Ranger or Swashie?

[Chuluinn]

<p>Ok....I now have my ranger and swashie to lvl 19 and was wondering which I should carry on with.   I am a casual, solo player who will rarely group or raid, just happy to wander around the place doing my own thing.</p><p>I am on a pvp server and enjoy the occasional pvp skirmish but would like a class that would be able to level ok and not be too owned during these occasional pvp fights.</p><p>At the moment I enjoy the ranger more than the swashie but, having read repeatedly that the ranger is gimped, am a bit concerned that if I carry on with the ranger, come the higher levels, the swashie will be more viable.   My melee skills are about average so I never expect too much from myself when I am 1v1 pvp wise.</p><p>I would be grateful for any advice/suggestions.</p>

[Raahl]

<p>Go with what you like.</p><p>Rangers are only really gimped in raids at higher levels. </p><p>Never played a Swashie, but my Ranger is awful fun.</p>

[Chuluinn]

<p>Thank you Raahl. was what I needed, will carry on with the Ranger.....wanted to anyway, just needed some encouragement <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />.</p>

[Raahl]

<p><cite>Chuluinn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Thank you Raahl. was what I needed, will carry on with the Ranger.....wanted to anyway, just needed some encouragement <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />.</p></blockquote><p>Just stay away from the Assassin parse threads.  They are a little depressing for a Ranger.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Kulaf]

<p>Swash solo a lot better than a Ranger.  I have both.</p>

[RingleToo]

<p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Go with what you like.</p><p>Rangers are only really gimped in raids at higher levels. </p><p>Never played a Swashie, but my Ranger is awful fun.</p></blockquote><p>Bah. Go with a Swashy! Raahl has 489 alts, and the highest level he's got to is like 3 then he creates another.</p><p>(Raahl's a guildie, it's my duty to poke fun at him <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />  )</p>

[Raahl]

<p><cite>RingleToo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Go with what you like.</p><p>Rangers are only really gimped in raids at higher levels. </p><p>Never played a Swashie, but my Ranger is awful fun.</p></blockquote><p>Bah. Go with a Swashy! Raahl has 489 alts, and the highest level he's got to is like 3 then he creates another.</p><p>(Raahl's a guildie, it's my duty to poke fun at him <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />  )</p></blockquote><p>That's 490, wait 489, wait 490 alts to you mister!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>Be a rebel. Go brigand. Being serious though, when your ranger's still firing away at mobs that you need to stay ranged against and the swashy/assassin is doing no dps, you can sling crap at them and infuriate them so much that it makes up for everything.</p><p>Ok, for real in all seriousness, the ranger has a very underappreciated ability to buff the tank's hate by a non-trivial amount and reduce the mob's defensive ratings significantly. A well played ranger can squishify a mob against physical damage to an equal degree as bards can debuff the mob not to mention the accuracy bonus on focus aim and the additional hate they can provide to the tank that can literally make an agro magnet out of even low parsing guardians. Rangers provide a lot more utility than people give them credit for, but it takes a skilled player to make such utility actually work, and it takes an equally as skilled not to mention informed player to understand that the ranger is responsible for that difference.</p>

