As bad as everyone says?

[Valgar80]

<p>Hi all,</p><p>Im just starting out and liked what i saw on this class and the dirge. ( want to go troub as i want to start in the halas zone ) All i see here is people saying how bad the class is.  Is this just banter from people who can't play there class right? though it seems every class thread is complaining about there class. or is it just people trying to get the devs to buff um?</p><p>thanks!</p>

[Artalis the Elder]

<p>Troubs can be amazing, but we have a lot of flat-out busted stuff going on with the class.</p><p>It takes work to play a Troub well, ie. to be more than a buffbot, but it can be rewarding.</p><p>There will always be a lot of weeping going on these forums because it is way easier to complain than to find a way.</p><p>Bottom line is that we buff pure casters (and casty healers like furies) the most and Dirges buff the Tanks, Scouts and melee healers (inquis, temp, mystic and warden) the most.</p><p>On the upside Pallies and Sk's tend to like Troubs almost as much as Dirges and crusaders are definitely on the top of the tank pile right now so its not terribly hard to find a group.</p><p>All around though, Dirges have it easier because they bring more utility.</p><p>Edit: Bards are a Neutral class, you can be a Dirge or Troub and live in Halas.</p>

[Ksaun]

<p>Any class in this game has the ability to shine and its all dependent on the person behind the keyboard.</p><p>Some are very easy to play and others take more finesse to reach the classes potential.</p>

[Valgar80]

<p>Ok thanks Kiki.</p>

[Raahl]

<p>Dirges and Troubadors are similar in many ways.  The main difference is how difficult they are to solo.</p><p>I started out as a Troubador and hit a wall around level 75.  Solo'ing was very difficult at times, but grouping and raiding was enjoyable enough.</p><p>I betrayed to Dirge and solo'ing is easier and groups/raids are equally as enjoyable.  Well except for being a rez bot.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Just my 2c for you to consider.</p>

[Ristan]

<p>Like everyone else I agree, Troub is my favorite class in the game, but it is a heavy learning curve to break away from the buff bot syndrome. </p><p>Dirges get hate transfer, rez, and like stated above buff helaers, tanks, scouts better than troubs (even caster healers due to gravitas) alot of aa buffs are the same.A Troub is a casters best friend, with UT, jesters (scouts, healers and tanks like this too but not quite as good for healers as gravitas).  We have alittle less utility imo due to not having hate transfer or rez instead we have a mez and a crappy charm that really do nothing in raids, but if your looking to just group it's not so bad.</p><p>Soloability, I've never played a dirge, but I have many dirge friends who were once troubadors that say it is much easier on a dirge, after SF some of the buffs changed and a dirge buffs themselves better than a troub.  However, a well played troub can solo quite well if you learn how to kite/snare/mez when needed.</p><p>Really it's up to personal preference.  But dirge and troub can be evil or good they are a neutral class, so you could start in halas with either.  If you don't like one you can also always betray to the other.</p><p>Bards are an acquired taste, due to thinking about others in the form of  utility but also having to think about yourself in terms of dps.</p><p><span><span style="font-weight: bold;"><span style="color: #0080ff;"><span style="font-size: 85%; line-height: normal;"><a class="postlink" href="list.m?topic_id=458754"></a> </span></span></span></span></p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>It's annoying at best that bards are considered to be auto following buff bot taxis until they prove themselves otherwise. It's also frusterating that you have to invest a very significant amount of AAs, ability quality upgrades, and gear before you even make a difference beyond being a buff bot.</p><p>It's even more annoying that the developers treat bards as auto following buff bot taxis in the form of not addressing problems with the classes, not scaling the abilities as the game mechanics change, allowing our main purposes and functions to get scaled out of need by gear progression, and for the benefits we still do provide that people want to get so close to cap that we're giving pretty much straight diminishing returns.</p><p>The icing on the cake though is aside from the obstacles/stereotypes put upon and infront of a bard, the fact that dirges are much more desired for a multitude of reasons that are most scenarios summed up by "they are less neglected" puts troubs in a possition where the player needs to be capable of accepting that they will always be the absolute last class to be thought about to everyone except the casters and will often times be completely ignored all together.</p><p>It's for that reason the class is nearly dead and it's so difficult to find a good troub to see the immense benefit a troub can give even with almost 3 years now neglected abilities that the phrase "troubs are a myth" has become self perpetuating as upcoming troubs are discouraged into betraying to dirge or rerolling another class by the sheer neglect and unappreciation of troubs.</p>

