6/28/10 - Rangers officially "fine" [Archive]

Sydares

06-28-2010, 09:31 PM

Xelgad wrote:The reason that rangers have not seen tweaks to their class is because according to our investigation and data from other sources (including parses) there are rangers that are able to parse even with assassins. When their abilities are timed correctly, and standing in the correct range, rangers are a mighty force. Obviously gear and buffs play a factor as well. That isn’t to say that there will be no adjustments to rangers or mechanics that work differently for bows in the future. <a href="http://eq2wire.feldoncentral.com/2010/06/28/eleven-questions-for-xelgad-eq2wire-exclusive/#more-4595" target="_blank">EQ2Wire - Eleven Questions for Xelgad</a>So, in case anyone was wondering, the most efficient betrayal is to Neriak, doing the spider quest repeatedly.

kartikeya

06-28-2010, 09:41 PM

I had one of those 'I'm laughing because if I don't I'm going to cry' reactions to this. I just. I mean. Okay. Well there we have it. Clearly, every top level ranger in the game, especially those who betrayed because they still wanted to be able to get a raid slot, were just doing it wrong. Clearly, folks, were just not standing in the right place. Clearly it's a timing issue. Clearly there's a magical spot to stand when fighting raid mobs that causes the game to ignore basic math.Because, even though melee autoattack does more DPS than ranged, even before things like flurry and AE autoattack, and even though ranger combat art damage is unbelievably pathetic in comparison to assassins, and even though bow damage ratings are stupidly low, and even though our mythical buff is absolutely ridiculously underpowered, somehow, magically, rangers can keep up with other DPS classes in the magical fun land of sugar and happy that is SOE's brain. I get it now! If we just time things right and stand in the right spot, two plus two will equal five and we'll be able to keep up with classes who have the advantage on us in every way, shape and form imaginable.Sorry guys. I'm afraid we're just not elite enough to figure out the mystical formula that will allow us to play our class effectively. We'd best leave that to the privileged few.Of course, I asked for an answer, and I got one. I don't like the answer, but I did get one. Thank you, SOE, for that. It really lets me have a clear view of my choices from here on out.

glowsintheda

06-28-2010, 10:35 PM

Well looks like it is time to switch mains. my ranger will still be fun for soloing and possibly the occasional group, but been playing a lot more of my SK recently anyway. Shame he isn't nearly as geared as my ranger but he has been a lot more fun to play recently.

Writer Cal

06-28-2010, 10:40 PM

Well, thank you kindly for finally making a statement on the matter, Xelgad. We've been asking for some sort of response, and we got one. At least we are no longer in the dark on it and can know that the class will remain in its current state for the most part. This allows players whose mains are rangers to know what their choices are, and we can now proceed forward with those choices, instead of holding back and waiting for changes that are not coming. We now know we can either continue with the class as is, betray or change mains, or to put our subscription money into another gaming company.So. Thank you.

glowsintheda

06-28-2010, 10:58 PM

On the plus side, bonus exp weekend coming up for those of you wanting to level up new mains

Boise

06-28-2010, 11:38 PM

How can you say this??? Have you even seen some of the assassin parses??? Have you seen some of their asassinate hits (almost 400k)???I would love to see some of this data personally because I do not believe you. I can post some parses from flames and show you the large gap between the classes.You just basically killed the class with that statement.

Krodos

06-29-2010, 12:04 AM

All I can say is wow... Where the F#$^ do they get thier numbers from?Clearly when I group with [Removed for Content] wearing worse gear than me, and doing 10-20K or more DPS then me in groups and raids there's obviously nothing wrong with that at all...I don't claim to be the best at the class, or even have any real decent gear (mostly BG, and T1 SF raid gear) when I get in a decent group I can hit 20-22k regularly (which I think is doing pretty good given the gear) But when an assassin comes in wearing 90% legendary gear, and is regularly hitting 20-25K, and heaven forbid he has the same amount of gear I do then they push like 30-36k regularly... Clearly clearly it's just becasue he knows how to play the toon better then I....Man I must just suck at the class... Thanks for pointing that out XelgadEdit: I Figured it out!! He didn't say WHAT gear and AA that his 'rangers vs assassins' compare at, No doubt those Uber fully T4 SF raid geared 250 AA rangers are holding thier own VS those uber SF legenday 180AA Assassins Good for them!

Nevao

06-29-2010, 12:36 AM

<cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote>I had one of those 'I'm laughing because if I don't I'm going to cry' reactions to this. I just. I mean. Okay. Well there we have it. Clearly, every top level ranger in the game, especially those who betrayed because they still wanted to be able to get a raid slot, were just doing it wrong. Clearly, folks, were just not standing in the right place. Clearly it's a timing issue. Clearly there's a magical spot to stand when fighting raid mobs that causes the game to ignore basic math.Because, even though melee autoattack does more DPS than ranged, even before things like flurry and AE autoattack, and even though ranger combat art damage is unbelievably pathetic in comparison to assassins, and even though bow damage ratings are stupidly low, and even though our mythical buff is absolutely ridiculously underpowered, somehow, magically, rangers can keep up with other DPS classes in the magical fun land of sugar and happy that is SOE's brain. I get it now! If we just time things right and stand in the right spot, two plus two will equal five and we'll be able to keep up with classes who have the advantage on us in every way, shape and form imaginable.Sorry guys. I'm afraid we're just not elite enough to figure out the mystical formula that will allow us to play our class effectively. We'd best leave that to the privileged few.Of course, I asked for an answer, and I got one. I don't like the answer, but I did get one. Thank you, SOE, for that. It really lets me have a clear view of my choices from here on out.</blockquote>I simply don't know what to say at this point. I'm completely flabbergasted. An entire community apparently has no idea what it is supposed to do or just the right way to do it. Our opinions are apparently meaningless and and we are too stupid to figure out the game. That or we are completely missing all the appropriate gear.The only thing I can think of is that they are basing this opinion of simple group content or easy mode raid content (in terms of raiding) or off previous tiers. That or the amount of effort for an Assassin to reach certain numbers compared to what we have to do is completely irrelevant. Who cares if AA's and CA's are all skewed in their favor, some ranger (or some small group of them) somewhere can parse just as well so we're not going to make any significant changes even if a large number of Rangers can't .Thank you Xelgad. Glad you finally told us, but seriously if you're going to tell us we have no idea what we're talking about, or that our perceptions are completely off base, why could you not at least have come and told us in the official forums and not on some fan site? Obviously we don't agree with your studies, but I'm just as disapointed that after three years of us trying to convince the devs that this how it gets communicated to us...

Solaar Wynd

06-29-2010, 12:57 AM

<cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote>Xelgad wrote:The reason that rangers have not seen tweaks to their class is because according to our investigation and data from other sources (including parses) there are rangers that are able to parse even with assassins. When their abilities are timed correctly, and standing in the correct range, rangers are a mighty force. Obviously gear and buffs play a factor as well. That isn’t to say that there will be no adjustments to rangers or mechanics that work differently for bows in the future. <a href="http://eq2wire.feldoncentral.com/2010/06/28/eleven-questions-for-xelgad-eq2wire-exclusive/#more-4595" target="_blank">EQ2Wire - Eleven Questions for Xelgad</a>So, in case anyone was wondering, the most efficient betrayal is to Neriak, doing the spider quest repeatedly.</blockquote>Maybe Xelgad would be willing to demonstrate these dps techniques for all of us scrubs who obviously can't play our class.Really, I must insist. What timings? What ranges? If there's some secret way to play Rangers that give them Assassin dps, please let us know! How?! How?!Hey, I know! SOE could offer Ranger lessons through the Station Store! YES! Win / Win all around! Sony makes more money off of us and we become the uber Rangers of Assassin Power!Sigh...

Boise

06-29-2010, 01:21 AM

The problem is Xelgad does not understand how rangers are played and used in a raid setting (where our dps sucks).1) Rangers do not have a self DPS buff like assassins. So, we are dependant on certain classes to max out our auto attack like Coercers, dirges, and Inq.2) Rangers are never thrown into the MT (main tank group) because we do not have a hate transfer utility like assassins. Therefore, rangers will not get that huge HP boost that assassins will get in a MT group. So, when rangers are within the "sweet" spot, they are usually dead due to AoEs or in this case...lack of HP. With that said, are rangers expected to sacrifice dps AAs in order to get HP AAs? Kinda stupid?3) Ranger do not have a chain CA ability that allows them to chain cast (fast) CAs in order to build up for their big attack: Fatal Followup.4) Assassinate is doing almost 400k in damage in comparison to Sniper Shot which is doing @255k. That is not right.5) Assassins have much faster casting CAs and better refreshers than rangers.