[Striikor]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Be a rebel. Go brigand. Being serious though, when your ranger's still firing away at mobs that you need to stay ranged against and the swashy/assassin is doing no dps, you can sling crap at them and infuriate them so much that it makes up for everything.</p><p>Ok, for real in all seriousness, the ranger has a very underappreciated ability to buff the tank's hate by a non-trivial amount and reduce the mob's defensive ratings significantly. A well played ranger can squishify a mob against physical damage to an equal degree as bards can debuff the mob not to mention the accuracy bonus on focus aim and the additional hate they can provide to the tank that can literally make an agro magnet out of even low parsing guardians. Rangers provide a lot more utility than people give them credit for, but it takes a skilled player to make such utility actually work, and it takes an equally as skilled not to mention informed player to understand that the ranger is responsible for that difference.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry reverend, but what are you talking about?</p><p>A ranger has NO buff for the tank. The one hate increase a ranger has is an increase of ~30% hate for the next one to hit the mob (blame Arrow), regardless of who hits it. It could be the tank but it is generally unlikely.</p><p>Nature's Bonus (not Focus Aim, the Focus Aim part is ranger only) is under-rated IMO and does provide a nice ToHit% buff that can result in a 100% hit rate for the group 1/3 of the time (15 or 20seconds every minute or so). It is not as nice as the constant though smaller ToHit% available elsewhere.</p><p>As for debuffs all scouts have debuffs the brigand has by far the best debuffs, followed by bards, swashy's then lastly rangers.</p><p>For hate tansfer swashy is best followed by the assassin, unless you count a dirges hate control in there. Rangers have passive hate dump on their own DPS nothing else.</p><p>A Ranger is very fun to solo (in the open) more fun than anything I have played. Not so fun if you do not have room to kite. A Ranger can be very frustrating in instances if you are trying to solo.</p><p>Swashy's solo fine, not as fun or as effective as a Ranger in open territory IMO, but the swashy is quite a bit better in closed areas.</p><p>Unless some changes happen you are better off with a swashy because your play style may change and you may want to do instance groups and/or raids.</p><p>I have a 80/250AA Ranger and an assassin, I would currently trade one of them for a swashy, but ..... that is just me.</p>

[RingleToo]

<p><cite>Striikor@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Be a rebel. Go brigand. Being serious though, when your ranger's still firing away at mobs that you need to stay ranged against and the swashy/assassin is doing no dps, you can sling crap at them and infuriate them so much that it makes up for everything.</p><p>Ok, for real in all seriousness, the ranger has a very underappreciated ability to buff the tank's hate by a non-trivial amount and reduce the mob's defensive ratings significantly. A well played ranger can squishify a mob against physical damage to an equal degree as bards can debuff the mob not to mention the accuracy bonus on focus aim and the additional hate they can provide to the tank that can literally make an agro magnet out of even low parsing guardians. Rangers provide a lot more utility than people give them credit for, but it takes a skilled player to make such utility actually work, and it takes an equally as skilled not to mention informed player to understand that the ranger is responsible for that difference.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry reverend, but what are you talking about?</p><p>A ranger has NO buff for the tank. The one hate increase a ranger has is an increase of ~30% hate for the next one to hit the mob (blame Arrow), regardless of who hits it. It could be the tank but it is generally unlikely.