[Laiina]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The icing on the cake though is aside from the obstacles/stereotypes put upon and infront of a bard, the fact that dirges are much more desired for a multitude of reasons that are most scenarios summed up by "they are less neglected" puts troubs in a possition where the player needs to be capable of accepting that they will always be the absolute last class to be thought about to everyone except the casters and will often times be completely ignored all together.</p><p>It's for that reason the class is nearly dead and it's so difficult to find a good troub to see the immense benefit a troub can give even with almost 3 years now neglected abilities that the phrase "troubs are a myth" has become self perpetuating as upcoming troubs are discouraged into betraying to dirge or rerolling another class by the sheer neglect and unappreciation of troubs.</p></blockquote><p>I have to agree with that and some of the sentiments expressed in other messages. I have an 88 Troubador (90 Conj is my main), and my main issue with the Troub is that until you get 200 or so AA, it is in fact not much more than an autofollow buffbot. They don't solo near as well as some other classes, and not having an aoe like SK's, Warlocks, and many other classes is somewhat hampered in that respect.</p><p>I think it is for those an a few other reasons that Troubs are mythical. Personally I am not sure I want to grind away to get another 75-100 AA just to make it useful in groups or raids.</p>

[Elwin]

<p>My 2c worth.</p><p>I have a dirge and a troub both at level 90, yes they are pretty similar at early levels but different enough to have both.I love them!</p><p>I found the troub easier to solo than the dirge purely because of the mezz and charm. Play the class well or just don't totally suck and you'll never be without a group.</p><p>I don't know about dirges being in higher demand than troubs, I guess it depends on what server you play on. I find myself playing my troub a lot more than my dirge now.</p><p>I can't imagine there's any class that doesn't have some complaints so if I was you I'd ignore them for now and roll a bard and just see if the class suits you. </p>

[Legion11]

<p>I play a troub in a very dirge heavy guild.  Before me, there was one troubador who is your stereotypical troubador - meaning he believes he's there to buff and little else.</p><p>After seeing me in action for a couple months, one dirge has betrayed to troubador, and at least two other players that I know of have made alt troubs and are actively levelling them up.  This class can be an amazing boon to any group/raid if played correctly.</p><p>Although, to be fair, I often wonder if I was a dirge instead, would I be putting up better numbers and make a better impression on groups?  I don't know.  I guess all I'm saying is, you don't need to fall into that trap-mode of thinking troubadors are terrible and dying out and not appreciated.  I can usually get a PuG within minutes of logging in, and not a week goes by where I don't get a random tell from a higher end raid guild that goes something like; "Hi, are you happy in your current guild?  We're looking for a raid troub, if interested check out our site at <random.guild.com>"</p><p>Make a troub, dare to be different from the crowd.  Read everything you can find here and on the EQFlames site about AA builds, cast rotations, song selection, etc.  Then get yourself geared up, don't neglect your spell quality, and above all - work your butt off in groups/raids.  The reputation you will gain for not being a failbard is priceless, and will open many many doors for you to network with some of the heavies on your server.</p>

[Rocc]

<p>I have both although my troub is only 87 with sucky gear/spells. I've raided with both and must say that troubs are just as busy in raids as a dirge. Both are heavily dependant on AA's so it's not a class(s) to powerlevel to 90 and try to be "good" at being a bard. What makes bards good is AA first, gear second and player skill third.</p><p>Both have nearly identical AAs and with the right spec can be fairly descent in solo, groups and raids. I think both bards should have hate though. But for the most part troubs can be fantastic or they can suck. It's a HUGE learning curve that you will learn in time. The hard part is keeping your interest.</p>

[Tommara]