Neiloch

06-29-2010, 01:51 AM

Xelgad wrote:The reason that rangers have not seen tweaks to their class is because according to our investigation and data from other sources (including parses) We've been investagting for years. How long have you, your person, been doing it? Tell me how long you have been raiding 12 hours a week disecting every hour of it.there are rangers that are able to parse even with assassins. Crap assassins. Another flaw in your research. Yes if you take the worst assassins and put them against the best rangers, the rangers will win. You put them up against the best assassins I seriously doubt they will come close to even.When their abilities are timed correctly, and standing in the correct range, rangers are a mighty force. So you mean when we attack around auto attack, have a good rotation and stand at 4-5 meters so we can do all our CA's without moving? Yeah every decent ranger i know does this already. Try again.Obviously gear and buffs play a factor as well. That isn’t to say that there will be no adjustments to rangers or mechanics that work differently for bows in the future.True. Though the only way I can put out what I would call proper numbers is in a severely stacked group. Even then you give a ranger, assassin and wizard their ideal setups, rangers will come in third every time. <a href="http://eq2wire.feldoncentral.com/2010/06/28/eleven-questions-for-xelgad-eq2wire-exclusive/#more-4595" target="_blank">EQ2Wire - Eleven Questions for Xelgad</a>lol.What ever data you are basing this on, is not available to concerned rangers, or we have never ever looked in the right place for it. Or your basing it on bad/incorrect data in the sense of scenarios. Look at high end raids. And don't average it out with low end raids, PvP, BG's or groups. JUST high end raids. And don't look at your calculators, equations and spreadsheets either, those things have been spouting out bad numbers and items for years. And I don't want to hear WORD ONE about PvP or soloing, I MIGHT entertain numbers from groups. Honestly the only way I can see this being true is rangers that are 'playing correctly' and performing well either never ever visit this forum or the 'other' forum, or don't know they are performing well for some reason.This is why I hate it when people use averages. If you were able to sample from several 10's of thousands of rangers and the same amount of assassins you might have some decent numbers to go on, otherwise averages aren't going to be good enough.I submit this be put in the general forum as well. Because not only is he calling the ranger community wrong, he is calling the bulk of the EQ2 community wrong. You think guilds don't take rangers because of personal reasons? they know they can do just as well as assassins, they just don't like stick throwers taking up all their harvest depot stuff and void warped wood. Some unexplainable vibe they give off people just don't like that's out of the dev teams control?Only way what he said can be true without him just being flat out wrong is if his standards are much much lower than playing, raiding rangers. He sees rangers beat assassins a few select times, and otherwise not getting completely blown out of the water by other DPS classes and thinks its good enough.

Writer Cal

06-29-2010, 04:43 AM

Yes. Well. Maybe I should just stand at max range and wildly spam moar buttons in any random order. 'Cause this whole stand in the sweet spot, timing CAs between auto-attacks, and using a good rotation thing isn't working out so well.And about the buffs. Sure, our dps goes up with the right buffs. I won't even get into whether or not it goes up enough, since it's pretty much a he said/she said deal when we don't know Xelgad's uber ranger numbers. But we rarely ever get those buffs because we're not put in the right groups, because no one gives a crap about our utility, Focus Aim and the hawk-that-dies-when-mobs-sneeze. No one notices. No one cares. No one ever says, "It'd be nice if we had a ranger for that" the way they say "It'd be nice if we had an assassin or swashy for hate transfer." No one ever says, "Yays, the ranger cast focus aim!" the way they say, "Yays, the assassin gave me poison!" It's utility that's invisible or not desired by players.I can stop casting Focus Aim and the hawk at various points, and the only thing anyone notices is that my own dps goes down without Focus Aim. They don't notice the lack of it and the hawk for their own performance at all.And when we are put in the right groups, preferred buffs go to assassins, rogues, dirges, or fighters, because either everyone believes it will give a greater benefit to most any class but the ranger or it actually does give a greater benefit (flurry, aoe auto-attack) so rangers STILL don't get the same buffage as many other classes. Technically, a ranger can't get the same about of buffage as other scouts because there's no equivalent to make up for the buffs that simply don't work on us due to mechanics.

kartikeya

06-29-2010, 05:17 AM

<cite>Daenee@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>And about the buffs. Sure, our dps goes up with the right buffs. I won't even get into whether or not it goes up enough, since it's pretty much a he said/she said deal when we don't know Xelgad's uber ranger numbers. </blockquote>I can tell you from a great deal of experience that it doesn't. Rangers don't get nearly the gain from those kinds of buffs that any other DPS class does, that's half the reason rangers rarely get put into the groups where they will get those buffs. Our DPS does go up a fair amount, and it's a beautiful thing, but not nearly as much as an assassin or swashy or sorcerer with the right buffs will see. In fact, I have been on raids where I had the most ideal buffs, and the assassin had crap buffs in a crap group. This is the only time I managed to give him any competition, and the swashy and warlock continued to soar far far above us both.This is not rocket science, which is why it's so infuriating. All anyone has to do to see the problem is 1) do their own tests to realize that ranged autoattack does less DPS than melee autoattack, even if you ignore flurry and AE autoattack, and with crap legendary melee weapons versus the mythical, 2) Get a 90 ranger, look at their combat art numbers, look at their mythical buff, look at their AA choices, 3) get a 90 assassin, look at their combat art numbers, look at their mythical buff, look at their AA choices. As a bonus, you can also compare damage ratings between raid bows and raid 2handers, then look at dual wield options. If you can look at that and not see the problem, you failed basic grade school math where you learned certain numbers were greater than other numbers.There is no magical formula that will suddenly net you the necessary DPS. Sure, there are things you can do to perform better, and I'm willing to bet any raiding ranger here already knows them by heart, because we are so desperate to try and keep up and justify a raid slot. I really can't stand this idea that doing decent DPS is a mystical secret that only a precious few can obtain. I hate it when other players spout it, I really don't like it when a dev does. But, well, I'm not sure what else can be done. We've said all that can be said a thousand times over, just since January.

Odysia

06-29-2010, 08:50 AM

<cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote>Xelgad wrote:The reason that rangers have not seen tweaks to their class is because according to our investigation and data from other sources (including parses) there are rangers that are able to parse even with assassins. When their abilities are timed correctly, and standing in the correct range, rangers are a mighty force. Obviously gear and buffs play a factor as well. That isn’t to say that there will be no adjustments to rangers or mechanics that work differently for bows in the future. <a href="http://eq2wire.feldoncentral.com/2010/06/28/eleven-questions-for-xelgad-eq2wire-exclusive/#more-4595" target="_blank">EQ2Wire - Eleven Questions for Xelgad</a></blockquote>Fixed

Nevao

06-29-2010, 09:20 AM

<cite>Odysia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote>Xelgad wrote:The reason that rangers have not seen tweaks to their class is because according to our investigation and data from other sources (including parses) there are rangers that are able to parse even with assassins. When their abilities are timed correctly, and standing in the correct range, rangers are a mighty force. Obviously gear and buffs play a factor as well. That isn’t to say that there will be no adjustments to rangers or mechanics that work differently for bows in the future. <a href="http://eq2wire.feldoncentral.com/2010/06/28/eleven-questions-for-xelgad-eq2wire-exclusive/#more-4595" target="_blank">EQ2Wire - Eleven Questions for Xelgad</a></blockquote>Fixed</blockquote>No, I have no doubt that mechanic fixes are coming for Ranged Flurry and/or Ranged AE Auto Attack. We were told those by Rothgar whom I've never known to give bad information. It might take forever (or in this case 6 months) but it typically happens or he posts and says what changed/why it can't happen. But in the end all Ranged Flurry and Ranged AE Auto Attack are going to do is give us access to tools that every other scout and fighter has, closing that particular avenue of complaint. The core of the Ranger issues is actually much deeper (and deal a good bit with scaling issues and lagging CA's/excessive cast/reuse) and won't be fixed with these. But hey!, we're a pretty mighty force! Just not as mighty as Assassins, Warlocks and Wizards with less utility.Edit: random spelling (though I bet I still missed some)

irbi

06-29-2010, 09:53 AM

His answers is a full nonsense. I'm once again convinced that "this developers" nothing understand in this game.

Krodos

06-29-2010, 11:31 AM

<cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odysia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote>Xelgad wrote:The reason that rangers have not seen tweaks to their class is because according to our investigation and data from other sources (including parses) there are rangers that are able to parse even with assassins. When their abilities are timed correctly, and standing in the correct range, rangers are a mighty force. Obviously gear and buffs play a factor as well. That isn’t to say that there will be no adjustments to rangers or mechanics that work differently for bows in the future. <a href="http://eq2wire.feldoncentral.com/2010/06/28/eleven-questions-for-xelgad-eq2wire-exclusive/#more-4595" target="_blank">EQ2Wire - Eleven Questions for Xelgad</a></blockquote>Fixed</blockquote>No, I have no doubt that mechanic fixes are coming for Ranged Flurry and/or Ranged AE Auto Attack. We were told those by Rothgar whom I've never known to give bad information. It might take forever (or in this case 6 months) but it typically happens or he posts and says what changed/why it can't happen. But in the end all Ranged Flurry and Ranged AE Auto Attack are going to do is give us access to tools that every other scout and fighter has, closing that particular avenue of complaint. The core of the Ranger issues is actually much deeper (and deal a good bit with scaling issues and lagging CA's/excessive cast/reuse) and won't be fixed with these. But hey!, we're a pretty mighty force! Just not as might as Assassins, Warlocks and Wizards with less utility.</blockquote>You forgot, Coercers, Necros, Conjys, Swashes, Brigs, SKs, Zerkers (those 2 in AOE fights.).. ahh well lets just say 75% of the classes. WITH less utility.. But hey it's just because we're not standing in the right place.

Chanson

06-29-2010, 11:40 AM

<cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote>Xelgad wrote:The reason that rangers have not seen tweaks to their class is because according to our investigation and data from other sources (including parses) there are rangers (the uber raid-geared ones) that are able to parse even with assassins (the casual legendary geared ones). When their abilities are timed correctly, and standing in the correct range, rangers are a mighty force. Obviously gear and buffs play a factor as well. That isn’t to say that there will be no adjustments to rangers or mechanics that work differently for bows in the future. <a href="http://eq2wire.feldoncentral.com/2010/06/28/eleven-questions-for-xelgad-eq2wire-exclusive/#more-4595" target="_blank">EQ2Wire - Eleven Questions for Xelgad</a>So, in case anyone was wondering, the most efficient betrayal is to Neriak, doing the spider quest repeatedly.</blockquote>Seriously, why do you/we/any of us think they care? Yeah we don't like it, but how many people have really quit the game, vs. how many of us are just playing alts? They are still getting our money even if they don't fix it.