</p><p>Nature's Bonus (not Focus Aim, the Focus Aim part is ranger only) is under-rated IMO and does provide a nice ToHit% buff that can result in a 100% hit rate for the group 1/3 of the time (15 or 20seconds every minute or so). It is not as nice as the constant though smaller ToHit% available elsewhere.</p><p>As for debuffs all scouts have debuffs the brigand has by far the best debuffs, followed by bards, swashy's then lastly rangers.</p><p>For hate tansfer swashy is best followed by the assassin, unless you count a dirges hate control in there. Rangers have passive hate dump on their own DPS nothing else.</p><p>A Ranger is very fun to solo (in the open) more fun than anything I have played. Not so fun if you do not have room to kite. A Ranger can be very frustrating in instances if you are trying to solo.</p><p>Swashy's solo fine, not as fun or as effective as a Ranger in open territory IMO, but the swashy is quite a bit better in closed areas.</p><p>Unless some changes happen you are better off with a swashy because your play style may change and you may want to do instance groups and/or raids.</p><p>I have a 80/250AA Ranger and an assassin, I would currently trade one of them for a swashy, but ..... that is just me.</p></blockquote><p>Minor disagreement about the debuffs in that the Brigand does have the best defensive debuffs (and bard does have a nice variety of debuffs - or Dirge anyway. I have no idea about the troub.). But the Swashy has the best - and most under appreciated - offensive debuffs.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>Striikor: There is more than just the one attack that rangers get that modifies hate. It is not as much as a constant transfer, but it still is an amount that causes a difference. The hawk transfers hate, and although it is not a lot, it is still something. The only individuals this will not help is the paladins because amends causes transfers to get averaged down. Everyone else can still benefit fully from the hawk, and honestly from the amount of QQ over amends extra 3% that it gives beyond regular tanks in properly buffed groups, even if it's doing as little as 3% transfer to the tank, it's giving other fighters a bigger amount of hate than amends gives paladins in raids and many groups. Blame arrow is one of those things that works well with a group that does have transfers, and a good ranger (naser on butcherblock for example) will time his blame arrow right before a huge nuke if the target is getting their hate siphoned, will time it between tanks attacks, or will at minimum be able to get it to proc on himself so that his primal reflexes will negate most of the difference in hate gain. Thats basic hate management and most classes are capable of doing small things similar in nature to help control hate, but it's still enough that when I'm in groups with the few good rangers I do know, it's a noticeable difference.</p><p>A ranger that uses Ensnare will make wizzies happier and Trick of the Hunter if the ranger still uses it makes all mages a little happier. Crippling arrow decreases deflection and parry of mobs by 75 at the top tier Grandmaster quality and that does make a noticeable impact to how frequently you'll land a melee attack versus get parried/reposted especially with the number of fighter mobs there are, and snipe reduces targets defense by over 60 at top tier expert quality or higher which also makes a noticeable difference. Focus Aim gives + to skills for all melee types and it's not a trivial amount either.</p><p>These are all minor contributions, but they help none the less. The skill debuffs are taking mobs down by about 12 to 15 levels worth of defensive skills, and focus aim brings the group members skills up by 25 levels. Sure + to skills is not a huge deal and is questionable how usefull it really even is, but thats still a non-trivial amount. When I run with the rangers that use their debuffs, it does make a noticeable effect.</p><p>If you want to naysay the benefits that you do actually bring to a group and bash on your own class by all means feel free to, but just remember that there are dps classes that bring higher numbers and not using everything you have to your advantage only hurts your class and gives more reason to bring someone other than your ranger.</p>

