Rangers getting jack for updates

[Carpediem]

<p>Since the ranger forums are an oubliette for devs and we haven't heard a thing from them for months, I figured I would post here.</p><p>We heard plenty about fixes that were going to happen, such as:</p><p>1) AE auto attack and flurry from ranged attacks</p><p>2) Making rangers more ranged dps, so they didn't have to fight within 5 minutes of a mob.</p><p>3) Adding a menu option to enable always ranged auto attack, for when we use melee CA's.</p><p>Rothgar said he wouldn't have time to get this in before the expansion launch but would look into it after. We haven't heard a single thing about it since then. Patch notes come and nothing in there for rangers, yet on raids we have SK's and rogues doing tons more dps than us.</p><p>I'm glad you guys had time to do things like revamp a travel system which has worked fine for the last 6 years, yet don't have time to work on class issues.</p><p>I read Aeralik's post about how leadership changes and priorities change with them and I understand how frustrating that must be but, to ignore issues like an ostrich with it's head in the ground hoping that it will go away is only making people upset and cancel their accounts.</p><p>We need some kind of feedback on what you guys are doing because right now the assumption is nothing.</p>

[Ranja]

<p>/signed</p><p>Quitting the game after 5 years of ranger playtime because of the wall of silence. Sick of giving my money to a coorporation that ignores customer feedback.</p><p>I will do my best to make sure no one I know ever plays an SOE game again.</p>

[Upir]

<p>someone start the timer....</p>

[Magnethjelmen2]

<p>/bump</p>

[Noob1974]

<p>I said it before int est forum with gu56 no ranger updates and in the ranger itself.....</p><p>Even Rothgar never gave a timeline  it was the expectation of the ranger community when not immediate that with gu56 to get atleast something... but theres nothing.......</p><p>Only summoned ammons for other scouts and brawler, better dmg ratd melee weapon for scouts and 2h weapon for crusader with the same dmg rating as bows.......</p><p>Be serious theres nothing happening till/with gu57, the BG Crowd needs new fields, armor,jewelry and Velios is making is appearance.</p><p>Devs know about the expectation about the expansion, so they rahter spend the time in this than to fix the ranger class....</p><p>Funnily with GU56 and uncapped potency that gap between sins and ranger widens......</p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><span style="color: #993366;">AoE autoattack on ranged attacks would be overpowered, it would be better to ask for something like a permanant proc that has a chance to do AoE damage sort of like brawlers WIS line.</span></p>

[Nevao]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">AoE autoattack on ranged attacks would be overpowered, it would be better to ask for something like a permanant proc that has a chance to do AoE damage sort of like brawlers WIS line.</span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">That's the problem a lot of things are "too powerful" for rangers but we never see a balancing effect, we just don't get it. This leads to those whom it is not too powerful for bypassing our only function, dps. The thing is that this time we were told by Rothgar that he talked to Xelgad and Xel had some ideas on how to make it work (my guess is that does less damage to balance out) but then we never heard about it again.</span></p>

[Carpediem]

<p>How would it be overpowered when we would only have a 29% chance to AE auto attack (compaired to what swashes get) and a much slower attack speed?</p><p>Granted, I know there are adornments to increase the percentage but melee classes get those same adornments.</p><p>Not only would they keep people from quitting by fixing us, they would also get people to return who left the game over frustration of having the carrot dangled in front of them for years.</p>

[Writer Cal]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">AoE autoattack on ranged attacks would be overpowered, it would be better to ask for something like a permanant proc that has a chance to do AoE damage sort of like brawlers WIS line.</span></p></blockquote><p>But two handers with bow damage ratings using AoE auto-attack isn't OP?</p>

[Eritius]

