Soloability imbalance

[Raahl]

<p>I was harvesting in TT yesterday near the stone area just off the zone in.  A character came along, grabbed 6-8 of the droags, level 57 mobs, and proceeded to decimate them.  This character didn't go below green on their health bar.</p><p>Now what level was this character?  52.  What class was this character?  SK</p><p>Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to inspect the SK before he ran off.</p><p>I've seen something similar when doing the quests leading up to the solo LS shard quest.  A SK comes into the area, just to the left of the docks, grabs a bunch of the mobs and kills them in short order.  At the time I was more annoyed because I needed those mobs for the quest, so I didn't look at their level or inspect them.</p><p>If I were to do either of these with my guardian at those level, I would have died!  Not sure about the other classes.</p><p>What makes it possible for the SK class to trivialize content like this and when might we see the other fighter classes get similar capabilities?</p><p>I suspect it's the combination of Survivability and DPS that allows them to do this.  To my knowledge no other fighter class has this ability.</p><p>The fix for this will probably be different for each of the remaining classes.  I suspect that brawlers might need more survivabily and a little more DPS and that Warriors would need more DPS and possibly little survivability.</p><p>Could the Devs please look into what I have observed and verify that nothing screwy was going on to skew their ability to solo large quantities of mobs.</p>

[Obadiah]

<p>So you have no name of the player, no time, not even a server - just a day and a zone, and you want the developers to check to see that they weren't cheating? And you haven't attempted it with a level 52 Guardian, you're just assuming they would die?</p><p>6 - 8 of those Droags = 3-4 groups. These mobs were first encountered when players had 0 AA. A level 52 SK today likely has at least 50AA, maybe 100. I'm pretty confident I could kill 3-4 groups of TT level 57 mobs with any toon of any class (except Troub) at level 52 wearing at least 52 Mastercrafted gear with 50-100 AA. A Guardian with 40% Autoattack and 40 or so more AA points spent should do just fine.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>Well, he is right guardians suck horribly compared to shadowknights while soloing. This is nothing new though. Soloing as an assassin is a pain, especially if there are multiple mobs. Soloing as a ranger is easy and fun. Easier to solo with a wizard than it is a warlock. Hell... easier to solo as a shadowknight than a paladin. Easier to solo as a zerker than a guard... always been that way. It's just the way it is, and I don't think 24 classes will ever be balanced in solo play.</p>

[Raahl]

<p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So you have no name of the player, no time, not even a server - just a day and a zone, and you want the developers to check to see that they weren't cheating? And you haven't attempted it with a level 52 Guardian, you're just assuming they would die?</p><p>6 - 8 of those Droags = 3-4 groups. These mobs were first encountered when players had 0 AA. A level 52 SK today likely has at least 50AA, maybe 100. I'm pretty confident I could kill 3-4 groups of TT level 57 mobs with any toon of any class (except Troub) at level 52 wearing at least 52 Mastercrafted gear with 50-100 AA. A Guardian with 40% Autoattack and 40 or so more AA points spent should do just fine.</p></blockquote><p>Najena, sorry didn't write a name down, around 7-8pm EST.  And no I don't think they were "Cheating" and I don't want the devs to investigate this as cheating.</p><p>It wasn't that long ago that I was there with my guardian, so I can only go off of my own experience when there.   At level 52 I believe those mobs are Red or at best Orange for a level 52 character, correct me if I am wrong.  No matter how many AA's a character has, taking on 6-8 red/orange mobs at the same time seems a little excessive.</p><p>Why so much hate Kurgan?  Am I hitting a nerve or something?  BTW I don't have the same confidence that you do.  Having leveled 2 characters through TT (Guardian and Troubador (now dirge)), I can safely say I would have died doing what I saw.</p>

[Raahl]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well, he is right guardians suck horribly compared to shadowknights while soloing. This is nothing new though. Soloing as an assassin is a pain, especially if there are multiple mobs. Soloing as a ranger is easy and fun. Easier to solo with a wizard than it is a warlock. Hell... easier to solo as a shadowknight than a paladin. Easier to solo as a zerker than a guard... always been that way. It's just the way it is, and I don't think 24 classes will ever be balanced in solo play.</p></blockquote><p>Saying wizards solo better than warlocks is funny.  Both suck solo wise.  A resisted root/stun/mez and they are in trouble. </p><p>I do not see any other class being able to survive what I witnessed.  That's my point.   A ranger/assassin/wizard/warlock/zerker or any non SK class would have died doing that. </p><p>Again my point is having multiple mobs on a character at the same time and doing so in quick order.</p>

[Obadiah]

<p>No hate at all tbh, just trying to figure out what you were asking for. Nerfs to SKs; got it. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> That seems to be the purpose of the General Fighter Discussion forum for the last 8 months or so. Makes sense.</p><p>I wish there was a way to go back and test as things like this always pique my curiousity but I'm certainly not leveling a Guardian to 52 just to see. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Hmmmm... I do see a 56 Guardian in MC gear I could potentially borrow. Some 61-62 Barren Sky mobs might be comparable ... bbl</p><p>"Suck horribly compared to shadowknights" is an exaggeration. You raise a good point though, it would probably be harder to do this on a squishie class because you couldn't lock them all down.</p>

[Raahl]

<p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No hate at all tbh, just trying to figure out what you were asking for. Nerfs to SKs; got it. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> That seems to be the purpose of the General Fighter Discussion forum for the last 8 months or so. Makes sense.</p><p>I wish there was a way to go back and test as things like this always pique my curiousity but I'm certainly not leveling a Guardian to 52 just to see. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Hmmmm... I do see a 56 Guardian in MC gear I could potentially borrow. Some 61-62 Barren Sky mobs might be comparable ... bbl</p><p>"Suck horribly compared to shadowknights" is an exaggeration. You raise a good point though, it would probably be harder to do this on a squishie class because you couldn't lock them all down.</p></blockquote><p>I guess I was reading more into your post than was there.</p><p>I'm really not calling for an SK nerf. My suggestions was the following.</p><p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The fix for this will probably be different for each of the remaining classes.  I suspect that brawlers might need more survivabily and a little more DPS and that Warriors would need more DPS and possibly little survivability.</p></blockquote><p><span></span></p><p>Perhaps I'll look into this more on test when I get a chance.</p>

[Landiin]

Crusaders are horribly broken ATM. They may get the much needed fix in the next exp. That is if they get the "new player" experience working so they have time to work on classes.

[Raahl]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Crusaders are horribly broken ATM. They may get the much needed fix in the next exp. That is if they get the "new player" experience working so they have time to work on classes.</blockquote><p>I'm a bit peeved about the lack of interest in fixing class issues and balance by Sony.</p><p>Leave crusaders as they are, just fix ever other fighter class to be able to compete at the same level.   Little tweaks to each class should be all that is needed.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>The real question is can you Chronomage on Najena?  Because if you can and that was really a level 90 player mentored down to 52 this whole thread is just dumb.  Mentoring is extremely OP'd no matter what class you are and any level 90 toon with decent gear can mentor down that far and pull whatever they want no problem.</p><p>Toran give up on the whole Crusaders are broken argument.  The fact is Crusaders and Zerkers are where people want to be....hence the whole discussion about making other classes more enjoyable like them.</p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I was harvesting in TT yesterday near the stone area just off the zone in.  A character came along, grabbed 6-8 of the droags, level 57 mobs, and proceeded to decimate them.  This character didn't go below green on their health bar.</p><p>Now what level was this character?  52.  What class was this character?  SK</p><p>Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to inspect the SK before he ran off.</p><p>I've seen something similar when doing the quests leading up to the solo LS shard quest.  A SK comes into the area, just to the left of the docks, grabs a bunch of the mobs and kills them in short order.  At the time I was more annoyed because I needed those mobs for the quest, so I didn't look at their level or inspect them.</p><p>If I were to do either of these with my guardian at those level, I would have died!  Not sure about the other classes.</p><p>What makes it possible for the SK class to trivialize content like this and when might we see the other fighter classes get similar capabilities?</p><p>I suspect it's the combination of Survivability and DPS that allows them to do this.  To my knowledge no other fighter class has this ability.</p><p>The fix for this will probably be different for each of the remaining classes.  I suspect that brawlers might need more survivabily and a little more DPS and that Warriors would need more DPS and possibly little survivability.</p><p>Could the Devs please look into what I have observed and verify that nothing screwy was going on to skew their ability to solo large quantities of mobs.</p></blockquote><p>I will first say that my sk has been the best solo fighter that I have. I have a monk, bruiser, and a zerker as well. Even before tso came about my sk then could solo like a beast.</p><p>Heres the thing. The sk you witnessed could have been geared well and possibly chronomaged down to that level and was running unfinished quest lines.</p><p>Also could have been lvl 52 but at one time level locked and gained massive amounts of aa giving the sk even more prowess at that level. Just to mention of all my fighters the sk has absolutely the best choices in aa's. Those aa's really really improve the sk beyond what would be expected of the other fighters.</p><p>"I suspect it's the combination of Survivability and DPS that allows them to do this.  To my knowledge no other fighter class has this ability". Your are 100% correct. The sk has the greatest potential in all catagories that relate to fighters.</p><p>There is nothing wrong or screwy with this. That is just how an sk rolls.</p><p>I would say get use to it. Not that you are calling for a nerf but it has been stated that calling for nerfing a class is the wrong thing to do these days.</p><p>My issue is that years ago brawlers could solo like the sk does today but do to an imbalance in how their avoidance worked brawlers got nerfed. There was no problem with this happening to brawlers back then but apparently in todays game it is wrong and will not be happening to sk's.</p><p>Again I play an sk. It is fun. However I do not support that my sk can keep excelling in tanking, dps, aggro, utility, and soloability when my other fighters are penalized leaving only one or two areas that they are good at but still below sk standards.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>My level 90 Guardian with 250 AA's could not Chronomage down to level 52 and kill 6-8 level 57^ mobs. I could probably kill 2 of them but I'd get hit to many times and killed before I could kill all of them. The other reason I couldn't Chronomage down to level 52 is in the next paragraph...</p><p>That being said, you can not Chronomage down to level 52. Level 50 or level 55. The only other option was that they were mentored to somebody, who was not with them. What possible reason would somebody mentor to 52 and kill mobs without your group member with you. Maybe they were invisable and didn't get hit by any of the group AoE's and DoT's all of those mobs do? Maybe? Lets roll the dice that have all 1's on it and see if we get a six.</p><p>So, the very high probability was that it was a solo person that was level 52 in gear that a level 52 can equip. Id' say there is a <5% chance it was anything other than this.</p><p>Please continue the discussion....</p>

[Ragnaphore]

<p>Any fighter with the right AAs and MC (or better) gear can do that TBH.</p><p>I leveled a paladin through KoS recently and with 5AA in TSO dmg reduction, non-heroic groups of mobs hit mostly for 0 there.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>"Suck horribly compared to shadowknights" is an exaggeration.</p></blockquote><p>In regards to guardian soloing, that's actually quite accurate and not an exaggeration at all.</p><p>Wizards don't suck at soloing btw. Yay for snares, stuns, and manashield.</p>

[Raahl]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The real question is can you Chronomage on Najena?  Because if you can and that was really a level 90 player mentored down to 52 this whole thread is just dumb.  Mentoring is extremely OP'd no matter what class you are and any level 90 toon with decent gear can mentor down that far and pull whatever they want no problem.</p><p>Toran give up on the whole Crusaders are broken argument.  The fact is Crusaders and Zerkers are where people want to be....hence the whole discussion about making other classes more enjoyable like them.</p></blockquote><p>That's what I was kind of asking the devs to check into.  If it was a mentoring issue then it was a screwy situation and is invalid.</p><p>But I can assure you that the LS level 80's were not a mentoring issue.  If anything the mobs were green to the SK and they had no issue with taking on a mob of them.  Something again I do not believe any other fighter class can do.</p>

[Raahl]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My level 90 Guardian with 250 AA's could not Chronomage down to level 52 and kill 6-8 level 57^ mobs. I could probably kill 2 of them but I'd get hit to many times and killed before I could kill all of them. The other reason I couldn't Chronomage down to level 52 is in the next paragraph...</p><p>That being said, you can not Chronomage down to level 52. Level 50 or level 55. The only other option was that they were mentored to somebody, who was not with them. What possible reason would somebody mentor to 52 and kill mobs without your group member with you. Maybe they were invisable and didn't get hit by any of the group AoE's and DoT's all of those mobs do? Maybe? Lets roll the dice that have all 1's on it and see if we get a six.</p><p>So, the very high probability was that it was a solo person that was level 52 in gear that a level 52 can equip. Id' say there is a <5% chance it was anything other than this.</p><p>Please continue the discussion....</p></blockquote><p>Good point Wasuna.  Chronomage is out.  Now mentoring could be the case.  Maybe they had another character nearby that needed updates from the mobs.  Without me inspecting them we may never know.</p><p>But having the example in lavastorm with the level 81'ish mobs sort of backs up the level 52 example somewhat.</p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My level 90 Guardian with 250 AA's could not Chronomage down to level 52 and kill 6-8 level 57^ mobs. I could probably kill 2 of them but I'd get hit to many times and killed before I could kill all of them.</p></blockquote><p>Good point Wasuna.  Chronomage is out.  Now mentoring could be the case.  Maybe they had another character nearby that needed updates from the mobs.  Without me inspecting them we may never know.</p><p>But having the example in lavastorm with the level 81'ish mobs sort of backs up the level 52 example somewhat.</p></blockquote><p>They are not 57^ mobs. They are 57v mobs.</p><p>That said, I grabbed a dusty 56 Guardian with lots of Adepts and all cobalt gear and 40 AA. Mostly DPS specced. Wielding a 2H. I would have tried with a shield but he didn't have one and I wasn't going to spend a ton of time on it. And the results with a 2H were pretty decisive. I couldn't handle 3 mobs (1 pair of 57v's and one no-arrow). So I stand corrected. Now, some AA and a shield may make it do-able, but still.</p><p>Now ... with a level 90 Guardian with no raid gear and 214 AAs I was able to Chronomentor to 50 and kill as many of those same mobs as I could pull without a worry in the world. But at "natural" 52-56 ... notsomuch.And as already  noted he couldn't have chronomentored to 52, but could have had a mentor buddy.</p><p>So now I'm curious. Were you close enough that his name would be in your logfile and you could look him up?</p>

[Raahl]