<p>My troub is the fourth character I've played to high levels, and it's by far the easiest to find a group.  Not only do I get a group the fastest when I'm looking for one, I get more tells asking me to join groups when I'm not even looking for a group.  And when that happens, it's often something difficult and interesting.</p><p>The comments about needing lots of AA, gear, and skill to be really useful - well, that applies to all classes, too.  Troubs aren't special in that regard.  My main character is a paladin, and one challenge the pally faces that my troub does not, is being expected to lead the group (i.e., know the dungeon and the boss mob scripts).  A troub does not have that responsibility, so it's a great class to play to get into groups and learn the zones.</p><p>It is tougher to solo than other classes I've played, including dirge.  While it's true that mez and charm helps us solo mobs that dirges cannot, encounters that need those skills are not the reasons you choose to solo.  I solo because I want to relax and putter around completing quests for AA (and just because).  Most of the time when I solo, I'm either just killing 10 rats or yard trash that's in the way of my objective and a dirge can do that kind of stuff faster since they can buff their own skills better than we can.  Not necessarily better, just faster.</p>

[Aaramis]

<p>Well, both Troubs and Dirges have slightly weak dps from a parsing perspective compared to other scouts, although with SF they've certainly narrowed the gap somewhat.  And some Troubs and Dirges can pull some pretty impressive dps these days when fully decked out with top gear and raid buffs, and are fairly close together (although I think generally Dirges win out - but only slightly).</p><p>That said, and as mentioned previously, the main reason why you see more whinging on the Troub boards than on the Dirge boards is that Troubador currently has more broken/gimped abilities that need fixing.  And that fixing has been very, VERY, slow to arrive (in fact, we're still waiting.  Things that were broken with SF's release 4+ months ago haven't been touched).</p><p>I'll give you a quick example of the key differences in abilities and where each subclass stands.</p><p>Dirges get lifetaps built-in to several of their attacks;  Troubs get power taps (generally useless).</p><p>The Dirge group stat buff is +STR and AGI, boosting Scouts (and themselves!) and Fighters.  The Troub stat buff is +WIS and +INT (does nothing for the Troub - but did previously before the stat changes).</p><p>Dirge gets Percussion of Stone at 52 (group stoneskin proc);  Troubs get Requeim of Reflection (currently widely considered to be broken/gimped/useless).</p><p>At 58, Dirges get Cacophany of Blades and Elegy of Awakening;  Troubs get Precision of the Maestro.  All are highly useful buffs, but note Dirges get 2;  Troubs get 1.</p><p>At 65, Dirges get Oration of Sacrifice;  Troubs get Jester's Cap.  Would probably say Jester's is far more useful here.</p><p>At 80, Dirges get Gravitas.  Troubs get Countersong (again, widely considered to be broken/gimped/useless).  Gravitas is amazing.</p><p>So that's the gist, really.  Dirges have more abilities generally considered unbroken or useful.  Of all of those listed for the Troubs, only really PoM and JC are highly useful.</p><p>That said, I prefer Troubador.  I've betrayed twice in my career so far (once at level 17ish, and then again in my 40s).  I keep coming back to Trouby for some reason.  Maybe I'm just a sadist, but there's something about Troubador that (for me, at least) is more fun to play.</p><p>Maybe that should be our new motto.  "Troubador.  It's a personal choice."</p>

[Woetohice]

<p>My experience was opposite of most of the posters. Soloing was a piece of cake, and up until T9 I was always 2nd on instance parses. Granted, I kept my troub twinked to the gills all the way up.</p><p>Now I find that although it's still easy to solo non-heroics, I'm no longer 2nd on any parse. In fact assuming the player isn't horrible, the only classes I find I can consistently beat are:</p><p>Non-brawler fighters, shamans, wardens, templars, and about half the chanters/other bards.</p><p>Question: what classes do folks think we should be able to consistently beat? Anything I didn't list?</p>

[Aaramis]

<p><cite>Woetohice wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My experience was opposite of most of the posters. Soloing was a piece of cake, and up until T9 I was always 2nd on instance parses. Granted, I kept my troub twinked to the gills all the way up.</p><p>Now I find that although it's still easy to solo non-heroics, I'm no longer 2nd on any parse. In fact assuming the player isn't horrible, the only classes I find I can consistently beat are:</p><p>Non-brawler fighters, shamans, wardens, templars, and about half the chanters/other bards.</p><p>Question: what classes do folks think we should be able to consistently beat? Anything I didn't list?</p></blockquote><p>I think the timeframe of when you soloed up to T9 is necessary to state here, Woe.  </p><p>If you soloed to T9 back pre-TSO with ease, that would be fairly impressive.  Soloing to T9 now with today's gear and AA abilities?  Much, much easier.</p>