Noob1974

06-29-2010, 12:48 PM

I give xelgad the benefit of a doubt as i find a very strange not making a statement on the official forum and using the "our data" argument.I have a feeling that devs dont want to waste much time and resources on class balance and rather put the resources in the upcoming Velious Expansion. I would even go sofar that his statement is reaction on that " Radio Silence on class balances" thread. It was said that class balances only happene in GUs and hes only saying therers is not much coming in GU57 like the last 10 GUs.........Another thought is when they ever balanced classes in the past , SK's and Conjys comes to mind, they have overdone it and somehow they fear opd ranger.The question is if he uses the PVP/BG/Solo Argument, because than although im not an advocate of nerfing other classes, nerf 5-10 classes (inlc. SK's and such) and judge all the same.Thats the benefit of a doubt.If hes for real, than hes one of the most ignorant persons i ever encountered, hiding behing his data while the player base can prove otherwise.With a statement like this he single handly destroyed a class RAIDWISE !!!!!! No one in their right mind is leveling a ranger for high end purposes....I would preferably have an explantion by smokejumper as to why ONE class gets blatlanty disadvantaged over the last years and the devs are ignorant to it.

Laenai

06-29-2010, 12:58 PM

Dear Xelgad,Nut up and roll a ranger. You just destroyed an entire class with that statement.

Striikor

06-29-2010, 01:15 PM

Unbelievable!!!!A: The reason that rangers have not seen tweaks to their class is because according to our investigation and data from other sources (including parses) there are rangers that are able to parse even with assassins. When their abilities are timed correctly, and standing in the correct range, rangers are a mighty force. Obviously gear and buffs play a factor as well. That isn’t to say that there will be no adjustments to rangers or mechanics that work differently for bows in the future What a [Removed for Content] joke, occasionally I too run across a ranger (myself) in full raid gear, mastered out and in a group with a dirge troub coercer, warden and inquisitor who can compete with a badly equipped assassin who's in mastercrafted gear and Adept 1's, in the mage group. Hey Xelgad you know what? I see that happen too!He even indicates that 'some' rangers can provide assassin like average parses, Though it says nothing about all Predators being lower on the DPS scale than mages.Xelgad it should be proportional "less utility = more DPS" conversely "more utility = less DPS". Point to a class with less group/raid utility than a Ranger. Then show us how you are offsetting that lack that with our tremendous DPS. I will even accept ivory tower math. Easy to see that your view of class balance and that of the ranger community are vastly different. It is incredible that developers could be so absolutely clueless as to fail to understand that it is the ranger that is put in the Mage or group 4 not the assassin because EVERY OTHER 'DPS' has something to offer the group that they need.It is incredible that developers could be so absolutely clueless as to fail to understand that it is not the assassin topping the parses it is the mages.You say you play a Ranger, for what harvesting? How can you know so little about the reality? How can you understand so little about grouping logic.SOE made DPS a commodity, you can get it anywhere now. Tanks and healers can do good to great DPS. Traditional utility classes compete with predator's for DPS.Predators have to do TOP NOTCH DPS to be viable, PERIOD. Even you indicate that Rangers and assassins are not on par DPS wise (with your qualification of 'some' rangers) let alone in desired utility. And Predators in general are not parsing well against Mages.Xelgad=Major FailNow how the heck to you spell death knell ?UNBELIEVABLE!

Nevao

06-29-2010, 01:56 PM

<cite>Noob1974 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have a feeling that devs dont want to waste much time and resopurces on class balance and rather put the resources in the upcoming Velious Expansion. I would even go sofar that his statement is reaction on that " Radio Silence on class balances" thread. It was said that class balances only happene in GUs and hes only saying therers is not much coming in GU57 like the last 10 GUs.........</blockquote>Now that I've calmed down a bit I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if this was the case. Velious and wanting to get the "New User" experience just right. If I had to make a serious guess as to what happened I would say that they probably pulled out the master design docs and said we're fairly balanced at the baseline and then looked and found that we do excel in certain areas (mostly solo and BGs). The problem is that the most significant amount of complaints and concern deal not with those areas but rather raiding. And when looking at raid balance you can find parses that prove anything you want if you look hard enough and isolate your sampling properly, especially if it's not something you wanted to do to begin with. But it no longer matters. We have expressed our thoughts and concerns and a good number of the non ranger community (or at least the raiding aspect of it) agreed. A large number of our best players have either betrayed so they do more DPS with less work, switched to alts or just quit the game. The dev team is showing that they do not agree and/or simply do not care what we think. As long as that is the case nothing is going to get done and I'm afraid we're going have to wait until we are as broken or worse than Coercers and Summoners were before they can be bothered to take a real look and make adjustments. Better in the end that they spend time and make sure that fighters don't get confused by that taunt button at level 1.

Magnethjelmen2

06-29-2010, 02:45 PM

WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHAT IS GOING ON?How on earth can you pull this on us Xelgad? After so much time... Seriously? I will show you every single parse I have from the last 5 months I have.I will allways lose to an equal assassin in a raid. I CANT BELIVE THIS! JESUSWhy do you think no endgame guilds are looking for rangers? It is a very simple answer. The assassin does more DPS and comes with a pretty nice hate transfer and apply poisons. Did you take a look at what other guilds are recruting here? I am talking endgame raidguilds.Did you even compare our CA's?1. assassin CA's does more dmg2. assassin CA's you can cast faster3. They even have more CA's than the ranger do.HOW IS THAT BALANCED? Its so obvious it is not balanced WHAT so ever. [Removed for Content], I am starting to cry now <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" />Go to your freaking CA database, and fix our CA's. It will take one of your devs 10 mins to fix it. How can it be so hard?I will quote what one of your devs said a couple of months ago about people complaining about the 0m buff.<cite>Fyreflyte wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rangers are not intended to be tanks. The fact that a bow with 0 range was put into the game as a bandaid for a larger class issue is unfortunate, but I'd rather fix the root of the problem than continue to perpetuate it. Nobody is removing your ability to use the mythical bow (which is still 0 range; I am not changing it). If you feel unable to function without a 0 min range bow, the mythical is still a perfectly viable option. The fact remains that rangers are intended to be a ranged class, and and we are going to make some changes that make this more viable than it has been. In the mean time, I am not creating any more 0 range bows. You have a number of abilities to help keep mobs at range; rangers were using these long before any 0 range bow was available.</blockquote>Get your facts and communication togheter @SOE. You admitted that there was a prob. AND NOW YOU PULL THIS BS?Oh yeah, and one more thing while we are at it here Xelgad. WHY, and I repeat WHY! Do you think 90% of the serious endgame rangers betrayed to Assassins? Think about it....

crumpledmonkey

06-29-2010, 03:10 PM

troll here!!what you need to do is get off the forums and learn to play your class.rangers can and do out parse assasins with the same gear and aa on end raiding.I do it all the time and the class is more fun to play.so if you cant cut it then roll to easy mode assasin or LTP.

Ranja

06-29-2010, 03:19 PM

thank you for letting me know I can cancel my sub.

Chanson

06-29-2010, 03:20 PM

<cite>crumpledmonkey wrote:</cite><blockquote>troll here!!what you need to do is get off the forums and learn to play your class.rangers can and do out parse assasins with the same gear and aa on end raiding.I do it all the time and the class is more fun to play.so if you cant cut it then roll to easy mode assasin or LTP.</blockquote>Please post some screenshots of your parses, I'm sure a lot of us would like to see them.

Neiloch

06-29-2010, 03:48 PM

<cite>crumpledmonkey wrote:</cite><blockquote>what you need to do is get off the forums and learn to play your class.rangers can and do out parse assasins with the same gear and aa on end raiding.I do it all the time and the class is more fun to play.so if you cant cut it then roll to easy mode assasin or LTP.</blockquote>This is essentially what I see Xalgad saying. I doubt that was his actual intention but its what his statements seem like. Apparently people who have been complaining for literally years including 'above and beyond' players and contributors like Safana just have no idea how to actually play a ranger.I really want to give him the benefit of the doubt and think he is talking from a 'on average' standpoint including casual and PvP type stuff. Or in the sense of 'good enough' since we are DPS class and aren't getting consistently beat by healers and some other classes in DPS. Even with that margin its still no where even close to correct for results rangers get on raids.

Jaremai

06-29-2010, 03:59 PM

Amongst the angst in this thread I find it funny that some of you are expecting an answer. As should be obvious by them answering to a third party and not to any threads on the official forums, their communication is lacking.Accept that rangers won't change, accept that they won't answer you, and enjoy your life. If that means betraying or quitting, so be it.. but yelling and screaming is only going to get you a sore throat. Speak with your wallet.Yes, I have a ranger, he was my first toon ever in both EQ and EQ2.. I love rangers. Granted.. I don't play him anymore, but he's still on my account. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Chanson

06-29-2010, 04:16 PM

<cite>Jaremai@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Speak with your wallet.</blockquote>The problem is that most people are just playing alts and not cancelling their accounts. There's been forum posts about there being just as many if not more Rangers at level 90 than Assassins. Does this make them equal? No. Does this show that they are still fun to play? I'd say so, it's the reason that I still keep mine around and play with him. They won't fix Rangers because they don't need to fix Rangers, as long as we still have our alts to play with.Now if people really did start speaking with their wallet and cancelling their accounts because of the current state of Rangers, you can bet that they'd be getting fixed quickly. But that won't happen. Rangers will just become the alts we play when not playing our 'main' toons.