<p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My level 90 Guardian with 250 AA's could not Chronomage down to level 52 and kill 6-8 level 57^ mobs. I could probably kill 2 of them but I'd get hit to many times and killed before I could kill all of them.</p></blockquote><p>Good point Wasuna.  Chronomage is out.  Now mentoring could be the case.  Maybe they had another character nearby that needed updates from the mobs.  Without me inspecting them we may never know.</p><p>But having the example in lavastorm with the level 81'ish mobs sort of backs up the level 52 example somewhat.</p></blockquote><p>They are not 57^ mobs. They are 57v mobs.</p><p>That said, I grabbed a dusty 56 Guardian with lots of Adepts and all cobalt gear and 40 AA. Mostly DPS specced. Wielding a 2H. I would have tried with a shield but he didn't have one and I wasn't going to spend a ton of time on it. And the results with a 2H were pretty decisive. I couldn't handle 3 mobs (1 pair of 57v's and one no-arrow). So I stand corrected. Now, some AA and a shield may make it do-able, but still.</p><p>Now ... with a level 90 Guardian with no raid gear and 214 AAs I was able to Chronomentor to 50 and kill as many of those same mobs as I could pull without a worry in the world. But at "natural" 52-56 ... notsomuch.And as already  noted he couldn't have chronomentored to 52, but could have had a mentor buddy.</p><p>So now I'm curious. Were you close enough that his name would be in your logfile and you could look him up?</p></blockquote><p>You are a genius!  I'll look at my logs when I get home from work!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I'd really like to know the answer to this.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>I honestly can't believe this thread is still going and people are actually mentoring and using other toons to test it. Maybe in this particular case with these particular mobs at this particular level it could go either way but... You guys act all surprised that a shadowknight can solo things a guardian can't. Well... duh. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" /> It's been like that since pretty much at least since LU13, probably before then too.</p>

[Shiirr]

<p>I hate to say it, but if they were to bring every other tank up to SK's, rather than SK's more in line with what a tank is supposed to be, you'd see nothing but tanks, and a whole lot of "<insert non-plate wearing toon> LFG, will mentor or do anything!"  Ever since I came back, the class I see the most of is SK.  That's not a coincidence.  Hell, I'm a Swashy with DPS envy of a tank. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Shiirr@Blackburrow wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I hate to say it, but if they were to bring every other tank up to SK's, rather than SK's more in line with what a tank is supposed to be, you'd see nothing but tanks, and a whole lot of " LFG, will mentor or do anything!"  Ever since I came back, the class I see the most of is SK.  That's not a coincidence.  Hell, I'm a Swashy with DPS envy of a tank. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>No offense but you must be a terrible swashy.  Swashies are even pushing Sorcerors on ZW's.</p>

[Shiirr]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shiirr@Blackburrow wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I hate to say it, but if they were to bring every other tank up to SK's, rather than SK's more in line with what a tank is supposed to be, you'd see nothing but tanks, and a whole lot of " LFG, will mentor or do anything!"  Ever since I came back, the class I see the most of is SK.  That's not a coincidence.  Hell, I'm a Swashy with DPS envy of a tank. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>No offense but you must be a terrible swashy.  Swashies are even pushing Sorcerors on ZW's.</p></blockquote><p>None taken.  I'm only 39 on this toon; my 80 is on a dead account on Nagafen.  Putting out damage wasn't a problem with that toon, by the way.  However, and more to the point, SK's are top of the food chain right now, yes?  I tried one a while back, and deleted it because it was too frikkin' easy.  That was before the latest expansion, so all I can do now is watch an SK run through Kaladim pulling multiple yellow heroics and never leave the green while dropping mobs like flies.  Tell me that's balanced.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>In early EoF, my paladin would go in and solo an entire tree of droags to finish the city writs for droags. The first time I went up there, I was level 51, wearing treasured from that tier, adept skills, and about 40 aas. I left there with my tail soundly spanked and planted between my legs when I pulled more than one or two groups of droags. I came back after level locking and completing as many quests as I could without passing the cap level to do the droag writs (about 84 AAs before I got too close to risk finishing anymore quests because at that time you still got exp even when locked), got adept 3s or master skills for all of my abilities, full mastercrafted armor and jewelry, and revisited the droags.</p><p>I farmed those droags a full tree at a time including the solo named droag all at once in one massive pull until I had all the status points I could ever want, and I had successfully given enough status to level my guild 38 levels. I stayed that level to do the writs when the new guild level cap came out, and sold all the items I got off the droags and stocked up on the at the time highest level status items to hock when the expansion came out. I ended up contributing 1/3 of the status nessecary to make our guild the first on the server to reach the new level cap when RoK came out.</p><p>The point is that at that time, people kept calling me a bot or a cheater or OPed and other things. The fact of the matter was that I knew what I wanted and I set out with that intention as my only goal. I was majorly overgeared for the task, and spent a few months refining my ability to do so. Seeing as you don't have any information on the SK that pulled those droags and despite them being relatively easy and weak mobs, it could very well be that they did a similar thing. The gear, ability quality, and AA count made an epic difference when I did it back in EoF/early RoK, and with the massive explosion in power given by gear it's a MUCH easier task than it was back then so I can only imagine how much more trivial it is now to pull a few groups and drop them.</p><p>Odds are highly likely that the shadowknight you saw was geared well enough respecitvely to pull plenty of droags, but even if he wasn't, it's not like someone that knows how to play their class to any level of effectiveness, has mastercrafted gear, and has a moderate number of AAs couldn't do the same thing.</p>

[Raahl]

<p>Here is the name from my logs and yes he's a level 52, NOT mentoring.</p><p>Named Vulkas on Najena.  Full set of Mastercrafted armor and by my count 138 AA</p><p><a href="http://everquest2.com/Najena/Vulkas/">http://everquest2.com/Najena/Vulkas/</a></p>

[Raahl]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Odds are highly likely that the shadowknight you saw was geared well enough respecitvely to pull plenty of droags, but even if he wasn't, it's not like someone that knows how to play their class to any level of effectiveness, has mastercrafted gear, and has a moderate number of AAs couldn't do the same thing.</blockquote><p>Point is that a similarly equipped/AA'd non-SK would die.  These mobs were at the least orange to him.  His armor should have been crap to these mobs.</p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Odds are highly likely that the shadowknight you saw was geared well enough respecitvely to pull plenty of droags, but even if he wasn't, it's not like someone that knows how to play their class to any level of effectiveness, has mastercrafted gear, and has a moderate number of AAs couldn't do the same thing.</blockquote><p>Point is that a similarly equipped/AA'd non-SK would die.  These mobs were at the least orange to him.  His armor should have been crap to these mobs.</p></blockquote><p>Well ... you can't really say that without having a Warrior/Brawler with 138AA do it. My Guardian with 40AA had them all spent on offense and a 2-Hander. Not saying the results wouldn't be the same. They may be. But things like Battle Hardening goes a long way against that type of mob. Think you're probably right though, as the Guardian would be the only one of the 5 with no way of making his Health go up instead of down, even a little bit.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The real question is can you Chronomage on Najena?  Because if you can and that was really a level 90 player mentored down to 52 this whole thread is just dumb.  Mentoring is extremely OP'd no matter what class you are and any level 90 toon with decent gear can mentor down that far and pull whatever they want no problem.</p><p>Toran give up on the whole Crusaders are broken argument.  The fact is Crusaders and Zerkers are where people want to be....hence the whole discussion about making other classes more enjoyable like them.</p></blockquote><p>You can only cronomage in 5 level incriments so 52 would be impossible.</p>

[Raahl]

<p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Odds are highly likely that the shadowknight you saw was geared well enough respecitvely to pull plenty of droags, but even if he wasn't, it's not like someone that knows how to play their class to any level of effectiveness, has mastercrafted gear, and has a moderate number of AAs couldn't do the same thing.</blockquote><p>Point is that a similarly equipped/AA'd non-SK would die.  These mobs were at the least orange to him.  His armor should have been crap to these mobs.</p></blockquote><p>Well ... you can't really say that without having a Warrior/Brawler with 138AA do it. My Guardian with 40AA had them all spent on offense and a 2-Hander. Not saying the results wouldn't be the same. They may be. But things like Battle Hardening goes a long way against that type of mob. Think you're probably right though, as the Guardian would be the only one of the 5 with no way of making his Health go up instead of down, even a little bit.</p></blockquote><p>The mobs in that area are 57/58ish solo with some down arrows.  What's the level diff when mobs become orange?  The mitigation hit from orange mobs is pretty drastic.</p>

[Raahl]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The real question is can you Chronomage on Najena?  Because if you can and that was really a level 90 player mentored down to 52 this whole thread is just dumb.  Mentoring is extremely OP'd no matter what class you are and any level 90 toon with decent gear can mentor down that far and pull whatever they want no problem.</p><p>Toran give up on the whole Crusaders are broken argument.  The fact is Crusaders and Zerkers are where people want to be....hence the whole discussion about making other classes more enjoyable like them.</p></blockquote><p>You can only cronomage in 5 level incriments so 52 would be impossible.</p></blockquote><p>HEHE.  We figured that out.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Edminime]

<p>This was a fun read. Just to let you know Raahl is Corwin.</p>

[Raahl]

<p><cite>Edminime wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This was a fun read. Just to let you know Raahl is Corwin.</p></blockquote><p>And that was a secret how?  It's in my sig, duh?</p><p>And just to enlighten you I'm asking to have all fighters brought up to the level of fun that our SK friends enjoy.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Eritius]

<p>I've seen the priest classes do this. My necromancer is able to do this as well, I'd imagine Conj's can do it too.</p><p>I don't believe this means crusaders need nerfs. But other classes need to be brought up to that level. Its annoying to play a ranger and the tank has to pull one at a time because its a guardian, not because of AoE capability, but because it will kill them.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Edminime wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This was a fun read. Just to let you know Raahl is Corwin.</p></blockquote><p>And that was a secret how?  It's in my sig, duh?</p><p>And just to enlighten you I'm asking to have all fighters brought up to the level of fun that our SK friends enjoy.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Honestly, looking at his gear it's not really a shock that he can take mobs like that. His gear and AA is very good for that level, and the droags in TT are not exactly examples of undercons but rather if anything overcons.</p><p>TBH, when you rolled the guardian, you should have known that it was a "defensive class" as it eludes to in the description which means you'll need to have some meaty gear. He has 141 AAs versus your 128 30 levels higher. He has 2335 mitigation at 52 which is pretty much the most you're going to get. Yours is 3711 at 82 and to compare T2 void armor which was considered the standard of players entering SF at 80 gives 3753 mitigation + additional mitigation bonuses for crusaders, and iirc the warriors isn't that far off from the same thing. Mastercrafted armor at 82 gives 3581 mitigation but gives more dps than the shard armor does. That effectively means that you're wearing slightly better than mastercrafted gear, but less than what was considered the "standard" for characters that were cap level upon entering SF, not to mention you don't have an epic weapon and one of your weapons is the glowing void blade from OoA which is considered to be effectively a trash drop.</p><p>It boils down to; he's respectively much better geared considering whats available to him, and has noticeably more AA, and thats also not withstanding that SKs solo much better than guards, so it's absolutely no shock at all that he's capable of doing more. An sk in that gear would do better than a guard in equivilant gear true, and the guard does need some lovin to get their hate back in line and their survivability to a point where it can make them shine again, but you're more imediate results will be found if you upgrade your equipment. Not to be a jerk or anything because thats not my intention, but seriously thats the reality of it. Even getting the full BG set would be a noticeable upgrade for you. Being a tank is a matter of math and how to best stack the numbers in your odds, and the game rewards those with gear much more than those with the flavor of the month or year classes.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shiirr@Blackburrow wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I hate to say it, but if they were to bring every other tank up to SK's, rather than SK's more in line with what a tank is supposed to be, you'd see nothing but tanks, and a whole lot of " LFG, will mentor or do anything!"  Ever since I came back, the class I see the most of is SK.  That's not a coincidence.  Hell, I'm a Swashy with DPS envy of a tank. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>No offense but you must be a terrible swashy.  Swashies are even pushing Sorcerors on ZW's.</p></blockquote><p>Wrong you just have terrible sorc's.</p>

[Raahl]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Edminime wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This was a fun read. Just to let you know Raahl is Corwin.</p></blockquote><p>And that was a secret how?  It's in my sig, duh?</p><p>And just to enlighten you I'm asking to have all fighters brought up to the level of fun that our SK friends enjoy.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Honestly, looking at his gear it's not really a shock that he can take mobs like that. His gear and AA is very good for that level, and the droags in TT are not exactly examples of undercons but rather if anything overcons.</p><p>TBH, when you rolled the guardian, you should have known that it was a "defensive class" as it eludes to in the description which means you'll need to have some meaty gear. He has 141 AAs versus your 128 30 levels higher. He has 2335 mitigation at 52 which is pretty much the most you're going to get. Yours is 3711 at 82 and to compare T2 void armor which was considered the standard of players entering SF at 80 gives 3753 mitigation + additional mitigation bonuses for crusaders, and iirc the warriors isn't that far off from the same thing. Mastercrafted armor at 82 gives 3581 mitigation but gives more dps than the shard armor does. That effectively means that you're wearing slightly better than mastercrafted gear, but less than what was considered the "standard" for characters that were cap level upon entering SF, not to mention you don't have an epic weapon and one of your weapons is the glowing void blade from OoA which is considered to be effectively a trash drop.</p><p>It boils down to; he's respectively much better geared considering whats available to him, and has noticeably more AA, and thats also not withstanding that SKs solo much better than guards, so it's absolutely no shock at all that he's capable of doing more. An sk in that gear would do better than a guard in equivilant gear true, and the guard does need some lovin to get their hate back in line and their survivability to a point where it can make them shine again, but you're more imediate results will be found if you upgrade your equipment. Not to be a jerk or anything because thats not my intention, but seriously thats the reality of it. Even getting the full BG set would be a noticeable upgrade for you. Being a tank is a matter of math and how to best stack the numbers in your odds, and the game rewards those with gear much more than those with the flavor of the month or year classes.</p></blockquote><p>TBH you do realize that the other tank classes, including our SK friends, are just as good defense wise as a guardian. </p><p>So the Argument that our description is a defensive class goes out the window because that LU #13 changed that.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>TBH you do realize that the other tank classes, including our SK friends, are just as good defense wise as a guardian. </p><p>So the Argument that our description is a defensive class goes out the window because that LU #13 changed that.</p></blockquote><p>The guards were not lacking defensive capacity over the other tanks all the way back from LU #13 and on, that happened in TSO. LU #13 pretty much tossed everything out the window that was accepted at the time, but it also was when SK's lost most of their value and it stayed that way all the way up until TSO. Your point?</p><p>Don't neglect to keep in mind that I also play a troub who is equally as ignored as the summoners and rangers were because at least they got a bone thrown in their direction recently. Troubs as well as dirges in addition lack pretty much any itemization progression in SF, and troubs still have power draining skills; remember those from when they were all <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">taken out of the game</span> all supposed to be taken out of the game? I shouldn't even need to say it though since you were once a troub. I'm still saying it though for those that don't know the context. BTW, nice group moderate the guards got, glad to see something your class posted about was actually read and implimented because it gives hope to those of us that are still ignored on every level.</p><p>The point is that you could be neglected a TON more than you are currently and guards have only had issues since TSO, so becarefull what you QQ about because it could always get worse. The SK in TT was way higher than need be to fight those droags and complaining that someone overgeared for the task is doing as well as expected is detrimental to getting the real issues fixed of which I don't see any suggestions for.</p><p>Also, iirc, those droags are in groups of 2 with 1 or 2 down arrows solo con which makes them pretty cake even for a lower level with adequate gear and AA which he did have but more importantly they don't hit that hard if you have good mitigation. Incase you didn't know, shadowknights are exponentially more powerful when fighting lots of weak hitting mobs than when they are fighting single hard hitting mobs due to % procs and other healing abilities they have when they land hits which is the exact scenario you described. If he had pulled drakes down in the breeding grounds, I'm certain he'd have gotten soundly whooped without a single prayer. Either way, I'm done responding in this thread as it's just another QQ fest. If you're really that upset about the state the guards are in, betray to zerker or roll a different class and start enjoying the game again because it's just that; a game, and it's meant to be played for enjoyment which it appears you are not experiencing in the form of a guard.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shiirr@Blackburrow wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I hate to say it, but if they were to bring every other tank up to SK's, rather than SK's more in line with what a tank is supposed to be, you'd see nothing but tanks, and a whole lot of " LFG, will mentor or do anything!"  Ever since I came back, the class I see the most of is SK.  That's not a coincidence.  Hell, I'm a Swashy with DPS envy of a tank. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>No offense but you must be a terrible swashy.  Swashies are even pushing Sorcerors on ZW's.</p></blockquote><p>Wrong you just have terrible sorc's.</p></blockquote><p>Or more likely you just have never played with a good Swash.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shiirr@Blackburrow wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I hate to say it, but if they were to bring every other tank up to SK's, rather than SK's more in line with what a tank is supposed to be, you'd see nothing but tanks, and a whole lot of " LFG, will mentor or do anything!"  Ever since I came back, the class I see the most of is SK.  That's not a coincidence.  Hell, I'm a Swashy with DPS envy of a tank. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>No offense but you must be a terrible swashy.  Swashies are even pushing Sorcerors on ZW's.</p></blockquote><p>Wrong you just have terrible sorc's.</p></blockquote><p>Or more likely you just have never played with a good Swash.</p></blockquote><p>Nope my guild's swash is always at the top WW, in fact head to head he probably just wipes his feet with yours.  Guess what, our sorcs still beat him.  Actually pretty much you could go down my whole raid roster and player for player your guild would get smashed, but hey we can just look at progression and figure that out.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>EDIT: Deleted due to irrelevence with the OP.</p>

