Toxxuila potency too high since LU56? [Archive]

Ventisly

06-10-2010, 05:49 AM

Vacations finally were mostly ended so we went into LotDQ to work on Hard Toxx again last night. The AOEs are hitting much harder than they were back on May 12th and I'm guessing that it's related to the potency problem that was effecting some of the other mobs that have since been adjusted.Here's the captures of the AOE values from May 12th:<img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/001/748/474.JPG" />And here's the captures from last night (June 6th):<img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/001/748/472.JPG" />These AOEs are 32 to 34% stronger than they were previously. Is this intentional or can it get adjusted back to the original values?

crazsliz

06-10-2010, 06:47 AM

I agree our guild spent around two hours taking pulls on Hard Tox to only find that we actually lost a lot of progress. The Aoe's hit much harder then they were before LU56. As a tank running well over 20+ resists and still getting hit for around the 30-40k range seems a bit extreme.

Xenith

06-10-2010, 09:18 AM

This is true for ALL mobs in the GAME. EVEN THE ONES THEY 'FIXED' IE. Waansu. Please fix, it crippled my guild progression and alot of others since in order to kill these mobs in their new state, you need loot FROM these mobs

Xenith

06-10-2010, 09:19 AM

can you edit the title to 'pictures inside' or something to entice the red named?

Draylore

06-10-2010, 11:39 AM

We've taken down Tox Hard twice now ...both times since the GU. Last thurs (6/3/2010) and this past tues (6/8/2010).No clue how that compares to before GU but DMG didnt seem all the bad ...at least compared to when we were first trying it.

NaeenSpeedbringer

06-10-2010, 12:17 PM

<cite>Draylore wrote:</cite><blockquote>We've taken down Tox Hard twice now ...both times since the GU. Last thurs (6/3/2010) and this past tues (6/8/2010).No clue how that compares to before GU but DMG didnt seem all the bad ...at least compared to when we were first trying it.</blockquote>we've taken down hard tox twice since the GU as compared to four or five times before it. she is undoubtedly hitting harder. enough so that we had to change our strat some. if you have no clue how the damage compares to before the GU, then don't post. posts like yours encourage the dev's to not do anything because they figure it is just a few guilds imagining things. all of the hard mode mobs have had their aoes increased by 20-40%, making the ones that were borderline for some guilds before the GU impossible to kill now. even AFTER the latest "fix" waansu is still hitting 20% harder than he was before the GU.

Yimway

06-10-2010, 01:28 PM

OP, I hope you PM'd Gninja this information as well.

Kahling

06-10-2010, 02:15 PM

I run a non hc raid guild that has been making steady progress since release.We have some HM mobs under our belts and the next in progression is Tox.We went in there last Thursday and got Vuulan down and got Tox to 80%, but there is no way with our healer configuration were gonna do any better, and this is with the entire raid with mostly T2 and some T3 items.We have sussed the strat, we have the heals for pre GU56, I just feel totally ripped off tbh.If we had got her down a month before we would probably have the gear now to comfortably take her hitting harder.It's been 2 weeks now and I notice the update has gone in and there fixing new raids and no mention of the raid mobs they have broken. I would rather time was spent sorting this out before we got new raids tbh.RegardsKahling

Malacha

06-10-2010, 02:39 PM

I have a feeling this bug isn't restricted to raid mobs. The failed experiment mobs in the watery room in VD:Labs are now also hitting for upwards of 22k... in what used to be a relatively easy zone.But I agree on Hard Tox... our guild has started pulls on her, and it is unbearably frustrating to get hit with Fetid Torrent, where the first hit is ~4-6k and the second hit 22-30k (tho they land at the same time so you're gonna die, period). To me and my inexperienced eye, its like we mitigate the initial hit but that second hit completely ignores resists and crit mit. Or maybe its always done that, can't say as we didn't really earnestly start pulling HM Tox till last week.

Aule

06-10-2010, 03:02 PM

All damage appears to be higher since the GU56. And I mean all damage. Weapons, spells and combat arts for players are all higher than they used to be, and mob damage as well. I don't just mean because potency was uncapped too. I mean at the base level.

Kunaak

06-10-2010, 04:09 PM

oh hell, another fubard mob?yay...next time you guys deciede to mess with a major game mechanic, double check to see how it effects raid content. theres few things as annoying as having to relearn content you been killing for months cause a game update screwed something up.

Morghus

06-10-2010, 04:14 PM

I find it somewhat humorous that these mobs actually had over 100% potency in the first place. Not only are there hardly any potency debuffs at all in the game, but they surely must have known their own cap on the mechanic back then while designing them. Seems to be a lot of overbuffing to mob stats to make potential debuffs worthless.

Tehom

06-10-2010, 04:16 PM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have a feeling this bug isn't restricted to raid mobs. The failed experiment mobs in the watery room in VD:Labs are now also hitting for upwards of 22k... in what used to be a relatively easy zone.But I agree on Hard Tox... our guild has started pulls on her, and it is unbearably frustrating to get hit with Fetid Torrent, where the first hit is ~4-6k and the second hit 22-30k (tho they land at the same time so you're gonna die, period). To me and my inexperienced eye, its like we mitigate the initial hit but that second hit completely ignores resists and crit mit. Or maybe its always done that, can't say as we didn't really earnestly start pulling HM Tox till last week.</blockquote>I think the second hit you're talking about is the focus hit penalty for not curing Fetid Torrent before it expires when you have on Arcane Winds or Piercing Pestilence. Either that or a Toxic Timebomb going off from an uncured curse. Neither Fetid Torrent nor Arcane Winds are dots, I think.

Kahling

06-10-2010, 04:26 PM

Yes all mobs are hitting harder than before, Waansu was mentioned a fix went in that didn't fix it and its still hitting for higher than pre GU56, (this is a mob we killed about 6 times before gu56 and now we need 10 healers and the fight isnt as fun (this was my fave fight before))I do hope that people arent going to have to start a thread about every single mob to get them fixed one by one?Whatever was done needs removing until they can be fixed.

Kahling

06-10-2010, 04:34 PM

Yes all mobs are hitting harder than before, Waansu was mentioned a fix went in that didn't fix it and its still hitting for higher than pre GU56, (this is a mob we killed about 6 times before gu56 and now we need 10 healers and the fight isnt as fun (this was my fave fight before))I do hope that people arent going to have to start a thread about every single mob to get them fixed one by one.Whatever was done needs removing until they can be fixed.

StaticLex

06-10-2010, 04:40 PM

This mob was never affected by the potency bug. My guild killed it during and after the bug and we noticed nothing different. Waansu however..

Ventisly

06-10-2010, 05:11 PM

<cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite><blockquote>This mob was never affected by the potency bug. My guild killed it during and after the bug and we noticed nothing different. Waansu however..</blockquote>Oh whew, glad you cleared that up with all those facts and figures! Guess there's nothing to see here and the screenshots I posted were just a figment of my imagination. Amazing! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" />

psisto

06-10-2010, 05:24 PM

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes all mobs are hitting harder than before, Waansu was mentioned a fix went in that didn't fix it and its still hitting for higher than pre GU56, (this is a mob we killed about 6 times before gu56 and now we need 10 healers and the fight isnt as fun (this was my fave fight before))I do hope that people arent going to have to start a thread about every single mob to get them fixed one by one?Whatever was done needs removing until they can be fixed.</blockquote>Well, since we can now confirm that pretty much all of SF and TSO heroic/epic content is hitting harder, how about someone runs a database fix and resets all the > 100% potency values to =100%? it shouldnt take that long, and with a lil bit of SQL magic, it should only take a minute really, and solve the problem for now.Me im personally just annoyed that ive finally have a potent trio to tackle TSO instances for shards, but after GU56 the mobs hit so [Removed for Content] hard that we cant even clear the trash without almost dieing and losing all our power in the process. Any adds would be our certain doom. So please, not only for the sake of raiders, but honestly for the sake of casual groupers, heroic and epic enthusiasts:PLEASE with a cherry ontop, fix the potency, for ALL mobs, not only for toxx/waansu/theer and those other few where people cry. Something IS wrong with TSO shard content as well and its currenty leading the shard system at absurdum for us, since we just CANT tackle the content to get better gear.

Malacha

06-10-2010, 06:27 PM

<cite>psistorm wrote:</cite><blockquote>Me im personally just annoyed that ive finally have a potent trio to tackle TSO instances for shards, but after GU56 the mobs hit so [Removed for Content] hard that we cant even clear the trash without almost dieing and losing all our power in the process. Any adds would be our certain doom. So please, not only for the sake of raiders, but honestly for the sake of casual groupers, heroic and epic enthusiasts:PLEASE with a cherry ontop, fix the potency, for ALL mobs, not only for toxx/waansu/theer and those other few where people cry. Something IS wrong with TSO shard content as well and its currenty leading the shard system at absurdum for us, since we just CANT tackle the content to get better gear.</blockquote>Now that you mention it, I did the 3 guk instances the other day and was surprised at how very hard the adds were hitting on the last mob in Outer Stronghold. It would one-shot the group unless they were clear across the room when they spawned.

psisto

06-11-2010, 09:58 AM

Ive talked about this in the other AE topic, trying to raise awareness. Im glad other people notice this too. My experience was this, for scion of ice:- Pre-GU56: my lvl 80 inq mentored to mid 50s and a horribly undergeared (T4 MC str/int) SK, we got right up to the first boss, couldnt kill the first wisp for lack of DPS and energy later on, evac´d out, we didnt get killed though- post-GU56: 80 inq mentored to 75, SK now 75 and cloud mount armor, divine aura, also a 76 assassin with us for more DPS. the first set of linked ^^ completely OWNED the group, 2k+ AEs landing on us and 1.4k power drains. first pull was a disaster, tank died way too fast. second pull we cleared the first set of trash, but all 3 of us were completely out of power, we decided to call it and do something else.So yeah... please dont only fix the top-end raid mobs. The TSO shard system is also very much affected right now, and I really DONT want to do more of the daily solo to grind shards, its getting a bit tedious. We were just getting ready to trio the easy instances, and GU56 pretty much ruined our chances at ever getting T1 or even T2 without months of solo grinding :/ - heck I cant even solo heal the easy peasy instances anymore with damage like that, and i consider myself pretty decent for being a casual player.

Sedenten

06-11-2010, 11:36 AM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote>But I agree on Hard Tox... our guild has started pulls on her, and it is unbearably frustrating to get hit with Fetid Torrent, where the first hit is ~4-6k and the second hit 22-30k (tho they land at the same time so you're gonna die, period). To me and my inexperienced eye, its like we mitigate the initial hit but that second hit completely ignores resists and crit mit. Or maybe its always done that, can't say as we didn't really earnestly start pulling HM Tox till last week.</blockquote>I've always thought that's how Fetid Torrent operates--the initial hit was negligible (as long as you were properly positioned) but if allowed to tick it was a death sentence. I haven't honestly noticed too much of a difference pre-patch and post-patch. I'm not disputing the screenshots, however, but just making an observation from my guild's point of view. We killed Toxx the same night as the potency changes went in and didn't notice anything different. It does seem the Toxx AOE is much less forgiving if you get out of position, however (i.e. Toxx flips around right as an AOE fires or you get too far up the flank or directly in front of the dragon). The initial doesn't seem to be any worse than it has always been, but we've been killing Toxx for a bit of time before the potency changes so we could just be geared past the point of noticing it too much. Waansu was definately hitting harder--we wiped repeatedly the same night the potency changes went in due to how hard the AOE's were hitting from any position.

