Is Brigand a DPS class?

[Dareena]

<p>Are brigands are dps class?  Yes, I know that it sounds like a very dumb question.  Yet in the top tier of the game, I'm starting to hear increasingly more common comments that say <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">brigands aren't a dps class</span></strong>.  What the heck!!??</p><p>I've played a brigand since RoK and it's my main.  My character is always rushing towards the AA cap and grabbing masters left and right.  It's not like my character is just under powered, even if I don't have the best of the top end gear since I switched to just PUG raiding back during TSO.  While people who see me in action seem to be usually satisfied with my dps rate and party contributions, it's like that no longer matters.  That's what has me confused.</p><p>Somewhere at about the middle of TSO, I started to see an unusual occurance.  If a PUG heroic group was forming and was asking for more dps classes (of any kind), sometimes I would get turned down on principle because of my class.  "I'm sorry, but we already have a brigand already."  "I'm sorry, but we're asking for a dps class."  Umm...  Well those were random responses.  Thankfully they came from only a small group of people on my server and I quickly learned who they were.</p><p>Yet now in SF, I'm seeing this trend continue and expand.  At times, I've even been asked why I haven't betrayed to swashbuckler since it would noticeably improve my parse and give me the desireability of a  threat transfer class.  PUG heroic and raid groups are turning me down far more often, even though I'm far more powerful this many months into SF than I was (comparitively) in TSO.  From what I can gather, brigands exist as some kind of debuff bot and theoretically don't really contribute much more of value to a group / raid.</p><p>Now I still get a lot of people who are happy or thrilled to have me along.  In some respects, it's helping since I'm slowly running into less brigands while I'm refusing to betray.  Yet at this point, I have to wonder.  Will this trend of "brigands can't dps" continue to grow larger in the coming months?  I just don't know, but I consider it to be a real possibility.</p><p>Are any of you all experiencing similar issues these days?  I'm trying to figure out if LDL is showing signs of the general trend or if we're out in left field.</p>

[EasternKing]

<p>This is a very important topic, and i hope the powers that be take note and make some changes.</p><p>Brigands debuffs only ever matter in a raid where you have incompetent players. Otherwise you can cap out and keep capped out mitigation debuffs without a Brigand in the raid.</p><p>How do i know this? i play one, i also run a raid guild, i also know my guilds raid wide dps is the same with my Brigand in it as it is when my Brigand is not in it.</p><p>My Top parsing DPS class's have said they time biggest hits with Dispatch landing, yet see no increase in there hits, they land for the same amount as when my Brigand is not in the raid.</p><p>When you have people using there miti debuffs, debuffs that usually last for 3 times the duration that stack also, Brigands are redundant.</p><p>Yet time and time again we get told Brigands have utility? what a joke, Utility class's are Dirge/Troub Coercer/Illusionist.</p><p>Debuffs are not and have never ever been Utility, every class gets them, Healers get a ton of them.</p><p>Brigands ask why do we have the lowest DPS potential of the 8 DPS class's? we get told you have these amazing debuffs! rubbish, our debuffs are a placebo for the less informed and for poor players.</p><p>Give the choice of Taking a Brigand in my raid or taking a Wiz/War/Swash/Ranger/Conjy/Necro, good bye mr Brigand we dont need you and your redundant, hasn't evoloved or moved forwards since T6 class.</p><p>Rangers complain about being unloved, Brigands are the red headed stepchilds of the DPS class's.</p>

[Striikor]