Boise

06-29-2010, 04:33 PM

I just want to see this data. Post this data for us and prove us wrong. I want to see parses from rangers and assassins with equal gear, same groups, and equal stats.

Neiloch

06-29-2010, 04:37 PM

To be fair they never said they would up our DPS or utility, they just never really denied it either up until now. So he literally dashed our 'hopes and dreams' for rangers.Their plan is to just give us some mechanic adjustments. Maybe being able to range better and access to mechanics like flurry and auto ae for our bow. Ideally (to them) all getting done without upping our DPS anywhere near what we need to properly compete because they think its fine.Its stupid they are trying to adjust the overall gameplay of rangers when thats one of their only redeeming features they already have, evident by testimonials on several forums and even in this very thread. Wonder if they are going to make it easier to solo content designed for soloing and perform better in PvP while they are at it.

Nevao

06-29-2010, 04:54 PM

LOL. Now that he's specified that according to their parses we're fine he wants "Top End Guild DPS Parses".For those of you that are in said guilds, please post <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=481929" target="_blank">here</a>. While I doubt it will have any effect in the end, at least we'll know we tried.

Laenai

06-29-2010, 04:55 PM

<cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote>LOL. Now that he's specified that according to their parses we fine he wants "Top End Guild DPS Parses".For those of you that are in said guilds, please post <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=481929" target="_blank">here</a>. While I doubt it will have any effect in the end, at least we'll know we tried.</blockquote>*just shakes head*I wonder how many rangers he'll find in them.

Neiloch

06-29-2010, 04:57 PM

He'll find mine, thats for sure. And my methods of tracking it will be exemplary.He's about to get proven a whole lot of wrong.

jjlo69

06-29-2010, 05:22 PM

I AM SO GLAD I BETRAYEDxalgad id personally love to see what data you based this on...casue i was one of the leading rangers WW and trust me when i say this when i betrayed in APP 1's i was already parsing higher then i was as a ranger fully mastered.. and any time you like shoot me a PM and ill explain to your on my vent server or where ever how a SIN > RANGER...Uncle

jjlo69

06-29-2010, 05:23 PM

<cite>Karimonster wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote>LOL. Now that he's specified that according to their parses we fine he wants "Top End Guild DPS Parses".For those of you that are in said guilds, please post <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=481929" target="_blank">here</a>. While I doubt it will have any effect in the end, at least we'll know we tried.</blockquote>*just shakes head*I wonder how many rangers he'll find in them.</blockquote>im gonna post a ranger parse then a parse as me as a sin if i can find one to prove a pointUncle

Venez

06-29-2010, 05:38 PM

Ban me from these boards, hell ban my account if I dont beat you to cancelling it - but Xelgad your a f/ing idiot.Try blowing smoke somewhere else, the 6-7 Rangers,80%+ masterd and good raid gear, I personally know of that have betrayd to Assassins were doing 5-15k dps higher on there FIRST F/ING raids as a Sin without there mythicals or ANY masters.Cya, thanks for nothing - but guess I really should have known that from SoEs past history.

Magnethjelmen2

06-29-2010, 05:56 PM

<cite>Venez@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ban me from these boards, hell ban my account if I dont beat you to cancelling it - but Xelgad your a f/ing idiot.Try blowing smoke somewhere else, the 6-7 Rangers,80%+ masterd and good raid gear, I personally know of that have betrayd to Assassins were doing 5-15k dps higher on there FIRST F/ING raids as a Sin without there mythicals or ANY masters.Cya, thanks for nothing - but guess I really should have known that from SoEs past history.</blockquote>+1 on this

Nocks

06-29-2010, 06:33 PM

<table style="width: 508pt; border-collapse: collapse;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="676"><colgroup span="1"><col span="1" width="314"></col><col span="1" width="362"></col></colgroup><tbody><tr height="20"><td width="314" height="20">Assassin Hightest Melee Hit (world wide)</td><td width="362">Ranger Highest Melee Hit (world wide)</td></tr><tr height="20"><td height="20">Rank, Name, Server, Level, Highest Melee Hit</td><td>Rank, Name, Server, Level, Highest Melee Hit</td></tr><tr height="20"><td height="20">1 Headiz Kithicor 90 430,619 </td><td>1 Silvanthalanas Antonia Bayle 90 289,056 </td></tr><tr height="20"><td height="20">2 Veyna Najena 90 381,143 </td><td>2 Rillifane Antonia Bayle 90 269,556 </td></tr><tr height="20"><td height="20">3 Ringi Splitpaw 90 372,965 </td><td>3 Belina Splitpaw 90 263,345 </td></tr><tr height="20"><td height="20">4 Nind Splitpaw 90 371,219 </td><td>4 Xanendithas Runnyeye 90 260,576 </td></tr><tr height="20"><td height="20">5 Gaige Unrest 90 366,047 </td><td>5 Acamas Unrest 90 257,322 </td></tr><tr height="20"><td height="20">6 Cupo Everfrost 90 353,759 </td><td>6 Palermo Unrest 90 248,112 </td></tr><tr height="20"><td height="20">7 Devyn Guk 90 347,964 </td><td>7 Armacon Kithicor 90 246,249 </td></tr><tr height="20"><td height="20">8 Choke Unrest 90 347,484 </td><td>8 Krirk Storms 90 245,651 </td></tr><tr height="20"><td height="20">9 Dreadstrike Rnyeye 90 345,878 </td><td>9 Chap Guk 90 244,804 </td></tr><tr height="20"><td height="20">10 Foulou Storms 90 345,818 </td><td>10 Snipex Nagafen 90 243,446 </td></tr><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><tr height="20"><td height="20"></td><td></td></tr><tr height="20"><td colspan="2" height="20">Our Top Ranger "hit" beat NUMBER 79 on the Assassin World Wide leaderboard. </td></tr><tr height="20"><td height="20">Assassin 79 Pengo Sebilis 90 287,612 </td><td></td></tr><tr height="20"><td height="20"></td><td></td></tr><tr height="20"><td colspan="2" height="20">Our NUMBER TWO Ranger "hit" doesn't even make it into the Assassin Top 100 list.</td></tr><tr height="20"><td height="20">Assassin 100 Sylow Blackburrow 90 276,860 </td><td></td></tr><tr height="20"><td height="20"></td><td></td></tr><tr height="20"><td colspan="2" height="20">Umm I'm no rocket scientist but there seems to be a glaring disparity between these two classes. I'd love to see your data that shows that we're on par with assassins. Also, if you'd be so kind as to please explain to me how the data in the leaderboards is not an issue and why it's ok to have such a huge gap between two top DPS classes? If it shows up here don't you think it shows up in every parse? Ironically the delta between the top 10 highest melee hits (30%) is roughly the same difference in parse between me and the assassin in my guild. It's funny how numbers work out that way... eh?</td></tr></tbody></table>

jjlo69

06-29-2010, 06:47 PM

ok i promised ranger vs sin in app one parse differences here it is enjoy as a ranger fully master is the 5/16as a freshy betrayed sin in app ones 5/19Uncle <img src="http://i48.tinypic.com/2rgjtqc.png " /><img src="http://i49.tinypic.com/2d2hjlf.png" width="1599" height="1128" />

Nevao

06-29-2010, 06:50 PM

Uncle, these are good to see, but they probably need to be posted over in Xel's thread as well (or at least the one with assassin and then a comment back to here so he can see the differences)

jjlo69

06-29-2010, 06:52 PM

<cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote>Uncle, these are good to see, but they probably need to be posted over in Xel's thread as well (or at least the one with assassin and then a comment back to here so he can see the differences)</blockquote>i did one better i personally pmed them directly to him with our raid break downUncle

Neiloch

06-29-2010, 06:53 PM

Plus he only wants to see Rathgar fight parses right now.

jjlo69

06-29-2010, 06:55 PM

too bad rathgar wasnt in the game before i betrayed i really like to se what i would have done dps wise on itUncle

irbi

06-29-2010, 07:40 PM

jjlo69

06-29-2010, 08:07 PM

<cite>irbiss wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="http://s45.radikal.ru/i107/1006/2d/957be85be643.jpg" width="880" height="680" /></blockquote>LOL ftw