Darkonx

06-11-2010, 12:28 PM

That AOE that was mentioned hits for an initial, and then an INSTANT second hit. It's both a nox and a trauma AE. The first hit is neligible, the second is where it really hurts. Tox is definitely hitting significantly harder post-gu56. Still easily farmable by those who had it on farm status, but it'll be far more difficult for those who are first attempting it.

NaeenSpeedbringer

06-11-2010, 01:04 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>That AOE that was mentioned hits for an initial, and then an INSTANT second hit. It's both a nox and a trauma AE. The first hit is neligible, the second is where it really hurts. Tox is definitely hitting significantly harder post-gu56. Still easily farmable by those who had it on farm status, but it'll be far more difficult for those who are first attempting it.</blockquote>this is exactly correct. the guilds who have always killed toxx first and then vuulan second aren't going to notice too big of a difference because with debuffs on, the extra damage isn't as noticible. the guilds who use one group to keep tox busy while the rest of the raid kills vuulan first will notice a huge difference. before GU56, our group with three healers, two tanks and a dirge had no problem staying alive with tox while the rest of the raid killed vuulan. after GU56, piercing pestilence was one-shotting half of the exact same group standing in the exact same places as before GU56. we have since adjusted, and kill her just fine. but the damage output on her aoes is DEFINITELY higher than before GU56.

Gaige

06-11-2010, 02:55 PM

We kill Vuulan first and I haven't noticed any difference.

Banditman

06-11-2010, 03:01 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>We kill Vuulan first and I haven't noticed any difference.</blockquote>See original post.

Aule

06-11-2010, 03:37 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>We kill Vuulan first and I haven't noticed any difference.</blockquote>See original post.</blockquote>The original post about the aoe's hitting harder post GU56 has nothing to do with Gaige's rebuttal that guilds who kill Toxx second are going to notice a huge difference. We also kill Toxx second and GU56 had no impact at all on our fights vs. Toxx hard. We didn't even realize the damage had been increased.

Banditman

06-11-2010, 04:35 PM

What you "feel" or "realize" are not reality. Reality is clearly on display in the original post.

Yimway

06-11-2010, 04:44 PM

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>What you "feel" or "realize" are not reality. Reality is clearly on display in the original post.</blockquote>It would appear to be so.I would very much like to see an official response in this thread of whether or not things are working as intended.

Gaige

06-11-2010, 05:00 PM

What I do not want is input about HARD mode mobs from guilds who aren't killing them. I was under the impression that HARD mode existed for a reason. If we get all of the HARD mobs nerfed to normal, then why have them at all?

Malacha

06-11-2010, 05:07 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I do not want is input about HARD mode mobs from guilds who aren't killing them. I was under the impression that HARD mode existed for a reason. If we get all of the HARD mobs nerfed to normal, then why have them at all?</blockquote>I don't think anyone wants to nerf the fight. They want it to what it was pre-56, that's all.

Skunkjuice

06-11-2010, 05:16 PM

I love how people continue to ignore the first post that clearly shows things are different. It looks to be 100% indisputable. Whether or not any of you notice a difference is not the point. The fact remains that their AOEs have increased in strength. The data is right there in both the screenshots that have been posted and data that you can see in ACT. People that were killing these hard modes no longer can and that's the major issue here. I'm guessing that the people who don't notice any difference are taking advantage of a nice circular reference that the rest of the guilds who have only killed them a few times can't enjoy. You're using gear that you got off of hard mode mobs to kill the hard mode mobs that drop the gear in the first place. I just wish SOE would explain what is going on here one way or another. Ignoring this change isn't helping anything.

Banditman

06-11-2010, 05:38 PM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think anyone wants to nerf the fight. They want it to what it was pre-56, that's all.</blockquote>QFE.

Yimway

06-11-2010, 05:56 PM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I do not want is input about HARD mode mobs from guilds who aren't killing them. I was under the impression that HARD mode existed for a reason. If we get all of the HARD mobs nerfed to normal, then why have them at all?</blockquote>I don't think anyone wants to nerf the fight. They want it to what it was pre-56, that's all.</blockquote>Yeap.I think we're both in guilds that began working this encounter since GU56, and feel a bit slighted that we're potentially dealing with harder version than those that had it on farm status prior to 56.

Skunkjuice

06-11-2010, 06:14 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I do not want is input about HARD mode mobs from guilds who aren't killing them. I was under the impression that HARD mode existed for a reason. If we get all of the HARD mobs nerfed to normal, then why have them at all?</blockquote>I don't think anyone wants to nerf the fight. They want it to what it was pre-56, that's all.</blockquote>Yeap.I think we're both in guilds that began working this encounter since GU56, and feel a bit slighted that we're dealing with a harder version than those that had it on farm status prior to 56.</blockquote>There. I fixed that for you.

Aule

06-11-2010, 06:23 PM

Player damage and heal amounts are higher post GU56 too. The base damage, not just because of going past 100% potency. If you bring the mob damage back to what it was pre-GU56 then you have effectively nerfed the mobs unless you also revert the boost to player damage.

NaeenSpeedbringer

06-11-2010, 06:32 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>What I do not want is input about HARD mode mobs from guilds who aren't killing them. I was under the impression that HARD mode existed for a reason. If we get all of the HARD mobs nerfed to normal, then why have them at all?</blockquote>how about input from guilds killing tox both before and after GU56 with objective data showing that she is hitting significantly harder? you know... like the initial post in this thread. you have to be the most intentionally obtuse person i have ever seen.

NaeenSpeedbringer

06-11-2010, 06:35 PM

Yimway

06-11-2010, 06:38 PM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote> If you bring the mob damage back to what it was pre-GU56 then you have effectively nerfed the mobs unless you also revert the boost to player damage.</blockquote>If mitigation from players increased as well, you might be onto something.I can not heal that which one shots me.

Skunkjuice

06-11-2010, 07:07 PM

Kahling

06-11-2010, 07:27 PM

Guage,For the record there is no way I want this mob nerfing to lower than it was pre 56, I want I exactly the same as it was pre gu56 and all mobs for that matter.The way it is now and your "there is no difference" statement just goes to show the guilds that killed this and other hm mobs in the first month and then farmed them are in a position of "im alright jack", and that's BS cos the playing field should be level.

Gaige

06-11-2010, 07:57 PM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think anyone wants to nerf the fight. They want it to what it was pre-56, that's all.</blockquote>Every post in this thread is from people not killing Toxx, the people who were killing Toxx are still killing Toxx, which means it doesn't need to be changed since its a hard mode boss mob.<div><cite>NaeenSpeedbringer wrote:</cite><blockquote>so GU56 proportionately increased shaman wards to mob aoes to prevent people from getting one-shotted with 20k+ resists and 100%+ crit mit?</blockquote>No one is getting one shotted with 20k resists and 100% crit mit. I have about 14k resist and 112% crit mit and I never joust on Toxx.Kahling@Kithicor wrote:<div><blockquote>The way it is now and your "there is no difference" statement just goes to show the guilds that killed this and other hm mobs in the first month and then farmed them are in a position of "im alright jack", and that's BS cos the playing field should be level.</blockquote>Really? So you should've been able to kill it in TSO gear with 100% crit mit cap and a 100% potency cap? We were able to. Players are stronger now and have more survivability, so if they up the mobs to compensate I see no issue.</div></div>

Kahling

06-11-2010, 08:02 PM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Player damage and heal amounts are higher post GU56 too. The base damage, not just because of going past 100% potency. If you bring the mob damage back to what it was pre-GU56 then you have effectively nerfed the mobs unless you also revert the boost to player damage.</blockquote>I totally see what your saying here. Healers cannot however heal for 2x as much as they could pre gu56, when the mobs can hit for 2x more (rough figure there).However yes, we are now doing more damage, the only way to counter this is to give the mobs more HP akin to the damage, but I am not in favour of this as I dont mind killing a mob in 8 mins instead of 10 for example and see it as if u can sustain for 8 mins then u would of been able to sustain for 10.When all is said and done tho, lets forget all this and remove the changes made, and put the changes back on when the mobs can be put in working with the change. I don't mind waiting a month for the change to come back in, I do mind however this debacle continuing for longer than necessary which I have a feeling were now faced with.I'm proud of any progression my guild makes at whatever speed it makes it, titting about with mobs at this stage in the game and making so that people are not sure whats where compared with pre gu56 is utterly riddiculous, its a total utter mess. REMOVE the changes please, all of them until you have a complete handle on how to make it so the mobs are the same as before the change with the change!.Kahling

Detor

06-11-2010, 08:03 PM

I don't see why they couldn't just come up with an automatic way to check the potency field of each mob, and if over 100 then set it to 100. The cap used to be 100, so it isn't like it's making the mob any easier than it was before the GU and it would sure catch a lot more than waiting for people to mention each mob by name.

Gaige

06-11-2010, 08:04 PM

The crit mit cap was removed also, which is something you have to consider when looking at AEs that hit harder.

Sydares

06-11-2010, 08:08 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>The crit mit cap was removed also, which is something you have to consider when looking at AEs that hit harder.</blockquote>While I sort of see your point, the players that these introductory hardmodes are aimed at will rarely have over 100% crit mit.

Gaige

06-11-2010, 08:10 PM

No hardmode is aimed at introductory raiding. That is why this entire thread fails.

Kahling

06-11-2010, 08:17 PM

Guage said "Really? So you should've been able to kill it in TSO gear with 100% crit mit cap and a 100% potency cap? We were able to. Players are stronger now and have more survivability, so if they up the mobs to compensate I see no issue."Hmm I do know that the first three weeks of the expansion Toxx was unintenionally nerfed and some guilds did kill it during that time before it was brought up to what it was and kept at till gu56.TSO gear didnt have crit bonus or the level of potency we have now. Im sat at 70% crit bonus. 65% potency, I was at arround 4% crit bonus and 0% potency when SF came out.More crit bonus, and more potency means more heals, and more damage, the mob dies faster and the wards heals are bigger.Also TSO didnt have goodies in it like stonewill and the other proc gear we have now.In short the gear in SF is much much better than in TSO so raid guilds that are not the top guilds have killed through the expansion to get to a position of being able to kill Tox through gear upgrades.Should we have been able to kill it at the start? Erm your comming from a guild that cleared TSO mate, you all had 100% crit mit and some avataar gear when u killed tox (even if it wasnt during the first few weeks and its nerfed stage)The guild I am in had an average crit mit of 60% as we didnt clear tso, we also had no avataar loot so we were in a totally different situation than guilds like yours were at the start.We have worked and put the time in and now we have the 100% crit mit and we now have much much better gear than the start and do much more dps than the start, we are in effect ready to kill Tox pre 56 and have progressed to that stage and worked for it.To say that crit mit is all that is different between TSO loot and SF loot is someone talking from cloud cuckoo land which suprises me of you Guage cos I know u have a huge grasp of the games mechanics I don't really believe that you are being honest in your assesment of the situation.Kahling

Kahling

06-11-2010, 08:20 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>No hardmode is aimed at introductory raiding. That is why this entire thread fails.</blockquote>The whole point is that guilds like mine are not introductory raiders, this thread does not "fail", to put it in your leet speak this thread is "win" and your just BSing for the sake of it.Like i said before you have a deep grasp of game mechanics, you should be one of the people in this thread that understands what its about and knows that what people are saying is correct, your posturing is daft.