<p>How would it be OP for Rangers to have ranged AOE auto attacks? Their damage would go up on trash, but not bosses. Which they'd still be lacking.</p><p>Last I knew, bosses dropped loot, not trash (maybe the occasional adept).</p><p>What needs to happen with Rangers is reduce their proc damage (remove some of the procs all together) and up their CA damage. Their auto attack damage looks like its fine, its those CA's that aren't. Also by reducing the procs you get them in line in PVP (if they need it, thats still debateable, make another thread for that) as well.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>Daenee@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">AoE autoattack on ranged attacks would be overpowered, it would be better to ask for something like a permanant proc that has a chance to do AoE damage sort of like brawlers WIS line.</span></p></blockquote><p>But two handers with bow damage ratings using AoE auto-attack isn't OP?</p></blockquote><p>This.</p><p>Here's a two hander (that can use auto AE and flurry btw) and an example bow of the most top damage and DR we can have on a bow. Granted that 2hander is off a difficult mob (3 rune theer), and the bow is off hard toxx, but the fact remains it's possible.</p><p><img src="http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3596/swordbow.jpg" width="614" height="589" /></p><p>As a matter of fact auto AE and flurry would be so ordinary for us, I doubt it would be able to fully close the gap in DPS disparities for rangers. This is why I am reluctant to specifically ask for flurry and auto AE and instead I push the point home of the desired end result, <strong>more DPS</strong>.</p><p>Increase our CA damage, preferably on ranged CA's. If your worried about it giving us more 'power' in PvP well they have different damage and effect tables for CA's in PvP, so just don't increase those.</p>

[FearDiadh]

<p>I officially welcome this post to the recycle bin.. er ranger forum...</p>

[Carpediem]

<p>Knew that wouldn't take long. Thanks for throwing away our topic Kiara.</p>

[FearDiadh]

<p>Rangers should not be part of gameplay? </p><p>I would lol, but to be honest not many are anymore.</p>

[Sydares]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><img src="http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3596/swordbow.jpg" width="614" height="589" /></p></blockquote><p>Well. Now I'm more angry about lack of ranged AE autoattack / flurry then ever before. There's literally no legitimate excuse anymore.</p>

[Upir]

<p>it almost made it 3 hrs before it got moved....</p>

[Proud_Silence]

<p>you want to do same dps like assassins who have a 5m action radius and have to joust AE's while you have 35m+ action radius, and don't have to care about most AE's.</p><p>Yeah right, dream on.</p>

[FearDiadh]

<p><cite>Proud_Silence wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>you want to do same dps like assassins who have a 5m action radius and have to joust AE's while you have 35m+ action radius, and don't have to care about most AE's.</p><p>Yeah right, dream on.</p></blockquote><p>I can't do max damage unless I am in a tiny little area no bigger than yours that is far enough away to get auto attack off and close enough to get melee CAs off.  Your 35 m ranged theory is flawed.</p><p>Most raid assassins I have heard from are saying they do not need to joust this expansion because of all their AAs.  I unfortunately can't do that.  I never get in a tank group because I have nothing to offer.  My one healer group and 20k hp means I have to jump when they say out.</p>

[Venez]

<p><cite>Proud_Silence wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>you want to do same dps like assassins who have a 5m action radius and have to joust AE's while you have 35m+ action radius, and don't have to care about most AE's.</p><p>Yeah right, dream on.</p></blockquote><p>Typical response by a complete idiot who has no clue what he is talking about. Before you put your foot in your mouth, you "might" want to do a litte research on how Rangers are really played.</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neiloch@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><img src="http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3596/swordbow.jpg" width="614" height="589" /></p></blockquote><p>Well. Now I'm more angry about lack of ranged AE autoattack / flurry then ever before. There's literally no legitimate excuse anymore.</p></blockquote><p>The only issue is what we discussed in the beta forums. How do you make ranged AOE auto atk?Is it a frontal hitting any NPC in a 50M+  frontal cone?Is it a Point Blank AOE centered on your target?<-- Imho best possibly solutionIs it a Melee ranged AOE autoatk using the bow?</p><p>Honestly rangers have fallen drastically since beta and they need to find a resolution to the AOE auto atk and flurry issue asap.</p><p>Also rangers have been complaining lately of the thrown weapon that summons ammo. The problem with making a bow that summons ammo now is the ammo it summons should not be better then the raid dropped ammo. So it doesnt really help the ranger dps issues either.</p>

[Striikor]

<p><cite>Proud_Silence wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>you want to do same dps like assassins who have a 5m action radius and have to joust AE's while you have 35m+ action radius, and don't have to care about most AE's.</p><p>Yeah right, dream on.</p></blockquote><p>Yup stay proud but mostly .... stay silent, at least till you know something about how to DPS as a ranger, it is clearly evident you don't. </p>

