PvP damage is too low (melee and spell damage too)

[Dorsan]

<p>Hello,</p><p>  I have just had another draw match, it was vs a nicely geared paladin. We kept hitting eachother for some 30 minutes and then gave up because we were both at full health and power after 30 minutes of fight. I am not sure how this could be fixed but the overall damage output is not enough to kill eachother if both players have near full PvP gear. Either the defensive capabilities of all players needs to be nerfed or the power regeneration. The spell/ca damage could be increased as well but that would have devastating effects for the people in bad gear.</p><p>Thanks,</p><p>Dorsan, necromaner of Nagafen</p>

[Lodor]

<p>This wouldnt happen with any class that cant heal themselves.</p><p>You and the paladin can both heal yourself a lot. so, long as you have power regen that is decent that will happen when you fight another that can heal.</p>

[Seiffil]

<p>Part of that's also because while damage is decreased for pvp, with the exception of  your lifetaps I think, heals retained the same power they would have in PVE usage.</p>

[Brynhild]

<p>This has absoutely nothing to do with the pvp gear.. I've had 2 hours+ duels crusader vs crusader way before SF expansion.. This is nothing new.  Whoever runs out of power loses, and if you both have stacked power regen gear it's a useless fight.</p><p>Same thing with crusader vs priest, as long as you both have power it will never end.</p>

[Brynhild]

<p><cite>Lodor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This wouldnt happen with any class that cant heal themselves.</p><p>You and the paladin can both heal yourself a lot. so, long as you have power regen that is decent that will happen when you fight another that can heal.</p></blockquote><p>Heals are most definitely decreased for pvp, wards too, considerably</p>

[Stuckx]

<p>Melee damage is fine..if you increase melee damage anymore,assassins will be pretty much oneshotting everyone..Spell damage needs a boost,and tanks need a nerf. No reason for any class to stand up to a x2 + beating on them..only to immediately pop right back up when they die cause they have three deathsaves that heal to full.</p>

[Wytie]

<p>I agree it just depends on the class makeups of the 2 fighting each other.</p><p>But this is what everyone was asking for.... longer pvp fights.  So we got it.</p><p>Now its all about the debuffs and focus spike burns, which in a way is how it should be, gives you time to react as long as you have the pvp/bg gear that is.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>Seiffil@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Part of that's also because while damage is decreased for pvp, with the exception of  your lifetaps I think, heals retained the same power they would have in PVE usage.</p></blockquote><p>Heals don't heal for the same as in PvE...</p>

[Roald]

<p>You guys didn't seem to realise that one of the classes was a necro. You know, the class everyone QQ's is too squishy? If they're living for a long time, then it definately needs adjusting.</p><p>Regardless, having played after the change myself I agree that damage has decreased too much. Should be adjusted.</p>

[Dorsan]

<p>I understand that tank vs tank fights and healer vs healer fights went on forever even before. But necro vs crusader fights went down extremely fast before this, neither the crusader was able to outheal necro dps nor the necro to outheal the crusader dps. It was a quick burst and one of the players would go down.</p><p>edit: And for those who say it isn't PvP gear issue, you are wrong. If you take a raid geared necro vs a raid geared paladin, one or the other would die in 5 seconds because they would have both increased DPS and decreased defenses (near zero PvP crit mit and zero toughness)</p>

[LexVS]

<p>Please do something with healing in pvp.  As a monk I have too mach a ward/healing procs/abilities  (more than 1000hps) and near  70% avoidance in pvp.  It is impossible to win each other in dueling 1 vs 1, and even 1 vs 2, 1 vs 3...</p><p>Look at epic healing adornments,  its crit [Removed for Content]...</p>

[XustinuS]

<p>I really like the idea of long and tough fights... No one must die in  1 shot even the  gear difference is too high. </p><p>But on the other side... Trying to kill a tough crusader or healer with a huge crowd for a very long time and when u see it's going nowhere there seems to be something wrong. Even with dispells,interrupts,stifle and all that things one of the classes i'm talking about can survive for ages with the right proc gear and their own heals,lifetaps whtever.</p><p>As new pvp gear gives lot of hp,stats,toughness,crit mit it seems like pvp heals need a very little nerf at least.</p><p>%10-15 percent maybe a good amount to see how things gonna differ.</p>

[LexVS]

