Test Server Update (cool stuff!) [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

SmokeJumper

06-24-2010, 05:27 PM

Hey folks,You're seeing some new changes on Test right now. We're doing a bunch of revamping, some of it to make the game a lot faster when you play it, and a bunch more to make the game more intuitive and cool when start playing for the first time.This is just the tip of the iceberg, but here's what you're seeing so far:<ol><li>The skill progression for the lower levels was a) drowning new players in skills that they didn't understand, and b) often giving players certain skills way before they needed them. Also, some classes just simply weren't getting enough useful skills in order to have fun. So we've shuffled things around. Details of that shuffling are listed below.</li><li>Shader 3.0 optimizations! Shader 3.0 is now way faster than it used to be. In most cases, it will outstrip Shader 1.0 by 10 fps or more. Very cool. (Okay, we snuck this one out already, but I'm talking about it now because we never really said how MUCH of an improvement it was.)</li><li>There is a new Tradeskill quest for Halas. It snuck out and is not ready for testing. Feel free to look at it, but it has placeholder art and may not be completable. You have been warned. (We'll announce when it's ready to test.)</li></ol>Okay, so here's the list of skill progression changes (courtesy of Xelgad):All Scouts:<ul><li><div>Evade 1 was removed from the Auto-Grant list because you do not need a detaunt at level 6.</div></li></ul> Predators:<ul><li><div>Murderous Design 1 and Primal Reflexes 1 were removed from the Auto-Grant list because you do not need a hate transfer or reduction at level 11.</div></li><li><div>Villainy and Hunter’s Instinct were lowered to 11 to fill the gap caused by removing the hate spells. This also improves their soloability at lower levels.</div></li><li><div>Hilt Strike was added to level 6. Hilt Strike is a second stun for predators and will help them solo and get behind the enemy to do back/stealth attacks.</div></li></ul> Rogues:<ul><li><div>Mug and Double-Cross were lowered to 6 to smooth out progression.</div></li></ul> Bards:<ul><li><div>Tarven’s Crippling Crescendo and Vexing Verses were lowered to 6 to smooth out progression.</div></li></ul> All Fighters:<ul><li><div>Intercept 1 was removed from the auto-grant list because you do not need an Intercept spell (absorbs damage for someone else) at level 6. You will be soloing.</div></li></ul> Warriors:<ul><li><div>Mock 1 and 2, Provoke 1 and 2, Enrage 1 and Shout 1 were removed from the auto-grant list as you do not need taunts before level 15. The odds of grouping before then are pretty low.</div></li><li><div>Shield Bash (now Bash) and Body Check no longer require a shield. This lets players get an extra damage ability while they are dual wielding weapons or using a two hander.</div></li><li><div>Wall of Rage and Hunker Down no longer snare the warrior, allowing them to move while their defensive buff is active. This helps them while soloing and grouping at all levels.</div></li><li><div>Reckless Aide and Stand Firm were raised to 21 to smooth out progression and because they are a bit more complex to use than the other spells gained.</div></li><li><div>Destructive Rage and Battle Tactics were lowered to 18 to smooth out progression.</div></li><li><div>New versions of Body Check and Raging Blow were added to levels 2 and 3 to help Berserker soloing at the start and match the guardian skill progression.</div></li><li><div>Bash II, Body Check II were lowered to 8 to smooth out progression and increase soloing at lower levels.</div></li><li><div>Overpower II and Rupture II were lowered to 6 to smooth out progression and increase soloing at lower levels.</div></li><li><div>Both offensive stances were lowered to the same level as the defensive stances, as it is more useful to use offensive at low levels.</div></li></ul> Crusaders:<ul><li><div>Clarion 1 and 2 were removed from Paladins as they do not need taunts before level 15.</div></li><li><div>Hateful Slam and Heroic Dash no longer require a shield or a symbol to be able to use them.</div></li><li><div>Devious Evasion and Resolute Faith were raised to 21 as they are a bit more complex than the other spells gained.</div></li><li><div>Unholy Strength and Crusade were lowered to 18 to smooth out progression.</div></li><li><div>Both offensive stances were lowered to the same level as the defensive stances.</div></li></ul> Brawlers:<ul><li><div>Silent Threat I and 2, Slurred Insult I and II, Challenge and Abuse were removed from the auto-grant list because they do not need taunts before level 15.</div></li><li><div>Tranquil Vision and Shrug Off were raised to 21 as these are complex spells not needed unless grouping.</div></li><li><div>Both offensive stances were lowered to match the defensive stances.</div></li></ul> All Priests:<ul><li><div>Summon Food and Water was removed from the Auto-Grant list as the effects were extremely weak. It was replaced with…</div></li><li><div>Wrath, added at level 6, which is a scaling damage attack that increases with the level of the priest.</div></li></ul> Clerics:<ul><li><div>Soothe was moved up to level 30. Soothe is a bit complicated to use correctly and isn’t needed at very low levels.</div></li></ul> All Mages:<ul><li><div>Dispel Magic is now Absorb Magic and now also drains some power from the target and returns it to the caster. This makes the spell more desired to use throughout all the level ranges and on all targets, rather than a very, very few amount.</div></li><li><div>Bind Sight is no longer automatically granted and is now a fun spell you can buy cheaply from a merchant. This spell had no benefit to be used in gameplay, it was only used for fun.</div></li></ul> Sorcerers:<ul><li><div>Ice Spears and Vacuum Field are gained at level 4. This increases the power of the spells dramatically and smoothes out the spell progression at low levels.</div></li><li><div>Vital Transfer and Void Contract now cost less health below level 40, when they’re more difficult to use.</div></li><li><div>Nullify and Cease were not needed at level 10 so they were removed from the auto-grant list. They are detaunts like Evade.</div></li></ul> Enchanters:<ul><li><div>Shift Mana and Extract Mana now require less health to cast below level 40.</div></li><li><div>Mesmerize and Entrance are no longer granted at level 1. They’ll get the Mesmerize spells a little later when they’re easier to use and understand, about level 10.</div></li></ul> Summoners:<ul><li><div>Aqueous Stone is now just a spell that gives water breathing, rather than one that gives you a water breathing item that you need to activate to get water breathing.</div></li><li><div>Vampire Bats has had a new, level 10 version added to make soloing easier with an extra damage spell.</div></li></ul>

Sapphy

06-24-2010, 05:41 PM

Great ideas for new character development! I like what you did with dispel magic too

Brildean

06-24-2010, 05:43 PM

Koolio.. Now to get class balancing straigtened out or atleast semi-fair and fun. And we'll have an A+++ for influx of new players.

Vortexelemental

06-24-2010, 05:45 PM

Cool? How so?This is garbage.Do not make it impossible to group before 20.You might as well just remove levels 1-20 while you are at it and have people start at 20.

Skeez1e

06-24-2010, 05:46 PM

<div>Dispel Magic is now Absorb Magic and now also drains some power from the target and returns it to the caster. This makes the spell more desired to use throughout all the level ranges and on all targets, rather than a very, very few amount.</div><div></div><div>I don't use dispel magic often but the times it is used is very useful (dispelling the pets off those nasty bushes in the Conservatory is the one that comes to mind first) so I appreciate the word 'also' in that sentence.</div><div></div><div>The addition of wrath was a nice surprise.</div><div></div><div>Soothe is one that's in my top 10 list of faves; not sure I agree with the move to level 30 - I don't know how many new players would be coming still from EQ1 but suspect if there were any they'd find a lot of uses for it before level 30. I know I did.</div>

Badmotorfinger

06-24-2010, 05:49 PM

So no fix for broken Dumbfire Pets?... lame

Scampy

06-24-2010, 05:53 PM

May i ask the reason why test copy has been down for 3 hours ? and like the fact that spells are getting given to lower lvlsand that now most classes are getting somthing new good ideas and work guys

Wilderbeast25

06-24-2010, 05:54 PM

A lot of this doesn't make any sense to me. I understand what some of these things may not be "needed" at the lowest levels but all you have done is make it so you have even more people that are clueless about machanics as they level up.Also you take away two very popular starting areas for vets to funnal us through the "newer" areas so we will mix with new players and then you take away group machanics?? Why would I be solo at 6? I MAY be solo, but the most recent toon I level'd up? I was grouped at lvl 6 and having fun with some newbies. You know what they say about assuming right?As this: "Aqueous Stone is now just a spell that gives water breathing, rather than one that gives you a water breathing item that you need to activate to get water breathing." As a person with a summoner. I want my stone not a spell. I want to be able to use my water breathing item when I NEED IT or my other group members NEED IT. I can hand them out and when they want they can use it. If it is a spell it may be gone by the we need it. This wasn't really thought through.I'm sure I'll have a lot more thoughts as I really go through this, but I don't see much good here. Just watered down so you have more clueless players that just frustrate your existing playerbase more.

Vortexelemental

06-24-2010, 05:54 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>All Scouts:<ul><li><div>Evade 1 was removed from the Auto-Grant list because you do not need a detaunt at level 6.</div></li><li>Kind of true but should still be gained by 10.</li></ul> Predators:<ul><li><div>Murderous Design 1 and Primal Reflexes 1 were removed from the Auto-Grant list because you do not need a hate transfer or reduction at level 11.</div></li><li>I would not agree.</li><li><div>Villainy and Hunter’s Instinct were lowered to 11 to fill the gap caused by removing the hate spells. This also improves their soloability at lower levels.</div></li><li><div>Hilt Strike was added to level 6. Hilt Strike is a second stun for predators and will help them solo and get behind the enemy to do back/stealth attacks.</div></li><li>Good.</li></ul> Rogues:<ul><li><div>Mug and Double-Cross were lowered to 6 to smooth out progression.</div></li></ul> Bards:<ul><li><div>Tarven’s Crippling Crescendo and Vexing Verses were lowered to 6 to smooth out progression.</div></li></ul> All Fighters:<ul><li><div>Intercept 1 was removed from the auto-grant list because you do not need an Intercept spell (absorbs damage for someone else) at level 6. You will be soloing.</div></li><li>Excuse me? I will? Good to know that you are making my decisions for me =)</li></ul> Warriors:<ul><li><div>Mock 1 and 2, Provoke 1 and 2, Enrage 1 and Shout 1 were removed from the auto-grant list as you do not need taunts before level 15. The odds of grouping before then are pretty low.</div></li><li>Odds? So what happens when those odds are in my favor and I catch a group with lowbies? They can't tank?</li><li><div>Shield Bash (now Bash) and Body Check no longer require a shield. This lets players get an extra damage ability while they are dual wielding weapons or using a two hander.</div></li><li>As it should have been.</li><li><div>Wall of Rage and Hunker Down no longer snare the warrior, allowing them to move while their defensive buff is active. This helps them while soloing and grouping at all levels.</div></li><li>Make sure you change the AA.</li><li><div>Reckless Aide and Stand Firm were raised to 21 to smooth out progression and because they are a bit more complex to use than the other spells gained.</div></li><li>How do you define complex when nothing in game explains any combat mechanic whatsoever?</li><li><div>Destructive Rage and Battle Tactics were lowered to 18 to smooth out progression.</div></li><li><div>New versions of Body Check and Raging Blow were added to levels 2 and 3 to help Berserker soloing at the start and match the guardian skill progression.</div></li><li><div>Bash II, Body Check II were lowered to 8 to smooth out progression and increase soloing at lower levels.</div></li><li><div>Overpower II and Rupture II were lowered to 6 to smooth out progression and increase soloing at lower levels.</div></li><li><div>Both offensive stances were lowered to the same level as the defensive stances, as it is more useful to use offensive at low levels.</div></li><li>Cool.</li></ul> Crusaders:<ul><li><div>Clarion 1 and 2 were removed from Paladins as they do not need taunts before level 15.</div></li><li>Again, says who?</li><li><div>Hateful Slam and Heroic Dash no longer require a shield or a symbol to be able to use them.</div></li><li>As it should have been.</li><li><div>Devious Evasion and Resolute Faith were raised to 21 as they are a bit more complex than the other spells gained.</div></li><li>See above.</li><li><div>Unholy Strength and Crusade were lowered to 18 to smooth out progression.</div></li><li><div>Both offensive stances were lowered to the same level as the defensive stances.</div></li><li>Cool</li></ul> Brawlers:<ul><li><div>Silent Threat I and 2, Slurred Insult I and II, Challenge and Abuse were removed from the auto-grant list because they do not need taunts before level 15.</div></li><li>Again, Says who?</li><li><div>Tranquil Vision and Shrug Off were raised to 21 as these are complex spells not needed unless grouping.</div></li><li>Above...</li><li><div>Both offensive stances were lowered to match the defensive stances.</div></li></ul> All Priests:<ul><li><div>Summon Food and Water was removed from the Auto-Grant list as the effects were extremely weak. It was replaced with…</div></li><li><div>Wrath, added at level 6, which is a scaling damage attack that increases with the level of the priest.</div></li><li>Good replacement.</li></ul> Clerics:<ul><li><div>Soothe was moved up to level 30. Soothe is a bit complicated to use correctly and isn’t needed at very low levels.</div></li><li>Soothe is an incredibly useful and powerful skill the lower level you get it. It becomes less needed as you level.</li></ul> All Mages:<ul><li><div>Dispel Magic is now Absorb Magic and now also drains some power from the target and returns it to the caster. This makes the spell more desired to use throughout all the level ranges and on all targets, rather than a very, very few amount.</div></li><li>Awesome.</li><li><div>Bind Sight is no longer automatically granted and is now a fun spell you can buy cheaply from a merchant. This spell had no benefit to be used in gameplay, it was only used for fun.</div></li><li>I'm not sure the point of removing Bind Sight just to put it on the merchant... But..alright?</li></ul> Sorcerers:<ul><li><div>Ice Spears and Vacuum Field are gained at level 4. This increases the power of the spells dramatically and smoothes out the spell progression at low levels.</div></li><li><div>Vital Transfer and Void Contract now cost less health below level 40, when they’re more difficult to use.</div></li><li><div>Nullify and Cease were not needed at level 10 so they were removed from the auto-grant list. They are detaunts like Evade.</div></li><li>Good to know we aren't expected to ever group.</li></ul> Enchanters:<ul><li><div>Shift Mana and Extract Mana now require less health to cast below level 40.</div></li><li><div>Mesmerize and Entrance are no longer granted at level 1. They’ll get the Mesmerize spells a little later when they’re easier to use and understand, about level 10.</div></li><li>So...You're saying enchanters now start off with a single skill? Really think this one over considering it's a class specific spell they need to learn how to use in the first place.</li></ul> Summoners:<ul><li><div>Aqueous Stone is now just a spell that gives water breathing, rather than one that gives you a water breathing item that you need to activate to get water breathing.</div></li><li>The stones were more convenient with being able to let someone carry it around and use it later but this really wasn't something I think any summoner gave much thought to.</li><li><div>Vampire Bats has had a new, level 10 version added to make soloing easier with an extra damage spell.</div></li><li>Vampire Bats is probably one of the summoners worst spells so I'm not sure why that makes sense.. but gee thanks.</li></ul></blockquote>This is not a good idea. At all.

Nuhus

06-24-2010, 05:57 PM

Please fix this useless spell line while you are at it <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Crystallize_Soul" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Crystallize_Soul</a>

Ranja

06-24-2010, 06:00 PM

When are we going to see class balance issues being addressed. All of this stuff is completely unnecessary. Why are you making decisions for your playerbase? You are taking away options which is always a bad thing and leaving obvious glaring oversights in class balance un-touched.Stop everything and balance your [Removed for Content] classes!

Vortexelemental

06-24-2010, 06:05 PM

Gungo

06-24-2010, 06:05 PM

<cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please fix this useless spell line while you are at it <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Crystallize_Soul" target="_blank">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Crystallize_Soul</a></blockquote>A cure castable while stunned with a group heal is hardly useless, Although I would prefer if this was an ability that summons an item rather then a random killshot proc.

Deson

06-24-2010, 06:09 PM

I'll post a more detailed reason why so much of this is a really bad idea later but for the early jump this looks like a disaster in the making. There are good aspects like dispel magic but your decisions on what people should and shoudn't be doing are heavy handed and uneccesary.

Firecracker

06-24-2010, 06:17 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>Enchanters:<ul><li><div>Mesmerize and Entrance are no longer granted at level 1. They’ll get the Mesmerize spells a little later when they’re easier to use and understand, about level 10. Why? This is not needed and needs to be left as is. If anything change how much they are resisted if you ask me.</div></li></ul> Summoners:<ul><li><div>Aqueous Stone is now just a spell that gives water breathing, rather than one that gives you a water breathing item that you need to activate to get water breathing.</div></li><li><div>Vampire Bats has had a new, level 10 version added to make soloing easier with an extra damage spell. </div></li><li><div>Dumb Fire pets now have amunity to aoe damage- for they are useless for hardly no summoners are using these spells anymore due to how fast they die.</div></li></ul></blockquote>Wrote in different color my feedback.

Gungo

06-24-2010, 06:17 PM

The fact SOE removed AUTO GRANTED apprentice spells does not mean they REMOVED the spells entirely. Log onto test and seeEveryone still has the spells.Level 1-20 is still 100% smart loot for adepts and masters. You can still buy adept/expertmaster version of these spells on the broker. These spells still exist they are just no longer AUTOGRANTED apprentice spells.Apparently alot of people do NOT understand this.

Rijacki

06-24-2010, 06:18 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote> All Fighters:<ul><li><div>Intercept 1 was removed from the auto-grant list because you do not need an Intercept spell (absorbs damage for someone else) at level 6. You will be soloing.</div></li></ul> Warriors:<ul><li><div>Mock 1 and 2, Provoke 1 and 2, Enrage 1 and Shout 1 were removed from the auto-grant list as you do not need taunts before level 15. The odds of grouping before then are pretty low.</div></li></ul></blockquote>I'm not trying to nit-pick, but the first allegation is a bit troubling to me. Since the second statement has room for the possibility of grouping, I can't help but wonder if there will be some sort of prohibition to grouping before a certain level.But, I am hoping both statements (and others similar throughout) were supposed to be about the same, reflecting that -most- do solo until the 20s or 30s even if they group later.I'll admit that I find it kind of sad, though, that in response to the many complaints about getting to high levels without ever learning how to group (or having many opportunities to do so) and the lack of much encouragement to group in the lower levels is a shift to make soloing in the lower levels even more desired (or possibly required based on the first statement).

Seomon

06-24-2010, 06:18 PM

Clarion is needed to finish a HO, so it should not be removed. Plus, I spent money and time getting all my masters, don't take them away. Also, a lot of people start new characters and level them together. Don't take taunts away!

Vortexelemental

06-24-2010, 06:19 PM

So can we expect to see all 1-20 herioc content downtiered to solo too then?So I should just delete my level locked toons and my second account I just subbed specifically to level with my level locked toons?Because now my playstyle will be hindered by these changes?Really, whose idea was this that made any sense at all?If you are still going to let us recieve the spells but not automatically and make us buy them or make them... what's the point?

TheGeneral

06-24-2010, 06:21 PM

Does anyone know how to give feedback without it being full of spit and fire? .. .ok a few people do, but yeesh.

Gungo

06-24-2010, 06:22 PM

<cite>Seomon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Clarion is needed to finish a HO, so it should not be removed. Plus, I spent money and time getting all my masters, don't take them away. Also, a lot of people start new characters and level them together. Don't take taunts away!</blockquote>The fact SOE removed AUTO GRANTED apprentice spells does not mean they REMOVED the spells entirely. Log onto test and seeEveryone still has the spells.Level 1-20 is still 100% smart loot for adepts and masters. You can still buy adept/expertmaster version of these spells on the broker. These spells still exist they are just no longer AUTOGRANTED apprentice spells.Apparently alot of people do NOT understand this.

Nevao

06-24-2010, 06:22 PM

While I am a little leary of the removal of hate abilities before 15 (if I'm reading correctly) I can understand the thought process if you're not expecting people to group before they leave the introductory zones. That said are there any plans to adjust Wailing Caves and Blackborrow (the most prominent of the "low" level zones)? While most of entrace type mobs are solo if you want people to start grouping at 15 they are going to most likely blow through the opening content reducing the usefulness of those zones should people group at the new "appropriate" levels (i.e. when classes start getting hate control tools).

Dethdlr

06-24-2010, 06:24 PM

I recently started playing a brand new coercer alt so the new character experience is fresh in my mind. It's come a long way and I commend the efforts to take it even further. It looks like some of these changes are intended to keep you from spending as much time fiddling with your hotbars. As part of that effort I'd like to suggest a new checkbox in the options that is turned on by default for new characters:Auto-Upgrade Apprentice Spells/CAs on HotbarsYou start a new character and get a few spells/CAs. Several levels later, you get upgrades to those spells/CAs. You now stop what you're doing to remove the old ones from your hotbars and replace them with the new ones. No, it doesn't take long but it still pulls you out of the playing experience and forces you to fiddle with your hotbars every level. It would be much better if the upgrades just replaced the exisiting spell/CA icons if you still have the Apprentice version on your hotbars. If you upgraded it to Adept, Journeyman, etc. then add it to your hotbar just like it does today. But if it's obviously an upgrade, just replace it. For those that don't want them automatically replaced, turn off the option. For new players though, they would only have to deal with NEW spells/CAs and where to put the icons instead of upgrades to existing ones.Besides, I'm sure Rothgar or someone else there would love the challenge of coding this. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Vortexelemental

06-24-2010, 06:24 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seomon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Clarion is needed to finish a HO, so it should not be removed. Plus, I spent money and time getting all my masters, don't take them away. Also, a lot of people start new characters and level them together. Don't take taunts away!</blockquote>The fact SOE removed AUTO GRANTED apprentice spells does not mean they REMOVED the spells entirely. Log onto test and seeEveryone still has the spells.Level 1-20 is still 100% smart loot for adepts and masters. You can still buy adept/expertmaster version of these spells on the broker. These spells still exist they are just no longer AUTOGRANTED apprentice spells.Apparently alot of people do NOT understand this.</blockquote>You don't see the hypocrisy in this? Really?We won't auto give you this spell, but due to smart-loot you will likely find it and scribe it and be more confused on why you didn't auto-recieve it like the rest of your spells.

Gungo

06-24-2010, 06:25 PM

<cite>Vortexelemental@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you are still going to let us recieve the spells but not automatically and make us buy them or make them... what's the point?</blockquote>Level 1-20 is mostly 100% smart loot on adepts/masters.FurthermoreIf you read the intial post the idea behind these changes is to remove complicated abilites or mechanics from bombarding new players. Apparently the devs beleive these abilites confuse new players, make the new player experience overly complicated, and are unneccesary. So they are no longer AUTOGRANTING these specific apprentice spells.