[Nevao]

<p><cite>Jack@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I officially welcome this post to the recycle bin.. er ranger forum...</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Well I suppose we can take solace in two things. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">1) Our threads weren't merged "to focus the discussion".</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">2) We got some attention!!!! But still no answers...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Yeah, no better off than before, just concentrated in one area to limit the noise.</span></p>

[Katsi]

<p>Ok, this is probably a stupid question, but it's been bugging me...</p><p>As one who has far too often seen my arrows fly over the tank's head when he switches target from the dead mob to the next a little too quickly, and consequently gets chewed out more often than I like (although the tanks have been getting more understanding lately, I don't know why)...</p><p>Why do people want uncontrolled (auto attack based) AoEs?</p><p>I could understand wanting a couple more blue ranged CAs, but why would you want to have the chance of randomly (or even constantly) pulling nearby mobs, that you cannot turn off?</p><p>~ Cerilynn</p>

[Carpediem]

<p><cite>Cerilynn@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok, this is probably a stupid question, but it's been bugging me...</p><p>As one who has far too often seen my arrows fly over the tank's head when he switches target from the dead mob to the next a little too quickly, and consequently gets chewed out more often than I like (although the tanks have been getting more understanding lately, I don't know why)...</p><p>Why do people want uncontrolled (auto attack based) AoEs?</p><p>I could understand wanting a couple more blue ranged CAs, but why would you want to have the chance of randomly (or even constantly) pulling nearby mobs, that you cannot turn off?</p><p>~ Cerilynn</p></blockquote><p>With a 10m radius the mobs would be aggro whether you hit them with an arrow or not.</p>

[Katsi]

<p><cite>akaglty wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cerilynn@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok, this is probably a stupid question, but it's been bugging me...</p><p>As one who has far too often seen my arrows fly over the tank's head when he switches target from the dead mob to the next a little too quickly, and consequently gets chewed out more often than I like (although the tanks have been getting more understanding lately, I don't know why)...</p><p>Why do people want uncontrolled (auto attack based) AoEs?</p><p>I could understand wanting a couple more blue ranged CAs, but why would you want to have the chance of randomly (or even constantly) pulling nearby mobs, that you cannot turn off?</p><p>~ Cerilynn</p></blockquote><p>With a 10m radius the mobs would be aggro whether you hit them with an arrow or not.</p></blockquote><p>Not that it's needed lately, but not if they've been mezzed, and hitting them would break the mez.</p><p>And, assuming your 10m AoE radius, if it centers on your target (or assumed target) that wouldn't be within 10m of you, but 10m beyond the mob, which sometimes is beyond the tank, sometimes to the side, and thus might hit mobs normally out of aggro range. ... not to mention that walls often don't block AoEs, and then you pull from a whole other room.. and the non-agressive mobs that you might not want to hit, but are nearby...</p><p>I still don't see the benifit of having AoEs attached to autoattack.</p><p>~ Cerilynn</p>

[kartikeya]

<p>If it's treated like a blue AOE, it won't break mez. Those haven't broken mez in a long long long time. It would be annoying on fights like, say, Waansu, where AEs end up being a huge detriment if they go off at the wrong time, but every non-spell casting DPS class has to deal with that.</p><p>Frankly, I just want DPS. I don't care how they do it. I don't care if it involves giving me flurry or AE autoattack (though honestly we should at LEAST get flurry, because there's no way the coding somehow doesn't exist for that when it exists for doubleattack). I want to be able to compete. I should be doing comparable damage to a same skilled, similarly geared assassin, warlock, and wizard. I should be doing MORE DPS than swashbucklers, unless they have a massive gear advantage over me.</p><p>If we don't get AE auto attack, we really should have more AE capabilities though (or shorter recast timers on our current AEs, which are nice but the recast is very long and thus the AE damage is not sustainable). Part of the reason swashy DPS is so insane at the high end right now is because of their AE capabilities, and warlocks likewise. There are too many AE fights in the game now to be limited on it.</p>

[Carpediem]