<p>I almost never troll but ....</p><p>Rogues have the best survivability of any scout. Originally from my point of view Swashy's and Brig's were the scout tanks. Predators were the DPS and the bards were the buff bots <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If fact I have done more than a few zones in which a rogue tanked.  Both rogues have the best survivability of any scout. </p><p>Rogues have decent to high DPS and utility/debuffs you could not get elsewhere. In particular Brigand debuffs drastically affected DPS in a positive manner. At one point those debuffs were critical to getting a tough mob down. The swashy's were required to control hate and the brig to get the mob down fast. I still work to try to time my big attacks to be available for dispatch. </p><p>The same thing is happening to Brigs as has happened to other classes over the years. Utility that was uniquely yours has been greatly mitigated by stuff added to other classes. It is true that it has been a while since I heard someone argue to get a brigand in their group/raid. Like at least 3 other classes, what you bring is not obvious and has been made inconsequential as it is available from classes that bring more to the table.</p><p>Today you fail if you don't have a tank, healer, bard and chanter.</p><p>Today you are not going to fail because you don't have a summoner. Nor brigand or ranger as our counterparts have needed hate transfer's and better potential DPS, nothing we bring will provide equal value to a group or raid. Straight DPS has become available from almost anywhere at this point.</p><p>Other than dependable (not great) DPS. To develop competing DPS you need the right group, and you have nothing that will recommend you for the OT or MT group where the buffs you need are. I know Brigands who provide great DPS When they are in a group that supports it.</p><p>For instance I group regularly with a Monk, Mystic, Dirge, Coercer and Brigand in vigilant zones. In that group it is a job to try to top the parse as a ranger. It rotates from monk to brigand to ranger with the dirge and coercer popping the top on occasion, it takes 25 to 30K+ to top the parse in that group. </p><p>It would be nice if a Brig and Ranger had buffs that would provide significant benefit to one another. Heck make that summoners, brigs and rangers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I seem to mostly be grouped with our Brig who actually does fairly well on the parse always seems to land in the top five. Without a group built around him. And very often our conjy is there too. What does your group 4 look like?</p><p>But what was, has been lessened and seems easily available in other places.</p>

[EasternKing]

<p><cite>Striikor@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I almost never troll but ....</p><p>Rogues have the best survivability of any scout. Originally from my point of view Swashy's and Brig's were the scout tanks. Predators were the DPS and the bards were the buff bots <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> If fact I have done more than a few zones in which a rogue tanked.  Both rogues have the best survivability of any scout. </p></blockquote><p>Yes because Rogues are required in a game to tank, when there are 6, that is right SIX fighter class's.</p><p>Rogues are are a DPS class, period. yet only one of them is a DPS class, the Swashbuckler, they complained there debuffs were redundant, Aeralik listend, and upped there damage out ability significantly.</p><p>Now there is as big an issue between Brigand and Swashbuckler as there is high Preds.</p>

[Striikor]

<p><cite>Striikor@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The same thing is happening to Brigs as has happened to other classes over the years. Utility that was uniquely yours has been greatly mitigated by stuff added to other classes. It is true that it has been a while since I heard someone argue to get a brigand in their group/raid. Like at least 3 other classes, what you bring is not obvious and has been made inconsequential as it is available from classes that bring more to the table.</p><p>Today you fail if you don't have a tank, healer, bard and chanter.</p><p>But what was, has been lessened and seems easily available in other places.</p></blockquote><p>Not disputing your point but I reiterated what I think is most important. They are slowly and inexorably removing the Role from Role Playing. The lines get more blurred every update.</p><p>The biggest mistake I think they made was increasing tank DPS to control mobs. Once that happened the erosion was bound to increase. When that happened the balance started to shift and blur. Unfortunately it did not just affect pure DPS classes but unraveled grouping logic entirely. It eventually made the 'scout' group archaic, redundant and obsolete.</p><p>Since the Tanks got to the point that DPS controlled aggro classes and pairings that were traditional moved from there into the MT and OT groups. If you want to succeed tanks have to control aggro, today to control aggro DPS is still a large part of that. To generate the DPS the buffs that used to go to the scout group now got to the MT, OT first. This happens even when grouping.</p><p>I have always wished that they had just added hate increases to tank ca's instead of increasing or requiring their increased damage. I know an SK that solo's the hole entirely save one named for instance. And it is not a grind as he does very nice DPS while doing it.</p><p>It should be a simple equation, less utility= more DPS.</p><p>In EQ2 You MUST have a Tank and a healer. The tank and the healer need buffs. The two ultimate utility classes are healers and tanks, next in line are bards and chanters, then rogues then summoners and lastly mages and predators.</p><p>If swashy's provide better utility and get better grouping logic Brig's should have a balancing advantage in DPS.</p><p>The balance should happen with that in mind, it does not. </p><p>/trolling off</p>