kartikeya

06-29-2010, 08:18 PM

Warning: monster post. The most important stuff is in bold, further down.I don't actually believe this is all Xelgad's doing. This is, while worded and presented differently, pretty much exactly the response rangers got pre-EoF, and I'm fairly sure during the Kunark arrow mechanics fix where we had that 30% damage nerf to our bows across the board because 'our internal data says you're fine so we can't possibly risk giving you any boost whatsoever' sort've thing.I'm fairly sure there are two major things happening here:1) Their internal data gathering is deeply flawed in some way. I don't know what way that is, and I don't know how it could be that their data, with easy access to every statistic imaginable I'm sure, could be so incredibly off from the reality, but something, somewhere, is messed up. This is the second or third time in years that a dev has come out and said, against reams and reams and reams of information to the contrary, that rangers are fine and don't need more DPS. This has been going on since Kingdom of Sky, and I am both horrified and fascinated that it seems to be continuing, because I can't comprehend what it is that's going on here.2) And possibly most importantly, I am 99% sure that this is not Xelgad's decision at all, this is someone closer to the top who stepped in and said 'you are going to give them this answer' and 'you are not going to work on this problem, you are going to do this'. This is managerial interference or managerial neglect, whichever the two, at their worst. For some reason, rangers bottom out someone's list on the 'not worth fixing' issue board. Possibly the person telling everyone else that the real focus needs to be pulling in new customers and streamlining the newbie experience.In short, I don't think it's actually Xelgad we should be angry at, and I think it's a symptom of a far, far larger and far more damaging problem to the game as a whole. So, while I'm sure the person or person's responsible will never read this (and may not even be on the EQ2 team proper), let me at least get this out there, floating in big bold letters:By throwing all of your focus into gaining new subscriptions and new sales with shiny new features that, while shiny, are not terribly deep or involved, while insisting that the dev team ignore long-term, deep rooted problems, you are behaving as though EQ2 is a single-player game designed to only bring in revenue through initial box sales. This is deeply flawed and deeply dangerous to the health of this game, because EQ2 is an MMO. This is a mistake many many many new MMO companies make, but you, SOE, and particularly the person or persons calling these shots, have a number of MMOs under your belt and years of experience, and there is no excuse for making this kind of mistake, let alone for perpetuating it more and more. A single-player game can get away with mechanics issues, bugs, and a shorter play life so long as they sell themselves well enough that they make a profit on initial box sales. As long as a person has bought a copy of a single-player game, that company has made all the money it is going to make off of that customer, barring expansion or sequel sales, and supposing they do not have some form of DLC model set up (which so far, has been less than impressive in any game it has been implemented in). An MMO cannot afford this kind of corner cutting, because an MMO lives or dies on its ability to retain customers so that it can continue to bring in monthly subscriptions and support server costs, development team salaries, and so on. Your first and foremost concern in any MMO anywhere at any time should always be player retention, and player retention involves regular game maintenance, bug fixing, an enjoyable and lengthy play experience, and CLASS BALANCE. Your secondary concern, while still important, should be bringing in new customers. Allow me to explain why: bringing in new customers means nothing to your longterm growth if you cannot keep those customers, and I guarantee you any customer who comes in and realizes once the shiny newness of whatever brought them wears off that the game's core foundation is in shambles with no real hope of fixing in sight will leave FAR FASTER than any established customer ever will. An established customer stands to lose time, past effort, and social connections, all things that will bring doubts about cancelling their subscription and keep them hanging around hoping for a change far past when they really should have stopped giving you money. Further, longterm players that do quit will often leave feeling very bitter about leaving said things behind, and will spread via word of mouth that your game is not a game that any of their friends, family, or coworkers should touch. While I have no numbers and only experience to back me up, I would be willing to bet that most of any new players that an established game like EQ2 gains are players that came here because they know people who play. If the people who play are unhappy, they will be warning those people off before you ever catch a glimpse of them. If, however, they give glowing recommendations, then that new player is very likely to stick around for a while, with a fair chance that they will stay for good even if the original player grows bored and leaves. If the original player becomes deeply unhappy with something, rather than just losing interest, they are guaranteed to take their friend with them when they go. All of those paragraphs simply say this: longterm player retention is your foremost concern because it will either make or bankrupt an MMO, any MMO, and class balance is an enormous factor in longterm player retention.Class balance can never be fully achieved, this is true. What is also true is that saying this is a complete cop-out, an excuse to ignore important issues because class balance is not something that will ever be 'finished'. Class balance is instead a journey, a thing that, like any other part of a game such as this, needs continuous, careful maintenance. Ignoring class balance because it will never be done with is like ignoring maintenance on your house because the necessity for house maintenance never stops. Sure, you can get away with it for a little while by turning a blind eye, but while you do those initial problems become big problems become giant insurmountable problems, and so when you're finally forced to actually fix them, they will cost you far more time and effort and MONEY than they would have if you'd just kept up with them in the first place.All of which someone who is making these calls should already know. It has been made clear that if you do know it, you are still ignoring it. Please re-examine the issue and see why you are hurting your own pocketbook, and let your development team do its job with appropriate direction.

Neiloch

06-29-2010, 08:30 PM

I don't care who specifically is to blame at this point. I do care that this current line of thinking will only serve to [Removed for Content] the entire game.This isn't just a problem for rangers, this is a problem for everybody in the game. It basically says no matter how much data you mine and how many people you get together that agree almost 100% on an issue, it ultimately means nothing if they have some [Removed for Content] poor algorithm in the office that tells them otherwise. They may be 'hearing' you but they aren't listening and understanding. We present evidence and a plea and they just say 'well, you certainly said what you just said.' Not every player wish should be granted, but this is pretty overwhelming.What ever methods or line of logic you used to determine that rangers are as good as stated by Xelgad needs to be trashed. Immediately.

jjlo69

06-29-2010, 08:41 PM

starwars and ffxiv comming out real soonuncle

Striikor

06-29-2010, 09:04 PM

<cite>crumpledmonkey wrote:</cite><blockquote>troll here!!what you need to do is get off the forums and learn to play your class.rangers can and do out parse assasins with the same gear and aa on end raiding.I do it all the time and the class is more fun to play.so if you cant cut it then roll to easy mode assasin or LTP.</blockquote>And here I thought you were a mage, oh yeah you are. You are also a prime example of why talk is cheap. Yours is so cheap it is not worth the read. Let us see a parse wonderboy

Sydares

06-30-2010, 01:04 AM

I'm pretty sure he labelled it as a troll to get the inevitable reply out of the way - at least, that's how I took it.If not... welp.

Striikor

06-30-2010, 09:05 AM

I don't see any way that they will take the time to fix our CA's, Bow issues or the ranged procs. It is easy to see that they have not read our posts or all of the numbers we have been putting up for them to look at for months no.... years. Evidently they can't even do simple math to compare the damage in the ca's alone never mind the procs that are not available to us. An any idiot should be able to see the error in grouping logic.They could easily address the majority of the problems with a little effort, I do not understand their fear of fixing what they broke and exacerbated over the years.Easy fast fixes that would give us a good deal of what we are missing.<ol><li>Up Hunter's Instinct's haste buff to be equal to the assassin's Villany DPS buff and take the in combat movement and make it a reuse buff. This address a major problem with our slow ca's and reuse. I don't believe it remove the problem entirely but it would mitigate it.</li></ol><div><img src="http://boxbgg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pahY5kxP4yzfdCmeJJFgSIUhoBCn_8SqGUsrOctVzFUM4hT5 P2HgJ0jkY0Lhdwf_1YAThq9Mq1feAKh5a-JnPjLPhkTnuPh5_/Villainy.jpg?psid=1" width="302" height="374" /><img src="http://boxbgg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pbbx_QEKN6pxQ0_Bxg3LxZ0S1u57iKbwtfnEkN2icZBLDKPw 58JCw6eKIYfj3LJMLmgXCjbGZBYGyR1j8yl9V4G6ND7atYkfN/Hunter's%20Instinct.jpg?psid=1" width="309" height="367" /></div><ol><li>On Focus aim simply take Nature's Bonus off of Focus and and make it a separate until canceled buff. It is a schitzo, freaky ca anyway with different timers on each. Heck have it use a concentration slot we have three free anyway.</li></ol><div><img src="http://boxbgg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p4Lpe9QvTzIsx8UtEN74WTUVEwvP95dlqqo2silps62us01e uA9TMYDEBDjJbWnODnKf9Yu-WTQs1EGJWp1_xgJEzSEuEAnDO/Focus%20Aim.jpg?psid=1" width="312" height="536" /><img src="http://boxbgg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pctvvkf-66WtTtm_93o3GcU_0rWsG0LJdG_HQbKngOLlD5OC9KWU2ikazd NOKah1Q0VMJZSEnz4EwyO5x6C6p13bxx3XjH9h9/Nature's%20Bonus.jpg?psid=1" width="306" height="543" /></div>Mehh will never happen though

Kilaak

06-30-2010, 10:42 AM

and a new tool emerges. Going back to EQ my sig read: Absor "Your utter stupidity astounds me" Been a long time, but same game being played.

nimbus2kgold

07-01-2010, 05:05 PM

I never thought I would see the day I hung up my bow. However, that day has arrived. My ranger who has been my main since 2005 has now been shoved back to alt status. She may get out for the occasional group, or if someone needs something crafted, but I'm a mystic now.Thanks Xelgad for helping make this very hard decision a little easier.

Writer Cal

07-01-2010, 06:54 PM

<cite>Liviya@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never thought I would see the day I hung up my bow. However, that day has arrived. My ranger who has been my main since 2005 has now been shoved back to alt status. She may get out for the occasional group, or if someone needs something crafted, but I'm a mystic now.Thanks Xelgad for helping make this very hard decision a little easier.</blockquote><img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I will always remember the countless deaths with Livi back in RoK. RIP.(Letty)

Lleren

07-02-2010, 03:02 AM

I've been mostly out this expansion.This just reinforces my descision to cancel my subscription. Perhaps I'll come back when its time to level to 100.

Carpediem

07-08-2010, 06:01 PM

This whole thing is just stupid. I don't know how they get their data but, break it down to pure numbers. Rangers have slower cast speed, recast speed, less CA damage and our auto attack is less dps than using two swords. It's also pretty arrogant on Xelgad's part to pretty much say all the people that have been complaining this whole time are wrong and he is right, so nothing has been changed.I can't wait to talk to him at fan faire and hear his logic on all of this.

Neiloch

07-08-2010, 06:15 PM

What he needs to do is basically take the best of the best of rangers (whats left of them) and compare them to the best of the best of other classes and measure the gaps. I'm sure they have the data there. I guarantee other 'pure DPS' classes like sorcerers and assassins are beating them regularly. Probably even some rogues and summoners in there. No averages of every level 90 ranger versus every level 90 wizard or whatever. I can easily join some lower end guild or pick up raid and probably beat most if not all of them on the parse, unfortunately that doesn't really mean anything. Only that my equipment is way better and I'm probably a much better player. If you really feel the need to average it out then average out on the top end, not the entire spectrum. I consider myself high end and have nothing but free time until September, willing to do what ever testing to help fix rangers proper.