[Seiffil]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Striikor: There is more than just the one attack that rangers get that modifies hate. It is not as much as a constant transfer, but it still is an amount that causes a difference. The hawk transfers hate, and although it is not a lot, it is still something. The only individuals this will not help is the paladins because amends causes transfers to get averaged down. Everyone else can still benefit fully from the hawk, and honestly from the amount of QQ over amends extra 3% that it gives beyond regular tanks in properly buffed groups, even if it's doing as little as 3% transfer to the tank, it's giving other fighters a bigger amount of hate than amends gives paladins in raids and many groups. Blame arrow is one of those things that works well with a group that does have transfers, and a good ranger (naser on butcherblock for example) will time his blame arrow right before a huge nuke if the target is getting their hate siphoned, will time it between tanks attacks, or will at minimum be able to get it to proc on himself so that his primal reflexes will negate most of the difference in hate gain. Thats basic hate management and most classes are capable of doing small things similar in nature to help control hate, but it's still enough that when I'm in groups with the few good rangers I do know, it's a noticeable difference.</p><p>A ranger that uses Ensnare will make wizzies happier and Trick of the Hunter if the ranger still uses it makes all mages a little happier. Crippling arrow decreases deflection and parry of mobs by 75 at the top tier Grandmaster quality and that does make a noticeable impact to how frequently you'll land a melee attack versus get parried/reposted especially with the number of fighter mobs there are, and snipe reduces targets defense by over 60 at top tier expert quality or higher which also makes a noticeable difference. Focus Aim gives + to skills for all melee types and it's not a trivial amount either.</p><p>These are all minor contributions, but they help none the less. The skill debuffs are taking mobs down by about 12 to 15 levels worth of defensive skills, and focus aim brings the group members skills up by 25 levels. Sure + to skills is not a huge deal and is questionable how usefull it really even is, but thats still a non-trivial amount. When I run with the rangers that use their debuffs, it does make a noticeable effect.</p><p>If you want to naysay the benefits that you do actually bring to a group and bash on your own class by all means feel free to, but just remember that there are dps classes that bring higher numbers and not using everything you have to your advantage only hurts your class and gives more reason to bring someone other than your ranger.</p></blockquote><p>Hawk has to hit to transfer hate, and it siphons hate to itself.  It's not really useful at all for aggro control, since generally #1, it doesn't hit, and #2 if the mob sneezes it's dead.  You can't rely on trick shot and it's hate increasing proc for aggro management.  In heroic instances if I get either snipe or ensnare in, it's only because I use snipe when I engage, most mobs I run into in a heroic instance unless we have low dps, don't live long enough to worry about debuffing.  A ranger's usefulness is first and foremost their dps, while there is some other stuff we bring to the group, you really seem to exagerate the amount of utility we bring.  It's pretty much dps and the to hit portion for nature's focus.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Seiffil@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Striikor: There is more than just the one attack that rangers get that modifies hate. It is not as much as a constant transfer, but it still is an amount that causes a difference. The hawk transfers hate, and although it is not a lot, it is still something. The only individuals this will not help is the paladins because amends causes transfers to get averaged down. Everyone else can still benefit fully from the hawk, and honestly from the amount of QQ over amends extra 3% that it gives beyond regular tanks in properly buffed groups, even if it's doing as little as 3% transfer to the tank, it's giving other fighters a bigger amount of hate than amends gives paladins in raids and many groups. Blame arrow is one of those things that works well with a group that does have transfers, and a good ranger (naser on butcherblock for example) will time his blame arrow right before a huge nuke if the target is getting their hate siphoned, will time it between tanks attacks, or will at minimum be able to get it to proc on himself so that his primal reflexes will negate most of the difference in hate gain. Thats basic hate management and most classes are capable of doing small things similar in nature to help control hate, but it's still enough that when I'm in groups with the few good rangers I do know, it's a noticeable difference.</p><p>A ranger that uses Ensnare will make wizzies happier and Trick of the Hunter if the ranger still uses it makes all mages a little happier. Crippling arrow decreases deflection and parry of mobs by 75 at the top tier Grandmaster quality and that does make a noticeable impact to how frequently you'll land a melee attack versus get parried/reposted especially with the number of fighter mobs there are, and snipe reduces targets defense by over 60 at top tier expert quality or higher which also makes a noticeable difference. Focus Aim gives + to skills for all melee types and it's not a trivial amount either.</p><p><strong>These are all minor contributions, but they help none the less.</strong> The skill debuffs are taking mobs down by about 12 to 15 levels worth of defensive skills, and focus aim brings the group members skills up by 25 levels. Sure + to skills is not a huge deal and is questionable how usefull it really even is, but thats still a non-trivial amount. When I run with the rangers that use their debuffs, it does make a noticeable effect.</p><p>If you want to naysay the benefits that you do actually bring to a group and bash on your own class by all means feel free to, but just remember that there are dps classes that bring higher numbers and not using everything you have to your advantage only hurts your class and gives more reason to bring someone other than your ranger.</p></blockquote><p>Hawk has to hit to transfer hate, and it siphons hate to itself.  It's not really useful at all for aggro control, since generally #1, it doesn't hit, and #2 if the mob sneezes it's dead.  You can't rely on trick shot and it's hate increasing proc for aggro management.  In heroic instances if I get either snipe or ensnare in, it's only because I use snipe when I engage, most mobs I run into in a heroic instance unless we have low dps, don't live long enough to worry about debuffing.  A ranger's usefulness is first and foremost their dps, while there is some other stuff we bring to the group, you really seem to exagerate the amount of utility we bring.  It's pretty much dps and the to hit portion for nature's focus.</p></blockquote><p>I'm pretty sure I see "These are all minor contributions, but they help none the less." up there. I bolded it. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That is the paragraph that I feel the strongest about because it is true. Even in groups that are doing good dps and are not completely trivializing the content to the point of 3 second pulls (which if that were the case I wouldn't bring that many folks for the run since it just lessens my chance at potential masters and lessens the coin from the chest), the debuffs the rangers I play with do make a difference and they still do parse respectably and for some reason they keep managing to do it time and time again so it's not just a fluke. Somehow they manage to debuff and parse pretty well, thats all I'm saying.</p>