<p>20% I think.  And , please, check all procs, many of them can crit, with "no modifiable" flag on.  Look at mages shield,  it's regeneration to fast in pvp.</p>

[Eboncross]

<p><cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Melee damage is fine..if you increase melee damage anymore,assassins will be pretty much oneshotting everyone..Spell damage needs a boost,and <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">tanks need a nerf</span></strong>. No reason for any class to stand up to a x2 + beating on them..only to immediately pop right back up when they die cause they have three deathsaves that heal to full.</p></blockquote><p>Says the Warden that can take on a whole group and never run out of power. Give me a break</p>

[ailen]

<p>You people are missing the point.</p><p>If you increase damage more, then the people without gear will die instantly to anyone that either raids or farmed bg tokens, or gasp, both. </p><p>the gap between the casual player and the person that doesn't seem to have much else going on in his/her life is HUGE right now as far as playability of this game.  There's a bajillion proc items, items that give damage, as well as items that give power and items that ward.  Why must we continue to just buff everything.  BUFF BUFF BUFF keep buffing it up and you're going to see some chaos that's worse than what we have now.</p><p>Look at rangers and assassins atm.  Except against the very geared out basically everyone just falls over dead agains them.. they're autoattacking for THOUSANDS.  if you don't have tanks that can take that beating now, there's no point.  If you don't have healers that can take that same beating, then what do you have?  random 1 shots everywhere.</p><p>Nobody likes to see the word NERF.  But honestly, the PVE gear isn't translating well into PVP and its showing now more than ever.  the Developers need to sit down, and adjust the effect this gear is having on the PVP system and reduce healing power, reduce ward size on procs, reduce damage on procs, and make it so people can kill each other without having to be able to sustain 75K dps.  that's just idiotic.</p><p>Wholesale changes across the board need to be done.  Not just "fix tanks" or "increase spell damage"  Something is fundamentally wrong right now with how all of it is working...  Please think about it.</p>

[Proud_Silence]

<p>@ Ailen : My main is an Assassin, and since i do raid (no hard mode killed yet tho), i know what you're talking about regarding the insta death against ranger and assassins. However, from the assassin point of view there's quite some drawbacks too. I do kill plenty of people with the new "shadowstep - finish move" combo, those are the ones i would have killed in T8 as well, would just take a few seconds more. There is still a pretty big ammount of classes that i will die to within 10 seconds or less if they have similar gear and/or know what to do against assassins ( basically just don't stant still...)</p><p>Since sometimes you end up with opposing faction in BG, i was able to inspect a lot of people i know i have fought before, and it's in fact those that wear the BG/pvp armor or very high end raiding gear that i am unable to kill before dying myself.</p><p>I see a lot of complaining about people getting destroyed by assassins, but at least compared to rangers you have a chance of moving out of the autoattack area. Especially in warfields it is once again showing the absurd mechanic of ranged autoattack dmg vs close combat autoattack. a 5m action radius vs a 50m+ action radius is a big difference , even more so when there's 3sec+ latency.</p><p>I doubt assassins will ever reach the survivability where they can fight a crusader or decent healer and having it end up in a power regen contest...we just die too easy and don't have enough heals. the heal procs are nice, but you can't control when they occur.</p><p>So while i can see that some classes are going to be unable to kill eachother, i think assassins are about ok, having the opportunity to spike dmg, but also being fairly squishy once the innitial momentum of the assassin's first attack has passed by.</p>

[ailen]

<p>Exactly.  Think about what you just said.</p><p>Against some classes you'll never win.  Against other classes you win almost instantly.  You don't see anything wrong with that?  Whatever happened to people not being able to heal all of your damage off so you have a chance to kill them, or they can't absorb all your damage so you have a chance to kill them.  Instead you have to spike a ridiculous amount of damage.  that's the assassin, most other classes can't come close to what an assassin has in its stifle then its ability to turn around and practically 2 shot anyone.</p><p>I never said nerf assassins per se, I mean to say nerf everyone.   Healers HAVE to be juggernauts atm becuase some classes can come close to 1 shotting anyone.  Crusaders have to be able to absorb damage because they're supposed to be taunting, but lets be honest, who does that anymore?</p><p>Classes are HAVING to be crazy op in some areas because other classes are crazy op in their respects.  Why so much OP if you have these items, OP if you have this much AA, OP.. see the trend? </p><p>that's my point.</p>

[Greggthegrmreapr]

