Zero Fun

[MadHatter1]

<p>That's what Gears and Ganak have become.  Big ole freakin' wail-fest where everyone huddles up around their tank carrying the flag or huddled up on top of the relic spawn point.  Forget about killing anyone unless it's a very unbalanced team you are facing.  Sad to say, bg's were tons more fun when the [Removed for Content] locks and wizzies could one-shot everyone.  At least then people were dying.  What used to take a couple of rounds to finish the daily pvp quests in these 2 zones now takes forever.  Smuggler's is the only one that's even remotely entertaining anymore, and that's just because with so many people, you can always find a couple running around on their own.  Hell, now with the relic resetting in Gears as soon as it's dropped, SOE has taken away any need for there to be a map...might as well stick both teams in a square empty room (aside from the relic), because no one ever strays very far from the relic spawn anymore.  Ganak is equally frustrating if you have 2 decently balanced teams...both just end up in the center of the map beating on each other without much getting accomplished.  Ah well, maybe SOE will get it right one of these days, but I'm certainly not going to hold my breath.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p>Here's an idea.  Tell your team to stop being a bunch of scrubs and assist to melt a tank, healer, whatever.  Or play a straight DPS class and learn how to burn someone down by yourself.</p><p>This random noob whining is getting really old really quick. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Davngr1]

<p>i kill people all the time. </p><p> even pre-fab guild groups, you just need to look for or make your opportunity.</p>

[MadHatter1]

<p><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here's an idea.  Tell your team to stop being a bunch of scrubs and assist to melt a tank, healer, whatever.  Or play a straight DPS class and learn how to burn someone down by yourself.</p><p>This random noob whining is getting really old really quick. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>This is about the response I expected from a lot of people.  Someone posts a real concern they have, and people come in and spout their bs.  I'm sick of hearing the "assist" crap...if you are melee, and everyone is stacked on the relic...try assiting someone...see how well that works when you have a least one tank taunting his f'ing aarse off, or better yet, try it with 2 taunting like mad.  Try burning someone down?  In a situation with 2 balanced teams...who the hell are you kidding.  I did a Gears yesterday and at the end I was second highest dps with almost 700k dps (playing a swashy), and I still only managed to get 4 assisted kills with 1 killing blow....I was tied for most assisted kills with a warlock.  So take a step off your high-horse and quit calling me a noob or telling me to learn to dps burn someone.  Believe it or not, I do know how to play better than the avg. player...not claiming to be leet, but I do know my toon and how to bg.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>i will agree that all the cry babys getting dps classes nerfed with the "he one shots me!" or "auto attack hits too hard!"  blah blah is making this game boring and tipping the scales towards healers and tanks but it's how people want to play.</p><p>   can't really go against the masses, roll a tank.</p>

[MadHatter1]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i will agree that all the cry babys getting dps classes nerfed with the "he one shots me!" or "auto attack hits too hard!"  blah blah is making this game boring and tipping the scales towards healers and tanks but it's how people want to play.</p><p>   can't really go against the masses, <span style="color: #ff6600;">roll a tank.</span></p></blockquote><p>/wrists</p>

[bunnykiller69]

<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: small;">ROFL, </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: small;">Play a wizard in pvp and meet a ranger or a tank and see how fun pvp is, this entire feature is a laughing matter as the fact soe has never knew how to balance or create a good pvp environment why they completely banned it for years.</span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: small;">Now the shoe salesman is trying to sell me a new computer he really doesn’t know what the hell he is doing and battlegrounds exemplifies that </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: small;">The only reason I am doing battle grounds is for the mount, otherwise soe can take this feature and shove it where the sun don’t shine. </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: ">After my last battle ground and getting 1 smug rum, I am not being subjected to your on 1-2 shot pvp style 40 times for nothing blow off you Muppets at soe. </span></p>

[Sydares]

<p><cite>bunnykiller69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-family: ">After my last battle ground and getting 1 smug rum, I am not being subjected to your on 1-2 shot pvp style 40 times for nothing blow off you Muppets at soe. </span></p></blockquote><p>If you're getting 1-2 shotted after GU56, you're doing something very, very wrong.</p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>MadHatter1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>huddled up on top of the relic spawn point</p></blockquote><p>^^This, IMO is bad and has actually made this one less enjoyable rather than correcting the problem it was meant to address. There should be 4 spawn points and it should be random which is used each time it drops.</p>

[Kaita]

<p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>MadHatter1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>huddled up on top of the relic spawn point</p></blockquote><p>^^This, IMO is bad and has actually made this one less enjoyable rather than correcting the problem it was meant to address. There should be 4 spawn points and it should be random which is used each time it drops.</p></blockquote><p>I like this idea</p>

[overmonk2]

<p><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here's an idea.  Tell your team to stop being a bunch of scrubs and assist to melt a tank, healer, whatever.  Or play a straight DPS class and learn how to burn someone down by yourself.</p><p>This random noob whining is getting really old really quick. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>You are an epic tool if you can't see that survivability is out of wack in BGs. I'm tired of the random tool saying everything is fine... that's what is getting really old really quick.</p>

[Morgain]

<p><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>bunnykiller69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-family: ">After my last battle ground and getting 1 smug rum, I am not being subjected to your on 1-2 shot pvp style 40 times for nothing blow off you Muppets at soe. </span></p></blockquote><p>If you're getting 1-2 shotted after GU56, you're doing something very, very wrong.</p></blockquote><p>I have a full set of pvp gear and still get 1 shotted.... EAD noob cake</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Morgain wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>bunnykiller69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-family: ">After my last battle ground and getting 1 smug rum, I am not being subjected to your on 1-2 shot pvp style 40 times for nothing blow off you Muppets at soe. </span></p></blockquote><p>If you're getting 1-2 shotted after GU56, you're doing something very, very wrong.</p></blockquote><p>I have a full set of pvp gear and still get 1 shotted.... EAD noob cake</p></blockquote><p>You are still doing something very wrong, Not even a double fusion crit kills any of my toons in 1 shot really, only thing that comes close is PFT + All stealth attacks + FFU from an assassin.</p>

[Tehom]

<p><cite>Morgain wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>bunnykiller69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-family: ">After my last battle ground and getting 1 smug rum, I am not being subjected to your on 1-2 shot pvp style 40 times for nothing blow off you Muppets at soe. </span></p></blockquote><p>If you're getting 1-2 shotted after GU56, you're doing something very, very wrong.</p></blockquote><p>I have a full set of pvp gear and still get 1 shotted.... EAD noob cake</p></blockquote><p>I can't think of anything that can really one-shot me. I can get spiked out while stunned or something, but not -instantly- killed. What's your pvp crit mit?</p>

[bks6721]

<p><cite>bunnykiller69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">ROFL, </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">Play a wizard in pvp and meet a ranger or a tank and see how fun pvp is, this entire feature is a laughing matter as the fact soe has never knew how to balance or create a good pvp environment why they completely banned it for years.</span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">Now the shoe salesman is trying to sell me a new computer he really doesn’t know what the hell he is doing and battlegrounds exemplifies that </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman;">The only reason I am doing battle grounds is for the mount, otherwise soe can take this feature and shove it where the sun don’t shine. </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: ">After my last battle ground and getting 1 smug rum, I am not being subjected to your on 1-2 shot pvp style 40 times for nothing blow off you Muppets at soe. </span></p></blockquote><p>My BG toon is a wizard.  How fun it is it completely dependent on how you define fun.  If FUN is killing everyone with ease then NO you won't have fun..    If you define FUN as a challenging fight then YES you will have fun.    My wizard has rolled over many, many rangers and tanks.  Is it a guaranteed win?  Nope, I also lose a LOT.</p>

[bks6721]

<p><cite>Morgain wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>bunnykiller69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-family: ">After my last battle ground and getting 1 smug rum, I am not being subjected to your on 1-2 shot pvp style 40 times for nothing blow off you Muppets at soe. </span></p></blockquote><p>If you're getting 1-2 shotted after GU56, you're doing something very, very wrong.</p></blockquote><p>I have a full set of pvp gear and still get 1 shotted.... EAD noob cake</p></blockquote><p>by which class?  and what did you do to prevent it?  Did you make it easy for them?  All legitemite questions considering you are on a BATTLEFIELD.  Run around in the open, by yourself and NOT pay attention to who is around you and you will get killed easy.      My wiz CAN get killed almost instantly but WHEN it happens it is just as much my fault as it is the pvp mechanics.  Proper use of stuns, stifles, interupts, roots WILL save a wiz if used correctly.</p>

[MurFalad]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i will agree that all the cry babys getting dps classes nerfed with the "he one shots me!" or "auto attack hits too hard!"  blah blah is making this game boring and tipping the scales towards healers and tanks but it's how people want to play.</p><p>   can't really go against the masses, roll a tank.</p></blockquote><p>Great advice there, don't stop everyone and roll a Guardian especially since they do fantastic damage (according to ACT that people mitigate my damage between 60-98% so even clothies wear plate these days!), add to that I have a fantastic high damage move like slam which once did 2k damage in a BG (Its mastered) and I think your advice to everyone to roll a tank stinks.But the reason that I have such low damage is because I can take the hits, 2, or sometimes even 3 hits.  Even though my plate is about 66% mitigation and my resists range from 60-75% it doesn't help a bit, not sure what the persona page info infact relates to, as far as I can see its talking about PVE only.Still, it might help if I had PVP gear, unfortunately to get it I need to do BGs, the question is now do I just AFK through them doing nothing (I hate on other MMO's when people do this)?  Or run around achieving the same thing (which means I'm dragging down a team by participating)?It seems like my EQ2 subscription is paying for a BG game that only some classes can participate in, I've yet to actually see another guardian myself.</p>

