Questions, concerns, or comments about the Top End Guild DPS Parses thread?

[slippery]

I worry about the direction of this thread. I appreciate the goal of trying to better balance classes, but I'm not really sure this is going to remotely accomplish this. Quite frankly, even looking at these parses their is such a massive amount of unknown information that makes all of this information completely useless. Because a group is set up a certain way doesn't even begin to show what a person is getting from it. So much depends not just on the gear of the individual player, but the spec's and gear of the players in their group. Just because on person might be geared to the teeth does not speak to the people around them who might be app's, or people around them who might not be doing the right things to maximize that of others. Not to mention one off things like miracles, or what temp buffs might necessarily not have been up, or what things just happen to be flukes of this will probably never happen again. Not to mention the unknown of who got cursed and how long it was on them. Also consider certain issues that might be looked at as class balance issues are going to result from certain itemization choices (or game mechanic choices where things don't impact all classes equally which is a serious problem). There are certain itemization and game mechanic problems that really need to be worked out before class balance gets directly addressed. I'll try to make a more detailed post of where I think your balance problems lie at some point in the near future.

[zorkan]

<p>I guess if you only take the numbers from comparable guilds (progress-wise and hence presumably gear-wise), you can make some modest conclusions from the parses. But generally I agree with the previous poster.</p><p>Go get them to kill a mob in master crafted gear only. It would also be fun to see those parses for us (would make for a good whip for raid leaders <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).</p>

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<p>Have to agree with Slippery on this one.. Parses are usually just good for boasting purposes.. Unless u break down the data very detailed..</p><p>Name-class-dps and group setup wont tell u much.. Unless of course your not using this info for the purpose of class balance, but for some other evil thing.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[slippery]

Yea, if you are using this information as a measure of how much hp mobs should have for example, then please do. Get as much information as you can and use it. Get more information from different encounters to see what raids are parsing under adversity with all the effects in certain encounters. This information is very useful as a whole, but not useful at all in comparing classes. I can make any class parse high in a raid, but generally it is just shifting dps from one place to another while not impacting the raid dps as a whole.

[steelbadger]

<p><cite>slippery wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Yea, if you are using this information as a measure of how much hp mobs should have for example, then please do. Get as much information as you can and use it. Get more information from different encounters to see what raids are parsing under adversity with all the effects in certain encounters. This information is very useful as a whole, but not useful at all in comparing classes. I can make any class parse high in a raid, but generally it is just shifting dps from one place to another while not impacting the raid dps as a whole.</blockquote><p>Werl, from the parses you can see that not one of the guilds thus far uses a Guardian <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I was going to say ranger too, but ED has one that seems to do a pretty decent job.  And only one each so far of Monk/Bruiser.</p><p>I was under the impression that SOE had the ability to access all the logs that we generate, I'm sure one of the previous mechanics devs talked about the tools they had at their disposal to check up on the DPS ranges that each class could achieve at pretty much ever level of the game.</p><p>So I dunno why, exactly, they'd want this info.  But with enough of it you can do some statistical analysis and see some general trends, at least.</p>

[slippery]

I'm going out on a limb here and making some assumptions based on the information available to me. Xelgad's intent upon making this thread was to find out how classes are parsing against/relative to each other. I've illustrated above why I believe this is a faulty way to go about it, because there are still far too many unknowns (the fact that this and many other fights are so dependent on curse cures severely slants raids/dps in favor of the guilds with more templars btw). I believe his intent was based on trying to eliminate some of those variables. While he can get all the parses he wants from the server side the information comes from a vacuum and is meaningless. So, realizing and understanding that, he tried to account for some more variables (raid dps, group make up). Unfortunately, with so much more information still missing it really doesn't help. This is something that really has to hashed out in detail and solved piece by piece. Extensive overhauls don't solve minor balance issues, they create loads more. It is something that there really needs to be a focus group on that can have a good pointed discussion addressing all angles one at a time. I feel really bad for Xelgad, because it is far too much for one person, especially if you don't have really extensive top end raid experience to see how the different nuances and changes have effected things over time. I feel even worse for him for the fact that a lot of the issues aren't necessarily based on the class but on itemization and how certain mechanics work.

[Leovinus]

<p>I'd also be interested to know what he means by "top-end" in relation to this thread.  Anyone who can actually kill Rathgar?  Or (more likely) one that kills, say, 5 of the original 7 Challenge Modes with regularity?</p>

[Bruener]

<p>Well it is interesting to see how the numbers are playing out for other guilds, and is probably really the intent of the thread.  Most likely it is just to show the player base what SOE already knows with their parses...</p><p>For example people talking about Crusaders doing top DPS have no real basis at all based on how low the Crusaders are parsing throughout the thread.  Also I see some good parses with Necros and Rangers up at the top.  Things look good at the top end as suspected......so how do you balance that at the heroic level?</p>

[Encantador]

<p>I dislike the choice of fight. Most of peoples concerns would be taken care of by 'averaging out' over enough parses. However this particular fight will always show at least 2 tanks with way less DPS than is normal for them. Further it would not surprise me if several guilds left the scouts on the named and only had the ranged DPS switch to the adds.</p><p>A better choice might be Vaclaz or perhaps Waansu. Where only the OT(s) would be parsing too low.</p>

[Encantador]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well it is interesting to see how the numbers are playing out for other guilds, and is probably really the intent of the thread.  Most likely it is just to show the player base what SOE already knows with their parses...</p><p>For example people talking about Crusaders doing top DPS have no real basis at all based on how low the Crusaders are parsing throughout the thread.  Also I see some good parses with Necros and Rangers up at the top.  Things look good at the top end as suspected......so how do you balance that at the heroic level?</p></blockquote><p>The above was posted as I was typing my first reply.</p><p>I presume Bruener has never been in this fight. What the parses are showing is that crusaders are dominating the tanking for top end guilds and even eating regular DTs are doing decent DPS.</p>

[Boise]

<p>It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing.</p>

[AziBam]

<p><cite>Boise wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing.</p></blockquote><p>Interesting how people can look at the same thing and reach such different conclusions.  I'd read it exactly the opposite.  I see that raids are taking only one predator per raid.  I see both rangers and assassins from number one to number three on their respective parses.  None of these raids listed so far has both predators on them.  Same for wizards and warlocks in terms of their relative dps.</p>

[Nevao]

<p><cite>slippery wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I worry about the direction of this thread. <span style="color: #ff0000;">I appreciate the goal of trying to better balance classes</span>, but I'm not really sure this is going to remotely accomplish this. </blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Is that what this is for? At this point we have no indication what is trying to be determined by posting these parses. It could just as easily be mob tweaks. That said if it is for class balance I find it a bit confusing that Xelgad has all the parses he needs to prove rangers are fine and do not need any significant change yet he then turns around the next day and starts asking for parses for specific mobs (with more requests to follow). I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, that ship has sailed, but it does lead to a very mixed message to the player base. A proper explanation of what he's trying to accomplish would be nice to have and might help him get more results.</span></p>

[Putyo]

<p>Rangers cap out at about 50k give or take, there is basically no way to push that higher whatsoever unless it is an aoe encounter.</p><p>Assassins and wizards both GIVE something to the group and can blow 50k dps out of the water. I regret posting parses because some idiot will think we are "a mighty force"</p><p>It is true many small things can change your parse but hopefully with enough parses Xelgad can average them together and get a general idea. Any changes based on these parses is a bad idea though.</p>

[Ragefighter87]

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Calling all high end raiders!</p><p>This thread is dedicated to you guys posting your best DPS parses on <span style="font-size: large; color: #993300;">specific mobs.</span> Right now, we're looking for parses on <strong>Rathgar</strong> kills from the Underfoot Depths. We're looking for <span style="color: #993300;"><strong>raid</strong> parses</span>, not the<span style="color: #993300;"> individual</span>, so please include the classes of the players in your parse, and, if possible, the raid setup.</p><p>Soon, we'll ask for <span style="font-size: large; color: #993300;">different mobs.</span></p><p>Show me the money, guys!</p></blockquote><p>My guess is that they are doing this to balance the mob. Rathgar is probably harder than some of the hard mode mobs, since either you have the dps to beat it, or you don't. And the loot is relatively weak. Instead of wasting time to search through the huge database, he can probably pinpoint the time/date/server from some of the parses and logs.</p>

[Gaige]

<p>After the nerf Rathgar is easy.  Nerfed HP and he death touches less often.</p>

[Striikor]

<p>This is not about balance at all, attempts to derail it to balance issues are wasted. This is about mob adjustment. There are no balance issues, everything is fine. That has been clearly stated by representatives of SOE.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Striikor@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This is not about balance at all, attempts to derail it to balance issues are wasted. This is about mob adjustment. There are no balance issues, everything is fine. That has been clearly stated by representatives of SOE.</p></blockquote><p>Yea all classes are balanced alright! Hey wait, I didn't see a warrior in any of the posted parses... *GASP*</p>

[slippery]

To all the people saying it is easy to divine that this isn't about class balance, then why would he need to know what the raid set up is? If it isn't about class balance the only number he needs is actual raid dps, the rest doesn't matter.