Kahling

06-11-2010, 08:22 PM

Dev'sPlease remove ALL the changes you made to potency and such so that when we and other guilds kill Toxx no one can say to me or other guilds that it was nerfed in any way compared with pre gu56.I want a fair fight and a fair shot at progression. Currently were not getting it.Kahling

EasternKing

06-11-2010, 08:27 PM

Pretty sure a guild on my server killed Toxx this week for the first time ever.And i am also pretty sure its their first ever HM mob kill.I agree with Gaige, yes its slightly harder than pre 56, but uncapped potency and Crit mit make up for it.

Gaige

06-11-2010, 08:31 PM

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>TSO gear didnt have crit bonus or the level of potency we have now. Im sat at 70% crit bonus. 65% potency, I was at arround 4% crit bonus and 0% potency when SF came out.</blockquote>Avatar gear was nerfed to almost worthless so that shouldn't even be a factor, that said:SEVEN guilds killed it the week of February 20th, which means they would've done it in almost all TSO gear. So if you can't do it now with all SF gear with uncapped crit mit and potency and higher base weapon damage, the problem is with your guild, not with the encounter.

Sydares

06-11-2010, 08:51 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>No hardmode is aimed at introductory raiding. That is why this entire thread fails.</blockquote>I didn't say they were aimed at introductory raiding. Waansu and Toxxulia are the first 'hardmode' encounters a raidforce is expected to deal with. A raidforce that's farmed only Sentinel's Fate easymodes will generally not have higher than 100% crit mit unless they were unfathomably inclined to red adorn for it, so it was a silly comment to make.

Skunkjuice

06-11-2010, 09:25 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think anyone wants to nerf the fight. They want it to what it was pre-56, that's all.</blockquote>Every post in this thread is from people not killing Toxx, the people who were killing Toxx are still killing Toxx, which means it doesn't need to be changed since its a hard mode boss mob.</blockquote>Sorry but that's not the case.

tbone7777

06-11-2010, 09:43 PM

Its ironic that all the ones on here saying the HM mobs shouldnt be changed were the same ones whining about Ark until it was nerfed to the point where they could kill it. I say lets put that mob back, not only where it was, but with ae's that hit even harder.

Rhita

06-11-2010, 09:45 PM

<cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>No hardmode is aimed at introductory raiding. That is why this entire thread fails.</blockquote>I didn't say they were aimed at introductory raiding. Waansu and Toxxulia are the first 'hardmode' encounters a raidforce is expected to deal with. A raidforce that's farmed only Sentinel's Fate easymodes will generally not have higher than 100% crit mit unless they were unfathomably inclined to red adorn for it, so it was a silly comment to make.</blockquote>Actually Waansu should of died after Arkanthas but he was broken. Waansu is the final boss in Labs. As for the general statement, yes AEs across the board are hitting harder. While players are hitting harder and healing for more, i still think hard modes need to be toned down a bit.

Gaige

06-11-2010, 10:14 PM

<cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote>I didn't say they were aimed at introductory raiding. Waansu and Toxxulia are the first 'hardmode' encounters a raidforce is expected to deal with. A raidforce that's farmed only Sentinel's Fate easymodes will generally not have higher than 100% crit mit unless they were unfathomably inclined to red adorn for it, so it was a silly comment to make.</blockquote>Funny to me that you'd think two zone bosses are the first hardmodes guilds are supposed to deal with. What about HM twins, what about HM Maalus, what about HM 3 Sages? All HMs that AREN'T zone bosses.In fact Toxx drops legs, another reason I don't view her as "introductory" or whatever.A guild could be entirely in T2 before pulling Toxx and if they did the interim palace HM's first they'd have some T3 as well.<div><cite>tbone7777 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its ironic that all the ones on here saying the HM mobs shouldnt be changed were the same ones whining about Ark until it was nerfed to the point where they could kill it. I say lets put that mob back, not only where it was, but with ae's that hit even harder.</blockquote>Ark was impossible due to the amount of cure curses required to do the encounter. Even after the nerf only two US guilds have killed it, showing the nerf wasn't as drastic as you're trying to imply.</div>

Ventisly

06-12-2010, 02:14 AM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>Funny to me that you'd think two zone bosses are the first hardmodes guilds are supposed to deal with. What about HM twins, what about HM Maalus, what about HM 3 Sages? All HMs that AREN'T zone bosses.In fact Toxx drops legs, another reason I don't view her as "introductory" or whatever.</blockquote>Not sure where it's written that the last mob in a zone needs to be the hardest.You've been excreting your uber-leet opinion all over this thread but you've neglected to address that the AoEs ARE hitting measurably harder now than they were before LU56. I'm a bit confused what you really want though so please let us know which of the following most closely matches your real opinion:<ol><li>Toxx/Waansu should have been hitting this hard the whole time because they're "zone bosses". Just to be fair, SOE should delete all the ill-gotten gear looted fom these now fixed zone bosses and start everyone over again. </li><li>SOE should adjust AoEs back to their original values to be fair to those guilds that have not yet farmed them.</li><li>Admit that you really don't want it to be fair and that SOE should give the guilds that got there first an unequal opportunity for the rest of the expansion.</li></ol>Pretty sure you'll pick 3...but does SOE agree?

Gaige

06-12-2010, 04:10 AM

<cite>Gaktar@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>You've been excreting your uber-leet opinion all over this thread but you've neglected to address that the AoEs ARE hitting measurably harder now than they were before LU56. </blockquote>No, I said that I'm fine with it due to the removal of the crit mit cap and the increased damage capabilities of players since the update.

Ventisly

06-12-2010, 05:05 AM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, I said that I'm fine with it due to the removal of the crit mit cap and the increased damage capabilities of players since the update.</blockquote>And wouldn't ya know it, the removal of the crit mit cap benefits those that have more T3 armor farmed from the mobs back when they had weaker AoEs. Bully for you, bad news for all those that don't have a lot of crit mit/potency over 100 yet and are just starting to work on the hard mode mobs. Like I said, you chose option 3... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" />Not asking for a nerf, just asking for the same as it was.

EasternKing

06-12-2010, 06:47 AM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pretty sure a guild on my server killed Toxx this week for the first time ever.And i am also pretty sure its their first ever HM mob kill.I agree with Gaige, yes its slightly harder than pre 56, but uncapped potency and Crit mit make up for it.</blockquote>Quoting as all lot of the QQ'ers here seem to have over looked it.The guild in question who killed Tox, is a pretty average run of the mill guild, they had not killed anything remotely difficult until they downed her.So no i don't agree that it is impossible now, i don't agree that she needs to be nerfed, if they can kill it in there easy mode t1-t2 loot, it puts the lie to all the claims here from guilds that have not killed her yet.As the saying goes, time to man up, you want the awesome gear she drops? then start working at it properly instead of crying for nerfs.There are stackable red slot crit mit adorns, people now have uncapped potency, including healers, and uncapped Crit mit.If you are having issues with people getting 1 shot off of tox aoes, i suggest you start asking your healers to actually heal, and to ensure they have reactives and wards stacked before the aoe lands. i also suggest you have your tanks place her better, and i really suggest you pay attention to the huge impossible to miss casting animations she has before each specific aoe lands.

Kahling

06-12-2010, 07:25 AM

Taking really basic numbers this is the situation.Before GU56 my healers could heal the group and ward the group for 70 and tox aoe was hitting for 65, healers not on the ball and not healing/warding over that 65 and it was game over.After GU56 my healers can heal and ward for 80 say but tox aoe's are hitting for 90.What do I mean? Well let me say this, we pulled with 3 healers in group, wards and cures on the ball, wards up for aoe and 1 person in that group was 1 shotted every aoe no matter what you did, and this was people over cap on resists for that aoe, and usually this was a healer that was one shotted. And during this unfun pull we managed to kill Vuulan and get Tox to 80%.Now I ask you, if you get a mob like tox to 80% after maintaining on it for 8 mins that means you know how to kill it yeah? And it means you should be killing it yeah? Thats 8 mins of 1 healer in group dying each time an aoe hits and being ressed for the fight to continue.So where I totally understand where your comming from Guage and I too do not want to see a nerf, I want to win this one fair and square after all, what I am seeing is what was a difficult task with T2 and some T3 before GU56 is now an impossible task.Personally this is broken and the changes need reverting before a proper way forward can be saught.Perversely btw, hard mode maalus which drops the T3 helms and the best necks in game is now easier as its a dps fight, dps has gone up, this is a mob we killed about 10 times before gu56.The problem is that the fights have been one way for 3 months to suddenly change giving an imbalance in progression on a guild by guild basis, and removing what was a pretty good progression, the best any expansion has launched with (tox being easier for first three weeks aside)Kahling

EasternKing

06-12-2010, 07:33 AM

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Taking really basic numbers this is the situation.Before GU56 my healers could heal the group and ward the group for 70 and tox aoe was hitting for 65, healers not on the ball and not healing/warding over that 65 and it was game over.After GU56 my healers can heal and ward for 80 say but tox aoe's are hitting for 90.What do I mean? Well let me say this, we pulled with 3 healers in group, wards and cures on the ball, wards up for aoe and 1 person in that group was 1 shotted every aoe no matter what you did, and this was people over cap on resists for that aoe, and usually this was a healer that was one shotted. And during this unfun pull we managed to kill Vuulan and get Tox to 80%.Now I ask you, if you get a mob like tox to 80% after maintaining on it for 8 mins that means you know how to kill it yeah? And it means you should be killing it yeah? Thats 8 mins of 1 healer in group dying each time an aoe hits and being ressed for the fight to continue.So where I totally understand where your comming from Guage and I too do not want to see a nerf, I want to win this one fair and square after all, what I am seeing is what was a difficult task with T2 and some T3 before GU56 is now an impossible task.Personally this is broken and the changes need reverting before a proper way forward can be saught.Perversely btw, hard mode maalus which drops the T3 helms and the best necks in game is now easier as its a dps fight, dps has gone up, this is a mob we killed about 10 times before gu56.The problem is that the fights have been one way for 3 months to suddenly change giving an imbalance in progression on a guild by guild basis, and removing what was a pretty good progression, the best any expansion has launched with (tox being easier for first three weeks aside)Kahling</blockquote>you are doing it wrong, plain and simple.your healers are either in the wrong place, or they are not ensuring wards and reactives are up in time for the aoes, period.

Kahling

06-12-2010, 08:02 AM

I wish you were 100% right EasternKing I really do and where I think there is definately room for improvment in placment and wards / reactives I don't think that is the whole story.Either way well be pulling it this week again, and we have even more T3 since last attempt so we will see. This thread has made me think about the mob more and given me some idea's, there was one key point where we failed last time and I think if we can tacle that then it might be a different pull. If we were having problems and it was the same as pre gu56 I wouldnt be bothered btw but it has been confirmed that its aoe's are hitting harder and I personally don't think that healers were brought up the same ammount.Kahling.