[Woetohice]

<p>Soloed to 60 pre-TSO, 60-90 during TSO/SF.</p>

[Kazzo]

<p>Just people raging because they can't play their class right... Troub is an amazing class to play if you know how to kite and everyone loves you in groups!</p>

[Iamken]

<p>I soloed up to 90 with great ease within the last year. I never had to kite, but then again I didn't take on any orange ^^^'s either. I'm sure it was much harder a couple of years ago, but it was a little harder for most classes back then too.</p>

[Laiina]

<p>I have gotten my Troubador up to 90 now, and gotten some pretty decent non-raid gear, and am finding it is a lot more fun to play now that she has some 200'ish aa and decent gear. Debating whether to grind BG for a decent weapon.</p><p>So far my biggest problem is getting masters, but that pretty much goes for all but the least played classes. And unlike my conjuror, I don't have to beg for groups...</p>

[Aaramis]

<p><cite>Kazzo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just people raging because they can't play their class right... Troub is an amazing class to play if you know how to kite and everyone loves you in groups!</p></blockquote><p>Agree with the second part;  but completely disagree with the first part for pre-TSO life.</p><p>It has nothing to do with whether or not people could play their class.  Back then it was tough to solo.</p><p>Sure, it's easy now, and yes, any Troub with reasonable gear, AAs, and use of their skills can solo effectively.  Especially given the ability to stop combat at any time via mez, it makes us VERY viable soloers, even against heroics.  I've whittled down even con or higher ^^^ heroics simply by refreshing my big hits, mezzing, and then waiting out the re-cast timers.  It's not rocket science.  It just takes a LOT of time.  Same thing with kiting.</p><p>My point is that a lot of the rage posts you see were from 2 or more years ago when Kunark first came out.  Shadows AAs didn't exist of course;  half the gear now didn't exist back then;  we had to split our stats between str, agi, sta and int, as well as our bonuses (crits, etc.) between melee and ranged and spells; and the Troub AA tree was still relatively new (only released with EoF) so most people only had 50-70 AAs hitting Kunark (as opposed to most lvl 70ish people these days with over 100 AAs).  Trust me, life was a LOT different back then.   Take a look at some of the parsing threads.  Raid-decked out Bards were struggling to parse higher than 2k in some cases.  Now you can practically reach that with simply auto-attack on.  Bards have changed alot with modern stats and gear, and the game as a whole has changed as well.</p><p>The rage posts you see from *modern* times are mostly based around the fact that there are a number of useless or broken Troub abilities that have gone untouched for a long time, so you tend to find the vets get embittered towards SoE who seems to fix numerous other classes and leaves Bards partially broken for whatever reason.  Of course, everyone's definition of "broken" varies, and you'll get just as many people posting about how great their Troub is as you will about how broken their Troub is, and that doesn't help things either, as it gives SoE mixed messages.  Are we broken or not?</p><p>Anyways, I'm digressing here.  Point is life is definitely better these days for Bards, and soloing life is much easier.  Are Bards as bad as everyone says?  Personally, I'd say "no".  I love my Trouby.  But do they need some tweaks / dev attention?  My vote is "yes".</p><p>*edit* [Removed for Content] grammatical errors.</p>

[Elwin]

<p><cite>Kazzo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just people raging because they can't play their class right... Troub is an amazing class to play if you know how to kite and everyone loves you in groups!</p></blockquote><p>God loves bards <3</p><p>Oh lol on a side note and for amusement purposes only, I grouped last night on my warlock. In group was a 'dirge' and this is at 90. After the healer died on numerous occasions and was not being revived by the 'dirge' I asked the dirge (term used lightly here) why he was not rezzing.</p><p>His reply 'I don't have a rez'.</p><p>Ok now at the time I did not find this amusing and my reply to that may of been colourful, but yes knowing your class no matter what class it is would be the most important thing. Then it's up to you how good or how crap it will be.</p>