[AziBam]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Striikor@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This is not about balance at all, attempts to derail it to balance issues are wasted. This is about mob adjustment. There are no balance issues, everything is fine. That has been clearly stated by representatives of SOE.</p></blockquote><p>Yea all classes are balanced alright! Hey wait, I didn't see a warrior in any of the posted parses... *GASP*</p></blockquote><p>I THINK Striikor was being sarcastic about class balance.  That said, you need to look more closely.  There are warriors in a number of them.  I don't see any guards though.  I believe that is really what you are driving at anyway.</p>

[Undorett]

<p>What do you hope to gain from these parses, and who do you consider "Top End"?</p>

[Boise]

<p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Boise wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing.</p></blockquote><p>Interesting how people can look at the same thing and reach such different conclusions.  I'd read it exactly the opposite.  I see that raids are taking only one predator per raid.  I see both rangers and assassins from number one to number three on their respective parses.  <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">None of these raids listed so far has both predators on them</span></strong>.  Same for wizards and warlocks in terms of their relative dps.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly. Why have a ranger in a raid that might do 47-50k dps on rathgar when an assassin can easily do 65-70k dps?</p><p>My point is pretty simple. Figures do not lie. 47k or 65k?  <----Thats a pretty large gap in dps between 2 "supposedly" tier 1 classes.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Boise wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Boise wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing.</p></blockquote><p>Interesting how people can look at the same thing and reach such different conclusions.  I'd read it exactly the opposite.  I see that raids are taking only one predator per raid.  I see both rangers and assassins from number one to number three on their respective parses.  <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">None of these raids listed so far has both predators on them</span></strong>.  Same for wizards and warlocks in terms of their relative dps.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly. Why have a ranger in a raid that might do 47-50k dps on rathgar when an assassin can easily do 65-70k dps?</p><p>My point is pretty simple. Figures do not lie. 47k or 65k?  <----Thats a pretty large gap in dps between 2 "supposedly" tier 1 classes.</p></blockquote><p>There's no way you can draw that conclusion from the dataset.</p>

[Carthr]

<p><cite>Boise wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Boise wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing.</p></blockquote><p>Interesting how people can look at the same thing and reach such different conclusions.  I'd read it exactly the opposite.  I see that raids are taking only one predator per raid.  I see both rangers and assassins from number one to number three on their respective parses.  <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">None of these raids listed so far has both predators on them</span></strong>.  Same for wizards and warlocks in terms of their relative dps.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly. Why have a ranger in a raid that might do 47-50k dps on rathgar when an assassin can easily do 65-70k dps?</p><p>My point is pretty simple. Figures do not lie. 47k or 65k?  <----Thats a pretty large gap in dps between 2 "supposedly" tier 1 classes.</p></blockquote><p>You are completely clueless Boise.. You can't do a blanket comparison from two different guilds..</p>

[Kyri123]

<p>Not to mention you can't compare between Russian servers and US servers.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Encantador wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well it is interesting to see how the numbers are playing out for other guilds, and is probably really the intent of the thread.  Most likely it is just to show the player base what SOE already knows with their parses...</p><p>For example people talking about Crusaders doing top DPS have no real basis at all based on how low the Crusaders are parsing throughout the thread.  Also I see some good parses with Necros and Rangers up at the top.  Things look good at the top end as suspected......so how do you balance that at the heroic level?</p></blockquote><p>The above was posted as I was typing my first reply.</p><p>I presume Bruener has never been in this fight. What the parses are showing is that crusaders are dominating the tanking for top end guilds and even eating regular DTs are doing decent DPS.</p></blockquote><p>I have been in the fight and I have tanked it.  What I see is the other fighters doing similar DPS and at the same point on the DPS chart for the fight as well as Crusaders....doing the same thing.  Also you can do this fight while taking 1 death as a fighter if you have a few of them in the raid which means you lose a total of maybe 5 sec DPS if you have somebody decent in your force ready to rez.  So you lose out on 5 sec and offensive fighters stacked with buffs and wearing all offensive gear are parsing around bards.  Its really not that hard to see and is exactly what will show up continuously as this thread goes on on different mobs.</p><p>That being said yes it is clear with the current parses that there are more classes of some than there are of others.  Mainly a lack of Guards (which has already been established as needing a lil luv).  But comparing fighter DPS across the board it is easy to see that fighters are parsing similar numbers despite their class in relation to their raid.  /gasp.</p><p>I believe this thread is more to show the player population that there aren't these made up discrepencies...just like I see Rangers holding the same type of positions as the other T1 DPS.  That there isn't this different amount of DPS on the Russian servers.  That Necros still pump out T1 type DPS.  This is all stuff SOE has seen and recognized...now maybe the player population can see it.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>I thought there were maybe 3 top end guilds left at best..</p>

[Shareana]