<p>If they put our AE's on 10-30 second recast timers I wouldn't care about AE auto attack. As it is right now though, we burn through our AE's and have to wait 1-2 minutes before we can cast them again.</p><p>I don't think most rangers would mind if we AE dps and assassins single target dps. As it is right now we fail in both.</p><p>It should be something like this:</p><p>Exploding Arrow - 10 second recast</p><p>Arrow Barrage - 30 second recast</p><p>Storm of Arrows - 25 second recast</p><p>Natural Selection - 15 second recast</p><p>Stream of Arrows - 20 second recast</p><p>If they lowered our recast timers it would fix the issue with having to stand in to use melee CA's because we wouldn't run out of ranged CA's so fast and melee could be situational, like for PvP when someone gets in close to you, which is what it should be.</p><p>If they even just tried this in test to see how it works I would be thrilled but, they aren't even testing solutions.</p>

[Nevao]

<p><cite>Cerilynn@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok, this is probably a stupid question, but it's been bugging me...</p><p>As one who has far too often seen my arrows fly over the tank's head when he switches target from the dead mob to the next a little too quickly, and consequently gets chewed out more often than I like (although the tanks have been getting more understanding lately, I don't know why)...</p><p>Why do people want uncontrolled (auto attack based) AoEs?</p><p>I could understand wanting a couple more blue ranged CAs, but why would you want to have the chance of randomly (or even constantly) pulling nearby mobs, that you cannot turn off?</p><p>~ Cerilynn</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">When it was primarly just Swashies that had this, and only Swashies that could use it effectively, it wasn't a big deal. But now that Auto Attack damage is higher across the board, AA buffs (some for self, other like Arms of Imagination available to pass out) and Adorns we're in a situation where all non-caster classes have a chance to effectively use this, except for Rangers. As the DPS gap continues to grow the last thing we need is this type of "ability" that is completely shut off from our class.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">But as to your point about not being able to turn off, that's a complete assumption on your part, at least with the exception of the Adornments. All of the DPS class related abilities/AA's that grant this can be toggled. That would be even more necessary for Rangers. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss an idea just becuase you haven't thought of all the implementation options.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">That said I really don't think this alone, or this and Ranged Flurry, is going to fix the problems we have. However it is something we were told they were going to look into and had ideas about when this first blew up during Beta. They need to either follow through or say "sorry off the table".</span></p>

[FearDiadh]

<p>I went to vigx2 tonight.  I have AAs into increasing my auto attack damage, I have an enervated buff that increases auto attack damage and my crit bonus was at about 90.  My crits and double attack were both over 100.  I was using the wyrm tendon bow (172dr) and t9 field points.  I timed my combat arts with my auto attacks so I would not lose auto attack.</p><p>The dirge did over 1k more auto attack damage than me on the zw.  During this time he was also running around rezzing and doing... I don't know... whatever else a dirge does.  The dirge has 1.3 crit?  I have 1.5 +.45 from aa and buff, +.9 from CB.   I am not saying the dirge doesn't have CB but he doesn't have more than 90... I have AA for CB too...</p><p>So ranger auto attack damage sucks.  Of course it does, dual wielders are carrying a pair of 130 dr weaps and we get 1 weap at 172.  It does not take a mathematician to see the problem there.</p><p>Now bear in mind that our combat art damage is not as high as sorc spell damage and is not as high as assassin CA damage. </p><p>So our auto attack is lower than other melee classes.  Our combat arts are lower damage than other T1 dps classes and we bring the least amount of utility of any of them.  Oh and we get to pay for every auto attack.  Nice. </p>

[Katsi]