[RAYVEN2]

<p>Is the original person posting serious?  Those Droags are normal no arrow mobs.  Depending on gear a bunch of classes can do that.  Good gear can allow you to trivialize content.  If he had the good gear for his level then I could see him taking 6 of those mobs and not breaking a sweat.  A lot of the gear from the new expansions is overpowering at the lower levels.  Remember you can mentor instances down to 50.  Maybe the original person posting should do so and gear up and then try this himself.......    </p>

[RAYVEN2]

<p>I bet you a warden would own then all without even breathing heavy at the end. </p>

[Aull]

<p>I remember when guards and zerkers had the most difficult time soloing stuff. Monks and bruisers years ago actually solo'ed better than the other fighters.</p><p>Just because one class can solo well should not entitle all others to be equal. The same goes for survivability, utility, dps, ect.</p><p>Players being the ones to give suggestions as to how each class "should" perform is not how the game should work. There are developers that are being paid to do this.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>{Derailing rant} At the same time though, if they're going to make a vast percentage of content that requires certain things, every class should be capable of bringing something that falls within that category.</p><p>Back in RoK when paladins literally got one shotted by almost every raid mob worth fighting, there was an obvious problem, but the developer's didn't seem to think so. When shadowknights up until TSO could barely function for beans even with top of the line gear, there was an obvious problem but the developers didn't seem to think so. When guards where [Removed for Content] owning things in RoK with sta line and then in TSO onwards are struggling to even keep their heads above the water in the agro pool, there was and is an obvious problem but the developers didn't/don't seem to think so. When mages that were mastered were getting resisted literally 40% or more and melee hit rates were rediculously high durring that epic GU of spell resist rediculousness, there was an obvious problem but the developers didn't seem to think so. When they "fixed" the resists so that both melee and magic didn't hit for beans instead of simply fixing the real problem of spell resists, there was an obvious problem but the developers didn't seem to think so. These things were cried about on the forums so hard that it was inevitable that something would have to be done to please the rightfully upset majority of the population.</p><p>The ideal path is for the developers to respect the desires and opinions of the players as simply and only that, and then make decisions from a one vs one even comparison (example, sk vs zerker balance since it's aoe vs aoe) and they should be working on classes they do NOT have vested interests in (such as actively play as their main class). We all however know how that ends up working out.</p><p>Seeing as the developers often times either shove the nerf bat so far up a classes butt that they can't even cough without losing something or else they give a class mega cookies saturated with pure win and dripping awesome frosting with little easy mode and I win button sprinkles all over the top (guards in RoK, SKs in TSO, or the major B.A. beast mode bosses that send even the most battle hardened veterans crying getting nerfed into these jokes of wet noodle slinging pansy bosses like pof varsoon just to name a couple of over buffs/nerfs), it's honestly a scenario where there needs to be some level of the community input being taken seriously and more than beta testing on live. We all know how aeralik balanced "fairly", just ask the rangers. {/Derailing rant}</p><p>_________________________________</p><p>Point being in an ideal Norrath there would be a nice happy middle ground where each class shines at something others stink at and stinks at something others shine at and there is equal content for everyone as well as developers and players openly communicating with thought out and informed converse and respecting each other's opinions. Thats not going to happen.</p><p>Players will never be satisfied no matter what happens because there will always be SOMETHING even if it's what they just were complaining about needing fixed and then want unfixed. Additionally SOE either takes it to one extreme or the other rarely visiting the options inbetween. As a result, players voices went from meaning absolutely jack to all of a sudden he who whines the hardest, loudest, and longest coupled with who has the strongest QQ foo shall get their wishes out of sheer greater post count and frequency of annoyance. It's not just one side thats the problem; it takes both sides being mature and respectful to have a peaceful, enjoyable, and productive coexistance.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>They are never going to balance fighters for soloability. Guardians CAN NOT do what other classes can solo. The specific example listed above may be pertinant or not. The simple fact is that every other fighter class can do more than Guardians can solo.</p><p>That being said, Guardians are NOT offered any benefit at higher/max levels to offset this fact. If you want a raid MT play another class other than Guardian. If you want a well balanced and fun class play something other than a Guardian. If you want to be given small advancements and have them nefred away over and over due to the other classes wanting to stay on top then play a Guardian and eat your pond scum cause that's all your going to get.</p>

[Odys]

<p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well, he is right guardians suck horribly compared to shadowknights while soloing. This is nothing new though. Soloing as an assassin is a pain, especially if there are multiple mobs. Soloing as a ranger is easy and fun. Easier to solo with a wizard than it is a warlock. Hell... easier to solo as a shadowknight than a paladin. Easier to solo as a zerker than a guard... always been that way. It's just the way it is, and I don't think 24 classes will ever be balanced in solo play.</p></blockquote><p>Saying wizards solo better than warlocks is funny.  Both suck solo wise.  A resisted root/stun/mez and they are in trouble. </p><p>I do not see any other class being able to survive what I witnessed.  That's my point.   A ranger/assassin/wizard/warlock/zerker or any non SK class would have died doing that. </p><p>Again my point is having multiple mobs on a character at the same time and doing so in quick order.</p></blockquote><p>My paladin could probably do it.  A crusader with high aas and mastercraft armor is quite too powerfull.</p><p>Some People  say that most classes could do it, i have high doubts. Even a  warden will be smacked due to mob hitting harder than his HPS. Brigand and Swash may do it (ending up in the very red), Berzeker may also be able to do that.</p><p>Inqui & Mystic will get owned due to interrupts and.</p><p>The problem is simply that crusader DPS is too high.</p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well, he is right guardians suck horribly compared to shadowknights while soloing. This is nothing new though. Soloing as an assassin is a pain, especially if there are multiple mobs. Soloing as a ranger is easy and fun. Easier to solo with a wizard than it is a warlock. Hell... easier to solo as a shadowknight than a paladin. Easier to solo as a zerker than a guard... always been that way. It's just the way it is, and I don't think 24 classes will ever be balanced in solo play.</p></blockquote><p>Saying wizards solo better than warlocks is funny.  Both suck solo wise.  A resisted root/stun/mez and they are in trouble. </p><p>I do not see any other class being able to survive what I witnessed.  That's my point.   A ranger/assassin/wizard/warlock/zerker or any non SK class would have died doing that. </p><p>Again my point is having multiple mobs on a character at the same time and doing so in quick order.</p></blockquote><p>My paladin could probably do it.  A crusader with high aas and mastercraft armor is quite too powerfull.</p><p>Some People  say that most classes could do it, i have high doubts. Even a  warden will be smacked due to mob hitting harder than his HPS. Brigand and Swash may do it (ending up in the very red), Berzeker may also be able to do that.</p><p>Inqui & Mystic will get owned due to interrupts and.</p><p>The problem is simply that crusader DPS is too high.</p></blockquote><p>A level 52 Berserker would have the exact same results as a level 52 Guardian.</p>

[Landiin]

<p>n/m</p>

[Owesta]

<p>NO tank should have massive damage output period, they are made for survival and taunting a mob thier direction.</p><p>We got 6 tank classes and the general core to them is the same, tanking. there is no major distinction between them all apart from dps outputs and threat.</p><p>I wouldnt mind at all if a guardian kept the same dps but has a butload more defences and taunts with those defences. think in the lines of blocking incomming attacks call the mob everything that offends them and dig in behind the shield to block everything thats incoming.</p><p>Crusaders can keep thier dps but something has to give survivablity and agro generate.</p><p>Brawlers need the dps and avoidance to keep tanking but like they are now less agro generate.</p><p>what im saying is that all classes must have thier pros and cons and not just one class has it all!</p><p>Oh and before i forget make guard myth spell immunity a clicky istead of the never proccing proc</p>

[Axterix]

<p>Just for fun, took my 30 guardian up against about 8 33-34 mobs.  Took them down no, problem.  Yeah, not +5, but also wearing level 22 armor, with exactly 65 AAs.  In 32 MC'd stuff, I'm pretty confident I could tackle 7-8 level 37 mobs.</p><p>I know another guardian who solos by pulling packs of mobs too.  He's currently 42, doing Lavastorm quests.  He pulls packs of mobs.  His BP is specifically choosen to aid in that, procs an AoE.  Very twinked, he can survive stuff my SK cannot.</p><p>Now, given the same gear, an SK does it better and faster.  More AoEs, more self healing.</p><p>But the situation described is quite easy to do with pretty much any plate fighter in good gear and 65+ AAs.  Battle Hardening is overpowered and trivializes solo content.</p><p>And an interesting little tidbit, you can be chronomaged and be 52.  Just requires chrono'ing to 50 and then leveling 2x.  Done it with my fury before, chrono'ing from 61 to 60, so that I get the xp bonus from the RAF mount.  And when I leveled to 62, my chronomaged level increased to 61.  Which was annoying, because I dinged on killing a level 50 named.  No loot.</p>

[Axterix]

<p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Point is that a similarly equipped/AA'd non-SK would die.  These mobs were at the least orange to him.  His armor should have been crap to these mobs.</p></blockquote><p>They'd be barely orange, if not yellow.  At 49, I know +5 is when it turns orange.  But they don't hit that hard, and that's wearing 42 armor.  +6 hits a lot harder than +5.  +5 is a joke.</p>

[thog_zork]

<p>Our sk solos Shard of Hate (t8 raidzone) upto maestro at 90/250</p>

[Yimway]

<p>Solo content imbalance?  What difference does it make, we can all solo effectively.</p><p>And FWIW, my guard can easily kill a dozen solo mobs without dipping health as well.  It's not an important metric to look at cause solo mobs just fall down and die.</p><p>Now, I've watched a zerker and sk take on 30+ if not 50+ heroic mobs at a time soloing in the hole. </p><p>But this is an issue regaurding how much dps and survivability of the two classes scale up with more mobs around them.  I believe their dps should scale as effectively as it does for aoe encounters, what I don't agree with is just how far the survivability scales as well.</p><p>I'm not sure what I would suggest in balancing this.  For starters there should be a limit to reaver taps / min.  Adrenaline with a 50% base damage reduction is honestly too high and too persistent.  And stonewill proc chances are just insane on aoe fights.  Thats just starters for what is wrong, I'm sure more examination would be required to actually bring survivability back into reasonable bounds.</p><p>Should they bring it back down?  I mean players clearly like being more and more OP.  At this point if I can't pull 2-3 rooms worth of mobs, I'm not having fun anymore, right?</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p>There are a few inbalances with the fighter archetype the absolute least important being soloability.</p><p>Who actually cares or for that matter has trouble with solo content these days?</p><p>What is really broken and way out of balance is fighter balance at the heroic->non top-end raiding.</p><p>Fighters balance:</p><p>-Solo.....nobody cares.</p><p>-Top-end raiding.... pretty well balanced if you consider there being no difference whatsoever in who is MT as being balanced.</p><p>-Everywhere else......broken.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>While I agree that soloing isn't a major part of the game for most. I would like to keep the fact that the original concept of the Guardian was that we gave up our ability to solo easily, gave up DPS, gave up utility and gave up ease of play in order to be the best defensive tank available. We list the 'best defensive tank' a good while ago and didn't get a [Removed for Content] thing to replace any of the other limitations of the class.</p><p>This is just one more minor thing to be considered when discussing balance. Face it, leveling a Guardian outside of RAF and double experiance weekends is WAY more time consuming and frustrating that just about any other fighter. Just like tanking, just because we can solo doesn't mean we are even in the ballpark of how the other fighetrs solo.</p><p>I hate to keep being negative. I really enjoy my Guardian. I do very well with him but I fully understand that it due to the people I normally group with and the ability to fill in the last 1-2 group openings with people that fit his limitations. All of my posting here is based on me knowing how the game works and knowing full well, through personal experiance, how other classes can wipe my Guardian all over the place with less skill and less gear.</p><p>I just want a fair chance to have equal enjoyment out of the game. I have no problem working hard but I do not want my hard work to be trumped by some scrub who picked an OP class to play.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>While I agree that soloing isn't a major part of the game for most. I would like to keep the fact that the original concept of the Guardian was that we gave up our ability to solo easily, gave up DPS, gave up utility and gave up ease of play in order to be the best defensive tank available.</p></blockquote><p>I don't think this is true.</p><p>We've always had DW available to us.  Even back in the orriginal release, we had no trouble soloing, yes a little slower than zerker, and not  as 'safe' as the paladin, but it wasn't difficult.</p><p>I think the only folks that had trouble soloing the guard were approaching solo content as if it required survivability.</p><p>But yes, the class sacrificed dps, and utility, and aggro for survivability, but I think soloing, it was still easy if you approached it with the right stance.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>Yes. I have always been able to solo. I have never been able to solo as well as any other fighter. Maybe instead of saying solo easily it should have been solo effectively.</p><p>The point is still the same and you stated it also.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>Just accept the fact that aside from overpopulation, there is no reason to play any fighter besides a shadowknight. If you are playing something else, you will always be inferior and there is no use crying on the forums about it. Either play a shadowknight, or be content with not being the best tank for just about everything.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just accept the fact that aside from overpopulation, there is no reason to play any fighter besides a shadowknight. If you are playing something else, you will always be inferior and there is no use crying on the forums about it. Either play a shadowknight, or be content with not being the best tank for just about everything.</p></blockquote><p>When are you going to wake up and realize that this isn't TSO?  The issue isn't SKs...the issue is every other fighter compared to Guards.  The fact is Zerkers and Paladins in plate are just as beast as SKs....I even rolled up a Zerker because of how great they are and they literally take no heat for being OP'd since KoS.  Paladins are insanely good...we have a new Paladin on the raid and he can literally stay second on the agro list with 1/3 of the DPS as me.  And the sneaky Brawlers are able to jack up their survivability higher than any other tank (they take a dive in DPS to do it) and than can swap into a DPS mode and parse higher than the other fighters.</p><p>I will give and say there isn't a ton of reason right now to play a Guard...which is why there are threads about the issue and how to solve the problems...other than that you would have to be extremely narrow minded to think that the other tanks aren't all thriving.</p>

[Landiin]

Bruener man, all you say Still doesn't negate the fact that SK are the most used fighter class in top end guilds. Still doesn't negate the fact that SK is the BEST over all tank and has zero drawbacks. TSO or not SK are still the BEST goto tank there is. So please quit trying to through focus on TSO when nothing has changed really.