<p>Fix the the huge gap between raid gear and pvp gear, then it will be better.</p>

[Naggasaki]

<p><cite>Denna@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Fix the the huge gap between raid gear and pvp gear, then it will be better.</p></blockquote><p>They did that in TSO. And look where it got us today.</p>

[Dorsan]

PvP gear is pretty nice for PvP with all the defense it provides. However if both opponents are in full PvP gear they will not be able to damage each other much, regardless of the class. And that is what I am having issues with. Just look at it from pure math standpoint. The new PvP gear gets you above 100 crit mit and capped resists. So you got all the survivability you had in T8 right there. But on top of that we got 5% more max health and nearly 1000 more physical mitigation from new character traits. Then a 4% physical mitigation adorn. And then 40% straight reduction for all incoming PvP damage. So after all that, our survivability in PvP gear is far beyond anything we had in T8. This is true for all classes. The damage is also increased by added PvP potency and high crit bonus, but it is not nearly at the level of the defenses. At this point I am not sure what would be the right direction, but once everyone gets their full PvP gear sets, most everyone will be unkillable and groups even more so.

[Alazarz]

<p><cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You guys didn't seem to realise that one of the classes was a necro. You know, the class everyone QQ's is too squishy? If they're living for a long time, then it definately needs adjusting.</p><p>Regardless, having played after the change myself I agree that damage has decreased too much. Should be adjusted.</p></blockquote><p>yes. Infact i fought dorsan in ganak on my sk and he stood in there like a tank. Given he is a superb necro. he still shouldnt be able to take the kind of abuse i was dealing out. i do over 1 million damage in battlegrounds frequently. I can do many dpses in pvp. Point being im not in MC gear and im an sk and hes standing toe to toe.. necros are supposed to kill fast at range.. as with any mage if you get up close and personal it should be gameover.. up their damage ALOT and lower their survivability WAY down.. imo</p>

[Greggthegrmreapr]

<p><cite>Naggasaki@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Denna@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Fix the the huge gap between raid gear and pvp gear, then it will be better.</p></blockquote><p>They did that in TSO. And look where it got us today.</p></blockquote><p>They did that in TSO and it was decent, still could have been better, but then they went away from it again.  The PvP gear in SF sucks.  Plain and simple.</p>

[Dorsan]

<p><cite>Alazarz@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You guys didn't seem to realise that one of the classes was a necro. You know, the class everyone QQ's is too squishy? If they're living for a long time, then it definately needs adjusting.</p><p>Regardless, having played after the change myself I agree that damage has decreased too much. Should be adjusted.</p></blockquote><p>yes. Infact i fought dorsan in ganak on my sk and he stood in there like a tank. Given he is a superb necro. he still shouldnt be able to take the kind of abuse i was dealing out. i do over 1 million damage in battlegrounds frequently. I can do many dpses in pvp. Point being im not in MC gear and im an sk and hes standing toe to toe.. necros are supposed to kill fast at range.. as with any mage if you get up close and personal it should be gameover.. up their damage ALOT and lower their survivability WAY down.. imo</p></blockquote><p>I completely agree... You should have wrote who you are because I had no idea you're Xaviour lol. We had many fights back in T8 and it was real PvP back then. We were hitting eachother like 2 trucks and the fights were over fast - one way or another. Summoners are supposed to be the squishiest class and if a summoner cant act like tank that means that the overall damage dealt in PvP is bad. Oh, and that ganak fight you mention, it wasn't even 1on1 because there was a ranger from your team constantly hitting me as well (was a bit behind you).</p><p>This should be fixed somehow.</p>

[MurFalad]