[Sydares]

<p><cite>Morgain wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you're getting 1-2 shotted after GU56, you're doing something very, very wrong.</p></blockquote><p>I have a full set of pvp gear and still get 1 shotted.... EAD noob cake</p></blockquote><p>You're doing it wrong.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p><cite>overmonk2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here's an idea.  Tell your team to stop being a bunch of scrubs and assist to melt a tank, healer, whatever.  Or play a straight DPS class and learn how to burn someone down by yourself.</p><p>This random noob whining is getting really old really quick. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>You are an epic tool if you can't see that survivability is out of wack in BGs. I'm tired of the random tool saying everything is fine... that's what is getting really old really quick.</p></blockquote><p>I have no problem destroying people when I play my scout.  Neither do any of the other DPS I roll with.  The problem is BGs are full of a ridiculous amount of noobs that are poorly geared and have no idea how to play.  Apparently you're just another one of them, confusing a lack of skill with broken mechanics.</p>

[Dredom]

<p>Biggest concern here is the off balancing. 1 group having 2 healers other group none, etc. Should be a way to balance the classes between the 2 teams and imo would make BG WAY more fun! Hate getting pwned by your own class when you're DPSin like mad just to have the other guy come over and bag you when you're down. Must be nice to feel godlike with unlimited HP.</p>

[Primalooze]

<p>Playing a warlock is frustrating as hell... half the problem is not being able to move when casting and spells...</p><p>I was playing klak last night... i saw an assasin running full pelt at me.... wham bam before i could get 1/3 of the way through my stun he had killed me with his first attack.... he did enough damage to kill me 4 times over... all in less than 2 seconds....  i dont even get a chance to back awayfrom him because his incombat runspeed and that ability to port directly on top of me leaves me with no options...... my teleport detaunt is the only option that ever works....sometimes... if im lucky...</p><p>My only other 2 options is to stick like glue to a tank (assuming we have one)... and hope a ranger isnt about to pick me off from half way across the zone...the only time i have ever been able to compete one on one is when i had 3 healers backing me up and he still took me down eventually lol...</p><p>or just plain hope the assasin doesnt spot me when he's killing my team mates...</p><p>1 on 1 no mage i have ever met in BG can stand against an assasin... and rangers are not far behind... rangers normally 1 shot me from way outside my own casting range....</p><p>SOE need to either give us better armor... like plate maybe <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ... or give us the ability to cast while moving....</p><p>if they dont do something soon... BG will just be a bunch or rangers/assasins and SK's and a few healers..... already seems like all the bards and 80% of the mages have given up completly.</p>

[Grumble69]

<p>I agree with the OP but for different reasons.  The problem with Ganak's & Gears is that the items reset WAAAAAAY too much.  You should only drop it if you die, or you try to take it into an invalid area.  And like another poster said, it needs to respawn randomly in Gears to get folks out of the center.  Right now Gears is FFA (and mostly mindless at that).</p><p>When Smugglers is the BG of choice, you know there's a serious problem at hand.</p>

[MadHatter1]

<p><cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree with the OP but for different reasons.  The problem with Ganak's & Gears is that the items reset WAAAAAAY too much.  You should only drop it if you die, or you try to take it into an invalid area.  And like another poster said, it needs to respawn randomly in Gears to get folks out of the center.  Right now Gears is FFA (and mostly mindless at that).</p><p>When Smugglers is the BG of choice, you know there's a serious problem at hand.</p></blockquote><p>Well, that's certainly one step in the right direction.</p>

[Rick777]

<p>BG's is as close to zero fun as you can get, especially for a healer.  I've forced my way to buying my fabled BG pants, but had to really force myself thru.  The problem is that the way people function isn't the most fun way to play or even the most competitive way to play to win.  I must say though that once in a while I'll get into a BG where the group/raid is organized, not afraid to give orders, and the group functions correctly.</p><p>The main problem is a lack of direction.  You just have a bunch of people out for themselves.  The 6v6 isn't so bad, with my J-cloak I can usually run in and grab the relic, run back to my base and just spam heal myself to give my team a nice lead, then after that I just concentrate on healing whoever has the relic, or healing the group as we go in and try to get it back.  If you have a team that is cohesive and stops and regroups before charging in it's not so bad, unless you are up against one of the uber pre-made groups that just crush everything in their path.  Ganak isn't so bad either if their is some leadership and players don't suck.  Smugglers sucks to the maximum except for that rare time when you get someone who is not afraid to direct the raid, run in win center, 1-2 groups keep center while other groups go cw and ccw to get the outsides, someone keeping everyone up on where the mass of the other team is going, if they are amassing to take center back, etc etc.  But usually you will just get a bunch of players who fan out and run everywhere without any real understanding of where or why they are going there.</p><p>And this is the real crux of what makes BG not fun, it's just players who don't know what to do, either they lack the basic understanding of what to do, and/or a combination of not having any leadership to tell you what to do.  In a raid you are used to being told explicitly what your role is and you do it, but in BG you don't see this that much, and if you do there is still a lot of leeway within those orders and group dynamics always play a part.  So even with this leadership if your tank just runs off out of your healing range, or lets you get killed instead of taunting off of you, then nothing is going to save the group.  Especially lately where it's common to only have one healer in an entire ganak raid, or 1-2 healers in an entire smugglers raid.</p><p>I'll keep forcing my way thru content that is 99% not fun because 1) the gear is better than most stuff I can get in SF mark zones and 2) the PVE game is pretty dead and you either can't find a group, or find a lot of crappy groups who can't get thru a SF zone.  This is the way SOE wants it, this is what makes SOE money, and this is what I'm going to have to do.  But I must say that 1% of the time I do find that gem of a group/raid which is organized, everyone knows their role, and winning feels like a reward for that cohesiveness.</p>

[leliloe]

<p><cite>MadHatter1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree with the OP but for different reasons.  The problem with Ganak's & Gears is that the items reset WAAAAAAY too much.  You should only drop it if you die, or you try to take it into an invalid area.  And like another poster said, it needs to respawn randomly in Gears to get folks out of the center.  Right now Gears is FFA (and mostly mindless at that).</p><p>When Smugglers is the BG of choice, you know there's a serious problem at hand.</p></blockquote><p>Well, that's certainly one step in the right direction.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, already said that in another post, but this is the only great thing about relic change. People don't run it anymore, so we have more BG in other zones that still give some fun and strat work.</p>

[Shareana]

<p>Insults are not needed to get your idea across...  thank you!</p>

[MaCloud1032]

Step one for pvp/bg set up a next pvp target and a previous pvp target button. Step 2 roll up sqishy targets first. If you pointy thing isn't hurting the tank start killing its support. If you see a bard or a chanter kill them first. If you get taunted refer to step one. Step 3 if you won't do step 1 or 2 turn off any ae attacks around tanks. Especialy on warriors. You will proc a free taunt. Don't be a nub! Step 4 if none of the other steps will be followed complain complain complain untill in pvp/bg all scouts are dirges tanks are guards healers are wardens and mages are wizzys. If none of these work for you. Don't go for pvp/bg. Stick to the scrpted mobs in your instances.

[Putyo]

<p>BG's are no longer kill or be killed fast paced action anymore, its a snooze fest (espacially gears) just standing there hitting a healer for 2% of their life.</p><p><strong>There is way to much pvp crit mit, adornments are stacking and causing fights to take forever, GG once again going overboard on a fix. Please start playing EQ2</strong></p>

[Avirodar]

<p>Tanks bring a lot into a BG match, it is why so many people are playing them these days. Crusaders are at the height of BG popularity, and it is not just co-incidence.For a player of average gear, average skill, ADHD, and no desire to attempt working with a team, crusaders are PERFECT! They have high avoidance, damage reductions/preventions, self heals, and the ability to put out some DPS while doing everything previously stated. The perfect all-in-one package for the flavor of the month crew.</p>

[overmonk2]

<p><cite>Putyo@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>BG's are no longer kill or be killed fast paced action anymore, its a snooze fest (espacially gears) just standing there hitting a healer for 2% of their life.</p></blockquote><p>Ding ding ding... someone gets it. That is exaclty what happens when you get two balanced groups of skilled players going at it. BORING! Was in a gears last night (both teams with 2 GOOD healers) and put out just under 2 mil in dmg and was tied for the most assisted kills of 4... oh the fun. Only the relic holder would drop health... pretty much everyone else was green for the whole zone.</p>

[Hallowell]

<p><cite>Dredom wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Biggest concern here is the off balancing. 1 group having 2 healers other group none, etc. Should be a way to balance the classes between the 2 teams and imo would make BG WAY more fun! Hate getting pwned by your own class when you're DPSin like mad just to have the other guy come over and bag you when you're down. Must be nice to feel godlike with unlimited HP.</p></blockquote><p>That would be a solution, if it was not for the pre-made groups. My suggestion is, team up with some of your guildies, or find some randoms to group up with before entering BGs. That way you have much bigger chance of getting the "perfect" setup <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Btw - they really should make it so that if a healer picks up the gear, he cannot heal himself.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Shareana wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Insults are not needed to get your idea across...  thank you!</p></blockquote><p>Nope,  but they add such wonderful punctuation! =)</p>