[Auxillery]

<p>Let me bring a PvP perspective into this, Ranger/Assassin > Brig dps 10 fold. Troub/Bard can out dps us (Why and thats {CENSORED}) I might as well get into groups, debuff my target then throw my shoes at it.</p>

[Soul_Dreamer]

<p><p><p>I gave up my Brigand in RoK because their debuffs aren't needed anymore and they have the lowest DPS of the DPS Scouts. I'm also our raid leader and we don't deliberately roll with a Brigand anymore, we do have one in guild but don't notice if he's not online for raids.</p><p>A few classes are being screwed with the "No one class is needed" argument and players being jealous of another classes abilities, so we're all gradually being pulled into some median class that doesn't specialize and can do everything everyone else can. The classes being effected most by this are the classes that haven't evolved much from their roots and specialize in one area (Brigands/Guardians etc). When something is taken away, or given to another class as well the class who originally had it needs to be given something in return.  </p><p>When other classes gained brigand style debuffs the Brigand should have been buffed in other areas.. Assassin getting crit bonus debuff instead of one of the Rogues.. seriously?</p><p>When other tanks gained Guardian like survivability the Guardian should have been buffed in offensive/utility. </p><p>Traditionally the specialists where the needed classes, now the Jack of all trade classes can do everything almost as well as all the specialists so there is no longer a requirement for the specialists.</p></p></p>

[Striikor]

<p><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Traditionally the specialists where the needed classes, now the Jack of all trade classes can do everything almost as well as all the specialists so there is no longer a requirement for the specialists.</p></blockquote><p>Spot on, they have hosed the roles so badly that EQ2 is is less and less role play every update. It is almost to the point that tanks and healers can do full groups of themselves. "Tank needed for Tank group!" "Healer needed for Healer group!" </p><p>Today you could seriously run a zone with 4 tanks a bard and a chanter or 4 healers a bard and a chanter. Leaves a lot of roles out IMO. What class is unable to do DPS and debuffing today? What is the actual need for debuffing or DPS specialists?</p>

[Keianna]

<p>I couldnt agree more.  I am one of the lowest DPS scouts in the guild.  The only scouts I beat are the undergeared Dirges (who either have low skills or die too many times), the other Brigand, and a couple of the new scouts.I sometimes beat the Troub, but not consistently.</p><p>Could it be I am not in the Dirge group gaining their benefits? Possibly, but I dont count that fact. (troub is in the caster group and ranger in my group).</p><p>My skills are mastered, AAs to additionally increase dmg, as well as adornment modifiers, and I am still low compared to them.I remember we used to be up at the top, and bards were at the bottom end (but they were there for buffs/debuffs, not dps).  Now, like stated above, we arent much of a benefit.I have a 90assassin and not even trying, I can beat my brig dps, and assassin isnt anywhere near as equipped yet.</p><p>Hope they figure something out soon before I shelf my favorite character...</p>

[yzyh]

<p>well in the past few years it seem tha SoE just deleted the Tier 3 DPS.</p><p>befour you used to have 3 dps tier I,d say</p><p>1) pure dps (wiz,lock,assassin)</p><p>2)dps with a few utility and the gimped pure dps class (brigand,swash, necro,conj,ranger,brawler)</p><p>3)DPS class with high utility and tank/healer (bards,  chanter, warriors etc)</p><p>but now bards DPS is on par with swashbuckle so bether then brigand, enchanter can parse easely as good as a brigand but the problem is that birgand debuff are now next to useless while bards and enchanter still the most needed class in  a raid.</p><p>Also beeing one of the rare DPS class without real AoE damage ability realy [Removed for Content] brigand. I mean my paladin out damage brigand in most instance because pal do have a way more AoE skills then brig.</p><p>My brigand still hella fun to play solo. But just never use a DPS programe or you'll be disapointed.</p>