Purr

06-24-2010, 06:26 PM

Some good stuff, but I don't agree with 3 things:Fighters don't NEED taunts at level x - Sorry, [Removed for Content]? A fighter NEEDs to get used to using his/her taunts - ALWAYS. if you don't get it down in early age you will have a hard time picking up on it later on when it's the one thing that stands between the angry mob and your tissue dressed dpsers.Soothe: Same here: Learn it's appropriate use early or don't learn it. It's one of the very very useful and often overlooked things.Mez: It's the supposedly class defining ability of Chanters. It's perfect at this low level to learn how to divide and conquer a yellow+ encounter by yourself. You better learn it before you ever start grouping.That is, of course, should you Dev's ever come up with anything lvl 60+ that actually requires or even encourages mez-ing. ATM there is nothing. [Off-topic]: Considering the role Enchanters play atm, please consider adding the group-wide mana-flow to the Illusionist Mythical.Overall I see more push towards soloing. While I agree that at that low level it's most likely what most players will do, I don't like the direction this is going. Please do not discourage grouping any more than where we already are in that regard. If players don't learn grouping early on they make lousy group-mates later on and will in return stay away from grouping and there goes the cycle. Soloing, duo/trio, grouping - all should be valid options to level up. For that a lot of quests will need work so that a group can finish them without requiring each groupmember getting his/her own items/parts/nodes/whatevers that make grouping such quests a huge pita.In any case: Thanks, Smokejumper, for the post that is sure more clear than the patch notes were.Thanks for reading.Purr~

Deson

06-24-2010, 06:26 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seomon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Clarion is needed to finish a HO, so it should not be removed. Plus, I spent money and time getting all my masters, don't take them away. Also, a lot of people start new characters and level them together. Don't take taunts away!</blockquote>The fact SOE removed AUTO GRANTED apprentice spells does not mean they REMOVED the spells entirely. Log onto test and seeEveryone still has the spells.Level 1-20 is still 100% smart loot for adepts and masters. You can still buy adept/expertmaster version of these spells on the broker. These spells still exist they are just no longer AUTOGRANTED apprentice spells.Apparently alot of people do NOT understand this.</blockquote>Distinction without much difference. If they stilll exist but aren't auto granted and they may still have some use, how would the newer players even know they exist? For players genuinely looking for them, it'll be that much extra work to acquire them that really shouldnt have to be done.

Nevynmysti

06-24-2010, 06:28 PM

My problem with no expected grouping untill lvl 15 is if a friend wants to join the game. We both make new characters so I can help them understand and get through the game but we have no spells/ combat arts to work as a group or help each other as a group during the early levels. I can see that being a turn off for my friend who is going to play this game to hang out with me.Or for example, when my husband and I created new characters with Halas. We grouped up to enjoy the content together. Hope these are not being forgotten....

Wilderbeast25

06-24-2010, 06:28 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seomon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Clarion is needed to finish a HO, so it should not be removed. Plus, I spent money and time getting all my masters, don't take them away. Also, a lot of people start new characters and level them together. Don't take taunts away!</blockquote>The fact SOE removed AUTO GRANTED apprentice spells does not mean they REMOVED the spells entirely. Log onto test and seeEveryone still has the spells.Level 1-20 is still 100% smart loot for adepts and masters. You can still buy adept/expertmaster version of these spells on the broker. These spells still exist they are just no longer AUTOGRANTED apprentice spells.Apparently alot of people do NOT understand this.</blockquote>How does this make sense? I completely understand what you are saying, but to me that just makes is more confusing. Now people have to go buy these spells if they want them and who is going to tell them that they are available? Didn't we already go through this with the 51+ spells? That it didn't make sense not to give them out and it just caused confusion when you didn't? How many clueless people didn't bother to upgrade or missed spells that they should have had but didn't see them on the broker so just assumed they had what they needed.

Valdaglerion

06-24-2010, 06:29 PM

This was also posted in testing feedback but wanted to add it to this thread since our new sr prod posted this thread in that one.-----------------------------------It really seems there is an odd set of priorities being set for dev cycles right now focused on retooling mechanics that are not broken for low level content rather than working on mechanics that are broken and or creating new content at the higher levels where a majority of the subscriber base is playing these days.These spell changes dont seem to make sense to me for the following reasons from my perspective:<ol><li>These mechanics are not broken, why are we spending dev cycles reworking them?</li><li>Vets are less and less help to new players because of all the changes to the lower levels, we can only tell them how it was, not necessarily how it is now (unless you are an altoholic)</li><li>All spells were changed to be auto given because so many were overlooked which was a bad experience to players, now we are going back to that why?</li><li>Saying these things arent needed because you wont be grouping at lower levels seems very presumptious. On the noob isles you had to group to kill the final named, they were level 8^^^ (unless of course you were a twinked toon). Are you intending to remove all the heroic content from 1-25 at this point?</li></ol><div>Please stop removing content from the game.</div><div>------------------------------------</div><div></div><div>It would seem that if you feel your new players are being overwhelmed by spells now they seemingly dont need then perhaps better explanations are in order since they WILL NEED them later in the game. Hiding them and making them go search for them later may only add to the confusion. You are only delaying the inevitable with this implementation of a "fix".</div><div></div><div></div><div></div>

Jonaroth

06-24-2010, 06:31 PM

wow, this sounds great! good job devs!

Malacha

06-24-2010, 06:32 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact SOE removed AUTO GRANTED apprentice spells does not mean they REMOVED the spells entirely. Log onto test and seeEveryone still has the spells.Level 1-20 is still 100% smart loot for adepts and masters. You can still buy adept/expertmaster version of these spells on the broker. These spells still exist they are just no longer AUTOGRANTED apprentice spells.Apparently alot of people do NOT understand this.</blockquote>You're wrong... some of them were removed from auto-grant, but clearly from what he said, some were removed completely.

Gungo

06-24-2010, 06:32 PM

<cite>Vortexelemental@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seomon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Clarion is needed to finish a HO, so it should not be removed. Plus, I spent money and time getting all my masters, don't take them away. Also, a lot of people start new characters and level them together. Don't take taunts away!</blockquote>The fact SOE removed AUTO GRANTED apprentice spells does not mean they REMOVED the spells entirely. Log onto test and seeEveryone still has the spells.Level 1-20 is still 100% smart loot for adepts and masters. You can still buy adept/expertmaster version of these spells on the broker. These spells still exist they are just no longer AUTOGRANTED apprentice spells.Apparently alot of people do NOT understand this.</blockquote>You don't see the hypocrisy in this? Really?We won't auto give you this spell, but due to smart-loot you will likely find it and scribe it and be more confused on why you didn't auto-recieve it like the rest of your spells.</blockquote>I see both sides and I think the current implementation is halfarsed. Although until they post ALL the changes I am withholding feedback. Intercepts and avoid other buffs are complicated mechanic and abilites that confuse even max level players. Taunts are mostly surperflous before level 15.The fact new players will probably receive these spells anyway while leveling up will end up confusing them anyway and making them ask more questions later. Every LINE of spells should autogrant the first version apprentice of the spell regardless of tier (including ancient teachings). So new players would not have to go digging through forums to find what spells they are missing.These spells should all follow a 10 level progression path. So that players will know when to upgrade a spell. (If i get metoer punch at level 1, I should get metoer punch II at level 11).

Vortexelemental

06-24-2010, 06:34 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vortexelemental@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seomon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Clarion is needed to finish a HO, so it should not be removed. Plus, I spent money and time getting all my masters, don't take them away. Also, a lot of people start new characters and level them together. Don't take taunts away!</blockquote>The fact SOE removed AUTO GRANTED apprentice spells does not mean they REMOVED the spells entirely. Log onto test and seeEveryone still has the spells.Level 1-20 is still 100% smart loot for adepts and masters. You can still buy adept/expertmaster version of these spells on the broker. These spells still exist they are just no longer AUTOGRANTED apprentice spells.Apparently alot of people do NOT understand this.</blockquote>You don't see the hypocrisy in this? Really?We won't auto give you this spell, but due to smart-loot you will likely find it and scribe it and be more confused on why you didn't auto-recieve it like the rest of your spells.</blockquote>I see both sides and I think the current implementation is halfarsed. Although until they post ALL the changes I am withholding feedback. Intercepts and avoid other buffs are complicated mechanic and abilites that confuse even max level players. Taunts are mostly surperflous before level 15.The fact new players will probably receive these spells anyway while leveling up will end up confusing them anyway and making them ask more questions later. Every LINE of spells should autogrant the first version apprentice of the spell regardless of tier (including ancient teachings). So new players would not have to go digging through forums to find what spells they are missing.These spells should all follow a 10 level progression path. So that players will know when to upgrade a spell. (If i get metoer punch at level 1, I should get metoer punch II at level 11).</blockquote>Then what are we arguing about o.o?

Gungo

06-24-2010, 06:35 PM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact SOE removed AUTO GRANTED apprentice spells does not mean they REMOVED the spells entirely. Log onto test and seeEveryone still has the spells.Level 1-20 is still 100% smart loot for adepts and masters. You can still buy adept/expertmaster version of these spells on the broker. These spells still exist they are just no longer AUTOGRANTED apprentice spells.Apparently alot of people do NOT understand this.</blockquote>You're wrong... some of them were removed from auto-grant, but clearly from what he said, some were removed completely.</blockquote>READ the POST. The majority listed as REMOVED from autogrant list were only REMOVED from auto grant list. There were some moved to a different level. I also logged onto TEST and confirmed this on 3 different tank types. The ONLY spell removed afaik is summon food/drink.

Nuhus

06-24-2010, 06:37 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please fix this useless spell line while you are at it <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Crystallize_Soul" target="_blank">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Crystallize_Soul</a></blockquote>A cure castable while stunned with a group heal is hardly useless, Although I would prefer if this was an ability that summons an item rather then a random killshot proc.</blockquote>This would be true if anyone ever bothered to use it.

Gungo

06-24-2010, 06:38 PM

<cite>Vortexelemental@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see both sides and I think the current implementation is halfarsed. Although until they post ALL the changes I am withholding feedback. Intercepts and avoid other buffs are complicated mechanic and abilites that confuse even max level players. Taunts are mostly surperflous before level 15.The fact new players will probably receive these spells anyway while leveling up will end up confusing them anyway and making them ask more questions later. Every LINE of spells should autogrant the first version apprentice of the spell regardless of tier (including ancient teachings). So new players would not have to go digging through forums to find what spells they are missing.These spells should all follow a 10 level progression path. So that players will know when to upgrade a spell. (If i get metoer punch at level 1, I should get metoer punch II at level 11).</blockquote>Then what are we arguing about o.o?</blockquote>No right now the only part on test is the fact they moved some spells to different levels, gave some new spells to help soloing, and removed a few group based spells from auto granting apprentice versions. This was done to solve this issue "Intercepts and avoid other buffs are complicated mechanic and abilites that confuse even max level players. Taunts are mostly surperflous before level 15."These issues are not being addressed.Every LINE of spells should autogrant an apprentice version of the spell regardless of tier (including ancient teachings). So new players would not have to go digging through forums to find what spells they are missing.These spells should all follow a 10 level progression path. So that players will know when to upgrade a spell. (If i get metoer punch at level 1, I should get metoer punch II at level 11).

Gungo

06-24-2010, 06:40 PM

<cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please fix this useless spell line while you are at it <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Crystallize_Soul" target="_blank">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Crystallize_Soul</a></blockquote>A cure castable while stunned with a group heal is hardly useless, Although I would prefer if this was an ability that summons an item rather then a random killshot proc.</blockquote>This would be true if anyone ever bothered to use it.</blockquote>I use it on raids all the time, because its the ONLY castable cure while stunned most players have. But like i said it would be better if it was an out of combat castable item. At least then everyone in group would have 1 before every pull.

Malacha

06-24-2010, 06:42 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact SOE removed AUTO GRANTED apprentice spells does not mean they REMOVED the spells entirely. Log onto test and seeEveryone still has the spells.Level 1-20 is still 100% smart loot for adepts and masters. You can still buy adept/expertmaster version of these spells on the broker. These spells still exist they are just no longer AUTOGRANTED apprentice spells.Apparently alot of people do NOT understand this.</blockquote>You're wrong... some of them were removed from auto-grant, but clearly from what he said, some were removed completely.</blockquote>READ the POST. The majority listed as REMOVED from autogrant list were only REMOVED from auto grant list. There were some moved to a different level. I also logged onto TEST and confirmed.</blockquote>I did read the post. Did you?<div><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crusaders:<ul><li><div>Clarion 1 and 2 were removed from Paladins as they do not need taunts before level 15.</div><div>THEY WERE REMOVED</div></li></ul>Clerics:<ul><li><div>Soothe was moved up to level 30. Soothe is a bit complicated to use correctly and isn’t needed at very low levels.</div><div>While not "removed" they were pushed up to a much higher level, thus removing them from early levels.</div></li></ul>Enchanters:<ul><li><div>Mesmerize and Entrance are no longer granted at level 1. They’ll get the Mesmerize spells a little later when they’re easier to use and understand, about level 10.</div><div>REMOVED! Tho I don't know how 10 levels is going to suddenly grant someone the insight required to mez...</div><div></div></li></ul></blockquote></div>

Nuhus

06-24-2010, 06:45 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I use it on raids all the time, because its the ONLY castable cure while stunned most players have. But like i said it would be better if it was an out of combat castable item. At least then everyone in group would have 1 before every pull.</blockquote>Agreed, it would likely see more use then. Either way something with it should be changed so it is more realistic to use.

Gungo

06-24-2010, 06:48 PM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact SOE removed AUTO GRANTED apprentice spells does not mean they REMOVED the spells entirely. Log onto test and seeEveryone still has the spells.Level 1-20 is still 100% smart loot for adepts and masters. You can still buy adept/expertmaster version of these spells on the broker. These spells still exist they are just no longer AUTOGRANTED apprentice spells.Apparently alot of people do NOT understand this.</blockquote>You're wrong... some of them were removed from auto-grant, but clearly from what he said, some were removed completely.</blockquote>READ the POST. The majority listed as REMOVED from autogrant list were only REMOVED from auto grant list. There were some moved to a different level. I also logged onto TEST and confirmed.</blockquote>I did read the post. Did you?<div><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crusaders:<ul><li><div>Clarion 1 and 2 were removed from Paladins as they do not need taunts before level 15.</div><div>THEY WERE REMOVED</div></li></ul>Clerics:<ul><li><div>Soothe was moved up to level 30. Soothe is a bit complicated to use correctly and isn’t needed at very low levels.</div><div>While not "removed" they were pushed up to a much higher level, thus removing them from early levels.</div></li></ul>Enchanters:<ul><li><div>Mesmerize and Entrance are no longer granted at level 1. They’ll get the Mesmerize spells a little later when they’re easier to use and understand, about level 10.</div><div>REMOVED! Tho I don't know how 10 levels is going to suddenly grant someone the insight required to mez...</div><div></div></li></ul></blockquote></div></blockquote>I did read it and the only part you posted that was REMOVED was clarion 1/2. Which in fact was NOT removed it is no longer AUTOGRANTED.

Tallhart

06-24-2010, 06:50 PM

For those who have been with the game 'since the beginning', remember the old days of choosing an archetype to start, then a class at level 10, and a sub-class at level 20? So for example you'd start as say a Fighter, become a Crusader at 10, and a Paladin at 20? The idea being that you'd be slowly introduced to your class (and sub-class) abilities over time. I always thought that was really neat in concept. In practice it didn't work out all that well as the progression wasn't all that smooth. You didn't just get new versions of Fighter stuff with new tweaks when you became a Crusader ... some stuff went away, and some new stuff was added. And the same when you became a Paladin. I still kinda liked it, but some people felt like they were 'wasting' 10 levels learning things that wouldn't apply later. Someone at SOE decided that you should just start as a level 1 Paladin, so you could start learning your class from day one. Most people thought that worked out better, even though it got rid of the cool specialization mechanic (mostly, there's still a bunch of commonality among sub-classes within the same class ... shared AAs, etc.), as you got to work with your tools from early on.This seems like a regression to the old days, without the cool specialization concept. I mean at least back in the beginning Tanks got a taunt before level 15! I mean what's more class defining for the Fighter classes than the taunt?As most of the complaints have already mentioned, I think these changes really hurt people who want to start grouping early.

Brook

06-24-2010, 06:52 PM

I agree with some of the other posters that some of this is not a good idea, but at the same time I want to play around with it a bit to see how well it fits.I would rather you guys focus on things like making a 2hander a viable weapon and fixing the lag issues that seemed to start around the time BG's were introduced and other things that your customers have been asking for. You released Shader 3.0 and to be quite honest it looks like garbage on my screen and is an unacceptable performance hit when combined with all the other unoptimized changes going into the game. I respect the time Imago put into this and think he did a fabulous job getting shadows working, but shader 3.0 has failed to impress me yet.It doesn't matter if someone has a worthless spell at level 6 if they are fighting with lag issues, handing everything to everyone to get them started wont keep a new customer, nor will releasing things like Warfields in the condition you did.I am still struggling to figure out what your definition of cool is when playing it for the first time? I am sure you have heard it before but I do believe it is important enough to stress again since you seem to fail to grasp one simple thing."Taking options from your players is NEVER a good thing"Forcing ME into a style of gameplay that YOU think is best after the game has been out this long and revamping things to make them easier for people will not hold subs for long.

Neiloch

06-24-2010, 07:05 PM

wow most of you seem completely incapable of looking at this for true newbies who aren't coming in with some already playing friend (which are the majority of newbie players btw). The IDEA, is since the lower levels go so fast now, they needed to ease up on how many new things completely new players have to deal with. When they went slower the way abilities were given out was fine, but now its much faster. they also have the metrics that show a large majority of these newbie players solo. Someone grouping as it is now before 20 is rare. Its just supposed to make the whole thing less overwhelming, not getting so much at once. Think of it this way, a newbie coming into EQ2 right now is like if you played a very unfamiliar class in EQ2 at level 90 with tons of AA points. You didn't level them up and their nothing like the other classes you have played. You don't know what half your buttons do and not entirely sure how the class works.

Armawk

06-24-2010, 07:06 PM

While for the most part I dont see the point, and think it is ham-handed (Remove multiple taunts at low levels maybe not ALL of them?) and in fact assumes too much (me and my partner generally duo up our noobs and use all those abilities) I dont think most of it s dramatically a big deal. I have one exception to complain about. Taking mesmerise away from enchanters at the start is as stupid as stupid can be. It is the defining difference in their class, is used constantly while soloing, and should be restored as they need to know to use it from the get-go. It would be like taking the pet away from summoners on the basis that they dont NEED it till level 10.Im also confused by why you would label this 'cool stuff'? Cool stuff is new exciting content and changes not shuffling around of lower level spells.

Dethdlr

06-24-2010, 07:07 PM

I think I understand what they're trying to do here and if I'm right, it would answer the questions of why 10 or so levels is going to give a player the insight needed to understand the more complex spells. It's not. It's going to give them time to grasp the simple things first.I suspect that 99.99% of the people reading this and 100% of people responding here have at least 1 character that is over level 20. Most have been playing for years. I think a lot of us are forgetting some of the things a brand new player, who potentially has never played an MMO before, has to learn in order to play EQ2.During the first few levels, they're still figuring things out like movement keys, how to pan the camera, how to zoom in and out, how their inventory works, how do bags work and how do I open them, how does the quest journal work, what do the icons above NPC heads mean, what are these clickable things on the ground and what do I do with them, how do I jump, how do I open another hotbar, how do chat channels work, how do I equip new things I'm getting as body drops and quest rewards, and the list goes on. Sure there are popup help boxes here and there but its still things the player is learning that they need to commit to memory.I think the goal is to take some of the more advanced spells/CAs and move them up a bit in levels so that the brand new players aren't overwhelmed with even more things to learn than they already are. For most of us here, lets be honest, we're gonna breeze through the first 20 or so levels pretty quick and most likely barely notice these changes. The brand new player though will be able to get a handle on the basics of how to use the UI, move around, and all the other simple things that the rest of us take for granted before they start having to figure out how to use the more complicated spells/CAs.At least that's what *I* believe is the intent of these changes. For the brand new players, it's probably a move in the right direction. For the rest of us, we'll probably barely notice since we'll breeze right past those levels anyway.

Neiloch

06-24-2010, 07:12 PM

<cite>Decimatr@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>For the brand new players, it's probably a move in the right direction. For the rest of us, we'll probably barely notice since we'll breeze right past those levels anyway.</blockquote>Exactly. People need to stop being so shortsighted worrying about how these changes are going to effect them making their umpteenth alt. This is to help out TRUE newbies, people who have NEVER played the game before.

BlueEternal

06-24-2010, 07:20 PM

Seems like a giant waste of development time to me. You remove some pretty important class defining spells pre-level 20...why? Leveling in this game is super easy, even for the most noobiest of noobs, it doesn't matter if it's level 6 or level 20 he's getting his first taunt. It's still going to be a new ability for him and he'll have to learn how to use it eventually, why not start at the earliest stage possible?Fix the current problems, hold your current subscription base as much as you can, THEN worry about new players. New players won't matter if you're driving away the veterans because you're constantly ignoring major issues.

Trepan

06-24-2010, 07:25 PM

I disagree with the delayed granting of Mezmerize. Pulling is a skill developed from level 1 and learning how to handle over-pulls with mez (even your own, if you're soloing) is something I would think was desirable.

katalmach

06-24-2010, 07:39 PM

I will NOT be soloing, thank you very much. I've played EQ2 since launch day and I have not ever soloed (unless forced to by mechanics, of course) and I never will. I play this game because I enjoy grouping and the way that my and my groupmate's skills interact. I heal, tank taunts, scout detaunts and backstabs while the enchanter is mezzing mobs.. that's the gameplay I enjoy, whether it be at level 1 or level 90.Seriously, it seems as though this game is becoming all about soloing or raiding. As someone who almost exclusively duos or trios, that is incredibly disheartening. I could care less what groups of 1 or groups of 24 do - I want content for 2-6 players. I want content that requires thought, teamplay (for small groups and full groups alike) and tactics - I do not want to see skills being removed for being too complex. How stupid do you think your players are? If skills are useless due to their current implementation (see dumbfire pets), then of course you should fix them. But "fixing" spells and spell progression for being "too complex"? No thanks. Complexity is the biggest attraction this game has, as far as I'm concerned, and it really upsets me to see it watered down to such a degree.By the way, I had never played an MMO before EQ2. In fact, it was one of the first computer games I played, and I started at launch when it was a lot more challenging than it is today - yet somehow I had no problems learning or getting into the game. Not saying the game didn't/doesn't have problems, but being too difficult isn't one of them. Not having enough content to support all playstyles, maybe (which is why you see small groups complaining that group content is too hard - what they really mean is that they'd like some content appropriate for small groups AS WELL, but sadly all too often it is interpreted as "please nerf group instances").

Gaige

06-24-2010, 07:51 PM

Forced soloing now? Pretty amazing. It'll be humorous to see even scrubbier level 90s that have no idea how to play their class in an endgame setting because they solo'd to the level cap.

Boise

06-24-2010, 07:56 PM

I wonder when other issues will be address since this update will not help my class.Can we do something with rangers simply getting shafted on the dps front? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />

MrWolfie

06-24-2010, 08:03 PM

You're so out of touch with your playerbase!How many couples do you have playing? Do you even know?You realise that they ALWAYS create characters together and play side-by-side. Assuming that everyone will be soloing until level 15 is not only facile but ignores every duo/trio that ever started this game. We're ALWAYS going to be in partnership, the fighters are ALWAYS going to need taunts.The poster above got it dead right when saying that there is an oft ignored set of players who get no new or worthwhile content : the duos and trios.It's about time you took a look at some genuine figures, see how many players of what playstyle and level you have and start tailoring content for them. As far as I know, there are no couple-centric MMOs. Instead of treading the tired path, how about offering something new?Take some of those raid zones I'm never going to see and add small group content, restrict the zone to two or three max and give us some great loot and great adventure.Apart from that, your priorities should be getting Game Updates out more regularly and fixing stuff that your players are telling you over and over is BROKEN.

circusgirl

06-24-2010, 08:05 PM

Normally the response to people whining about things taking away from dev time is that there are different devs assigned to do the projects no one cares about vs. the ones we all desperately want (i.e. class balance & lag). This is almost certainly eating up a lot of the class balance dev's time though, which I think is highly misguided.Do I like Smokejumper's assertion that we will do nothing but solo before level 15? No, I don't, I think it was kind of an obnoxious thing to say. However, he's probably mostly right, and I don't think these changes do any real harm. I do kind of object to these weird random projects for lowbies when there is so much imbalance at the high end of things.