EasternKing

06-12-2010, 08:48 AM

Toxx was always about placement, if you kill Vulaan first, you have a 6man group solo on Toxx, which is how i do it with my guild.Pick your two points, we use the root near the pool, the root on the edge of the zone in zone out area, when i move Toxx between them 2 points, she is always, and i mean always, flipped around so that her tail is pointing away from me and my healers, so i am always between Toxx and my healers, this allows my healers to max range me and not eat huge amounts of aoe damage.I use a Bruiser to tank with me, he gets eaten, i tank when he is inside, group is Guard/Bruiser/Templar/Defiler/Warden/Dirge.If at any point he is out and has aggro and Winds is inc, i back out of range to my healers, or the Nox that follows it, so only one person is eating max aoe damage, thus freeing up more ward/reactives for the group, if i have aggro, he stays out, its 50secs timer on swallow. so you can easily time it and ensure the right tank is getting eaten.Defiler and Templar should in T1-T2 gear have enough cast speed and resuse speed to single target reactive / ward 3 people, 4 if they are amazing at there job. big aoes are easy timers, never ever random, and really easy to see when she is casting them.Warden should have AOE immune druids can get, and cast it when either the Arcane is inc, or the nox.The issue most of you are experiencing is largely mitigatable by correct placement and healers being on the ball. its no good they stand out in the open and getting punted for miles when that arcane lands, that arcane hits hard and will remove most if not all of any wards and reactives on your MT group, that means they have exactly 10seconds to get them back up again before she drops the big double hit Nox aoe. that means they cant be running back from being punted, they need to be on the back wall behind the tank when the arcance fires off, back on the ground and getting them wards and reactives back up.Also when she is being moved, call out if she stops over the healers to cast an AoE, she has an animation for them all, tell your healers " Toxx is on top of you casting, move", they can run out of range and back in before Toxx gets to the Tank again, while she is sat away from you casting, she isnt hitting you, that means healers do not need to stand under her, eating aoes to blindly spam heals on you.This fight is easy, place it properly, dont have 2 fighters sat under her eating aoes when they dont need to, and above all else COMMUNICATE to your healers what she is doing, you tell them when you move, you tell them when you see her casting her AoE, you tell them where she is.I hope this Info helps you out, once you get your groove on, you will see what me and gaige are talking about.

Kahling

06-12-2010, 08:57 AM

We'll see this week mate, thanks for the tips, one point you made is really going to help us allot tbh.Kah

Gaige

06-12-2010, 12:49 PM

<cite>Gaktar@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>And wouldn't ya know it, the removal of the crit mit cap benefits those that have more T3 armor farmed from the mobs back when they had weaker AoEs.Not asking for a nerf, just asking for the same as it was.</blockquote>I think you need to look at the values on a full set of T2, not to mention a full set of T2 with T3 helm, bracers and boots - all of which you can get w/o killing Toxx.Making her the same as she was before, after all the changes made that benefit the players, nerfs the encounter to an easier state than it was.<div><cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now I ask you, if you get a mob like tox to 80% after maintaining on it for 8 mins that means you know how to kill it yeah? And it means you should be killing it yeah? Thats 8 mins of 1 healer in group dying each time an aoe hits and being ressed for the fight to continue.</blockquote>Um, a 40 min Toxx fight would tell me that your raid does extremely low DPS. Also I have no clue, none at all, how someone is getting one shot every time. That sounds like a healer/positioning issue to me. I really feel like you're blaming SOE for the caliber of players in your raid.</div>

Tehom

06-12-2010, 01:01 PM

I'd encourage anyone who's having trouble to look into the mastercrafted resist jewelry that has crit mit on it. I forget what Toxxulia's crit bonus is, but she and Waansu aren't all that high if I remember right - we usually see most people taking 0 crits in a fight. There's a few priest items from easymodes that have critical aegis procs which are incredibly strong now with crit mit being uncapped, which might affect your group building based on who (if any) have em. Nox or Arcane Resist banners can help too at the stage when you're first killing her.Personally I think killing Tox first is easier due to just keeping her debuffed and having things like a troubador in range, but your mileage may vary if you heal her too much to random deaths and so on.

Rocc

06-12-2010, 01:21 PM

I might add that banners are nice ya but there's also status clickies that prevent AoE except when direct. There's two of them actually. If everyone in the raid has them and their timed out with macro's the fights are substantially easier. They are group AoE prevent not single target and last 16 seconds or so. About the same range as druid turtle shell (ten meters).Crit mit at 40 minimum btw for whoever was asking. If your bards dont have their resist songs mastered maybe you should spend a few bucks and get them mastered for the greater good of the raid force. 75% crit mit is preferred but at 40% you will survive with minimal damage.

Rhita

06-12-2010, 03:03 PM

Just to point out, Tox wasn't broken for that long when SF launched, they broke her on the 25th of Feb, and she was fixed on like the 7th of march, she was already killed by a number of guilds.

Draylore

06-14-2010, 01:31 PM

Lets see.....yes it seems DMG output of mobs went up with GU56........but so did alot of other things from dmg rating on weapons to uncapping player potency and crit mit.My guild/raid alliance took down our first HM mob on Jun 3rd......so after GU56 and after several tries pre-56 where we could not do it.The mob is doable......its doable by guilds/raid forces that are jsut now taking out their frist HM mobs.Dont see anything wrong and surely nothing that needs to be nerfed otherwise these things become trivial.Hell, most of us felt cheated when they made PC and 3-mages easy.......easier.So the OP is correct......Tox AEs are hitting harder than pre-56, Its not however the reason his guild cannot take out the mob.

Travleer33

06-15-2010, 12:00 PM

<cite>NaeenSpeedbringer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Player damage and heal amounts are higher post GU56 too. The base damage, not just because of going past 100% potency. If you bring the mob damage back to what it was pre-GU56 then you have effectively nerfed the mobs unless you also revert the boost to player damage.</blockquote>so GU56 proportionately increased shaman wards to mob aoes to prevent people from getting one-shotted with 20k+ resists and 100%+ crit mit?</blockquote>Mystic wards did not proportionaly increase due to our myth nerf. And on top of that. more powerfull heals will not help when mobs can now one shot a large portion of your raid who have 22k+ health + wards.All the healing power in the world doesnt help when people are geting 1 shoted.Our guild was only killing waansu before this change. of course now we aren't. maybe we need to change our strat, but this fight went from chalening to stupid. I realy think there needs to be an adult in charge of overseeing raids.

Yimway

06-15-2010, 12:00 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>The crit mit cap was removed also, which is something you have to consider when looking at AEs that hit harder.</blockquote>A valid point if players were exceeding 100 crit mit without the gear from these encounters.

Gaige

06-15-2010, 12:03 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>A valid point if players were exceeding 100 crit mit without the gear from these encounters.</blockquote>These? I thought we were talking about Toxx. You can exceed 100 killing HM Twins, Maalus and Sages.

Yimway

06-15-2010, 12:15 PM

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you are having issues with people getting 1 shot off of tox aoes, i suggest you start asking your healers to actually heal, and to ensure they have reactives and wards stacked before the aoe lands.</blockquote>Actually, thats exactly the issue I have with the changes.The damage amounts pre 56, for us represent numbers that don't require a warder in every group, the new changes are pretty much pointing in that direction. So for me, it became more of a roster check than a gear check. My folks have all the gear prior to HM encounters for this xpac, so we're pretty much left with just HM content to work on, Toxx being the agreed easiest.It's honestly more of an annoyance than anything as we built up druids in dps groups with this expansion's changes. If the answer is recruit moar chain/plate healers, again I'm not thrilled.

Jesdyr

06-15-2010, 12:27 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaktar@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>You've been excreting your uber-leet opinion all over this thread but you've neglected to address that the AoEs ARE hitting measurably harder now than they were before LU56. </blockquote>No, I said that I'm fine with it due to the removal of the crit mit cap and the increased damage capabilities of players since the update.</blockquote>What Gaige is saying is that now that the top guilds are geared out in SF T3 there is no reason for these encounters to be as "easy" as they were Pre gu56.

Gaige

06-15-2010, 03:27 PM

<cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>What Gaige is saying is that now that the top guilds are geared out in SF T3 there is no reason for these encounters to be as "easy" as they were Pre gu56.</blockquote>The top guilds cleared these encounters in mostly TSO gear way before GU56.

Yimway

06-15-2010, 03:36 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>The top guilds cleared these encounters in mostly TSO gear way before GU56.</blockquote>Just curious, think they can do it in just that gear again?Then how about nothing but non-contested gear?Just curious your opinion in all seriousness.I was fine with the survivability check on this encounter being 90-100 crit mit and significant mit/hp. When the natural check (unwarded) increased over 100 crit mit, looking at the gearing opportunities available today for mobs before this in progression, I have concerns.I'm not going to say it isn't possible, I'm just saying its much less likely to kill this mob today in TSO gear, so the statement isn't too relevant anymore.

Gaige

06-15-2010, 03:43 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just curious, think they can do it in just that gear again?Then how about nothing but non-contested gear?Just curious your opinion in all seriousness.I was fine with the survivability check on this encounter being 90-100 crit mit and significant mit/hp. When the natural check (unwarded) increased over 100 crit mit, looking at the gearing opportunities available today for mobs before this in progression, I have concerns.I'm not going to say it isn't possible, I'm just saying its much less likely to kill this mob today in TSO gear, so the statement isn't too relevant anymore.</blockquote>I'm sure we could.Contested gear, in case you're unaware Atan, is the same gear that drops from HM mobs and some cloaks, belts and a few other things. The best gear in SF is from HM instanced mobs. Klaak hardly drops upgrades and the cloaks from Ox are only upgrades for a few classes. So contested gear isn't even relevant.My opinion, in all seriousness, is that Toxx is fine. Especially since a casual raiding guild on Mistmoore, who hadn't killed her prior to GU56 killed her post GU56.Your assumptions of the survivability check mean nothing to me because you don't have experience killing hard mobs. Everytime a guild like yours or Kahlings fails they automatically assume its because the mob isn't doable in their gear. Its never the setup, its never the players, its never the strat, its always gear gear gear.The statement is relevant because Toxx's AEs don't hit omg harder than they hit at launch, when people killed her in far worse gear.I'd almost go so far as to say that if your guild had the right class makeup, that my guild could probably kill Toxx with your characters.It isn't the mob, casual guilds who had never killed her before killing her after the update prove that. Its killable in non-hardmode gear. There are issues with your raid setup.

Yimway

06-15-2010, 03:49 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>It isn't the mob, casual guilds who had never killed her before killing her after the update prove that. Its killable in non-hardmode gear. There are issues with your raid setup.</blockquote>Yes, I already stated that, the setup that would have worked pre56 will not work now, specificaly due to the changes in potency, which incase you didn't read, is exactly what every complaint in this thread is about.

Gaige

06-15-2010, 03:53 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, I already stated that, the setup that would have worked pre56 will not work now, specificaly due to the changes in potency, which incase you didn't read, is exactly what every complaint in this thread is about.</blockquote>So because you use druids in your OT groups you want SOE to change the encounter to fit your lack of shaman? Toxx is a hardmode mob. She drops the best pants in the game. Any thrown together raid setup shouldn't be guaranteed to work. You need to be flexible and you need to put a raid together with the encounter in mind, if you're interested in killing hard mode encounters.Remember, hard mode encounters like Toxx aren't aligned to your playstyle, you guys get 80% of the raid content already.That is what bothers me about players like Atan and Kahling and their "raid" guilds. They have this huge unwarranted sense of entitlement just because they put 24 players together.It used to be contested. SOE changed that to where now its almost impossible to ever kill the HM contested. You won.It used to be instances. Now instances are persistant, now they go from zone to zone, and now they have easymode/hardmode all over the place so scrub guilds can see and kill everything no matter how good they are. They can finish all the quests, read all the lore, etc.Atan's guild has two armor sets aligned towards him, versus my guild's one. Is that good enough? No. Now he wants my one.There are 7 HM encounters throughout the first 3 zones, and I believe 9 total in Underfoot (only 2 are available).What are Atan and Kahling worried about? Are they worried about the other multiple encounters they can kill, or the entire zone they implemented for non-hardcore raiders? Of course not!The only stuff not handed to them by SOE. Hardmodes.Go figure. That is why the playerbase of this game makes me sick.You are never satisfied. No matter what SOE gives you, you want more. If you can't kill Toxx with your raid setup, CHANGE YOUR SETUP. You don't deserve the best pants in the game and some of the best items in the game just because you put together 24 people and zoned into Lair, SOE already rewarded you with 3 other mobs for having the ability to click the door.