[Harbringer Doom]

<p><cite>Hallowell@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Btw - they really should make it so that if a healer picks up the gear, he cannot heal himself.</p></blockquote><p>What the...</p><p>Please explain the logic of this course of action?</p>

[Hallowell]

<p><cite>Horknut@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Hallowell@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Btw - they really should make it so that if a healer picks up the gear, he cannot heal himself.</p></blockquote><p>What the...</p><p>Please explain the logic of this course of action?</p></blockquote><p>Ever tried playing against a grp setup by 3 healers,  - 1 fury, 1 warden and 1 pally, (and 3 randoms) and the pally picks up the gear? He's impossible to get down, and can continue healing himself even when the gear takes his health. I dont care if he can heal others - should not be able to outheal the damage that the gear does to you.</p>

[LardLord]

<p>I've played about 5 BGs since the patch, and that was enough to make me not want to play them since.  It's just too hard for most people to kill anyone. </p><p>I know some players who still get kills easily, so I'm hoping it's mostly a player issue that will correct itself.  I'll probably try them again in a few weeks.</p>

[bks6721]

<p><cite>overmonk2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Putyo@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>BG's are no longer kill or be killed fast paced action anymore, its a snooze fest (espacially gears) just standing there hitting a healer for 2% of their life.</p></blockquote><p>Ding ding ding... someone gets it. That is exaclty what happens when you get two balanced groups of skilled players going at it. BORING! Was in a gears last night (both teams with 2 GOOD healers) and put out just under 2 mil in dmg and was tied for the most assisted kills of 4... oh the fun. Only the relic holder would drop health... pretty much everyone else was green for the whole zone.</p></blockquote><p>A fair, even skilled fight never is fun is it?  It's only fun if you can wipe the other team, right?</p><p>It sounds like you encountered a TRUE CHALLENGE and you didnt' like it.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>Pvp dmg could use a boost, my Inq is sitting at ~30% dmg reduction w/ ~80% pvp crit mit and ~25k hp self-buffed.</p><p>Before the last change 6 people would generally kill me unless they were terrible, now I can stand up to 8-10 people and kill them all once they blow their loads.</p><p>Increase dmg across the board or cap pvp crit mit at ~70%</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>Why not give everyone a CA/spell that just lowers their targets pvp crit mit, give it a long cooldown and make it stackable</p>

[Grumble69]

<p>Nah, but putting into the brig's dispatch would work.</p>

[overmonk2]

<p><cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>overmonk2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Putyo@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>BG's are no longer kill or be killed fast paced action anymore, its a snooze fest (espacially gears) just standing there hitting a healer for 2% of their life.</p></blockquote><p>Ding ding ding... someone gets it. That is exaclty what happens when you get two balanced groups of skilled players going at it. BORING! Was in a gears last night (both teams with 2 GOOD healers) and put out just under 2 mil in dmg and was tied for the most assisted kills of 4... oh the fun. Only the relic holder would drop health... pretty much everyone else was green for the whole zone.</p></blockquote><p>A fair, even skilled fight never is fun is it?  It's only fun if you can wipe the other team, right?</p><p>It sounds like you encountered a TRUE CHALLENGE and you didnt' like it.</p></blockquote><p>How is a stalemate fun? I play BGs to kill people... /boggle. </p><p>I guess you like the TRUE CHALLENGE of who picks up the relic first wins! Oh the FUN!</p>

[Crismorn]

<p><cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Nah, but putting into the brig's dispatch would work.</p></blockquote><p>I see it more as an all or no one type of ability</p>

[Putyo]

<p>Please reduce cap on crit mit and toughness <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Uinael_Guk]

<p>I recently went from 80 to 90 BG on my Brig, and it's really a world of a difference.  lvl 80 BGs were so much fun with tons of deaths, tons of killing, matches wild and fun.  Few people actually pay for lvl 80 fabled BG gear, so you rarely encountered people with toughness more than like 10%, and even with almost full SF legendary gear, I was able to top damage quite a bit.</p><p>Now, I really regret lowering my slider and getting the last 10% to hit 90 because BG's, like the thread title says, is zero fun.</p><p>First off, the transition is horrible.   Getting thrown into a match vs some pink server guild group with full BG gear has the potential to scare someone away from BG for life.  Not only are you getting one shotted by thousands of procs in a matter of 2 seconds, but with no pvp potency, weak gear, and if you use MC gear, weak stats, you're NOT going to kill a single person.</p><p>To top it off, every day it gets worse and worse with those 'pros' usually getting 3x the tokens as newbies.   I've probably done 10-15 matches since hitting 90 and I think i've won 2-3, while in T8 I was probably at a solid 50%, if not higher.   How am I supposed to gear up when my competition is gearing up 3x as quick?  Especially when BG's seems to rely on gear FAR more than skill.</p><p>Secondly, how and why are Wardens and Wizards nearly impossible to kill now?  What is up with that?  I was in a match today with 10 people pounding on a Warden for a solid 30 seconds with his health not dropping below 95%.  I'm not even sure how much longer he lived because one of his friends came over and one shotted me of course.</p><p><strong>Anyway, how to make BGs fun again? </strong></p><p>People need to die quicker, but the 'right' people.   Doing a blanket increase of damage would make those w/o gear even more frustrated.     Nerfing toughness would upset those who spent many, many hours farming gear so they can survive longer, only to die quicker now.   This is a very tough balance that needs a lot of thought put into it.</p><p>Matches have to be better.  First off, people need to be ranked, like Call of Duty.   Have some formula going on with the more you kill, the more you heal, the longer you hold relic, more flags you capture, more towers you capture, etc, you gain experience towards your rank.   With these ranks, matchups can be made a little easier.</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">Solo players get thrown into sub-tiers and only go against those in their tier (1-9, 10-19, etc)</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">Pre-made groups possibly take the average ranking of the group and match them as close as possible as other pre-made groups.  It will be extremely slow to 'tier' these, so occasionally you'll get a pre-made group with avg ranking of 5 going against 55, but that's assuming that was the only two groups looking to BG at the time.</p><p>In doing this, possibly make it so you can 'unlock' certain items as you rank up.  Of course this creates a huge problem to those who already have the items, but it could make leveling up in BG's pretty fun and exciting.</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">An example would be (using the Brigand)</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">Rank 5 - Access to Brutallic Forearms and SabatonsRank 10 - Access to Brutallic Gloves and a Jewerly piece or twoetcetcRank 40 - Access to Challengers Forearms and SabatonsRank 50 - etc</p><p>I think the ranking system would help solve quite a bit actually because of what you can do with them.    Then you can have stuff like in CoD, the 'prestige' where you can go back to Rank 1, get some type of badge but can no longer wear your great pvp gear.  However, they can be rewarded in other ways, for example:</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">Prestige 1-5 = Every win you earn a mark in addition to BG tokensPrestige 6-10 = Every win you earn 2 marks or a mark and a seal in addition to BG tokens</p><p>Because really if you're at prestige 6, you likely have full BG gear and want more than just more tokens.</p><p>I'm sure nothing I said here will be taken into consideration by the devs, but it would be really cool to have a deeper BG system like that imo. Would help with balance and fun</p><p>edited: Added more stuff</p><p><strong>Tokens </strong></p><p>Another thing, they really need to increase the amount of tokens and/or give tokens for completing the daily quests.  It wouldn't also hurt to have a varied reward depending on your game score (which would also be tied to your experience gained towards rank).   Maybe instead of wins-3, losses-1, the more you do, the more you win.   I'd like to see something like..</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">GearsTotal Tokens = 32 available</p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">1st place = 6 tokens2nd place = 5 tokens3rd place = 4 tokens4th-6th place = 3 tokens7th-8th place = 2 tokens9th-12th place = 1 token</p><p>Like mentioned above, you gain score by holding relic, killing relic holder, doing damage, getting killing blows, healing, curing?, etc.  This way if you join, do nothing but win, you still only win 1 token, but if you at least bust your butt for the losing team, you have a chance to earn more than 1 token.</p><p>In this system, the rich do get richer, but they also gain the most score, which gives them the most experience and moves them into the next 'tier' quicker and they face tougher competition.</p>

[bks6721]

