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Landiin

05-28-2010, 02:10 PM

By a forums mod any ways... Hey better then nothing right? Ok maybe not...

Yimway

05-28-2010, 04:41 PM

Sorry, I flagged the thread for moderation.I doubt it would have been noticed otherwise.

Landiin

05-28-2010, 06:50 PM

Dang you Atan, I thought it might be a sign!!

MurFalad

06-01-2010, 05:10 AM

I doubt it, no dev could have experienced the soul destroying futility for one moment of playing a guardian in BGs. And the dungeon encounter designers are still progressing along the More challenge=More Mobs gameplay model which only has space for the crusader class of tanks.I fully expect that in the next expansion we'll either be a clown class for tanking, or more likely buffed up so that we are indistinquishable to a crusader class, neither sounds interesting to me.

Wasuna

06-02-2010, 11:15 AM

Well, when a child notices that they only get attention when they are being bad what do they do? They be bad. It's pretty simple. If SOE doesn't want their forums to turn into a nightmare of attacks and flames then they need to fix the underlying problem.To bad SoE created a game with 6 fighters that they promised over and over that all of them could tank. This problem is never ending. There will always be a best class based on the current expansion. Trying to do these minor tweeks through expansions to balance tanks to try and not overshoot the effects like in The Shadowknight Oddssey sounds like a good idea but it just leaves us with the Shadowknight Frontiers.

Raahl

06-04-2010, 12:09 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry, I flagged the thread for moderation.I doubt it would have been noticed otherwise.</blockquote>I did also.

aislynn00

06-04-2010, 12:19 PM

<cite>MurFalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>I doubt it, no dev could have experienced the soul destroying futility for one moment of playing a guardian in BGs.</blockquote>The devs aren't basing class balance on Battlegrounds solo performance (thank goodness for small wonders), so I suggest you keep your complaints in that regard in the PvP forum, where PvE players, such as yours truly, don't have to filter them out.<blockquote>And the dungeon encounter designers are still progressing along the More challenge=More Mobs gameplay model which only has space for the crusader class of tanks.I fully expect that in the next expansion we'll either be a clown class for tanking, or more likely buffed up so that we are indistinquishable to a crusader class, neither sounds interesting to me.</blockquote>Could you please do me a favor and take your whining somewhere else? It sure as hell isn't helping anyone.If you think guardians have issues, then post facts supported by solid data, not claims that you pass off as self-evident truth.For instance, you are implying that only crusaders are able to tank what currently passes for challenging zones.I call BS on that. A week into the expansion, I, playing a guardian, had successfully tanked every single Sentinel's Fate heroic instance except Erudin Royal Palace. I completed every one of those instances the first time I tried.As for Erudin Royal Palace, it took a few attempts to get the strategy right vs the second named encounter, but I still successfully tanked that one before the guild SK, paladin, or monk managed the same.Today, having geared up a bit (I still don't have even a single hard-mode raid drop), I'm pulling whole rooms and holding aggro without any issue vs equivalently equipped damage dealers. I usually have either a dirge or a coercer, but rarely both, and I normally don't have any hate-transferring scouts.No, I'm not decked out in newbie gear, but then again, only three of the items I'm wearing can't be acquired via instance groups or pickup raids, and the most important ones (belt, wrist, and shield) can either be bought off a Moonfield Hamlet vendor via marks, and respectively, acquired off an easy RoH raid mob that could be single-grouped today (i.e., Trakanon). As a matter of fact, if you don't want to go through the hassle of getting the shield, I find that Improved Moderate works just as well outside of raids.Let me reiterate:Stop spouting unfounded claims and instead back them up with solid data (AA specs, gear lists, and above all, parses), because right now, you sound just like yet another guardian with crusader DPS envy.