<p><cite>Nevao wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cerilynn@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok, this is probably a stupid question, but it's been bugging me...</p><p>As one who has far too often seen my arrows fly over the tank's head when he switches target from the dead mob to the next a little too quickly, and consequently gets chewed out more often than I like (although the tanks have been getting more understanding lately, I don't know why)...</p><p>Why do people want uncontrolled (auto attack based) AoEs?</p><p>I could understand wanting a couple more blue ranged CAs, but why would you want to have the chance of randomly (or even constantly) pulling nearby mobs, that you cannot turn off?</p><p>~ Cerilynn</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">When it was primarly just Swashies that had this, and only Swashies that could use it effectively, it wasn't a big deal. But now that Auto Attack damage is higher across the board, AA buffs (some for self, other like Arms of Imagination available to pass out) and Adorns we're in a situation where all non-caster classes have a chance to effectively use this, except for Rangers. As the DPS gap continues to grow the last thing we need is this type of "ability" that is completely shut off from our class.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">But as to your point about not being able to turn off, that's a complete assumption on your part, at least with the exception of the Adornments. <strong>All of the DPS class related abilities/AA's that grant this can be toggled.</strong> That would be even more necessary for Rangers. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss an idea just becuase you haven't thought of all the implementation options.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">That said I really don't think this alone, or this and Ranged Flurry, is going to fix the problems we have. However it is something we were told they were going to look into and had ideas about when this first blew up during Beta. They need to either follow through or say "sorry off the table".</span></p></blockquote><p>At this point, I feel I need to point out that I'm a stickler for word usage.  By making this a "class related ability" or "AA"  means that it is not the autoattack itself.  It would be a buff or stance that affects the autoattack.  In my mind, this is a significant difference.</p><p>I can understand a buff or stance that I can toggle, that would produce an AoE proc off my autoattack.  I do not understand making my autoattack AoE.</p><p>On a side note, I also wish that they had stayed consistent with the color coding of the icons.  For the longest time I thought that I only had one true AoE, and ended up learning the hard way about some of the others.  Consider me a curmudgeon of an old lady who likes things organized properly.  The teacups have to be on their matching saucers and their handles all pointing the same way.</p><p>~ Cerilynn</p>

[glowsintheda]

<p>as far as I know, all AE auto attack except for the stuff from adorns comes from a toggelable buff, so it is something you can turn on or off at will</p>

[Sydares]

<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The only issue is what we discussed in the beta forums. How do you make ranged AOE auto atk?</p><p>Is it a frontal hitting any NPC in a 50M+  frontal cone?<strong>Is it a Point Blank AOE centered on your target?</strong><-- Imho best possibly solutionIs it a Melee ranged AOE autoatk using the bow?</p></blockquote><p>That would be the most graceful way of doing it, and the coding already exists in Exploding Arrow. For them to say it 'just doesn't exist in the code' has always been little more than a stalling tactic for "We don't feel like dealing with Ranger class balance right now."</p>

[feldon30]

<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">AoE autoattack on ranged attacks would be overpowered, it would be better to ask for something like a permanant proc that has a chance to do AoE damage sort of like brawlers WIS line.</span></p></blockquote><p>Lethe plays an assassin not a ranger.</p><p><img src="http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_jul2003/Imposter.jpg" width="610" height="370" /></p><p>We've got an imposter.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p><cite>akaglty wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If they put our AE's on 10-30 second recast timers I wouldn't care about AE auto attack. As it is right now though, we burn through our AE's and have to wait 1-2 minutes before we can cast them again.</p><p>I don't think most rangers would mind if we AE dps and assassins single target dps. As it is right now we fail in both.</p><p>It should be something like this:</p><p>Exploding Arrow - 10 second recast</p><p>Arrow Barrage - 30 second recast</p><p>Storm of Arrows - 25 second recast</p><p>Natural Selection - 15 second recast</p><p>Stream of Arrows - 20 second recast</p><p>If they lowered our recast timers it would fix the issue with having to stand in to use melee CA's because we wouldn't run out of ranged CA's so fast and melee could be situational, like for PvP when someone gets in close to you, which is what it should be.</p><p>If they even just tried this in test to see how it works I would be thrilled but, they aren't even testing solutions.</p></blockquote><p>I've suggested something similar. Just making it so we can be more solid with our ae DPS with CA's also has some appeal that having auto ae on bow doesn't. Rangers wouldn't need to adjust as much to it, wouldn't have to worry about the auto ae stat itself, could AE in very controlled manner opposed to the random chance auto AE, and it would be extremely easy to implement once values are decided on. Simply modifiing some values on some CA's opposed to suposedly having to code in new mecanics for bows.</p><p>Right now when it comes to AE fights, our choices are to unload ALL of our AE's on one fight and keep up, but then lose horribly on following AE fights until Stream and/or Barrage are up, and still not do that well. Or try to ae in 'moderation' which again just gets us trounced on the parse. Because of this I think if you put the AE CA's on a faster recast, even if you lowered the damage on them to scale our zonewide DPS would still go up. Not by a whole lot though since not every fight is AE.</p><p>So again, rangers want increased DPS through ranged CA's. I know I do at least heh.</p>