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Bruener man, all you say Still doesn't negate the fact that SK are the most used fighter class in top end guilds. Still doesn't negate the fact that SK is the BEST over all tank and has zero drawbacks. TSO or not SK are still the BEST goto tank there is. So please quit trying to through focus on TSO when nothing has changed really.</blockquote><p>And I am telling you that is a line of BS and the numbers now are only reflective of the huge boost/revamp that SKs rec'd for TSO.  Right now I know a lot of people rolling up Zerkers and Paladins for the same exact reason people rolled up a SK before.  Obviously people rolled SKs because of the very nice changes they got for TSO and it was the thing to do since prior to that almost nobody made them.  I am sorry you can't understand how those swelling of numbers from TSO are completely reflective of what numbers are showing today.</p><p>People are being ignorant if they do not recognize that Bezerkers and Paladins have the same capabilities and are just as much of a "go-to" tank as SKs.  Brawlers I will agree take a little more time to develop into great tanks, more of at the high end where their survivability is the best in game if geared properly.</p><p>But really instead of me constantly trying to teach you how things actual operate in todays game why don't you please explain to me how SKs are the go-to tank over Zerkers and Paladins especially.  Than whatever petty little argument you think you can brin gup be prepared for facts that completely negate what you say because I guarantee I know what you are going to say and the numbers people actually see today will tell a completely different story.  Lets just lay it out ahead of time....</p><p>Survivability.  Paladins heal better than SKs by a lot and take less damage.  With the changes to their AA in SF they have an ability that blocks all inc damage for 8 sec that is on a very fast recast.  Zerkers have Adrenaline that allows them to take 50% less damage for almost half the time and with SF AA they heal 4% of max health everytime they are damaged for 30 sec that is on a decent recast...also have 2 death saves.  SKs take more damage than both these tanks and heal for less...have BL.</p><p>DPS. Spec'd and geared the same Paladin = SK in DPS.  Zerkers do slightly less on ST but can definitely push the same numbers on AE fights with 100% AE auto and just wait till the good ones get ahold of nice 2h weapons.</p><p>Utility.  Paladins have the ability to cure/heal/rez lower the agro of top DPS'er by 41% raid-wide raise base heal of raid and mit?!?  Also Heretics Destruction raises potency and crit bonus of entire raid by 15% for 10 sec on I believe a 3 min base recast.  Zerkers +DPS/haste to group, +DPS mod to raid temp buffs to raise mit of group.  SKs +5% base spell damage, 10% cast/recast to group, and Death March.</p><p>I would go over Brawlers too but that will probably just start some flaming from people that refuse to recognize Brawler capabilities.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>DPS. Spec'd and geared the same Paladin = SK in DPS. </p></blockquote><p>I do not believe this to be true, and I can not point to one example that I know it to be true.</p><p>I can in fact point to full mastered paladins that betrayed, picked up experts and upped their dps.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>Rathgar: (02:05) | 82104946 | 656840 | [Dakkota-Fiery Blast-558095]Gaig | 76332 (assassin) G1Dakk | 71269 (wizard) G4Thri | 52014 (coercer) G1Snik | 50667 (brigand) G4Solj | 48628 (conjurer) G3Cocy | 44395 (swash) G2Wret | 41257 (swash) G3Jera | 34613 (sk) G4Jeal | 32484 (paladin) G1Apha | 31603 (coercer) G2Ultr | 31065 (illusionist) G4Show | 27938 (illusionist) G3Ilya | 26117 (dirge) G1Guid | 23298 (troub) G3Bold | 22743 (troub) G4Rast | 15453 (dirge) G2Drys | 15234 (zerk) G2Envi | 2630 (fury) G4Rixa | 2590 (temp) G1Denu | 2541 (defiler) G1Maya | 1942 (defiler) G2Stor | 987 (warden) G3Seva | 632 (temp) G2Seri | 407 (defiler) G3</p><p>From another thread....Jeal is the MT as well taking more deaths I am sure.  I know a lot of people are in denial about Paladins but spec'd and geared for it like SKs they do just as good DPS and I can throw you parse after parse when our old Paladin is in the raid to show you it if you want.  Of course you can get the same data by simply going over to flames and looking at the DPS comparisons.  Really the difference in a parse will come from whose bard is better with VC.</p><p>Most of the issue with Paladins not parsing well is that a lot of people don't know how to, or more importantly don't spec to.  Well its not like it was needed because I know it was suprising to watch a new Paladin alt doing 1/3 of the DPS as me (somebody very new to class and behind on gear and masters) was actually ripping off of me in the raid not including HG.</p><p>Anyhow start believing because it is definitely true.</p>

[Yimway]

<p>Jael != 99.9% of paladins</p><p>Moreso, those parses do not assign what components of the dps are self generated vs cummulation of buffs and group makeup.</p><p>In short, that data is meaningless to your arguement.</p><p>Look, I'm not saying Paladins can't parse respectfully.  I'll say most don't understrand it, but the few that do can parse respectfully.  However they do not equal the parse of an SK in the same gear.  They get up there, sure, but the SK beats them out in my experience observing relatively equally geared and skilled players.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Jael != 99.9% of paladins</p><p>Moreso, those parses do not assign what components of the dps are self generated vs cummulation of buffs and group makeup.</p><p>In short, that data is meaningless to your arguement.</p><p>Look, I'm not saying Paladins can't parse respectfully.  I'll say most don't understrand it, but the few that do can parse respectfully.  However they do not equal the parse of an SK in the same gear.  They get up there, sure, but the SK beats them out in my experience observing relatively equally geared and skilled players.</p></blockquote><p>And I guess we can continue to go back and forth on this all you want.  I realize Jeal is good....I was guilded with him for quite a while and parse-wise even in TSO it all depended on who got the better group to see who would parse better.  And you can ask him if you want, I am probably the highest parsing SK he has played with.  The difference is he understands the class and the potential..and he did even back in TSO.  The other Paladin we have in guild (not the new alt) is the same exact way.  Jeal is != to 99.9% of the Paladins because 99.9% of other Paladins don't know how to play the class like he does....its not like it is any different for SKs either....I have run so many SKs out of guilds simply because with the same gear and same masters I can double their DPS easy.  Its not like it is rocket science...you push buttons in the order of whatever does the most damage first, leave a space for auto attack.</p><p>Other than that what is the difference if the DPS is self generated versus a cummulation of buffs from others.  You do realize that the reason fighters parse well really is because the DPS is a cummulation of buffs from others....a lot of the time in proper groups the fighter becomes the focal point of the majority of buffs.  I mean its not like that is a new thing....its what I have been saying a long time...the fact that if DPS was actually credited to the class that caused it we would see Bards topping the parse by a long shot with other utility/healers behind them.</p><p>Well I guess you can keep living in denial if you want to.  The fact is Paladins = SKs in DPS.  And once I twink out my Zerker with gear I will probably prove Zerkers do too, because right now at the low level with 100% AE auto they whoop what my SK went thru.</p>

[Landiin]

I know I am ignorant but how are you getting 100% AE AA at low levels on your zerker?

[Aull]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I know I am ignorant but how are you getting 100% AE AA at low levels on your zerker?</blockquote><p>I agree. Open wounds is the only ability that a lvl 50+ zerker has for 100% aoe auto attack. It is a temp buff with a long recast.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I know I am ignorant but how are you getting 100% AE AA at low levels on your zerker?</blockquote><p>Yes Open Wounds is an ability you pick up in the 50's.  It will give you 100% AE auto attack for a short duration (20 sec recalling from memory) and is on a 3 min base recast.  As for being low level I should have explained that when I say low level that is really anything before level 80 in my mind.  So yes as a Zerker starting when I got Open wounds I could grab a huge mass of group mobs and easily burn them down with open wounds owning them.  I have been doing this leveling my Zerker up using legendary player crafted gear and weapons (I prefer those 5.0 delay weps).</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I know I am ignorant but how are you getting 100% AE AA at low levels on your zerker?</blockquote><p>Yes Open Wounds is an ability you pick up in the 50's.  It will give you 100% AE auto attack for a short duration (20 sec recalling from memory) and is on a 3 min base recast.  As for being low level I should have explained that when I say low level that is really anything before level 80 in my mind.  So yes as a Zerker starting when I got Open wounds I could grab a huge mass of group mobs and easily burn them down with open wounds owning them.  I have been doing this leveling my Zerker up using legendary player crafted gear and weapons (I prefer those 5.0 delay weps).</p></blockquote><p>Ok I C now, the way I read it was 100% AE AA all the time.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I know I am ignorant but how are you getting 100% AE AA at low levels on your zerker?</blockquote><p>Yes Open Wounds is an ability you pick up in the 50's.  It will give you 100% AE auto attack for a short duration (20 sec recalling from memory) and is on a 3 min base recast.  As for being low level I should have explained that when I say low level that is really anything before level 80 in my mind.  So yes as a Zerker starting when I got Open wounds I could grab a huge mass of group mobs and easily burn them down with open wounds owning them.  I have been doing this leveling my Zerker up using legendary player crafted gear and weapons (I prefer those 5.0 delay weps).</p></blockquote><p>Ok I C now, the way I read it was 100% AE AA all the time.</p></blockquote><p>Nope, not until 80.</p>

[LardLord]

<p>It is kinda funny how SKs take all the heat for OPness, while Paladins are probably even more OP.  With Amends, Sigil, and Holy Ground (pre-SF), Paladins have been able to "get by," even in raiding, without even approaching the potential of the class.  Naturally, that results in a lot of Paladins who just don't play the class very well, so I guess the fact that they're underestimated as a class is not surprising.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>Both crusaders need to be nerfed. And shadowknight > zerker in just about every way.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Both crusaders need to be nerfed. And shadowknight > zerker in just about every way.</p></blockquote><p>Keep saying it and maybe it will come true.</p><p>Its the reason I specifically am rolling up a Zerker, because the class is just as good in every aspect....and yet they take no heat at all.  Odds are next xpac with even more increases to "Warriors" instead of just Guards Zerkers are going to be insane and ahead of the pack instead of just even.</p><p>Gonna be fun testing out the Zerker on some raids DW'ing or using a massive 2h weapon and not taking any still taking less damage while doing it.  Its not like it has ever been "hard" on Zerkers.....the class from KoS thru RoK has had the best AAs and teh best temp abilities for mitigating inc damage.  RoK only saw a lot of people betraying over because the entire xpac was ST and Guard Mythical made them the most defensive tank by miles with equal DPS.  TSO has probably been the worst x-pac for Zerkers and it wasn't even bad for them at all.  People find it so amazing that tanks parse well now but oh the days of KoS watching a good Zerk top the parse consistently.</p>

[LardLord]

<p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It is kinda funny how SKs take all the heat for OPness, while Paladins are probably even more OP.  With Amends, Sigil, and Holy Ground (pre-SF), Paladins have been able to "get by," even in raiding, without even approaching the potential of the class.  Naturally, that results in a lot of Paladins who just don't play the class very well, so I guess the fact that they're underestimated as a class is not surprising.</p></blockquote><p>Just taking this further, at the very start of TSO, pretty much the only way a Shadowknight was raiding was if he was more skilled than the Guardians/Berserkers/Paladins available to his guild.  Sure, you have a ton of mediocre and sub-par SKs raiding now, but back then it was a strong class played by strong players (as far as raiding goes), so that probably snowballed to make them seem even more powerful than they were/are (not to say that I think they weren't/aren't OP).</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its the reason I specifically am rolling up a Zerker, because the class is just as good in every aspect....and yet they take no heat at all.  Odds are next xpac with even more increases to "Warriors" instead of just Guards Zerkers are going to be insane and ahead of the pack instead of just even.</p></blockquote><p>As long as you don't run your zerker up against epic mobs, you're going to be very happy with it and find it as good as your sk.</p><p>It's only dealing with the lack of block chance vs epics that the zerker suffers at all (and its not that much), and thats only when adrenaline and few other tools are unavailable.  They're close to as fun and easy as a crusader, and nearly as powerful for sure.</p><p>But I said as much in beta and was generally ignored about it.</p><p>I seem to remember a few others screaming that the increased crit modifier on warrior would make them the kings of tank parsing, but that didn't seem to really hold true...</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Rathgar: (02:05) | 82104946 | 656840 | [Dakkota-Fiery Blast-558095]Gaig | 76332 (assassin) G1Dakk | 71269 (wizard) G4Thri | 52014 (coercer) G1Snik | 50667 (brigand) G4Solj | 48628 (conjurer) G3Cocy | 44395 (swash) G2Wret | 41257 (swash) G3Jera | 34613 (sk) G4Jeal | 32484 (paladin) G1Apha | 31603 (coercer) G2Ultr | 31065 (illusionist) G4Show | 27938 (illusionist) G3Ilya | 26117 (dirge) G1Guid | 23298 (troub) G3Bold | 22743 (troub) G4Rast | 15453 (dirge) G2Drys | 15234 (zerk) G2Envi | 2630 (fury) G4Rixa | 2590 (temp) G1Denu | 2541 (defiler) G1Maya | 1942 (defiler) G2Stor | 987 (warden) G3Seva | 632 (temp) G2Seri | 407 (defiler) G3</p><p>From another thread....Jeal is the MT as well taking more deaths I am sure.  I know a lot of people are in denial about Paladins but spec'd and geared for it like SKs they do just as good DPS and I can throw you parse after parse when our old Paladin is in the raid to show you it if you want.  Of course you can get the same data by simply going over to flames and looking at the DPS comparisons.  Really the difference in a parse will come from whose bard is better with VC.</p><p>Most of the issue with Paladins not parsing well is that a lot of people don't know how to, or more importantly don't spec to.  Well its not like it was needed because I know it was suprising to watch a new Paladin alt doing 1/3 of the DPS as me (somebody very new to class and behind on gear and masters) was actually ripping off of me in the raid not including HG.</p><p>Anyhow start believing because it is definitely true.</p></blockquote><p>Whats broken is that fighters are doing that kinda of DPS and sacrificing little if anything to do so.........they should be down with the healers IMO.</p>