<p><cite>Toxis@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You people are missing the point.</p><p>If you increase damage more, then the people without gear will die instantly to anyone that either raids or farmed bg tokens, or gasp, both. </p><p>the gap between the casual player and the person that doesn't seem to have much else going on in his/her life is HUGE right now as far as playability of this game.  There's a bajillion proc items, items that give damage, as well as items that give power and items that ward.  Why must we continue to just buff everything.  BUFF BUFF BUFF keep buffing it up and you're going to see some chaos that's worse than what we have now.</p><p>Look at rangers and assassins atm.  Except against the very geared out basically everyone just falls over dead agains them.. they're autoattacking for THOUSANDS.  if you don't have tanks that can take that beating now, there's no point.  If you don't have healers that can take that same beating, then what do you have?  random 1 shots everywhere.</p><p>Nobody likes to see the word NERF.  But honestly, the PVE gear isn't translating well into PVP and its showing now more than ever.  the Developers need to sit down, and adjust the effect this gear is having on the PVP system and reduce healing power, reduce ward size on procs, reduce damage on procs, and make it so people can kill each other without having to be able to sustain 75K dps.  that's just idiotic.</p><p>Wholesale changes across the board need to be done.  Not just "fix tanks" or "increase spell damage"  Something is fundamentally wrong right now with how all of it is working...  Please think about it.</p></blockquote><p>Totally agree here.</p><p>Playing a tank with no PVP gear I have zero survivability, especially against magical damage which seems to ignore my resists, reading the threads there are a lot more problems there. </p><p>I think the gear really needs a rethink, if they altered it to a similar system to the void shard gear it could encourage and make it easier for players to get a basic BG set, and not to feel the investment is wasted since you need this first to get the later fabled set.  Have this basic set also made cheaply by tradeskillers and they would not feel left out. </p><p>Right now either you get a mastercrafted set for 120 plat or so..</p><p>Or you spend hours not being able to contribute effectively to your team until you get your first set of BG armour, that design does encourage AFKing unfortunately as if a player cannot influence a battle they won't be very interested in taking part.  The gear should not make such a difference that you cannot compete, or at least you should be able to quickly get a set that allows you to compete...</p>

[Hallowell]

<p><cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Melee damage is fine..if you increase melee damage anymore,assassins will be pretty much oneshotting everyone..Spell damage needs a boost,and tanks need a nerf. No reason for any class to stand up to a x2 + beating on them..only to immediately pop right back up when they die cause they have three deathsaves that heal to full.</p></blockquote><p>Tbh - a tank class SHOULD be able to withstand 2 ppl beating on them. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> thats why they are called "tanks"... and the thing about deathsaves has nothing to do with being a tank or anything - thats a spell working as intended and would be a whole different discussion <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Brynhild]

<p>I know some people will laugh at this, but i still see enchanters topping parses in BG.  Doing over 1 million, etc. Very rarely see other mages doing this.   Defies logic that enchanters should out dps warlocks in a group vs group fight, but they are :/</p><p>Berserkers are up there also #1 and then sk/brawler #2 ,and swash, assassin, ranger.  I can see the ranger/assassin/swash/big because they are supposed to do dps but should be succeptible to cc more.</p><p>Damage has definitely changed a bit, but even with a full set of the new BG gear still take quite a lot of damage now that people are getting a lot of the new RAID gear jewelry and weapons which is making a big difference.</p>

[Dorsan]

BG parses are completely meaningless. Until they actually fix it to show your damage done to wards, they only show how careful you were in selecting targets from the group without mystic/defiler and how successfully you avoided sorcerers with their regenerating wards.

[Ralpmet]

<p>I don't know why enchanters were brought up here, but anytime you see someone doing extremely large amounts of bg damage it just means they were pumping damage and not killing people, they were just pumping damage into dot heals or something a long those lines (not wards though)</p><p>As an enchanter I can top my team in kills, killing blows, and parse at only 1/3rd the damage of the highest dps on my team. Does that mean I'm kill stealing? No, it means when I target someone they go down, they don't get healed or anything, they just drop, they don't have time to heal.</p><p>If you're seeing enchanters topping the parse they aren't debuffing or trying to kill people, just trying to pump out dps.</p>

[XustinuS]

<p>yeah high parses are generally from warlock,sk,zerker whch delivers the damage to many opponents. But saying that these guys aim is not killing people is wrong.</p><p>I pick the toughest or the key target like healer or chanter and use aoe,encounter spells and single trgh that target. There is nothing wrng with getting some extra kills while u r trying to kill your own target. Also it forces other opponents around to leave the area and let u safe casting.</p>

[Misterbucket]

<p>They need to do something because 45+ minute group fights get BORING</p>

[Alazarz]

<p><cite>Misterbucket@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They need to do something because 45+ minute group fights get BORING</p></blockquote><p>Can be boring yes. if there are 2 pro groups fighting one another it can go on for alot longer than 45min.. shoulda seen guild groups like Onyx vs Purity in kp.. those fights can last well over 1 hour.. both teams having infinite power and all in raid gear back in T8.. forget about it</p>