[Striikor]

<p><cite>yzyh wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>well in the past few years it seem tha SoE just deleted the Tier 3 DPS.</p><p>befour you used to have 3 dps tier I,d say</p><p>1) pure dps (wiz,lock,assassin)</p><p>2)dps with a few utility and the gimped pure dps class (brigand,swash, necro,conj,ranger,brawler)</p><p>3)DPS class with high utility and tank/healer (bards,  chanter, warriors etc)</p><p>but now bards DPS is on par with swashbuckle so bether then brigand, enchanter can parse easely as good as a brigand but the problem is that birgand debuff are now next to useless while bards and enchanter still the most needed class in  a raid.</p><p>Also beeing one of the rare DPS class without real AoE damage ability realy [Removed for Content] brigand. I mean my paladin out damage brigand in most instance because pal do have a way more AoE skills then brig.</p><p>My brigand still hella fun to play solo. But just never use a DPS programe or you'll be disapointed.</p></blockquote><p>Actually for the first few years Rangers were the top DPS. But yes it was at once point:</p><p>T1= Sorcerers and Predators</p><p>T2=Conjurors, Brawlers and Rogues</p><p>T3=Bards, and Druids ....</p><p>Zerkers SK's ?</p><p>T4=the rest</p>

[Jeckyl]

<p>can we at least get some sort of an official response, that the Debuff  Redundancy is even getting looked at or thought about at all?</p>

[nostra]

<p>Dev's please look at our class, we have definitely fallen behind in the dps and utility category.  All these "brigands are great" posts do not help the cause. I love my brigand, but they are redundant right now and need to be balanced and the only way for this to happen is for people to voice their concerns.  There is also a forum on eq2flames that discusses some other possible "fixes" for the class.  I have never posted before, but would like to give my support to those attempting to get the devs to take a look at brigs.  I think some of our main activists have either quit the game or changed chars, just because people are not complaining does not mean that we do not need to be looked at.</p><p>An official response from a dev would be nice.</p><p>Thank you.</p><p><strong>Nostrathalas</strong> - Nagafen 90 Brig</p>

[Apiar]

<p><cite>nostra wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dev's please look at our class, we have definitely fallen behind in the dps and utility category.  All these "brigands are great" posts do not help the cause. I love my brigand, but they are redundant right now and need to be balanced and the only way for this to happen is for people to voice their concerns.  There is also a forum on eq2flames that discusses some other possible "fixes" for the class.  I have never posted before, but would like to give my support to those attempting to get the devs to take a look at brigs.  I think some of our main activists have either quit the game or changed chars, just because people are not complaining does not mean that we do not need to be looked at.</p><p>An official response from a dev would be nice.</p><p>Thank you.</p><p><strong>Nostrathalas</strong> - Nagafen 90 Brig</p></blockquote><p>This...dev acknowledgement of the issues would be nice.  With the flurry changes incoming, brigs will fall further behind the other scout classes in DPS.  Something needs to be done.  Brigs are not all that desirable in 6 man groups that aoe pull.  If your not an AOE class, then groups want uber DPS.  Brigs don't have a role anymore.</p>

[Flobdeth]

<p><cite>Apiar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This...dev acknowledgement of the issues would be nice.  With the flurry changes incoming, brigs will fall further behind the other scout classes in DPS.  Something needs to be done.  Brigs are not all that desirable in 6 man groups that aoe pull.  If your not an AOE class, then groups want uber DPS.  Brigs don't have a role anymore.</p></blockquote><p>+1 <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Only time they speak about brigs is when they want to take somthing from the class</p>

[ShadyCharacter]