Yimway

06-15-2010, 04:04 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>Remember, hard mode encounters like Toxx aren't aligned to your playstyle, you guys get 80% of the raid content, remember?</blockquote>Unfortunately they didn't put any challenge on that 80% really. So we're left with doing nothing or raiding HM encounters.

Gaige

06-15-2010, 04:09 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortunately they didn't put any challenge on that 80% really. So we're left with doing nothing or raiding HM encounters.</blockquote>So if you can kill it, its too easy and unrewarding, and if you can't its too hard and overrewarding.Got it.I just don't get it, there is other stuff you have yet to kill. Two easy mobs in Icy and Vrewwx. Easy Roehn Theer and easy Sages in Palace, Perah Celsis in Labs and all the mobs in Underfoot.Why would you come here saying if you can't kill HM "encounters" you have nothing to raid and nothing is challenging when you have yet to kill all the easymode mobs?

Yimway

06-15-2010, 04:29 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just don't get it, there is other stuff you have yet to kill. Two easy mobs in Icy and Vrewwx. Easy Roehn Theer and easy Sages in Palace, Perah Celsis in Labs and all the mobs in Underfoot.Why would you come here saying if you can't kill HM "encounters" you have nothing to raid and nothing is challenging when you have yet to kill all the easymode mobs?</blockquote>Our progression list is apparently not up to date.But to the point, there isn't much progression in difficulty outside of the HM encounters this expansion. You seem to indicate that HM == Avatar difficulty, and only certain guilds should be playing that content. However, I believe that wasn't the intention. Things as easy as Gynok / Tyrranus / Mynzak and that progressoin level has moved to HM encounters with SF. My expectation is there is a progression of that content, and some of it should be obtainable without resulting to specific class makeups. I'm not saying you should be able to zone any hap-hazard raid into them, but well geared / well played classes in reasonable raid makeups should be able to eat into atleast the first tier of HM encounters. I fully expect the top HM encounters and HM contesteds to be class restricted, hyper difficult to kill encounters. But I do not expect them all to be governed by those requirements. I feel with the design of SF, Hard Tox is roughly Mynzak in relative progression. Perhaps I'm wrong in that perception, but I see all the easy content for those guilds that couldn't get past Thet / Switchmaster / Tyrranus in last expansion. Cause honestly, none of the easy content beyond the luck factor on PC feels that it lines up with even mid-tier progression mobs in last expansion.I personally though have not entered underfoot to gauge it, as its been down more than its been up (durring our schedule). And the initial reports of it were quite bleak. Perhaps we'll find our more casual build survivable past more than a couple names in underfoot, I wont comment until I've had a chance to test it. I know my expectation is set rather low based upon other players feedback.So, yes, clearly we have different perceptions on these encounters, and only someone from SoE can say what their intentions were in relative difficulty/progression.

Gaige

06-15-2010, 04:37 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>But to the point, there isn't much progression in difficulty outside of the HM encounters this expansion. You seem to indicate that HM == Avatar difficulty, and only certain guilds should be playing that content. However, I believe that wasn't the intention. Things as easy as Gynok / Tyrranus / Mynzak and that progressoin level has moved to HM encounters with SF. I'm not saying you should be able to zone any hap-hazard raid into them, but well geared / well played classes in reasonable raid makeups should be able to eat into atleast the first tier of HM encounters. I fully expect the top HM encounters and HM contesteds to be class restricted, hyper difficult to kill encounters. But I do not expect them all to be governed by those requirements. I feel with the design of SF, Hard Tox is roughly Mynzak in relative progression. Perhaps I'm wrong in that perception, but I see all the easy content for those guilds that couldn't get past Thet / Switchmaster / Tyrranus in last expansion. Cause honestly, none of the easy content beyond the luck factor on PC feels that it lines up with even mid-tier progression mobs in last expansion.</blockquote>See this I don't understand. You think HM's are tiered? You don't believe the easymode/hardmode difference is enough, now you want to believe that there are certain HMs that are easier than some easymodes?Get over it.There difference is already there, the tiers are clear cut. The itemization shows that. Your belief is flawed.

Jesdyr

06-15-2010, 04:43 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>That is what bothers me about players like Atan and Kahling and their "raid" guilds. </blockquote>Happy you didn't choose to include me in that. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I am all for hard mobs .. If I or my guild isn't killing something that just means we need to work at it. My problem is that the mob was given a large boost in damage accidentally. This was not an intentional change on SoE's end. The mob Pre-gu56 was turned to be as hard as it was and now it is boosted. Asking for it to be FIXED is not the same as asking for it to be nerfed.

EQPrime

06-15-2010, 04:53 PM

Is it killable by non-hardcore raiding guilds? YesIs the damage higher since the last GU? Yes, based on evidence provided by the OP.I think what people want to see is a dev to say either "oops this was unintended", or "we beefed these up on purpose because of the boosts players received in this update." The fact that there has been no response to these 2 threads is pretty troubling.

Jesdyr

06-15-2010, 05:13 PM

<cite>Uguv@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>a dev to say either "oops this was unintended"</blockquote>They did say it was an unintentional effect from removing the potency cap.

I_am_Me

06-15-2010, 05:25 PM

<cite>Uguv@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think what people want to see is a dev to say either "oops this was unintended", or "we beefed these up on purpose because of the boosts players received in this update." The fact that there has been no response to these 2 threads is pretty troubling.</blockquote><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/user/profile.m?user_id=222217">timetravelling</a> said,Checking on this issue internally. What we've found:<ul><li>crit mit is working fine, don't worry about trying to mess with how much you do/don't have equipped </li><li>certain bosses such as Waansu (thank you for the specific boss-and-spells to help us track this down!) previously had very high amounts of potency (nearly 240% in his case). When the cap was removed for GU56, this caused his damage to jump quite a bit.</li></ul><div>We will go through the raid bosses and hotfix their damage back down to expected values, my apologies for any frustrations!<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=479496#top">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...c_id=479496#top</a></div>

Gaige

06-15-2010, 05:51 PM

Toxx is killable by casual guilds now, so why change it.

Rageincarnate

06-15-2010, 06:25 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>Toxx is killable by casual guilds now, so why change it.</blockquote>because it's an unintended bug? that wasn't fixed yet? per the dev? This would thread would stop if a dev would just say .. its getting fixed or not getting fixed.. /sigh

Sydares

06-15-2010, 06:38 PM

<cite>Purities@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/user/profile.m?user_id=222217">timetravelling</a> said,</blockquote>Yeah, and then they did a hotfix that mitigated it (some) but didn't restore it to previous values, which is I believe the reason for the thread.

Gaige

06-15-2010, 06:49 PM

<cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>because it's an unintended bug? that wasn't fixed yet? per the dev? This would thread would stop if a dev would just say .. its getting fixed or not getting fixed.. /sigh</blockquote>I didn't see him say anything about Toxx. In fact he only said anything about Waansu and Ark, and even after their fixes they hit harder than they used to.

Yimway

06-15-2010, 06:53 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>See this I don't understand. You think HM's are tiered? You don't believe the easymode/hardmode difference is enough, now you want to believe that there are certain HMs that are easier than some easymodes?</blockquote>Yes, as an MMO, I expect there to many progression tiers, with only the very top tier to be class specific. Each tier is progressed by successful farming / clearing / gearing from the prior. I expect X to be difficult to clear without completing Y. I expect the very hardest current tier stuff to only be killable by the perfect 24 in the perfect build with no mistakes and a little luck.With the amount of HM content being developed, I expect some cross section of that to be passable by people geared in available content and reasonable makeups, but as I said, not the hardest.Player skill will of course impact how quickly and how far people can get, but yes, I believe everything is to be based on progression tiers, or it just doesn't add entertainment value for a large enough cross-section of players.I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure SoE designers mostly agree with that premise.I fully believe toxx's worst hit shouldn't one shot an unwarded mage standing in the right spot, doing the right thing, wearing all the gear available to them from non-HM encounters in the current expansion. If that is the case, then Toxx is just fine. If its not, I think that some percentage of the HM encounters should present a gear check that passes that condition. The hardest stuff should require that mage double buffed and warded.The potency changes appear to place toxx at a level that that condition is not true, where pre gu56 toxx that conditoin was true. I believe it was tested and designed to be there and is slightly off today.I recognize with the caps removed the fight is actually even easier for you today that it was prior to the removal.Again, thats my perspective on where eq2 raiding should be. I recognize you don't agree, but all that really matters is what SoE believes.

Draylore

06-15-2010, 07:39 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>See this I don't understand. You think HM's are tiered? You don't believe the easymode/hardmode difference is enough, now you want to believe that there are certain HMs that are easier than some easymodes?</blockquote>Yes, as an MMO, I expect there to many progression tiers, with only the very top tier to be class specific. Each tier is progressed by successful farming / clearing / gearing from the prior. I expect X to be difficult to clear without completing Y. I expect the very hardest current tier stuff to only be killable by the perfect 24 in the perfect build with no mistakes and a little luck.With the amount of HM content being developed, I expect some cross section of that to be passable by people geared in available content and reasonable makeups, but as I said, not the hardest.Player skill will of course impact how quickly and how far people can get, but yes, I believe everything is to be based on progression tiers, or it just doesn't add entertainment value for a large enough cross-section of players.I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure SoE designers mostly agree with that premise.I fully believe toxx's worst hit shouldn't one shot an unwarded mage standing in the right spot, doing the right thing, wearing all the gear available to them from non-HM encounters in the current expansion. If that is the case, then Toxx is just fine. If its not, I think that some percentage of the HM encounters should present a gear check that passes that condition. The hardest stuff should require that mage double buffed and warded.The potency changes appear to place toxx at a level that that condition is not true, where pre gu56 toxx that conditoin was true. I believe it was tested and designed to be there and is slightly off today.I recognize with the caps removed the fight is actually even easier for you today that it was prior to the removal.Again, thats my perspective on where eq2 raiding should be. I recognize you don't agree, but all that really matters is what SoE believes.</blockquote>As I stated before....there are at least 2 raid forces on my server (mine being one, Imperium being the other, might be others but im not sure) that took down Tox for the very first time post GU56. For us it was our first HM mob so we didnt have anything but gear we have gotten via "easy" mode mobs. I believe Imperium is at a similar level of gear. Most of our raid doesnt have everything yet from the easy mobs so..... Tox today does in fact meet your definition of progression. i.e it can be killed by raid forces that have farmed the easier non-HM gear.Yes Tox is hitting harder than before......big deal its still well within the reach of raid forces just now hitting the HM mobs.