[Aull]

<p>I love my zerker but I do not like the fact that he now has heals and even a ward lol. For me that is leaching abilities that only the crusaders should have.</p><p>I don't think it is right that it was done but it has been and I must deal with it.</p><p>I will say that my zerkers soloing abilty has increased far above what it once was but again soloing is really moot.</p><p>Personally I think that the zerker class at the end game with 250 aa's is playing more like my sk.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Rathgar: (02:05) | 82104946 | 656840 | [Dakkota-Fiery Blast-558095]Gaig | 76332 (assassin) G1Dakk | 71269 (wizard) G4Thri | 52014 (coercer) G1Snik | 50667 (brigand) G4Solj | 48628 (conjurer) G3Cocy | 44395 (swash) G2Wret | 41257 (swash) G3Jera | 34613 (sk) G4Jeal | 32484 (paladin) G1Apha | 31603 (coercer) G2Ultr | 31065 (illusionist) G4Show | 27938 (illusionist) G3Ilya | 26117 (dirge) G1Guid | 23298 (troub) G3Bold | 22743 (troub) G4Rast | 15453 (dirge) G2Drys | 15234 (zerk) G2Envi | 2630 (fury) G4Rixa | 2590 (temp) G1Denu | 2541 (defiler) G1Maya | 1942 (defiler) G2Stor | 987 (warden) G3Seva | 632 (temp) G2Seri | 407 (defiler) G3</p><p>From another thread....Jeal is the MT as well taking more deaths I am sure.  I know a lot of people are in denial about Paladins but spec'd and geared for it like SKs they do just as good DPS and I can throw you parse after parse when our old Paladin is in the raid to show you it if you want.  Of course you can get the same data by simply going over to flames and looking at the DPS comparisons.  Really the difference in a parse will come from whose bard is better with VC.</p><p>Most of the issue with Paladins not parsing well is that a lot of people don't know how to, or more importantly don't spec to.  Well its not like it was needed because I know it was suprising to watch a new Paladin alt doing 1/3 of the DPS as me (somebody very new to class and behind on gear and masters) was actually ripping off of me in the raid not including HG.</p><p>Anyhow start believing because it is definitely true.</p></blockquote><p>Whats broken is that fighters are doing that kinda of DPS and sacrificing little if anything to do so.........they should be down with the healers IMO.</p></blockquote><p>You think half the DPS of T1 DPS'ers is a lot?  Look at the classes around them...you see utility classes.  Classes that are supposed to be low parsers.  Above them by 20% are T2 rogues.  So those fighters are going all offensive gear and stance and it is wrong for them to be pushing low T2 DPS?</p><p>The real problem is that people are still refusing to recognize that Fighters should be doing decent DPS all the time.  Its what SOE is trying to give them to encourage more fighters in a raid instead of only having 2 and than gimping the raid with alt fighters when a scripted fight calls for more every now and than.</p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You think half the DPS of T1 DPS'ers is a lot?  Look at the classes around them...you see utility classes.  Classes that are supposed to be low parsers.  Above them by 20% are T2 rogues.  So those fighters are going all offensive gear and stance and it is wrong for them to be pushing low T2 DPS?</p><p><span style="color: #00ff00; font-size: small;"><strong>The real problem is that people are still refusing to recognize that Fighters should be doing decent DPS all the time.  Its what SOE is trying to give them to encourage more fighters in a raid instead of only having 2 and than gimping the raid with alt fighters when a scripted fight calls for more every now and than</strong></span>.</p></blockquote><p>Edited to save space.</p><p>I do remember this being last years big complaint. Only having two maybe three fighters per raid warriors & crusaders mostly filling those spots. Brawlers were hit and miss.</p><p>I do agree with ya though. I have read that some want it to where fighters could hold aggro without being the main target for most of the dps buffs. In doing so would allow those dps buffs to go to scouts/mages ect who would see more benefit to dps than what a fighter would.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Our sk solos Shard of Hate (t8 raidzone) upto maestro at 90/250</p></blockquote><p>Stop lying, it is impossible for any class to solo shard of hate up to maestro even teh all mighty SK unless SK's got an immune to charm somehow that Ive never heard about.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Both crusaders need to be nerfed. And shadowknight > zerker in just about every way.</p></blockquote><p>Keep saying it and maybe it will come true.</p><p>Its the reason I specifically am rolling up a Zerker, because the class is just as good in every aspect....and yet they take no heat at all.  Odds are next xpac with even more increases to "Warriors" instead of just Guards Zerkers are going to be insane and ahead of the pack instead of just even.</p><p>Gonna be fun testing out the Zerker on some raids DW'ing or using a massive 2h weapon and not taking any still taking less damage while doing it.  Its not like it has ever been "hard" on Zerkers.....the class from KoS thru RoK has had the best AAs and teh best temp abilities for mitigating inc damage.  RoK only saw a lot of people betraying over because the entire xpac was ST and Guard Mythical made them the most defensive tank by miles with equal DPS.  TSO has probably been the worst x-pac for Zerkers and it wasn't even bad for them at all.  People find it so amazing that tanks parse well now but oh the days of KoS watching a good Zerk top the parse consistently.</p></blockquote><p>Enjoy your zerker, I have one too. The fact remains that a shadowknight will solo things a zerker can't, and kill a zerker in PvP 1v1. Not because of skill or gear (assuming equal blah blah disclaimer here). Simply because of class selection.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Our sk solos Shard of Hate (t8 raidzone) upto maestro at 90/250</p></blockquote><p>Stop lying, it is impossible for any class to solo shard of hate up to maestro even teh all mighty SK unless SK's got an immune to charm somehow that Ive never heard about.</p></blockquote><p>Technically if you plow trash up to Maestro... you have solo'd up to Maestro. And I've never noticed any charms up to and including Maestro.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The real problem is that people are still refusing to recognize that Fighters should be doing decent DPS all the time.  Its what SOE is trying to give them to encourage more fighters in a raid instead of only having 2 and than gimping the raid with alt fighters when a scripted fight calls for more every now and than.</p></blockquote><p>SOE should be making it so fighters are playing a role in tanking and boosting raid survivability... there are plenty of other classes that can contribute DPS. A bard/enchanter's main role is buffing. A priest's main role is healing. A fighter's main role should be tanking and protecting raid members. They should be doing that first, and worrying about doing T3 dps later. At least heavy tanks. Maybe some fighters like brawlers and shadowknights can do T2 DPS, but they should have the survivability to reflect that. And honestly, if one fighter is going to be pwn in one area, he should be [Removed for Content] in another area. No more of this beastly God of solo/pvp/heroic/OT crap. Best at one thing, worst at another. SOE is being lazy because increasing DPS for class desirability is the easy/vanilla way out, and ultimately a bad solution.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>thog_zork wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Our sk solos Shard of Hate (t8 raidzone) upto maestro at 90/250</p></blockquote><p>Stop lying, it is impossible for any class to solo shard of hate up to maestro even teh all mighty SK unless SK's got an immune to charm somehow that Ive never heard about.</p></blockquote><p>Technically if you plow trash up to Maestro... you have solo'd up to Maestro. And I've never noticed any charms up to and including Maestro.</p></blockquote><p>Masta Tasa charms or w/e his name is and if you do that solo it just resets the encounter.</p>

[LardLord]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Masta Tasa charms or w/e his name is and if you do that solo it just resets the encounter.</p></blockquote><p>I think people have a little exploit to get around that.</p><p><strong>EDIT:</strong> Removed details in case they'd get me in trouble, heh...hope just the above won't!</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Masta Tasa charms or w/e his name is and if you do that solo it just resets the encounter.</p></blockquote><p>It is resistable.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Rathgar: (02:05) | 82104946 | 656840 | [Dakkota-Fiery Blast-558095]Gaig | 76332 (assassin) G1Dakk | 71269 (wizard) G4Thri | 52014 (coercer) G1Snik | 50667 (brigand) G4Solj | 48628 (conjurer) G3Cocy | 44395 (swash) G2Wret | 41257 (swash) G3Jera | 34613 (sk) G4Jeal | 32484 (paladin) G1Apha | 31603 (coercer) G2Ultr | 31065 (illusionist) G4Show | 27938 (illusionist) G3Ilya | 26117 (dirge) G1Guid | 23298 (troub) G3Bold | 22743 (troub) G4Rast | 15453 (dirge) G2Drys | 15234 (zerk) G2Envi | 2630 (fury) G4Rixa | 2590 (temp) G1Denu | 2541 (defiler) G1Maya | 1942 (defiler) G2Stor | 987 (warden) G3Seva | 632 (temp) G2Seri | 407 (defiler) G3</p><p>From another thread....Jeal is the MT as well taking more deaths I am sure.  I know a lot of people are in denial about Paladins but spec'd and geared for it like SKs they do just as good DPS and I can throw you parse after parse when our old Paladin is in the raid to show you it if you want.  Of course you can get the same data by simply going over to flames and looking at the DPS comparisons.  Really the difference in a parse will come from whose bard is better with VC.</p><p>Most of the issue with Paladins not parsing well is that a lot of people don't know how to, or more importantly don't spec to.  Well its not like it was needed because I know it was suprising to watch a new Paladin alt doing 1/3 of the DPS as me (somebody very new to class and behind on gear and masters) was actually ripping off of me in the raid not including HG.</p><p>Anyhow start believing because it is definitely true.</p></blockquote><p>Whats broken is that fighters are doing that kinda of DPS and sacrificing little if anything to do so.........they should be down with the healers IMO.</p></blockquote><p>You think half the DPS of T1 DPS'ers is a lot?  Look at the classes around them...you see utility classes.  Classes that are supposed to be low parsers.  Above them by 20% are T2 rogues.  So those fighters are going all offensive gear and stance and it is wrong for them to be pushing low T2 DPS?</p><p>The real problem is that people are still refusing to recognize that Fighters should be doing decent DPS all the time.  Its what SOE is trying to give them to encourage more fighters in a raid instead of only having 2 and than gimping the raid with alt fighters when a scripted fight calls for more every now and than.</p></blockquote><p>Yes it is alot considering the surviveability of the class.  Even in your so called all offensive gear and O stance fighters still have much more survivability that those bards.   If SoE made it so fighters could not use any of their "blocks", DA, ToS, etc or even equp a shield and cut their mit in half  when being "DPS" then maybe.</p><p>If you got fighters doing T2+ DPS then they should have the surviveability of a T2 DPS class.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Masta Tasa charms or w/e his name is and if you do that solo it just resets the encounter.</p></blockquote><p>It is resistable.</p></blockquote><p>You two have obviously tried to solo Shard of Hate. </p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Rathgar: (02:05) | 82104946 | 656840 | [Dakkota-Fiery Blast-558095]Gaig | 76332 (assassin) G1Dakk | 71269 (wizard) G4Thri | 52014 (coercer) G1Snik | 50667 (brigand) G4Solj | 48628 (conjurer) G3Cocy | 44395 (swash) G2Wret | 41257 (swash) G3Jera | 34613 (sk) G4Jeal | 32484 (paladin) G1Apha | 31603 (coercer) G2Ultr | 31065 (illusionist) G4Show | 27938 (illusionist) G3Ilya | 26117 (dirge) G1Guid | 23298 (troub) G3Bold | 22743 (troub) G4Rast | 15453 (dirge) G2Drys | 15234 (zerk) G2Envi | 2630 (fury) G4Rixa | 2590 (temp) G1Denu | 2541 (defiler) G1Maya | 1942 (defiler) G2Stor | 987 (warden) G3Seva | 632 (temp) G2Seri | 407 (defiler) G3</p><p>From another thread....Jeal is the MT as well taking more deaths I am sure.  I know a lot of people are in denial about Paladins but spec'd and geared for it like SKs they do just as good DPS and I can throw you parse after parse when our old Paladin is in the raid to show you it if you want.  Of course you can get the same data by simply going over to flames and looking at the DPS comparisons.  Really the difference in a parse will come from whose bard is better with VC.</p><p>Most of the issue with Paladins not parsing well is that a lot of people don't know how to, or more importantly don't spec to.  Well its not like it was needed because I know it was suprising to watch a new Paladin alt doing 1/3 of the DPS as me (somebody very new to class and behind on gear and masters) was actually ripping off of me in the raid not including HG.</p><p>Anyhow start believing because it is definitely true.</p></blockquote><p>Whats broken is that fighters are doing that kinda of DPS and sacrificing little if anything to do so.........they should be down with the healers IMO.</p></blockquote><p>You think half the DPS of T1 DPS'ers is a lot?  Look at the classes around them...you see utility classes.  Classes that are supposed to be low parsers.  Above them by 20% are T2 rogues.  So those fighters are going all offensive gear and stance and it is wrong for them to be pushing low T2 DPS?</p><p>The real problem is that people are still refusing to recognize that Fighters should be doing decent DPS all the time.  Its what SOE is trying to give them to encourage more fighters in a raid instead of only having 2 and than gimping the raid with alt fighters when a scripted fight calls for more every now and than.</p></blockquote><p>Yes it is alot considering the surviveability of the class.  Even in your so called all offensive gear and O stance fighters still have much more survivability that those bards.   If SoE made it so fighters could not use any of their "blocks", DA, ToS, etc or even equp a shield and cut their mit in half  when being "DPS" then maybe.</p><p>If you got fighters doing T2+ DPS then they should have the surviveability of a T2 DPS class.</p></blockquote><p>Yes and those bards bring a crap ton more raid DPS than those fighters thru buffs and temp buffs.  VC alone is probably the number 1 DPS item on parses now and it is a temp buff from bards.  Now factor in all the other buffs they give that raise the DPS AND survivability of others in a raid and it really wouldn't matter if the bard was bringing 0 DPS, you would bring them just for the massive amount of raid DPS they bring.  Do me a favor and go thru a parse sometime on a raid and give the DPS credit to the class that actually causes it.  You will probably see Bards at the very top by a long shot in what they bring for DPS followed by Chanters and Healers!?!.</p><p>Rogues are another great example of T2 DPS.  They do almost T1 DPS and yet thru debuffs they increase the DPS of raids by a very large amount.  You could cut Rogue DPS down to Bard type DPS and you would still bring Rogues because they increase everybody elses DPS by a huge chunk.  Not only that but they debuff the outgoing damage of the mob and they can stagger AEs longer to allow everybody to DPS much more with less deaths.</p><p>The fact is Fighters should all do T2 DPS all the time WITH a shield because that is the only reason you will consider bringing more than 2.  It gives them the utility of being able to DPS and take more damage while doing it.  They don't bring a lot of anything else.  EQ2 is a completely DPS-centric game...raids don't want to [Removed for Content] their DPS to bring more than 2 fighters.  SOE has recognized this and the biggest mistake they would make is forcing [Removed for Content] DPS on Fighters to do their job.  Bards don't [Removed for Content] their DPS to bring more raid DPS, they actually have to maximize it.  Same with Chanters.  Same with Rogues.  Its really a simple concept and it is by this way alone that SOE is making the Fighter class much more appealing to play in all situations and much more beneficial to raids.  The survivability angle won't work because Healers are so fricken OP'd that bringing one extra Healer will always negate any amount of extra fighters you try and bring for survivability.</p><p>What I find completely ironic is that you complain about the classes that aremore enjoyable to play (Crusaders, Zerkers) and the reason they are is probably because of this very concept.  But instead of making the classes all as enjoyable you would rather [Removed for Content] us all down to be less enjoyable and really less useful.  That makes no sense to me.  Anybody that complains about Crusaders and Zerkers should be pushing for similar changes to their classes for the very reason why so many people are choosing to play those classes.</p>