JoarAddam

06-24-2010, 08:25 PM

Don't fighters need taunts to skillup aggression??

Dreadpatch

06-24-2010, 08:31 PM

Um, honestly how much time does it take to level to 15? Let's not over react here. I can mildly understand maybe a little frustration, but you can accidentally get to level 15 in about an hour. It's not like it would even cut into your aa's waiting to 15 to get these skills.

Dreadpatch

06-24-2010, 08:32 PM

Also, this is clearly some sort of precursor to another change regardless of what was communicated.

Neiloch

06-24-2010, 09:00 PM

Especially since he said it was part of a larger update and was simply pushed by itself heh. People aren't being forced to solo, an overwhelming majority solo to 20 anyway. On top of the FACT these spells were just made optional opposed to being thrusted upon complete newbs by auto-grant who are still trying to figure out skills they already have, amongst other facets of the game itself like the UI and crafting etc. And again, this extremely minor to people who have played the game before, for example everyone complaining here. But this is HUGE for new players. Maybe they should spend their dev time putting in a reading comprehension mini-game. Seems to be the most needed tutorial in EQ2 if you go by these forum posts.

Armawk

06-24-2010, 09:33 PM

<cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maybe they should spend their dev time putting in a reading comprehension mini-game. Seems to be the most needed tutorial in EQ2 if you go by these forum posts.</blockquote>I understand an urge to simplify the initial levels a little bit for new players.. but giving them no idea what makes their class other than a 'bang you are dead' dpser is pointless.And anyway, this is not the end, just the beginning of what we ALL know will be full scale spell consolidation and simplification across all levels. We KNOW this deep down and yet we all try our hardest to kid ourself that it isnt going to happen.

Ocello

06-24-2010, 09:38 PM

Dear above posters:RELAX. Take a drink from your sippy cup. And think.Have you EVER grouped before level 15? Without a higher level mentoring you (in which case you wont need any of these spells)? I never have grouped before 15, not in 5 years. Even if you did, you won't miss these skills.Will a new player MISS taunts, hate transfers, or intercept before 15? No, they simply won't. There is no way to justify such vicious outcry. Just stop. You sound like children.I will agree it seems a little unnecessary, but it doesn't matter to me. It makes sense to me as a veteran, and I know I won't miss these spells for the first 20 levels on any new toon.

Ocello

06-24-2010, 09:42 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>Forced soloing now? Pretty amazing. It'll be humorous to see even scrubbier level 90s that have no idea how to play their class in an endgame setting because they solo'd to the level cap.</blockquote>What in the 9 hells makes you think any of this news will FORCE you to solo???????????? Get a clue.

Ocello

06-24-2010, 09:44 PM

<cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't fighters need taunts to skillup aggression??</blockquote>It levels up very easily...

Nevao

06-24-2010, 10:06 PM

<cite>Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Normally the response to people whining about things taking away from dev time is that there are different devs assigned to do the projects no one cares about vs. the ones we all desperately want (i.e. class balance & lag). This is almost certainly eating up a lot of the class balance dev's time though, which I think is highly misguided.Do I like Smokejumper's assertion that we will do nothing but solo before level 15? No, I don't, I think it was kind of an obnoxious thing to say. However, he's probably mostly right, and I don't think these changes do any real harm. I do kind of object to these weird random projects for lowbies when there is so much imbalance at the high end of things.</blockquote>I'm waiting to see what else gets pushed, and what else is announced, before getting too excited but I have a lot of the same concerns. Yes they want new players in but they also have a very loud and concerned group about end game balances (with actually has a pretty consistent forum opinion which rarely happens) that is paying the current bills. As we were told changes were being looked into and they would be communicated to us as soon SmokeJumper got the rundown. I'm hoping this was not the set of changes or that they decided to work their way from level 1 and balance through the game (in other words we could still be having this conversation when the next expansion comes out). It's almost been 3 weeks since we were told this, hopefully the answer is coming soon. Hell it would be nice to just hear a status update of "still working on that plan".As for the changes themselves I think most are pretty good though a few do confuse me (loss of mez for example). I want to see the larger "newb experiance revamp" before I say much more.

Gungo

06-24-2010, 10:29 PM

<cite>Ocello wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dear above posters:RELAX. Take a drink from your sippy cup. And think.Have you EVER grouped before level 15? Without a higher level mentoring you (in which case you wont need any of these spells)? I never have grouped before 15, not in 5 years. Even if you did, you won't miss these skills.Will a new player MISS taunts, hate transfers, or intercept before 15? No, they simply won't. There is no way to justify such vicious outcry. Just stop. You sound like children.I will agree it seems a little unnecessary, but it doesn't matter to me. It makes sense to me as a veteran, and I know I won't miss these spells for the first 20 levels on any new toon.</blockquote>The funny thing is apprentice level taunts have been utterly worthless since the game first came out. It offers not a single tangible value of agro to the tank. It hasnt for many years. Has anyone here every spent the coin to even get the master of the level <10 taunts. No you know why? They do not help regaining agro. Save yourself time and frustration and hit the next available combat art instead.

EtoilePirate

06-24-2010, 10:42 PM

I hate to say it but I just turned on Shader 3.0 for the first time in about a month and my framerate while running it has gotten significantly worse. Before it wasn't framerates that were my problem, it was darkness (Abandoned Kejek Village, for example, being completely unplayable). But now my framerates have tanked. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />As for my PC's capability, I'm going to hazard a guess that it's more than capable because I only built it two weeks ago. Intel i7-930, 6 gb of RAM, nVidia GeForce 480, and so on. Should be more than capable of running a 5 1/2-year-old game at something higher than 4 - 18 fps! (On my shader 1 settings, I get 22 - 61, with the lowest being while I'm in flight in SF.)

Malacha

06-24-2010, 11:18 PM

<cite>EtoilePirate wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hate to say it but I just turned on Shader 3.0 for the first time in about a month and my framerate while running it has gotten significantly worse. Before it wasn't framerates that were my problem, it was darkness (Abandoned Kejek Village, for example, being completely unplayable). But now my framerates have tanked. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />As for my PC's capability, I'm going to hazard a guess that it's more than capable because I only built it two weeks ago. Intel i7-930, 6 gb of RAM, nVidia GeForce 480, and so on. Should be more than capable of running a 5 1/2-year-old game at something higher than 4 - 18 fps! (On my shader 1 settings, I get 22 - 61, with the lowest being while I'm in flight in SF.)</blockquote>The shader changes are on Test, not live.

Skeez1e

06-25-2010, 01:37 AM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EtoilePirate wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hate to say it but I just turned on Shader 3.0 for the first time in about a month and my framerate while running it has gotten significantly worse. Before it wasn't framerates that were my problem, it was darkness (Abandoned Kejek Village, for example, being completely unplayable). But now my framerates have tanked. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />As for my PC's capability, I'm going to hazard a guess that it's more than capable because I only built it two weeks ago. Intel i7-930, 6 gb of RAM, nVidia GeForce 480, and so on. Should be more than capable of running a 5 1/2-year-old game at something higher than 4 - 18 fps! (On my shader 1 settings, I get 22 - 61, with the lowest being while I'm in flight in SF.)</blockquote>The shader changes are on Test, not live.</blockquote>I'm going to hazard a guess that Kella doesn't even have live loaded. There really are some of us who don't play on live at all.

Katz

06-25-2010, 02:46 AM

<cite>Ocello wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dear above posters:RELAX. Take a drink from your sippy cup. And think.Have you EVER grouped before level 15? Without a higher level mentoring you (in which case you wont need any of these spells)? I joined the game with two friends. We grouped together from level 1. Many people who recently joined our guild are couples that have grouped together from level 1.I never have grouped before 15, not in 5 years. Even if you did, you won't miss these skills.Will a new player MISS taunts, hate transfers, or intercept before 15? I used taunts, etc. at level 14 for sure on my SK). Maybe they should have them come in at level 10 instead of 15.No, they simply won't. There is no way to justify such vicious outcry. Just stop. You sound like children.I will agree it seems a little unnecessary, but it doesn't matter to me. It makes sense to me as a veteran, and I know I won't miss these spells for the first 20 levels on any new toon.</blockquote>

Gladiolus

06-25-2010, 02:47 AM

Thou shalt not group before level 15? Then why would I bother making new characters at all? Why would I think of inviting friends to come play if I'm then supposed to say Oh go play by yourself and when you've levelled up we can see about grouping. The best fun we've had in the game in the last year was our baby group that was born in Halas and is now levelling up together.PS: If anyone actually wants us to read what they post, please use a legible font.

Finora

06-25-2010, 03:32 AM

Smokejumper, I think you are seriously underestimating the intelligence of your average EQ2 player. There is NOTHING about eq2 that is so terribly complex that a person over the age of 16 of average intelligence couldn't figure out by simply reading the text there in the game right before them. My 6 yr old has a paladin and SK and has no issue understanding taunts, intercept and the other 'too complex' spells, I find it hard to believe that the adults (who seem to be the majority of the EQ2 playerbase) would have much difficulty with the concepts.Soothe, I am afraid you must not really understand the use of the spell if you think it has no use at lower levels. Its NOT that hard to understand as long as you can read (the description of what the spells do is right there on them after all) and soothe makes difficult to solo classes (low level templars and inquisitors) life much easier. Likewise with entrance and mesmerize for the enchanters. Particularly since you seem to think it's solo only time in Eq2 these days. Seems pretty silly to make it more difficult for new players to solo when you seem to think that soloing is the only way to get to level 20.Contrary to what you may believe but people did and still do group before level 20. The last alt I made on the Isles before you guys dropped them grouped up for some things there. There are still herioc mobs in the newbie areas of Qeynos, Freeport and Kelethin. There is no reason to make people search out spells at such low levels, it'll be far more confusing for them to randomly find out that they are missing spells for no reason other than the Devs thought they were too stupid to understand how to use them. That's a shame really.Want to make EQ2 a better game? Want to have it stand out a bit from the horde of other MMOs out there? Stop pushing the solo solo solo solo all the time til level cap crap. It's an MMO, there should be reason to group at ALL levels f the game. One of the most awesome things IMO about EQ2 when it first was released was that there was raid (multigroup) content that was as low as level 20. I find it sad to see all that being taken away in what seems to be a mad rush to push everyone to level cap.

Dethdlr

06-25-2010, 03:43 AM

<cite>Gladiolus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thou shalt not group before level 15? Then why would I bother making new characters at all? Why would I think of inviting friends to come play if I'm then supposed to say Oh go play by yourself and when you've levelled up we can see about grouping. The best fun we've had in the game in the last year was our baby group that was born in Halas and is now levelling up together.PS: If anyone actually wants us to read what they post, please use a legible font.</blockquote>I really think some bad choices of words were made by Xelgad when he did the writeup for Smokejumper. Let me see if I can help clear up what I *think* was meant.All of the places where he mentioned that you won't be grouping, he was describing BRAND NEW PLAYERS that don't have friends already playing the game. The chances of a brand new player grouping in the current new player zones is probably pretty slim prior to them reaching level 15-20. They're still figuring out the basics of the game and don't have a friend to answer their questions.Us vets aren't the target of these changes and they aren't really going to impact us very much. We'll buzz through those levels fairly quick, even with a new player in tow. It's the new players that came here on their own that they're targeting. Hopefully, once they are finished with the new player experience tweaks, they'll actually decide to spend a few bucks and advertise the fact that this game actually exists. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And sorry Gladiolus, this wasn't really targeted at you, your message was just a convenient one to quote on the topic. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Finora

06-25-2010, 03:50 AM

Funny, most of the people I know who were new to the game joined with at least one other friend/family member. They tend to start in the same home city and group from level 1 whenever they are all online.I reallize that one of Smokejumper's big goals is to bring in lots more new players, however, making EQ2 just like every other solo to level cap THEN group/raid MMO out there is a really bad start. (not like that yet but that seems to be the general trend lately =( )

Malacha

06-25-2010, 06:21 AM

<cite>Finora@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no reason to make people search out spells at such low levels, it'll be far more confusing for them to randomly find out that they are missing spells for no reason other than the Devs thought they were too stupid to understand how to use them. That's a shame really.</blockquote>Honestly, this is the feeling that SmokeJumper's post gave me... new players are too stupid to figure out what a spell does (either by inspecting it, or *gasp* trying it out) so instead of put a better explanation in the inspect window, they'll just hide them and spring the surprise on them later when they're "smarter".

Nuhus

06-25-2010, 06:46 AM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Finora@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no reason to make people search out spells at such low levels, it'll be far more confusing for them to randomly find out that they are missing spells for no reason other than the Devs thought they were too stupid to understand how to use them. That's a shame really.</blockquote>Honestly, this is the feeling that SmokeJumper's post gave me... new players are too stupid to figure out what a spell does (either by inspecting it, or *gasp* trying it out) so instead of put a better explanation in the inspect window, they'll just hide them and spring the surprise on them later when they're "smarter".</blockquote>There was once another game that used to be all complicated, they made it so you only had one hotbar cause they thought people were that stupid. They also made it against the EULA for UI mods. *cringe*

SonnyA

06-25-2010, 07:22 AM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Finora@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is no reason to make people search out spells at such low levels, it'll be far more confusing for them to randomly find out that they are missing spells for no reason other than the Devs thought they were too stupid to understand how to use them. That's a shame really.</blockquote>Honestly, this is the feeling that SmokeJumper's post gave me... new players are too stupid to figure out what a spell does (either by inspecting it, or *gasp* trying it out) so instead of put a better explanation in the inspect window, they'll just hide them and spring the surprise on them later when they're "smarter".</blockquote>Nothing wrong with that. It's called a learning curve. No need to make it steep. Plenty of time to learn the game. It doesn't have to be within the first 20 levels.

Dulissa

06-25-2010, 08:08 AM

How is the changing of the taunts going to effect Heroic Opportunities? Are they just going to get rid of these as well?

screenid

06-25-2010, 08:34 AM

I agree with the changes. - EXCEPT for the Mezz change (My coercer and Illy used this spell to stop the a mob from attacking after hitting it with my lvl 1 nuke) THIS SPELL NEEDS TO STAY AS IS <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />---------------------------------------------------------------Most Vets will hit lvl 10 in an hour(with BIO breaks) <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />I have had 2 friends try this game ...as a VET I did not realize how much of a learning curve there was, until I tried helping them. --LOL-- try explaining AA to someone who is still trying to understand -HOs- and their spells ( funny story one of them had no idea they could make additional spell bars...so when they were getting new spells they never knew...once that first bar was full)------------When this game was released ...LVL...1-20 meant something because of the class -sub class quest. It use to take time to hit lvl 20 (needed to because there were only 50 lvl -no aa) but you knew your class (and what a rush to finally be a **insert class**. Now-a-days there is way too much thrown at you ((only good thing about the Noob islands were ....they did a good job holding the players hand even though they were SUB par to TD or DLW as starting areas))

psisto

06-25-2010, 08:56 AM

Personally I think the changes so far are reading good. Im looking forward to testing the shader changes, they should be a real treat <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />As for the spell changes, its true, taunts, hate transfers, intercepts etc - even when grouping below lvl 15, they just arent needed. The decision in my eyes isnt about players being too stupid to figure out the game, I think its more about having to lug around senseless clutter in your hotbar. I mean lets face it. Sure, I taunt to finish HOs, but Ive never intercepted or hate transferred at such low levels, so why have 1-2 spells that youre just not going to get any use out of? If their sole purpose in 99.9% of the cases is "to just be there on the hotbar", then we may as well safely ditch them to be introduced at a slightly later date.I also like the summon food/water change, a little extra cleric DPS is very welcome <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

EtoilePirate

06-25-2010, 08:57 AM

<cite>Skeez1e wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EtoilePirate wrote:</cite><blockquote>I hate to say it but I just turned on Shader 3.0 for the first time in about a month and my framerate while running it has gotten significantly worse. Before it wasn't framerates that were my problem, it was darkness (Abandoned Kejek Village, for example, being completely unplayable). But now my framerates have tanked. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />As for my PC's capability, I'm going to hazard a guess that it's more than capable because I only built it two weeks ago. Intel i7-930, 6 gb of RAM, nVidia GeForce 480, and so on. Should be more than capable of running a 5 1/2-year-old game at something higher than 4 - 18 fps! (On my shader 1 settings, I get 22 - 61, with the lowest being while I'm in flight in SF.)</blockquote>The shader changes are on Test, not live.</blockquote>I'm going to hazard a guess that Kella doesn't even have live loaded. There really are some of us who don't play on live at all.</blockquote>Actually, I installed Live last week and have a 16 SK on one server with some old friends, 'cause I'm out of Test slots. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But yeah, I don't know where the guy got "Live" out of this. Everything I wrote about is on Test.

Powers

06-25-2010, 09:08 AM

SmokeJumper, how are newbie fighters supposed to complete their solo Heroic Opportunities without taunts?Powers &8^]

Pervis

06-25-2010, 09:21 AM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>You will be soloing.</blockquote>Saying this was a mistake.This is an MMO. Playing this game with other people is a large part of what MMOs are about. If I wanted to solo at all, I would play a game that does solo play a LOT better than EQ2 does. Dragon Age, Divinity or even Oblivion provide me with more options and more entertainment than soloing in this game does. They also have much better attention to detail than any MMO could ever achieve.Running any of them along with MSN is no different at all to soloing in an MMO.If a new player will be soloing at level 6 in order to progress their character, if this is their only option (as both the word WILL and the low level content dictate), what sort of a representation does it give them of the rest of game? Will they think that soloing is the prefered means of progress in this game? Will they be aware that there comes a point when it is more beneficial to group up to progress (a point that is currently set at level 90, 45 levels too late for my liking)?

Pervis

06-25-2010, 09:25 AM

<cite>Ocello wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never have grouped before 15, not in 5 years. Even if you did, you won't miss these skills.</blockquote>I remember grouping up to kill scarecrows outside the Qeynos gate, and down by the Thundering Steppes griffon tower from about level 12 to 18 on my first few characters. Before that I had been grouping in The Peat Bog and The Caves.While that was a long time ago, grouping at low levels should be encouraged, not discouraged.

awny

06-25-2010, 09:54 AM

d1anaw

06-25-2010, 10:35 AM

Personally, I think the changes are fine, at least for the types of characters I play. Since I don't play melee types, I have no clue. Most of these changes won't affect the current players unless they start a new character and new players aren't going to know the difference. So I fail to see the drama.

EtoilePirate

06-25-2010, 10:44 AM

<cite>Pervis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ocello wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never have grouped before 15, not in 5 years. Even if you did, you won't miss these skills.</blockquote>I remember grouping up to kill scarecrows outside the Qeynos gate, and down by the Thundering Steppes griffon tower from about level 12 to 18 on my first few characters. Before that I had been grouping in The Peat Bog and The Caves.While that was a long time ago, grouping at low levels should be encouraged, not discouraged.</blockquote>Bear in mind that you can no longer start in Qeynos or Freeport, so it takes a bit more work to get to those areas -- you have to know you're there and intentionally mean to do it.I installed Live a week or two ago and started a new baby SK in Neriak. Just following along the quest series there I had to switch 40% of my XP to AA (after 10) because I was out-leveling everything left and right. And that was within just an hour or two of rolling the gnome, no vitality or max-toon bonus or anything. My gut and experience says that the powers that be think if you're following the post-May-2010 newbie curve, you won't be naturally thrown together with other players until at least level 15.

Raahl

06-25-2010, 10:49 AM

<cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote>When are we going to see class balance issues being addressed. All of this stuff is completely unnecessary. Why are you making decisions for your playerbase? You are taking away options which is always a bad thing and leaving obvious glaring oversights in class balance un-touched.Stop everything and balance your [Removed for Content] classes!</blockquote>I totally agree with this! I would think that fixing existing class issues and class balance would be a better use of development resources. Plus you are taking away tools that people use while in group. Sure the majority of people will be solo'ing at these levels, but why take away the group tools?

Shinie

06-25-2010, 10:56 AM

If these changes are SOE's definition of "Cool", then i worry for the short future this game has got left <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" />

Obadiah

06-25-2010, 11:15 AM

This turned out to be a confusing thread. Half the posters don't seem to understand what was actually changed.Most of these changes are not a big deal. New player or old, you're through levels 1-10 in a heartbeat. Period. But grouping shortly after level 10 isn't that uncommon. This is especially true on a PVP serve, and even an Apprentice taunt can be useful there. I wouldn't remove any spells at all from Auto-Grant; that's just adding an unnecessary layer of complexity.There are some worthwhile changes that are helpful: Aqueous Stone changes, Wall of Rage/Hunker Down, Bash/Body Check/Hateful Slam/Mrs Dash, Wrath, Absorb Magic, Vampire Bats, to name a few. But IMO it makes life MORE confusing to have spells that you still HAVE but aren't "auto-granted".

Oakum

06-25-2010, 11:32 AM

While the extra attack for a priest class will help at low lvls and another stun for predators will help them too.My concern is now at the upper lvls in BG and PVP also specifically the predators will now have another stun to use to make those classes with lesser armor even more helpless for 40k assainates and long ranged attacks where the players have no chance to survive. Is the overpowering effect of more stuns at high lvls being taken into consideration?

CrazyMoogle

06-25-2010, 11:50 AM

We got people whining that the senior producer of the game rightly realizes that everyone solos at level 6?Good lord.Yes, everyone solos at level 6. Nobody cares if you grouped with one other person to kill 2 mobs once 3 years ago when you were level 5. That lasted you all of, what....10 mins? And an hour later you were level 15. Grats. Quit whining.Some of you will look for any obviously sensible statement you can pick at.

Raahl

06-25-2010, 11:55 AM

<cite>Sirlo@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>We got people whining that the senior producer of the game rightly realizes that everyone solos at level 6?Good lord.Yes, everyone solos at level 6. Nobody cares if you grouped with one other person to kill 2 mobs once 3 years ago when you were level 5. That lasted you all of, what....10 mins? And an hour later you were level 15. Grats. Quit whining.Some of you will look for any obviously sensible statement you can pick at.</blockquote>I think most of our problems is why change it if it's such a small protion of the game and shouldn't the resources be used to fix class issues and class balance.

Sedenten

06-25-2010, 12:01 PM

I would suggest moving the Heroic Opportunities starter up to the same level that fighters will auto-receive their first taunt. It's going to be confusing to new players (tanks especially) when they receive the starter and cannot even do much with it without first buying or somehow acquiring a taunt. The HO mechanics, while fundamentally simple to someone who has played the game for a while, is going to be much more confusing to newer players than some of the abilities that they will no longer be auto scribing.Or, the Heroic Opportunities system could use a long overdue revamp to make it more intuitive for new players and more useful in a group situation for all levels. Other than a few solo HO's and what's required in a very few raid encounters, they aren't really used that much.