Travleer33

06-15-2010, 08:25 PM

<cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaktar@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>You've been excreting your uber-leet opinion all over this thread but you've neglected to address that the AoEs ARE hitting measurably harder now than they were before LU56. </blockquote>No, I said that I'm fine with it due to the removal of the crit mit cap and the increased damage capabilities of players since the update.</blockquote>What Gaige is saying is that now that the top guilds are geared out in SF T3 there is no reason for these encounters to be as "easy" as they were Pre gu56.</blockquote>Thats how im interpreting some of these posts dismissing everyone else' skill and coordination as raiders.

Crismorn

06-15-2010, 08:41 PM

Maybe you guys should hit up Ykesha/MPS/MMB to farm the gear that all these "hardcore" guilds did in order to break HM content.There are some good pieces from those zones still

Gungo

06-15-2010, 09:23 PM

Tox is still the easiest hard mode NPC and killable in its intended progression and by its intended audience. I fail to see any relevance about how Tox is hitting to hard for its position in this expansion.

Gaige

06-15-2010, 09:44 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>With the amount of HM content being developed, I expect some cross section of that to be passable by people geared in available content and reasonable makeups, but as I said, not the hardest.I fully believe toxx's worst hit shouldn't one shot an unwarded mage standing in the right spot, doing the right thing, wearing all the gear available to them from non-HM encounters in the current expansion. If that is the case, then Toxx is just fine. If its not, I think that some percentage of the HM encounters should present a gear check that passes that condition. The hardest stuff should require that mage double buffed and warded.</blockquote>Um, amount of HM content developed? 10 vs the 41 easymodes? Hello, easymode content FAR outweighs hardmode content.I fully believe that the class with the least survivability should be dying to AEs against a HM boss if you aren't using shaman to ward them.Again, the tiers are already there presented by SOE - hardmode and easymode. Amount of HM content is just lol worthy, there is over 4x as much easymode content.Either restructure your raid or quit complaining imo. Toxx drops some of the best loot in SF and she is a HM zone boss and as such she shouldn't be a pushover like what you're asking for.<div><cite>Travleer33 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats how im interpreting some of these posts dismissing everyone else' skill and coordination as raiders.</blockquote>I'm sorry that people are offended that they can't kill stuff, however looking at progression threads its plainly obvious what raiders are skilled and coordinated and which ones aren't.</div>

Hecula

06-15-2010, 10:02 PM

I would rank the easy mode hole encounters on par or harder than the hardmode stuff outside the hole. HM hole stuff is something else (what we've seen of it anyways).

Tehom

06-16-2010, 12:18 AM

<cite>Hecula wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would rank the easy mode hole encounters on par or harder than the hardmode stuff outside the hole. HM hole stuff is something else (what we've seen of it anyways).</blockquote>I'm not sure if that was their intent. If you look at ACT, you'll notice that any easymode in the Hole up to Regulus/Regulas (I haven't done 2nd wing, so can't speak on that) cannot crit on players in the amount of crit mit you'll have on hardmodes. I'm not sure what their crit bonus is since I'm yet to see a crit on any player, but it's a lot lower than any existing hardmode. So ones that are trickier than various hardmodes in either the damage they do, dps checks, or scripting might not be intentional and just a matter of tuning.Considering the razor-thin margins they have in gear right now between easymode and hardmode stuff, I think usually the only practical difference when designing challenging encounters is the amount of crit mit players are likely to have.

Rageincarnate

06-16-2010, 01:52 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><div>I'm sorry that people are offended that they can't kill stuff, however looking at progression threads its plainly obvious what raiders are skilled and coordinated and which ones aren't.</div></blockquote>So the new raid strat is bring class x to the raid instead of class y? Sounds tough. have fun patting yourself on the back.I just want to be clear , you are all for designing encounters that certain classes can not do? If i'm wrong and there are solo druids healing hard mode dps groups i wont say another word... but it does not appear possible regardless of the number of ward procs/gear./signed more then peeved off warden

EQPrime

06-16-2010, 02:15 PM

<cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><div>I'm sorry that people are offended that they can't kill stuff, however looking at progression threads its plainly obvious what raiders are skilled and coordinated and which ones aren't.</div></blockquote>So the new raid strat is bring class x to the raid instead of class y? Sounds tough. have fun patting yourself on the back.I just want to be clear , you are all for designing encounters that certain classes can not do? If i'm wrong and there are solo druids healing hard mode dps groups i wont say another word... but it does not appear possible regardless of the number of ward procs/gear./signed more then peeved off warden</blockquote>Druids can solo heal dps groups on Tox fine. I'm sure they could on twins and some others as well.Fights with the hardest hitting aoes are always going to favor shamen. Heck, early on during TSO many guilds rolled with a shaman in each group just to get past Kultak.

Draylore

06-16-2010, 02:28 PM

<cite>Uguv@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><div>I'm sorry that people are offended that they can't kill stuff, however looking at progression threads its plainly obvious what raiders are skilled and coordinated and which ones aren't.</div></blockquote>So the new raid strat is bring class x to the raid instead of class y? Sounds tough.have fun patting yourself on the back.I just want to be clear , you are all for designing encounters that certain classes can not do? If i'm wrong and there are solo druids healing hard mode dps groups i wont say another word... but it does not appear possible regardless of the number of ward procs/gear./signed more then peeved off warden</blockquote>Druids can solo heal dps groups on Tox fine. I'm sure they could on twins and some others as well.Fights with the hardest hitting aoes are always going to favor shamen. Heck, early on during TSO many guilds rolled with a shaman in each group just to get past Kultak.</blockquote>"boxed" Druids even <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kringus

06-16-2010, 02:39 PM

<cite>Draylore wrote:</cite><blockquote>"boxed" Druids even <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>The lucky group got the boxed druid. Once our healer went ld we had a caster group being healed strictly from out of group plus potting some dots.Seriously, we had 4 boxed toons, stuff going wrong, and some people not behaving, and still took down Tox. This fight is not too hard- you need a solid MT group, another decent tank group, and DPS who can do more damage than they heal when they forget to joust. Uber power regen doesn't hurt. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Rageincarnate

06-16-2010, 02:55 PM

awesome, i'm looking forward to this then. care to post a heal parse? it would seriously shed some much needed data on this.

Kahling

06-16-2010, 03:07 PM

Guage,If you check out progression on Kith, Legion of Steel is killing HM mobs before and after GU56.Let me make this clear, I do not want an easy ride, I do not want HM mobs like Tox to be easier than they were pre gu56, all I am saying really is they need to hit exactly the same as they did pre gu56 taking in to account and more potency etc healers are likely to have after gu56.Therefore Tox will be hitting harder post gu56 by design, BUT is it the same, is there balance?What needs to happen is a dev come in, say either yes in relation to other changes tox is hitting exactly the same as pre gu56 in relation to other changes, or its hitting harder in relation to the other changes so were looking in to it.IF Toxx is hitting exactly the same after gu56 in relation to other changes then fair enough my guild just has to man up to it and learn how to do the encounter properly. IF toxx is hitting harder in relation to other changes in GU56 then it needs re balancing as it's then not fair.SO please mr dev do not make this mob any easier than it was pre gu56, but make [Removed for Content] sure its the same as it was and tell us either way.ThanksKahlingPS Guage, you have nothing to worry about "Kahlings Guild" I do not want it on a plate, I want HM encounters to work towards and feel good about killing, yes we have gone back to some TSO for some TSO items that are good (healer hat from Gozak for example), we are working hard to get the kills we have, and yes we have the correct raid setup 80% of the time.

Draylore

06-16-2010, 03:32 PM

<cite>Kringus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Draylore wrote:</cite><blockquote>"boxed" Druids even <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>The lucky group got the boxed druid. Once our healer went ld we had a caster group being healed strictly from out of group plus potting some dots.Seriously, we had 4 boxed toons, stuff going wrong, and some people not behaving, and still took down Tox. This fight is not too hard- you need a solid MT group, another decent tank group, and DPS who can do more damage than they heal when they forget to joust. Uber power regen doesn't hurt. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>I was actually first amazed then proud that we were able to kill Tox with that crazy raid setup. Especially after taking part in this thread because it proved to me that Tox hard is just fine as it is in terms of progression and what is required to kill it. The amount of AE dmg pre-56 -vs- post-56 is irrelevant imo.

Gaige

06-16-2010, 04:16 PM

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you check out progression on Kith, Legion of Steel is killing HM mobs before and after GU56.Let me make this clear, I do not want an easy ride</blockquote>Gratz on Twins and Maalus HM, both mobs I think should be killed before Toxx.That said you do want an easier ride, you're here asking for Toxx to be changed despite casual guilds who hadn't killed her pre GU56 saying that they have killed her post GU and she is fine, the AEs are irrelevant.<div><cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just want to be clear , you are all for designing encounters that certain classes can not do? </blockquote>Sure, I think HM encounters should require strict raid setups, just part of being HM.If you have players getting one shot to AEs, put a shaman in their group. While we're breaking in the HMs in Underfoot we've been using four shaman. Is that our normal raid setup for Labs or Palace? No. Is it what seems like we need to have to survive the new HM AEs and stuff? Sure.Again, HARDMODE mobs are not required for progression, they are optional content aimed at optimal raid forces. That is why easymode content outnumbers them 4 to 1.</div>

Kahling

06-16-2010, 04:35 PM

Guage,TBH Mate I think we got off on the wrong foot from the get go, and I must admit I came in to this thread with the mindset that we were being ripped off by it being harder now basing it on the fact that Waansu really was and still is harder than pre gu56 and hard core raiders have said to me, aye waansu is hitting harder and "so is Toxx."I know that Waansu is hitting harder because we killed it 5 times pre gu56, and have killed it when its up since, but we have had to take extra healers to do it. So I was figuring Tox must be too tbh.I also took the view that anyone that had killed it obviously would not want it changing as other guilds would have a chance to catch them up as it were, and I think there is a little of that in any thread like this tbh.Anyhows were just going to get on with the job at hand but in the back of my mind will be the "is it harder relative to pre gu56 now"? If it is then it really is BS. If its not then I need to stop whineing. Either way a dev really should analyse this fight and tell us the score cos this could go back and forth till were blue in the face and to be honest the only evidence I have is heresay (nb taking the very first post of this thread you can see Toxx is hitting harder with its aoe's but the question is, is it hitting harder relative to the dps and heal increases given with gu56)RegardsKahling

Gaige

06-16-2010, 04:37 PM

Cool, and gl dude I'm sure you guys can get it.

Yimway

06-16-2010, 04:55 PM

<cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>awesome, i'm looking forward to this then. care to post a heal parse? it would seriously shed some much needed data on this.</blockquote>It is clear that a druid can do this for a group that generally already has the gear (your druid solo heal dps group example). It is clear it was possible to happen prior to gu56 for people that didn't already have the gear. It is not clear that it can still be done with a raid in just easymode gear post gu56. Potentially with enough ward / defensive proc gear it is still attainable, but when you factor procs you have to just plan on luck percentages.I don't think anyone doubts the ability of the class to generate the hps needed to counter the encounter, the only question is the group's maximum hit survivability without wards (wearing only easymode gear) after the potency increase on the mob.

Draylore

06-16-2010, 04:59 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote> It is not clear that it can still be done with a raid in just easymode gear post gu56.</blockquote>Umm yes it is. To repeat myself yet again.......2 raid forces that I know of on my server took down Tox HM as their very first HM mob post GU56. The only non-easymode gear we have is exactly what we have gotten from the Tox HM kills we've done since.