[Harlequin]

<p>I recently returned to the game and I've started trying to do shard runs.  Things must have gotten much worse in the last year or two, because for the first time I am very often getting shut-out of PUGs who posted in chat they were looking for DPS to join a group doing a shard run.  I know this isn't a surprise to many of you, but when I tell the group leader my class and level, very often I'll get one of two responses -- sorry, we're looking for something else, or, let me see if anyone else responds and I'll get back to you.  The other night I actually had someone tell me how their guild actually had to "carry" a ranger in the guild through shard runs.</p><p>In any case, I'm almost at the point where I'd accept UTILITY over even DPS.  Just give me something that groups would like to have.  I don't even find us all that great solo.  Sure, given nice clear space between us and a mob we can take down most non-heroic things, but most of the solo zones consist of quests in very crowded areas where firing an arrow will provoke the entire area to attack, or where there is very little room to maneuver for the very precise positioning we require.  Frankly, as a start, I think they should get rid of minimum attack range on bows for rangers altogether and balance from there.  It doesn't make any sense.</p>

[Hedah]

<p>Say no to ranged AE Auto Attack and yes to ranged Auto Attack flurry.</p><p>Give Focus Aim a 20-25% flurry buff for ranged. Make the buff itself raidwide.</p><p>Just my thoughts.</p><p>-Hedah</p>

[Sydares]

<p><cite>Hedah wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Say no to ranged AE Auto Attack and yes to ranged Auto Attack flurry.</p></blockquote><p>No.</p>

[Neiloch]

Can't really understand the argument of ranged auto AE would pull more extra mobs than the melee version if it radiates from the target. Just make the range it radiates the same as melee auto AE. In any event given a choice I would rather have faster recasting AE CA's then auto AE anyway. At that point auto AE auto wouldn't be a stat we are missing out on, would be a stat we don't have to worry about. Which is the way it should be, if we can't use a stat at all or even close to fully it should be because it wouldn't be much use to us, not because we were purposely excluded from it.

[Hedah]

<p>What's your reasoning behind wanting AE over flurry?</p><p>-Hedah</p>

[Sydares]

<p><cite>Hedah wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What's your reasoning behind wanting AE over flurry?</p></blockquote><p>What's your reasoning for assuming that we shouldn't have access to both?</p>

[Hedah]

<p>Well of course I would like both. That would be incredible and truely put us on par with where we should be. But honestly I wont hold my breath for both.</p><p>If I had to decide I would go with flurry every time.</p><p>-Hedah</p>

[Sydares]

<p>This isn't a class balance negotiation - this is getting them to fix outdated broken mechanics so that we stop being left behind in every single expansion that features enhancements based on those broken mechanics.</p>

[Hedah]

<p>It's a pipe dream to think that we'll be given AE and Flurry auto-attacks. It just wont happen. I would love to think that the devs would see the ranger class as the red-headed stepchild that it is; being left behind in every expansion, while other scout classes and even mage classes quickly gain major advances in DPS.</p><p>I honestly want to see both. But we both know it probably wont happen. I believe that the devs are just to scared to touch a class that has been plagued with bad mechanics and dreadful mis-management for so long and that changing them now would be admitting a wrong doing in the first place. Ignore the 900 pound gorilla in the room and it doesn't exist.</p><p>Look at all the posts in this forum. Not a single reply. Not one, "We're working on it still, update soon" post from ANYONE. Look at the history of devs consistantly ignoring the ranger problem and tell me I'm wrong.</p><p>Again let me reiterate that I'm not against both. I am for both. I'm just being realistic when looking at what our class has gone through in the past and what we've been left out on.</p><p>I suppose it is possible that with the new SP we may get some well deserved attention but I have not seen any posts or quotes from him since his original interview over a month (2 months?) ago. But again I'm not going to hold my breath.</p><p>-Hedah</p>

[Sydares]