<p>Lets keep these comments here for now so that the original thread does not get clogged up <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I believe this thread is more to show the player population that there aren't these made up discrepencies...just like I see Rangers holding the same type of positions as the other T1 DPS.  That there isn't this different amount of DPS on the Russian servers.  That Necros still pump out T1 type DPS.  This is all stuff SOE has seen and recognized...now maybe the player population can see it.</p></blockquote><p>Um, I certainly didn't see that at all.</p><p>The russians did more raid dps and individual dps with a longer fight time, for instance.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Encantador wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well it is interesting to see how the numbers are playing out for other guilds, and is probably really the intent of the thread.  Most likely it is just to show the player base what SOE already knows with their parses...</p><p>For example people talking about Crusaders doing top DPS have no real basis at all based on how low the Crusaders are parsing throughout the thread.  Also I see some good parses with Necros and Rangers up at the top.  Things look good at the top end as suspected......so how do you balance that at the heroic level?</p></blockquote><p>The above was posted as I was typing my first reply.</p><p>I presume Bruener has never been in this fight. What the parses are showing is that crusaders are dominating the tanking for top end guilds and even eating regular DTs are doing decent DPS.</p></blockquote><p>I have been in the fight and I have tanked it.  What I see is the other fighters doing similar DPS and at the same point on the DPS chart for the fight as well as Crusaders....doing the same thing.  Also you can do this fight while taking 1 death as a fighter if you have a few of them in the raid which means you lose a total of maybe 5 sec DPS if you have somebody decent in your force ready to rez.  So you lose out on 5 sec and offensive fighters stacked with buffs and wearing all offensive gear are parsing around bards.  Its really not that hard to see and is exactly what will show up continuously as this thread goes on on different mobs.</p><p>That being said yes it is clear with the current parses that there are more classes of some than there are of others.  Mainly a lack of Guards (which has already been established as needing a lil luv).  But comparing fighter DPS across the board it is easy to see that fighters are parsing similar numbers despite their class in relation to their raid.  /gasp.</p><p>I believe this thread is more to show the player population that there aren't these made up discrepencies...just like I see Rangers holding the same type of positions as the other T1 DPS.  That there isn't this different amount of DPS on the Russian servers.  That Necros still pump out T1 type DPS.  This is all stuff SOE has seen and recognized...now maybe the player population can see it.</p></blockquote><p>This shows every raid with an SK and a huge amount with multiple SK's.  As far as dps on fighters goes this is the worst example to use as the mob death touches tanks, but it is funny we haven't seen a guard yet.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>I've only seen one top-end guild parse in that thread so its not surprising that they dont have all 24 classes</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Striikor@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This is not about balance at all, attempts to derail it to balance issues are wasted. This is about mob adjustment. There are no balance issues, everything is fine. That has been clearly stated by representatives of SOE.</p></blockquote><p>Yea all classes are balanced alright! Hey wait, I didn't see a warrior in any of the posted parses... *GASP*</p></blockquote><p>I THINK Striikor was being sarcastic about class balance.  That said, you need to look more closely.  There are warriors in a number of them.  I don't see any guards though.  I believe that is really what you are driving at anyway.</p></blockquote><p>I kind of figured he was but used it for an opening any ways<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Yea Now I go back a relooked I did see 3 zerkers, I was surprised when i didn't see any in the 1st place. You was right about my driving point <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>First off, great attempt at trolling davion.  No really...</p><p>Second.  I dont think you people understand the mechanics of ACT and parsing.   I saw someone say that rangers "top out" at 50K.   No one "tops out".  There is always someone better, someone trying harder and to give up like that is weak.  DPS figures are tied to the Raid DPS.  50K at 500 RW is 60K at 600K, 70K at 700...etc....</p><p>This is why I have always been more of a fan of the percent of the total DPS.  For example , in my parse I am 13% of the raidwide.   Percents are alot easier to understand and in my opinion, tell more of the story.</p><p>One more thing, if any of you are looking at Dakkota and my parses, and thinking this represents even 5% of the wizards in this game, you're wrong.  These numbers are from the highest skilled players, who have spent literally years refining and adjusting their game to become the where they are today.   I take my parses very seriously.  Every pull.  Every night.  For the last 5 years.   This is exactly whats fun about eq2 for me.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First off, great attempt at trolling davion.  No really...</p><p>Second.  I dont think you people understand the mechanics of ACT and parsing.   I saw someone say that rangers "top out" at 50K.   No one "tops out".  There is always someone better, someone trying harder and to give up like that is weak.  DPS figures are tied to the Raid DPS.  50K at 500 RW is 60K at 600K, 70K at 700...etc....</p><p>This is why I have always been more of a fan of the percent of the total DPS.  For example , in my parse I am 13% of the raidwide.   Percents are alot easier to understand and in my opinion, tell more of the story.</p><p>One more thing, if any of you are looking at Dakkota and my parses, and thinking this represents even 5% of the wizards in this game, you're wrong.  These numbers are from the highest skilled players, who have spent literally years refining and adjusting their game to become the where they are today.   I take my parses very seriously.  Every pull.  Every night.  For the last 5 years.   This is exactly whats fun about eq2 for me.</p></blockquote><p>Not gonna argue here but when I read this it just made me think of how Dakkota said he DPS's well.....mash buttons!!!!!</p><p>And really that is the truth of it....never understood why people can't DPS better.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>I personally roll a pepsi can across my keyboard, tbh</p>

[Putyo]

<p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Second.  I dont think you people understand the mechanics of ACT and parsing.   I saw someone say that rangers "top out" at 50K.   No one "tops out".  There is always someone better, someone trying harder and to give up like that is weak.  DPS figures are tied to the Raid DPS.  50K at 500 RW is 60K at 600K, 70K at 700...etc....</p></blockquote><p>Nope, maybe it will change with a full set of hardmode wing 3 gear but right now it doesnt really matter what you do, you are +- 50k as a ranger</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This is why I have always been more of a fan of the percent of the total DPS.  For example , in my parse I am 13% of the raidwide.   Percents are alot easier to understand and in my opinion, tell more of the story.</p></blockquote><p>They tell a story about how the rest of your raid isn't living up to their potential.</p>

[Boise]

<p><cite>Carthrax wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Boise wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Boise wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing.</p></blockquote><p>Interesting how people can look at the same thing and reach such different conclusions.  I'd read it exactly the opposite.  I see that raids are taking only one predator per raid.  I see both rangers and assassins from number one to number three on their respective parses.  <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">None of these raids listed so far has both predators on them</span></strong>.  Same for wizards and warlocks in terms of their relative dps.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly. Why have a ranger in a raid that might do 47-50k dps on rathgar when an assassin can easily do 65-70k dps?</p><p>My point is pretty simple. Figures do not lie. 47k or 65k?  <----Thats a pretty large gap in dps between 2 "supposedly" tier 1 classes.</p></blockquote><p>You are completely clueless Boise.. You can't do a blanket comparison from two different guilds..</p></blockquote><p>Do you honestly think the best ranger WW will beat the best assassin WW if both are in the same group??? Do you think any ranger can come close to (for reference sake) Gaige's number if that ranger was equally buffed??</p><p>I think you are clueless.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Second.  I dont think you people understand the mechanics of ACT and parsing.   I saw someone say that rangers "top out" at 50K.   No one "tops out".  There is always someone better, someone trying harder and to give up like that is weak.  DPS figures are tied to the Raid DPS.  50K at 500 RW is 60K at 600K, 70K at 700...etc....</p></blockquote><p>And it doesn't matter how 'skilled' you are this game is ultimately based on numbers determining the absolute highest outcome. The skill is getting as close as possible to that highest possible outcome. So if a class potential restricts them to X amount of maximum DPS output, no amount of will or skill or trying will make that number higher. This isn't the Matrix or some crap where if you 'believe' enough you can bend the rules. With your logic a Defiler could regurlarly put out 60k DPS on just about any fight if they are just 'trying harder'</p><p>Also you took the comment out of context to construct your straw man argument.</p><p><cite>Pudaanza@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Rangers cap out at about 50k give or take, there is basically no way to push that higher whatsoever unless it is an aoe encounter.</p></blockquote><p>I have found this to be more or less true. All things being equal; skill, level of equipment and buffs, <strong>at the very least </strong>a ranger will get beat by an assassin and wizard most of the time, the actual reality being much grimmer for rangers. Basing your performance on how many people your beating in raid or the percent of overall DPS you are doing is fail, unless all you want to do is make sure your guild doesn't boot you or have you sit on raids constantly.</p><p>And people are right, you can't draw conclusions on parses from two different guilds. That's why we have been basing it on parses from roughly a dozen guilds and rangers for about 2 years. A bunch of top end min/max rangers didn't betray/reroll because they were doing awesomely and just wanted to mix things up.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Rathgar is a pretty good mob in my opinion, since he's a straight dps race with very little to interfere with that for anything but fighters.  It is a little disconcerting to see that at my count we're up to :</p><p>SKs: 10</p><p>Pally: 2</p><p>Zerkers: 2</p><p>Monks: 1</p><p>Bruiser: 0</p><p>Guards: 0</p><p>Thats uh...pretty imbalanced as far as fighter representation goes.  80% of the fighters on raids are crusaders, 13.3% warriors, 6.7% brawlers.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Second.  I dont think you people understand the mechanics of ACT and parsing.   I saw someone say that rangers "top out" at 50K.   No one "tops out".  There is always someone better, someone trying harder and to give up like that is weak.  DPS figures are tied to the Raid DPS.  50K at 500 RW is 60K at 600K, 70K at 700...etc....</p></blockquote><p>And it doesn't matter how 'skilled' you are this game is ultimately based on numbers determining the absolute highest outcome. The skill is getting as close as possible to that highest possible outcome. So if a class potential restricts them to X amount of maximum DPS output, no amount of will or skill or trying will make that number higher. This isn't the Matrix or some crap where if you 'believe' enough you can bend the rules. With your logic a Defiler could regurlarly put out 60k DPS on just about any fight if they are just 'trying harder'</p><p>Also you took the comment out of context to construct your straw man argument.</p></blockquote><p>Does saying "straw man" make you automatically correct these days?  I dont think so. I am also 90% sure this isnt the Matrix.</p><p>However I am 100% sure that you, my compadre, are mistaken.  Are we playing the same game?  are defilers dps now? No, they arent.  nice try though.   By my logic, a defiler COULD parse 60K.  <span style="text-decoration: underline;">If the rest of the raidforce was combined at 6 million.</span> </p><p>  Maybe an awesome defiler could pull it off at 4 million.   who knows.   Try Harder.</p><p>Note the underlined part.   Attempt to comprehend it.   If you wanna cry about rangers then whatever.  I dont care about that.  Im not a ranger /wink.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>Let me ask you these questions:</p><p>Two equally skilled predators.   Which one wins the  ae encounter?</p><p>Do you believe I can come close to an excellent warlock consistantly AE? ( Close is within 10K in my book ).</p><p>I mean, we're all about taking things in context here, right?</p>