<p>With many changes (including but not limited to the resist consolidation, AoE encounter and the upcoming flurry/MA and off hand proc changes) other classes have been gaining utility while Brigs not only have not gained any utility, they have lost a lot of what they did have. This would be ok if they (as a wise poster above pointed out the correlation between utility and dps) if the dps was there to make up for it. But it simply isn't, Swashies have more utility and more dps in both AoE and Single target environments (If anything Brigs should have more dps in both situations but I would settle for the mythical and completely unrepresented Swashies better at AoE, Brigs better at single). Almost every class apart from healers have seen larger dps gains than Brigands, who were already suffering from the "your debuffs are leet" cop out, and are falling further and further behind with every major change. Swashies are only the tip of the iceburg (and the most convenient comparisson) and more classes are making larger strides in dps and utility leaving Brigands to stagnate.These changes need to be looked at. The implications are clear, and they are being communicated widely by many Brigands. Ignoring these points is frankly at best rank incompetence and unprofessional. In fact about the only good thing to happen to Brigands in the last few years is Dance of Metal, which is shared by Swashbucklers so can hardly be counted. Still all things said, I will never betray my Brig to a Swash. I wish however, I could say with as much conviction that I would continue to play this game but I can't honestly do that as the contribution to my group and raid is being undercut by things outside of my control and as such it is limiting the enjoyment I get out of this game.</p>

[Peston]

<p>I'm gonna have to say that it is sad if a Swashbuckler is out parsing a Brigand on a single target. A Swashbuckler always has and always will beat a Brigand on an AoE fight. But on single target? You should have that Swashbuckler by atleast 8 to 10k easy. </p>

[lazlo1]

<p><cite>Peston wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm gonna have to say that it is sad if a Swashbuckler is out parsing a Brigand on a single target. A Swashbuckler always has and always will beat a Brigand on an AoE fight. But on single target? You should have that Swashbuckler by atleast 8 to 10k easy. </p></blockquote><p>No way a brig with equal gear and group will out dps a swash by 8k on any real target. Swash will have about the same dps on a single target and own AOE targets.</p><p>The only time you will out parse a swash is if the fight is very short fight and all your CAs are up. Brigs have more front loaded DPS than a swash.</p><p>When brigs are in a non dirge group, brigs dps about the same as a dirge over time. In a group with a dirge brigs can stay ahead of bards and illys buts thats about it. oh i forgot healers.</p><p>Its pretty grim right now for the brig class.</p><p>1. Hard to play because many CAs are narrow back hit areas. Mob position changes kills dps</p><p>2. Single target dps is only OK even if played well. Lowest of all non util / healer classes</p><p>3. AOE dps is very bad</p><p>4. Dps Debufs are not needed / very useful in group content</p><p>5. Agro issues without the dps to show for it</p><p>There is a reason it is the least played class. I consider brigs a dps class, just a crappy one.</p><p>I heard the next expansion brigs are only getting worse. No bufs what so eva...</p>

[Vincex]

<p></p><p >I am a casual player, I don`t have the best gear and I am probably not exactly the best player tbh.<span>  </span>It took a long time for me to level my brig and max out his AAs.<span>  </span>Now when I finally get to the max level I find that everyone out damages me including the dirges.<span>  </span>I am not sure if I have the time or patience to level another class.</p> <p ><span> </span>I get embarrassed when anyone does a phrase of my DPS.<span>  </span>I mean let’s be honest if you’re looking for a DPS class for a group why choose a brig? Every other DPS class will out damage you.<span>  </span>If you’re looking for utility you would pick a chanter or bard.<span>  </span>So why pick a brig? Outside of a raid what do they actually do?<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Dareena]

<p><cite>Vincex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am a casual player, I don`t have the best gear and I am probably not exactly the best player tbh.<span>  </span>It took a long time for me to level my brig and max out his AAs.<span>  </span>Now when I finally get to the max level I find that everyone out damages me including the dirges.<span>  </span>I am not sure if I have the time or patience to level another class.</p><p><span> </span>I get embarrassed when anyone does a phrase of my DPS.<span>  </span>I mean let’s be honest if you’re looking for a DPS class for a group why choose a brig? Every other DPS class will out damage you.<span>  </span>If you’re looking for utility you would pick a chanter or bard.<span>  </span>So why pick a brig? Outside of a raid what do they actually do?<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>What do we do outside of raids?  We're soloing to cash grind for buying looting rights and M1 off of the broker.  It's basically an unofficial Brigand requirement to be fully mastered out, have 250 AA, and the deadliest gear possible.  This means that we have to work far harder to fullfill a dps role.  Yet we can still contribute heroic instance benefits with all of our debuffs and a decent Brigand can usually hold their own weight in the dps department. </p><p>Unfortunately we're like Brawler tanks.  People always used to say that a Brawler tank basically had to have gear that was superior to most of the part by at least one grade for the Brawler to effectively do their job.  The same rule just applies to Brigand in the dps class role.</p>