GrunEQ

06-25-2010, 12:03 PM

The part I dislike about making taunts and mezzs only at "later" levels, is that these skills have skill points to make you better/stronger using your skill. If you don't start using them early, you are by defination a weaker player because you have many levels of skill points to make up.

Raahl

06-25-2010, 12:04 PM

I would have rather seen them spend the resources to.<ol><li>Fix class DPS. There are several classes that aren't able to do the DPS that they should. Rangers come to mind. Plus there are many other classes that need to be tweaked DPS wise.</li><li>Fix Fighter TPS. The current mechanism of hate being based mainly on how much DPS you do is broken and is imbalanced.</li><li>Address issues that each class is seeing. At this time, it seems like you do not listen or care about what the players are seeing issue wise. Read and comment on the multiple issues thread in the class forums.</li></ol>BTW most of these issues are at higher levels.

Raahl

06-25-2010, 12:05 PM

<cite>Koinoo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would suggest moving the Heroic Opportunities starter up to the same level that fighters will auto-receive their first taunt. It's going to be confusing to new players (tanks especially) when they receive the starter and cannot even do much with it without first buying or somehow acquiring a taunt. The HO mechanics, while fundamentally simple to someone who has played the game for a while, is going to be much more confusing to newer players than some of the abilities that they will no longer be auto scribing.Or, the Heroic Opportunities system could use a long overdue revamp to make it more intuitive for new players and more useful in a group situation for all levels. Other than a few solo HO's and what's required in a very few raid encounters, they aren't really used that much.</blockquote>Good catch.

Zabjade

06-25-2010, 12:05 PM

Are all taunts removed until 15? I realize that you are likely to solo until then, taunts are needed to complete Heroic Opportunities.Apparently I'm not the only one wondering about that.

CrazyMoogle

06-25-2010, 12:11 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sirlo@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>We got people whining that the senior producer of the game rightly realizes that everyone solos at level 6?Good lord.Yes, everyone solos at level 6. Nobody cares if you grouped with one other person to kill 2 mobs once 3 years ago when you were level 5. That lasted you all of, what....10 mins? And an hour later you were level 15. Grats. Quit whining.Some of you will look for any obviously sensible statement you can pick at.</blockquote>I think most of our problems is why change it if it's such a small protion of the game and shouldn't the resources be used to fix class issues and class balance.</blockquote>I seriously doubt it took that long to change the level of a spell from 4 to 15 or whatever.But we have emo kids on here acting like SOE just disabled grouping functions for anyone less than level 90 or something.You can still group kids, if you really want to. Nobody is stopping you from grabbing another buddy to help you take down that mean ol' orc pawn. And when you were taking down that orc, those taunts weren't doing you any good anyway. It's too bad you didn't realize that.This change is so NEW players can be introduced to new mechanics in the game over time, so they can be absorbed bit by bit. It makes sense, and will not hurt anyone's gameplay in anyway.

Raahl

06-25-2010, 12:16 PM

<cite>Sirlo@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sirlo@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>We got people whining that the senior producer of the game rightly realizes that everyone solos at level 6?Good lord.Yes, everyone solos at level 6. Nobody cares if you grouped with one other person to kill 2 mobs once 3 years ago when you were level 5. That lasted you all of, what....10 mins? And an hour later you were level 15. Grats. Quit whining.Some of you will look for any obviously sensible statement you can pick at.</blockquote>I think most of our problems is why change it if it's such a small protion of the game and shouldn't the resources be used to fix class issues and class balance.</blockquote>I seriously doubt it took that long to change the level of a spell from 4 to 15 or whatever.But we have emo kids on here acting like SOE just disabled grouping functions for anyone less than level 90 or something.You can still group kids, if you really want to. Nobody is stopping you from grabbing another buddy to help you take down that mean ol' orc pawn. And when you were taking down that orc, those taunts weren't doing you any good anyway. It's too bad you didn't realize that.This change is so NEW players can be introduced to new mechanics in the game over time, so they can be absorbed bit by bit. It makes sense, and will not hurt anyone's gameplay in anyway.</blockquote>No matter how much or how little time was spent doing this, the time would have been better spent fixing the current issues of the game.Are you just ignoring the other issues that will occur from these changes? Good luck completeing a HO.We were all NEW players at one time and to tell you the truth these abilities that are being removed were not confusing or a problem. I don't suspect that the current batch of NEW players will have any problems with the current unmodified mechanism.

kcirrot

06-25-2010, 12:18 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sirlo@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>We got people whining that the senior producer of the game rightly realizes that everyone solos at level 6?Good lord.Yes, everyone solos at level 6. Nobody cares if you grouped with one other person to kill 2 mobs once 3 years ago when you were level 5. That lasted you all of, what....10 mins? And an hour later you were level 15. Grats. Quit whining.Some of you will look for any obviously sensible statement you can pick at.</blockquote>I think most of our problems is why change it if it's such a small protion of the game and shouldn't the resources be used to fix class issues and class balance.</blockquote>Class issues are on-going and will be on-going until the game shuts down. That's simply a fact. The developers have to have a space to work on other things with regard to spells and mechanics. You're only looking at your subjective view of what's important. The developers can not do that. They must consider what the game feels like to new players or concede that they are stuck with the playerbase that they have now. Perhaps that's reality, but I wouldn't give up if I were them.Will that sometimes come at the expense of everyone's pet project? Yes. No doubt about it. But when everyone's pet project is something like class balance where there are multiple opinions and no easy answers, I don't think it's problematic for the devs to work on other things.

kcirrot

06-25-2010, 12:21 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>No matter how much or how little time was spent doing this, the time would have been better spent fixing the current issues of the game.</blockquote>Why?You say that like it's self-evident. You ignore that this IS a current issue of the game. The game is bewildering at low levels. Hell, I've been playing since launch and it's still a bit overwhelming to start an alt in an AT that I'm not very familiar with.

Raahl

06-25-2010, 12:27 PM

<cite>kcirrot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sirlo@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>We got people whining that the senior producer of the game rightly realizes that everyone solos at level 6?Good lord.Yes, everyone solos at level 6. Nobody cares if you grouped with one other person to kill 2 mobs once 3 years ago when you were level 5. That lasted you all of, what....10 mins? And an hour later you were level 15. Grats. Quit whining.Some of you will look for any obviously sensible statement you can pick at.</blockquote>I think most of our problems is why change it if it's such a small protion of the game and shouldn't the resources be used to fix class issues and class balance.</blockquote>Class issues are on-going and will be on-going until the game shuts down. That's simply a fact. The developers have to have a space to work on other things with regard to spells and mechanics. You're only looking at your subjective view of what's important. The developers can not do that. They must consider what the game feels like to new players or concede that they are stuck with the playerbase that they have now. Perhaps that's reality, but I wouldn't give up if I were them.Will that sometimes come at the expense of everyone's pet project? Yes. No doubt about it. But when everyone's pet project is something like class balance where there are multiple opinions and no easy answers, I don't think it's problematic for the devs to work on other things.</blockquote>My subjective view is that taking something that has been this way from day 1 and changing it slightly should be far down the list of things to do. There are far more important things to look into.

Raahl

06-25-2010, 12:30 PM

<cite>kcirrot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>No matter how much or how little time was spent doing this, the time would have been better spent fixing the current issues of the game.</blockquote>Why?You say that like it's self-evident. You ignore that this IS a current issue of the game. The game is bewildering at low levels. Hell, I've been playing since launch and it's still a bit overwhelming to start an alt in an AT that I'm not very familiar with.</blockquote>Saying this game is bewildering at low levels is laughable. As many have pointed out, new characters are level 15 within a few hours of starting. If the game was so bewildering, I suspect that this wouldn't be the case.

kcirrot

06-25-2010, 12:34 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kcirrot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>No matter how much or how little time was spent doing this, the time would have been better spent fixing the current issues of the game.</blockquote>Why?You say that like it's self-evident. You ignore that this IS a current issue of the game. The game is bewildering at low levels. Hell, I've been playing since launch and it's still a bit overwhelming to start an alt in an AT that I'm not very familiar with.</blockquote>Saying this game is bewildering at low levels is laughable. As many have pointed out, new characters are level 15 within a few hours of starting. If the game was so bewildering, I suspect that this wouldn't be the case.</blockquote>Actually, that's WHY it's so bewildering. Within an hour of play a character who is not slowing exp will have at least a dozen skills, many of which are close to useless to them at that point.

kcirrot

06-25-2010, 12:37 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kcirrot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sirlo@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>We got people whining that the senior producer of the game rightly realizes that everyone solos at level 6?Good lord.Yes, everyone solos at level 6. Nobody cares if you grouped with one other person to kill 2 mobs once 3 years ago when you were level 5. That lasted you all of, what....10 mins? And an hour later you were level 15. Grats. Quit whining.Some of you will look for any obviously sensible statement you can pick at.</blockquote>I think most of our problems is why change it if it's such a small protion of the game and shouldn't the resources be used to fix class issues and class balance.</blockquote>Class issues are on-going and will be on-going until the game shuts down. That's simply a fact. The developers have to have a space to work on other things with regard to spells and mechanics. You're only looking at your subjective view of what's important. The developers can not do that. They must consider what the game feels like to new players or concede that they are stuck with the playerbase that they have now. Perhaps that's reality, but I wouldn't give up if I were them.Will that sometimes come at the expense of everyone's pet project? Yes. No doubt about it. But when everyone's pet project is something like class balance where there are multiple opinions and no easy answers, I don't think it's problematic for the devs to work on other things.</blockquote>My subjective view is that taking something that has been this way from day 1 and changing it slightly should be far down the list of things to do. There are far more important things to look into.</blockquote>The problem with your point is that they've already done it. They obviously feel that this was something that was important for them to do so they did it. What's your point here except to complain about them doing it?

Raahl

06-25-2010, 12:40 PM

<cite>kcirrot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kcirrot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>No matter how much or how little time was spent doing this, the time would have been better spent fixing the current issues of the game.</blockquote>Why?You say that like it's self-evident. You ignore that this IS a current issue of the game. The game is bewildering at low levels. Hell, I've been playing since launch and it's still a bit overwhelming to start an alt in an AT that I'm not very familiar with.</blockquote>Saying this game is bewildering at low levels is laughable. As many have pointed out, new characters are level 15 within a few hours of starting. If the game was so bewildering, I suspect that this wouldn't be the case.</blockquote>Actually, that's WHY it's so bewildering. Within an hour of play a character who is not slowing exp will have at least a dozen skills, many of which are close to useless to them at that point. </blockquote>When was the last time you leveled a new character?Within the last month I've leveled 3-4 different characters (Healer types) to level 10-12. Having these extra less usefull skill was in no way bewildering. Everytime I leveled I looked forward to the potential of getting a new spell or an upgrade to an existing spell.

CrazyMoogle

06-25-2010, 12:42 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sirlo@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sirlo@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>We got people whining that the senior producer of the game rightly realizes that everyone solos at level 6?Good lord.Yes, everyone solos at level 6. Nobody cares if you grouped with one other person to kill 2 mobs once 3 years ago when you were level 5. That lasted you all of, what....10 mins? And an hour later you were level 15. Grats. Quit whining.Some of you will look for any obviously sensible statement you can pick at.</blockquote>I think most of our problems is why change it if it's such a small protion of the game and shouldn't the resources be used to fix class issues and class balance.</blockquote>I seriously doubt it took that long to change the level of a spell from 4 to 15 or whatever.But we have emo kids on here acting like SOE just disabled grouping functions for anyone less than level 90 or something.You can still group kids, if you really want to. Nobody is stopping you from grabbing another buddy to help you take down that mean ol' orc pawn. And when you were taking down that orc, those taunts weren't doing you any good anyway. It's too bad you didn't realize that.This change is so NEW players can be introduced to new mechanics in the game over time, so they can be absorbed bit by bit. It makes sense, and will not hurt anyone's gameplay in anyway.</blockquote>No matter how much or how little time was spent doing this, the time would have been better spent fixing the current issues of the game.Are you just ignoring the other issues that will occur from these changes? Good luck completeing a HO.We were all NEW players at one time and to tell you the truth these abilities that are being removed were not confusing or a problem. I don't suspect that the current batch of NEW players will have any problems with the current unmodified mechanism.</blockquote>That's what you're hanging your hat on? An HO that can easily be changed to use a different ability if it's that important.Some of yall are digging for something to complain about.

Raahl

06-25-2010, 12:46 PM

<cite>kcirrot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kcirrot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sirlo@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>We got people whining that the senior producer of the game rightly realizes that everyone solos at level 6?Good lord.Yes, everyone solos at level 6. Nobody cares if you grouped with one other person to kill 2 mobs once 3 years ago when you were level 5. That lasted you all of, what....10 mins? And an hour later you were level 15. Grats. Quit whining.Some of you will look for any obviously sensible statement you can pick at.</blockquote>I think most of our problems is why change it if it's such a small protion of the game and shouldn't the resources be used to fix class issues and class balance.</blockquote>Class issues are on-going and will be on-going until the game shuts down. That's simply a fact. The developers have to have a space to work on other things with regard to spells and mechanics. You're only looking at your subjective view of what's important. The developers can not do that. They must consider what the game feels like to new players or concede that they are stuck with the playerbase that they have now. Perhaps that's reality, but I wouldn't give up if I were them.Will that sometimes come at the expense of everyone's pet project? Yes. No doubt about it. But when everyone's pet project is something like class balance where there are multiple opinions and no easy answers, I don't think it's problematic for the devs to work on other things.</blockquote>My subjective view is that taking something that has been this way from day 1 and changing it slightly should be far down the list of things to do. There are far more important things to look into.</blockquote>The problem with your point is that they've already done it. They obviously feel that this was something that was important for them to do so they did it. What's your point here except to complain about them doing it?</blockquote>Obivously it's that they should be working on the current class issues and class balance that affects a large portion of the game polulation, instead of some relatively minor change that will affect a tiny portion of the game population.Sure they have already done these changes. I suspect they will have to spend more time fixing issues caused by it like the HO one, which will take even more time away from current issues.

kcirrot

06-25-2010, 12:46 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kcirrot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kcirrot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>No matter how much or how little time was spent doing this, the time would have been better spent fixing the current issues of the game.</blockquote>Why?You say that like it's self-evident. You ignore that this IS a current issue of the game. The game is bewildering at low levels. Hell, I've been playing since launch and it's still a bit overwhelming to start an alt in an AT that I'm not very familiar with.</blockquote>Saying this game is bewildering at low levels is laughable. As many have pointed out, new characters are level 15 within a few hours of starting. If the game was so bewildering, I suspect that this wouldn't be the case.</blockquote>Actually, that's WHY it's so bewildering. Within an hour of play a character who is not slowing exp will have at least a dozen skills, many of which are close to useless to them at that point. </blockquote>When was the last time you leveled a new character?Within the last month I've leveled 3-4 different characters (Healer types) to level 10-12. Having these extra less usefull skill was in no way bewildering. Everytime I leveled I looked forward to the potential of getting a new spell or an upgrade to an existing spell.</blockquote>Yesterday actually! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />And again, this change isn't for veteran players. It's for newbies. If you don't think it's worthwhile for them to chase newbies, that's fine, but it's not going to stop them from doing it.

Raahl

06-25-2010, 12:50 PM

<cite>Sirlo@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sirlo@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sirlo@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>We got people whining that the senior producer of the game rightly realizes that everyone solos at level 6?Good lord.Yes, everyone solos at level 6. Nobody cares if you grouped with one other person to kill 2 mobs once 3 years ago when you were level 5. That lasted you all of, what....10 mins? And an hour later you were level 15. Grats. Quit whining.Some of you will look for any obviously sensible statement you can pick at.</blockquote>I think most of our problems is why change it if it's such a small protion of the game and shouldn't the resources be used to fix class issues and class balance.</blockquote>I seriously doubt it took that long to change the level of a spell from 4 to 15 or whatever.But we have emo kids on here acting like SOE just disabled grouping functions for anyone less than level 90 or something.You can still group kids, if you really want to. Nobody is stopping you from grabbing another buddy to help you take down that mean ol' orc pawn. And when you were taking down that orc, those taunts weren't doing you any good anyway. It's too bad you didn't realize that.This change is so NEW players can be introduced to new mechanics in the game over time, so they can be absorbed bit by bit. It makes sense, and will not hurt anyone's gameplay in anyway.</blockquote>No matter how much or how little time was spent doing this, the time would have been better spent fixing the current issues of the game.Are you just ignoring the other issues that will occur from these changes? Good luck completeing a HO.We were all NEW players at one time and to tell you the truth these abilities that are being removed were not confusing or a problem. I don't suspect that the current batch of NEW players will have any problems with the current unmodified mechanism.</blockquote>That's what you're hanging your hat on? An HO that can easily be changed to use a different ability if it's that important.Some of yall are digging for something to complain about.</blockquote>Again taking more time away from the real issues.Some of these changes do help the classes, but the removal of CA's/Spells does not.I'm just tired of the current issues not getting addressed and rather silly and IMO rather pointless changes like these being done beforehand.

Raahl

06-25-2010, 12:54 PM

<cite>kcirrot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kcirrot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kcirrot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>No matter how much or how little time was spent doing this, the time would have been better spent fixing the current issues of the game.</blockquote>Why?You say that like it's self-evident. You ignore that this IS a current issue of the game. The game is bewildering at low levels. Hell, I've been playing since launch and it's still a bit overwhelming to start an alt in an AT that I'm not very familiar with.</blockquote>Saying this game is bewildering at low levels is laughable. As many have pointed out, new characters are level 15 within a few hours of starting. If the game was so bewildering, I suspect that this wouldn't be the case.</blockquote>Actually, that's WHY it's so bewildering. Within an hour of play a character who is not slowing exp will have at least a dozen skills, many of which are close to useless to them at that point. </blockquote>When was the last time you leveled a new character?Within the last month I've leveled 3-4 different characters (Healer types) to level 10-12. Having these extra less usefull skill was in no way bewildering. Everytime I leveled I looked forward to the potential of getting a new spell or an upgrade to an existing spell.</blockquote>Yesterday actually! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />And again, this change isn't for veteran players. It's for newbies. If you don't think it's worthwhile for them to chase newbies, that's fine, but it's not going to stop them from doing it.</blockquote>Were you bewildered in any way?I have no problem with them fixing actual issues that newbies have. Can you point me to any newbies that are confused or lost when it comes to the CA's/Spells at lower level? I'll look but will not hold my breath while doing so.BTW a large percentage of these "newbies" have played a MMO before and will have no problems playing EQ2.Heck if my 10 and 12 year old kids can play without problems, I suspect nearly anybody can.

Raahl

06-25-2010, 01:10 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you point me to any newbies that are confused or lost when it comes to the CA's/Spells at lower level? I'll look but will not hold my breath while doing so.</blockquote>Couldn't find anything on the first page of the trial forum. Not going to waste any more time looking, cause it's just not there.

Gungo

06-25-2010, 01:12 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Were you bewildered in any way?I have no problem with them fixing actual issues that newbies have. Can you point me to any newbies that are confused or lost when it comes to the CA's/Spells at lower level? I'll look but will not hold my breath while doing so.BTW a large percentage of these "newbies" have played a MMO before and will have no problems playing EQ2.Heck if my 10 and 12 year old kids can play without problems, I suspect nearly anybody can.</blockquote>There are tons of threads in the newbie forums complaining about the many spells/cas and the spamming feel to button mashing. Furthermore NOTHING but summon food/drink is being removed. And even that spell is replaced with a nuke meant to help leveling.

Raahl

06-25-2010, 01:21 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Were you bewildered in any way?I have no problem with them fixing actual issues that newbies have. Can you point me to any newbies that are confused or lost when it comes to the CA's/Spells at lower level? I'll look but will not hold my breath while doing so.BTW a large percentage of these "newbies" have played a MMO before and will have no problems playing EQ2.Heck if my 10 and 12 year old kids can play without problems, I suspect nearly anybody can.</blockquote>There are tons of threads in the newbie forums complaining about the many spells/cas and the spamming feel to button mashing. Furthermore NOTHING but summon food/drink is being removed. And even that spell is replaced with a nuke meant to help leveling. </blockquote>Care to point me to these Tons of threads? I found one that wanted a class with less CA's/Spells, but didn't seem unable to understand and play, just seemed to not want to hit as many buttons. Which for the most part is not changing with these changes.Furthermore, if we are talking about newbies to the game removing it from the list of automatic skills is basically removing it from the list. I don't expect that there would be many new players that would expect to have to go and buy a low level CA/Spell.

Gungo

06-25-2010, 01:26 PM

Raahl

06-25-2010, 01:30 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Were you bewildered in any way?I have no problem with them fixing actual issues that newbies have. Can you point me to any newbies that are confused or lost when it comes to the CA's/Spells at lower level? I'll look but will not hold my breath while doing so.BTW a large percentage of these "newbies" have played a MMO before and will have no problems playing EQ2.Heck if my 10 and 12 year old kids can play without problems, I suspect nearly anybody can.</blockquote>There are tons of threads in the newbie forums complaining about the many spells/cas and the spamming feel to button mashing. Furthermore NOTHING but summon food/drink is being removed. And even that spell is replaced with a nuke meant to help leveling. </blockquote>Care to point me to these Tons of threads? I found one that wanted a class with less CA's/Spells, but didn't seem unable to understand and play, just seemed to not want to hit as many buttons. Which for the most part is not changing with these changes.Furthermore, if we are talking about newbies to the game removing it from the list of automatic skills is basically removing it from the list. I don't expect that there would be many new players that would expect to have to go and buy a low level CA/Spell.</blockquote>Having less spells appear on your hotbar WILL change the spamming feel. There are threads just like the one you posted about. It was also the number one reason SOE claimed alot of NEW trial accounts complained about. Furthermore, new players will find spells and upgrades without going to the broker since levels 1-20 are 100% smart loot on all adepts/masters. </blockquote>What no examples of these complains to list? I remember when the level 50 spell went purchase only. There were many times I missed a spell.

SmokeJumper

06-25-2010, 01:35 PM

<cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The IDEA, is since the lower levels go so fast now, they needed to ease up on how many new things completely new players have to deal with. When they went slower the way abilities were given out was fine, but now its much faster. they also have the metrics that show a large majority of these newbie players solo. Someone grouping as it is now before 20 is rare. Its just supposed to make the whole thing less overwhelming, not getting so much at once. Think of it this way, a newbie coming into EQ2 right now is like if you played a very unfamiliar class in EQ2 at level 90 with tons of AA points. You didn't level them up and their nothing like the other classes you have played. You don't know what half your buttons do and not entirely sure how the class works.</blockquote>That's pretty much exactly what we're doing here. We don't want to remove the depth and fun of the game, we're just easing the new player into it with a bit more fun factor and a bit less complication.

SmokeJumper

06-25-2010, 01:41 PM

Please accept that the "you" in "You will be soloing" is a generic "you", implying that the average player will be soloing at that level.Regardless of your personal play style, it is absolutely true that the majority of players solo from 1-10 without even considering jumping into a group.(For the record...I'm not one of those players. If someone invites me to a group, I jump in, regardless of level...but my play style is not typical.)

Barx

06-25-2010, 01:45 PM

Xelgad

06-25-2010, 01:47 PM

A note about heroic opportunities: Fighter heroic opportunities have been changed from requiring a taunt to complete them to requiring a 'Fist' icon to complete them. Paladins and Shadowknights should soon see that one of their primary spells is now a Fist rather than a sword (Judgment and Malice) and Berserkers will soon see that Body Check and Raging Blow now go up to Raging Blow/Body Check VIII, rathar than VII, and they receive those spells at levels two and three.Everyone should be able to complete their solo heroic opportunity without toggling a buff or a stance as soon as the rest of the changes make it to test.