[Gaige]

<p>Bad example since wizards are the best mix of single target and ae target dps.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Bad example since wizards are the best mix of single target and ae target dps.</p></blockquote><p>Best mix?  You didnt answer my question Gaige.  Locks own ae.</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Best mix?  You didnt answer my question Gaige.  Locks own ae.</p></blockquote><p>Man I dunno, Dakkota wins his share of AE parses, I'd say locks own encounter parsing, sure, but multi non linked mobs?</p>

[Carthr]

<p><cite>Boise wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Carthrax wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You are completely clueless Boise.. You can't do a blanket comparison from two different guilds..</p></blockquote><p>Do you honestly think the best ranger WW will beat the best assassin WW if both are in the same group??? Do you think any ranger can come close to (for reference sake) Gaige's number if that ranger was equally buffed??</p><p>I think you are clueless.</p></blockquote><p>Now you are just guessing and assuming... Where's the proof...</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Second.  I dont think you people understand the mechanics of ACT and parsing.   I saw someone say that rangers "top out" at 50K.   No one "tops out".  There is always someone better, someone trying harder and to give up like that is weak.  DPS figures are tied to the Raid DPS.  50K at 500 RW is 60K at 600K, 70K at 700...etc....</p></blockquote><p>And it doesn't matter how 'skilled' you are this game is ultimately based on numbers determining the absolute highest outcome. The skill is getting as close as possible to that highest possible outcome. So if a class potential restricts them to X amount of maximum DPS output, no amount of will or skill or trying will make that number higher. This isn't the Matrix or some crap where if you 'believe' enough you can bend the rules. With your logic a Defiler could regurlarly put out 60k DPS on just about any fight if they are just 'trying harder'</p><p>Also you took the comment out of context to construct your straw man argument.</p></blockquote><p>Does saying "straw man" make you automatically correct these days?  I dont think so. I am also 90% sure this isnt the Matrix.</p><p>However I am 100% sure that you, my compadre, are mistaken.  Are we playing the same game?  are defilers dps now? No, they arent.  nice try though.   By my logic, a defiler COULD parse 60K.  <span style="text-decoration: underline;">If the rest of the raidforce was combined at 6 million.</span> </p><p>  Maybe an awesome defiler could pull it off at 4 million.   who knows.   Try Harder.</p><p>Note the underlined part.   Attempt to comprehend it.   If you wanna cry about rangers then whatever.  I dont care about that.  Im not a ranger /wink.</p></blockquote><p>What scenario are you talking about? Please show me in the game as it is now a raid wide parse of 6 million. Not some imaginary scenario thats not technically possible as the game stands. And where is this thinking that if one person is doing high DPS then another automatically does more DPS. Only reasons a raid force doing such insane raidwide DPS would have anything to do with a single persons DPS is because the resulting increase was from everyone in the game getting a huge DPS potential boost. And the raid force wouldn't even be the sole reason for the person increase in DPS. DPS and percentages don't work the way you think it does. Your mixing up cause and effect here.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>Answer my question pertaining to predators, neiloch</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>If all my AE's up, which they are not if AE fights are back to back, a ranger.</p><p>But of course I'm not winning the fight by the margin an assassin could beat me on single target. And if there are multiple AE fights one after another I only win the first one because ranger reuse timers are ridiculous, which we have mentioned at length,  and don't have proper access to auto AE for bows.</p><p>And stop this lame attempt at 'walking me through it' and just tell me the end of the argument so I can refute your more than likely inccorect argument.</p>