[thog_zork]

<p>ok so it is balanced that an sk can do 3 (!) t8 x4 encounter solo in soh without much of a problems and one with a little bit of luck...</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Rathgar: (02:05) | 82104946 | 656840 | [Dakkota-Fiery Blast-558095]Gaig | 76332 (assassin) G1Dakk | 71269 (wizard) G4Thri | 52014 (coercer) G1Snik | 50667 (brigand) G4Solj | 48628 (conjurer) G3Cocy | 44395 (swash) G2Wret | 41257 (swash) G3Jera | 34613 (sk) G4Jeal | 32484 (paladin) G1Apha | 31603 (coercer) G2Ultr | 31065 (illusionist) G4Show | 27938 (illusionist) G3Ilya | 26117 (dirge) G1Guid | 23298 (troub) G3Bold | 22743 (troub) G4Rast | 15453 (dirge) G2Drys | 15234 (zerk) G2Envi | 2630 (fury) G4Rixa | 2590 (temp) G1Denu | 2541 (defiler) G1Maya | 1942 (defiler) G2Stor | 987 (warden) G3Seva | 632 (temp) G2Seri | 407 (defiler) G3</p><p>From another thread....Jeal is the MT as well taking more deaths I am sure.  I know a lot of people are in denial about Paladins but spec'd and geared for it like SKs they do just as good DPS and I can throw you parse after parse when our old Paladin is in the raid to show you it if you want.  Of course you can get the same data by simply going over to flames and looking at the DPS comparisons.  Really the difference in a parse will come from whose bard is better with VC.</p><p>Most of the issue with Paladins not parsing well is that a lot of people don't know how to, or more importantly don't spec to.  Well its not like it was needed because I know it was suprising to watch a new Paladin alt doing 1/3 of the DPS as me (somebody very new to class and behind on gear and masters) was actually ripping off of me in the raid not including HG.</p><p>Anyhow start believing because it is definitely true.</p></blockquote><p>Whats broken is that fighters are doing that kinda of DPS and sacrificing little if anything to do so.........they should be down with the healers IMO.</p></blockquote><p>You think half the DPS of T1 DPS'ers is a lot?  Look at the classes around them...you see utility classes.  Classes that are supposed to be low parsers.  Above them by 20% are T2 rogues.  So those fighters are going all offensive gear and stance and it is wrong for them to be pushing low T2 DPS?</p><p>The real problem is that people are still refusing to recognize that Fighters should be doing decent DPS all the time.  Its what SOE is trying to give them to encourage more fighters in a raid instead of only having 2 and than gimping the raid with alt fighters when a scripted fight calls for more every now and than.</p></blockquote><p>Yes it is alot considering the surviveability of the class.  Even in your so called all offensive gear and O stance fighters still have much more survivability that those bards.   If SoE made it so fighters could not use any of their "blocks", DA, ToS, etc or even equp a shield and cut their mit in half  when being "DPS" then maybe.</p><p>If you got fighters doing T2+ DPS then they should have the surviveability of a T2 DPS class.</p></blockquote><p>Yes and those bards bring a crap ton more raid DPS than those fighters thru buffs and temp buffs.  VC alone is probably the number 1 DPS item on parses now and it is a temp buff from bards.  Now factor in all the other buffs they give that raise the DPS AND survivability of others in a raid and it really wouldn't matter if the bard was bringing 0 DPS, you would bring them just for the massive amount of raid DPS they bring.  Do me a favor and go thru a parse sometime on a raid and give the DPS credit to the class that actually causes it.  You will probably see Bards at the very top by a long shot in what they bring for DPS followed by Chanters and Healers!?!.</p><p>Rogues are another great example of T2 DPS.  They do almost T1 DPS and yet thru debuffs they increase the DPS of raids by a very large amount.  You could cut Rogue DPS down to Bard type DPS and you would still bring Rogues because they increase everybody elses DPS by a huge chunk.  Not only that but they debuff the outgoing damage of the mob and they can stagger AEs longer to allow everybody to DPS much more with less deaths.</p><p>The fact is Fighters should all do T2 DPS all the time WITH a shield because that is the only reason you will consider bringing more than 2.  It gives them the utility of being able to DPS and take more damage while doing it.  They don't bring a lot of anything else.  EQ2 is a completely DPS-centric game...raids don't want to [Removed for Content] their DPS to bring more than 2 fighters.  SOE has recognized this and the biggest mistake they would make is forcing [Removed for Content] DPS on Fighters to do their job.  Bards don't [Removed for Content] their DPS to bring more raid DPS, they actually have to maximize it.  Same with Chanters.  Same with Rogues.  Its really a simple concept and it is by this way alone that SOE is making the Fighter class much more appealing to play in all situations and much more beneficial to raids.  The survivability angle won't work because Healers are so fricken OP'd that bringing one extra Healer will always negate any amount of extra fighters you try and bring for survivability.</p><p>What I find completely ironic is that you complain about the classes that aremore enjoyable to play (Crusaders, Zerkers) and the reason they are is probably because of this very concept.  But instead of making the classes all as enjoyable you would rather [Removed for Content] us all down to be less enjoyable and really less useful.  That makes no sense to me.  Anybody that complains about Crusaders and Zerkers should be pushing for similar changes to their classes for the very reason why so many people are choosing to play those classes.</p></blockquote><p>Crusaders out parse bards stop saying they are the same level DPS.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  Anybody that complains about Crusaders and Zerkers should be pushing for similar changes to their classes for the very reason why so many people are choosing to play those classes.</p></blockquote><p>That reason being that people are f'ing lazy and will flock to the easiest OP classes to play because they like to feel useful without actually having to have any skill or learn the game or the synergies that should exist between classes.</p><p>The last thing the game needs is more OP classes.</p><p>If the only thing SOE can come up with to make extra fighters on raids appealing is give them DPS they shouldn't have then they fail at class balance.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Rathgar: (02:05) | 82104946 | 656840 | [Dakkota-Fiery Blast-558095]Gaig | 76332 (assassin) G1Dakk | 71269 (wizard) G4Thri | 52014 (coercer) G1Snik | 50667 (brigand) G4Solj | 48628 (conjurer) G3Cocy | 44395 (swash) G2Wret | 41257 (swash) G3Jera | 34613 (sk) G4Jeal | 32484 (paladin) G1Apha | 31603 (coercer) G2Ultr | 31065 (illusionist) G4Show | 27938 (illusionist) G3Ilya | 26117 (dirge) G1Guid | 23298 (troub) G3Bold | 22743 (troub) G4Rast | 15453 (dirge) G2Drys | 15234 (zerk) G2Envi | 2630 (fury) G4Rixa | 2590 (temp) G1Denu | 2541 (defiler) G1Maya | 1942 (defiler) G2Stor | 987 (warden) G3Seva | 632 (temp) G2Seri | 407 (defiler) G3</p><p>From another thread....Jeal is the MT as well taking more deaths I am sure.  I know a lot of people are in denial about Paladins but spec'd and geared for it like SKs they do just as good DPS and I can throw you parse after parse when our old Paladin is in the raid to show you it if you want.  Of course you can get the same data by simply going over to flames and looking at the DPS comparisons.  Really the difference in a parse will come from whose bard is better with VC.</p><p>Most of the issue with Paladins not parsing well is that a lot of people don't know how to, or more importantly don't spec to.  Well its not like it was needed because I know it was suprising to watch a new Paladin alt doing 1/3 of the DPS as me (somebody very new to class and behind on gear and masters) was actually ripping off of me in the raid not including HG.</p><p>Anyhow start believing because it is definitely true.</p></blockquote><p>Whats broken is that fighters are doing that kinda of DPS and sacrificing little if anything to do so.........they should be down with the healers IMO.</p></blockquote><p>You think half the DPS of T1 DPS'ers is a lot?  Look at the classes around them...you see utility classes.  Classes that are supposed to be low parsers.  Above them by 20% are T2 rogues.  So those fighters are going all offensive gear and stance and it is wrong for them to be pushing low T2 DPS?</p><p>The real problem is that people are still refusing to recognize that Fighters should be doing decent DPS all the time.  Its what SOE is trying to give them to encourage more fighters in a raid instead of only having 2 and than gimping the raid with alt fighters when a scripted fight calls for more every now and than.</p></blockquote><p>Yes it is alot considering the surviveability of the class.  Even in your so called all offensive gear and O stance fighters still have much more survivability that those bards.   If SoE made it so fighters could not use any of their "blocks", DA, ToS, etc or even equp a shield and cut their mit in half  when being "DPS" then maybe.</p><p>If you got fighters doing T2+ DPS then they should have the surviveability of a T2 DPS class.</p></blockquote><p>Yes and those bards bring a crap ton more raid DPS than those fighters thru buffs and temp buffs.  VC alone is probably the number 1 DPS item on parses now and it is a temp buff from bards.  Now factor in all the other buffs they give that raise the DPS AND survivability of others in a raid and it really wouldn't matter if the bard was bringing 0 DPS, you would bring them just for the massive amount of raid DPS they bring.  Do me a favor and go thru a parse sometime on a raid and give the DPS credit to the class that actually causes it.  You will probably see Bards at the very top by a long shot in what they bring for DPS followed by Chanters and Healers!?!.</p><p>Rogues are another great example of T2 DPS.  They do almost T1 DPS and yet thru debuffs they increase the DPS of raids by a very large amount.  You could cut Rogue DPS down to Bard type DPS and you would still bring Rogues because they increase everybody elses DPS by a huge chunk.  Not only that but they debuff the outgoing damage of the mob and they can stagger AEs longer to allow everybody to DPS much more with less deaths.</p><p>The fact is Fighters should all do T2 DPS all the time WITH a shield because that is the only reason you will consider bringing more than 2.  It gives them the utility of being able to DPS and take more damage while doing it.  They don't bring a lot of anything else.  EQ2 is a completely DPS-centric game...raids don't want to [Removed for Content] their DPS to bring more than 2 fighters.  SOE has recognized this and the biggest mistake they would make is forcing [Removed for Content] DPS on Fighters to do their job.  Bards don't [Removed for Content] their DPS to bring more raid DPS, they actually have to maximize it.  Same with Chanters.  Same with Rogues.  Its really a simple concept and it is by this way alone that SOE is making the Fighter class much more appealing to play in all situations and much more beneficial to raids.  The survivability angle won't work because Healers are so fricken OP'd that bringing one extra Healer will always negate any amount of extra fighters you try and bring for survivability.</p><p>What I find completely ironic is that you complain about the classes that aremore enjoyable to play (Crusaders, Zerkers) and the reason they are is probably because of this very concept.  But instead of making the classes all as enjoyable you would rather [Removed for Content] us all down to be less enjoyable and really less useful.  That makes no sense to me.  Anybody that complains about Crusaders and Zerkers should be pushing for similar changes to their classes for the very reason why so many people are choosing to play those classes.</p></blockquote><p>Crusaders out parse bards stop saying they are the same level DPS.</p></blockquote><p>Do I really need to paste from the DPS thread all the parses with Bards out parsing all fighters?  I could probably dig up the parse we had the other night where the Bruiser was the highest fighter in the parse too.</p><p>And no Gaylon it is not about being f'ing lazy.  Lazy people do not parse well period.  Good players parse well.  The original Fighter Revamp would have been made for lazy players where all that was required was a taunt macro by any tank to hold agro off of anybody.  Synergies exist between classes to DPS more.  Its those synergies that allow Fighters to do good DPS along with everybody else.  Temp buffs gallore and buffs from other classes are the majority of parses in todays game...so why shouldn't a fighter take advantage of all that DPS from OTHER classes just like every other class gets to?  It makes the game 10x more enjoyable....and nobody, nobody can deny that the numbers say exactly that.  Sorry that a few people want to stand against the vast majority of people that specifically have finally rolled up a fighter because they know they will be able to enjoy the class.  Its not about keeping it difficult so that only a select few are good at it.....this game is all about subscriptions on how to keep people enjoying the game so they gain subscriptions, or at the very least not lose them.</p><p>Keep waging that war though.  Maybe if you get your way you might have enough people left in-game to actually try and put a raid together.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Do I really need to paste from the DPS thread all the parses with Bards out parsing all fighters?  I could probably dig up the parse we had the other night where the Bruiser was the highest fighter in the parse too.</p><p>And no Gaylon it is not about being f'ing lazy.  Lazy people do not parse well period.  Good players parse well.  The original Fighter Revamp would have been made for lazy players where all that was required was a taunt macro by any tank to hold agro off of anybody.  Synergies exist between classes to DPS more.  Its those synergies that allow Fighters to do good DPS along with everybody else.  Temp buffs gallore and buffs from other classes are the majority of parses in todays game...so why shouldn't a fighter take advantage of all that DPS from OTHER classes just like every other class gets to?  It makes the game 10x more enjoyable....and nobody, nobody can deny that the numbers say exactly that.  Sorry that a few people want to stand against the vast majority of people that specifically have finally rolled up a fighter because they know they will be able to enjoy the class.  Its not about keeping it difficult so that only a select few are good at it.....this game is all about subscriptions on how to keep people enjoying the game so they gain subscriptions, or at the very least not lose them.</p><p>Keep waging that war though.  Maybe if you get your way you might have enough people left in-game to actually try and put a raid together.</p></blockquote><p>Go dig up the top bard parse on that thread then go dig up the top crusader parse then come back.  Moreso if you want to point out the 2 parses where a bard actually beat a crusader please don't ignore the other 10 parses where they didn't.  Your level of bias is so rediculously swayed that it is borderline delusional.  Yes a bard can outparse a crusader on a fight where the crusader probably died 2-3 times to a death touch but why don't you try being realistic for once?</p>