<p><cite>overmonk2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>overmonk2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Putyo@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>BG's are no longer kill or be killed fast paced action anymore, its a snooze fest (espacially gears) just standing there hitting a healer for 2% of their life.</p></blockquote><p>Ding ding ding... someone gets it. That is exaclty what happens when you get two balanced groups of skilled players going at it. BORING! Was in a gears last night (both teams with 2 GOOD healers) and put out just under 2 mil in dmg and was tied for the most assisted kills of 4... oh the fun. Only the relic holder would drop health... pretty much everyone else was green for the whole zone.</p></blockquote><p>A fair, even skilled fight never is fun is it?  It's only fun if you can wipe the other team, right?</p><p>It sounds like you encountered a TRUE CHALLENGE and you didnt' like it.</p></blockquote><p>How is a stalemate fun? I play BGs to kill people... /boggle. </p><p>I guess you like the TRUE CHALLENGE of who picks up the relic first wins! Oh the FUN!</p></blockquote><p>yep, I much prefer that over hitting revive every 15 seconds.</p><p>FUN is letting the other side hold the relic until they have 690 points then taking it from them and holding it until we win.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p><cite>Primalooze wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Playing a warlock is frustrating as hell... half the problem is not being able to move when casting and spells...</p><p>I was playing klak last night... i saw an assasin running full pelt at me.... wham bam before i could get 1/3 of the way through my stun he had killed me with his first attack.... he did enough damage to kill me 4 times over... all in less than 2 seconds....  i dont even get a chance to back awayfrom him because his incombat runspeed and that ability to port directly on top of me leaves me with no options...... my teleport detaunt is the only option that ever works....sometimes... if im lucky...</p></blockquote><p>I don't know what you're doing wrong but that sorcerer mana shield (AA ability, I think?) is the most OP thing I have ever seen in a BG (after the unstoppable 100% runspeed Ganak flag runners of course).  Multiple times I have watched random wizards and warlocks tank 6 or 8 people for 30 seconds or more before they die or simply run away.</p><p><em>A fair, even skilled fight never is fun is it?  It's only fun if you can wipe the other team, right?</em></p><p><em>It sounds like you encountered a TRUE CHALLENGE and you didnt' like it.</em></p><p>You hit the nail on the head.</p><p>What's truly hilarious here is how in the very same thread you have a few people complaining that they die in 1-2 hits and you have a few more people complaining that everyone is impossible to kill.  It obviously can't be happening both ways, so my suggestion is ya'll get your stories straight before you open up with big rants about broken mechanics.</p>

[MadHatter1]

<p><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What's truly hilarious here is how in the very same thread you have a few people complaining that they die in 1-2 hits and you have a few more people complaining that everyone is impossible to kill.  It obviously can't be happening both ways, so my suggestion is ya'll get your stories straight before you open up with big rants about broken mechanics.</p></blockquote><p>I have to jump in with Overmonk here...what a [Removed for Content].  Bg's tend to be different experiences dependant upon who you are and the class you play along with the group you end up getting stuck in.  It's a shame that your horizons aren't broad enough to be able to see things from other peoples points...easy enough for you to be derisive though.  So I'll give you an A+ for *ssholery.</p><p>P.S.  And yes Shareana, this post was a little insulting, but in my defense, some people just beg to be insulted...be kind of un-American not to oblige them.</p>

[Tehom]

<p>I feel they need to greatly expand upon the use of Mutilation procs on pvp gear. Allowing focused fire to prevent someone from being healed at a fast rate until they're fully cured would largely solve most of the survivability problems and endless fights without creating one-shot situations. The huge survivability issues we see right now are really more of a factor of the extreme amounts of self-healing players are capable of both from individual class abilities and procs at the moment, and mutilation procs are too scarce in itemization to be an effective counter currently.</p>

[overmonk2]

<p>LOL I love it... next time the BGs are down send me a tell. I'll find some wet paint that you guys can sit and watch dry. You are very easy to entertain. Haha</p>

[StaticLex]

<p><cite>MadHatter1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Bg's tend to be different experiences dependant upon who you are and the class you play along with the group you end up getting stuck in.</p></blockquote><p>Well by god get captain obvious here a cookie!</p>

[Yimway]

<p>In my experience, the issue is the lack of disparity in squishyness between tanks and non-tank classes.</p><p>It seems nearly any class with competent healing around it is difficult to kill.</p>

[Tehom]

<p>That's probably because healing is strong enough where unless someone is killed within a few seconds you can usually keep them up indefinitely. Under those circumstances it's often irrelevant whether it'd take you 5 seconds to kill someone or 30 - they won't die either way with a strong healer behind them.</p>

[Yimway]

<p>Yeah, something just doesn't feel scaled right.</p><p>With the absence of healers, the amount of damage different classes take seems reasonable (a few rare exceptions).  Which leads me to think the amounts on pvp heals are potentially too high in comparison to the dps.</p><p>I've not done detailed hps to dps comparisons, but it certainly feels like a single healer can hps > 2-3 dps classes can dps.</p><p>Yeah, someone will snipe in about control effects on healers and blah blah, but with the amount of heals, tanks target locking, etc, etc. The game becomes over 'turtled' based upon the hps/dps break point.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>Healing takes a pretty big pvp hit depending on which type.</p><p>I would be fine with a heal nerf as long as it was EVERYONE.</p><p>Lifetaps, Heal procs, Ward procs, etc..</p><p>If you nerf priest heal abilities then its only fair that you nerf every other classes healing abilities</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you nerf priest heal abilities then its only fair that you nerf every other classes healing abilities</p></blockquote><p>I agree, but I'm not sure nerfing healing is really the answer.</p><p>The whole system is out of whack.  I still feel there is an initial lack of disparity in tank vs squishy survivability.</p><p>Tanks are generally too easy to kill in comparison to squishy classes.  Nerfing heals doesn't address this gap, not saying heals isn't part of the problem, but remove the heals and there are still other issues.</p><p>Tanks simply don't have the mitigation options that translate to pvp battle as effective as they should.  All classes get roughly the same spell mitigation abilities.  And I think that in itself sets up a lack of disparity between tank vs squishy survivability.</p><p>Lets say if you took the current model, and you could hit non-tanks with melee and spells with 30% more effectiveness.  This would begin to setup a battlefield that would be more compelling.  Tanks should be very tanky, squishies should well squish.  EQ2 PVP/BG's hasn't really succeeded in establishing this in my opinion.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>I'm sitting at ~25k health and if you as a fighter "not you directly but you as in anyone" cannot get at least that then you should figure out how to do it.</p><p>Fighters with high health/avoidance take me forever to kill and its generally not worth my time</p>

[Tehom]

<p>I'm not sure I can really agree with you about the difference between tanks and squishies. When it comes to magic mitigation, yeah, I can see that, and maybe non-tanks should have had their mitigation/resist cap at a lower value: say 60% instead of 75% to give tanks a decisive edge. But if you compare tanks (and admittedly, some priests) to most scouts or mages, they do have a very pronounced survivability advantage (in the case of say, well-geared crusaders, a pretty immense one), although sorcerers tend to muddle that a bit. I think it's more a case of sorcerers being a strange exception rather than an overall flaw with tanks as a whole.</p><p>Personally I just think more/stacking mutilation-type procs is the answer rather than mechanical changes, since it creates a process where healing quickly becomes weaker in large fights. It wouldn't produce more one-shots like you'd see in overall survivability nerfs or damage increases, but would solve these immense endurance/turtle matches, in my opinion.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm not sure I can really agree with you about the difference between tanks and squishies. When it comes to magic mitigation, yeah, I can see that, and maybe non-tanks should have had their mitigation/resist cap at a lower value: say 60% instead of 75% to give tanks a decisive edge. But if you compare tanks (and admittedly, some priests) to most scouts or mages, they do have a very pronounced survivability advantage (in the case of say, well-geared crusaders, a pretty immense one), although sorcerers tend to muddle that a bit. I think it's more a case of sorcerers being a strange exception rather than an overall flaw with tanks as a whole.</p></blockquote><p>Remove fighter self heals for a minute and see how the survivability break down comes accross.  Sure, there are balancing issues around tank self heals, but I'm talking about take a tank in pvp and treat it as a training dummy.  You shouldn't be able to land damage on it at remotely the same rate you can land damage on a squishy.</p><p>I contend, there isn't enough disparity between the rate tanks innately take damage compaired to other classes.  So if you actually fix the HPS and heal issues and balance tanks out, you'll end up at a place where tanks aren't tanky, ie they'd all die as easy as a guard.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>I'm not sure about other classes Atan, but when i attack a fighter i do considerably less dmg then I would vs any scout or non-sorc mage.</p><p>The dmg reduction aa in shadow line on top of higher mitigation makes me hit fighters for alot less dmg once you add in the superior avoidance and its much lower then any other class.</p><p>This is my healer though so my hitrates and dmg per hit is very bad vs other classes so you vs a scout may not notice this, but I do when I fight against pretty much every fighter</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm not sure about other classes Atan, but when i attack a fighter i do considerably less dmg then I would vs any scout or non-sorc mage.</p><p>The dmg reduction aa in shadow line on top of higher mitigation makes me hit fighters for alot less dmg once you add in the superior avoidance and its much lower then any other class.</p><p>This is my healer though so my hitrates and dmg per hit is very bad vs other classes so you vs a scout may not notice this, but I do when I fight against pretty much every fighter</p></blockquote><p>Check using your spells vs your hits.  On my inq, I cast the reactive damage stuff that hits off divine and watch them fall down at roughly the same speed.</p><p>Yes, tanks have an advantage off purely melee based hits, but even scouts are throwing out a significant amount of pvp damage from proc's that are not melee mitigated.</p><p>Since a tank gains no additional mitigation for non-melee hits in eq2 pvp, I contend they aren't really functional 'tanks' as a result.</p><p>EQ2 developers have scaled tank self heals on select classes. Due to their ability to heal themselves drastically, these select tank classes are  functional for pvp tanking.  If you remove the self healing and just look directly at incoming damage on a single target from a balanced group, the disparity between a tank and a squishy is not significant enough to have functional tanks (once self heals are removed).</p><p>I'm saying, at its core, eq2 pvp isn't provisioned / designed effectively for the class roles.  This isn't surprising when you consider it is a PVE game designed around primarily large amounts of physical incoming damge.  So Tanks designed primarily around physical mitigation allows them to be 'tanky' in pve, but in pvp leaving them very squishy without siginficant amounts of self healing.  This is why we see specific tanks dominant in pvp and others almost incapable of performing their role.</p><p>All in all, I have 0 confidence in SoE being able to deliver a consistent, balanced, and sensible pvp game, due to what I would call fundamental mechanics design gaps regarding pvp combat.</p>