Rhymers

06-04-2010, 12:56 PM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MurFalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>I doubt it, no dev could have experienced the soul destroying futility for one moment of playing a guardian in BGs.</blockquote>The devs aren't basing class balance on Battlegrounds solo performance (thank goodness for small wonders), so I suggest you keep your complaints in that regard in the PvP forum, where PvE players, such as yours truly, don't have to filter them out.<blockquote>And the dungeon encounter designers are still progressing along the More challenge=More Mobs gameplay model which only has space for the crusader class of tanks.I fully expect that in the next expansion we'll either be a clown class for tanking, or more likely buffed up so that we are indistinquishable to a crusader class, neither sounds interesting to me.</blockquote>Could you please do me a favor and take your whining somewhere else? It sure as hell isn't helping anyone.If you think guardians have issues, then post facts supported by solid data, not claims that you pass off as self-evident truth.For instance, you are implying that only crusaders are able to tank what currently passes for challenging zones.I call BS on that. A week into the expansion, I, playing a guardian, had successfully tanked every single Sentinel's Fate heroic instance except Erudin Royal Palace. I completed every one of those instances the first time I tried.As for Erudin Royal Palace, it took a few attempts to get the strategy right vs the second named encounter, but I still successfully tanked that one before the guild SK, paladin, or monk managed the same.Today, having geared up a bit (I still don't have even a single hard-mode raid drop), I'm pulling whole rooms and holding aggro without any issue vs equivalently equipped damage dealers. I usually have either a dirge or a coercer, but rarely both, and I normally don't have any hate-transferring scouts.No, I'm not decked out in newbie gear, but then again, only three of the items I'm wearing can't be acquired via instance groups or pickup raids, and the most important ones (belt, wrist, and shield) can either be bought off a Moonfield Hamlet vendor via marks, and respectively, acquired off an easy RoH raid mob that could be single-grouped today (i.e., Trakanon). As a matter of fact, if you don't want to go through the hassle of getting the shield, I find that Improved Moderate works just as well outside of raids.Let me reiterate:Stop spouting unfounded claims and instead back them up with solid data (AA specs, gear lists, and above all, parses), because right now, you sound just like yet another guardian with crusader DPS envy.</blockquote>From what I read the majority of the Guards that post on this forum say the opposite of what you are saying here and one of them seems to be one of the top guards in the game. Who am I to believe you are them?From what I've read most guards agree they can do it but they have to have a perfect group make up (dirges/coercers or both) where crusaders aren't required to have them class to do the same. Now if you say you can do this with said classes because of your l33t skilz then I think you should share with the rest of the guard community.

Wasuna

06-04-2010, 01:29 PM

I'm actually one of the big posters here about the comparision between Guardians and Crusaders (SK's in particular) I have said that The Shadowknight's Fate expansion helped the Guardian our a great deal above where we were in The Shadowknight Oddsey. Guardians are better off now that we were in TSO. I also, as a Guardian have tanked and cleared every instance except for Palace. Some easier than others.That in no way changes the fact that every single one of those instance would have been done faster, easier with a Crusader tank. That is the problem. Guardians have MAYBE 1% more survivability in high end raid tanking which in NO WAY compensates us for the hardships we encounter in every other aspect. We have MUCH less DPS, Much less survivability in the low end raid/heroic game and we have a HUGE amount less threat generation.All fact, all agreed with even by the non-guardians. So, therefore, fix Guardians.

RafaelSmith

06-04-2010, 01:35 PM

My perspective on the current Guardian/fighter balance issue is probably abit different than most.A year+ ago my main was my Guardian...the only toon I had........the one I focused on. By the time I had gotten him to 80, gotten my Myth........the nerf of the Buckler like had already happened so really never saw the rumored OPness.TSO came.......its was nothign but utter frustration.....for both Groups and Raiding. Was in a small extremely casual raid force where only a handful of us were serious about our toons. Our SK being one of them was the absolute clear best choice to MT for what little raiding we could do. We lacked the support classes that a Guard needs and SK does not. I took my spot as OT and did have some fun with our little raids. Grouping on the other hand I simply just stopped even trying. We only had enough people to at best form 2 instance groups and really only enough good/serious players for one. Rolled an Assassin..got myself hooked up with one of the better raid forces on my server with one of the best raid leaders out there and have since been focusing on being the best raid Assassin I can possibly be. Its the class I focus on. In playing the Assassin I have seen exactly what the strengths and weaknesses of the various fighters are....with players that are good at their respective class. There simply is no comparison for 99% of the content out there...raid or otherwise.......SK/Pally win hands down in all factors of being tanks....DPS, Aggro and taking them hits.Do we use a Guardian as Raid MT.......yes........but to be honest its only because of loyalty and his history.........everyone knows it ...including him i bet.........Which is probably why we really only see him log on for raids anymore.Can all fighters get the job done?....yes no doubt about it.............is it harder, longer and more frustrating with a Guard than a SK?.......yes.Thats the gist of what I still perceive as a serious inbalance amongst the fighter types.....there simply is no benefit whatsoever is picking a Guardian over any other tank class for the vast majority of the games content.EVen now when I do play my Guardian who only has whatever unwanted gear has dropped in our raids...........I only do so in a 4x2 duo-boxed group where I control both the tank and the DPS....and therefor the aggro. Could I tank for regular groups.....yep.......could I MT most of the games instances......yep...........would it be fun or even challenging...NO.....it would be a lesson in frustration for both me and whoever was in the group.DO I think SOE cares or even aknowledges this? not at all. I will continue to focus on playing my Assassin.....its fun....people want it...it contributes and excels at what it is suppose to provide the raid or group.