[Gilasil]

<p>I don't know what the proper DPS for fighters should be, but I DO know that there's not enough demand for them in raids.  A well set up raid should require around six fighters.  Most definately not two.  This has been a problem for years and doesn't appear to be getting any better.  The four archetypes have very close to the same number of active toons (defined as toons at level 90) yet the fighter archetype is VASTLY underrepresented in raids.</p><p>Since the EQ2 mechanics generally don't require six tanks, fighters need to bring something else to a raid. Whether that be DPS or something or some buff, fighters NEED to bring something to a raid which is considered ESSENTIAL for success.  If SoE simply can't come up with anything else they should give fighters DPS, but something else would work too IF AND ONLY IF it was something which a raid would absolutely require to succeed.</p><p>One possability would be some fighter only group buff which can't be done while tanking and is absolutely essential.</p><p>But something needs to be done.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>Breuner,</p><p>If you think all Fighters should be around T2 DPS then give Guardians the ability to be there. I believe it was your raid MT that posted parses that showed he was around half the DPS a Crusader was doing in the same raid even in DW, Offensive and most of his DPS gear with all the MT buffs (minues the MT reactives and stuff).</p><p>If that is what you want then go ahead and give my Guardian the ability to equal your DPS level. If that will fix fighters then we are all done. I don't want that level of DPS but I would really like to get this stupid balance problem fixed so give me my DPS!</p><p>This means your utility idea are out the window.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't know what the proper DPS for fighters should be, but I DO know that there's not enough demand for them in raids.  A well set up raid should require around six fighters.  Most definately not two.  This has been a problem for years and doesn't appear to be getting any better.  The four archetypes have very close to the same number of active toons (defined as toons at level 90) yet the fighter archetype is VASTLY underrepresented in raids.</p><p>Since the EQ2 mechanics generally don't require six tanks, fighters need to bring something else to a raid. Whether that be DPS or something or some buff, fighters NEED to bring something to a raid which is considered ESSENTIAL for success.  If SoE simply can't come up with anything else they should give fighters DPS, but something else would work too IF AND ONLY IF it was something which a raid would absolutely require to succeed.</p><p>One possability would be some fighter only group buff which can't be done while tanking and is absolutely essential.</p><p>But something needs to be done.</p></blockquote><p>Or you give fighters good DPS all the time, including when having to tank, and their mid-T2 DPS + survivability makes them an asset on raids and allows raid leaders to seriously consider the options of bringing another Fighter or another utility/DPS.  This also frees up SOE to start creating more tank heavy encounters since it won't be a "detriment" to the raid to bring more than 2-3 fighters.  For example encounters like Zarrakon at first seem like such a PITA because you had to "[Removed for Content]" your raids DPS and set up 4 fighters to tank...and as soon as guilds had it on farm status they tried to figure out everyway possible to avoid having to bring in those 1-2 alts.  With fighters doing T2 DPS all the time it allows for 4 fighters in the raid all the time and builds a stronger raid roster.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Breuner,</p><p>If you think all Fighters should be around T2 DPS then give Guardians the ability to be there. I believe it was your raid MT that posted parses that showed he was around half the DPS a Crusader was doing in the same raid even in DW, Offensive and most of his DPS gear with all the MT buffs (minues the MT reactives and stuff).</p><p>If that is what you want then go ahead and give my Guardian the ability to equal your DPS level. If that will fix fighters then we are all done. I don't want that level of DPS but I would really like to get this stupid balance problem fixed so give me my DPS!</p><p>This means your utility idea are out the window.</p></blockquote><p>Again it becomes clear that you don't read anything I say ever.  In other threads I have clearly posted (and here) that ALL fighters should be able to do that DPS.  Yes that would mean an increase to Guard DPS.  The difference in fighters should than be their abilities (which are pretty different especially if you consider some abilities are much better at AE while others are much better for ST) and the utility they bring to a group/raid.  Defensive tanks should have defensive utility for their group/raid.  Paladins are a great example of this since they can help heal their group a lot and have a +raid-wide buff that adds to the survivability of the raid squishies.  Guards need some abilities that put them in-line with that.  Instead of heals a Guard could have group stoneskins available (that don't kill themselves) and a raid-wide buff that adds +crit mit or +hp.</p><p>EDIT: Before somebody uses what I said in the past against me, yes in the past I did not believe all should have the same DPS....but as this xpac evolves it seems pretty clear that allowing all Fighters to compete well for DPS on raids will brnig things into a pretty good place for balance and that to maintain the "flavor" of the class the type of utility that a fighter brings should be what distinguishes them.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>EDIT: Before somebody uses what I said in the past against me, yes in the past I did not believe all should have the same DPS....but as this xpac evolves it seems pretty clear that allowing all Fighters to compete well for DPS on raids will brnig things into a pretty good place for balance and that to maintain the "flavor" of the class the type of utility that a fighter brings should be what distinguishes them.</p></blockquote><p>So you admit you were wrong finally.  Now the next step is realizing your first solutions were in fact incorrect because you were wrong when creating them.  Balance means the choice for tank in any situation shouldn't matter.  It means that the 90% of raids using an SK as MT could switch to any other tank and not see any sort of drop off.  Now most of us are perfectly fine with small differences like for example a ST vs AE tank, however having an SK be the best at everything isn't balance.  Fact is as a monk when I tank I should have to turn off my hate proc and not hit my taunts before an SK should pull single target agro while I am tanking, the reality is the SK has to back off his stuff while I am going all out, the same is for a guardian.  The same reality is I have absolutely 0 chance of pulling agro on an ae encounter from any of the AE tanks, you can't have it both ways.  Something needs to change.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>Oh I read what you write Breuner. At least the stuff that isn't in blue text on a black back ground.</p><p>The fact is that your wrong. Balance only has one defination. You can't push and pull it around to match what you want it to be. If you really believe that Guardians should be balanced then balance us and quit coming up with little things to throw us that don't impead your play style. You come here and discuss/argue a great deal but the fact is you look at parses of one MT Guardian and assume the rest of the game is the same. It's not. If you dig through the parse you'll see that.</p><p>You say DPS is addicting and fun but yet you play a fighter that is suppose to tank. I just don't get your reasoning on these things. Fighters get benefits that real DPS classes do not get. DPS classes get benefits that fighters do not get. It's not rocket science. Fighters should never be considered a DPS class. Just becasue you think it's fun doesn't make it right.</p><p>Now, SOE needs to find a way to get 6 fighters into a raid but that is another issue.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><table style="width: 223pt; border-collapse: collapse;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="297"><colgroup span="1"><span style="color: #ffffff;"><col span="1" width="105"></col><col span="3" width="64"></col></span></colgroup><tbody><tr height="34"><td width="105" height="34"><span style="color: #ffffff;"> </span></td><td width="64"><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">Raw #</span></td><td width="64"><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">%</span></td><td width="64"><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">Compared to SK</span></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">Guardian</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">1,709</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">11.8%</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">39.7%</span></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">Berserker</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">2,357</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">16.3%</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">54.8%</span></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">Monk</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">1,824</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">12.6%</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">42.4%</span></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">Bruiser</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">1,740</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">12.0%</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">40.4%</span></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">Paladin</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">2,559</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">17.7%</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">59.5%</span></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">Shadow Knight</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">4,303</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">29.7%</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">NA</span></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr height="17"><td height="17"><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">Total</span></td><td><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #ffffff; font-family: Arial;">14,492</span></td><td><span style="color: #ffffff;"> </span></td><td><span style="color: #ffffff;"> </span></td></tr></tbody></table></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;"> </span></p><p>Still says it all. You can't argur with this.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Again it becomes clear that you don't read anything I say ever.  In other threads I have clearly posted (and here) that ALL fighters should be able to do that DPS.  Yes that would mean an increase to Guard DPS.  The difference in fighters should than be their abilities (which are pretty different especially if you consider some abilities are much better at AE while others are much better for ST) and the utility they bring to a group/raid.  Defensive tanks should have defensive utility for their group/raid.  Paladins are a great example of this since they can help heal their group a lot and have a +raid-wide buff that adds to the survivability of the raid squishies.  Guards need some abilities that put them in-line with that.  Instead of heals a Guard could have group stoneskins available (that don't kill themselves) and a raid-wide buff that adds +crit mit or +hp.</p><p>EDIT: Before somebody uses what I said in the past against me, yes in the past I did not believe all should have the same DPS....but as this xpac evolves it seems pretty clear that allowing all Fighters to compete well for DPS on raids will brnig things into a pretty good place for balance and that to maintain the "flavor" of the class the type of utility that a fighter brings should be what distinguishes them.</p></blockquote><p>I'm still in pure shock that Bruener finally outright admitted hypocrisy and is now starting to say some of what the majority of non-sk mode infatuated players have been saying for... oh I don't know, a couple years back when the topic of tank balance got heated?</p><p>You'll find the majority of other players posting about fighter balance don't really have that big of a problem with the fighters putting out respectable dps, it's that they're doing so without paying the price of being dps or that just "put moar dps onto it" is the developer's solution to everything when it is a much larger core problem, and your supporting such ideas is not helping the well being of the game other than supporting band-aid fixes that will just need to be redone later anyway.</p><p>I don't like that my paladin is basically the same in defensive stance and offensive stance because it makes the reason for stances pretty much non-existent which also means I'm tanking or rolling an alt. I also don't like that my offensive stance gives me INT that I can use absolutely zilch of because no one has bothered to address the issue with stances and they are now several years needing to be updated. If I go into offensive stance, I should be considered "dps" and respectable dps at that because what else will my paladin provide? A raid wide dps buff every few minutes, an AA option that gives 760 physical mitigation to non-fighters at the cost of using/getting additional avoidance check buffs myself, and heals that are meant to top off the life pools to make life easier on the healers from frequent small damage aoes namely heroic mob type aoes or reposte damage (and seeing as healers can push some serious green number foo these days, those heals are even more situational than before). Thats not a lot to merit bringing my paladin for other than tanking. If I go in defensive stance, I should be far more impervious to damage than I was in offensive stance and logically my damage should suffer on a similar scale. Thats not the case either.</p><p>Things are much better for my paladin, but it doesn't address the core problem; they were meant to manipulate hate, not generate it, and be the jack of all trades master of none. Thats what I rolled him for, and thats what I wanted to play. Since the game is getting pigeon holed into one style of tanking "spam moar buttuhns to do moar dps!!1" it's pretty much killing any difference between the tank types and taking the fun and reason out of having different tank types.</p><p>Pretty much every class will have a large number of individuals that feel the same way with their classes as I'm feeling about my paladin. Thats where a lot of the concern and upset over "balance" comes from; not because one fighter can spank another fighter in the "[Removed for Content] rage-mode-on contest that spews elitism all over the place" that we call the parse, but because the fighter classes that many of us rolled are getting warped into SK version #w/e and that is not what many people rolled them to be.</p><p>When you see the numbers in wasuna's post, you should automatically think that those with the lower numbers should bring the largest amount of utility, survivability, and threat to the scenario. It's actually pretty opposite in at least the survivability and threat categories, and thats another huge problem. Each class should put out very similar HATE, but not the same dps or threat or in the exact same manner as each other.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oh I read what you write Breuner. At least the stuff that isn't in blue text on a black back ground.</p><p>The fact is that your wrong. Balance only has one defination. You can't push and pull it around to match what you want it to be. If you really believe that Guardians should be balanced then balance us and quit coming up with little things to throw us that don't impead your play style. You come here and discuss/argue a great deal but the fact is you look at parses of one MT Guardian and assume the rest of the game is the same. It's not. If you dig through the parse you'll see that.</p><p>You say DPS is addicting and fun but yet you play a fighter that is suppose to tank. I just don't get your reasoning on these things. Fighters get benefits that real DPS classes do not get. DPS classes get benefits that fighters do not get. It's not rocket science. Fighters should never be considered a DPS class. Just becasue you think it's fun doesn't make it right.</p><p>Now, SOE needs to find a way to get 6 fighters into a raid but that is another issue.</p></blockquote><p>Can you really not see what people want besides the few of you loud mouths on these boards?  Why do you think it is that SK numbers have swelled?  Its not about your selfish role of just being able to take a hit anymore.  Its about the TANKS/FIGHTERS contributing to the raid.</p><p>DPS is fun and addicting and it ALWAYS has been.  You guys act like Fighters DPS'ing good is a new thing, it seems that you are forgetting how it has been in the past.  KOS we had a Zerker that could smoke T1 DPS classes.  The buffed up Fighters have always parsed where they parse in relation to DPS classes in todays game...the difference is that more Fighters can do it now, and they don't have to be tanking to do it.</p><p>Yes I admitted I was wrong on a subject.  Its too bad none of you can ever man up and admit when you were wrong, especially you Blanka.  I had to remove my sig of what you said not even a few months ago about SKs being balanced....but wait you are never wrong are you?</p><p>And seriously, the last thing I wanna hear is a Paladin trying to speak from a "balanced" class.  You probably play the only Fighter class that actually needs some changes simply because hate is beyond easy-mode and things really show at the high end what a Paladin can do.</p><p>Anyway, it doesn't matter what the QQ'ers on these forums have to say.  The fact is SOE recognizes how people enjoy playing and they can see all the numbers they want.  If your waiting for some kind of revamp its not going to happen and you are going to be extremely disappointed.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Can you really not see what people want besides the few of you loud mouths on these boards?  Why do you think it is that SK numbers have swelled?  Its not about your selfish role of just being able to take a hit anymore.  Its about the TANKS/FIGHTERS contributing to the raid.</p><p>DPS is fun and addicting and it ALWAYS has been.  You guys act like Fighters DPS'ing good is a new thing, it seems that you are forgetting how it has been in the past.  KOS we had a Zerker that could smoke T1 DPS classes.  The buffed up Fighters have always parsed where they parse in relation to DPS classes in todays game...the difference is that more Fighters can do it now, and they don't have to be tanking to do it.</p><p>Yes I admitted I was wrong on a subject.  Its too bad none of you can ever man up and admit when you were wrong, especially you Blanka.  I had to remove my sig of what you said not even a few months ago about SKs being balanced....but wait you are never wrong are you?</p><p>And seriously, the last thing I wanna hear is a Paladin trying to speak from a "balanced" class.  You probably play the only Fighter class that actually needs some changes simply because hate is beyond easy-mode and things really show at the high end what a Paladin can do.</p><p>Anyway, it doesn't matter what the QQ'ers on these forums have to say.  The fact is SOE recognizes how people enjoy playing and they can see all the numbers they want.  If your waiting for some kind of revamp its not going to happen and you are going to be extremely disappointed.</p></blockquote><p>You still don't get it.  If other tanks get buffed up to SK levels then yes things are balanced a thing you have been fighting against until this suspicious change of heart today.  Likewise if classes get nerfed.  I have been saying since BETA that ST tanks are hurting in ST DPS/AGRO and its creating a huge imbalance.  I have never said SK's survive too much or offer too much utility etc etc this is and has been a ST vs AE tank issue from the start and it is all around agro.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Can you really not see what people want besides the few of you loud mouths on these boards?  Why do you think it is that SK numbers have swelled?  Its not about your selfish role of just being able to take a hit anymore.  Its about the TANKS/FIGHTERS contributing to the raid.</p><p>DPS is fun and addicting and it ALWAYS has been.  You guys act like Fighters DPS'ing good is a new thing, it seems that you are forgetting how it has been in the past.  KOS we had a Zerker that could smoke T1 DPS classes.  The buffed up Fighters have always parsed where they parse in relation to DPS classes in todays game...the difference is that more Fighters can do it now, and they don't have to be tanking to do it.</p><p>Yes I admitted I was wrong on a subject.  Its too bad none of you can ever man up and admit when you were wrong, especially you Blanka.  I had to remove my sig of what you said not even a few months ago about SKs being balanced....but wait you are never wrong are you?</p><p>And seriously, the last thing I wanna hear is a Paladin trying to speak from a "balanced" class.  You probably play the only Fighter class that actually needs some changes simply because hate is beyond easy-mode and things really show at the high end what a Paladin can do.</p><p>Anyway, it doesn't matter what the QQ'ers on these forums have to say.  The fact is SOE recognizes how people enjoy playing and they can see all the numbers they want.  If your waiting for some kind of revamp its not going to happen and you are going to be extremely disappointed.</p></blockquote><p>You still don't get it.  If other tanks get buffed up to SK levels then yes things are balanced a thing you have been fighting against until this suspicious change of heart today.  Likewise if classes get nerfed.  I have been saying since BETA that ST tanks are hurting in ST DPS/AGRO and its creating a huge imbalance.  I have never said SK's survive too much or offer too much utility etc etc this is and has been a ST vs AE tank issue from the start and it is all around agro.</p></blockquote><p>You still don't get it.  The only one needing some buffing in DPS is Guards.  All the other fighters already do mid-T2 DPS except for Brawlers in defensive which they sacrifice DPS for basically better survivability than any other tank with high mit levels AND the highest avoidance by a long shot.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes I admitted I was wrong on a subject.  Its too bad none of you can ever man up and admit when you were wrong, especially you Blanka.  I had to remove my sig of what you said not even a few months ago about SKs being balanced....but wait you are never wrong are you?</p><p>And seriously, the last thing I wanna hear is a Paladin trying to speak from a "balanced" class.  You probably play the only Fighter class that actually needs some changes simply because hate is beyond easy-mode and things really show at the high end what a Paladin can do.</p><p>Anyway, it doesn't matter what the QQ'ers on these forums have to say.  The fact is SOE recognizes how people enjoy playing and they can see all the numbers they want.  If your waiting for some kind of revamp its not going to happen and you are going to be extremely disappointed.</p></blockquote><p>We're saying the exact same things we've always said. It's your statements that have changed and thus why it's being questioned why all of a sudden the change of opinion after many months of continuously belittling everyone else that doesn't side with the sks are fine, l2p bettah types of comments usually seen next to your tag.</p><p>I'm not really sure if you're saying I should be talking from a stand point of being balanced or needing changes... your 4th paragraph (2nd in my quote) statement was too convoluted to really understand what you meant.</p><p>Is calling those with legitimate concerns QQers really the mature way to approach this thread? Has it really boiled down to name calling? I see a number of people that remain largely unoffensive and it boggles my mind how often you're attacking everyone else that doesn't agree with you and without persecution by the mods. Calling people with legitimate and logical concerns and comments QQers is not helping solve the very valid and soundly based concern that there is serious problems with tank hate and soloability balance.</p><p>Additionally, if there wasn't as serious of an issue as many of us are posting about, there wouldn't have been the massive hate revamp that got cancelled and later announced to be executed in the form of mini-patching on case by case basis. The devs wouldn't be addressing the issue if there wasn't balance issues to begin with. The solution of just adding moar dps like you've always wanted isn't going to solve anything either, and it's apparent that the devs are trying to do that but at the same time not make it just purely moar dps because they apparently understand the flawed thinking in that methodology and understand that it's not the answer.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You still don't get it.  The only one needing some buffing in DPS is Guards.  All the other fighters already do mid-T2 DPS except for Brawlers in defensive which they sacrifice DPS for basically better survivability than any other tank with high mit levels AND the highest avoidance by a long shot.</p></blockquote><p>Wrong because if you are going to screw over brawlers then things aren't balanced, brawlers need a single target DPS BUFF because SK's, ZERKS, PALYS all out single target them.  This is you just not getting it yet again, lets call it Bruener Doesnt Have a Clue the Sequel!</p>