[Wytie]

<p><cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I feel they need to greatly expand upon the use of Mutilation procs on pvp gear. Allowing focused fire to prevent someone from being healed at a fast rate until they're fully cured would largely solve most of the survivability problems and endless fights without creating one-shot situations. The huge survivability issues we see right now are really more of a factor of the extreme amounts of self-healing players are capable of both from individual class abilities and procs at the moment, and mutilation procs are too scarce in itemization to be an effective counter currently.</p></blockquote><p>I agree with this.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I feel they need to greatly expand upon the use of Mutilation procs on pvp gear. Allowing focused fire to prevent someone from being healed at a fast rate until they're fully cured would largely solve most of the survivability problems and endless fights without creating one-shot situations. The huge survivability issues we see right now are really more of a factor of the extreme amounts of self-healing players are capable of both from individual class abilities and procs at the moment, and mutilation procs are too scarce in itemization to be an effective counter currently.</p></blockquote><p>I agree with this.</p></blockquote><p>Its treating cancer with bandaids.</p>

[Davian]

<p>Wow, so many things to say here, don't really know where to start.  There are several posts I want to quote and make a response too, but I don't feel like going back and finding them all.  I'll start off talking about wizards in pvp, since I play a wizard and saw several posts that mentioned them.  First, manashield isn't as overpowered as many people seem to think.  Personally I only use on the rare occasion.  What people don't understand is that if you use manashield and you keep on fighting, all that happens is your power gets completely drained in a few seconds, thus making you unable to cast anything and dead a few seconds later.  If I hit manashield I use it as a tool to try and run away cause I know if I stay and fight I'll be out of power and die, but it gives me a chance to run away and live to fight again.  Now I understand that sorc's have a lot of survivability, but that isn't really a result of manashield, but rather a result of our aa's that give us replenishing wards, along with a lot of mitigation.  Just wanted to clarify on the "usefullness" of manashield and how it's not over powered like many think.</p><p>Also on the subject of wizards, theres a post earlier where someone claimed that no mage could stand up to an assassin or ranger right now.  I'll tell you from my experience, assassins and rangers go down just as easily as any other class.  If i get them targetted I will just root, or stun them, then burn them down.  The only exception is some of the "elite" rangers and assassins out there.  Sure some of them can own me more often then not, but I can still get some kills on them one on one.</p><p>In regards to the post where someone was upset that at lvl 90, when hes wearing legendary/mastercrafted gear and getting owned in BG.  All I gotta say is [Removed for Content] did you expect?  Level 90 is where everyones mains are.  There are a bunch of raiding toons fully fabled out, along with all the full time BGers full of PVP gear.  In essence it's the Big Leagues of BG where all the other levels are just the minor leagues.  Did you really expect to be able to hold your own on a newly lvl 90 toon against a bunch of grizzled veterans?  That's like a guy just out of high school expecting to play for the Yankees and have a shot at the triple crown.</p><p>On the more recent subject in this thread talking about tanks not being survivable and thus not "tanky".  I have to say I disagree with this.  With the exception of Guardians, I find that every other tank class out there is hard to kill and takes quite a bit more effort on my part to get them down.  SOE needs to do something about the Guardian class in PVP, but the other tanks I will try to avoid if possible cause I know it will take time to burn them down, especially since I will have to kill them multiple times cause of their death saves, that by the time I kill them, their friends have come to kill me.  No I think tanks are very useful in BG and if anything might need a slight nerf.</p><p>Lastly, I think this has gotten off topic.  In regards to the OP, I do agree somewhat that BG is not as fun with all the survivability out there.  There have been some fights where I deal out over 1 mil dmg, die 0 times and get only 3 kills.  I do not want to go back to the days where if I looked at someone they would die, but I do want the overall survivability to go down some.  Whether its from increasing dmg across the board, nerfing heals, or reducing pvp crit mit, something needs to change to make BG more fun.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p>Nobody complains when a group doesn't stick together and the healer gets ganked over and over and over.  Have a group stay together and work as a team though and here come the calls for healer nerfage.</p><p>Go ahead and do it.  I dare you.  I want to see the reaction from the healer community.</p>

[Putyo]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I feel they need to greatly expand upon the use of Mutilation procs on pvp gear. Allowing focused fire to prevent someone from being healed at a fast rate until they're fully cured would largely solve most of the survivability problems and endless fights without creating one-shot situations. The huge survivability issues we see right now are really more of a factor of the extreme amounts of self-healing players are capable of both from individual class abilities and procs at the moment, and mutilation procs are too scarce in itemization to be an effective counter currently.</p></blockquote><p>I agree with this.</p></blockquote><p>Its treating cancer with bandaids.</p></blockquote><p>Please god dont do this <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p>lets find a solution that doesnt just fix this until next expac/GU</p>

[Sydares]

<p>There were a few problems with excess damage in GU55 - no doubt about that one. GU56 pushed survivability way over the edge, though. Definitely way too much turtling now.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Nobody complains when a group doesn't stick together and the healer gets ganked over and over and over.  Have a group stay together and work as a team though and here come the calls for healer nerfage.</p><p>Go ahead and do it.  I dare you.  I want to see the reaction from the healer community.</p></blockquote><p>The problem is its not just priests that are healing and if heals were lowered it would be across the board to everything</p><p>ward/heal procs, poisons, aa abilities and of course healing spells and if it was done like that then as a healer I would be</p><p>fine with that because survivabilty seems way too  high right now.</p>

[Vinyard]

<p>First off, I am one of Davionx's victims....he hits hard for an Inq <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I agree with the "Zero Fun" factor. I was on a losing streak last night, and it was just frustrating. The matchmaking system is absolutely horrible. How is it fair in gears, when a team of 3 rangers, a swashbuckler, a healer, and a mage, goes up against 2 tanks, a healer, and dps? And they are all from diff. servers?</p><p>The tanks easily chain taunt us and are basically healing themselves, while the healer keeps the others alive, while my team is just getting slaughtered.</p><p>Also, when I finally DID get a win, I just happened to be reviving when the match ended, and I didn't get credit for it.</p>

[Rick777]

<p>You guys who are proposing to nerf healers are completely insane.  Nerfing crusaders healing is one thing, and if that's what's being talked about then I agree, but I've seen a couple of comments directly discussing nerfing healers themselves.  It's a major drag to play as a healer, if you get targeted it's all done.  Sure I can keep myself  alive for a bit, but once my power runs out or I get targeted by more than one player it's all over.  I only have a couple of fabled BG pieces and the rest are the MC stuff, but I just can't see myself getting that much more powerful.</p><p>As it is it's hard to find a healer in BG's, especially in Smugglers where it's common to see 1-2 healers for an entire raid force.  I'm not complaining about healing, I think I'm improving day by day in my PVP healing skills and am understanding how different the focus is than on PVE healing.  But after running a ton of BG's with the theme being 6,12 or 24 SK's I hardly think healers should have their heals nerfed.</p>

[Dorsan]

<p><cite>Rick777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You guys who are proposing to nerf healers are completely insane.  Nerfing crusaders healing is one thing, and if that's what's being talked about then I agree, but I've seen a couple of comments directly discussing nerfing healers themselves.  It's a major drag to play as a healer, if you get targeted it's all done.  Sure I can keep myself  alive for a bit, but once my power runs out or I get targeted by more than one player it's all over.  I only have a couple of fabled BG pieces and the rest are the MC stuff, but I just can't see myself getting that much more powerful.</p><p>As it is it's hard to find a healer in BG's, especially in Smugglers where it's common to see 1-2 healers for an entire raid force.  I'm not complaining about healing, I think I'm improving day by day in my PVP healing skills and am understanding how different the focus is than on PVE healing.  But after running a ton of BG's with the theme being 6,12 or 24 SK's I hardly think healers should have their heals nerfed.</p></blockquote><p>I don't get it why people in mastercrafting gear want to comment on game balance. You can't form a correct opinion until you are geared up because you are at a huge disadvantage from the gear so you will always see your class as inferior. The fact is, fully fabled healers are impossible to kill without a group beating on them in a well coordinated manner.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Rick777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You guys who are proposing to nerf healers are completely insane.  Nerfing crusaders healing is one thing, and if that's what's being talked about then I agree, but I've seen a couple of comments directly discussing nerfing healers themselves.  It's a major drag to play as a healer, if you get targeted it's all done.  Sure I can keep myself  alive for a bit, but once my power runs out or I get targeted by more than one player it's all over.  I only have a couple of fabled BG pieces and the rest are the MC stuff, but I just can't see myself getting that much more powerful.</p></blockquote><p>No, nerfing healers is not really an answer, as it just leaves us with a different issue.</p><p>The problem is, if you do as you suggest and nerf tank heals, as I said, if you look at a tank survivability vs a dps survivability after you remove the heals, the tanks are just 5-8k more hp to tear thru.  All classes have too much effective mitigation and avoidance available to them that with the power of heals now, every fight comes down to running a healer out of power. </p><p>Nerfing heals will only make my point about tank squishiness vs non-tanks be far more apparent.</p><p>The entire house of cards needs re-working if they want a truely sustainable pvp system in this game.</p>