[lazlo1]

<p><cite>Vincex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am a casual player, I don`t have the best gear and I am probably not exactly the best player tbh.<span>  </span>It took a long time for me to level my brig and max out his AAs.<span>  </span>Now when I finally get to the max level I find that everyone out damages me including the dirges.<span>  </span>I am not sure if I have the time or patience to level another class.</p> <p><span> </span>I get embarrassed when anyone does a phrase of my DPS.<span>  </span>I mean let’s be honest if you’re looking for a DPS class for a group why choose a brig? Every other DPS class will out damage you.<span>  </span>If you’re looking for utility you would pick a chanter or bard.<span>  </span>So why pick a brig? Outside of a raid what do they actually do?<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>If you dont have alot of masters I would recomend betraying to a swash. In groups swashs are alot better class.  Its not even close. This may change in the new expansion but currently AOE dps rules the day.  Swashs get hate transfer which is nice. Our debufs dont show on parses and for the most part dont do much in groups cause the mobs die fast anyway.  Most the brigs i know betrayed, quit or changed to a dif char.</p><p>That said.</p><p>You should be ahead of a dirge in a group with a dirge.</p><p>1. Make sure you understand your CAs and what order to do them.</p><p>2. Make sure your AAs are assigned to get max dps.</p><p>3. Get 2 good weapons.</p><p>4. all spells MUST be adept3 ( cant remember new name) and master if possible</p><p>Other that weapons I would not get any gear right now. If history serves, all gear is gona become obsolete in a couple weeks with the expansion. ala crit mit screw. Im sure SOE is gona do some mechanic change that will ruin all current gear. I laugh at all the suckers buying fabled raid gear in channel for multi hundred plat.  It will be <= legendary in 3-4 weeks.</p><p>There is good info in the eq2flames brig section. You have to dig thru a bunch of jerks posting, but the info is good.</p>

[Hilt]

<p><cite>Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Are brigands are dps class?  Yes, I know that it sounds like a very dumb question.  Yet in the top tier of the game, I'm starting to hear increasingly more common comments that say <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">brigands aren't a dps class</span></strong>.  What the heck!!??</p><p>I've played a brigand since RoK and it's my main.  My character is always rushing towards the AA cap and grabbing masters left and right.  It's not like my character is just under powered, even if I don't have the best of the top end gear since I switched to just PUG raiding back during TSO.  While people who see me in action seem to be usually satisfied with my dps rate and party contributions, it's like that no longer matters.  That's what has me confused.</p><p>Somewhere at about the middle of TSO, I started to see an unusual occurance.  If a PUG heroic group was forming and was asking for more dps classes (of any kind), sometimes I would get turned down on principle because of my class.  "I'm sorry, but we already have a brigand already."  "I'm sorry, but we're asking for a dps class."  Umm...  Well those were random responses.  Thankfully they came from only a small group of people on my server and I quickly learned who they were.</p><p>Yet now in SF, I'm seeing this trend continue and expand.  At times, I've even been asked why I haven't betrayed to swashbuckler since it would noticeably improve my parse and give me the desireability of a  threat transfer class.  PUG heroic and raid groups are turning me down far more often, even though I'm far more powerful this many months into SF than I was (comparitively) in TSO.  From what I can gather, brigands exist as some kind of debuff bot and theoretically don't really contribute much more of value to a group / raid.</p><p>Now I still get a lot of people who are happy or thrilled to have me along.  In some respects, it's helping since I'm slowly running into less brigands while I'm refusing to betray.  Yet at this point, I have to wonder.  Will this trend of "brigands can't dps" continue to grow larger in the coming months?  I just don't know, but I consider it to be a real possibility.</p><p>Are any of you all experiencing similar issues these days?  I'm trying to figure out if LDL is showing signs of the general trend or if we're out in left field.</p></blockquote><p>We're not a DPS class. We're a debuff class...</p>