[steelbadger]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Rathgar is a pretty good mob in my opinion, since he's a straight dps race with very little to interfere with that for anything but fighters.  It is a little disconcerting to see that at my count we're up to :</p><p>SKs: 10</p><p>Pally: 2</p><p>Zerkers: 2</p><p>Monks: 1</p><p>Bruiser: 0</p><p>Guards: 0</p><p>Thats uh...pretty imbalanced as far as fighter representation goes.  80% of the fighters on raids are crusaders, 13.3% warriors, 6.7% brawlers.</p></blockquote><p>One Bruiser as well (might have missed it, mispelled: Brusier).  Posted by Uncle, Guild; Conviction.</p><p>Gogo Guards!</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Second.  I dont think you people understand the mechanics of ACT and parsing.   I saw someone say that rangers "top out" at 50K.   No one "tops out".  There is always someone better, someone trying harder and to give up like that is weak.  DPS figures are tied to the Raid DPS.  50K at 500 RW is 60K at 600K, 70K at 700...etc....</p></blockquote><p>And it doesn't matter how 'skilled' you are this game is ultimately based on numbers determining the absolute highest outcome. The skill is getting as close as possible to that highest possible outcome. So if a class potential restricts them to X amount of maximum DPS output, no amount of will or skill or trying will make that number higher. This isn't the Matrix or some crap where if you 'believe' enough you can bend the rules. With your logic a Defiler could regurlarly put out 60k DPS on just about any fight if they are just 'trying harder'</p><p>Also you took the comment out of context to construct your straw man argument.</p></blockquote><p>Does saying "straw man" make you automatically correct these days?  I dont think so. I am also 90% sure this isnt the Matrix.</p><p>However I am 100% sure that you, my compadre, are mistaken.  Are we playing the same game?  are defilers dps now? No, they arent.  nice try though.   By my logic, a defiler COULD parse 60K.  <span style="text-decoration: underline;">If the rest of the raidforce was combined at 6 million.</span> </p><p>  Maybe an awesome defiler could pull it off at 4 million.   who knows.   Try Harder.</p><p>Note the underlined part.   Attempt to comprehend it.   If you wanna cry about rangers then whatever.  I dont care about that.  Im not a ranger /wink.</p></blockquote><p>What scenario are you talking about? Please show me in the game as it is now a raid wide parse of 6 million. Not some imaginary scenario thats not technically possible as the game stands. And where is this thinking that if one person is doing high DPS then another automatically does more DPS. Only reasons a raid force doing such insane raidwide DPS would have anything to do with a single persons DPS is because the resulting increase was from everyone in the game getting a huge DPS potential boost. And the raid force wouldn't even be the sole reason for the person increase in DPS. DPS and percentages don't work the way you think it does. Your mixing up cause and effect here.</p></blockquote><p>His whole % of raid dps argument is completely flawed and a bunch of garbage.  More raid dps doesn't make you parse higher over time in any way whatsoever what it might do is fool the simple minded into thinking they are great on a short fight but that is about the extent of it.  Moreover, I could hop into some crappy pug raid an absolutely dominate their parse, guess what, that is just gear advantage.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>  Tell me , whats my, as a wizard's, magic number?  So I know when I reach it I can just give up and be sad thats all there is.</p><p>No wait, Im not like you.   I'm always going to try and do better than I did last time.</p><p>Go solo a few epic dummies and then get back to me about how the raid contributes nothing in factoring your personal dps.  Or the number itself.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  Tell me , whats my, as a wizard's, magic number?  So I know when I reach it I can just give up and be sad thats all there is.</p><p>No wait, Im not like you.   I'm always going to try and do better than I did last time.</p><p>Go solo a few epic dummies and then get back to me about how the raid contributes nothing in factoring your personal dps.  Or the number itself.</p></blockquote><p>I dunno, i'm not a wizard. I can tell you a whole lot of numbers you will never EVER get past no matter how hard you try though. Lets say, 2 million DPS barring any further changes to the game. But what your saying in these posts, is that you if you try real hard, believe in yourself, you can break the laws of physics and basic number theory by sheer will power and 'stick to-ativeness'</p><p>Yes raid buffs do increase DPS, but again these increase are measurable and limited, just like your classes potential maximum DPS.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>what i hope comes of this thread is the balancing of utillity classes.</p><p>  you will find that most raids are still running a chanter and bard in each group.   not really optimal imo when 4 classes have 8 slots to fill and every other class has one maybe two.</p><p>edit.</p><p>  misunderstood the arguement about raid dps.. nm</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>His whole % of raid dps argument is completely flawed and a bunch of garbage.  More raid dps doesn't make you parse higher over time in any way whatsoever what it might do is fool the simple minded into thinking they are great on a short fight but that is about the extent of it.  Moreover, I could hop into some crappy pug raid an absolutely dominate their parse, guess what, that is just gear advantage.</p></blockquote><p>  I am trying to see the part here where you prove my logic wrong.</p><p>You could jump into a terrible pug raid.  Completely dominate their parse.  Of course then youd also completely dominate the percentage.   Heck, lets just say 20% was all you.</p><p>Your zonewide for that night aint gonna be above 40K.   I know.  I've done it.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>Yes you are correct. The percentage is higher but your DPS IS NOT. Which means if he went off percentage ot gauge his performance, like you insist, it would be a really dumb idea. This is why DPS > percentage when it comes to balancing classes damage wise. Otherwise I could trounce a PUG in DPS and be called OP'd.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I dunno, i'm not a wizard. I can tell you a whole lot of numbers you will never EVER get past no matter how hard you try though. Lets say, 2 million DPS barring any further changes to the game. But what your saying in these posts, is that you if you try real hard, believe in yourself, you can break the laws of physics and basic number theory by sheer will power and 'stick to-ativeness'</p><p>Yes raid buffs do increase DPS, but again these increase are measurable and limited, just like your classes potential maximum DPS.</p></blockquote><p>no, this isnt what Im saying in my posts.  Re-read them.  You are being rediculous.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes you are correct. The percentage is higher but your DPS IS NOT. Which means if he went off percentage ot gauge his performance, like you insist, it would be a really dumb idea. This is why DPS > percentage when it comes to balancing classes damage wise. Otherwise I could trounce a PUG in DPS and be called OP'd.</p></blockquote><p>Going off percentage is the absolute best way to gauge his performance.  A number tells you nothing but itself.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I dont think you people understand the mechanics of ACT and parsing.   I saw someone say that rangers "top out" at 50K.   No one "tops out".  There is always someone better, someone <strong>trying harder</strong> and to give up like that is weak.  DPS figures are tied to the Raid DPS.</blockquote><p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>However I am 100% sure that you, my compadre, are mistaken.  Are we playing the same game?  are defilers dps now? No, they arent.  nice try though.   By my logic, a defiler COULD parse 60K.  <span style="text-decoration: underline;">If the rest of the raidforce was combined at 6 million.</span> <p>  Maybe an awesome defiler could pull it off at 4 million.   who knows.   <strong>Try Harder.</strong></p></blockquote><p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  Tell me , whats my, as a wizard's, magic number?  So I know when I reach it I can just give up and be sad thats all there is.</p><p>No wait, Im not like you.   I'm always going to <strong>try and do better</strong> than I did last time.</p></blockquote><p>So your <strong>not</strong> saying you can do more DPS than sum of the numbers they givee just by trying harder? i'm not contesting you can do better IF you are under the maximum, to be sure. the numbers being utilized are finite. I don't have access to the code but I seriously dount they have a line or two in there with <strong>∞ </strong>as its value.<strong></strong></p><p>I can tell you what I'm saying is, rangers have added the numbers up, and if an assassin and ranger were some how played to their maximum 100% potential, the assassin would win. Theres 2 threads at the 'other' forums with pages of numbers proving that in practical, executed raids, assassins do much more DPS than rangers. And yes,  hold a bigger percentage of the raid ZW DPS too.</p><p>Everyone, everywhere could try harder, and a ranger would still do less than assassins, skill, equipment and raid setups being equal.</p><p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes you are correct. The percentage is higher but your DPS IS NOT. Which means if he went off percentage ot gauge his performance, like you insist, it would be a really dumb idea. This is why DPS > percentage when it comes to balancing classes damage wise. Otherwise I could trounce a PUG in DPS and be called OP'd.</p></blockquote><p>Going off percentage is the absolute best way to gauge his performance.  A number tells you nothing but itself.</p></blockquote><p>If i'm doing 10% of one raids damage, and another person is doing 20% of a complete different raids damage, tell me which one is performing better at doing damage.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>Perhaps there is a secret message in all my posts in this thread, directed at you, neiloch.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>WHEN</strong></em></span>  I lose an encounter parse to our lock,  (And trust me, it happens)  do you think I....</p><p>A) Throw in the towel and cry that Fission needs to Double attack 100% of the time and be up every 15 seconds...</p><p>or..</p><p>B)  T_y _ard__ next time.</p><p>? </p><p>I made the missing letters game just for you.  I know you got this.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>lol so your premise is that the game is perfectly balanced and we, every ranger that has played the game in recent years, just aren't trying hard enough?</p><p>Your not getting what I'm telling you. We do try harder, we try harder a lot, but guess what? We hit a wall where all out damage has topped out for what we are given, and it won't go any higher. This number is below assassins.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If i'm doing 10% of one raids damage, and another person is doing 20% of a complete different raids damage, tell me which one is performing better at doing damage.</p></blockquote><p>Give me the two raidwides and I will give you your answer.</p>

[Neiloch]

Well if I gave you the DPS numbers then you wouldn't be basing performance on percentage anymore.

[SacDaddy420]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>lol so your premise is that the game is perfectly balanced and we, every ranger that has played the game in recent years, just aren't trying hard enough?</p><p>Your not getting what I'm telling you. We do try harder, we try harder a lot, but guess what? We hit a wall where all out damage has topped out for what we are given, and it won't go any higher. This number is below assassins.</p></blockquote><p>I dont play a rnger.  I am not specifically talking about rangers.  You are.  I am talking about parsing theory in general.  I am giving you examples from my experience as a sorceror over 5 years. </p><p>Ya know, when we started out and 2K was " beastmode".</p><p>Maybe rangers need to auto attack with their bows for 90K and flurry 100% of the time.  /shrug.  Let me know how that works out for you.</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Well if I gave you the DPS numbers then you wouldn't be basing performance on percentage anymore.</blockquote><p>Percentage tells you the most, however, everything's connected.  It is you that is so adamant that only the extDPS number matters.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Rathgar is a pretty good mob in my opinion, since he's a straight dps race with very little to interfere with that for anything but fighters.  It is a little disconcerting to see that at my count we're up to :</p><p>SKs: 10</p><p>Pally: 2</p><p>Zerkers: 2</p><p>Monks: 1</p><p>Bruiser: 0</p><p>Guards: 0</p><p>Thats uh...pretty imbalanced as far as fighter representation goes.  80% of the fighters on raids are crusaders, 13.3% warriors, 6.7% brawlers.</p></blockquote><p>Odd isn't it since they all parse the same....</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>Sure doesn't. Because the way percentages work, the same fight could have guy A in raid A do 30%, and Guy B in Raid B do 20%, but the guy who did 20% did more extDPS, meaning he performed better at his job of dishing out DPS.</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am trying to see the part here where you prove my logic wrong.</p></blockquote><p>I gained 15 to 20k dps doing SF beta raids just by playing an assassin.  Same guild, same raid makeup, same mobs just different class.  I had beta buffed both of the predators to 90 to try them out.</p><p><div><p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Going off percentage is the absolute best way to gauge his performance.  A number tells you nothing but itself.</p></blockquote><p>Really?  So your 65k makes you a better player because it was 13% of your raid's parse vs my 65k which was only 11% of my raid's parse?</p><p>Our raid did 73k more dps than your raid despite us parsing the same, so my % is lower because we have players in our raid who are doing their jobs better than the players in your raid.</p><p>%s are useful for rough comparisons, so you could say "ah, looks like assassins are normally 10% of the raid dps, if I'm around there I'm doing my job" - but they are not the end all be all.</p><p>You could easily do a higher % of DA's parse because DAs top to bottom DPS is lackluster.  I could probably do 13% of that parse too, but if you were in our guild you wouldn't be doing that % on Rathgar.</p></div></p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>what does that prove gaige?  I could betray and turn my 150K parse on those giant groups in the hole into 200K.  What is your point?</p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>and dont put words in my mouth I am not comparing or making assumptions against equilibrium here.</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>and dont put words in my mouth I am not comparing or making assumptions against equilibrium here.</p></blockquote><p>But you keep bringing up %s and I'm telling you why your %s are so high: its because the other people in your raid aren't as good as you are.  I mean it goes you at 65k, a couple at 45k and then a huge drop with the majority of your raid in the 20k range.</p><p>The better the players that you're surrounded with the less % of raid dps you'll do because the raidwide goes up dramatically when full of good players and stuff dies faster and the raid isn't reliant on one or two people to do the majority of the damage.</p><p>When I was in Revelations isn't wasn't uncommon for #1 and #2 on the parse to be 35% or more of the entire raid's damage.  Why was that?  It was because the other players weren't as good at doing damage or their jobs in general.  Having tanks, utility and priests that can do their jobs while parsing high goes a long way.</p><p><div><p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>what does that prove gaige?  I could betray and turn my 150K parse on those giant groups in the hole into 200K.  What is your point?</p></blockquote><p>I'm not talking one or two encounters tailor made for the other class.  I'm talking overall.  Single target named, trash, grouped named, etc.  Overall I saw a 15 to 20k difference just by playing an assassin over a ranger.  To me that shows that the ranger class is lacking.</p></div></p>