[Rick777]

<p><cite>Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rick777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You guys who are proposing to nerf healers are completely insane.  Nerfing crusaders healing is one thing, and if that's what's being talked about then I agree, but I've seen a couple of comments directly discussing nerfing healers themselves.  It's a major drag to play as a healer, if you get targeted it's all done.  Sure I can keep myself  alive for a bit, but once my power runs out or I get targeted by more than one player it's all over.  I only have a couple of fabled BG pieces and the rest are the MC stuff, but I just can't see myself getting that much more powerful.</p><p>As it is it's hard to find a healer in BG's, especially in Smugglers where it's common to see 1-2 healers for an entire raid force.  I'm not complaining about healing, I think I'm improving day by day in my PVP healing skills and am understanding how different the focus is than on PVE healing.  But after running a ton of BG's with the theme being 6,12 or 24 SK's I hardly think healers should have their heals nerfed.</p></blockquote><p>I don't get it why people in mastercrafting gear want to comment on game balance. You can't form a correct opinion until you are geared up because you are at a huge disadvantage from the gear so you will always see your class as inferior. The fact is, fully fabled healers are impossible to kill without a group beating on them in a well coordinated manner.</p></blockquote><p>I understand where you are coming from, but for someone to get every slot in their inventory fabled out we are talking like 1000+ BG matches, I don't have the exact token number for each slot available so that's an extremely rough number.  I think you will agree that the vast majority of BG players are not fully fabled.  You are talking about nerfing the vast majority of players for the ills of the very few fully fabled. </p><p>If a healer is truly indestructible AND never runs out of power when he is fully BG fabled, then I whole heartedly agree that's not right and something needs to be done about it.  But there needs to be another solution than just nerfing "all" heals, and there certainly is a reason why you don't see very many healers in BG's in general.  I've played a couple hundred BG's now and I've never ever seen a healer who could survive for long, I've seen healers who made a good try but eventually ran out of power or were overwhelmed by damage but didn't see anything I would consider close to imbalancing, of course I'll defer to those who have played more matches and have better gear than me, I'm just putting out my experiences to help with balancing.</p><p>One thing I have noticed is crusaders (not all of them, but what I'm assuming to be the better geared ones) who are truly indestructible.  I've seen literally half a raid force beat on a single crusader for 10 minutes straight and they are still alive.  I'm not one to call for nerfs on anyone as I feel balancing should be more than just nerfing one class, but there is more important balancing needed than nerfing a healers heals.</p>

[Sydares]

<p>I don't understand why they don't change Mutilation to essentially what it needs to be - healing the target <strong>receives</strong> is reduced, not the heal potential of the target. Also, applications need to refresh the duration of previous mutilates - make it truly stack.</p><p>Example: 1000 point heal coming in to target.</p><p><em></em></p><p><em>0 Stacks: Target receives 1000 point heal.</em></p><p><em>1 Stack: Target receives 850 point heal.</em></p><p><em>2 Stack: Target receives 700 point heal.</em></p><p><em>At this point, stack 1 is about to run out.</em></p><p><em>Target is hit with another mutilate. Mutilate 1 and 2 are refreshed to full duration, and Mutilate 3 is applied.</em></p><p>Etc, etc.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>Hiding the flag in ganak is zero fun. Despite using terrain as a legitimate advantage, there comes a point where you have to ask just why they decided to make the terrain decidedly more usefull in a capture the flag match than it is in almost any other situation in the game.</p><p>The relic should do damage multiplied by how many healers you have in group. The reason for that is if theres no healers in the group, it does (say half the amount for ex) and it makes it a bit less determined by who kills more players, and if there are several healers, they're going to have to either heal their butts off like they haven't had to before, OR someone's going to have to pick the relic up again. If theres more than 2 healers without such a variable as multiplied relic damage, it will almost always end up being decided by who has the most run speed and lowest ping at the start of the match.) There is zero fun in a game where it's a zerg fest of heals and no ones dropping.</p><p>As for smugglers, I rather enjoy it as is and don't have any gripes about it.</p><p>These however are my 2 cents worth, and I honestly don't care what flames it attracts. Battlegrounds is unfun when you can't kill the objective holder, and it's unfun when you can't get the stupid flag out from it's hiding spot because of severe turtles. I'm only after the very few items that are useful, and after that you can flush this "minigame" down the qq toilet called nagafen. As it stands, if you are on a PVE server and are not stacked in terms of gear, BG is rather lame and painful at best since you really wont stand a chance until you get enough tokens for the merchant gear which is going to be mostly losses. Even the toughness on the MC gear is skittles against the players at level 90; they'll rip you a new one with or without that toughness.</p><p>As for those that will say "get better gear" or "learn to play", why don't you strip off that sparkly raid gear and don some gear that is a bit less OP and then come out on BG and talk smack. Those that flame that statement KNOW that the raid gear (especially the higher tiers of it) is OP relative to all other available options including dedicated PVP gear and want to keep hiding behind it and are afraid of a fair and real challenge. Go ahead and keep talking smack on the internet forums/channels and getting your satisfaction from killing the non-raiders with trivial difficulty due to gear, no ones judging.</p>

[Rick777]

<p>I played Gears all day today and I think I know why some of you are crying about healers.  I have a templar and I can hunker down with the gear for a bit and heal the crap out of myself, but that only works for a bit until I run out of power.</p><p>But I saw what is definitely what I would consider seriously unbalanced when I saw a warden do it.  Since their myth procs endless power what happened was they were able to hunker down the ENTIRE match and never die.  I observed this with 2 different wardens today, it was very interesting.  I don't have the best of gear, but I've got a full suit of the highest level MC PVP armor, and I have 3 pieces of fabled challenger armor plus I have the +125 in combat power regen earring and I can stand most fabled groups beating on me UNTIL I run out of power.  This makes complete sense to me as it's far from forever, certainly not as long as a crusader IMO.</p><p>Just some observations if any devs have the day off from free realms and had permission to spend a couple of minutes on Everquest 2.</p>

[Rick777]

<p>Another observation, what's with the exploit where someone can jump up into your base?  Had this happen a few times.</p>

[Sydares]

<p>That would be 'shadowstep.' And it's not an exploit,<em> it's a feature!</em></p>

[Rick777]

<p><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That would be 'shadowstep.' And it's not an exploit,<em> it's a feature!</em></p></blockquote><p>Ahh interesting, pretty neat.  They were doing it a lot, continuously so I'm assuming it has a very fast refresh.</p>

[Putyo]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As for those that will say "get better gear" or "learn to play", why don't you strip off that sparkly raid gear and don some gear that is a bit less OP and then come out on BG and talk smack. Those that flame that statement KNOW that the raid gear (especially the higher tiers of it) is OP relative to all other available options including dedicated PVP gear and want to keep hiding behind it and are afraid of a fair and real challenge. Go ahead and keep talking smack on the internet forums/channels and getting your satisfaction from killing the non-raiders with trivial difficulty due to gear, no ones judging.</p></blockquote><p>Heads up, if you are wearing raid gear in BG's you are stupid.</p><p>please never post again.</p>

[Stuckx]

<p>Nerfing healers is not the solution. Healers aren't OP,it's the crappy DPSers that can't kill us that make us seem OP. Any assassin should have very little trouble killing a healer. Vymm does it on a regular basis. I may pot cure his first 11 second stifle,but when that second one comes up,9 times out of ten he's going to spike me down within the first 5 seconds of his stifle.</p><p>A good DPS class can and will kill a healer.</p><p>Nerf everyone else's heals though. Absolutely no reason at all for tanks to be topping the heal parse.</p>

[Putyo]

<p>you arent a very good warden then</p>

[Stuckx]