[Dementor]

<p>yes we are a DPS class, second tier. when it comes to pvp and or BG's, my brig usually doesnt have a problem with the first tier DPS'ers. Our job as brigs in a pvp role ( BG's usually ) is to aggravate, frustrate, and keep our opponents from doing there job and they do that quite well with there stun locks and debuffs. Sometimes we're not out there just for the kill. our job makes it easier for everybody else to do there job.</p>

[Xarc]

Clearly people posting that brigands cant dps do not know how to play the class.

[Grumble69]

<p>Brig is not an exceptionally hard class to play.  If you have any divine knowledge that significantly ups damage to first tier, please do share.  Otherwise help yourself to a cup of STFUp.  I've got decent gear.  Almost 270 AAs.  Almost have masters for everything.  ...but getting tired of where I end up on the DPS chart.</p>

[Apiar]

<p><cite>Craxx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Clearly people posting that brigands cant dps do not know how to play the class.</blockquote><p>Really Craxx, do share your secret.  Because in every raid we run, I am out dpsed by sorcs, conjis, necros, rangers, and sins.  So on the DPS chart I fall about 5th or 6th and quite often can hit 120K dps on mobs and that's with 25% flurry and 400% ma.  If you are out dpsing those classes, you must not have very good players in those classes! </p><p>Rangers can melee auto attack harder then us and they are primarily ranged.  A good swash can out parse brigs.  A good dirge/troub can be very close.  Very good coercers/illys can be very close.</p>

[Toxicz]

<p>Don't listen to him hes crap. Brigs are good dps if played 100% right, which very few people know how to do. However is you played with other pred's, sorc's, summoner's that know there class 100% as well, you'll get owned and theres nothing you can do about it.</p>

[Grumble69]

<p><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Don't listen to him hes crap. Brigs are good dps if played 100% right, which very few people know how to do. However is you played with other pred's, sorc's, summoner's that know there class 100% as well, you'll get owned and theres nothing you can do about it.</p></blockquote><p>Well, that's the catch-22.  Who groups up with a bunchy of crappy players just to look good on their parse?  Generally, we group with players at about our own playing level (or better).  And when you hold those things constant, we tend to be a bit lacking.  ...nothing exceptional that couldn't be replaced by another class.</p>

[Surculus]