<p><cite>Hedah wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Look at all the posts in this forum. Not a single reply. Not one, "We're working on it still, update soon" post from ANYONE. Look at the history of devs consistantly ignoring the ranger problem and tell me I'm wrong.</p></blockquote><p>That's been annoying me, and I glanced back through the dev tracker - no class is getting class balance information. None. They're getting updates on bugfixes to specifically broken abilities, but I think it's fallacious to assume that they're not <em>reading</em> these threads, or that we should <em>be more realistic</em> about our goals.</p><p>A lack of input from the developers doesn't mean we're barking up the wrong tree. It just means they're unwilling to talk about class balance, so... No. With respect, I have no intention of pursuing anything less than full equality for our class.</p>

[glowsintheda]

<p><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Hedah wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Look at all the posts in this forum. Not a single reply. Not one, "We're working on it still, update soon" post from ANYONE. Look at the history of devs consistantly ignoring the ranger problem and tell me I'm wrong.</p></blockquote><p>That's been annoying me, and I glanced back through the dev tracker - no class is getting class balance information. None. They're getting updates on bugfixes to specifically broken abilities, but I think it's fallacious to assume that they're not <em>reading</em> these threads, or that we should <em>be more realistic</em> about our goals.</p><p>A lack of input from the developers doesn't mean we're barking up the wrong tree. It just means they're unwilling to talk about class balance, so... No. With respect, I have no intention of pursuing anything less than full equality for our class.</p></blockquote><p>Hopefully by that you mean ascess to all the same mechanics (AE auto and Flurry) and also some sort of parity with sorcs and sins in regards to DPS/utility combo.  I personally would have no problem becoming the AE predator as long as we become a true AE class and are able to sustain it in the way that warlocks and swashies do.   The only thing that would be missing then is some utility that is of equal value to assassins hate transfer and we might actually become a wanted class. (personally I would rather just have a pure DPS advantage and say screw the utility, but as I don't see that ever happening, may as well ask for something that would give us the group desirability that we currently lack.  As far as what that should be...)</p>

[Sydares]

<p><cite>glowsinthedark wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hopefully by that you mean ascess to all the same mechanics (AE auto and Flurry) and also some sort of parity with sorcs and sins in regards to DPS/utility combo.  I personally would have no problem becoming the AE predator as long as we become a true AE class and are able to sustain it in the way that warlocks and swashies do.   The only thing that would be missing then is some utility that is of equal value to assassins hate transfer and we might actually become a wanted class. (personally I would rather just have a pure DPS advantage and say screw the utility, but as I don't see that ever happening, may as well ask for something that would give us the group desirability that we currently lack.  As far as what that should be...)</p></blockquote><p>Yes on all counts. We need access to the same mechanics, as well as a reason to put us in the groups that give us the most beneficial buffs. Currently, hate transfer scouts are able to get a spot in the MT group (usually containing a dirge and a coercer) with relatively no problem because of the added utility. We have no such utility to warrant similar group placement - this has always been one of the underlying concerns for Rangers and shouldn't come as an "either/or" in terms of DPS <em>or </em>Utility. Realistically, both need tweaking.</p>

[Mathrim]

<p>Well....I just did the only thing that matters.</p><p>I just cancelled my subscription on my main account with my ranger of 6+ years.  Subscription runs out in 4 days.  I can no longer justify giving Sony my money for a class with this many issues.</p><p>My second account with my Mystic cancelled too and runs out on the 30th of this month.  I will continue playing him for the next couple of weeks to see if I can tolerate the game until the next MMO comes out.  Please hurry SW:TOR.</p><p>If Sony doesn't respond in some way regarding the current state of the ranger and I don't enjoy playing the healer full time, then I'm done with this game.</p>

[Noob1974]

<p>Did you read smokejumpers post... theres NOTHING coming for rangers.....</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>Umm how did you read that as nothing coming for rangers? If that says there's nothing coming for rangers in that post there's nothing coming for anyone else.</p>

[Ocello]