Kegu

07-09-2010, 03:57 AM

Wow.... just wow... *Snaps his bow over his knee .. tosses it on the ground and walks away*

-=Hoss=-

07-09-2010, 02:52 PM

The RP'ing there made my day trisc.I still think a best of the best raid on test server would be awesome. Forget just comparing rangers to everyone else, do a series of them to compare everyone. Pick a relatively easy zone with lots of meat, I'm thinking labs minus Pera'calis. Give everyone thier pick of gear from any mob in the game. On various nights, give some of the best of the best thier ideal DPS groups, and post the parses. Bet it would be fun. Too bad I'm not a best of the best, I'd just like to be in the middle of that awesomeness.

Kegu

07-13-2010, 05:41 AM

So, Xelgad, tell me this....By my own "research" ... including pocket-book parsing... there are roughly 850 lvl 90 Rangers world wide...Which, with a $15 d'sub, equals about $13,000 Monthly from those people that cared enough about ranger to get them to level 90...And that equals $78,000 over the last 6 months since the expansion was released...So...... for the roughly $80,000, you're telling us that we have no solution in sight for a broken game with broken mechanics. I wager if I were to offer $80,000 to any of the people posting right now they could come up with a solution in 6 seconds for what needs to be done to resolve these issues at hand.......Why are you trying to sell me an $80,000 barrel of crap?....Actually why the hell am I paying $15 a month for a broken game... *ponders*FIX RANGERS IN 2010!

Prestissimo

07-13-2010, 08:40 AM

Honestly, until xelgad posts the numbers and the data file to back it up, I'm outright calling him a lying sack of crap for that post. You'd either have to be a complete failure at 3rd grade level math to mess the comparison up, or there is something that is not working right on live if they can get rangers to produce equal numbers to assassins.Sure, rangers CAN equal assassins at times just like there are times when a troub can hit 150k dps when the stars align and the procs go off exactly right and the troub is farting pure clouds of epic win caliber luck on a 40 mob linked 2 second fight, but to outright say that the rangers are at the place they're "supposed to be" and parsing equal to assassins? Those must be some seriously fail assassins in those "other sources" if they're getting equalled by rangers when they have that much of an advantage over the rangers. Either that, or a large majority of players are getting duped into thinking they're at the "right location" and theres some super secret trick that apparently only a select small number within SOE are privy to. Honestly I don't even understand why there is such a distance requirement because whats the real difference if you're 4 meters or 8 meters away? Rangers are going to stand where they can min/max their output, so why put an arbitrary mark on where that point is? Nevermind the fact that rangers are supposed to be experts with bows and really shouldn't NEED to be closer than any other melee user stands to get better use out of their weapon of specialty that they're supposed to be more proficient with.Honestly now I fully believe we were better off with aeralik because at least he acknowledged even if passively that he was a pos that played favorites.Bravo SOE, a new low even for you.

Neiloch

07-13-2010, 09:46 AM

I'm still holding off on unloading on him on a personal. He's relatively new, and frankly there aren't enough high end rangers to even get accurate numbers because a lot of them betrayed/quit for some odd reason. He needs to limit the number parsing to high end guilds and rangers. Looking at mid to lower end guilds and seeing that we are 'keeping up' with other classes would lead him to the conclusion he has now. Also, keeping up for the most part isn't enough for even the high end. I was really surprised by how boring the game got when it went from fighting for first, to no way in hell am I getting first on the parse if the other DPS classes are trying. Hey look I'm getting a distant third pretty consistently, woohoo. I mean think about, a pure DPS class and can't even properly compete for the top spot, what else is there to do? Personally I've been charged with raid tasks that aren't class specific. Clicking and managing raid mechanics. What's sad is I could do that all on any other class and instantly be more useful. Aside from numbers you have the most vocally disgruntled class in the GAME here. Not going to tell me things are fine. Even if its 100% A-OK on paper that means nothing when you have so many players of said class, and former players, so incredibly PO'd. Can sweep it under the rug as' dur hur hur rangers always whine on EQ1/EQ2.' Well I got news for you, our archetype doesn't do it this much on other MMO's. I'm talking about 7 other top MMO's here. This is because they were confident about the rangers role being TOP DPS purely at range. No weird balancing because they were a non-mage DPS class that could range, or generally didn't have to deal with the same problems as backstabbing classes. They didn't screw around and make it where they have to melee a small portion of most fights for top performance. It's just 'your an archer, you use a bow to do top end DPS, try and stay at range'

FearDiadh

07-13-2010, 11:45 AM

I think a lot of the difference between the lower end raid guild and the higher end raid guild ranger parses have to do with masters. Ranger masters are dirt cheap compared to other classes. (I wonder why? lol)This means that in a lower end raid guild the ranger is likely to be (as in my case) mastered long before anyone else. I was fully mastered and cleaning house on the parses within a month of the expansion hitting. But, as time goes by and everyone else gets more and more mastered, they have been advancing steadily on me. Suddenly 35k doesn't seem like much, especially when there are fighters doing 30k. A wizard with only half his masters is at about the same point I am now on the parse and I suspect he will top out a LOT higher than me considering all of his damage is spell based.I have a hard time believing that their 'in house parses' break down what percentage of that class has what percentage of their masters.

Neiloch

07-13-2010, 12:15 PM

<cite>Jack@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was fully mastered and cleaning house on the parses within a month of the expansion hitting. But, as time goes by and everyone else gets more and more mastered, they have been advancing steadily on me. Suddenly 35k doesn't seem like much, especially when there are fighters doing 30k. A wizard with only half his masters is at about the same point I am now on the parse and I suspect he will top out a LOT higher than me considering all of his damage is spell based.</blockquote>I've been seeing this story retold a lot and it happened to me as well. I had a nice jump on AA's and masters when xpac came out, I was dominating the parse. As things advanced my parse went up but others were going up at a much faster rate, and now we have the current situation.If you have a raid setup of all sub-par players I wouldn't be surprised to still see a ranger do quite well in comparison. But when you have a very skilled raid this means almost nothing. Basically the ranger has a easy but shorter maximum potential curve imo. It's easy to get a nice running start, and getting to mid-high to high potential on a ranger is not too difficult, getting to maximum is pretty hard though. Problem is doing 'pretty good' on a wizard or assassin gets the same results as a ranger working his butt off and doing everything to min/max his performance. This is why when anyone says 'well soandso ranger beats this assassin/sorcerer all the time' ranger's just say the people playing those are way behind on equipment or just plain suck.the problem isn't casual mid to low end ranger's or pvp. It's at high end raiding and very bad. Any problems low to mid level rangers have would fixed with the same solutions for high end just as long as it isn't itemization based.

Carpediem

07-13-2010, 04:51 PM

I love how we're a mighty force when standing at the correct range (within melee) yet Fyreflyte posted this 5 months ago:" The fact remains that rangers are intended to be a ranged class, and and we are going to make some changes that make this more viable than it has been. In the mean time, I am not creating any more 0 range bows. You have a number of abilities to help keep mobs at range; rangers were using these long before any 0 range bow was available."

Neiloch

07-13-2010, 05:05 PM

Yes, intended, and plan on improving it. Didn't say we are currently and don't need to melee. When they have talked about modifications to rangers in the past it had nothing to do with DPS really, just more or less making us more ranged and less melee with bows possibly able to exploit mechanics like flurry and auto ae. Those two comments aren't in conflict logically. Factually though, we are not a 'mighty force' in my and most players opinions. So its kind of a horizontal move they have planned from what they have said so far. No real intentions of upping our DPS, just to make us less melee and more ranged.

Boise

07-16-2010, 01:44 AM

The only numbers that matter are the ones from the Rathgar posting. Top assassins are doing 76+kish while rangers are doing 50k+ish.Thats about a 20k+ dps gap.Are we still good Xelgad?