[Raahl]

<p>Wow this is still going strong, but has slightly deviated from my original topic.  Not biggie, I hope some usefull information actually comes to the attention of the Devs from this.  I won't hold my breath though.</p><p>IMO Solo imbalance is all about DPS.  Some classes currently are vastly superior than others.  Classes that are lagging behind need to be brought up to the level of the other classes.</p><p>Also, Sony needs to take a long and hard look at removing the hate element from DPS when tanking and replace it with another method of generating hate that can be balanced better.  Make taunts the main component of hate generation for tanks.  Balance the taunts for each class, so that every tank class can hold aggro.</p><p>Maybe I'm over simplifying things, I don't know.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also, Sony needs to take a long and hard look at removing the hate element from DPS when tanking and replace it with another method of generating hate that can be balanced better.  Make taunts the main component of hate generation for tanks.  Balance the taunts for each class, so that every tank class can hold aggro.</p><p>Maybe I'm over simplifying things, I don't know.</p></blockquote><p>To a degree.</p><p>What should give tanks flavor is what component of overall hate is dps vs tps generated.  Once class should be an extremely heavy taunter with little dps output, and another should be extremely high dps with almost no taunt output.</p><p>Within that scale.  Each class should be able to adjust within that class's relative tier.  So a paladin might be low to middle on TPS vs DPS, but within that tiering, using a combination of stance, aa, passive buffs, and wield style he should be able to adjust to either end of the paladin spectrum. </p><p>The problem is SOE has not made stances, buffs, and wield style important and relevant decision points for fighters.</p><p>I see a paladin able to go offensive stance, 2hand wield, use some other dps boost (but tps penalty) buff, and push out to the upper end of their dps potential while sacrificing taunt values and survivability out soloing or not actively tanking in a raid.   Then if solo he gets some adds, or in a raid he has to grab an add, he can swap weapons, swap stances, and cancel his dps buff and immediately shoot up on survivability and taunt values while sacrificing dps, and maybe some group dps utility.</p><p>I could see tanks built this way to be challenging and fun to play at the same time.</p><p>The current system though, if you rolled anything other than sk, pal, or zerker, you probably need to re-evaluate your decision on being a fighter.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>While I 100% agree that total HPS (TSP + DPS) should be equal amoung fighters, making one fighter taunt driven and another DPS driven just means that the DPS tank will always be chosen. If survivability is balanced and HPS is balanced, why wouldn't you want the extra 20-30K DPS?</p><p>Tough balancing 6 tanks when you only really need 1.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Tough balancing 6 tanks when you only really need 1.</p></blockquote><p>Truth.</p>

[Landiin]

They just needs to state this class and this class are harden tanks this class and this class is support tanks and be done with the whole all 6 fighters can tank BS. I really don't care what fighter gets what as I can reroll to the type of tank I prefer to be.

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Tough balancing 6 tanks when you only really need 1.</p></blockquote><p>Truth.</p></blockquote><p>Clearly from your posting that is how you feel it should be.  Thanks for admitting what we already knew.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>While I 100% agree that total HPS (TSP + DPS) should be equal amoung fighters, making one fighter taunt driven and another DPS driven just means that the DPS tank will always be chosen. If survivability is balanced and HPS is balanced, why wouldn't you want the extra 20-30K DPS?</p></blockquote><p>I'm not explaining my self clearly enough if that is what you garnish from my post, cause it isn't at all what I'm suggesting.</p><p>I do agree when the content doesn't provide a challenge, the tank that has the most dps output with the minimum survivability to get the task done will be the prefered choice.</p><p>As such, offesnive tanks will be favored for almost all heroic instances, they'll be favored for off tanking, and easier raid tanking, but at some point the challenge point on survivability should exceed the comfort zone of the most offensively blessed tanks.</p><p>But more to that, in each tank class, it should be possible to move from either side of that classes spectrum by a combination of stances, aa, wield style, and utility buffs. </p><p>It's an envelope model, if you are familiar with that testing method, in order to reach the top offensive potential of a fighter class, you should also be at your lowest survivability point.  Thus 2hand and dw wield styles should be required for offensive potential, and sheilds and hunker stances on the other end of the envelope.</p><p>When max dps potential can be achieved without significant sacrafice from any other tanking attribute, things are out of skew.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>I understand what your saying. I was just caryring it to the game enviroment. We have six fighters and if each go about doing the job is slightly different ways then for every situation we are going to have a preferd tank. That will always be the tank that is slightly higher up the DPS chart while at an acceptable survivability level for the current content. What you describe is where all fighters narrow down into basically a similar point for the hardest encounters.</p><p>What that means is we are back to what we have now. All fighters are basically equal for the hardest of raid mobs and the DPS tanks are by far the best choice for anything below that.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-size: 11px;"><strong><em>n/m <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></em></strong></span></span></p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What that means is we are back to what we have now. All fighters are basically equal for the hardest of raid mobs and the DPS tanks are by far the best choice for anything below that.</p></blockquote><p>No, each fighter is only working within the tier of their class.  If, they for example all went all the way to the offensive side of the envelope for thier class, the most offensive fighter class will still out dps the rest, and the most defensive fighter class will be the lowest.  As they can only work within the envelope available to them.</p><p>The reverse is also true, the most defensive tank will be more survivable than the rest, but when all fighters are on the defensive side of the envelope, the most offensive one (who also has the least amount of defense) will still be top of pure dps output.  There is still room to break them up between ST vs AoE within that spectrum to add further diversification.</p><p>But if tanks don't give up something to go to either ends of those spectrums, and have clear distinguishing thresholds when compairing seperate classes, there just isn't any reason to have 6 of them.</p><p>It is only when we all can do something to the exact same efficacy that things are a problem.  Currently survivability is close to that point, and most of us are making significant sacrifices to gain that survivability.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>Again I agree with you but it doesn't apply to the game. If one tank has more survivability then they are the default raid tank choice. If all fighters have equal survivability then the highest DPS one if the defacto raid MT choice. If you make the defensive tank have a noticable edge in survivability then the rest of the fighters can just stop playing cause they won't get a spot for anything other than a scripted raid fight that needs them.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Again I agree with you but it doesn't apply to the game. If one tank has more survivability then they are the default raid tank choice. If all fighters have equal survivability then the highest DPS one if the defacto raid MT choice.</p></blockquote><p>I disagree, there is room for 3 fighters on a raid, and with enough utility/dps there is room for 4.</p><p>I do not believe if one tank has the most survivability your suddenly going to see 3 guardians on a raid, you only need one survivability tank (guard/pally) for your raid force, you want an offensive ae powerhouse (sk/berzerker) on your OT slot, and a rodeo clown avoidance lend brawler in the 3rd.</p><p>With survivability being nearly equal, you always want an offensive powerhouse in every fighter slot, that is for sure, and thats really where we are now.</p>

[yzyh]

<p>1) By low 50's any of the 6tank can clear army of mobs if they get battle hardening AA</p><p>2) Yes SK is probably the best class at AoE grinding. But if your talking about heroics killing SK are far to be on the top of the soloing class. I do have a lvl 50 SK and a 50inq that I'm boxing. And 1vs1 the inq solo heroic that my SK couldn't</p><p>3) SO well who do realy care ? Class X beeing 3 time bether at AoE soloing none heroic mobs then class Y isn't realy a problem. Also every game have class who can AoE solo thing that other class just can't.</p><p>If SK could farm heroic contant as good as they level grinding it would be a poblem. But it's not the case.</p>

[alabama]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite></cite></p><p>But if tanks don't give up something to go to either ends of those spectrums, and have clear distinguishing thresholds when compairing seperate classes, there just isn't any reason to have 6 of them.</p></blockquote><p>exactly.</p>

[Chanliang]

<p>Slightly old thread but my shadow knightt with plate, shield, all physical resistance from class/race advancement and 5 AA points to battle hardened reducing incoming melee damage X amount. At level 52 I can pretty much take any number (literally) of -10 to +4 level normal mobs up to 1 arrow up and kill them without ever losing more than 15% hp. From combat log I can see text "mob/npc X couldn't inflict any damage to you) most of the time. Whatever small amount of HP I lose life taps and heals will heal me close to full hp. I can kill with harm touch up even con triple arrow named starred mobs.</p><p>I can go to pillars of flame or clefts of Rujark in sinking sands and pull everything on sight and aoe them down with no danger of dying, doenst matter if Im half the time stunned or sleeping... Something is bit broken <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>In instances things are slightly different as battle hardened doesnt trivialize damage there.</p>

[Odys]

<p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I was harvesting in TT yesterday near the stone area just off the zone in.  A character came along, grabbed 6-8 of the droags, level 57 mobs, and proceeded to decimate them.  This character didn't go below green on their health bar.</p><p>Now what level was this character?  52.  What class was this character?  SK</p><p>Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to inspect the SK before he ran off.</p><p>I've seen something similar when doing the quests leading up to the solo LS shard quest.  A SK comes into the area, just to the left of the docks, grabs a bunch of the mobs and kills them in short order.  At the time I was more annoyed because I needed those mobs for the quest, so I didn't look at their level or inspect them.</p><p>If I were to do either of these with my guardian at those level, I would have died!  Not sure about the other classes.</p><p>What makes it possible for the SK class to trivialize content like this and when might we see the other fighter classes get similar capabilities?</p><p>I suspect it's the combination of Survivability and DPS that allows them to do this.  To my knowledge no other fighter class has this ability.</p><p>The fix for this will probably be different for each of the remaining classes.  I suspect that brawlers might need more survivabily and a little more DPS and that Warriors would need more DPS and possibly little survivability.</p><p>Could the Devs please look into what I have observed and verify that nothing screwy was going on to skew their ability to solo large quantities of mobs.</p></blockquote><p>I did the same with a 52 paladin, indeed i took up to 20 droargs.</p><p>I had battle hardening (most cheated AA) and 40% AOe auto attack (hit only 4 target) + several open AOE.</p><p>Like 3 monthes ago i asked on live forum for an examination of battle hardenning. This Aa does not scale down well. It allows any fighter to pull any amount of mob (like 2-3 rooms in runny eye) and to kill them using aoe.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>No need to necropost guys.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>you'd think someone with over 2k posts would know better.</p>