Prrasha

06-25-2010, 01:53 PM

If "eliminating confusion" is the only goal with these auto-grant removals, I think you're missing the Law of Unintended Consequences. So I'm a new player. I start adventuring, and one of my non-auto-granted skills drops (which is likely, given SmartLoot.) So I now know that I have skills that are auto-granted, and skills that are only found through effort. Knowing, vaguely, that risk/reward drives most games of this type, what will my level of confusion be when I realize that the "cool, drop-only" spell is something apparently useless, while the "bog-standard, granted for levelling up" skill is apparently useful? (And ditto the "don't make me hit level 20 with 5/100 Aggression skill" line. Even if it does skill up fast at that point, I'd rather have my taunts USABLE the first time I group, rather than "oh, wait a minute, guys, I need 10 or 15 encounters to just taunt the heck out of things to get my skill up, since I'm not supposed to use my most-fundamental class abilities until I get to grouping levels. Then we can go.")

Laiina

06-25-2010, 01:57 PM

Deadeyes

06-25-2010, 02:02 PM

<cite>Elusion@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, this is clearly some sort of precursor to another change regardless of what was communicated.</blockquote>QFT. Give his interview at this years E3 a listen. Free to Play is coming.

GreenArmadillo

06-25-2010, 02:03 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>Brawlers:<ul><li><div>Silent Threat I and 2, Slurred Insult I and II, Challenge and Abuse were removed from the auto-grant list because they do not need taunts before level 15.</div></li></ul></blockquote>Actually, you do need these abilities, even if you're 100% solo, because they complete your heroic opportunities. Fighters and priests could really use an EXTRA option for solo DPS in the pre-20 range, not the removal of an existing one.EDIT: Just saw the update that taunts are being removed from HO's. That's actually an even bigger de-provement. Currently, your taunt is a button that you can push when everything else is on cooldown that completes your HO and permanently raises your aggression skill so that your taunts will be usable if you do eventually try to group. Now, your HO will automatically complete from other damage abilities you were using anyway, so you'll just have more time to sit and watch yourself autoattack, and your agression skill will just sit at 5/XXX until you try to group and realize that you can't. If this change is going in, you're going to need to add aggression skill gain to something that solo players actually use, or remove weapon/casting skill gain entirely and just have them automatically cap. (I'd actually support the latter option. My first EQ2 character was a caster who got abandoned at level 7 or so because my root spell would never land because I never cast it because it would never land, and thus I could barely kill anything. If I hadn't already made up my mind that I wanted to try this game, that would probably have been the end of my free trial right there in the first hour. It's also far too easy to end up stuck at 5/100 in all five harvest skills and be looking at a painfully long grind before you can catch up. At a minimum, skill gain should be guaranteed at each attempt when you're below 100 skill in anything.)

Brook

06-25-2010, 02:14 PM

I think they are just keeping up with a growing trend.Anyone ever see the movie Idiocracy?

Finora

06-25-2010, 02:19 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neiloch@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The IDEA, is since the lower levels go so fast now, they needed to ease up on how many new things completely new players have to deal with. When they went slower the way abilities were given out was fine, but now its much faster. they also have the metrics that show a large majority of these newbie players solo. Someone grouping as it is now before 20 is rare. Its just supposed to make the whole thing less overwhelming, not getting so much at once. Think of it this way, a newbie coming into EQ2 right now is like if you played a very unfamiliar class in EQ2 at level 90 with tons of AA points. You didn't level them up and their nothing like the other classes you have played. You don't know what half your buttons do and not entirely sure how the class works.</blockquote>That's pretty much exactly what we're doing here. We don't want to remove the depth and fun of the game, we're just easing the new player into it with a bit more fun factor and a bit less complication.</blockquote>I can accept that 90% of players will bust up to 15 and can get their taunts and what not. Some of other changes were good (removing the snare effect and shield requirements for some of the warrior stuff and giving priests another damage spell at low levels is nice). The wording of the post was TERRIBLE though. It seems to imply that your new players are so thick they simply can't grasp these advanced concepts of the tank using an ability to draw the attention of the monsters from other people and taking damage.Even so, moving such spells as Soothe, mez types to MUCH later levels very much negatively affects players. They aren't that complicated to understand their use, they simply take practice to use WELL. By moving them to much later levels you aren't saving players confusion, you are removing levels they could be practicing a useful skill.I personally think the best course would to be to tweak the xp gain at lower levels down a little bit. It's a bit beyond ridiculously fast. Brand new account, kill one or 2 things and DING! Kill another or hand in a quest DING! You pretty much level to 5 by sneezing on a handful of mobs. Give the new players a few minutes to absorb what they are doing before they ding up. Leveling fast is great, don't get me wrong. Particularly if its your 12th or whatever alt, but I think the curve is a bit much at the low end.

awny

06-25-2010, 02:26 PM

<cite>Finora@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally think the best course would to be to tweak the xp gain at lower levels down a little bit. It's a bit beyond ridiculously fast. Brand new account, kill one or 2 things and DING! Kill another or hand in a quest DING! You pretty much level to 5 by sneezing on a handful of mobs. Give the new players a few minutes to absorb what they are doing before they ding up. Leveling fast is great, don't get me wrong. Particularly if its your 12th or whatever alt, but I think the curve is a bit much at the low end. I totally agree with this.... should be done regardless of any other changes. After 2 play periods, My friend is already level 13, and is so lost...Leveling is waaay too fast.</blockquote>

Ristan

06-25-2010, 03:08 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Were you bewildered in any way?I have no problem with them fixing actual issues that newbies have. Can you point me to any newbies that are confused or lost when it comes to the CA's/Spells at lower level? I'll look but will not hold my breath while doing so.BTW a large percentage of these "newbies" have played a MMO before and will have no problems playing EQ2.Heck if my 10 and 12 year old kids can play without problems, I suspect nearly anybody can.</blockquote>There are tons of threads in the newbie forums complaining about the many spells/cas and the spamming feel to button mashing. Furthermore NOTHING but summon food/drink is being removed. And even that spell is replaced with a nuke meant to help leveling. </blockquote>Care to point me to these Tons of threads? I found one that wanted a class with less CA's/Spells, but didn't seem unable to understand and play, just seemed to not want to hit as many buttons. Which for the most part is not changing with these changes.Furthermore, if we are talking about newbies to the game removing it from the list of automatic skills is basically removing it from the list. I don't expect that there would be many new players that would expect to have to go and buy a low level CA/Spell.</blockquote>Expecting a Newbie to know to go buy a spell (even if the smartloot is good it's not that good, it doesn't check your knowledge book and say "oh hey your missing x spell, let me drop it on the next mob") = fail in my book. I remember when they implimented the auto spell system and I got like 6 spells I didn't even know exsisted and I'd been playign for 2 years. Bringing that back will only ADD to the confusion.Secondly about button mashing. So, you drop some spells off the hot bar from 1-20, then add them in as the player increases in levels. THIS IS A BUTTON MASHING GAME. To let a newbie think it is otherwise is kidna a bait and switch. Get the fighters used to seeing the taunt on their bar even if they DONT use it. heck I created a newbie pally when halas released, and I was taunting when I was soloing, why you ask? skill ups and to get used to having it in my rotation.Getting to level 15 then getting a new spell that you may or may not remember to go pick up at the merchant or recieve off a mob, then having to add it in because it is your class defining ability, also is fail to me.New players aren't stupid, and this game is not 'easy mode' on the abilities, my bard has 10 hot bars full of crap, please don't set up new people to think this game is something it's not, let them see the abilities, and learn what they do even if they DONT use them.

katalmach

06-25-2010, 03:25 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please accept that the "you" in "You will be soloing" is a generic "you", implying that the average player will be soloing at that level.Regardless of your personal play style, it is absolutely true that the majority of players solo from 1-10 without even considering jumping into a group.(For the record...I'm not one of those players. If someone invites me to a group, I jump in, regardless of level...but my play style is not typical.)</blockquote>I can't really accept it, because when I started this game, it was on the premise that "you can solo, group, raid or tradeskill". Now suddenly it's "oh you'll be soloing". I have nothing against solo content, but it should be in addition to content that supports the other playstyles as well.And of course the majority of players solo from 1-10. Levelling to 10 is so quick these days that even if you did get a group at level 5 or so, you'd probably be level 10 before even getting the whole group together. I recently started a new character in New Halas and the whole experience was rather off-putting to me. Levelling was so fast I barely had a chance to grasp what my new characters spells do (I ended up level-locking several times) and low level tradeskilling is made pointless (my character had outlevelled TWO tiers before even getting to a proper crafting station), quests were incredibly linear and repetitive, travel was slow and the zone was just dull. On the isles of refuge, you got to do tons of fun little quests, you'd do the tradeskill quests with the cellar that taught you how to move things around in a house, and you'd harvest so that you could make yourself a nice set of gear so that may, just maybe, you'd be able to finally take out that stupid shark or the big slime!Anyway, my point is, I get that you want new players. But the way you're going about it.. it's really turning me, a veteran player, right off the game. Change isn't a bad thing - I like the changes to Shield Bash and some other spells - but removing content and making a six-year-old gaming experience worse (no longer finishing HOs with taunt is detrimental to my gaming experience, for instance), I think is a terrible move. Not to mention that you're spending developer time on this when there are so many, long-standing issues that players on these very forums have been BEGGING you to fix or at least have a look at. It basically makes me feel like the imaginary new player's perceived opinion is worth more than the already subscribed player's.

Raahl

06-25-2010, 03:42 PM

Raahl

06-25-2010, 03:46 PM

Wytie

06-25-2010, 04:22 PM

Why is everyone beating a dead horse?This is exactly why the devs are scared to communicate things with us, because the slightest change gets met with constant rage about something thats really meaningless to a vet anyway.Let it go. If you have played this game longer than a year this change isnt for you, get over it move on.People who have been playing for a while get past these levels in less than a day, but new people who have never played before dont, and thats why its important to do whatever the heck it is they are trying to do, for new players.Seems like a nice change keep em comming....

Raahl

06-25-2010, 04:31 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why is everyone beating a dead horse?This is exactly why the devs are scared to communicate things with us, because the slightest change gets met with constant rage about something thats really meaningless to a vet anyway.Let it go. If you have played this game longer than a year this change isnt for you, get over it move on.People who have been playing for a while get past these levels in less than a day, but new people who have never played before dont, and thats why its important to do whatever the heck it is they are trying to do, for new players.Seems like a nice change keep em comming....</blockquote>Probably because we are tired of the current issues not being addressed.Think back when you were first starting. How many days did it take you to get to 15, 3 or 4 days at most?

CrazyMoogle

06-25-2010, 04:40 PM

Raahl

06-25-2010, 04:47 PM

Dulissa

06-25-2010, 04:54 PM

<cite>Sirlo@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please accept that the "you" in "You will be soloing" is a generic "you", implying that the average player will be soloing at that level.Regardless of your personal play style, it is absolutely true that the majority of players solo from 1-10 without even considering jumping into a group.(For the record...I'm not one of those players. If someone invites me to a group, I jump in, regardless of level...but my play style is not typical.)</blockquote>SmokeJumper, don't let the handful of vocal emo kids whining discourage you. The vast majority of us look forward to the communication.This is a minor change that won't hurt anyone's gameplay but potentially helps true newbies in the game.</blockquote>Now if they actually pump some new blood into this game with oh I dunno, advertising? amirite?Everybody keeps talking about "the new players." We are doing this for the new players. We are doing that for the new players.Simple question..where the hell are these NEW players? I'm willing to bet that probably a good 80-90% of these low level toons you see running around are alts. They make all these changes to accommodate the "new player"...okay...now show me something that actually tells people "Hey, there is this game called Everquest 2....Check us out!!" to get these mythical new players into the game.

Gladiolus

06-25-2010, 05:04 PM

<cite>Sirlo@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can still group kids, if you really want to. Nobody is stopping you from grabbing another buddy to help you take down that mean ol' orc pawn. And when you were taking down that orc, those taunts weren't doing you any good anyway. It's too bad you didn't realize that.</blockquote>What is too bad is that you don't realise that you're looking at it from the point of view of someone that needs to kill a mob and seeks a group to help him do so. That isn't likely to happen at low level, now that the Guurok has gone.More often it's either someone bringing a friend into the game, or guildies looking for something to do as a group, who then create and level new characters together. The group isn't formed to kill something; something fun to do is sought by a group which exists because they enjoy each other's company.The idea that we shouldn't practise good grouping methods from the start doesn't seem to me to be reason to remove spells. If the people really were too stupid to understand them, they would just ignore them. If someone doesn't use a spell, it's not a burden to him, and it shouldn't be a reason to deny someone else the use of that spell.

Rick777

06-25-2010, 05:12 PM

Cool, 20 more levels for new players to solo thru to get to 90 and have no idea how to group. Seriously, why bother with those levels? It's nice seeing tanks who don't taunt or healers who only dps, and yes I've seen both at 90.I've forced myself to have fun watching the growing chasm between soloquest and raiding. It's fun to see guilds who were "hardcore" months ago now /oocing that they are recruiting key raid spots in general chat.Changes like this, while really only minor, really illustrate the undercurrent of the serious soloification of the game. I'm really just waiting for henchmen for groups/raids, any timeframe? Great news for some, terrible for others.

jjlo69

06-25-2010, 05:23 PM

with some of these changes are heroic opertunites gonna be revamped ???cause i know in order to advance them at early levels i had to use things like evade, provoke ectand personally i use HO's alot early on and in the end gameexamples of thislucky break>evade>quick strike = completed scout HOfighting chance>painbringer>insidious whisper completed fighter HOuncle

SmokeJumper

06-25-2010, 05:36 PM

Whill

06-25-2010, 05:55 PM

What about PVP servers?A lot of these skills that are being changed are highly NECESSARY at lower levels. A lot of people level lock in tier 2 now, and pvp as a group - what will it do to my warden's surviveability to have the paladin that I run with most of the time suddenly unable to taunt??*shakes head*

Whill

06-25-2010, 06:00 PM

sorry double post

Arkenor

06-25-2010, 06:06 PM

Removing skills useful for grouping like taunts from the lower levels seems a very strange idea to me. Once again, it feels as if somebody's vision of how we SHOULD play is being imposed upon us.Admittedly, EQ2 as it currently works does its best to rush new players through their early levels, with you arriving at level 20 by the time you get to Halas or Gorowyn. But still, it doesn't seem right that grouping skills are being stripped away to discourage low level grouping.If, as is apparently believed, taunts are causing confusion, why not create some sort of ingame tutorial quest that teaches a warrior how to use them? It is better to teach than to just decide that people aren't smart enough to understand something that is never actually explained ingame. The same goes for all the other skills that are being removed from lower levels. Delaying them isn't going to help much if exactly how they work is never really explained. You just delay the opportunity they have for figuring it out themselves by trial and error.That's how you make EQ2 newbie-friendly. By providing new players with all the information they need. Not by restricting what they can do.Please stop removing our options. If you want to improve the game, you'll find lots of sensible suggestions that don't involve taking things out of Everquest 2.

Dethdlr

06-25-2010, 06:07 PM

Sneak peek at the EQ2 Whiteboard (completely made up):How do we grow? By increasing our player base. How do we increase our player base?<ul><li>A. Attract New Players</li><li>B. Retain New Players</li><li>C. Retain Existing Players</li></ul>How do we Attract New Players?AdvertiseOffer incentives for existing players to recruit their friendsHow do we Retain New Players?Make sure the new user experience is as fun and streamlined as possible. Make sure all the starting zones have a logical progression. Make sure the new players don't hit situations where the ask themselves "what do I do next?" or "how does this work?". Make sure the players are able to pick up how to play the game without being overwhelmed by everything all at once. Spread out the new skills over the first 15-20 levels. Create the golden path to questing so players know what zone to go to next. Revamp the travel system and show the expected levels of the different zones right there on the map. Make sure that the new user experience is completely polished and makes new players want to keep coming back to play rather than go study to figure out what they should do next. Players should never have to ask, "I'm level x, what zone should I go to next?"How do we Retain Exisiting Players?Add new content. Add new gear/items. Tweak class balance on an ongoing basis. Fix lag. Fix other bugs.Approach: Constantly work on the items for Retaining Existing Players. Quickly finish the work needed to Retain New Players. Every day this is delayed, we're losing potential new players. Each time someone tries out the game before we're done polishing the new player experience, we risk them quitting the game and never coming back. We need to get this done ASAP. We shouldn't do much in the way of inticing new players until we are ready for them to see the new and improved new player experience.So... our priorities are: B needs to happen ASAP and needs to be done right. A needs to wait until we are done with B. C should be an ongoing day to day part of doing business. <hr />(Note: The above is simply the mindless ramblings of the author. No developers were consulted during the writing of this message.) <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Jrral

06-25-2010, 06:23 PM

<cite>Whillyn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>A lot of these skills that are being changed are highly NECESSARY at lower levels. A lot of people level lock in tier 2 now, and pvp as a group - what will it do to my warden's surviveability to have the paladin that I run with most of the time suddenly unable to taunt??</blockquote>I don't recall them removing those skills. They're just being removed from the auto-grant list, ie. you won't get them handed to you when you level. You should still be able to go buy them if you want them. Experienced players will know about those spells and get at least journeyman versions made, and brand-new players will have blown through those levels and be at the point where they will be auto-granted those skills before they're familiar enough with the game itself to think about grouping up.

irbi

06-25-2010, 06:46 PM

Mr.SmokeJumper, what maximum level at your characters?

Daine

06-25-2010, 06:50 PM

We need class balance at end game. It's so easy now to get to 90 with the Golden Path, xp adjustments, etc. I'd hate to be the new player that rolls a bruiser and spends hours of his life on this amazing new game hoping to raid, then gets shut down by every guild he applies to.Please announce some big class balance changes. And for the love of all that is holy fix the 'illusionist pet dropping on zoning with mythical buff on' bug. It's been happening since the expansion launch almost half a year ago now! The cast time of the pet is hard capped at 5s so I have to stand there watching my guildies moving or killing while I summon this useless pet that dies in the slightest AOE. I'm really about to start not casting her, even if she's a part of my mythical for some random reason!

Captain Apple Darkberry

06-25-2010, 07:00 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>Warriors:<ul><li><div>Mock 1 and 2, Provoke 1 and 2, Enrage 1 and Shout 1 were removed from the auto-grant list as you do not need taunts before level 15. The odds of grouping before then are pretty low.</div></li></ul></blockquote>If you really think that this game hasn't been killed already...by all the "solo friendly" mechanics stuffed down the players' throats all in the hopes of gaining a few more new players, then you really need to get back on the FreeRealms lolipop boat and leave this game alone.You want to know why no one groups below 15? Because you cranked the gear up to god levels and made the mobs pansies. Because you took ANY viability away from playing in zones like The Wailing Caves, Blackburrow, the deep levels of the city sewers...I still remember the first time that I knew I was hooked on EQ2. It was back when you had to group up to adventure in Antonica. When you couldn't solo the Scarecrows in the farmers' fields without risk. Me and a friend had finally reached a level where we were able to traverse Antonica to Blackburrow...and we were slaughtered. The Gnolls squished us, ate us, and then camped our shards. A friendly high level Warden saw our plight and invited us to group and greyed out the zone for us. That night was the hook that got me. A game that people helped each other in...because it was needed. Not grouping together and pulling 10 sets of heroic encounters all at the same time like you can now...even at level. No...it was different. People were grouping because they needed each other to get some things done...like the access quest to The Enchanted Lands. It was awesome to log into the game and play with friends and LEARN to play a class, because you had to learn...and people helped. Now? Now everything is so easy that if you can't figure it out you are called an idiot. Now everything is so easy that if the tank isn't pulling full rooms every one else gets angry. Now? You can run a zone without a healer. Now? SOE has to nerf items to keep a Defiler from soloing a raid zone. << Seriously.Please, rethink what you are doing to this game. You are not gaining permanent subscriptions. You are getting game hoppers who come, try it out, complain about something being too easy, then leaving...while you run around and dumb things down for someone who has already gone back to whatever RMT game they came from. Soon you will lose the veterans...and all you will have are the fickle game hoppers.

Writer Cal

06-25-2010, 07:27 PM

Interesting changes. It'll be interesting to see the rest.But as others have stated, I'm disappointed to see more focus on the new player lowbie experience, which goes very quickly, and still nothing for many of the longstanding issues at the top tier.

Rick777

06-25-2010, 07:40 PM

<cite>Cricket@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>Warriors:<ul><li><div>Mock 1 and 2, Provoke 1 and 2, Enrage 1 and Shout 1 were removed from the auto-grant list as you do not need taunts before level 15. The odds of grouping before then are pretty low.</div></li></ul></blockquote>If you really think that this game hasn't been killed already...by all the "solo friendly" mechanics stuffed down the players' throats all in the hopes of gaining a few more new players, then you really need to get back on the FreeRealms lolipop boat and leave this game alone.You want to know why no one groups below 15? Because you cranked the gear up to god levels and made the mobs pansies. Because you took ANY viability away from playing in zones like The Wailing Caves, Blackburrow, the deep levels of the city sewers...I still remember the first time that I knew I was hooked on EQ2. It was back when you had to group up to adventure in Antonica. When you couldn't solo the Scarecrows in the farmers' fields without risk. Me and a friend had finally reached a level where we were able to traverse Antonica to Blackburrow...and we were slaughtered. The Gnolls squished us, ate us, and then camped our shards. A friendly high level Warden saw our plight and invited us to group and greyed out the zone for us. That night was the hook that got me. A game that people helped each other in...because it was needed. Not grouping together and pulling 10 sets of heroic encounters all at the same time like you can now...even at level. No...it was different. People were grouping because they needed each other to get some things done...like the access quest to The Enchanted Lands. It was awesome to log into the game and play with friends and LEARN to play a class, because you had to learn...and people helped. Now? Now everything is so easy that if you can't figure it out you are called an idiot. Now everything is so easy that if the tank isn't pulling full rooms every one else gets angry. Now? You can run a zone without a healer. Now? SOE has to nerf items to keep a Defiler from soloing a raid zone. << Seriously.Please, rethink what you are doing to this game. You are not gaining permanent subscriptions. You are getting game hoppers who come, try it out, complain about something being too easy, then leaving...while you run around and dumb things down for someone who has already gone back to whatever RMT game they came from. Soon you will lose the veterans...and all you will have are the fickle game hoppers.</blockquote>Well said, and nostalgic as I can remember 3-manning those scarecrow fields in Antonica and even then there was a real risk of death. The issue is that everyone wants easy, everyone wants to hear that Pavlovian level ding constantly, after all it's how we've been trained. We get levels thrown at us to keep us interested, but it really dissuades new players who look at that huge mountain of level 1 to 90, 250 AA's, gear, adornments, etc etc. If the game was kept to 50 levels, but the levels remained hardcore, the mobs remained dangerous, I think people would value their leveling that much more. Horizontal progression with content, hard content, was what made the game satisfying.But it's turned into a dopamine releasing dingfest where the path of least resistance is the best one. That magic that created Everquest and games like it is slowly dissolving into the pure and utter laziness of WoW. It's not to say that players who only solo are bad, it's that SOE really didn't give them much of an option but to solo. There are things SOE could have done to make grouping up easier and quicker which would have appealed to the casual gamer, but kept the difficulty level of the actual content high and thus satisfying on a micro level, and on a macro level throughout the leveling process as well.