EQPrime

06-16-2010, 05:13 PM

<cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>awesome, i'm looking forward to this then. care to post a heal parse? it would seriously shed some much needed data on this.</blockquote>Oops, clicked too quickly...It's hard to post a heal parse on that fight because the raid is so spread out. My parse would only really be accurate for the MT group. Shaman did about 5100hps, cleric did about 2500, druid did about 1800. These numbers don't really reflect a ton of incoming damage...

Gaige

06-16-2010, 05:13 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think anyone doubts the ability of the class to generate the hps needed to counter the encounter, the only question is the group's maximum hit survivability without wards (wearing only easymode gear) after the potency increase on the mob.</blockquote>I still can't understand why you feel a druid should be able to solo heal the mage group on Toxx.If SOE caters to your whining and changes a HARDMODE BOSS MOB to be killable with your raid setup because you refuse to utilize some shaman, that will be pretty hilariously sad.

EasternKing

06-16-2010, 05:29 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think anyone doubts the ability of the class to generate the hps needed to counter the encounter, the only question is the group's maximum hit survivability without wards (wearing only easymode gear) after the potency increase on the mob.</blockquote>I still can't understand why you feel a druid should be able to solo heal the mage group on Toxx.If SOE caters to your whining and changes a HARDMODE BOSS MOB to be killable with your raid setup because you refuse to utilize some shaman, that will be pretty hilariously sad.</blockquote>My guild has a Fury Solo heal the mage group on Toxx.So i dont know what Atan is complaining about really.

Yimway

06-16-2010, 05:33 PM

<cite>Draylore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote> It is not clear that it can still be done with a raid in just easymode gear post gu56.</blockquote>Umm yes it is. To repeat myself yet again.......2 raid forces that I know of on my server took down Tox HM as their very first HM mob post GU56. The only non-easymode gear we have is exactly what we have gotten from the Tox HM kills we've done since.</blockquote>You had a druid solo healing? Cause that was his question.

Yimway

06-16-2010, 05:35 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>If SOE caters to your whining and changes a HARDMODE BOSS MOB to be killable with your raid setup because you refuse to utilize some shaman, that will be pretty hilariously sad.</blockquote>It woiuld only be a change to the way it was when you first killed the mob Gaige.

Gaige

06-16-2010, 05:38 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>It woiuld only be a change to the way it was when you first killed the mob Gaige.</blockquote>No, it wouldn't. They can't change it back to how it was at launch without changing everything else, and as I said numerous times tons of guilds killed Toxx in mostly TSO gear, so your raid is already better geared than they were.So now we have a causal guild saying they do it with druids solo healing.I'm not sure what else you can say.

Crismorn

06-16-2010, 05:47 PM

If I was in a casual guild looking to break HM content I'd hit up Gozak, Ykesha, Miragul and Zarrakon to load up on ward proc gear for all my healers.Those pieces will make a massive difference, when I started raiding a month with my current guild and had no idea where the raid zones were let alone the scripts those items were what made solo healing all the HM encounters possible for me "Inq"

EasternKing

06-16-2010, 06:01 PM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I was in a casual guild looking to break HM content I'd hit up Gozak, Ykesha, Miragul and Zarrakon to load up on ward proc gear for all my healers.Those pieces will make a massive difference, when I started raiding a month with my current guild and had no idea where the raid zones were let alone the scripts those items were what made solo healing all the HM encounters possible for me "Inq"</blockquote>Bingo!You cannot ignore the old mobs, most of them still have loot that is head and shoulders above anything you will find for a long time in SF.

Rageincarnate

06-16-2010, 06:30 PM

ty for the heal parse.. i was honestly asking about solo healing a dps group. u gave me a parse of a group with 3 healers in it but thats kool. no sarcasm. if it can be done i will do it. thanks. I'm not afraid to work hard. Honestly its just irratating you guys wanting mobs designed this way .. It would be like making mobs resistant to arrows. So you can't bring a ranger. For no real point.. just make the ranger play a different class right.?? I understand that it is doable to solo heal as a druid(per input in this thread, but with no heal parses <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ... i could say i solo theer tbh .. ), but i hate fail for any reason. I have the gozak hat and quite a bit of nice stuff. <a href="http://everquest2.com/Unrest/Warben/">http://everquest2.com/Unrest/Warben/</a> feel free to rip on me/offer advice i'm not scurred. would heart the munzok shield though.So who all is rocking 2 raid mains? any other classes doing that? i admit i'm curious.

Crismorn

06-16-2010, 06:37 PM

Get the main 3 ward proc items from TSO - Ykesha ring, Zarrakon Hoop and FBH "Faded Black Hood"With those 3 items you can solo heal pretty much any raidmob in eq2 just by spamming heals/cures, you dont even need to know the encounters.Heal parses wont tell you anything helpful.

Yimway

06-16-2010, 06:47 PM

<cite>Purities@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now to the point of the thread. How is setting Tox back to what he was at before making it easy? How many members of casual guilds will be at the point where they're easily breaking the potency / crit bonus caps? 1 or 2?</blockquote>You'll find htem breaking the caps on specific abilities. Like they may have picked up 30% bonus to a specific spell via adornment or aa selection, then have sufficient raw CB/Potency to then exceed the cap on specific abilities.But you are right, finding casuals with over 100 natural CB/Pot while still wearing max crit mit gear is going to be difficult to find. Its the focus items / effects / aa that their going to be breaking the caps on.

Gaige

06-16-2010, 07:02 PM

<cite>Purities@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>How many members of casual guilds will be at the point where they're easily breaking the potency / crit bonus caps? 1 or 2?So how's putting Tox and all the other HM mobs back to what they were making it easy mode? Why should it be more difficult to kill HM mobs for more-casual guilds when it was easier for the guilds that killed them before?Must be you liked easy mode, Gaige, and now that you're geared you still enjoy easy mode!</blockquote>They also increased weapon spreads, weapon high ends, so all melee damage is higher. Uncapping potency will have an affect on most DPS classes because of AA. Where assassins could cap their biggest CAs with 60% potency before, now those will see an increase from every % over 60% since they're no longer capped at 100%. The same goes for heals I presume.So Vuulan will die faster, which makes Toxx an easier fight. I imagine problems with this fight stem from positioning, fail curing and Vuulan living too long. All things which won't be fixed by lowering her AE damage, AE damage which guilds have said are irrelevant to killing the encounter in easymode gear post GU56.I *NEVER* believe a fight should be nerfed due to a particular raid setup being unable to kill it, unless we're talking about requiring 4 tanks and 10 healers. If we're talking about shaman instead of druids, or mage dps instead of scout dps, I don't have a problem with that, especially on HARDMODE BOSS MOBS that aren't needed for progression.

Shareana

06-16-2010, 07:09 PM

There is NO need to be insulting to someone during a discussion...

EQPrime

06-16-2010, 07:10 PM

<cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>ty for the heal parse.. i was honestly asking about solo healing a dps group. u gave me a parse of a group with 3 healers in it but thats kool. no sarcasm. if it can be done i will do it. thanks. I'm not afraid to work hard. Honestly its just irratating you guys wanting mobs designed this way .. It would be like making mobs resistant to arrows. So you can't bring a ranger. For no real point.. just make the ranger play a different class right.?? I understand that it is doable to solo heal as a druid(per input in this thread, but with no heal parses <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> ... i could say i solo theer tbh .. ), but i hate fail for any reason. I have the gozak hat and quite a bit of nice stuff. <a href="http://everquest2.com/Unrest/Warben/">http://everquest2.com/Unrest/Warben/</a> feel free to rip on me/offer advice i'm not scurred. would heart the munzok shield though.So who all is rocking 2 raid mains? any other classes doing that? i admit i'm curious. </blockquote>I don't have heal parses but for the last 5 mins or so of the fight we had a defiler go LD so we had a group made up of: Dirge, Swash, Wizard, SK, and Illy. The SK was 2-boxing the illy. They had no healer. We had maybe 2 or 3 total deaths in that group during that last 5 minutes during the time they had no healer. The healers in other groups were able to spot heal them. Obviously a druid could solo heal a group on Tox.

I_am_Me

06-16-2010, 07:11 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>...So Vuulan will die faster, which makes Toxx an easier fight...</blockquote>Vullan dies faster.Toxx hits harderTherefore Tox is as difficult as it was before.... Your logic needs workSolution to your statement: Increase both Vullan and Tox's health and have their dps what it was pre-update

Gaige

06-16-2010, 07:18 PM

<cite>Purities@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Vullan dies faster.Toxx hits harderTherefore Tox is as difficult as it was before!.... your logic hurts my head!Instead why not increase both Vullan and Tox's health and have them hit what they did pre update?</blockquote>MT group on Toxx with only two healers because of the two tanks in the group so you can deal with the eating.Three groups on Vuulan burning that and the adds down asap with the other 6 or 7 healers with them.The sooner Vuulan dies, the easier Toxx will be because all of the healers will be focused on that encounter with the cures/spot heals. Not to mention the survivability gained from the 3rd tank being there in case something silly happens with the eating.In general the longer an encounter goes on, the harder it gets.Its funny how other guilds who didn't kill her pre GU and have killed her post GU with no hardmode gear while saying the AE's don't matter; if I had to guess your raid's problem is refusal to alter the setup to give the weakest groups more survivability and probably curing since a lot of the big damage comes when things are cured fast enough.

I_am_Me

06-16-2010, 07:20 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>...</blockquote>Try answering my post. Thx.

EQPrime

06-16-2010, 07:25 PM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Get the main 3 ward proc items from TSO - Ykesha ring, Zarrakon Hoop and FBH "Faded Black Hood"With those 3 items you can solo heal pretty much any raidmob in eq2 just by spamming heals/cures, you dont even need to know the encounters.Heal parses wont tell you anything helpful.</blockquote>Hate to see myself agreeing with Davion but he's got a good point. You should also have your T2 shoulders from the quest line before you're pulling hard modes. You can even buy sublime healer weapons if you want the ward proc.Before we were able to kill Tox we ended up doing several trips for Miragul charms (very nice for tox) as well as flawless charms.

Rhita

06-16-2010, 08:22 PM

I usually try to avoid things like this. But these are Hard Mode encounters, not everyone is gonna clear them. If your getting your butt kicked, get some more new gear. Guilds are still killing these, even newer guilds are killing these. Tox is not supposed to be the first HM kill, though it was for alot of guilds, just because they started there doesn't mean it is supposed to be first. If you check TSO and RoK expansions, BP was always the last piece to get, then pants, then shoulders. So using that logic Roehn Theer is the end boss, Tox is before him, Waansu, before her. If you are unable to take her down, go kill twins HM, then Maalus, then Sages. I wouldn't recommend Arkanthas, hes still a handfull. But with the changes the other 3 are easy now. Get those kills, they have better resists, stats, mit, everything and will likely push you past Waansu and Tox.

Hecula

06-17-2010, 01:24 AM

What happened to HM twins, were they stealth nerfed or something? Last 2 times we did them they were much easier than I remembered pre-GU. Almost got flawless last time except for the couple people who can't listen and stop doing stuff. Can't put that all on removal of potency cap although the fight is much shorter now.

ThomasCH

06-17-2010, 12:48 PM

Doubt anything was changed on the united twins. They seem just the same to me.