[Striikor]

<p>My advice is based on my observations and experience. RevrendPago yours are equally valid IMO. The question was which to choose I felt I gave reasons for both.</p><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Striikor: There is more than just the one attack that rangers get that modifies hate. It is not as much as a constant transfer, but it still is an amount that causes a difference. <strong>The hawk transfers hate, and although it is not a lot, it is still something<span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> no actually it does not, check your act it dies or it fails to hit 90% of the time. Truth is it is still on my hot bar for those times that I have nothing else to throw. It may make you feel good but it does no good. Blame arrow actually causes problems with aggro unless you a duoing and wait for the the other guy to get a hit</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;">.</span></strong> The only individuals this will not help is the paladins because amends causes transfers to get averaged down. Everyone else can still benefit fully from the hawk, and honestly from the amount of QQ over amends extra 3% that it gives beyond regular tanks in properly buffed groups, even if it's doing as little as <strong>3% transfer</strong> <span style="color: #ff0000;">it does not transfer it siphons, it only siphons if it hits, it does live long enough or it does not hit the mobs I group or raid and I have it mastered </span>to the tank, it's giving other fighters a bigger amount of hate than amends gives paladins in raids and many groups. Blame arrow is one of those things that works well with a group that does have transfers, and a good ranger (naser on butcherblock for example) will time his blame arrow right before a huge nuke if the target is getting their hate siphoned, will time it between tanks attacks, or will at minimum be able to get it to proc on himself so that his primal reflexes will negate most of the difference in hate gain. Thats basic hate management and most classes are capable of doing small things similar in nature to help control hate, but it's still enough that when I'm in groups with the few good rangers I do know, it's a noticeable difference. <span style="color: #ff0000;">I must say the person who can reserve blame arrow for that and times it so specifically is much better than I am, kudos. I can't time it so specifically as I cannot communicate so effectively with 5 other players to make sure which one trips the hate gain on their attack. And primal reflexes at less than 30% cannot offset the 30% hate gain IMO.</span></p><p>A ranger that uses Ensnare will make wizzies happier and Trick of the Hunter if the ranger still uses it makes all mages a little happier. Crippling arrow decreases deflection and parry of mobs by 75 at the top tier Grandmaster quality and that does make a noticeable impact to how frequently you'll land a melee attack versus get parried/reposted especially with the number of fighter mobs there are, and snipe reduces targets defense by over 60 at top tier expert quality or higher which also makes a noticeable difference. Focus Aim gives + to skills for all melee types and it's not a trivial amount either. <span style="color: #ff0000;">All true but as I stated they a less effective than what is available elsewhere.</span></p><p>These are all minor contributions, but they help none the less. The skill debuffs are taking mobs down by about 12 to 15 levels worth of defensive skills, and focus aim brings the group members skills up by 25 levels. Sure + to skills is not a huge deal and is questionable how usefull it really even is, but thats still a non-trivial amount. When I run with the rangers that use their debuffs, it does make a noticeable effect.</p><p>If you want to naysay the benefits that you do actually bring to a group and bash on your own class by all means feel free to, but just remember that there are dps classes that bring higher numbers and not using everything you have to your advantage only hurts your class and gives more reason to bring someone other than your ranger. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Again I love my Ranger, mostly for BG right now though I still raid and group him. But I believe I was answering the question that was asked, which to chose. I think I answered it correctly. In that it depends primarily on what you enjoy. With an eye to how your game play may evolve. I also noted that the opinion was as things stand now. It is hoped that there a changes coming that will make the choice less obvious. I would pick a swashy right now unless what I like to do was run open spaces ... solo. If that is the case the Ranger is the best option. If you have a Ranger and you run your ranger well, have good equipment and enjoy it then by all means keep it and like me wait for some beneficial changes to happen.</span></p></blockquote>

[FrostDragon]

<p>Nice posts ReverandPago and Striikor.</p><p>   as a BG dirge I will have to make more of a point of dumping that hawk when I am trying to beat up a ranger.</p><p>   I will have to pass that on in help channels when newbie rangers ask questions. </p>