Raahl

06-25-2010, 07:55 PM

<cite>irbiss wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mr.SmokeJumper, what maximum level at your characters?</blockquote>As high as he wants. He is the Big Cheese after all. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

FearDiadh

06-25-2010, 08:17 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>A note about heroic opportunities: Fighter heroic opportunities have been changed from requiring a taunt to complete them to requiring a 'Fist' icon to complete them. Paladins and Shadowknights should soon see that one of their primary spells is now a Fist rather than a sword (Judgment and Malice) and Berserkers will soon see that Body Check and Raging Blow now go up to Raging Blow/Body Check VIII, rathar than VII, and they receive those spells at levels two and three.Everyone should be able to complete their solo heroic opportunity without toggling a buff or a stance as soon as the rest of the changes make it to test.</blockquote>Xelgad posted about the HO changes back on page 8, so I'll just quote him here.</blockquote>What is the possibility of giving rangers a way to complete these with ranged combat arts? As it stands now, we have to be in melee range to use HOs.

GreenArmadillo

06-25-2010, 08:45 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>Xelgad posted about the HO changes back on page 8, so I'll just quote him here.</blockquote>Is there a plan for dealing with aggression skill gains if fighters will no longer be using taunts for solo HO's? New tanks won't be thanking you for saving them a button push at level 1 if it means they're hundreds of points behind on this skill when they actually try to tank.

SmokeJumper

06-25-2010, 08:57 PM

<cite>irbiss wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mr.SmokeJumper, what maximum level at your characters?</blockquote>I've been playing every day since I got back, but I'm something of an alt-aholic, plus I keep dragging new groups of total newbies into the game so I can listen to them flail around (on VOIP) and take notes about what works and doesn't work for them.Since I started with the team, I've built up a 59 Troll SK, and a slew of 30'ish characters (Wizard, Necro, Troubador, and Monk), as well as some "get them to 20" characters.I've focused on playing all of the newbie experiences (all starting areas, and playing through all the quests/content in original launch areas like Commonlands, Thundering Steppes, Nek Forest, etc.I think I'll either level up my SK further, or just stick with the Wizard and drive him forward. I'm tackling PvP and BGs next, on the way toward getting to 90 so I can raid.P.S., I don't cheat. I've purchased a few XP potions (mostly to feel the effect of those marketplace purchases), but in general, I've just played the game, just like the rest of you. I need to do that in order to understand what players are seeing. Cheating ahead is both a) not cool, and b) not useful.

Raahl

06-25-2010, 09:00 PM

A SK, who would have thought. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />When I saw the E3 interview and you mentioned that you don't see some classes as overpowered just fun to play I should have known.

SmokeJumper

06-25-2010, 09:03 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>A SK, who would have thought. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Oh, piffle. I started my Troll SK because I played one in EQ (original), and in that game, it was the hardest race/class combo that I tried and because I liked being evil.Besides, we did a stat study here and found out that only 1 in 75 characters gets over level 55 as a Troll, so I just had to do it.

Raahl

06-25-2010, 09:04 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>A SK, who would have thought. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Oh, piffle. I started my Troll SK because I played on in EQ (original), and in that game, it was the hardest race/class combo that I tried and because I liked being evil.Besides, we did a stat study here and found out that only 1 in 75 characters gets over level 55 as a Troll, so I just had to do it.</blockquote>Oh you are a troll. Ugly and deadly I see. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Raahl

06-25-2010, 09:06 PM

Sorry to come down so hard Smoke. It just gets tiring/frustrating waiting for classes to get fixed with little to no word on a fix let alone acknowledgement of the issues.

Nevao

06-25-2010, 09:51 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>Besides, we did a stat study here and found out that only 1 in 75 characters gets over level 55 as a Troll, so I just had to do it.</blockquote>Ok, I have to say that you're growing on me more than the last set of producers. I can't say I agree with all the on-going directions (which is to be expected) but using that kind of logic to decide your leveling plan is just hilarious.

Laenai

06-25-2010, 10:18 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>A SK, who would have thought. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Oh, piffle. I started my Troll SK because I played one in EQ (original), and in that game, it was the hardest race/class combo that I tried and because I liked being evil.Besides, we did a stat study here and found out that only 1 in 75 characters gets over level 55 as a Troll, so I just had to do it.</blockquote>I heard you play on the AB server, and if that's the case, obviously you've never met Grimgar and Bogthud <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Lemme know and I'll introduce you to the most awesome troll players in the game.PS: Stay away from the 'halfling pickuls'

Deneir_Allaston

06-25-2010, 10:23 PM

As a long time player of EverQuest I and EverQuest II I do not see many of these ability changes being necessary or even beneficial, the only portion of the update I can actually agree with is the general smoothing out of the progression of some skills in the lower levels, but the retooling of the "grouping" abilities in those levels I cannot understand. To be honest in light of these changes and the statement "This is just the tip of the iceberg, but here's what you're seeing so far:" makes me a little bit leery for the future of this game if this is the direction it is going to be heading.And I really like the game, but there needs to be more depth not less. More decisions need to be put in the player's hands and not taken away. Relentlessly dumbing down the game is only going to disillusion your existing player base. Why remove abilities from the "Auto-Grant" list at all? Is it not easy enough for a player to simply move those abilities from their bar if they are not using them? Is it not wiser to let a player get use to those kinds of skills on the way up, on their own, having them in their hands so they can understand the effect they will have when they do find themselves in the situations later in levels when grouping is more likely to happen?If you retool the levels of the grouping abilities at least leave them as "Auto-Grant" skills so players can decide if they want them on their bars or not for themselves. Suddenly handing players higher level versions of the group-centric skills all at once is, more then likely going to confuse newer players even more then before.As minor as you guys think it might be doing things like taking the option of starting in either of the games two "marquee cities", i.e. Qeynos or Freeport, or doing something as simple as changing the aqueous stone to a regular buff instead of a summoned item, is needlessly simplifying the game. The aqueous stone for example was a summoned item for a reason, simply granting the ability to breathe water is not something that is meant to be part of a summoners repertoire, but summoning a magical item like the aqueous stone with the spell-like effect of water breatheing, was - and made sense. It is what a summoner does... summon things, conjure items or creatures. The two great cities represent the absolute balance between good and evil in the game, Qeynos versus Freeport and were also there for a reason and had unique and great starting experiance of their own. And that experiance is not the same as Neriak, Gorowynn, New Halas, or Kelethin.My point is, even what might seem a relatively minor change for you developers, like the examples I mentioned above can and do "take away" something from the game for the long time and new players alike, and I just cannot agree with that method of design. You are again trying to fix something that is not broke, rather then focusing on aspects of inter-class balance or creating fun gameplay experiances that draw players into the world.If you are absolutely looking to change things follow more along the lines of what was done long ago for places like "Wailing Caves" turning it into a more classic dungeon crawl experiance, with traps and rewarding boss encounters. Or the welcome polish that was added to Deathfist Citadel. Those are the kind of changes player's generally like to see, and would be a much better investment of time in my opinion.

Terrius

06-25-2010, 10:41 PM

<cite>Deneir_Allaston wrote:</cite><blockquote>As a long time player of EverQuest I and EverQuest II I do not see many of these ability changes being necessary or even beneficial, the only portion of the update I can actually agree with is the general smoothing out of the progression of some skills in the lower levels, but the retooling of the "grouping" abilities in those levels I cannot understand. To be honest in light of these changes and the statement "This is just the tip of the iceberg, but here's what you're seeing so far:" makes me a little bit leery for the future of this game if this is the direction it is going to be heading.And I really like the game, but there needs to be more depth not less. More decisions need to be put in the player's hands and not taken away. Relentlessly dumbing down the game is only going to disillusion your existing player base. Why remove abilities from the "Auto-Grant" list at all? Is it not easy enough for a player to simply move those abilities from their bar if they are not using them? Is it not wiser to let a player get use to those kinds of skills on the way up, on their own, having them in their hands so they can understand the effect they will have when they do find themselves in the situations later in levels when grouping is more likely to happen?If you retool the levels of the grouping abilities at least leave them as "Auto-Grant" skills so players can decide if they want them on their bars or not for themselves. Suddenly handing players higher level versions of the group-centric skills all at once is, more then likely going to confuse newer players even more then before.As minor as you guys think it might be doing things like taking the option of starting in either of the games two "marquee cities", i.e. Qeynos or Freeport, or doing something as simple as changing the aqueous stone to a regular buff instead of a summoned item, is needlessly simplifying the game. The aqueous stone for example was a summoned item for a reason, simply granting the ability to breathe water is not something that is meant to be part of a summoners repertoire, but summoning a magical item like the aqueous stone with the spell-like effect of water breatheing, was - and made sense. It is what a summoner does... summon things, conjure items or creatures. The two great cities represent the absolute balance between good and evil in the game, Qeynos versus Freeport and were also there for a reason and had unique and great starting experiance of their own. And that experiance is not the same as Neriak, Gorowynn, New Halas, or Kelethin.My point is, even what might seem a relatively minor change for you developers, like the examples I mentioned above can and do "take away" something from the game for the long time and new players alike, and I just cannot agree with that method of design. You are again trying to fix something that is not broke, rather then focusing on aspects of inter-class balance or creating fun gameplay experiances that draw players into the world.If you are absolutely looking to change things follow more along the lines of what was done long ago for places like "Wailing Caves" turning it into a more classic dungeon crawl experiance, with traps and rewarding boss encounters. Or the welcome polish that was added to Deathfist Citadel. Those are the kind of changes player's generally like to see, and would be a much better investment of time in my opinion.</blockquote>QFE, this post is so spot on I wish I had written it <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I agree 100% with everything said in that quote. All removing taunts and stuff is gonna do, is [Removed for Content] any new players. Lvl 20 with 5 agression = no chance at all of landing a taunt, trust me I've PLed with collections before as my zerker. "oh but you only have to taunt 95 times to max the skill" while that may be true those first 95 taunts are going to be frustrating and a waste of time that should have been progressing as you leveled in the first place.

kcirrot

06-25-2010, 11:13 PM

EDIT: Erased.

Rijacki

06-25-2010, 11:28 PM

<cite>Tariuss@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>All removing taunts and stuff is gonna do, is [Removed for Content] any new players. Lvl 20 with 5 agression = no chance at all of landing a taunt, trust me I've PLed with collections before as my zerker. "oh but you only have to taunt 95 times to max the skill" while that may be true those first 95 taunts are going to be frustrating and a waste of time that should have been progressing as you leveled in the first place.</blockquote>As when agression was first added to the game, a lot of players, with that high of a failure rate, will be convinced taunts don't do anything or at least do a lot less than they do. Even more players with 70+ characters will completely eschew taunts (and de-taunts) as -any- use, even for grouping and raiding.

Bjerde

06-25-2010, 11:37 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote><ul><li><div>Dispel Magic is now Absorb Magic and now also drains some power from the target and returns it to the caster. This makes the spell more desired to use throughout all the level ranges and on all targets, rather than a very, very few amount.</div></li></ul></blockquote>Dispel Magic is very, very useful in BGs and PvP. If it is going to be a mana drain, it better be good. If not, I suggest leaving it as is. Take your wiz into BGs and use Dispel Magic, it is kind of nice when you are actually getting close to killing a crusader and they pop Holy Shield only to be dispelled. Removing Nature's Walk from a flag runner in Ganak is kind of huge too.

irbi

06-25-2010, 11:43 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>irbiss wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mr.SmokeJumper, what maximum level at your characters?</blockquote>I've been playing every day since I got back, but I'm something of an alt-aholic, plus I keep dragging new groups of total newbies into the game so I can listen to them flail around (on VOIP) and take notes about what works and doesn't work for them.Since I started with the team, I've built up a 59 Troll SK, and a slew of 30'ish characters (Wizard, Necro, Troubador, and Monk), as well as some "get them to 20" characters.I've focused on playing all of the newbie experiences (all starting areas, and playing through all the quests/content in original launch areas like Commonlands, Thundering Steppes, Nek Forest, etc.I think I'll either level up my SK further, or just stick with the Wizard and drive him forward. I'm tackling PvP and BGs next, on the way toward getting to 90 so I can raid.P.S., I don't cheat. I've purchased a few XP potions (mostly to feel the effect of those marketplace purchases), but in general, I've just played the game, just like the rest of you. I need to do that in order to understand what players are seeing. Cheating ahead is both a) not cool, and b) not useful.</blockquote>Thx -)I wish you to reach as soon as possible a maximum level then changes of "90lvl mechanic" likely will begin.I hope you will be raiding 90lvl Ranger and will be post your parses.

BChizzle

06-26-2010, 01:32 AM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>irbiss wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mr.SmokeJumper, what maximum level at your characters?</blockquote>I've been playing every day since I got back, but I'm something of an alt-aholic, plus I keep dragging new groups of total newbies into the game so I can listen to them flail around (on VOIP) and take notes about what works and doesn't work for them.Since I started with the team, I've built up a 59 Troll SK, and a slew of 30'ish characters (Wizard, Necro, Troubador, and Monk), as well as some "get them to 20" characters.I've focused on playing all of the newbie experiences (all starting areas, and playing through all the quests/content in original launch areas like Commonlands, Thundering Steppes, Nek Forest, etc.I think I'll either level up my SK further, or just stick with the Wizard and drive him forward. I'm tackling PvP and BGs next, on the way toward getting to 90 so I can raid.P.S., I don't cheat. I've purchased a few XP potions (mostly to feel the effect of those marketplace purchases), but in general, I've just played the game, just like the rest of you. I need to do that in order to understand what players are seeing. Cheating ahead is both a) not cool, and b) not useful.</blockquote>Please get your SK to 90 already so you can experience some end game too, it is nice you are putting some focus on making things good for new players, but you should also remember at some point you have to keep them playing and levels 1-20 the greatest thing ever isn't going to do that. That said its pretty awesome the effort you are putting in.

Phelon_Skellhound

06-26-2010, 01:37 AM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>A SK, who would have thought. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Oh, piffle. I started my Troll SK because I played one in EQ (original), and in that game, it was the hardest race/class combo that I tried and because I liked being evil.Besides, we did a stat study here and found out that only 1 in 75 characters gets over level 55 as a Troll, so I just had to do it.</blockquote>I'd be interested in reading the stat study hehe... It's been years since one was put out

Jrral

06-26-2010, 01:41 AM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've been playing every day since I got back, but I'm something of an alt-aholic, plus I keep dragging new groups of total newbies into the game so I can listen to them flail around (on VOIP) and take notes about what works and doesn't work for them.Since I started with the team, I've built up a 59 Troll SK, and a slew of 30'ish characters (Wizard, Necro, Troubador, and Monk), as well as some "get them to 20" characters.I've focused on playing all of the newbie experiences (all starting areas, and playing through all the quests/content in original launch areas like Commonlands, Thundering Steppes, Nek Forest, etc.I think I'll either level up my SK further, or just stick with the Wizard and drive him forward. I'm tackling PvP and BGs next, on the way toward getting to 90 so I can raid.P.S., I don't cheat. I've purchased a few XP potions (mostly to feel the effect of those marketplace purchases), but in general, I've just played the game, just like the rest of you. I need to do that in order to understand what players are seeing. Cheating ahead is both a) not cool, and b) not useful.</blockquote>This is good to hear. One thing that's been missing in recent years is high-level members of the dev team who actually play the game outside of high-level raiding (or play the game at all it sometimes seems). One thing I'd mention: in T9 and at 90 there's a lot of game outside of raiding too. There's a lot of us out here who run the instances and zones like the Hole, but will rarely get a chance at the raid zones because we just don't have the time to spend getting into a raiding guild and getting a permanent or semi-permanent slot in raids. And the game at the group-instance level's different from the game in raids.Also: do cheat. Not casually, but with a purpose. Don't cheat by just auto-dinging a character to 90, but it's instructive to get the various types of gear players would normally have in T9 (various TSO shard sets, Mark armor, 82 mastercrafted, various battlegrounds sets) and play a character you know and levelled up normally in different sets. Nothing beats having a personal yardstick for what the content's like for various standards of gear and skills, and you can get that yardstick without bankrupting yourself or having to spend weeks or months grinding shards/marks/tokens.

Foolsfolly

06-26-2010, 02:06 AM

I'm looking forward to trying the shader 3.0 again. It was very pretty, but like the GPU shadows, caused too much lag when a group or more of other players were around.

Araxes

06-26-2010, 02:08 AM

Somkejumper don't try your wily tricks to assuage us! We KNOW the sky is about to fall and by dammit we will MAKE SURE that you know it, too! GDI!<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Actually I think these changes are just fine.Ara

Xelgad

06-26-2010, 03:19 AM

<cite>Odinn@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote><ul><li><div>Dispel Magic is now Absorb Magic and now also drains some power from the target and returns it to the caster. This makes the spell more desired to use throughout all the level ranges and on all targets, rather than a very, very few amount.</div></li></ul></blockquote>Dispel Magic is very, very useful in BGs and PvP. If it is going to be a mana drain, it better be good. If not, I suggest leaving it as is. Take your wiz into BGs and use Dispel Magic, it is kind of nice when you are actually getting close to killing a crusader and they pop Holy Shield only to be dispelled. Removing Nature's Walk from a flag runner in Ganak is kind of huge too.</blockquote>It still dispels. It just also drains mana and no longer costs any mana to cast.

Zabjade

06-26-2010, 09:47 AM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>A note about heroic opportunities: Fighter heroic opportunities have been changed from requiring a taunt to complete them to requiring a 'Fist' icon to complete them. Paladins and Shadowknights should soon see that one of their primary spells is now a Fist rather than a sword (Judgment and Malice) and Berserkers will soon see that Body Check and Raging Blow now go up to Raging Blow/Body Check VIII, rathar than VII, and they receive those spells at levels two and three.Everyone should be able to complete their solo heroic opportunity without toggling a buff or a stance as soon as the rest of the changes make it to test.</blockquote>That is definitely going to make things interesting on my hot-bar... my first four keys on on my primary hot-bar are designed for Heroic Opportunities. Punch-kick-taunt-HO (The screenshot was from a while back)<img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/001/561/351.JPG" width="1024" height="768" />BTW if you want to change some of the animation for the Crusaders doing spells (Waving their hands about-looks way off)

Macross_JR

06-26-2010, 10:44 AM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>A SK, who would have thought. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Oh, piffle. I started my Troll SK because I played one in EQ (original), and in that game, it was the hardest race/class combo that I tried and because I liked being evil.Besides, we did a stat study here and found out that only 1 in 75 characters gets over level 55 as a Troll, so I just had to do it.</blockquote>and now that you have your sk up to 59, make a guardian and see how that feels for you. try to do the same things you do as a sk. then come back here.

threat111

06-26-2010, 10:58 AM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odinn@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote><ul><li><div>Dispel Magic is now Absorb Magic and now also drains some power from the target and returns it to the caster. This makes the spell more desired to use throughout all the level ranges and on all targets, rather than a very, very few amount.</div></li></ul></blockquote>Dispel Magic is very, very useful in BGs and PvP. If it is going to be a mana drain, it better be good. If not, I suggest leaving it as is. Take your wiz into BGs and use Dispel Magic, it is kind of nice when you are actually getting close to killing a crusader and they pop Holy Shield only to be dispelled. Removing Nature's Walk from a flag runner in Ganak is kind of huge too.</blockquote>It still dispels. It just also drains mana and no longer costs any mana to cast.</blockquote>The power replenish/drains are way to low for lvl 90. Can get better results with a mana stone. If your going to make a change go all the way. Give it a 1100 drain with a 550 drain that CAN be affected by crits and potency.

Barzzboi

06-26-2010, 11:49 AM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odinn@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote><ul><li><div>Dispel Magic is now Absorb Magic and now also drains some power from the target and returns it to the caster. This makes the spell more desired to use throughout all the level ranges and on all targets, rather than a very, very few amount.</div></li></ul></blockquote>Dispel Magic is very, very useful in BGs and PvP. If it is going to be a mana drain, it better be good. If not, I suggest leaving it as is. Take your wiz into BGs and use Dispel Magic, it is kind of nice when you are actually getting close to killing a crusader and they pop Holy Shield only to be dispelled. Removing Nature's Walk from a flag runner in Ganak is kind of huge too.</blockquote>It still dispels. It just also drains mana and no longer costs any mana to cast.</blockquote>There was Cease listed as not being on auto update at level 10, but it didn't say when Cease would be awarded. Level 20? 30? Or is Cease not going to be in our repertoire anymore at all? Inquiring wizzies would like to know.Have Fun!

Bjerde

06-26-2010, 01:13 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite> </cite><blockquote>It still dispels. It just also drains mana and no longer costs any mana to cast.</blockquote></blockquote>Ok great, that is good to hear and makes it even better <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

awny

06-26-2010, 01:56 PM

okay... I just made a bruiser on Live and then a bruiser on Test to see the difference without the Taunt.All I got to say is <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />On live my level 2 used it to pull the mob to her and then begin fighting- it has a use!!On test, she was forced to run into the mobs in order to begin fighting. Now granted the level 1 & 2 mobs in Timerous Deep are not agro, but later on they will be and it is not such a good idea to go running onto a group of close knit mobs - especially solo!!What on earth makes you think this is gonna be easier.

Jrral

06-26-2010, 02:10 PM

<cite>awnya2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>On test, she was forced to run into the mobs in order to begin fighting. Now granted the level 1 & 2 mobs in Timerous Deep are not agro, but later on they will be and it is not such a good idea to go running onto a group of close knit mobs - especially solo!!</blockquote>Time to learn to body-pull and peel mobs off, then. If they're non-aggro you don't need to worry about extracting individual mobs, and if they are aggro body-pulling works.

awny

06-26-2010, 02:19 PM

I know about body pulling and I suppose your right... Its just an unecessary change as I see it.

Guy De Alsace

06-26-2010, 02:45 PM

Just read this and I laughed IRL. Soothe complicated? Sorry but it isnt.What IS complicated are the inane, misleading, badly written CA and spell descriptions that sometimes completely contradict each other, repeat the same text over and over and contain spurious sentences that have you scratching your head.Have a look at the ranger skill Miracle Shot. The one that says you dont need line of sight, oh yes you do need it...oh no you dont need it...

Captain Apple Darkberry

06-26-2010, 04:26 PM

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>awnya2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>On test, she was forced to run into the mobs in order to begin fighting. Now granted the level 1 & 2 mobs in Timerous Deep are not agro, but later on they will be and it is not such a good idea to go running onto a group of close knit mobs - especially solo!!</blockquote>Time to learn to body-pull and peel mobs off, then. If they're non-aggro you don't need to worry about extracting individual mobs, and if they are aggro body-pulling works.</blockquote>Soooo....level 15 is too early to learn about taunts, but level 2 is time to practice body pulls? Seriously?These changes stink. Badly. How long has this game been out? ...and yet it seems that the primary focus from the devs (or at least the new HMFIC) is to change the low level game (again) to pull in more players. All while ignoring the end game and PvP server problems which have caused the shedding of many veteran players.Try this; Focus on making EQ2 like EQ2 instead of like other games. It has over the years become a watered down version of every OTHER game in an attempt to steal a new player for all of the 20 levels they stuck around. Try giving some of that attention and developer time into the people who have _been_ here.Try this; instead of dumbing the game down, and making sweeping changes with a MMO world that has been out for 5 years...spend the Dev time in making tutorials in the newb areas that teach EQ2's mechanics. Try making low level group zones near those tutorial givers that act as hubs for all of these new players to practice those by having incentives to do so, like a decent piece of gear or even fluff/appearance items.Use your developer time to teach people to play EQ2...there has been and is more than enough soloing paths in this game. Especially given that there are so many classes that with gear and AA can solo all of the group content also on their way to the end game.