ecidemon

06-11-2010, 10:00 AM

<h4>I dunno,, seems to me that the threat is not that much different between me (Alisiadragon, Guardian) and our SK</h4>Keep in mind in this encounter I have swapped to my Noxious 3 piece jewelry set dropping my crits down to 77%<h4></h4><h4>Perah'Celsis' Abominable Laboratory - [21] 04:02:47 | Ernax Heridion - [04:31] 04:10:44 | Alisiadragon | Threat (Out)</h4><table cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" width="100%"><tbody><tr><th>Type</th><th>Damage</th><th>Ext DPS</th><th>Average</th><th>Min Hit</th><th>Max Hit</th><th>Resist</th><th>Hits</th><th>Crit %</th><th>Swings</th><th>To Hit %</th></tr><tr><td>All</td><td>911 411</td><td>3 363.14</td><td>2 430.43</td><td>611</td><td>15 632</td><td>All</td><td>375</td><td>71%</td><td>379</td><td>98.94</td></tr><tr><td>Holding the Line</td><td>205 757</td><td>759.25</td><td>2 365.02</td><td>1 526</td><td>2 871</td><td>Increase</td><td>87</td><td>71%</td><td>87</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Inflaming Presence</td><td>143 895</td><td>530.98</td><td>985.58</td><td>611</td><td>1 151</td><td>Increase</td><td>146</td><td>79%</td><td>146</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Sentinel Strike</td><td>110 769</td><td>408.74</td><td>2 914.97</td><td>1 226</td><td>8 239</td><td>Increase</td><td>38</td><td>79%</td><td>38</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Gladiator's Strike</td><td>102 199</td><td>377.12</td><td>12 774.88</td><td>9 071</td><td>15 632</td><td>Increase</td><td>8</td><td>88%</td><td>8</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Provoke VIII</td><td>95 743</td><td>353.30</td><td>5 039.11</td><td>3 297</td><td>6 050</td><td>Increase</td><td>19</td><td>74%</td><td>19</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Aggressive Nature</td><td>87 600</td><td>323.25</td><td>3 128.57</td><td>2 215</td><td>3 897</td><td>Increase</td><td>28</td><td>61%</td><td>28</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Undeniable Malice</td><td>62 675</td><td>231.27</td><td>2 507.00</td><td>2 507</td><td>2 507</td><td>Increase</td><td>25</td><td>0%</td><td>25</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Taunting Blow VIII</td><td>54 361</td><td>200.59</td><td>5 436.10</td><td>3 194</td><td>6 153</td><td>Increase</td><td>10</td><td>90%</td><td>10</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Shout VII</td><td>40 032</td><td>147.72</td><td>4 003.20</td><td>2 314</td><td>4 648</td><td>Increase</td><td>10</td><td>80%</td><td>10</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Reinforcement</td><td>8 380</td><td>30.92</td><td>2 095.00</td><td>2 095</td><td>2 095</td><td>Increase</td><td>4</td><td>100%</td><td>8</td><td>50.00</td></tr></tbody></table><h4></h4><h4>And the SK's threat parse.</h4><h4>Perah'Celsis' Abominable Laboratory - [21] 04:02:47 | Ernax Heridion - [04:31] 04:10:44 | Theritt | Threat (Out)</h4><table cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" width="100%"><tbody><tr><th>Type</th><th>Damage</th><th>Ext DPS</th><th>Average</th><th>Min Hit</th><th>Max Hit</th><th>Resist</th><th>Hits</th><th>Crit %</th><th>Swings</th><th>To Hit %</th></tr><tr><td>All</td><td>1 009 353</td><td>3 724.55</td><td>4 086.45</td><td>496</td><td>16 042</td><td>All</td><td>247</td><td>95%</td><td>249</td><td>99.20</td></tr><tr><td>Insidious Whisper VIII</td><td>293 734</td><td>1 083.89</td><td>3 916.45</td><td>1 768</td><td>9 472</td><td>Increase</td><td>75</td><td>100%</td><td>75</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Shadowknight's Furor</td><td>221 031</td><td>815.61</td><td>5 140.26</td><td>4 226</td><td>6 284</td><td>Increase</td><td>43</td><td>100%</td><td>43</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Cavalier's Cry</td><td>172 323</td><td>635.88</td><td>7 832.86</td><td>7 148</td><td>8 562</td><td>Increase</td><td>22</td><td>100%</td><td>22</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Hateful Slam VII</td><td>112 191</td><td>413.99</td><td>3 032.19</td><td>2 193</td><td>6 125</td><td>Increase</td><td>37</td><td>100%</td><td>37</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Blasphemy VII</td><td>75 375</td><td>278.14</td><td>7 537.50</td><td>7 038</td><td>8 274</td><td>Increase</td><td>10</td><td>100%</td><td>10</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Grave Sacrament VI</td><td>59 514</td><td>219.61</td><td>14 878.50</td><td>13 952</td><td>16 042</td><td>Increase</td><td>4</td><td>100%</td><td>5</td><td>80.00</td></tr><tr><td>Undeniable Malice</td><td>32 799</td><td>121.03</td><td>2 523.00</td><td>2 523</td><td>2 523</td><td>Increase</td><td>13</td><td>0%</td><td>13</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Inflaming Presence</td><td>27 305</td><td>100.76</td><td>975.18</td><td>926</td><td>1 061</td><td>Increase</td><td>28</td><td>100%</td><td>28</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Caress Feedback</td><td>6 639</td><td>24.50</td><td>510.69</td><td>496</td><td>550</td><td>Increase</td><td>13</td><td>100%</td><td>13</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Hateful Respite</td><td>5 637</td><td>20.80</td><td>5 637.00</td><td>5 637</td><td>5 637</td><td>Increase</td><td>1</td><td>100%</td><td>1</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Dust Storm</td><td>2 805</td><td>10.35</td><td>2 805.00</td><td>2 805</td><td>2 805</td><td>Increase</td><td>1</td><td>100%</td><td>1</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Touch of Death</td><td>0</td><td>0.00</td><td>NaN</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>Increase</td><td>0</td><td>NaN</td><td>1</td><td>0.00</td></tr></tbody></table><h4>----------</h4>In this encounter I am the MT, and the SK is the OT, so I also have some assasin hate xfer and the usual support buffsI did not lose agro to the sk.As it is now with Sentinels Fate expansion I am very happy with my guardian. Sure a little bit more DPS would be nice but my biggest complaint is that the one blue aoe we have is a bit too limited (max aoe targets 8, and effect radious is 5m)I always went with the assumption that Holding the Line was bad and broken,, but in fact its my biggest threat contributor with the added Aggressive NatureIm still far from being fully geard out still using 4 armor pieces of TSO t3 and 3 SF fabled pieces. So the way I see it things will just become easier as I get more and better gear <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />

Wasuna

06-11-2010, 11:10 AM

At least half of your TPS is generated through being hit. HTL... etc. What happens when the SK does 40K DPS and rips off you with dps/agro. How are you suppose to get it back on you then? Just becasue the SK was actually watching his hate bubble and being nice doesn't prove a point. You didn't lose agro becasue he didn't want to take it.You didn't post the DPS for that fight. I guarantee you that if the SK was put in front of the mob where you were that he could tank it just as well (assuming equal gear), do more DPS and blow you away on TPS. I never said Guardians couldn't tank. I have said that nobody would ever want them to once they see the abilities that SK's have.

BChizzle

06-11-2010, 12:19 PM

Basically you posted a TPS parse where an SK is doing more then you, he probably was doing more then you DPS wise as well, you basically are proving everyones point except for your own.

steelbadger

06-11-2010, 12:43 PM

You realise that you've shown a threat parse where you, the MT (and thus prioritising threat generation), produced less threat per second than a non tanking SK (An SK not prioritising threat generation)?And yes, you didn't show DPS.Perah'Celsis' Abominable Laboratory - [25] 19:36:47 | Ernax Heridion - [02:08] (17/05/2010) 19:42:28 | Squitch | Outgoing Damage<h4>Perah'Celsis' Abominable Laboratory - [25] 19:36:47 | Ernax Heridion - [02:08] (17/05/2010) 19:42:28 | Squitch | Outgoing Damage</h4><table cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" width="100%"><tbody><tr><th>Type</th><th>Damage</th><th>Ext DPS </th><th>Hits</th><th>Crit %</th><th>Swings</th><th>To Hit %</th></tr><tr><td>All</td><td>2385657</td><td>18637.95</td><td>716</td><td>88%</td><td>767</td><td>93.35</td></tr><tr><td>slash</td><td>1135117</td><td>8868.10</td><td>163</td><td>100%</td><td>201</td><td>81.09</td></tr><tr><td>Peace of Mind</td><td>115715</td><td>904.02</td><td>44</td><td>100%</td><td>44</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Chilling Vengeance</td><td>114698</td><td>896.08</td><td>10</td><td>100%</td><td>10</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Stampede</td><td>114048</td><td>891.00</td><td>23</td><td>100%</td><td>23</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Fanatical Devotion</td><td>101271</td><td>791.18</td><td>83</td><td>100%</td><td>83</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Blade Chime</td><td>96206</td><td>751.61</td><td>84</td><td>100%</td><td>84</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Undeniable Malice</td><td>81862</td><td>639.55</td><td>61</td><td>0%</td><td>62</td><td>98.39</td></tr><tr><td>Crypt's Revenge</td><td>76976</td><td>601.38</td><td>27</td><td>100%</td><td>27</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Sentinel Strike</td><td>56487</td><td>441.30</td><td>18</td><td>100%</td><td>18</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Lay Waste</td><td>39156</td><td>305.91</td><td>5</td><td>100%</td><td>5</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Overpower</td><td>38622</td><td>301.73</td><td>11</td><td>100%</td><td>11</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Gut Kick</td><td>38420</td><td>300.16</td><td>10</td><td>100%</td><td>11</td><td>90.91</td></tr><tr><td>Sever</td><td>35745</td><td>279.26</td><td>36</td><td>100%</td><td>36</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Ruin</td><td>33780</td><td>263.91</td><td>25</td><td>100%</td><td>25</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Torrent</td><td>33526</td><td>261.92</td><td>13</td><td>0%</td><td>14</td><td>92.86</td></tr><tr><td>Precise Strike</td><td>29426</td><td>229.89</td><td>5</td><td>100%</td><td>5</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Toxic