<p><cite>Neiloch@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Daenee@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">AoE autoattack on ranged attacks would be overpowered, it would be better to ask for something like a permanant proc that has a chance to do AoE damage sort of like brawlers WIS line.</span></p></blockquote><p>But two handers with bow damage ratings using AoE auto-attack isn't OP?</p></blockquote><p>This.</p><p>Here's a two hander (that can use auto AE and flurry btw) and an example bow of the most top damage and DR we can have on a bow. Granted that 2hander is off a difficult mob (3 rune theer), and the bow is off hard toxx, but the fact remains it's possible.</p><p><img src="http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3596/swordbow.jpg" width="614" height="589" /></p><p>As a matter of fact auto AE and flurry would be so ordinary for us, I doubt it would be able to fully close the gap in DPS disparities for rangers. This is why I am reluctant to specifically ask for flurry and auto AE and instead I push the point home of the desired end result, <strong>more DPS</strong>.</p><p>Increase our CA damage, preferably on ranged CA's. If your worried about it giving us more 'power' in PvP well they have different damage and effect tables for CA's in PvP, so just don't increase those.</p></blockquote><p>Um notice the classes that use that sword?  Those are tanks.  We have to sacrifice a shield to use it.  Without a shield we are basically dead meat.  You are DPS, and for that matter can even use a shield without losing DPS in theory (sorry itemization blows).  Rangers with aoe auto and flurry can die a fiery death without some form of hate transfer, period.</p>

[Mathrim]

<p>Really Ocello?  Really?</p><p>You want to tell me that there are NO tanks who ever run a raid without a shield.  You gonna tell me I've never seen a Berserker, Paladin, or Shadowknight dual wielding on Ernax, or Sara, or Hraakat, or 20 other [Removed for Content] raid mobs?</p><p>Your comment was about as pointless as most of the rest of the people who post about rangers with no personal experience.</p><p>Nothing you said changes the fact that 2handers now have HIGHER DPS and LOWER DELAY  that are capable of AE auto attacking and flurry.</p><p>Whether or not you choose to use them doesn't matter.</p>

[Neiloch]

<p>On a raid only so many tanks can actually tank unless they arranged some sort of unnecessary tank rotation for single encounters that serve no real purpose. I know for a FACT tanks on my raids would be using those swords if they could and aren't the MT. On all trash and some of the easier fights for sure. MT would probably even use the 2hander on some select fights.</p><p>I also know for a fact that I wouldn't take aggro doing more AE DPS and triggering flurries. I know this because if I decide to hold back on fights (screwing what ZW I could have) and unload on a AE fight I can get about 60k parse, and spike for 100k for a couple of seconds at the START where the tank has the least amount of aggro. And guess what? I didn't pull any mobs. Not a single one. Since doing that high DPS has been proven not to certainly take aggro, the only other alternative is thinking having these stats would push us WELL past a sustained 60k AE parse. This would not happen, not even close.</p><p>The biggest gripe with AE Auto and flurry is that we are being excluded from these mechanics, not that it would 100% fix our class and they're just not giving it to us. We would need a look over bow itemization and combat arts IN ADDITION to ae auto and flurry to start approaching fixed rangers.</p><p>The amount of ignorance you have shown here is amazing.</p>

[Sydares]

<p><cite>Ocello wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Um notice the classes that use that sword?  Those are tanks.  We have to sacrifice a shield to use it.  Without a shield we are basically dead meat.  You are DPS, and for that matter can even use a shield without losing DPS in theory (sorry itemization blows).  Rangers with aoe auto and flurry can die a fiery death without some form of hate transfer, period.</p></blockquote><p>Oh, look. A hotbar. The perfect place to put a tanking sword, a shield, and a 2H sword. Why, it's almost as if they were hotswappable in combat and if something unforeseen happened, you could equip a shield instantly.</p><p>Any other insightfully misguided commentary to offer?</p>

[Neiloch]

HA! I take it back, tanks I know wouldn't use it in some select fights. They'd use it any time a mob isn't looking at them. Hell they'd prolly use it to TAKE aggro, then swap to the sword and board.

[Kithica]

All the bull crap anyone posts can't compete with the psrse in every raid or group where the ranger lists last or just ahead of the healers. Rangers need to be fixed. It's just not fun anymore.

[Neiloch]

That's the bottom line. Fact of the matter is if we were given DPS to the point we were constantly pulling aggro that would be an improvement if anything. Swash in my guild can easily keep up with me, and literally in every slot my equipment is better than his. if he had my stuff save my melee slots he would destroy me.

[Coldel]

<p>FIX THE G.D. RANGERS!</p>