[Woetohice]

<p>/agree with everything Aaramis said</p><p>It certainly was harder 2-3 expansions ago, but I still don't think it was that hard really, if you were patient and harvested a bit to get decent armor/spells.</p>

[Spectre]

<p>If you have a good amount of AAs, have your gear at Master Crafted (/w adornments), and at least adept 3 spells...  Not really that hard to solo.  It is not a class that is a crazy soloer like the SK (I have both), but it can hold it's own.  It is the player 99% of the time that lacks the class knowledge that makes most classes hard to solo.</p><p>A well geared Troub with max AAs is doing 30k DPS (better dps than most those people that say troubs suck), and handing out Trouby love to all the casters =)</p>

[Katungi]

<p>I agree with the op. Probably why i hardly ever post here. My Troub. is the most fun class i've ever played in a mmo. And i've played mmo's for 10 years.</p>

[Shygar]

<p>Well I have taken time to read everyones post about our beloved class, and while I was extremly disgusted at the begfining of the new expansion I have grown to love some of the new end line abilities we have been given, and frankly with some of the new HM raid gear it shows.</p><p>At the begining of the expan I was around the 22 to 35k dps parse, quite low, and no matter what my rotation or play style i choose, I  could not  get over that hump, however i went on a tangent a few weeks ago and decided that I wanted to work all the kinks out no matter what and I did, so I did and came up with a great rotation and now go from 44k upwards to 90k dps, but no where near where the dirges are, since they are pretty much guaranteed alot more than us with there epic buff, but thats not all, i can rant about that but i wont, fact is, they have a job to do and so do I so I just concentrate on mine now. </p><p>Troubs are a great class to play, we are basically all the classes tossed into one class, we can range, cast spells, debuff, auto attack like crazy and much more, but with the significant changes that we have been nerfed with I have found that it is so important to utilize other traits more now than before</p><p>for instance, ro/vc is [Removed for Content] now, and to truely get a good one you have to be able to do max damage in a short amount of time and honestly it isnt worth it, but any damage a mob takes is, so I keep it and use it and while i do not get any benifit from it my mage grp does, and that is what counts, the old premise of hitting the mob with recording and nuking it hard is gone, since we no longer crit, its appalling hat soe would want to screw us like this but they have and we now just have to take the ma they give us and use it to our advantage, which is what i do, however I only wish they could do something about the amount of arrows we are using. So in short, we troubs are a great class that with a few tweaks can be even better, but at present, look at casting speeds, multi attack and get that crit bonus up, cause those are the things that make us a great Scout</p><p>I ll post more later but we are not  just a buff class, if thats how you are treated Id suggest another guild</p>

[Gimmiethat]

<p>Troub class doesn't suck, but...  we definitely weren't the 'winners' in this expansion.  Up until this expansion I would have argued that the troubs where very balanced.  When played 'right' a troub could definitely could hold down the utility slot in any group.  Dirges did the more obvious things -- rezzes and melee buffs... but troubs made the groups win!</p><p>After going through most of the DoV content currently available, things have changed.  Dirges have a definite advantage. Considering the stat consolidation, uncapping MA, new expansion AA for everyone, and inflated stats on expansion gear and weapons... the net affect is dirge buffs got stronger and troub buffs have been marginalized.</p><p>What was broken/useless on the troub list pre-DoV have remained just as broken/useless: Requim of Reflection, Countersong, Rejuvinating Celebration, Mezz & Charm (endgame).</p><p>Because stat consolidation, DoV AA's and gear have made it so easy to max casting and reuse timers... troub main buffs mean less: Upbeat tempo, jester cap, raxxyl's rousing tune.</p><p>Because DoV has generally favored melee dps over caster dps... dirge buffs mean more: myth buff, cacophony of blades, battlecry, dextrous sonata, harl's rousing tune, dead calm and rianna's relentless.</p><p>Post DoV there is no debate: Dirges are definitely the stronger bard class.  They produce higher personal dps, their melee buffs make a bigger difference than troub caster buffs, and they have the best incombat rez.</p><p>PS -- I have maxx level of both, but my main/main will always be the troub!</p>