spent doing SF raids.</blockquote>I would have thought the same if I hadn't recently done this to help people get the flawless rewards.Most of the fights little to know description was needed. I had to pause and explain Anashti and Ykesha in detail, some simple instructions on a few others, but mobs like Tyrranous and Tythus, etc, can just be killed with brute force and ignorance as the ae's don't hit for anything much more than noise at level 90.They have to work on dealing with curses, and paying attention, but thats a universal raid requirement imo.I honestly don't think any of the tso flawless fights at level 90 were more difficult than odoufe or ice maiden, and thats having done both in recent weeks with players who had never pulled any of it.</blockquote>That's somewhat surprising, I guess that stuff has become a lot more trivial than I realized with T9 statflation. Though it definately shouldn't be too hard as long as everyone listens, it's getting everyone to listen that could be the issue for some folks not used to raiding.

Yimway

07-13-2010, 12:55 PM

<cite>Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>That's somewhat surprising, I guess that stuff has become a lot more trivial than I realized with T9 statflation. Though it definately shouldn't be too hard as long as everyone listens, it's getting everyone to listen that could be the issue for some folks not used to raiding.</blockquote>Yeah, I honestly think getting the pre-req item off Varsoon might be harder than killing pentaclypse now.Doing the quest for the item to freeze the twins will take far longer than learning to killing them. Xebnok's trauma aoe can be ignored, etc.Maybe I'm underestimating slightly due to using tools like Guild Connect while bringing new people thru this stuff, but again, I would urge any new raiding guild to also utilize these types of tools.

Alfeo

07-13-2010, 01:54 PM

Yeah, the level difference is pretty significant, TSO content is pretty much a joke now and I'd definitely take advantage of that if I was in a fresh guild trying to build up a new or mostly new raid force. Lair, first mobs in Lab (probably through Sara) and buldoral will also likely be in reach even with zero crit mit. Legendary gear, vig x2 gear (either pug or as a guild if you can handle the dogs) and even some of the better PvP pieces can also supplement your raid force til you get more raid pieces. As far as WoE goes, I'd say only do that zone til you have enough clickies to kill Gozak then just do MMB instead. As far as Icy goes, I'd list it as absolute last priority. It might be okay for seal farming but you'll get better drops from other zones and I'd think TSO flawless stuff would be better practice.Cold Metal:Gear is almost irrelevant when you apply to a guild that kills hard modes. It is so [Removed for Content] easy to gear people up right now with each hard mode mob dropping 3 pieces of T3. The only aspect of gear that truly matters is what people can infer about you as a player by what you are using . Are you making the best choices for the content you have access to? Do your adorns (AAs too) make sense? Do you know what stats you need to focus on and which stats to ignore? Do you have any initative to improve your character without being prodded to do so? etc.Basically, If you demonstrate a good working knowledge of your class, and show that you can follow directions and also have good attendence with raids then you are set. I guarentee, especially in the summer when guilds in general are pretty pressed, if you meet the above criteria you can get into almost any guild that has an opening for your class, even if you are undergeared for their progression.

Aurorrae

07-13-2010, 02:36 PM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote>WOE gets pick up raided almost weekly here on Unrest. I went with my troub when she got to 90 just so I could get her some crit mit. Sure, most of the bonuses are moot at this point, but having an easy way to grab up some crit mit makes the zone worth doing.</blockquote>Oh please help us spread the word! We've been trying to help some folks out and do some pick up/open group raids. We've found that people have gotten rid of WOE and TSO shard gear in favor of .. wait for it... 82 MC and legendary gear... or even worse... BG gear <wince>. We try to tell these folks that they are going to get eaten alive with 10%-15% crit mit... But its level 90! Our dps will take a hit against level 90+ mobs. At which point one needs to explain that dead dps = no dps. /sigh

LardLord

07-13-2010, 04:30 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>1) Run WoEs2) Run TSO to get flawless Charm3) Run MMB for the good proc gear4) Run SF Easy mobs till everyone can field ~100 CM, as casuals your going to need as much as you can get to try harder stuff.</blockquote>Aside from a single piece from Gozak, the good items from MMB are from Munzok, which is probably harder than nearly all of the easy mode SF mobs. While I'm not a fan of the easy/hard mode stuff, the benefit is that there's a ton of really easy content that works great for people starting out. While WoE and old-expansion content was very helpful to guilds starting TSO, since the learning curve (and gear check) was pretty steep after the first mob or two, the SF ez-mode content does such a good job of easing raids into the expansion that I'd be surprised if many raids even needed steps 1-3.I'm honestly not sure how difficult casual/beginning guilds are finding the Vigilant x2 since the nerfs and such, but that could be yet another option to help gear up for the more difficult SF x4 content.With all of that easy content, it's surprising that they decided to add even more easy stuff with Icy Keep, and I can see why few guilds make time for it in their regular schedule.