Tehom

06-17-2010, 03:16 PM

Twins seem same to me as they've been for a while.Glancing at ACT from the other night it looks like Toxxulia's crit bonus is somewhere between 115-125 or so, since she was incapable of critting on a tank with 127 crit mit, while critted a small fraction of the time on a tank with something like 111. I think tanks/healers running into survivability issues should really consider things like the mastercrafted jewelry that has crit mit for another 9-18 points or so, and if you have priests with critical aegis procs trying to build groups accordingly to take advantage of that. Killing Toxxulia first may help resolve problems with survivability depending on what classes you have available also (crit bonus debuffs and the like).

Gaige

06-21-2010, 11:32 PM

Gratz Kahling and LoS on killing Toxxulia :O

Kahling

06-22-2010, 10:19 AM

Thanks Gaige,I must admit once I had got over feeling sorry for myself, and feeling slighted by the increase in damage output we took some advice from the posts in this thread, specifically 1 line of advice.Last week we wiped constantly. Last night we went in with our new change from the advice at the end of raid just to see what a difference it made and bingo first pull vuulan down, which suprised us so much I had not informed the rest of the raid where to stand etc when they came to join on toxx so second pull dead.Night and day, and the information is in this thread if your having a problem. Kahling

EasternKing

06-22-2010, 03:32 PM

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks Gaige,I must admit once I had got over feeling sorry for myself, and feeling slighted by the increase in damage output we took some advice from the posts in this thread, specifically 1 line of advice.Last week we wiped constantly. Last night we went in with our new change from the advice at the end of raid just to see what a difference it made and bingo first pull vuulan down, which suprised us so much I had not informed the rest of the raid where to stand etc when they came to join on toxx so second pull dead.Night and day, and the information is in this thread if your having a problem. Kahling</blockquote>Congratulations <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Gaige

06-22-2010, 04:07 PM

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks Gaige,I must admit once I had got over feeling sorry for myself, and feeling slighted by the increase in damage output we took some advice from the posts in this thread, specifically 1 line of advice.Last week we wiped constantly. Last night we went in with our new change from the advice at the end of raid just to see what a difference it made and bingo first pull vuulan down, which suprised us so much I had not informed the rest of the raid where to stand etc when they came to join on toxx so second pull dead.Night and day, and the information is in this thread if your having a problem. Kahling</blockquote>This is what I like to hear, instead of complaining and saying an encounter needs to be nerfed, research was done, adjustments were made to the raid and what seemed like an impossible fight died in two pulls.A lot of mid-tier raid guilds could learn a lot from your post.

Draylore

06-23-2010, 03:39 PM

StaticLex

06-23-2010, 07:26 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tox is still the easiest hard mode NPC and killable in its intended progression and by its intended audience.</blockquote>I disagree. HM Sages are a joke now.<cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><div>I'm sorry that people are offended that they can't kill stuff, however looking at progression threads its plainly obvious what raiders are skilled and coordinated and which ones aren't.</div></blockquote>I just want to be clear , you are all for designing encounters that certain classes can not do? If i'm wrong and there are solo druids healing hard mode dps groups i wont say another word... but it does not appear possible regardless of the number of ward procs/gear./signed more then peeved off warden</blockquote>I've solo healed DPS groups on Waansu both before and after the potency change. I've solo healed a bruiser tanking Vulaan, and/or an occasional DPS group on Toxx (normally I'm in a 3 healer MT group). I've solo healed HM Twins DPS groups, HM Maalus DPS groups, HM Sages DPS groups AND as of a couple days ago I actually solo healed the crusader group on the HM Sages. I've solo healed every single easymode encounter except maybe Perah (which I can't recall since my guild stopped killing it after a couple kills) and Vaclaz in the first wing of the Hole. In TSO I solo healed every instance name.<cite>bluedego wrote:</cite><blockquote>awesome, i'm looking forward to this then. care to post a heal parse? it would seriously shed some much needed data on this.</blockquote>Heal parses will tell you very little actually. Even solo healing I tend to parse below other healers because of Turtle Shell and occasional one-shots(doh!).<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think anyone doubts the ability of the class to generate the hps needed to counter the encounter, the only question is the group's maximum hit survivability without wards (wearing only easymode gear) after the potency increase on the mob.</blockquote>I still can't understand why you feel a druid should be able to solo heal the mage group on Toxx.</blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>It woiuld only be a change to the way it was when you first killed the mob Gaige.</blockquote>So now we have a causal guild saying they do it with druids solo healing.I'm not sure what else you can say.</blockquote>Not sure what's up with the druid hate but, IMO, druids are better suited to solo heal a group on basically any encounter (inquis are [Removed for Content] too).

Tehom

06-24-2010, 02:30 AM

I tend to be a little bit perplexed by people undervaluing druids myself, considering how strong they are this expansion. I play a defiler, but we typically do a warden/defiler MT group on most things, and furies and inquisitors seem to be the strongest healers for dps groups to me. Personally, I think the crit mit buff and tortoise shell tends to make a more solid 2-priest MT group on hardmodes than a cleric/shaman, but that's just personal preference.I really think priests are better balanced now than they probably have been at any other point in the game's history that I can recall, so I don't really get blaming their priests being druids for being unable to take down hardmodes.

Mathafern

06-24-2010, 11:36 AM

My .02$ on healers, especially in a mixed up fight like hard Tox: IT IS THE PLAYER, NOT THE CLASS. Seriously, I know a warden who walks on water when it comes to heals. Some healers overfocus on healing and fail at removing dots; some overcast and burn power rather than paying attention to whether a recast is needed or not; some preward, others cast one ward in the middle of the fight and then go get a drink.I know some classes are better than others for certain roles, but I think people pay too much attention to class sometimes- particularly when they base their class biases on an individual. Learn to look past the class folks. I can name an _individual_ healer of each and every heal class who could easily solo heal me as an OT or caster through hard tox. If you think you can't solo heal hard tox, let me clue you in: REMOVE THE DOTS ASAP. REMOVE THE CURSE. Then heal. Then go get your drink.

Travleer33

06-30-2010, 05:20 PM

<cite>Kahling@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks Gaige,I must admit once I had got over feeling sorry for myself, and feeling slighted by the increase in damage output we took some advice from the posts in this thread, specifically 1 line of advice.Last week we wiped constantly. Last night we went in with our new change from the advice at the end of raid just to see what a difference it made and bingo first pull vuulan down, which suprised us so much I had not informed the rest of the raid where to stand etc when they came to join on toxx so second pull dead.Night and day, and the information is in this thread if your having a problem. Kahling</blockquote>We fianly managed to kill it too. Its now on farm status.I still beleive the new waansu is rediculous - if killable.

Crismorn

06-30-2010, 05:28 PM

<cite>Mathafern@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>My .02$ on healers, especially in a mixed up fight like hard Tox: IT IS THE PLAYER, NOT THE CLASS. Seriously, I know a warden who walks on water when it comes to heals. Some healers overfocus on healing and fail at removing dots; some overcast and burn power rather than paying attention to whether a recast is needed or not; some preward, others cast one ward in the middle of the fight and then go get a drink.I know some classes are better than others for certain roles, but I think people pay too much attention to class sometimes- particularly when they base their class biases on an individual. Learn to look past the class folks. I can name an _individual_ healer of each and every heal class who could easily solo heal me as an OT or caster through hard tox. If you think you can't solo heal hard tox, let me clue you in: REMOVE THE DOTS ASAP. REMOVE THE CURSE. Then heal. Then go get your drink.</blockquote>Healing is even more of a joke this xpac then it was last xpac, but you are right the class does not matter.Just like heroic content all raid content can be solo healed by any healer, because its a joke

Thunndar316

07-11-2010, 12:06 PM

I'm getting one shotted in Vigilant 1 for ***** sake!21K AoE's in a HEROIC ZONE

Banditman

07-12-2010, 09:30 AM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm getting one shotted in Vigilant 1 for ***** sake!21K AoE's in a HEROIC ZONE</blockquote>Doing something wrong.

Carthr

07-12-2010, 09:42 AM

Cure the trauma..

Nebbeny

07-12-2010, 12:30 PM

can't cure stun reliably on self, and can't cure myself while stunned, personally i find vigilant zones to be hell, i can survive the trauma if i happen to have a stoneskin on, or the tank manages to get an intervene on me, otherwise, splat goes the druid!

NaeenSpeedbringer

07-12-2010, 12:59 PM

<cite>Nebbeny wrote:</cite><blockquote>can't cure stun reliably on self, and can't cure myself while stunned, personally i find vigilant zones to be hell, i can survive the trauma if i happen to have a stoneskin on, or the tank manages to get an intervene on me, otherwise, splat goes the druid!</blockquote>take 2 healers or put tranquility on yourself. if you're a fury, betray to the better druid. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" />

Yimway

07-12-2010, 01:42 PM

freedom of mind potions, status clickies.I find I use them while solo healing and dealing with the trauma on myself.

Nebbeny

07-12-2010, 02:18 PM

I'm one of the better druids and not a fan of taking two healers unless i know the other can dps as well <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> tranquility is great, but unless you have the red adorn, there is what, a 1/3 chance that it'll cure you? I just find it silly and a little frustrating at times thats all, especially if you try and do all three of them at the same time. Went into Vigi 1 without a second healer, dirge paladin or necromancer. so i was the only person able to rez, that zone was a pain in the rear i tell you. may of ended up throwing my computer out of the window if it wasn't for rebirth and rez signets I got trauma'd so many times!

BChizzle

07-12-2010, 02:42 PM

<cite>Nebbeny wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm one of the better druids and not a fan of taking two healers unless i know the other can dps as well <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> tranquility is great, but unless you have the red adorn, there is what, a 1/3 chance that it'll cure you? I just find it silly and a little frustrating at times thats all, especially if you try and do all three of them at the same time. Went into Vigi 1 without a second healer, dirge paladin or necromancer. so i was the only person able to rez, that zone was a pain in the rear i tell you. may of ended up throwing my computer out of the window if it wasn't for rebirth and rez signets I got trauma'd so many times!</blockquote>I play a mystic alt and I am not really all that great with him, I solo healed vig1 and it wasnt hard at all. You just have to cure the trauma.

Nebbeny

07-12-2010, 03:36 PM

I'm not saying it's hard, I've solo healed it plenty, just saying it's irritating and makes vigilant something i'll only run if it's the daily etc. And i'd love to cure the trauma, really, but since it's a stun, unless i use a one shot item to make me immune then cure it, i can't cure it, thats all. It's not something i'm begging to have changed, though if it didn't one shot me when i can't cure it that'd be awesome, or if they did similar to spirits where the priest if there is only 1 can't be possessed (atleast i've never seen it happen) then that'd also be great, otherwise, it's just another crazy mechanic we have to live (or not) with.

EQPrime

07-12-2010, 03:43 PM

<cite>Nebbeny wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not saying it's hard, I've solo healed it plenty, just saying it's irritating and makes vigilant something i'll only run if it's the daily etc. And i'd love to cure the trauma, really, but since it's a stun, unless i use a one shot item to make me immune then cure it, i can't cure it, thats all. It's not something i'm begging to have changed, though if it didn't one shot me when i can't cure it that'd be awesome, or if they did similar to spirits where the priest if there is only 1 can't be possessed (atleast i've never seen it happen) then that'd also be great, otherwise, it's just another crazy mechanic we have to live (or not) with.</blockquote>Get more HP and it will not 1-shot you. Since you're a warden you don't even have to worry too much about the power drain from it either.I don't think the trauma has anything do do with the potency issue discussed in this thread where people are seeing Tox and Waansu AoEs hitting harder either. It seems to behave the same way it did before GU56.