Seffrid

06-26-2010, 04:57 PM

There aren't enough new players trying the game, or staying with it when they have tried it, so changes are made so as to simplify the game for new players. Veteran players warn that the changes are both bad and unlikely to be effective, but those warnings are ignored and the changes are driven through.Still there aren't enough new players trying the game, or staying with it when they have tried it, so further changes are made so as to simplify even more the game for new players. Veteran players warn that the new changes are also both bad and unlikely to be effective, but those warnings are again ignored and the changes are driven through.Now there still aren't enough new players trying the game, or staying with it when they have tried it, so yet more changes are made so as to simplify even more the game for new players. Veteran players warn that the new changes are also both bad and unlikely to be effective, but those warnings are yet again ignored and the changes are driven through.Anyone see a trend here? Making yet more attempts to dumb down the game isn't resulting in the requested boost in new players so why not listen to the veterans and spend some resources on fixing the things they believe need fixing and see if that has a better result?EQ2 isn't holding/attracting players like a certain other game not because it's not similar enough to that game but because it's not different enough to it. I think that's a point that hasn't yet been grasped by the grey suits and those directed by them to make more and more rounds of changes to a game that has been steadily losing its direction under successive producers since the only one who really understood all this, Scott Hartsman, left. I actually have confidence that unlike the others the present one will get the point in time, I just hope he doesn't leave it too long.

Terrius

06-26-2010, 05:36 PM

<cite>Seffrid wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyone see a trend here? Making yet more attempts to dumb down the game isn't resulting in the requested boost in new players so why not listen to the veterans and spend some resources on fixing the things they believe need fixing and see if that has a better result?EQ2 isn't holding/attracting players like a certain other game not because it's not similar enough to that game but because it's not different enough to it. I think that's a point that hasn't yet been grasped by the grey suits and those directed by them to make more and more rounds of changes to a game that has been steadily losing its direction under successive producers since the only one who really understood all this, Scott Hartsman, left. I actually have confidence that unlike the others the present one will get the point in time, I just hope he doesn't leave it too long.</blockquote>100% agree with the bold red part. Why would a new player come to EQ2 when they can just as easily go back and roll another alt on what they're coming from? As it is now EQ2 has nothing new or exciting or different from the other games at low levels so what's the point? Dumbing down the game isn't doing anything to make the eq2 newbie experience unique in fact it's making it more like everyone else.Why cant the management see this? all the "we don't want to be more like any other game, we're EQ2 and we like it!" and yet every change you're making to the low level game contradicts those ideals?I understand you don't care what us "veteran" players think, because we're not "newbies" and we can never possibly understand what the game is like. However we were all Newbies once, and guess what we wouldn't have stayed way back then if we didn't enjoy the trial/newbie areas. I Truly miss the Tutorial Boat, it was awesome it was the thing that made me think "[Removed for Content] this game is so freaking awesome!" I loved going from Archetype > Class > sub-class It was unique, nobody else was doing their class structure like that and it gave you plenty of time to learn to play. 10 levels as a fighter, learning how to use the basic fighter tools, then 10 levels as a crusader learning how to use more advanced tools. Then finally you were a Paladin(or smelly SK <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) and you felt like you had accomplished something.Now it's more like, Oh I'm a paladin, I don't know what any of my buttons do cause I leveled to 15 an hour after I started the trial. TBH if I were a newbie and I saw that Tanks didn't get taunts, I'd think "[Removed for Content]?" and leave. Luckily I'm not a newbie, though I wish I was since then maybe my opinion would count for more than just wasted time/effort in posting it.

psisto

06-26-2010, 06:15 PM

<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just read this and I laughed IRL. Soothe complicated? Sorry but it isnt.What IS complicated are the inane, misleading, badly written CA and spell descriptions that sometimes completely contradict each other, repeat the same text over and over and contain spurious sentences that have you scratching your head.Have a look at the ranger skill Miracle Shot. The one that says you dont need line of sight, oh yes you do need it...oh no you dont need it...</blockquote>Ive always found eq2´s power descriptions to be pretty good. You should see the horror that is CO´s descriptions, even now that Ive capped a character, I sometimes cant make heads or tails out of [Removed for Content] the power is supposed to do

Jusztin

06-26-2010, 07:09 PM

The house item "Overclocked Tinkered Control Button" looks much better on shader 1.0 coz the yellow glowing effect is too hard with shader3.0, almost all nice detail lost.

Macross_JR

06-26-2010, 08:40 PM

Honestly, I know the big wigs and stuff want new players, but I don't think they are going to get a good ROI from spending this time on lower level stuff. There are too many other things that need fixing instead of changing things for the betterment of content people hardly spend any time in. Leveling is so fast I just don't see the need for this at all.

Jrral

06-26-2010, 09:10 PM

<cite>awnya2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know about body pulling and I suppose your right... Its just an unecessary change as I see it.</blockquote>I look at it this way: taunts you'll only use in a group, so it makes sense to delay their introduction until the player's gotten a good handle on the basics of soloing. Body-pulling, OTOH, will be a staple for soloing, grouping and raiding, so get some practice in on it from the start.That's also why I disagree with leaving illy mezzes out at the beginning. As a caster mez-(or root)-and-back-up will be a staple for you so you ought to be learning it from the start.

Venser

06-26-2010, 09:37 PM

the update looks great... but one flaw. taking away the shield requirement is awesome, making it Bash now etc... you say so people who use DW or two handers will be greatful. but can we start making decent two handers to begin with to make it useful???? end game two handers that have blocking abilities w/o having to do end game raiding?? implement useful Two Handers. ty that is all

Gungo

06-27-2010, 03:28 PM

<cite>Seffrid wrote:</cite><blockquote>There aren't enough new players trying the game, or staying with it when they have tried it, so changes are made so as to simplify the game for new players. Veteran players warn that the changes are both bad and unlikely to be effective, but those warnings are ignored and the changes are driven through.Still there aren't enough new players trying the game, or staying with it when they have tried it, so further changes are made so as to simplify even more the game for new players. Veteran players warn that the new changes are also both bad and unlikely to be effective, but those warnings are again ignored and the changes are driven through.Now there still aren't enough new players trying the game, or staying with it when they have tried it, so yet more changes are made so as to simplify even more the game for new players. Veteran players warn that the new changes are also both bad and unlikely to be effective, but those warnings are yet again ignored and the changes are driven through.Anyone see a trend here? Making yet more attempts to dumb down the game isn't resulting in the requested boost in new players so why not listen to the veterans and spend some resources on fixing the things they believe need fixing and see if that has a better result?EQ2 isn't holding/attracting players like a certain other game not because it's not similar enough to that game but because it's not different enough to it. I think that's a point that hasn't yet been grasped by the grey suits and those directed by them to make more and more rounds of changes to a game that has been steadily losing its direction under successive producers since the only one who really understood all this, Scott Hartsman, left. I actually have confidence that unlike the others the present one will get the point in time, I just hope he doesn't leave it too long.</blockquote>The ironic part of all this is veteran players complaining about changes that don't effect then claiming they know better then anyone else. When these changes are based on notes taken during VOIP of ACTUAL new players complaining. Nothing was removed from the game they are just no longer auto granted so as a veteran you can acquire these spells if you wish STILL. But for those people whose complaints are actually the basis for these changes. These changes are meant for them.

Deson

06-27-2010, 03:35 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seffrid wrote:</cite><blockquote>There aren't enough new players trying the game, or staying with it when they have tried it, so changes are made so as to simplify the game for new players. Veteran players warn that the changes are both bad and unlikely to be effective, but those warnings are ignored and the changes are driven through.Still there aren't enough new players trying the game, or staying with it when they have tried it, so further changes are made so as to simplify even more the game for new players. Veteran players warn that the new changes are also both bad and unlikely to be effective, but those warnings are again ignored and the changes are driven through.Now there still aren't enough new players trying the game, or staying with it when they have tried it, so yet more changes are made so as to simplify even more the game for new players. Veteran players warn that the new changes are also both bad and unlikely to be effective, but those warnings are yet again ignored and the changes are driven through.Anyone see a trend here? Making yet more attempts to dumb down the game isn't resulting in the requested boost in new players so why not listen to the veterans and spend some resources on fixing the things they believe need fixing and see if that has a better result?EQ2 isn't holding/attracting players like a certain other game not because it's not similar enough to that game but because it's not different enough to it. I think that's a point that hasn't yet been grasped by the grey suits and those directed by them to make more and more rounds of changes to a game that has been steadily losing its direction under successive producers since the only one who really understood all this, Scott Hartsman, left. I actually have confidence that unlike the others the present one will get the point in time, I just hope he doesn't leave it too long.</blockquote>The ironic part of all this is veteran players complaining about changes that don't effect then claiming they know better then anyone else. When these changes are based on notes taken during VOIP of ACTUAL new players complaining. Nothing was removed from the game they are just no longer auto granted so as a veteran you can acquire these spells if you wish STILL. But for those people whose complaints are actually the basis for these changes. These changes are meant for them. </blockquote>Not to take away from what your point is but all I could think is New Coke when I read that.I can't comment more until the extent of the changes are known but, unless something is being done for those same "new players"at the upper levels, any gain will be minor at best.

Macross_JR

06-27-2010, 03:41 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seffrid wrote:</cite><blockquote>There aren't enough new players trying the game, or staying with it when they have tried it, so changes are made so as to simplify the game for new players. Veteran players warn that the changes are both bad and unlikely to be effective, but those warnings are ignored and the changes are driven through.Still there aren't enough new players trying the game, or staying with it when they have tried it, so further changes are made so as to simplify even more the game for new players. Veteran players warn that the new changes are also both bad and unlikely to be effective, but those warnings are again ignored and the changes are driven through.Now there still aren't enough new players trying the game, or staying with it when they have tried it, so yet more changes are made so as to simplify even more the game for new players. Veteran players warn that the new changes are also both bad and unlikely to be effective, but those warnings are yet again ignored and the changes are driven through.Anyone see a trend here? Making yet more attempts to dumb down the game isn't resulting in the requested boost in new players so why not listen to the veterans and spend some resources on fixing the things they believe need fixing and see if that has a better result?EQ2 isn't holding/attracting players like a certain other game not because it's not similar enough to that game but because it's not different enough to it. I think that's a point that hasn't yet been grasped by the grey suits and those directed by them to make more and more rounds of changes to a game that has been steadily losing its direction under successive producers since the only one who really understood all this, Scott Hartsman, left. I actually have confidence that unlike the others the present one will get the point in time, I just hope he doesn't leave it too long.</blockquote>The ironic part of all this is veteran players complaining about changes that don't effect then claiming they know better then anyone else. When these changes are based on notes taken during VOIP of ACTUAL new players complaining. Nothing was removed from the game they are just no longer auto granted so as a veteran you can acquire these spells if you wish STILL. But for those people whose complaints are actually the basis for these changes. These changes are meant for them. </blockquote>My complaint Gungo, is that it took dev time away from veteran players. That is my complaint.

Jrral

06-27-2010, 04:18 PM

<cite>Link27 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dispel Magic as it is now is incredibly useful for Battlegrounds, gets rid of that pesky Divine Aura that enables Crusaders to solo 2 groups.If this change goes in, it would be nice if it stayed as is inside of Battlegrounds.</blockquote>Dispel Magic will still get rid of Divine Aura. It'll just drain mana in addition to dispelling effects. I don't see how it's going to be any less useful, if anything it'll be more useful (effect dispelled plus the target's got less power and you've got more). I can't see how, from the description given, you got the idea that they were removing the dispell-effect component from Dispel Magic.

snowli

06-28-2010, 01:10 PM

When I create new chars it's because both my self and my GF fancy a new character and will be grouped from level 1 on. But on the otherhand we don't care about level 1-20 at all anyway, it's over so fast we don't even bother to craft gear/or spells for it.

obikenkenobi

06-28-2010, 01:32 PM

All right. If the team were trying to get more people into the game...and trying to get more people to play in the lower to mid levels of the game, then why are you all assuming everyone will be soloing? Yes, alot of people love to solo, but many actually play the game to group and be social. (I myself am the soloing type.) If the case is that soloing is how it is going to go, then release a single player version of the game with no subs (and make the raid critters killable by one person too) hehe. I wouldn't assume no one will be grouping. I see people grouping all the time pre 20. Personally, the biggest problem with EQ2, and I'm sure many of the oldest veterans will agree with this, is that the game has become far too easy. When I can roll a coercer and have him to level 80 (Pre SF) within two months (and thats slow even as I've heard of people doing it waaaay faster than that....then somthing is screwy.) Seriously, does anyone think I have a good grasp of the coercer after only 2 months? Thats right...I'm not a good coercer cause I didn't take more time to learn it. I'm a level 80+ noob coercer. Anyway, done with my rant that is probably pointless.

Dasein

06-28-2010, 01:40 PM

<cite>obikenkenobi wrote:</cite><blockquote> All right. If the team were trying to get more people into the game...and trying to get more people to play in the lower to mid levels of the game, then why are you all assuming everyone will be soloing?</blockquote>Probably because SOE doesn't need to make assumptions, they can look at their logs and see exactly how much time people spend soloing and grouping sub-20.

Deson

06-28-2010, 01:45 PM

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>obikenkenobi wrote:</cite><blockquote> All right. If the team were trying to get more people into the game...and trying to get more people to play in the lower to mid levels of the game, then why are you all assuming everyone will be soloing?</blockquote>Probably because SOE doesn't need to make assumptions, they can look at their logs and see exactly how much time people spend soloing and grouping sub-20.</blockquote>Which is a content/design failure since EoF in a group centric game; there is no substantial reward for grouping until you hit the cap because from 1-90 the game is solo oriented. Even as you blaze though levels, it takes knowledgeable manipulation of xp when grouping to keep from ultimately harming yourself.

Rahatmattata

06-28-2010, 01:48 PM

I was all excited to see this thread, and then I saw it is mostly level 1-20 stuff which I could care less about and doesn't affect my game play at all, and now I'm just disappointed.

Jrral

06-28-2010, 02:01 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry if I missed it but was there a stated time when the full iceberg would be revealed for us?I realize you've been working with true newbies but an idea of what exactly you're up to in total would help us vets help you as we have every other time you've attempted revamps and retools. It's very difficult to give feedback without knowing what the plan is.</blockquote>From the looks of the changes, the plan is to drop the auto-grant of primarily-group-oriented abilities in the low tiers (levels 1-20) where players are going to be mostly soloing (you tend to get to 20 just from the starter-area questlines in Timorous Deep and New Halas), and shuffle the initial level you get some abilities at to favor solo-friendly abilities earlier and group-friendly abilities later (eg. a berserker would benefit more from getting Raging Blow in T1 than getting Mock early).Note that I don't see them completely dropping any major abilities. The "drop" they're doing is "don't automatically give players the apprentice version". You could still go buy the apprentice from the trainer, or journeyman or better from the broker or a crafter. Experienced players continue to be able to get everything if they want, but new players don't have to wonder how exactly they use that new button that showed up on their hotbar that doesn't seem to do anything useful (eg. just how useful is a taunt when you're the only one on the mob's hate list?).

Dasein

06-28-2010, 02:05 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>obikenkenobi wrote:</cite><blockquote> All right. If the team were trying to get more people into the game...and trying to get more people to play in the lower to mid levels of the game, then why are you all assuming everyone will be soloing?</blockquote>Probably because SOE doesn't need to make assumptions, they can look at their logs and see exactly how much time people spend soloing and grouping sub-20.</blockquote>Which is a content/design failure since EoF in a group centric game; there is no substantial reward for grouping until you hit the cap because from 1-90 the game is solo oriented. Even as you blaze though levels, it takes knowledgeable manipulation of xp when grouping to keep from ultimately harming yourself.</blockquote>Players rejected the group-centric approach early on, and SOE has been playing catch-up ever since. Scott Hartsman effectively stated that focusing on grouping without providing adequate solo/small group content was a mistake.It's hard for me to see how the content reflects that the game is solo-oriented until level 90. There is a glut of heric zones in the 70-80 range, with RoK and TSO providing many opportunities for grouping. Yes, the overland zones are mostly solo, but the dungeons are and remian heroic.

Deson

06-28-2010, 02:23 PM

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry if I missed it but was there a stated time when the full iceberg would be revealed for us?I realize you've been working with true newbies but an idea of what exactly you're up to in total would help us vets help you as we have every other time you've attempted revamps and retools. It's very difficult to give feedback without knowing what the plan is.</blockquote>From the looks of the changes, the plan is to drop the auto-grant of primarily-group-oriented abilities in the low tiers (levels 1-20) where players are going to be mostly soloing (you tend to get to 20 just from the starter-area questlines in Timorous Deep and New Halas), and shuffle the initial level you get some abilities at to favor solo-friendly abilities earlier and group-friendly abilities later (eg. a berserker would benefit more from getting Raging Blow in T1 than getting Mock early).Note that I don't see them completely dropping any major abilities. The "drop" they're doing is "don't automatically give players the apprentice version". You could still go buy the apprentice from the trainer, or journeyman or better from the broker or a crafter. Experienced players continue to be able to get everything if they want, but new players don't have to wonder how exactly they use that new button that showed up on their hotbar that doesn't seem to do anything useful (eg. just how useful is a taunt when you're the only one on the mob's hate list?).</blockquote>I got that. But if they want to retain newer players there has to be more and the announcement hints that there is more to come. I'm wary of this initial push and it looks like it's just pushing some reckonings to the mid-game creating a new fail point but, it's hard to say anything without knowing a greater portion of the plan.<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>obikenkenobi wrote:</cite><blockquote> All right. If the team were trying to get more people into the game...and trying to get more people to play in the lower to mid levels of the game, then why are you all assuming everyone will be soloing?</blockquote>Probably because SOE doesn't need to make assumptions, they can look at their logs and see exactly how much time people spend soloing and grouping sub-20.</blockquote>Which is a content/design failure since EoF in a group centric game; there is no substantial reward for grouping until you hit the cap because from 1-90 the game is solo oriented. Even as you blaze though levels, it takes knowledgeable manipulation of xp when grouping to keep from ultimately harming yourself.</blockquote>Players rejected the group-centric approach early on, and SOE has been playing catch-up ever since. Scott Hartsman effectively stated that focusing on grouping without providing adequate solo/small group content was a mistake.It's hard for me to see how the content reflects that the game is solo-oriented until level 90. There is a glut of heric zones in the 70-80 range, with RoK and TSO providing many opportunities for grouping. Yes, the overland zones are mostly solo, but the dungeons are and remian heroic.</blockquote>There is a huge difference between adequate solo/small group content and having solo content be the primary advancement path. Because of current AA mechanics especially, grouping for true newbies is a setup for late game failure. The current starters/golden path don't even walk you to group zones( Crushbone but Kelethin sucks) and with just about everything overland being solo, it's easy to not only not group, but not even think about grouping until cap range. It's forgivable if true newbies don't even think there are group zones until the 30's because of the current rails. It may be hard for you but for me it's quite easy. You want to talk the 70-80 range, ok. Karnors is still a bit much for its level range, Chardok and Seb are 80ish for serious play. The instances don't even come close to the reward level per time of investment compared to the solo path and the loot minus some ultra rares is a joke in today's game-- just like it is with all expansions.It's not just me either but the wide and repeated complaints of that era from the launch of RoK to the launch of SF. A huge reason you don't see quite the same with SF isn't because the content fixed it but because the tools to game the system are too easy to ignore if you're so inclined.

zelocka01

06-28-2010, 02:33 PM

I don't see any problems here.You don't need any of these fuctions to group at lower levels.The only argument I could see is for Mez since mez in this game has been religated to solo only for the most part.

Dethdlr

06-28-2010, 03:04 PM

<cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>The current starters/golden path don't even walk you to group zones( Crushbone but Kelethin sucks) and with just about everything overland being solo, it's easy to not only not group, but not even think about grouping until cap range. It's forgivable if true newbies don't even think there are group zones until the 30's because of the current rails. </blockquote>Have you been to Butcherblock lately and done the new questlines? That's where the golden path starts. The new questlines take you into Kaladim if you choose to do the heroic quests. I've got a level 28 coercer that's been offered several quests that take him into Kaladim. Remember, Kaladim was revamped recently as a heroic zone for lower levels. I haven't made it past Butcherblock on the golden path yet so I don't know how much more group content is included along the way, but at least so far, it does lead you to a group zone. I was quite surprised by the changes in Butcherblock. I didn't realize they had changed so much in the zone and added so many quests.This new alt has had a MUCH easier time figuring out what to do next than any other alts I've ever created. I started this one in Timorus Deep to see how the golden path panned out. He made it to level 20 without ever wondering where to go next. He's now working through the quests in Butcherblock and still hasn't had to wonder where to go next. Most of my other alts that started on the islands hit a point where I had to go searching for quests to do. Eventually, I'd just give up and head to Blackburrow or Wailing Caves. I haven't had to do that with this character since there is a clear path of quests to follow. I'm not PREVENTED from going to other places if I choose. I just don't get stuck having to answer the question: "Now what?" after finishing a questline.So far, this is way better than it was way back when I started my first character and had to do the tutorial on the boat before I even saw anybody else (I liked the boat btw).

Vortexelemental

06-28-2010, 03:24 PM

Valdaglerion

06-28-2010, 03:25 PM

In the last year we have heard SOE say time and again the game is in the last tier of play. They have accelerated leveling firstly for 1-70 content and with the level cap for 1-80 now so as a new player you can speed level and join the players where the action is. Marketplace potions, in game claim items, recruit a friend mounts, bonuses for mentoring. All these things have been added in for faster leveling . . .BUT WAIT . . . Now we are spending a ton of dev time tweaking the lower content for new players and this makes no sense to me at all.WHY ? ? ? Prior to the xpac there was a posting on how to level from 1-80 in 7 hours. It took me about 15 last weekend but I also finish the weapon epic for the toon in that time. I had hopes of using New Halas as a primary leveling place for the new toon until I realized upon getting there the mobs for the most part are not KOS which makes mass pulling difficult. The mobs are spread out which means 1 kill, run run run 1 kill, run run run, etc. And the questing, was really slow going for the most part. After 30 minutes I realized what a waste of time it would be. Bought a house, moved on.Now to be fair, if you are a console gamer and primarily solo and in no hurry to level but want to stop and smell the roses its ok. Although I think Darklight Woods is probably more diverse and densely populated for leveling. Gfay is horrible for new players, heck most vets I know with the exception of 1 want to burn the forest down. Avoid the land of the fae at all cost.But really, with level 1-20 content lasting about 2-4 hours for solo players why spend this much time revamping it?Seems it would have made more sense to put better tutorials in the game and add a SC item which allows you to become level 80 instantly. I personally think its only a matter of time before that gets implemented anyway.