<p><cite>Apiar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Craxx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Clearly people posting that brigands cant dps do not know how to play the class.</blockquote><p>Really Craxx, do share your secret.  Because in every raid we run, I am out dpsed by sorcs, conjis, necros, rangers, and sins.  So on the DPS chart I fall about 5th or 6th and quite often can hit 120K dps on mobs and that's with 25% flurry and 400% ma.  If you are out dpsing those classes, you must not have very good players in those classes!</p><p>Rangers can melee auto attack harder then us and they are primarily ranged.  A good swash can out parse brigs.  A good dirge/troub can be very close.  Very good coercers/illys can be very close.</p></blockquote><p>Personally I agree with Craxx here. I have no trouble being placed where I should be with my DPS. (Preds > Rogues > Utility. IMO), I'm not the best Brig out there but I'm also not the worst. Sunder has helped out DPS a lot and allows us to topple Pred DPS if they're slackin =P.</p><p><p><cite>Nazon@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No way a brig with equal gear and group will out dps a swash by 8k on any real target. Swash will have about the same dps on a single target and own AOE targets.</p><p>The only time you will out parse a swash is if the fight is very short fight and all your CAs are up. Brigs have more front loaded DPS than a swash.</p><p>When brigs are in a non dirge group, brigs dps about the same as a dirge over time. In a group with a dirge brigs can stay ahead of bards and illys buts thats about it. oh i forgot healers.</p><p>Its pretty grim right now for the brig class.</p><p>1. Hard to play because many CAs are narrow back hit areas. Mob position changes kills dps</p><p>2. Single target dps is only OK even if played well. Lowest of all non util / healer classes</p><p>3. AOE dps is very bad</p><p>4. Dps Debufs are not needed / very useful in group content</p><p>5. Agro issues without the dps to show for it</p><p>There is a reason it is the least played class. I consider brigs a dps class, just a crappy one.</p><p>I heard the next expansion brigs are only getting worse. No bufs what so eva...</p></blockquote></p><p>Yes this an old post on this thread but whatever..</p><p>Now I agree with you here 95% but if Brigand's get their back attacks and other positionals changed so that the positional requirement is no longer needed I will hunt you down and Bum Rush (Master) you for even mentioning the idea. HARD IS GOOD, I don't want to play a [Removed for Content] easy mode class! It's one of the things that makes Brigand's more of a challenge, fun to play than the Swashie side of Rogues (Again, in my opinion of playing both classes). They're great DPS yes, better than us in group encounters yes but I just find them boring =/.</p><p>AOE DPS has kinda been fixed a little now with so many adorns/buffs adding to AOE Auto attack. (Mine sits at about 63% with an Illy in the group.) as well as the double up of Cornered and Baroom.</p><p>DPS Debuffs not needed? Heh need everything you can get when you hit hardmode mate...</p><p>Agro issues? Yeah there can still be some but it really does depend on your MT/OT. Only time I find myself pulling non stop is if I spike too hard with DOM/Sunder on a mob that doesn't have a ton of tank hate and I'm talking 140-170k parses here.</p>

[Slittherss]

<p>they are a mid T2 dps class designed to debuff, but unfortunately in SS with every class having so many debuffs, it kind of mutes the point of us. We have very few useful debuffs that other classes don't already have similiar. Our dps is substandard for what we are. It won't be long before i just give up on the class and just make my monk my raid main and use Reckless stance cause i can do alot more dps and make up for the loss with more dmg. Sony needs to fix classes bad, but all they seem to do is further make already superman classes even more powerful and leave other classes clinging for the crumbs. Brigand is a fun class, great idea, but now into Skyshrine seems to be a very muke point.</p>

[lazlo1]

<p><cite>Slittherss wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>they are a mid T2 dps class designed to debuff, but unfortunately in SS with every class having so many debuffs, it kind of mutes the point of us. We have very few useful debuffs that other classes don't already have similiar. Our dps is substandard for what we are. It won't be long before i just give up on the class and just make my monk my raid main and use Reckless stance cause i can do alot more dps and make up for the loss with more dmg. Sony needs to fix classes bad, but all they seem to do is further make already superman classes even more powerful and leave other classes clinging for the crumbs. Brigand is a fun class, great idea, but now into Skyshrine seems to be a very muke point.</p></blockquote><p>I still like playing my brig but agree with much of this... Beastlords are a clear example of being way OP. But brigs are a fun and not so boring class to play. Timing jousts with AR is always exciting...</p><p>The debufs do help early in the fight, but not sure it worth our slightly lower dps. Reforge helps our AOE dps, but its still an issue for brigs. Overall our dps is only slightly lower than I think it should be.</p><p>Doing single target trash in POW i can top the parse now and then so thats fun. Brigs can still spike pretty high when everything lines up. ( Dom and Sunder )</p><p>The good news is the agro transfer we get. It works pretty good just wish it refreshed a little faster. FYI if you take strongarm over mercy you are doing it wrong... Sunder is prob wrong also, but I like topping the parse <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><a href="http://u.eq2wire.com/soe/character_detail/884763980644" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://u.eq2wire.com/soe/character_...il/884763980644</a></p><p>I take alot of HP options which some people think isnt needed but i like...</p>

[Xarc]

I would like to touch again on brig dps now that we are in the late days of the SS xpac. Brig DPS is terribad compared to other scout types (and some reckless fighters).