[SacDaddy420]

<p>Im done, nevermind.  I dont have time anymore for this.  </p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Sacdaddy@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>His whole % of raid dps argument is completely flawed and a bunch of garbage.  More raid dps doesn't make you parse higher over time in any way whatsoever what it might do is fool the simple minded into thinking they are great on a short fight but that is about the extent of it.  Moreover, I could hop into some crappy pug raid an absolutely dominate their parse, guess what, that is just gear advantage.</p></blockquote><p>  I am trying to see the part here where you prove my logic wrong.</p><p>You could jump into a terrible pug raid.  Completely dominate their parse.  Of course then youd also completely dominate the percentage.   Heck, lets just say 20% was all you.</p><p>Your zonewide for that night aint gonna be above 40K.   I know.  I've done it.</p></blockquote><p>Explain this then Sacc, lets say I am doing 40k on a fight, now the next time we do that fight the ranger thats in my group isn't on so instead I get a dirge.  Everyones dps in the group jumps enough that overall dps for the raid remains the same yet I end up parsing 50k.  Well my % of the raidwide went up right but overal dps remained the did I improve or did I just get better buffs?</p><p>Your logic is garbage because raidwide dps is a non factor in calculating DPS.  All raidwide dps does is alter the TIME part of DPS it doesn't make your dps go up or down. Get it?  600k dps on a 30 million hitpoint mob is not comparable to 400k dps on a 300 million hitpoint mob because the 300 million hitpoint mob would take 15 times as long to die but the 300 million hitpoint mob would be a way better parse to look at.  If you were actually comparising DPS in a proper and fair way it would be over a measured and specific amount of time with identical buffs and debuffs.  All you are doing by shortening fights is making skills like manaburn look more effective because they aren't around for full refresh cycles.</p>

[Tehom]

<p>I agree with the concerns others have posted that it's easy to draw misleading conclusions from the data given the number of variables that are not shown. I hope they don't leap to any conclusions when looking at the parses and take a great deal of care when evaluating them.</p>

[irbi]

<p><cite>edit(</cite></p>

[Khurghan]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Rathgar is a pretty good mob in my opinion, since he's a straight dps race with very little to interfere with that for anything but fighters.  It is a little disconcerting to see that at my count we're up to :</p><p>SKs: 10</p><p>Pally: 2</p><p>Zerkers: 2</p><p>Monks: 1</p><p>Bruiser: 0</p><p>Guards: 0</p><p>Thats uh...pretty imbalanced as far as fighter representation goes.  80% of the fighters on raids are crusaders, 13.3% warriors, 6.7% brawlers.</p></blockquote><p>Odd isn't it since they all parse the same....</p></blockquote><p>My drink just shot out of my nose all over my desk ...</p>

[Macross_JR]

<p>to piggy back on other's concerns, where's all these supposed guardians in the top guilds?  that do just as good of a job?  I mean seriously.  Not a single Guardian on any of those parses and people wonder why guardians are upset.</p>

[Macross_JR]

<p>ok, so Llicah posted this parse, finally a guardian in there....<span ><p>Rathgar: (03:1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 83540448 | 421921.50 [Altaiear-Assassinate-229616]</p><p>Akenhead 9441378 | 47683.73 (assassin)</p><p>Zealchu 7508317 | 37920.79 (conjy)</p><p>Altaiear 7010156 | 35404.83 (assassin)</p><p>Quatt 5843892 | 29514.61 (necro)</p><p>Grimrot 5310916 | 26822.81 (SK)</p><p>Llicah 5273468 | 26633.68 (ranger)</p><p>Gilad 5207152 | 26298.75 (coercer)</p><p>Vashere 4747899 | 23979.29 (brig)</p><p>Chrysto 4397210 | 22208.13 (brig)</p><p>Ichoff 4122439 | 20820.40 (dirge)</p><p>Timis 3981596 | 20109.07 (coercer)</p><p>Ween 3927310 | 19834.90 (troub)</p><p>Exile 3856414 | 19476.84 (guard)</p><p>Dashiva 3299693 | 16665.12 (dirge)</p><p>Ravox 3193368 | 16128.12 (illy)</p><p>Mavstar 1970440 | 9951.72 (troub)</p><p>Battlefury 1164226 | 5879.93 (warden)</p><p>Lorainna 1161106 | 5864.17 (fury)</p><p>Dancer 778276 | 3930.69 (defiler)</p><p>Loki 466526 | 2356.19 (mystic)</p><p>Tawanda 261618 | 1321.30 (templar)</p><p>Raze 250408 | 1264.69 (inq)</p><p>Ouchime 103348 | 521.96 (inq)</p><p>Brethe 22368 | 112.97 (templar)</p><p>not 100% sure about grp set up, but it was prolly someting close to this:</p><p>grp1 [SK, conjy, coercer (Gilad), troub (Ween), inq (Ouchime), templar (Brethe)]</p><p>grp2 [guard, coercer (Timis), dirge (Ichoff), defiler, templar (Tawanda), assassin (Akenhead)]</p><p>grp3 [necro, mystic, fury, illy, assassin (Altaiear), troub (Mavstar)]</p><p>grp4 [ranger, inq (Raze), warden, dirge (Dashiva), brig, brig]</p><p>Hmm...sk at 26.8kdps and the guardian at around 19.5kdps.  Yeah...umm...that's even.  It seems the guard was actually tanking, at least I hope he was with that group.  Also, you have the sk parsing over both brigs(granted it seems they got the short bus group with the ranger-no coercer or illy)</p></span></p>

[Aule]

<p><cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>ok, so Llicah posted this parse, finally a guardian in there....</p></blockquote><p>Troops of Doom posted a Bruiser, so we got full class participation now.</p><p>Mostly cause our tanks slacked in the showing up and not losing connection department, so I was on my bruiser instead of my coercer.</p>

[Leovinus]

<p><cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>ok, so Llicah posted this parse, finally a guardian in there....<span><p>Rathgar: (03:1<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> 83540448 | 421921.50 [Altaiear-Assassinate-229616]</p><p>Akenhead 9441378 | 47683.73 (assassin)</p><p>Zealchu 7508317 | 37920.79 (conjy)</p><p>Altaiear 7010156 | 35404.83 (assassin)</p><p>Quatt 5843892 | 29514.61 (necro)</p><p>Grimrot 5310916 | 26822.81 (SK)</p><p>Llicah 5273468 | 26633.68 (ranger)</p><p>Gilad 5207152 | 26298.75 (coercer)</p><p>Vashere 4747899 | 23979.29 (brig)</p><p>Chrysto 4397210 | 22208.13 (brig)</p><p>Ichoff 4122439 | 20820.40 (dirge)</p><p>Timis 3981596 | 20109.07 (coercer)</p><p>Ween 3927310 | 19834.90 (troub)</p><p>Exile 3856414 | 19476.84 (guard)</p><p>Dashiva 3299693 | 16665.12 (dirge)</p><p>Ravox 3193368 | 16128.12 (illy)</p><p>Mavstar 1970440 | 9951.72 (troub)</p><p>Battlefury 1164226 | 5879.93 (warden)</p><p>Lorainna 1161106 | 5864.17 (fury)</p><p>Dancer 778276 | 3930.69 (defiler)</p><p>Loki 466526 | 2356.19 (mystic)</p><p>Tawanda 261618 | 1321.30 (templar)</p><p>Raze 250408 | 1264.69 (inq)</p><p>Ouchime 103348 | 521.96 (inq)</p><p>Brethe 22368 | 112.97 (templar)</p><p>not 100% sure about grp set up, but it was prolly someting close to this:</p><p>grp1 [SK, conjy, coercer (Gilad), troub (Ween), inq (Ouchime), templar (Brethe)]</p><p>grp2 [guard, coercer (Timis), dirge (Ichoff), defiler, templar (Tawanda), assassin (Akenhead)]</p><p>grp3 [necro, mystic, fury, illy, assassin (Altaiear), troub (Mavstar)]</p><p>grp4 [ranger, inq (Raze), warden, dirge (Dashiva), brig, brig]</p><p>Hmm...sk at 26.8kdps and the guardian at around 19.5kdps.  Yeah...umm...that's even.  It seems the guard was actually tanking, at least I hope he was with that group.  Also, you have the sk parsing over both brigs(granted it seems they got the short bus group with the ranger-no coercer or illy)</p></span></p></blockquote><p>Yeah, group 4 got shortchanged that raid since we only had 3 chanters on.  But for full disclosure, if I'm not mistaken, the SK took at least 2 of the scripted deaths, maybe 3 of them.  I know the guard got at least one (and yes, the guard is the mt).</p>