kartikeya

07-16-2010, 01:37 PM

It's been my experience that rangers have done well at the beginning of every single tier since KoS (provided it's a ranger that has decent gear and knows to time auto attacks and where to stand and so on and so forth we all know this by now). And then other classes catch up fast and we never, ever, ever progress at anything othe than an absolute crawl.Also, I have had a bout of pure insomnia and haven't slept at all, so for your amusement I present a very incoherent TL;DR history of ranger problems, lulz. Because I can, obvs. :In T7, our issues were an incredible lack of decent bows and arrow mechanics. KoS had it the worst, we'd just been hit by the nerf bat at the end of DoF, and the only semi-decent bow was a drop off of TARINAX, and the only actually high end bow was the most ridiculous rare drop off of Venekor (seriously, you don't want to know how many times I ran HoS trying to get that #%@# sarnak warbow, and never ever saw it I H8 U VENEKOR and then someone I know went ONCE and it dropped for him and aghfsdfhsf). In addition, we also needed to grab one of the ammo summoning bows, either the aforementioned bow from Tarinax, or, barring that, the bow from the drake that was entirely worthless outside of the arrow summoning. Did I mention that all three of these bows were stupidly rare? Let me mention it again, because once we had those things, we were suddenly able to be competitve, but good luck getting them. Especially good luck getting them once EoF was released and your raid had already blown through that content and was moving on to EoF things. (Oh and at some point in here I don't even remember, some dev, Lockeye I think, informed us that we were all silly and that their internal data showed rangers having no issues really guys totally cool. So this is not a new problem with their data collection).EoF did help in that it added more respectable bows, but once again these bows were drops off of the boss mobs of the expansion, which meant that by the time your raid was able to kill these mobs you were probably being sat or dropped entirely because you simply could not keep up with all the other DPS classes. Rangers lucky enough to have got what they needed in KoS did fine, even shone, but rangers who weren't so lucky were left out in the cold unless they had very, very, very generous raid groups. Oh yeah and not one single major story questline had a bow reward, because durrhurrhurr, who needs bows, srsly?RoK rolls around, and there is consternation (I believe this started in beta, it's been a while, but I'm quite sure it did), because with a new tier that all important ammo from those ammo summoning bows (summoning no longer looks like a word) is now worthless, and there are no ammo summoning bows in T8, and lots of people far, far, far better at math than I am draw up all these charts and examples and pretty much go 'hay SOE this is REALLY BAD, arrow mechanics have been borked forever but now they are unforgivably borked and we need halp' and so a certain dev in charge of such things at the time (who P.S. no, I would not want back over Xelgad because as much as Xelgad's interview answer made me froth at least Xelgad is not--well, something the boards don't allow me to elaborate on in a polite or impolite fashion), anyway this dev was like 'lo, fixes are coming guys'. And we rejoiced. And then oops, the fixes rolled onto Test server and as it so happens, the arrow mechanics were fixed (huzzah!) and we were nerfed. Yes, remember when that big touted fix was a nerf? Fun times. Happily the actual nerf didn't make it off of Test, but by the time the 'fix' went live we'd had it made very clear to us that this certain dev thought we were performing exactly as we were meant to perform (badly) and that he'd taken measures to make sure that we gained absolutely no DPS from this fix. There was a lot of froth.(Also, should any mechanics dev be reading this massive spiel, insofar as we know that blanket 30% nerf to our bow damage or whatever he did is still there. Hidden to us of course. Because a major point of the arrow mechanics fix wasn't to stop us having to perform calculus to figure out how our damage worked or anything. Just making sure you guys know about that. You do know about that, right? <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )Oh yeah, and mythicals. I could write an entire essay on the disparity between the ranger mythical and the assassin mythical but let's just not do that. Anyone with eyes can pull up both examine windows and have a look.TSO! Oh TSO. You guys realize I've been hoping for fixes to itemization since KoS, right? And mechanics overhaul since at least the late end of EoF, but definitely RoK? And that there are some mechanics problems that have existed since the game launched? Yeah I'm just saying. Okay, TSO comes and...and...and things get worse, okay? Because we have flurry and AE auto attack and they're getting rather more prominent, but of course rangers can't use those, because that would just be silly. Also, to speak about outdated AAs for a moment, you realize we have an endline ranger AA that adds...8% doubleattack (it was nerfed from 10% because lawl overpowering I guess)? And that I got boots fairly early on in TSO that had more doubleattack than that? I mean I'm just saying here. Okay anyway, so really, nothing was done for us in TSO except to exempt us from new special toys that all the other reindeer got to play with, and itemization went completely insane--I'm just saying--and we could kind've...sort've...I mean sometimes we were okay, I guess? Sometimes? ... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Anyway nothing was done and it was just sort've left to lie. And SF gets announced and rather like during pre-RoK, and pre-TSO, we all get bright eyed and everyone is all 'I bet fixes will come in SF!' And some people noticed the only thing really mentioned as being looked at in Fanfaire was, well, Stream of Arrows. But hey Stream of Arrows had been broken since DESERT OF FLAMES SERIOUSLY PEOPLE so that was a hopeful note, wasn't it?Also we got a new dev to take care of this stuff about when closed beta started, woooooo. And yeah then SF beta. And guys, we do complain a lot, but this is why I froth and rage about the recent interview and yet I still can't hate Xelgad, because seriously the state of our new AAs in beta was horrible. It was like the final screw you from a certain dude, it was cry worthy. And most of our AAs now are still really heavily favoring assassins on the predator side and the ranger ones are mostly not as cool or effective (but I love you long time Arrow Barrage <3 <3 <3) but honestly if you had seen how they were when beta started (and if you did, then you know) and how Xelgad was working like a busy bee to make them not quite so terrible, then well, something. I can be grateful for that. Also we got minimum range on our AEs taken away (P.S. THIS IS STILL BROKEN WHEN USING ANY BOW THAT IS NOT THE MYTH THOUGHT YOU SHOULD KNOW, GUYS) just like that, and it was sweet. And makeshift arrows stopped being horrible. And Stream of Arrows stopped being horrible. And...well that's where the good things kind've stopped, really.Everyone got fixes in SF. Our fixes were nice and great and all, but what we need is an overhaul, and that did not come. And then we saw the itemization and everyone else's AAs and new adornments and we started realizing, guys, guys we are so screwed if things aren't changed, and the devs were like 'yeah, there are problems and we're going to monitor the situation, but we really can't do an overhaul now 'cause duh expansion', and this was a frustrating but reasonable point. So we somewhat subsided a little. There was hope, because hey things might come in the next GU, I mean with Halas. Halas + ranger fixes, wooo, just maybe.Yeah, that didn't happen.Aaand...yeah the likelihood of us seeing anything in this upcoming GU is in the negatives at this point (P.S. we are a mighty force. P.P.S. I know you'll hate having said that forever Xelgad but if we don't mock we'll cry big fat ranger tears of woe). Guardians might. I'm happy for guardians. I expect we'll hear nothing. In a few months people will start looking hopeful and starry-eyed again, because maybe the Expansion-That-Totally-Isn't-Obviously-Velious-Really will contain badly needed ranger fixes, and you guys, we just need to hold on a little longer and......And yeah. I'm just saying here. So, in closing:<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Sydares

07-22-2010, 02:15 AM

^^^ /agree with wall of text.I'm just demoralized in general. But, I guess that's okay, since I'm a mighty force and all.

Neiloch

07-22-2010, 02:44 AM

After seeing their response to lag, and saying how they don't experience it, I know they don't have a grasp of what is really going on in raids. Game lag was like a myth to them, something players talked about but NONE of the dev team saw themselves, specifically because they don't [Removed for Content] raid. they literally admitted to the fact none of the dev team saw the amount of lag players were complaining about. People including myself told them it was on raids and they responded 'we suspected it was on raids.' Only way that could happen is if their playing on private servers or possibly the russian ones, or they just aren't raiding.So it's not a big stretch to think they see rangers doing fine, never really seeing them in raids. They need to be in a raid, or at least spectating a raid as it happens with a ranger in it to see what we are talking about, and there is a big indication they haven't. Only thing they have shown to notice about raids is who has killed what.I'll agree we are fine solo, pvp, and even groups, i do quite well in most groups. Raids on the other hand, it isn't a slight variation in performance, it is a huge drop when compared to other DPS classes. It is extremely embaressing when I purposely save all my temps, all my big hits, make sure i got the spirit arrows in, and time everything perfectly pulling out all the stops and some mages just casually beats me with a comfortable margin.

suzita

07-22-2010, 07:25 AM

yeah at the moment we're 'OK' in groups but I've definitely noticed a change (for the worse) with my ranger this expansion. She feels sluggish in groups, compared to when I play my inq or my other scout and I've definitely noticed other classes' dps increasing. True, I do still need a few upgrades to my gear (what is available at group level) but it is not going to make a huge difference (a difference yes).Previous expansions / nerfs / being overlooked haven't really been noticed at group level too much - this expansion it has. I sincerely hope they take another look at this 'mighty force' and start tweaking/adjusting us soon because if the new expansion contains lots of new goodies for other classes that rangers can't take advantage of, we are going to be dying at group level soon too.

-=Hoss=-

07-22-2010, 01:47 PM

<cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote>EoF did help in that it added more respectable bows, but once again these bows were drops off of the boss mobs of the expansion, which meant that by the time your raid was able to kill these mobs you were probably being sat or dropped entirely because you simply could not keep up with all the other DPS classes. Rangers lucky enough to have got what they needed in KoS did fine, even shone, but rangers who weren't so lucky were left out in the cold unless they had very, very, very generous raid groups. Oh yeah and not one single major story questline had a bow reward, because durrhurrhurr, who needs bows, srsly?RoK rolls around, and there is consternation (I believe this started in beta, it's been a while, but I'm quite sure it did), because with a new tier that all important ammo from those ammo summoning bows (summoning no longer looks like a word) is now worthless, and there are no ammo summoning bows in T8, and lots of people far, far, far better at math than I am draw up all these charts and examples and pretty much go 'hay SOE this is REALLY BAD, arrow mechanics have been borked forever but now they are unforgivably borked and we need halp' and so a certain dev in charge of such things at the time (who P.S. no, I would not want back over Xelgad because as much as Xelgad's interview answer made me froth at least Xelgad is not--well, something the boards don't allow me to elaborate on in a polite or impolite fashion), anyway this dev was like 'lo, fixes are coming guys'. And we rejoiced. And then oops, the fixes rolled onto Test server and as it so happens, the arrow mechanics were fixed (huzzah!) and we were nerfed. Yes, remember when that big touted fix was a nerf? Fun times. Happily the actual nerf didn't make it off of Test, but by the time the 'fix' went live we'd had it made very clear to us that this certain dev thought we were performing exactly as we were meant to perform (badly) and that he'd taken measures to make sure that we gained absolutely no DPS from this fix. There was a lot of froth.</blockquote>Nice writeup, even if you did neglect the glory days. But you missed a few things. First off, there was the stormcaller bow from the questline in EOF, which I thought was pretty darned good. Second was the fact that the crafted bow you got from EH remained the best bow through most of ROK, I think practically until the mythicals came out wasn't it? Or did that change when the arrow mechanics were 'fixed'. But, if you think that's bad, do you realize the poisoned seeds from EH are still better than T9 caustic poisons? Speaking of which, I need to see if anyone in my guild wants to clear the first floor of EH with me. I wonder if we have to mentor to get seeds and the recipe to drop. Does anyone know?