<p><cite>Putyo@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>you arent a very good warden then</p></blockquote><p>Or,more likely, you're just terrible at whatever class you play. If you can't kill ANY healer within the 11 seconds that healer is stifled,unable to cast anything because his cure pot is down. You are absolutely terrible and need to just stop playing.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>Vymm would generally kill me before the pvp crit/blue adorns, now he does not even phase me.</p><p>No fault of his own its just survivability went through the roof, 85% pvp crit mit/25k hp/380ish toughness and no dps will kill you by himself.</p><p>Survivability needs to be lowered across the board imo.  Either through heals, capping pvp crit mit or something.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p>The power thing is nice for wardens but I've had some chanters and various other mana drain classes give me a hard time in BGs from time to time (too bad they can't do anything about mana signets/potions <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />).  It comes down to people simply knowing their class and trying different tactics to win.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Putyo@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As for those that will say "get better gear" or "learn to play", why don't you strip off that sparkly raid gear and don some gear that is a bit less OP and then come out on BG and talk smack. Those that flame that statement KNOW that the raid gear (especially the higher tiers of it) is OP relative to all other available options including dedicated PVP gear and want to keep hiding behind it and are afraid of a fair and real challenge. Go ahead and keep talking smack on the internet forums/channels and getting your satisfaction from killing the non-raiders with trivial difficulty due to gear, no ones judging.</p></blockquote><p>Heads up, if you are wearing raid gear in BG's you are stupid.</p><p>please never post again.</p></blockquote><p>Little heads up, but on pve servers, you either wear the garbage MC gear with toughness, or you wear the BG fabled gear which the pve raid gear > alot of pieces of the PVP gear we can chose from.</p><p>And the raid gear comment was more directed at the non-armor slots such as jewelry/weapons/symbols (most noteably stacking procs and min/maxing the effects your class uses most) that exponentially spank the daylights out of the BG token gear and most of the instance gear. It's the fact that the raid gear when properly bundled is disproportionate to any other properly bundled gear from quests, instances, or BG tokens, and on PVE, that is all we can chose from. IDK whats available through the other merchants on pvp servers, but I know you do have more choices for pvp secific gear. Sorry for not making that more clear, but I doubt any clearification would have prevented a nagafen player from slinging personal attacks or stupidity insults as your server is just to addicted to them instead of constructive and explanitory responses. Calling someone stupid and inciting anger is just easier and more personally satisfying than posting something constructive isn't it? If I missed something that is pertinent, feel free to explain it because I've spent months min/maxing raid mobs and a matter of a half dozen hours on pvp; a side effect of <strong>being on a pve server</strong>.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Nerfing healers is not the solution. Healers aren't OP,it's the crappy DPSers that can't kill us that make us seem OP. Any assassin should have very little trouble killing a healer. Vymm does it on a regular basis. I may pot cure his first 11 second stifle,but when that second one comes up,9 times out of ten he's going to spike me down within the first 5 seconds of his stifle.</p><p>A good DPS class can and will kill a healer.</p><p>Nerf everyone else's heals though. Absolutely no reason at all for tanks to be topping the heal parse.</p></blockquote><p>Healers actually now can heal for much much more than they were able to in the past, but mostly that came from pve requirements. If you fought Valdoartus Varsoon before the first nerf in TSO's existence, he was retardedly difficult and even against a guardian who was well known on our server for how tough and good he was against tough mobs, and with TSO t4 full set, he was getting one shotted for his full 25k hp even with a mystic and warden pushing over 10k hps. We were healing our butts off as fast and as hard as we could with all protection buffs and abilities up, and as gear progressed, heals kept getting more and more improvements. By the end of TSO, my warden had an encounter parse of 17.6k hps on his pure healing fight which did not count blessings, did not count potential temp buffs I could have gotten before hand, did not count proper gear selection to maximize my raw heal output, did not count that if a Fury had used their mythical buff on me it would have been much more, and did not count that I was not aa speced for pure healing at the time. It's gone up even more since then. The only downside to my warden though is that I cannot see how much his maximum hps potential is because someone gets killed and my group heals aren't landing on someone they could have been, and/or you just do not face many encounters where a warden gets to show off their potential let alone 100% of it.</p><p>In that respect; considering how much life an average player has, and considering the average life of a tank, and considering how much a healer can heal nowadays compared to in TSO, it seems like they didn't account for the rapid improvement of single target heals due to the rapid modifier, stat, potency, and crit bonus increases in SF which is making the healers improvements disproportionate to what survivability, dps, and utility have done in the same timeframe. So actually, yes healers are conditionally OP in terms that we're use to having far smaller increases in hps, and players have become accustomed to in terms of how much dps you need to override healer output. It's not impossible to out dps a healer's hps, it's just much more difficult than it use to be because healers use to put out considerably less hps proportionately. It use to take 5-6 seconds to restore a tanks life to full, now good healers can do it within a couple seconds but thats also because as a playerbase we've grown accustomed to layering heals on before the damage is done.</p><p>If you drop heals, you're going to cripple anyone in hard mode pve since they don't scale heals in pvp and a drop of heals is the last thing raiders need in hard mode PVE. If you scale heals in pvp, you've got more work on balancing both systems which the last thing the devs need is an additional system to balance not to mention it would cripple procs that the squishies rely heavily on. If you decrease the survivability in terms of raw numbers on pvp it would make gear not provide the exact benefits it claims to.</p><p>The other problem is that gear progression and recieved benefits is on a exponential figure slope instead of a fixed incline. As you go further into the gear pregression, the exponentially and vastly more powerful you become which offsets an environment where everyone is fighting together regardless of status of progression. Players with really good gear should be far more resiliant, but there is a point where they become basically invincible to anything other than massive nukes, and even then it's hard to drop them. On our server a paladin and inquisitor dueled for 3 hours before calling it off. Both were doing at least 3k dps the whole time and managing their power and couldn't kill each other and both were in raid gear. They put on only mastercrafted gear and the match was less than 4 minutes (inquisitor won due to power). If raid gear was not good for pvp, that would not have been the difference in results.</p><p>IMO, the solution is two parts. Reduce the amount damage is being scaled down by and smoother more linear progression of gear prowess with a reduced gap between non-raid and raid gear in pvp effectiveness. A naked player wouldn't take as much damage as a mob in pve would, so obviously theres scaling of damage going on there wether it be in outgoing damage or mitigation bonuses inherrent to players.</p><p>Other than that minor change to match proportionate outputs from hps, dps, survivability, and utility (assuming the bard overhaul makes them more than just 90% VC buff slaves and able to compete with the advantage the interupt/stun/mez/power chanters give), and asside from high end gear making players near invincible, I'd have to agree with staticlex's statement and past statements that most of BGs issues are that people need to learn how to play their class right and try different tactics to win in pvp.</p>

[Odys]

<p><cite>Rick777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>BG's is as close to zero fun as you can get, especially for a healer.  I've forced my way to buying my fabled BG pants, but had to really force myself thru.  The problem is that the way people function isn't the most fun way to play or even the most competitive way to play to win.  I must say though that once in a while I'll get into a BG where the group/raid is organized, not afraid to give orders, and the group functions correctly.</p><p>The main problem is a lack of direction.  You just have a bunch of people out for themselves.  The 6v6 isn't so bad, with my J-cloak I can usually run in and grab the relic, run back to my base and just spam heal myself to give my team a nice lead, then after that I just concentrate on healing whoever has the relic, or healing the group as we go in and try to get it back.  If you have a team that is cohesive and stops and regroups before charging in it's not so bad, unless you are up against one of the uber pre-made groups that just crush everything in their path.  Ganak isn't so bad either if their is some leadership and players don't suck.  Smugglers sucks to the maximum except for that rare time when you get someone who is not afraid to direct the raid, run in win center, 1-2 groups keep center while other groups go cw and ccw to get the outsides, someone keeping everyone up on where the mass of the other team is going, if they are amassing to take center back, etc etc.  But usually you will just get a bunch of players who fan out and run everywhere without any real understanding of where or why they are going there.</p><p>And this is the real crux of what makes BG not fun, it's just players who don't know what to do, either they lack the basic understanding of what to do, and/or a combination of not having any leadership to tell you what to do.  In a raid you are used to being told explicitly what your role is and you do it, but in BG you don't see this that much, and if you do there is still a lot of leeway within those orders and group dynamics always play a part.  So even with this leadership if your tank just runs off out of your healing range, or lets you get killed instead of taunting off of you, then nothing is going to save the group.  Especially lately where it's common to only have one healer in an entire ganak raid, or 1-2 healers in an entire smugglers raid.</p><p>I'll keep forcing my way thru content that is 99% not fun because 1) the gear is better than most stuff I can get in SF mark zones and 2) the PVE game is pretty dead and you either can't find a group, or find a lot of crappy groups who can't get thru a SF zone.  This is the way SOE wants it, this is what makes SOE money, and this is what I'm going to have to do.  But I must say that 1% of the time I do find that gem of a group/raid which is organized, everyone knows their role, and winning feels like a reward for that cohesiveness.</p></blockquote><p>That's why i never entered a BG, 4 years ao (about that) the same childish mess was going in Wow BGs, very few players were able to understand that staying close to my healer and protecting him was  an almost certain way to win. When i got lucky enough to find people with 2 digits of Iq we won very often and quicly. Note that at that period people will join and leave a BG during the battle, leading to a total mess. Moreover you were always in team with people you never saw before and will usually never see after.</p><p>The result was a zerg feast with no objective.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><p><cite></cite><em>If you fought Valdoartus Varsoon before the first nerf in TSO's existence, he was retardedly difficult and even against a guardian who was well known on our server for how tough and good he was against tough mobs, and with TSO t4 full set, he was getting one shotted for his full 25k hp even with a mystic and warden pushing over 10k hps.</em></p><p>I gotta call BS.  This mob was nerfed well before anyone had a full set of T4.</p><p><em>By the end of TSO, my warden had an encounter parse of 17.6k..</em></p><p>More BS.  What encounter and how long was the fight?</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><p><cite></cite><em>If you fought Valdoartus Varsoon before the first nerf in TSO's existence, he was retardedly difficult and even against a guardian who was well known on our server for how tough and good he was against tough mobs, and with TSO t4 full set, he was getting one shotted for his full 25k hp even with a mystic and warden pushing over 10k hps.</em></p><p>I gotta call BS.  This mob was nerfed well before anyone had a full set of T4.</p><p><em>By the end of TSO, my warden had an encounter parse of 17.6k..</em></p><p>More BS.  What encounter and how long was the fight?</p></blockquote><p>Ok, the guard had 6 pieces of TSO and I don't remember what his chest piece was, but it was definately non-suck. The major nerf patch went in a week and 6 days after we did that zone and at least I felt really screwed after doing it post-patch. The 6 hours of effort and repair bills I endured for my void soaked feathers felt trivialized. The mystic Zero wasn't nearly as disappointed seeing as getting his feathers became much easier. Edit: btw, I didn't know about the nerfs that happened within the first month of TSO being live, I guess the proper way to identify the time at which we did it was after they made it a group emote in the blades room, but before the nerf following that one.</p><p>The fight was on the DoomSmith from DF, but we also pulled the entire room and the mob who was at the end of the walkway towards the center thanks to our warlock who liked to tank (redlifesaver for those that know him), the tank was Electrah (aka Spahnlie from Dracos Argent) who arrowed the mob on the walkway leading towards the last room. Before we went in, I said that I wouldn't cure anything to try and challenge myself in such a trivial zone, so spahnlie tried to kill us like she always did when her healer got smug. Of course almost everyone was in red or orange and a couple times briefly back into yellow and green durring the fight. Fight lasted just shy of 3 minutes iirc (it's burried within an external HD that I lost the power cable to and haven't yet converted into an internal HD otherwise I'd pull it up in a heartbeat).</p><p>It's not a raid encounter, but being a warden you know that spiking huge hps on an opportune aoe wont inflate the parse for that long and that the only way to see a warden's true potential can be used is when everyone's getting hit for large amounts but not in large enough amounts to one shot them (which is the only reason that parse was anywhere near that high). Min/maxing for the perfect setup would have included a dpsing fury that can push the numbers spahnlie does on her fury instead of the troub we had (although that would have taken JCap out and the heals wouldn't have been ticking faster due to harmonization and that at the start of the fight is probably the main reason we made it not to mention the fury would have healed where as the troub can't...), otherwise I had gravitas at the start and at the very end of the fight, and coercive healing on me. Warden, Coercer, Dirge, Troub, Warlock, SK was the group.</p>