Deson

06-28-2010, 04:44 PM

<cite>Decimatr@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Deson wrote:</cite><blockquote>The current starters/golden path don't even walk you to group zones( Crushbone but Kelethin sucks) and with just about everything overland being solo, it's easy to not only not group, but not even think about grouping until cap range. It's forgivable if true newbies don't even think there are group zones until the 30's because of the current rails. </blockquote>Have you been to Butcherblock lately and done the new questlines? That's where the golden path starts. The new questlines take you into Kaladim if you choose to do the heroic quests. I've got a level 28 coercer that's been offered several quests that take him into Kaladim. Remember, Kaladim was revamped recently as a heroic zone for lower levels. I haven't made it past Butcherblock on the golden path yet so I don't know how much more group content is included along the way, but at least so far, it does lead you to a group zone. I was quite surprised by the changes in Butcherblock. I didn't realize they had changed so much in the zone and added so many quests.This new alt has had a MUCH easier time figuring out what to do next than any other alts I've ever created. I started this one in Timorus Deep to see how the golden path panned out. He made it to level 20 without ever wondering where to go next. He's now working through the quests in Butcherblock and still hasn't had to wonder where to go next. Most of my other alts that started on the islands hit a point where I had to go searching for quests to do. Eventually, I'd just give up and head to Blackburrow or Wailing Caves. I haven't had to do that with this character since there is a clear path of quests to follow. I'm not PREVENTED from going to other places if I choose. I just don't get stuck having to answer the question: "Now what?" after finishing a questline.So far, this is way better than it was way back when I started my first character and had to do the tutorial on the boat before I even saw anybody else (I liked the boat btw).</blockquote>I didn't think it sent you to Kaladim that early if you were doing the solo lines. My level range info is tainted by max characters and a desire to slaughter in group zones, thanks for the clarity. Still, there is a good amount of group content long before that range that you currently have to jump through hoops to find out about.I liked the early game but thats a matter of preference. While I immensely enjoy the addition of solo content and support for those times you can't get a group, from my perspective, the group game has suffered greatly from the shift. I honestly can't say I've really enjoyed the open dungeons since EoF.

d1anaw

06-28-2010, 04:50 PM

<blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote><ul></ul></blockquote></blockquote>That's exactly what i thought when i read it. I really like how somehow your being told to solo up to level 20 and at that point, miracle, your good to group in FG or SH and know what hate transfer is, what's avoidance on others are!Oh well, I can't use intercept cuz I'm not having it untill level 20 and i don't know what it does!!!As a brig, i cannot count the number of time I use Beg for Mercy (a type of intercept + deaggro) on my healers or on my group's chanter when an AE is about to hit in raids.That wont fix anything at all about not understanding the spells or CA descriptions.</blockquote></blockquote>The irony is this comment is that on a fairly regular basis, I see post after post stating that we are SUPPOSED to raid, we are SUPPOSED to group and that if we do not want to do that, we should not be playing this game because that is the way it is "supposed" to be played, which is a big @@ to me. The funny thing is, that this doesn't affect high level, veteran players who do not CHOOSE to start a new character. So the big question is, why are you in here complaining? I guess some people need to complain, just to complain and my thought would be, yet again, if this game is so horrible, then why are you playing it?

Landiin

06-28-2010, 04:53 PM

About the group solo thing; IMO exp should be multiplied by .016666666666667 per group member. That would give a 10% bonus for being in a full group. There should be an added bonus for grouping other then the rare possibly of fabled drops.

Vortexelemental

07-04-2010, 07:58 PM

The thing is it doesn't remove clutter because they by the time you reach 20 you have over 4 hotbars full of icons if you haven't touched it once.The person had a really great idea with this earlier.What really should be done with that is if a lower quality spell is apprentice it should auto replace it with the new tier.Instead of placing the new one on the bar if the old is adept or higher it should put a message in your top right corner stating that You gained Mend II, but your Mend I is of Adept rank or higher. Compare the spells and put the more powerful one in it's place.Just taking spells off the auto-grant list is silly.If you want to remove clutter merge more buffs together instead of keeping them all seperate. Or do the above.Heck, why not just make it so those spells aren't auto placed on the hotbar but you get them in your knowledge book?There's plenty of options without just making things more difficult to those who want to group in the lowest tier.

Axiana

07-04-2010, 08:32 PM

So if my paladin's taunts are adept3 I won't lose them? My Paladin is level 15, locked and currently doing as much content as possible at each level before moving to the next.. and yes I group and have done since level 1. Taunts are required so the squishy doesn't die.

Vortexelemental

07-04-2010, 10:20 PM

<cite>Axiana wrote:</cite><blockquote>So if my paladin's taunts are adept3 I won't lose them? My Paladin is level 15, locked and currently doing as much content as possible at each level before moving to the next.. and yes I group and have done since level 1. Taunts are required so the squishy doesn't die.</blockquote>Hopefully but that's assuming everything works correctly.

TuinalOfTheNexus

07-05-2010, 02:14 PM

I'm really baffled and concerned by a lot of this.Smokejumper, by his own admission, has basically come in having never really played EQ2. He's now dabbled a bit at low level and is pushing forward some minor changes based on his experiences.Asides from the fact this isn't a great scenario for a senior producer to be in, the changes by and large are either trivial or debatable in terms of their benefit. Not giving fighters taunts at low level, for example, on the assumption that they'll be soloing; what about HOs that required taunts to link? The original newbie island did a good job of explaining to players their role in a group and reinforced this by some direct, and some subtle, design. Requiring a fighter taunt in a solo HO got them in a rythym of using them regularly. But I'm not really going to go into the minutae of a bunch of trivial changes. Trivial both in design, and because nobody plays the low level game for an appreciable amount of time.What I'm most concerned by, is SmokeJumper's early profile, which seems to be of a guy learning the game from scratch, unresponsive to major balance issues due to a complete lack of knowledge of the high-end game, and only responding in any meaningful way to posts that have station exchange in the title. Will what's left of the player base really be willing to wait for him to grind to 90, then raid for 6 months, before he's in a position to really offer any design insight? Is an abject silence across balance issues really helped by a lightning-fast response to an 'exchange server down!' thread?There were already concerns from the player base at the appointment of a guy that oversaw PlanetSide, a game with awesome but largely unrealised potential, through a period of decline. He's really done very little to address these concerns and in fact most of his posts reinforce the image of a guy with very little knowledge of EQ2, under pressure from SoE suits to focus on station exchange and the same 'getting new players is better than retaining current ones!' philosophy that was behind Star Wars Galaxies NGE disaster.

LardLord

07-05-2010, 04:21 PM

<cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm really baffled and concerned by a lot of this.Smokejumper, by his own admission, has basically come in having never really played EQ2. He's now dabbled a bit at low level and is pushing forward some minor changes based on his experiences.Asides from the fact this isn't a great scenario for a senior producer to be in, the changes by and large are either trivial or debatable in terms of their benefit. Not giving fighters taunts at low level, for example, on the assumption that they'll be soloing; what about HOs that required taunts to link? The original newbie island did a good job of explaining to players their role in a group and reinforced this by some direct, and some subtle, design. Requiring a fighter taunt in a solo HO got them in a rythym of using them regularly. But I'm not really going to go into the minutae of a bunch of trivial changes. Trivial both in design, and because nobody plays the low level game for an appreciable amount of time.What I'm most concerned by, is SmokeJumper's early profile, which seems to be of a guy learning the game from scratch, unresponsive to major balance issues due to a complete lack of knowledge of the high-end game, and only responding in any meaningful way to posts that have station exchange in the title. Will what's left of the player base really be willing to wait for him to grind to 90, then raid for 6 months, before he's in a position to really offer any design insight? Is an abject silence across balance issues really helped by a lightning-fast response to an 'exchange server down!' thread?There were already concerns from the player base at the appointment of a guy that oversaw PlanetSide, a game with awesome but largely unrealised potential, through a period of decline. He's really done very little to address these concerns and in fact most of his posts reinforce the image of a guy with very little knowledge of EQ2, under pressure from SoE suits to focus on station exchange and the same 'getting new players is better than retaining current ones!' philosophy that was behind Star Wars Galaxies NGE disaster.</blockquote>Eh, that's not really fair, in my opinion. For one, he has had meaningful posts about addressing lag. I doubt we'd ever even get hardware upgrades under the former producer. Second, while he obviously likes microtransactions (as a bunch of people in the industry apparently do), he already toned down his plans for them in this game based on player feedback. And I guess third, a bunch of fighters have already posted in this thread about how using non-positional taunts is a waste of time, so maybe that "great job" the game had been doing teaching fighters to use those abilities was actually counter-productive?

Jrral

07-05-2010, 07:22 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote> And I guess third, a bunch of fighters have already posted in this thread about how using non-positional taunts is a waste of time, so maybe that "great job" the game had been doing teaching fighters to use those abilities was actually counter-productive?</blockquote>Well, two things. First, in the early game (the starter areas) where Smokejumper's doing the ability changes, taunts of any sort are semi-useless. A large fraction of new players won't have any friends (yet) to group with, and the content goes so quickly that they'll be level 20 before they've really developed any contacts. And honestly, in those levels the mobs die so quickly that it's better to concentrate on how to kill them and not worry too much about aggro control. Second, at all levels taunts and damage generate hate 1-for-1, so taunts currently generate not even as much hate as a single auto-attack hit would. Fixing that requires a fundamental change in how hate works, so that 1 point of taunt would generate more hate than 1 point of damage. I think that's a better way to address the issue, but it'd take a lot of balancing to make it effective without making it too effective.

Armawk

07-05-2010, 07:39 PM

It is also important to understand what the job of Producer is and is not. It is not 'know more in detail about each person's job than they do'. It is the class dev's job to understand the details of class balance (whether they do or not is another issue) and then the producers job to work with them to make sure what they want to do fits in with overall ideas on game direction.The same goes for art, mechanics, server programming or whatever else. No producer has ever been an expert on any of those areas, unless they were promoted from one of them, and even then they will soon lose track of details as they work on too many things.The producers role in something like this change is going to be to tell the relevant team he feels the spell progression for a new player is a bit of a mess and too cluttered and confusing, and ask them to present ideas for improving and streamlining it. No doubt that is what happened.Believe me, you do NOT want a micromanaging detail freak who goes around saying 'change this detailed stat for illusionists like THIS' as a producer.

Vortexelemental

07-06-2010, 04:37 PM

<cite>SmokeJumper wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorcerers:<ul><li><div>Nullify and Cease were not needed at level 10 so they were removed from the auto-grant list. They are detaunts like Evade.</div></li></ul></blockquote>Excuse me, I didn't notice this before but you know those don't just de-agro?They have components to stop an opponent from attacking.Taking that away gives one less survival option.

Gargamel

07-12-2010, 02:56 PM

Not to throw another log on the fire but once upon a time doing level 1 - 20 took longer than the short single sitting it does today. I remember a long time ago a dev commented that they increased xp a bunch of times because even though they were adding 10 levels every other expansion, they wanted the time to cap to stay the same each time. Well somewhere that math got blown to hell, the time it took me to do 1-50 was by far the longest (by several times) and there wasn't even AA back then.People did the noobie isle (after the boatride intro), then had to gain citizenship (with the 2 cities that you can't even live in anymore), did all kinds of local quests in your little burg you decided to call home within the city (which make no sense now), did armor quests etc. Get this... there were heroic mobs in commonlands! *GASP* I mean like right out there, in the OVERLAND! You actually had to group for some stuff, it was craaaaaazy. Trying to cross Nek forest by yourself at level 20 was an adventure.So now that they dumbed down the first 20 levels and made gaining those levels to "wow-ingly" fast, not to mention blow past solo friendly to SOLO-REQURIED... they can remove the skills that they directly and intentionally made useless through the earlier BS.Priceless.

Dimhammer

07-12-2010, 03:54 PM

I just don't understand why the developers keep dumbing down the game. There never was anything hard or complex about levels 1-20, ever. Even when the game first launched. I read a comment a few pages back about someone saying they had 4 full hotbars by the time they were lvl 20. Learn to organize!! I've never had more than 2 full hotbars by lvl 20 and I've played every class up to at least 20 in the past.For months if not years now I've watched my beloved EQ2 continue to be dumbed down and made easier and it makes me sad. Please oh please bring back some skill to the game.

SageGaspar

07-12-2010, 05:06 PM

RandomStream

07-17-2010, 08:13 AM

SmokeJumper's basic assumption that you don't group until you reach 20 is rash. The best group I work with started as level 1 and progressed together. We were a 4 toon group, we added a Warlock at about level 50. Everybody in the group knows what the group can do and what their role in the group is. Starting soloing gives the WRONG idea of what your role in the group is. Root and Nuke is great for soloing as a mage, but what Shadowknight wants the mage rooting the mobs all over the place when he wants to use Tap Veins. A Group or Raid is a TEAM working to achieve a common objective, training the players to work in ways that emphasise the solo abilities of their class is a bad idea. What the game needs is Low Dungeons that players want to do, SH and FG are good examples, but we could really use a couple at 10. The Caves and the Ruins are not quite right. A dungeon that starts at level 1 and needs a group to do it would be great fun, but probably not worth the developer time to build it.Keep the low level group skills, taunts, detaunts and mezzs in plain view by continuing the autogrant of these abilities; give us somewhere we want to go to use them, so we start using our group skills early and well.

Rashaak

07-19-2010, 06:02 PM

Ya know...instead of making all these changes to "supposedly" help newcomers and such, why not just put Level potions on the market place.For 10 levels it's 10 bucksFor 20 levels it's 20 bucksFor 30 levels its 30 bucksetc etc etcFor AA, just do a potion of 25 AA for 25 bucks!Screw learning how to play your class, because...well...at level 90 you have to re-learn your class anyways for the new content + raid content.Why not make a buck off of it...instead of ...well... saying this skill is useless or that skill so we are gonna change it.I mean...just give the newcomers their insta-level potions...and save your employees a lot of work... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" />

MurFalad

07-27-2010, 10:37 AM

Some people here are implying here that until our producer raids he cannot comment on the game? I think there is and always should be a lot more to EQ2 then just grind to 90 and start raiding, I've played a game where everything was trivial apart from the latest raid zone, and there I had no interest in paying a sub just to play once a week in a 2 room raid.

Laiina

07-27-2010, 11:31 AM

<cite>RandomStream wrote:</cite><blockquote>SmokeJumper's basic assumption that you don't group until you reach 20 is rash.... </blockquote>I disagree, unless you consider two people a group, I see almost no grouping before 25 or so, when the dungeons such as ROV etc start coming into play.One thing that might be good eventually is some sort of test to get past level 20, where you have to show that you actually know the basic skill set you have then.

Dethdlr

07-27-2010, 02:05 PM

<cite>Decimatr@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I recently started playing a brand new coercer alt so the new character experience is fresh in my mind. It's come a long way and I commend the efforts to take it even further. It looks like some of these changes are intended to keep you from spending as much time fiddling with your hotbars. As part of that effort I'd like to suggest a new checkbox in the options that is turned on by default for new characters:Auto-Upgrade Apprentice Spells/CAs on HotbarsYou start a new character and get a few spells/CAs. Several levels later, you get upgrades to those spells/CAs. You now stop what you're doing to remove the old ones from your hotbars and replace them with the new ones. No, it doesn't take long but it still pulls you out of the playing experience and forces you to fiddle with your hotbars every level. It would be much better if the upgrades just replaced the exisiting spell/CA icons if you still have the Apprentice version on your hotbars. If you upgraded it to Adept, Journeyman, etc. then add it to your hotbar just like it does today. But if it's obviously an upgrade, just replace it. For those that don't want them automatically replaced, turn off the option. For new players though, they would only have to deal with NEW spells/CAs and where to put the icons instead of upgrades to existing ones.Besides, I'm sure Rothgar or someone else there would love the challenge of coding this. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> </blockquote><cite>From the Test Update Notes:</cite><blockquote>•If a new spell is a newer version of an old spell on your hotbar it will replace the older version rather than adding a new button on your hotbar.</blockquote>Close enough! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Woot!

Kasar

07-28-2010, 07:33 AM

<cite>Laiina wrote:</cite><blockquote>I disagree, unless you consider two people a group, I see almost no grouping before 25 or so, when the dungeons such as ROV etc start coming into play.</blockquote>Wailing Caves used to be popular, and pretty fast to grind through the teens if you could get a semblance of a group together. Blackburrow also used to be a busy place. They're probably all solo mobs by now though.There are two starting areas now that are extremely solo-friendly up to roughly level 20, so there's a reason nobody groups. It's both not necessary and actually hindering when all mobs are solo mobs, so this is apparently by design.

Mermut

07-30-2010, 02:15 AM

One major problem with with not giving taunts to characters until level 15 or higher... the skills will be hopelessly low when they do start using them.. so the taunts will be ineffective. If a warrior doesn't get taunts, and can't start working on the aggression skill until level 15, they'll be at 5/75 and 70 skill points in the hole. That is a massive handicap!

Besual

07-30-2010, 03:35 AM

<cite>Mermut wrote:</cite><blockquote>One major problem with with not giving taunts to characters until level 15 or higher... the skills will be hopelessly low when they do start using them.. so the taunts will be ineffective. If a warrior doesn't get taunts, and can't start working on the aggression skill until level 15, they'll be at 5/75 and 70 skill points in the hole. That is a massive handicap!</blockquote>Taunt is very eas to catch up: every taunt will increase the skill by one. In your case you will have to press the taunt button to max out the taunt skill.

Surculus

07-30-2010, 06:07 AM

Why don't you change/remove/improve things that actually need the attention lol

RandomStream

08-01-2010, 07:00 AM

<cite>Laiina wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>RandomStream wrote:</cite><blockquote>SmokeJumper's basic assumption that you don't group until you reach 20 is rash.... </blockquote>I disagree, unless you consider two people a group, I see almost no grouping before 25 or so, when the dungeons such as ROV etc start coming into play.One thing that might be good eventually is some sort of test to get past level 20, where you have to show that you actually know the basic skill set you have then.</blockquote>Should I assume you solo Stormhold and Fallen Gate? Or do not like the zones? They certainly can be done below 25, and possibly a LOT lower by a well organised group.The test of competence is interesting idea, but I'm not sure it would be well received. I seem to remember a Citizenship test at Level 7, and Class Selection Tests at 9 and 19. Oh the joys of sneaking my Level 9 Scout through Antonica with just few Treasured chest drops and tier 1 handcrafted kit, just so he could become a Bard! Happy Days <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

DeathtoGnomes

08-09-2010, 04:04 PM

i am a newbie to EQ2i rolled a Templar and is Level 50, things I see that need adjusting are minor it seems.I realized that templar suck at soloing when I had seen a melee class that was 12 levels lower then me defeat a mob group that would normally kill my character. So I think that 1) my class needs a bit more defense, possible just a slight boost when using a shield or straight defense boost. 2) decreased chance to interupt direct healing spells. 3) Since clerics were have only 2 "real" damage spells an increase to the damage output from "heroic opportunity" would be nice or an AA that adds a multiplier for it.Also would like to see to bigger difference between Restoration and Meloriate(?) in heal strength and cast time. The Vital intercession line should either stop or have Focused Intervention line merged into it, just reduce casting and cooldown/reuse timers. A merging of those 2 with an increase of triggers per level of spell (remove duration in favor of triggered) is more flexible use the both as seperate spells. It does seem like a waste of spell space as is, so make a single and a group version. As it stands now there are way to too many different ways to cast a heal, redundancy is anti-creative.

Terron

08-10-2010, 07:24 AM

<cite>Dethdlr@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Decimatr@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I recently started playing a brand new coercer alt so the new character experience is fresh in my mind. It's come a long way and I commend the efforts to take it even further. It looks like some of these changes are intended to keep you from spending as much time fiddling with your hotbars. As part of that effort I'd like to suggest a new checkbox in the options that is turned on by default for new characters:Auto-Upgrade Apprentice Spells/CAs on HotbarsYou start a new character and get a few spells/CAs. Several levels later, you get upgrades to those spells/CAs. You now stop what you're doing to remove the old ones from your hotbars and replace them with the new ones. No, it doesn't take long but it still pulls you out of the playing experience and forces you to fiddle with your hotbars every level. It would be much better if the upgrades just replaced the exisiting spell/CA icons if you still have the Apprentice version on your hotbars. If you upgraded it to Adept, Journeyman, etc. then add it to your hotbar just like it does today. But if it's obviously an upgrade, just replace it. For those that don't want them automatically replaced, turn off the option. For new players though, they would only have to deal with NEW spells/CAs and where to put the icons instead of upgrades to existing ones.Besides, I'm sure Rothgar or someone else there would love the challenge of coding this. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> </blockquote><cite>From the Test Update Notes:</cite><blockquote>•If a new spell is a newer version of an old spell on your hotbar it will replace the older version rather than adding a new button on your hotbar.</blockquote>Close enough! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Woot!</blockquote>Please don't do this, or at least give us an option to turn it off.Whilst it might seem good at low levels at higher levels the new spell is often worse than the old one. Particularly if you reached cap and get nearly fully mastered. The new apprentice spells are a big downgrade compared to old masters and experts. An expert spell is usually only a marginal upgrade on the previous tier master.Ideally it would only replace if the new spell were truely an upgrade, but whilst that can be easily determined for some spells (take the one that does the most damage) for others it can be tricky - is a longer duration mez better than a harder to resist mez?

RandomStream

08-10-2010, 11:16 AM

<cite>Terron@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dethdlr@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Decimatr@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I recently started playing a brand new coercer alt so the new character experience is fresh in my mind. It's come a long way and I commend the efforts to take it even further. It looks like some of these changes are intended to keep you from spending as much time fiddling with your hotbars. As part of that effort I'd like to suggest a new checkbox in the options that is turned on by default for new characters:Auto-Upgrade Apprentice Spells/CAs on HotbarsYou start a new character and get a few spells/CAs. Several levels later, you get upgrades to those spells/CAs. You now stop what you're doing to remove the old ones from your hotbars and replace them with the new ones. No, it doesn't take long but it still pulls you out of the playing experience and forces you to fiddle with your hotbars every level. It would be much better if the upgrades just replaced the exisiting spell/CA icons if you still have the Apprentice version on your hotbars. If you upgraded it to Adept, Journeyman, etc. then add it to your hotbar just like it does today. But if it's obviously an upgrade, just replace it. For those that don't want them automatically replaced, turn off the option. For new players though, they would only have to deal with NEW spells/CAs and where to put the icons instead of upgrades to existing ones.Besides, I'm sure Rothgar or someone else there would love the challenge of coding this. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> </blockquote><cite>From the Test Update Notes:</cite><blockquote>•If a new spell is a newer version of an old spell on your hotbar it will replace the older version rather than adding a new button on your hotbar.</blockquote>Close enough! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Woot!</blockquote>Please don't do this, or at least give us an option to turn it off.Whilst it might seem good at low levels at higher levels the new spell is often worse than the old one. Particularly if you reached cap and get nearly fully mastered. The new apprentice spells are a big downgrade compared to old masters and experts. An expert spell is usually only a marginal upgrade on the previous tier master.Ideally it would only replace if the new spell were truely an upgrade, but whilst that can be easily determined for some spells (take the one that does the most damage) for others it can be tricky - is a longer duration mez better than a harder to resist mez?</blockquote>Completely agree! At high levels new apprentice spells are not nearly good enough. But that is probably because the improvement in the Master is only slight - so everything else is only slightly better as wellThere needs to be a toggle so we can change the auto update off. At low levels the upgrades are worth having but at high level "No thank you"