Tempest</td><td>28692</td><td>224.16</td><td>12</td><td>0%</td><td>14</td><td>85.71</td></tr><tr><td>Nihilistics</td><td>28296</td><td>221.06</td><td>32</td><td>100%</td><td>33</td><td>96.97</td></tr><tr><td>Wrath of the Warrior</td><td>26346</td><td>205.83</td><td>9</td><td>100%</td><td>9</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Decimate</td><td>20744</td><td>162.06</td><td>3</td><td>100%</td><td>3</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Taunting Blow</td><td>20170</td><td>157.58</td><td>9</td><td>100%</td><td>10</td><td>90.00</td></tr><tr><td>Provoke</td><td>19966</td><td>155.98</td><td>7</td><td>100%</td><td>8</td><td>87.50</td></tr><tr><td>Slam</td><td>19568</td><td>152.88</td><td>2</td><td>100%</td><td>3</td><td>66.67</td></tr><tr><td>Retaliate</td><td>19559</td><td>152.80</td><td>3</td><td>100%</td><td>3</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Shout</td><td>17125</td><td>133.79</td><td>6</td><td>100%</td><td>6</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Concussion</td><td>16812</td><td>131.34</td><td>5</td><td>100%</td><td>5</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Strike of Faith</td><td>13192</td><td>103.06</td><td>5</td><td>100%</td><td>5</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Acceleration Strike</td><td>11270</td><td>88.05</td><td>4</td><td>100%</td><td>5</td><td>80.00</td></tr><tr><td>Precise Note</td><td>2862</td><td>22.36</td><td>1</td><td>100%</td><td>1</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Holding the Line</td><td>0</td><td>0.00</td><td>0</td><td>NaN</td><td>1</td><td>0.00</td></tr><tr><td>crush</td><td>0</td><td>0.00</td><td>0</td><td>NaN</td><td>2</td><td>0.00</td></tr></tbody></table>Perah'Celsis' Abominable Laboratory - [25] 19:36:47 | Ernax Heridion - [02:08] (17/05/2010) 19:42:28 | Squitch | Threat (Out)<h4>Perah'Celsis' Abominable Laboratory - [25] 19:36:47 | Ernax Heridion - [02:08] (17/05/2010) 19:42:28 | Squitch | Threat (Out)</h4><table cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" width="100%"><tbody><tr><th>Type</th><th>Damage</th><th>Ext DPS </th><th>Hits</th><th>Crit %</th><th>Swings</th><th>To Hit %</th></tr><tr><td>All</td><td>753412</td><td>5886.03</td><td>175</td><td>65%</td><td>175</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Insight (Squitch)</td><td>195661</td><td>1528.60</td><td>28</td><td>100%</td><td>28</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Holding the Line (Squitch)</td><td>176040</td><td>1375.31</td><td>46</td><td>100%</td><td>46</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Undeniable Malice (Squitch)</td><td>151280</td><td>1181.88</td><td>61</td><td>0%</td><td>61</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Sentinel Strike (Squitch)</td><td>74859</td><td>584.84</td><td>18</td><td>100%</td><td>18</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Taunting Blow VIII (Squitch)</td><td>67336</td><td>526.06</td><td>9</td><td>100%</td><td>9</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Provoke VIII (Squitch)</td><td>53913</td><td>421.20</td><td>7</td><td>100%</td><td>7</td><td>100.00</td></tr><tr><td>Shout VII (Squitch)</td><td>34323</td><td>268.15</td><td>6</td><td>100%</td><td>6</td><td>100.00</td></tr></tbody></table>+ 8000 threat per second from transfers.Total of 32523 aggro per second, threat gen is 18% of my overall aggro generation in this fight. Threat as a whole is not a good place to attempt to balance from as it is a small proportion of the overall. DPS is still the king of aggro control, and in that I reckon the SK has you beaten (should have you beaten).That said; I'm also happy with my aggro generation. I'm not happy with other tanks encroaching on my survivability though, I'll happily leave their DPS alone if they leave my survivability alone.