[Aatex]

<p>I didn't *try* to kill anyone :p That just seemed to happen a lot <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[StaticLex]

<p><cite>Putyo@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As for those that will say "get better gear" or "learn to play", why don't you strip off that sparkly raid gear and don some gear that is a bit less OP and then come out on BG and talk smack. Those that flame that statement KNOW that the raid gear (especially the higher tiers of it) is OP relative to all other available options including dedicated PVP gear and want to keep hiding behind it and are afraid of a fair and real challenge. Go ahead and keep talking smack on the internet forums/channels and getting your satisfaction from killing the non-raiders with trivial difficulty due to gear, no ones judging.</p></blockquote><p>Heads up, if you are wearing raid gear in BG's you are stupid.</p></blockquote><p>lol?</p><p>Sorry but huge potency, crit bonus, and red adorns at teh win.</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Nerfing healers is not the solution. Healers aren't OP,it's the crappy DPSers that can't kill us that make us seem OP. Any assassin should have very little trouble killing a healer. Vymm does it on a regular basis. I may pot cure his first 11 second stifle,but when that second one comes up,9 times out of ten he's going to spike me down within the first 5 seconds of his stifle.</p><p>A good DPS class can and will kill a healer.</p><p>Nerf everyone else's heals though. Absolutely no reason at all for tanks to be topping the heal parse.</p></blockquote><p>Healers actually now can heal for much much more than they were able to in the past, but mostly that came from pve requirements. If you fought Valdoartus Varsoon before the first nerf in TSO's existence, he was retardedly difficult and even against a guardian who was well known on our server for how tough and good he was against tough mobs, and with TSO t4 full set, he was getting one shotted for his full 25k hp even with a mystic and warden pushing over 10k hps. We were healing our butts off as fast and as hard as we could with all protection buffs and abilities up, and as gear progressed, heals kept getting more and more improvements. By the end of TSO, my warden had an encounter parse of 17.6k hps on his pure healing fight which did not count blessings, did not count potential temp buffs I could have gotten before hand, did not count proper gear selection to maximize my raw heal output, did not count that if a Fury had used their mythical buff on me it would have been much more, and did not count that I was not aa speced for pure healing at the time. It's gone up even more since then. The only downside to my warden though is that I cannot see how much his maximum hps potential is because someone gets killed and my group heals aren't landing on someone they could have been, and/or you just do not face many encounters where a warden gets to show off their potential let alone 100% of it.</p><p>In that respect; considering how much life an average player has, and considering the average life of a tank, and considering how much a healer can heal nowadays compared to in TSO, it seems like they didn't account for the rapid improvement of single target heals due to the rapid modifier, stat, potency, and crit bonus increases in SF which is making the healers improvements disproportionate to what survivability, dps, and utility have done in the same timeframe. So actually, yes healers are conditionally OP in terms that we're use to having far smaller increases in hps, and players have become accustomed to in terms of how much dps you need to override healer output. It's not impossible to out dps a healer's hps, it's just much more difficult than it use to be because healers use to put out considerably less hps proportionately. It use to take 5-6 seconds to restore a tanks life to full, now good healers can do it within a couple seconds but thats also because as a playerbase we've grown accustomed to layering heals on before the damage is done.</p><p>If you drop heals, you're going to cripple anyone in hard mode pve since they don't scale heals in pvp and a drop of heals is the last thing raiders need in hard mode PVE. If you scale heals in pvp, you've got more work on balancing both systems which the last thing the devs need is an additional system to balance not to mention it would cripple procs that the squishies rely heavily on. If you decrease the survivability in terms of raw numbers on pvp it would make gear not provide the exact benefits it claims to.</p><p>The other problem is that gear progression and recieved benefits is on a exponential figure slope instead of a fixed incline. As you go further into the gear pregression, the exponentially and vastly more powerful you become which offsets an environment where everyone is fighting together regardless of status of progression. Players with really good gear should be far more resiliant, but there is a point where they become basically invincible to anything other than massive nukes, and even then it's hard to drop them. On our server a paladin and inquisitor dueled for 3 hours before calling it off. Both were doing at least 3k dps the whole time and managing their power and couldn't kill each other and both were in raid gear. They put on only mastercrafted gear and the match was less than 4 minutes (inquisitor won due to power). If raid gear was not good for pvp, that would not have been the difference in results.</p><p>IMO, the solution is two parts. Reduce the amount damage is being scaled down by and smoother more linear progression of gear prowess with a reduced gap between non-raid and raid gear in pvp effectiveness. A naked player wouldn't take as much damage as a mob in pve would, so obviously theres scaling of damage going on there wether it be in outgoing damage or mitigation bonuses inherrent to players.</p><p>Other than that minor change to match proportionate outputs from hps, dps, survivability, and utility (assuming the bard overhaul makes them more than just 90% VC buff slaves and able to compete with the advantage the interupt/stun/mez/power chanters give), and asside from high end gear making players near invincible, I'd have to agree with staticlex's statement and past statements that most of BGs issues are that people need to learn how to play their class right and try different tactics to win in pvp.</p></blockquote><p>I call BS on the Paladin vs Inq duel. You said both were doing over 3k DPS <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>THE WHOLE TIME</strong></span>, for a duration spanning 3 hours. A paladin sustaining 3k HPS for 3 hours is not going to happen.You also fail to focus on one of the more significant issues, the combination of survivability and self healing available to some tanks, that goes above and beyond anything ever seen before.</p>

[Prestissimo]

<p><cite>Avirodar@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I call BS on the Paladin vs Inq duel. You said both were doing over 3k DPS <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>THE WHOLE TIME</strong></span>, for a duration spanning 3 hours. A paladin sustaining 3k HPS for 3 hours is not going to happen.You also fail to focus on one of the more significant issues, the combination of survivability and self healing available to some tanks, that goes above and beyond anything ever seen before.</p></blockquote><p>I didn't say they weren't two members of the best few guilds on the server and did mention they were in raid gear which at least indicates they're not scrub players. My paladin who is definately nothing to write home about has only a few procs that return damage and proc a heal when I'm hit, and those combined with my mythical alone will give on average in easy instances about 1k hps return while the priest is landing about 500 hps on me. Thats even without me casting any heals. (I wanted at least a little damage to land on me so I could throw my ward and have it count for something healed so it would proc my mythical's boost to spell damage, but it's changed now so I've since changed over to ward procs.)</p><p>Throw in items like the ring of repulsion and other ward effects when damaged; what do you think would happen then? Inqs don't throw haymakers with each and every swing, and paladin's mitigation in full tso t4 is nuts for that level, so if it were me setting up for the duel, I'd chose to layer up on procs when damaged because they'd be going off like crazy.</p><p>Call BS if you want, doesn't change the fact that it happened up there near the DD giver in moors durring the 3rd to last month of TSO.</p>

[TwistedFaith]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Pvp dmg could use a boost, my Inq is sitting at ~30% dmg reduction w/ ~80% pvp crit mit and ~25k hp self-buffed.</p><p>Before the last change 6 people would generally kill me unless they were terrible, now I can stand up to 8-10 people and kill them all once they blow their loads.</p><p>Increase dmg across the board or cap pvp crit mit at ~70%</p></blockquote><p>NO CLASS IN ANY GEAR SHOULD EVER BE ABLE TO HOLD OF 8/10 PEOPLE!</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Pvp dmg could use a boost, my Inq is sitting at ~30% dmg reduction w/ ~80% pvp crit mit and ~25k hp self-buffed.</p><p>Before the last change 6 people would generally kill me unless they were terrible, now I can stand up to 8-10 people and kill them all once they blow their loads.</p><p>Increase dmg across the board or cap pvp crit mit at ~70%</p></blockquote><p>NO CLASS IN ANY GEAR SHOULD EVER BE ABLE TO HOLD OF 8/10 PEOPLE!</p></blockquote><p>Do those numbers include dumbfire pets? :p</p>