Yimway

07-13-2010, 04:55 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aside from a single piece from Gozak, the good items from MMB are from Munzok, which is probably harder than nearly all of the easy mode SF mobs. While I'm not a fan of the easy/hard mode stuff, the benefit is that there's a ton of really easy content that works great for people starting out. While WoE and old-expansion content was very helpful to guilds starting TSO, since the learning curve (and gear check) was pretty steep after the first mob or two, the SF ez-mode content does such a good job of easing raids into the expansion that I'd be surprised if many raids even needed steps 1-3.</blockquote>We kill Munzok about 1/wk still for drops, and he isn't that tough at 90, yes tougher than some easy mobs for sure, but its not that bad.To your second point, I suspect you've really not tried any of those mobs on alts that didn't have some raid gear from last expac. Even toxx easy will one shot people in less than 20 CM. You do need to get a baseline 40-50 CM from somewhere, and considering WoE is one groupable, and it has set bonuses that don't suck, its a very fast method of picking some up.I'm confident it is possible to kill all the easy mode content wearing just woe gear, I'm less confident in doing it in 90 legendary, but to be honest, I've never taken the time to gear a toon out in all t9 legendary as t8 raid set bonuses were better for me to hold on to till I replaced them with red adorns.Following the zones I recommended, a new raid force working 2-3 days / week I think could clear all easy content in less than a couple months. My point was the nice proc items in TSO and t4 TSO gear is a better use of your time than IK t.5 gear. Particularly when you talk about Zara belts, Mynzak wrists, etc. Those 'SoH drops' as someone else put it will pay off much longer than grinding IK for subpar gear.

Malacha

07-13-2010, 05:34 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aside from a single piece from Gozak, the good items from MMB are from Munzok, which is probably harder than nearly all of the easy mode SF mobs. While I'm not a fan of the easy/hard mode stuff, the benefit is that there's a ton of really easy content that works great for people starting out. While WoE and old-expansion content was very helpful to guilds starting TSO, since the learning curve (and gear check) was pretty steep after the first mob or two, the SF ez-mode content does such a good job of easing raids into the expansion that I'd be surprised if many raids even needed steps 1-3.</blockquote>We kill Munzok about 1/wk still for drops, and he isn't that tough at 90, yes tougher than some easy mobs for sure, but its not that bad.To your second point, I suspect you've really not tried any of those mobs on alts that didn't have some raid gear from last expac. Even toxx easy will one shot people in less than 20 CM. You do need to get a baseline 40-50 CM from somewhere, and considering WoE is one groupable, and it has set bonuses that don't suck, its a very fast method of picking some up.I'm confident it is possible to kill all the easy mode content wearing just woe gear, I'm less confident in doing it in 90 legendary, but to be honest, I've never taken the time to gear a toon out in all t9 legendary as t8 raid set bonuses were better for me to hold on to till I replaced them with red adorns.Following the zones I recommended, a new raid force working 2-3 days / week I think could clear all easy content in less than a couple months. My point was the nice proc items in TSO and t4 TSO gear is a better use of your time than IK t.5 gear. Particularly when you talk about Zara belts, Mynzak wrists, etc. Those 'SoH drops' as someone else put it will pay off much longer than grinding IK for subpar gear.</blockquote>I agree with Atan. I've been lucky enough to be able to tag along on some of his raids with my troub alt, and while she had close to 50% crit mit when I started going with them, I still got smeared on certain fights in T9 (most notably the Seer in Palace). Now I have picked up some TSO T4 pieces to fill in the hole where I had just used T9 legendary, and my survivability is much higher.

Alfeo

07-13-2010, 06:14 PM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with Atan. I've been lucky enough to be able to tag along on some of his raids with my troub alt, and while she had close to 50% crit mit when I started going with them, I still got smeared on certain fights in T9 (most notably the Seer in Palace). Now I have picked up some TSO T4 pieces to fill in the hole where I had just used T9 legendary, and my survivability is much higher.</blockquote>I don't know if Azara is a fair comparison. A lot of people make that fight way more difficult than it has to be which might make the fight seem like it requires more crit mit than it does. If you don't know what I mean, give Azara a pull but tell your healers not to cure any arcanes and compare the damage you take then compared to trying to cure them. The devs were a little tricksy with this mob =P

Jrral

07-13-2010, 07:04 PM

<cite>Alfeo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know if Azara is a fair comparison. A lot of people make that fight way more difficult than it has to be which might make the fight seem like it requires more crit mit than it does. If you don't know what I mean, give Azara a pull but tell your healers not to cure any arcanes and compare the damage you take then compared to trying to cure them. The devs were a little tricksy with this mob =P</blockquote>No more tricksy than with the Doomsmith in Deep Forge. And we had to explain to a raid healer there about the hammers and not curing that arcane. That kind of thing is Kander's trademark.