Wasuna

06-11-2010, 01:59 PM

Most people that create a Guardian would be happy just to have the ability to keep agro and survive better than other tanks. It's what the class was designed for so that's what Guardians want.To bad there are 5 other fighters that have been promised over and over that they can tank just as good as a Guardian. Based on those promises, they also need the same basic survivability as a Guardian. If they didn't have it then they couldn't tank. If they didn't have basically the same survivability they would NEVER be chose as the MT. Therefore they have it.The problem, and the point of all these dozens of threads is that Guardins have no acceptable identity in EQ2 and due to that, have no path to tweeks and fixes to get us to a level where we are suppose to be based upon the class identity. How can we be given anything to get us to where we should be when what we should be WILL NOT BE ALLOWED.It's easy to up DPS for crusaders to make them viable. It's easy to up mitigation for brawlers so they are also viable. Is it easy to up mitigation or survivability for Guardians to make them viable? That is what a Guardian is suppose to offer isn't it? I can hear the screaming and yelling now..Ok, if you got my survivablity, even in different forums, then I want your DPS and TPS. Pretty simple. I didn't create my Guardian for DPS but if that is the only way SoE can fix the crap soup they made then do it.

ecidemon

06-11-2010, 06:14 PM

Well like i said in my post there with the threat parse, with the nox jewelry my crits are not 100%, but the SK's wereand yes, he did dps higher then me of course.Looking at the total ammount of threat i did there vs him, and me having some 23% less crits then him,, i'd say our threat generation is about the same.<h4>Perah'Celsis' Abominable Laboratory - [21] 04:02:47 | Ernax Heridion - [04:31] 04:10:44 | Alisiadragon | Outgoing Damage</h4><table cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" width="100%"><tbody><tr><th>Type</th><th>Damage</th><th>Ext DPS</th><th>Average</th><th>Min Hit</th><th>Max Hit</th><th>Resist</th><th>Hits</th><th>Crit %</th><th>Swings</th><th>To Hit %</th></tr><tr><td>All</td><td>2 108 823</td><td>7 781.64</td><td>2 771.12</td><td>235</td><td>10 979</td><td>All</td><td>761</td><td>73%</td><td>856</td><td>88.90</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr></tbody></table>--------<h4>Perah'Celsis' Abominable Laboratory - [21] 04:02:47 | Ernax Heridion - [04:31] 04:10:44 | Theritt | Outgoing Damage</h4><table cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" width="100%"><tbody><tr><th>Type</th><th>Damage</th><th>Ext DPS</th><th>Average</th><th>Min Hit</th><th>Max Hit</th><th>Resist</th><th>Hits</th><th>Crit %</th><th>Swings</th><th>To Hit %</th></tr><tr><td>All</td><td>2 225 752</td><td>8 213.11</td><td>2 210.28</td><td>174</td><td>48 666</td><td>All</td><td>1 007</td><td>92%</td><td>1 059</td><td>95.09</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr></tbody></table>--------Our gear is fairly similar with me having just a couple more fabled SF pieces, but no extra hate procs he does not also have. I was in defensive stance, group moderate off, and normal moderate on the dirge, got hate transfer from assassin and have the coercers buffs so hate gain was capped.The OT group had a dirge, and the sk also has a few hate gain adorns. Dunno if he was in defense stance or notI fully expect that when we are both in the best of the best endgame raid gear,, the extra guardian survivability won't be as important to us anymore but for now when we are still progressing and climbing the ladder I am easier to keep alive and it's just more stable when Im the MT.Bottom line is, I did ok in TSO when we were at an even greater disadvantage over the SK's and I had problems only when grouping with people in far better gear then me. I tanked all the heroic content but the third guk zone. That one i just left for the better aoe tanks :pDoing Kurns tower without a templar was always a bit of a pain, but we always got it doneNow days i don't have to roll with both a dirge and a coercer anymore when doing heroic content and this gives me more options and group spots <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />All i'd want is for the blue aoe I have to have better range and to hit more targets.

Carthr

06-12-2010, 11:45 AM

Baby Jesus is now crying

Baldrian

06-12-2010, 03:10 PM

lol i love u guys <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />im maintank and im happy with my class.i have absolutly no problem to keep aggro with the right setup (yes we guards need the whole hatesetup.but who cares).and if another tank grab aggro he want it,so he can have it.and if he dont want it anymore and he hand it over to me i have a utility to give it back to him until hes down...oh im sorry.was that mean?lol yes i have my fun on raids most of the time.and trust me,ppl are able to learn...if they die a few times by ripping aggro in offstance they will stop it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />now to the point:WE ARE STILL THE MOST DEFENSIVE CLASS!noone can beat us on max mitigation (not sure about palastbh) but no other tankclass is able to hit cap on mitigation (~17-18k).gratz guards...noone has more surviveabilitystuff then we have (ToS,LMS,DR,block,sentinals sphere< even if its some kind of suicide in some situations,unyielding will)compared to all other tankclasses our hategain is crap...TRUE...but tbh its still enuf to keep aggro against equal gear DDS in raid and heroic stuff.so we are fine.dont care about other tankclasses.my OTs noticed so far that they arent able to push dps AND stand like me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> (and for the hate im still missing some t3 pieces holy crap) ok enuf rage for one post lolbtw im usually running with half off gear and half def.wearing a shield instead of dual wield makes u stable enuf to tank the moderate to harder stuff.but i need to agree with some point written above.we could use some love again.on easy stuff its just a waste to have a guard in the raid because our dps is still too low compared to all other tanks,our group/raidbuffs are worthless.but on the other side it wouldnt be that funny anymore being as op as the crusaders are (whoelse is able to tank stuff being afk the whole time lol).i love to work on raids instead of just pressing some buttons and being happy like others are <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />.if u think u need to disaggre start l2p

Landiin

06-12-2010, 06:25 PM

I hear they are passing out chromosome in a town near you...