Laenai

07-22-2010, 02:00 PM

<cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>After seeing their response to lag, and saying how they don't experience it, I know they don't have a grasp of what is really going on in raids. Game lag was like a myth to them, something players talked about but NONE of the dev team saw themselves, specifically because they don't [Removed for Content] raid. they literally admitted to the fact none of the dev team saw the amount of lag players were complaining about. People including myself told them it was on raids and they responded 'we suspected it was on raids.' Only way that could happen is if their playing on private servers or possibly the russian ones, or they just aren't raiding.</blockquote>Sweetpea, sometimes i wonder if they even have a grasp of what is really going on in GAME period, much less raids <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ranja

07-22-2010, 06:23 PM

<cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote>EoF did help in that it added more respectable bows, but once again these bows were drops off of the boss mobs of the expansion, which meant that by the time your raid was able to kill these mobs you were probably being sat or dropped entirely because you simply could not keep up with all the other DPS classes. Rangers lucky enough to have got what they needed in KoS did fine, even shone, but rangers who weren't so lucky were left out in the cold unless they had very, very, very generous raid groups. Oh yeah and not one single major story questline had a bow reward, because durrhurrhurr, who needs bows, srsly?RoK rolls around, and there is consternation (I believe this started in beta, it's been a while, but I'm quite sure it did), because with a new tier that all important ammo from those ammo summoning bows (summoning no longer looks like a word) is now worthless, and there are no ammo summoning bows in T8, and lots of people far, far, far better at math than I am draw up all these charts and examples and pretty much go 'hay SOE this is REALLY BAD, arrow mechanics have been borked forever but now they are unforgivably borked and we need halp' and so a certain dev in charge of such things at the time (who P.S. no, I would not want back over Xelgad because as much as Xelgad's interview answer made me froth at least Xelgad is not--well, something the boards don't allow me to elaborate on in a polite or impolite fashion), anyway this dev was like 'lo, fixes are coming guys'. And we rejoiced. And then oops, the fixes rolled onto Test server and as it so happens, the arrow mechanics were fixed (huzzah!) and we were nerfed. Yes, remember when that big touted fix was a nerf? Fun times. Happily the actual nerf didn't make it off of Test, but by the time the 'fix' went live we'd had it made very clear to us that this certain dev thought we were performing exactly as we were meant to perform (badly) and that he'd taken measures to make sure that we gained absolutely no DPS from this fix. There was a lot of froth.</blockquote>Nice writeup, even if you did neglect the glory days. But you missed a few things. First off, there was the stormcaller bow from the questline in EOF, which I thought was pretty darned good. Second was the fact that the crafted bow you got from EH remained the best bow through most of ROK, I think practically until the mythicals came out wasn't it? Or did that change when the arrow mechanics were 'fixed'. But, if you think that's bad, do you realize the poisoned seeds from EH are still better than T9 caustic poisons? Speaking of which, I need to see if anyone in my guild wants to clear the first floor of EH with me. I wonder if we have to mentor to get seeds and the recipe to drop. Does anyone know?</blockquote>Rigid Scale Bow. Yes that was the best bow at the end of EoF. And when Aerlick found out all rangers were still using it in RoK he nerfed it when his "mechanics" fix so we all had to start using Raincaller which was worse but we had to use it because of the way Aerlick made arrows work. The in RoK you had to wait until your guild could kill Overking to get another bow. So while all melee classes had DWs dropping like candy, we had to use a heroic bow (raincaller) until our guld made the progression to a t2 zone - the overking.Seriously to this day I don't understand why he hated rangers so much and it seemed like he purposely screwed us over time and time agsain. Put us in a hole we will never dig out of.

Neiloch

07-22-2010, 06:36 PM

<cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seriously to this day I don't understand why he hated rangers so much and it seemed like he purposely screwed us over time and time agsain. Put us in a hole we will never dig out of.</blockquote>Rumor was the ranger he raided with kept up with him and beat him sometimes because he couldn't play for crap, hence why assassin's kept seeing gains and rangers were stagnant or lowered. Certainly seems possible form what we have seen thus far. So maybe we need a dev who raids on a ranger and can't play well.I really hope they normalize bows to act more like other weapons, taking advantage of all the mechanics they use and maybe they can start balancing us proper.

kartikeya

07-23-2010, 06:45 PM

Rain Caller, yes. You don't want to know how long I used Rain Caller (a...what? T6 bow?), it was obscenely ridiculous. Wonderful bow, but I started loathing it just because I absolutely could not get anything better, as my luck on raid drops was horrendous throughout the entirety of T7. I finally found one shortly before I hit 80 in RoK.I skipped the glory days (I assume you mean DoF?) mostly because I intended to talk about ranger troubletimes, and partly because I only came back to the game during the second half of DoF and don't remember most of it. But maybe I shouldn't have, since I could have pointed out that the glory days were awesome, but the entire reason rangers were so good then had nothing to do with the class being awesome and everything to do with procs being hilariously broken. That's why we were so horribly broken in KoS--they fixed procs (as procs did seriously need fixing), and then were like 'ehh, okay have a short term root' when rangers freaked out.I can't remember the numbers, maybe someone can help me out? I seem to remember in DoF procs made up something like 40%-60% of our DPS (sound familiar?), and the reason why they were so powerful was because rangers had the longest delay weapons in the game, so the way proc mechanics worked then was that we were pretty nearly guaranteed a proc on just about every shot. And then what was truly broken about that was that procs had a chance of setting off other procs. It was insanity.I would honestly argue rangers were just as broken in DoF. The arrow mechanics, our underwhelming CAs, nearly everything we're suffering with these days was still in place then in one way or another (we even had bow itemization issues), but the proc mechanics favored us so highly that it didn't matter. They finally fixed proc mechanics because they saw in KoS we would be doing (this always makes me laugh these days), 4k DPS. Which at that time was like zomg unbelievable. So they fixed proc mechanics and then mostly went LA LA LA when every ranger in existence pointed out that now all the class deficiencies were laid bare and we needed actual class adjustments.And it has pretty much been LA LA LA as the official response to rangers ever since. We've had a few scattered fixes and a seemingly intentionally malicious mechanics dev (seriously, I will never understand) and I have yet to see one single instance of the devs going 'you know what? Rangers really are significantly underpowered (and these days, utterly broken), we're going to follow this up with a needed revamp and scrutinizing across the board'.'Mighty force' saddens but doesn't surprise me. It's been SOE's party line for a ridiculous number of years. I expect because at the base level, ranger mechanics are so convoluted and twisted and sprinkled with hidden numbers (thanks Aeralik) that no one wants to touch that code with a ten foot solid steel pole.

Neiloch

07-23-2010, 07:18 PM

<cite>Karimonster wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sweetpea, sometimes i wonder if they even have a grasp of what is really going on in GAME period, much less raids <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Oh I suspected they had little idea, but this is different for me because it is basically them admitting they have no idea what is going on, at least in raids. They admittedly never experienced the lag in raids, they ask for raid parses to be posted, along with their long term basic ignorance of various raid aspects.Far as I'm concerned now, there is at least a few DOZEN players of EQ2 that know more about raids in general than the actual developers. Which makes me even madder when we bring practical results of our sub-par performance both here and the 'other' message board and they just say we are fine. They don't have the knowledge to state we are in any kind of state including 'fine.' I suspected that myself and some other choice individuals knew more about rangers on raids than them, but now its a provable fact complete with testimony confirming ignorance of raiding.The smart thing for them to do now is to be humble and take advice from people who know more than them.

Alenna

07-23-2010, 09:21 PM

<cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Karimonster wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sweetpea, sometimes i wonder if they even have a grasp of what is really going on in GAME period, much less raids <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Oh I suspected they had little idea, but this is different for me because it is basically them admitting they have no idea what is going on, at least in raids. They admittedly never experienced the lag in raids, they ask for raid parses to be posted, along with their long term basic ignorance of various raid aspects.Far as I'm concerned now, there is at least a few DOZEN players of EQ2 that know more about raids in general than the actual developers. Which makes me even madder when we bring practical results of our sub-par performance both here and the 'other' message board and they just say we are fine. They don't have the knowledge to state we are in any kind of state including 'fine.' I suspected that myself and some other choice individuals knew more about rangers on raids than them, but now its a provable fact complete with testimony confirming ignorance of raiding.The smart thing for them to do now is to be humble and take advice from people who know more than them.</blockquote>until then I guess I should bring up my healer and maybe wizard(sigh wanted to use her to see as much of norrath as I could)

DragonTayl

08-02-2010, 07:39 PM

And ad to that the frustration that we're not asking to kick everyone else's ... parse ... we just want to be COMPETATIVE. We want to be CLOSE.

Mono

08-09-2010, 11:35 AM

Having played for over 5 years now i've developed my own ranger Master its called " immune to listening to SOE devs" because for 5 years now they've never helped the ranger community NOT ONCE! Every community has its issues paladins probably won't be happy about the inc heal nerf but single handedly the ranger community has been the worst community hands down since game launch.WHY? well we've just never stopped moaning and the dev department has never stopped letting us down. I gave up caring tbh i still enjoy my ranger but not since EOF have i enjoyed raiding on it. Its a great fun class to play and i know some of you don't want to betray but sadly its been the only solution IF you want to top or parse better. I really hope they fix the ranger class i've been hoping since they did us over us in DOF, (the glory days) but that aside i've not betrayed i've just moved on to another class!