[Macross_JR]

<p>so, the SK took 2 deaths and still did 26.8kdps while the guard took 1 death and squeeked out 19.5kdps.  Yep, that's totally balanced.  Because as far as I remember when we killed it the tank was in offensive stance as well.</p>

[Carthr]

<p>What do you expect when they neutered guardians to uselessness?  I mean, FFS, they didn't see this coming? Potency does almost jack squat for a guard, crusaders get 25% aa modifier(Knights Stance) when sword and board... The only small saving grace for a guard is the 1.5 crit multi..  But it doesn't make up for any of the other stuff a crusader gets...</p><p>When a dev finally pulls their head out of the behind and fixes this, I'll be suprised.. But what do expect when most are completely clueless on game mechanics, and can't be bothered to even look at this after almost 2 years.. GG</p>

[Kringus]

<p>The notion of getting useful data by having people submit parses is FAIL.</p><p>First, if you look at some of these parses you can see that two people of the same class can have radically different parses- one just above has a troub at 19k, and one at 9k.  So the numbers are in no way representative of the class, unless you ONLY look at the highest values- and then you could be missing that someone had a special proc crit at the right moment while buffs A B C and D all landed on them (this especially true of bards).</p><p>Second, parses from ACT don't reflect the overall real parse.  As an illy I stand waaaaay back on fights where the mob aoes- my parser doesn't get everything the tank does, and the tank's parser doesn't get everything I do.  On some fights we split the raid force- so my half of the raid force always DPS's higher for some reason.</p><p>Third, at least some people will post parses for a specific purpose- you won't get a statisically meaningul sample because there is selection going on.   People will post to make a point: "nerf X class".  You can dig up (or alter) a parse to show just about anything you like.</p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>so, the SK took 2 deaths and still did 26.8kdps while the guard took 1 death and squeeked out 19.5kdps.  Yep, that's totally balanced.  Because as far as I remember when we killed it the tank was in offensive stance as well.</p></blockquote><p>And I assume they had equal gear, buffs and player skill? What about posting multple parses, preferably from a more controlled environment than a live fight, and compare how they do with different buff setups? A signle parse is worthless for making any sort of judgement.</p><p>Really, only SOE has access to the data needed to make judgements about DPS capability, as they should be able to see how much DPS every character does in every fight, and correlate that wil gear, group setups, buffs and anything else. They should also be able to compare this to the theoretical maximum DPS a class can put out.</p>

[Kringus]

<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>so, the SK took 2 deaths and still did 26.8kdps while the guard took 1 death and squeeked out 19.5kdps.  Yep, that's totally balanced.  Because as far as I remember when we killed it the tank was in offensive stance as well.</p></blockquote><p>And I assume they had equal gear, buffs and player skill? What about posting multple parses, preferably from a more controlled environment than a live fight, and compare how they do with different buff setups? A signle parse is worthless for making any sort of judgement.</p></blockquote><p>There is no way for them to get statistically meaningful data from parses.  Too much is dependant on player skill, gear, and group makeup.</p><p>The only way to properly weigh the merits of two or more classes is to PLAY THOSE CLASSES.  If they have specific questions they should ask players that they trust for answers- preferably players who PLAY THOSE CLASSES, and they should factor in things like envy and "grass is greener" syndrome.</p><p>Even if they did the equivalent of having raid bosses run ACT and report back to them, they'd still get worthless data.  If you want to compare rangers and assassins, for example, you have to have a player with the same level of gear, masters, and competence playing each, with the same buffs and opportunities.</p><p>Tanks would be even harded to compare, since they could be defensive or offensive spec/gear/stance and again group construction factors.  Also, was one tank out of range of the parser while grabbing adds?  Was one tank in all the time and the other jousting?  etc.</p><p>But people have screamed that they want the devs to listen to them- so here's the devs, listening.  "Give us your lies, damned lies, and statistics please."</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Really, only SOE has access to the data needed to make judgements about DPS capability, as they should be able to see how much DPS every character does in every fight, and correlate that wil gear, group setups, buffs and anything else. They should also be able to compare this to the theoretical maximum DPS a class can put out.</p></blockquote><p>I'm sure they do. unfortunately it means jack squat if the majority player perception is different. I'm sure classes are much closer to balanced on paper than players experience it. But perception IS reality, and being balanced 'on paper' means exactly squat if players of said class and other players observing the class think the class in question is crap. Going strictly by the numbers works well in scientific fields but its a horrible policy when dealing with A LOT of human error and perception.</p><p>So they can either adjust values to accommodate what the majority of players see as 'balanced', or put changes in place to help players change their perceptions so its more in line with what they get on paper. The latter being ideal imo. Both of which they are not doing though, and instead resorting to, until very recently, 'we're right, your wrong, get over it'</p>

[-=Hoss=-]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Basing your performance on how many people your beating in raid or the percent of overall DPS you are doing is fail, unless all you want to do is make sure your guild doesn't boot you or have you sit on raids constantly.</blockquote><p>Seriously?  Did you seriously say that?  What else is there to base your performance on?  I guess your not going to be happy until Guiness creates a world record for biggest number in a video game and you hold it.</p><p>And your personal DPS number does most assuredly depend on everyone else in the raid.  I can tell by your disbeleif that you have never actually done a pickup raid where you doubled the numbers for the #2 person on the parse.  I have done a few and my overall numbers are much lower than they are in my own raid where there's actually competition for the top spot.  Same holds true for heroic instances, with a stacked group that melts everything ASAP, my numbers go much higher than in the group where I'm the only DPS, even if I'm not winning those parses.</p>

[Carthr]

<p><cite>Kringus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Second, parses from ACT don't reflect the overall real parse.  As an illy I stand waaaaay back on fights where the mob aoes- my parser doesn't get everything the tank does, and the tank's parser doesn't get everything I do.  On some fights we split the raid force- so my half of the raid force always DPS's higher for some reason.</p></blockquote><p>Do you split your raid force on the Rathgar encounter? Umm... In this particular question your points have absolutely no basis..</p><p>Second.. Any DPS you do to the mob, the MT's parses will pick up, since that damage is being done to the mob, therefor since the MT is less than 5m from the mob, he'll pick it up...Nice try tho</p>

[Kringus]

<p><cite>Carthrax wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kringus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Second, parses from ACT don't reflect the overall real parse.  As an illy I stand waaaaay back on fights where the mob aoes- my parser doesn't get everything the tank does, and the tank's parser doesn't get everything I do.  On some fights we split the raid force- so my half of the raid force always DPS's higher for some reason.</p></blockquote><p>Do you split your raid force on the Rathgar encounter? Umm... In this particular question your points have absolutely no basis..</p><p>Second.. Any DPS you do to the mob, the MT's parses will pick up, since that damage is being done to the mob, therefor since the MT is less than 5m from the mob, he'll pick it up...Nice try tho</p></blockquote><p>I'm not talking about Rathgar, I'm talking about parses in general.</p><p>It is true the tank can see my DPS mobs near him.   That is not every mob I may be DPSing. </p><p>If you've used ACT for any length of time at all, you should be aware of how varied the parse can be, depending on whose ACT is being printed.   There are lots of reasons for that- but the point is, the statistics aren't reliable.  The parse from your log will most likely be accurate for you- and accuracy for everyone else will drop off with range, which is no big deal if your raid all stands in the same spot, but that's rarely true.</p><p>In particular, a parse posted by a ranger will show the ranger with a high parse (because he sees his own damage messages) but an assassin up by the mob with a lower parse than is "real", because damage messages are missed.</p>