Rahatmattata

06-13-2010, 05:05 AM

oops...

Rahatmattata

06-13-2010, 05:10 AM

<cite>Alisiadragon@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>and yes, he did dps higher then me of course.</blockquote>How did you manage to even tank if the shadowknight was doing more TPS & DPS than you? Wouldn't that mean the SK has aggro and thus tanking? Either that or his aggro was spiking extremely high, but settling down to a lower level than yours for the most part.Edit - Oh yea, hate transfer.

Rahatmattata

06-13-2010, 05:17 AM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most people that create a Guardian would be happy just to have the ability to keep agro and survive better than other tanks. It's what the class was designed for so that's what Guardians want.To bad there are 5 other fighters that have been promised over and over that they can tank just as good as a Guardian. Based on those promises, they also need the same basic survivability as a Guardian. If they didn't have it then they couldn't tank. If they didn't have basically the same survivability they would NEVER be chose as the MT. Therefore they have it.The problem, and the point of all these dozens of threads is that Guardins have no acceptable identity in EQ2 and due to that, have no path to tweeks and fixes to get us to a level where we are suppose to be based upon the class identity. How can we be given anything to get us to where we should be when what we should be WILL NOT BE ALLOWED.It's easy to up DPS for crusaders to make them viable. It's easy to up mitigation for brawlers so they are also viable. Is it easy to up mitigation or survivability for Guardians to make them viable? That is what a Guardian is suppose to offer isn't it? I can hear the screaming and yelling now..Ok, if you got my survivablity, even in different forums, then I want your DPS and TPS. Pretty simple. I didn't create my Guardian for DPS but if that is the only way SoE can fix the crap soup they made then do it.</blockquote>They could increase guardian survivability and leave the crappy threat generation. This would mean you could use a beast of a tank hard as hell to kill, but people have to watch their aggro. But, the majority of players seem to feel throttling your dps (or at least timing burst damage with reinforcement) and not ripping aggro to be extremely un-fun.

Macross_JR

06-13-2010, 11:37 AM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most people that create a Guardian would be happy just to have the ability to keep agro and survive better than other tanks. It's what the class was designed for so that's what Guardians want.To bad there are 5 other fighters that have been promised over and over that they can tank just as good as a Guardian. Based on those promises, they also need the same basic survivability as a Guardian. If they didn't have it then they couldn't tank. If they didn't have basically the same survivability they would NEVER be chose as the MT. Therefore they have it.The problem, and the point of all these dozens of threads is that Guardins have no acceptable identity in EQ2 and due to that, have no path to tweeks and fixes to get us to a level where we are suppose to be based upon the class identity. How can we be given anything to get us to where we should be when what we should be WILL NOT BE ALLOWED.It's easy to up DPS for crusaders to make them viable. It's easy to up mitigation for brawlers so they are also viable. Is it easy to up mitigation or survivability for Guardians to make them viable? That is what a Guardian is suppose to offer isn't it? I can hear the screaming and yelling now..Ok, if you got my survivablity, even in different forums, then I want your DPS and TPS. Pretty simple. I didn't create my Guardian for DPS but if that is the only way SoE can fix the crap soup they made then do it.</blockquote>They could increase guardian survivability and leave the crappy threat generation. This would mean you could use a beast of a tank hard as hell to kill, but people have to watch their aggro. But, the majority of players seem to feel throttling your dps (or at least timing burst damage with reinforcement) and not ripping aggro to be extremely un-fun.</blockquote>What would be the point of upping survivability if it's not needed? There would be no point. Just like most of the Guardian short term buffs are now. There is nothing in this game at the moment that you have to have a guardian tanking it. So why bring a guardian that has less dps, less threat generation, and about the same survivability(because the short terms don't add much due to the curve) then the other tanks?

Rahatmattata

06-13-2010, 02:38 PM

SOE would have to make mobs that hit hard.