[Seiffil]

<p><cite>Kringus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In particular, a parse posted by a ranger will show the ranger with a high parse (because he sees his own damage messages) but an assassin up by the mob with a lower parse than is "real", because damage messages are missed.</p></blockquote><p>A ranger should really be close enough to the mob that this would not be an issue.  The only exception is when it's a fight people are jousting out of, but then with the exception of the MT's parse, no one is probably going to get a truly accurate parse for everyone participating in the encounter.</p>

[Omgidomms]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Rathgar is a pretty good mob in my opinion, since he's a straight dps race with very little to interfere with that for anything but fighters.  It is a little disconcerting to see that at my count we're up to :</p><p>SKs: 10</p><p>Pally: 2</p><p>Zerkers: 2</p><p>Monks: 1</p><p>Bruiser: 0</p><p>Guards: 0</p><p>Thats uh...pretty imbalanced as far as fighter representation goes.  80% of the fighters on raids are crusaders, 13.3% warriors, 6.7% brawlers.</p></blockquote><p>Odd isn't it since they all parse the same....</p></blockquote><p>It's all about the looks. Sk's look far better so people play sk. The name bruiser sound like something that get hurt, and monk just sound like someone not fighting at all.</p><p>Brawlers should be top parsing fighters, except we aren't.</p>

[EasternKing]

<p><cite>Ratzer@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Rathgar is a pretty good mob in my opinion, since he's a straight dps race with very little to interfere with that for anything but fighters.  It is a little disconcerting to see that at my count we're up to :</p><p>SKs: 10</p><p>Pally: 2</p><p>Zerkers: 2</p><p>Monks: 1</p><p>Bruiser: 0</p><p>Guards: 0</p><p>Thats uh...pretty imbalanced as far as fighter representation goes.  80% of the fighters on raids are crusaders, 13.3% warriors, 6.7% brawlers.</p></blockquote><p>Odd isn't it since they all parse the same....</p></blockquote><p>It's all about the looks. Sk's look far better so people play sk. The name bruiser sound like something that get hurt, and monk just sound like someone not fighting at all.</p><p>Brawlers should be top parsing fighters, except we aren't.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, you are hands down the top defensive tanks, lets give you the ability to be hands down top offensive tank also.</p><p>I am glad the devs ignore 99.9% of the playerbase.</p>

[MurFalad]

<p><cite>Kringus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There is no way for them to get statistically meaningful data from parses.  Too much is dependant on player skill, gear, and group makeup.</p></blockquote><p>My thoughts too on this, the only one thing of interest these parses show is what the highest DPS a player has actually achieved with that class out of its theoritical potential.</p><p>And only then because it then can be compared back to the spreadsheet/application that I expect has been written using the current game rules to calculate what the theoretical DPS of each class is by the devs.  If a class then always parsed much lower then the theortetical maximum then it indicates a class is either too hard to be playable by a human, or most encounters prevent them from being played efficiently.</p><p><cite>Kringus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The only way to properly weigh the merits of two or more classes is to PLAY THOSE CLASSES.  If they have specific questions they should ask players that they trust for answers- preferably players who PLAY THOSE CLASSES, and they should factor in things like envy and "grass is greener" syndrome.</p></blockquote><p>This bit I disagree with though, I play a Guardian main, I could swap to a SK and how well I did would be extremely variable, any parse from such even if I managed to get equivalent gear would be fairly meaningless.  I'd have to enjoy playing both classes to put enough effort in to get any sort of good attempt at the parses.</p><p>What there should be (and I'm guessing is) will be a plan from the devs on what the maximum attainable gear level in the expansion will be.</p><p>And then the sort of gear they expect people to be using at various stages of the content.  Then I'd expect a spreadsheet/app with the ideal cast sequence against a variety of training dummy style opponents (or multiple opponents) to give a rough idea of how each class performs.  That approach is going to miss out a lot of detail, but the playtesting then should find this out.</p><blockquote><p>Tanks would be even harded to compare, since they could be defensive or offensive spec/gear/stance and again group construction factors.  Also, was one tank out of range of the parser while grabbing adds?  Was one tank in all the time and the other jousting?  etc.</p></blockquote><p>Yep, there is no idea what this tank would be doing, how many adds they had to deal with etc. </p><p>My biggest problem with modelling the DPS feels like it would be with scouts and the need to swap from melee to ranged to keep each ranged Auto attack but I don't seriously play a scout although with time I should figure this out, for melee its just fitting a cast in between a swing.</p><p>So many variables though, one other thing this whole T1 to T4 DPS class, sure a wizard played well should beat all, but in theory those bands should only give the maximum ability played well for the class, so T2 DPS played well should beat T1 played averagly.</p>

[Aule]

<p><div><div><p><cite>Floyd3421 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Kill on 7/2/2010 at 9:36 CST.   Raidwide DPS was 325,719.</p><p>Group 4 Conjuror  8,357,694   33,565  10.30%Group 4 Necromancer  7,552,028   30,329  9.31%Group 2 Assassin  6,253,300   25,114  7.71%Group 3 Brigand    5,802,971   23,305  7.15%Group 2 Swash    5,678,516   22,805  7.00%Group 2 Ranger    5,664,494   22,749  6.98%Group 1 Swash     5,605,500   22,512  6.91%Group 4 Warlock    5,511,548   22,135  6.80%Group 1 SK    4,467,067   17,940  5.51%Group 1 Dirge   4,214,606   16,926  5.20%Group 3 Ranger    3,971,079   15,948  4.90%Group 4 Troub    3,814,436   15,319  4.70%Group 2 Berzerker  3,763,284   15,114  4.64%Group 3 Bruiser    2,837,554   11,396  3.50%Group 1 Coercer    2,680,690   10,766  3.06%Group 3 Warden    798,539   3,207   0.98%Group 4 Mystic    512,886   2,060   0.63%Group 1 Defiler    475,097   1,908   0.59%Group 4 Inquisitor  358,085   1,438   0.44%Group 3 Templar    206,811   831   0.25%Group 1 Templar   37,057   149   0.05%Group 2 Templar    30,409   122   0.04%Group 2 Mystic    30,273   122   0.04%</p></blockquote></div><p>I didn't realize it was killable now with that low dps.  The extra time must have really helped a lot.  Wasn't it about 500k dps needed before?</p></div></p>

[Guy De Alsace]

<p>If there was a parse for [Removed for Content] IS HAPPENING I'd win every time...</p>

[Carthr]

<p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><p>I didn't realize it was killable now with that low dps.  The extra time must have really helped a lot.  Wasn't it about 500k dps needed before?</p></div></blockquote><p>400kish was cutting it close..</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p>People exploit the add and pull him around the wall so the named he cant kill it to gain the level, and you can just DPS the named and not worry about the add...</p>

[Vymm]

[Rasttan]

<p>Some tanks snap that guy and eat all the deathshots, thats what I try do.</p><p>Also some tanks have to go alot more defensive than others to tank any mob of significance. Other tank classes like to forget to mention they get all there uncontested while offensive and craploads of mit while offensive just due to gear and a cpl pieces of jewerly.</p>

[Raahl]

<p>My worry is that they try and balance the game, classes/mobs, around the high end raiding players/guilds.  Causing the average players/guilds problems because changes wouldn't scale well to the average player.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>So you necro a 9 month old thread for that?</p>

[Raahl]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So you necro a 9 month old thread for that?</p></blockquote><p>Nope I necro'd it because I didn't realize the stickied post wasn't a current discussion.  Seeing that they asked for comments here and not in the sticky, I followed the link not realizing how old this was.</p>

[-=Hoss=-]

<p>Still.  Pretty embarassing, huh? </p>

[Raahl]

<p><cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Still.  Pretty embarassing, huh? </p></blockquote><p>Nope.</p>