Wasuna

06-15-2010, 12:46 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>They could increase guardian survivability and leave the crappy threat generation. This would mean you could use a beast of a tank hard as hell to kill, but people have to watch their aggro. But, the majority of players seem to feel throttling your dps (or at least timing burst damage with reinforcement) and not ripping aggro to be extremely un-fun.</blockquote>That used to be what Guardians were. Great tanks that could take a beating and keep on ticking but with horrible DPS and agro. Unfortunatly raiders found ways to deal with the terrible threat. Dirges, Coercers, Hate Transfer, troubadors in high damage groups.. etc. Therefore the most survivable tank got the role of MT... Period.All the other fighters complained that Survivability was the basis for tank choice. Through the next few expansions the survivability of the other fighters (plates first then brawlers in SF) was raised to the level of Guardians. If this was not the case then no other class but a Guardian would be a raid tank.The problem we have is nothing was taken away from the other classes when their survivability weas increased. In the case of crusaders, they were even given more. Now we have all fighters with their base identity in tact and with the equal ability to tank just as well as a Guardian and the Guardian having nothing. The enite concept of the Guardian is to tank... nothing else, just tank. Every other fighter has an identity, concept or class direction. Guardians have nothing but the ability to do ONE thing as well as all other fighters.

Baldrian

06-15-2010, 02:45 PM

We got noticed? NO!respecced on friday and forgot the proc.checked parse for it on sundays raid and really,it wasnt on.ok a few days before i still thought,the reposte immun is really useful and makes our mythbuff at least good...compared to the other ones...then i read the parses...toxx reposted 8 hit at all (9 minute fight) and the max hit was less then 2k.GREAT! i blocked 2 out of 8 hits.so all reposts together did less then 1 usual melee hit.and way less then her broken arcane aoe...so the repost immune is crap...what about the rest?immunity proc for CC effects...nice...but its a proc...and remember how often is it up when u really need it?yes...uselessmeleedamage reduce proc and damage?i finally procs very often and should be up most of the time.and the proc does pretty good dps as well.like 130 for me in palace!wtb mobs with 10k+ repostehits to pwn those wannabe tanks or at least a [Removed for Content] of our myth proc,thanks

MurFalad

06-23-2010, 09:19 PM

<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>And the dungeon encounter designers are still progressing along the More challenge=More Mobs gameplay model which only has space for the crusader class of tanks.I fully expect that in the next expansion we'll either be a clown class for tanking, or more likely buffed up so that we are indistinquishable to a crusader class, neither sounds interesting to me.</blockquote>Could you please do me a favor and take your whining somewhere else? It sure as hell isn't helping anyone.If you think guardians have issues, then post facts supported by solid data, not claims that you pass off as self-evident truth.</blockquote>Backed up by facts? Ok here is a fact, name one group of mobs in a dungeon which has an interesting ability that we need to counter. Seriously I have not seen it, that means all the mobs are the same, so the challenge now is just to handle more, that normally means handling multiple groups, and that's what the crusader class excels at (as it should do).The gnolls in Antonica have a more diverse set of abilities then the mobs I've seen in the dungeons so far, I think that is fair criticism.<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Today, having geared up a bit (I still don't have even a single hard-mode raid drop), I'm pulling whole rooms and holding aggro without any issue vs equivalently equipped damage dealers. I usually have either a dirge or a coercer, but rarely both, and I normally don't have any hate-transferring scouts.No, I'm not decked out in newbie gear, but then again, only three of the items I'm wearing can't be acquired via instance groups or pickup raids, and the most important ones (belt, wrist, and shield) can either be bought off a Moonfield Hamlet vendor via marks, and respectively, acquired off an easy RoH raid mob that could be single-grouped today (i.e., Trakanon).</blockquote>Gear is nothing at all to do with it, I did not mention gear at all.But as an aside I do like the bit about gear being easy to get, non-hard mode raid? Sorry, I just don't raid, for your information though the non raider legendary gear is fine so far to approach the content in the way it probably was intented (ie no pulling a whole room at a time), its not about being able to conquer the content with the gear we have, its just that we're not wanted to conquer said content when there is another class that can do it much easier.That's the problem with the content though, a lack of interesting fights all too often and instead just multiple groups of adds to grab hold of, without blue aoe abilities that means selecting each and every group and hoping they hit me a few times to build up some aggro. The hoping bit means that the aggro really isn't 100% in my control if I try to pull a room.That's not a problem though as I didn't pick an AOE tank and it is something the crusader class should excel in, I'm a strong believer that all the classes should have something good that they do, but when all the challenges are AOE it is a problem.So that means the default tactic is to round them up and AOE them down, that always favours a AOE tank, and worse still isn't very interesting gameplay. I'd much prefer less trash in dungeons, but it actually requiring some thought.<cite>Karnos@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let me reiterate:Stop spouting unfounded claims and instead back them up with solid data (AA specs, gear lists, and above all, parses), because right now, you sound just like yet another guardian with crusader DPS envy.</blockquote>Please stick your parse up where the sun doesn't shine, and your forum etiquette needs some work too. If I wanted to be a crusader I'd re-roll to one so its not envy, I think I made it clear I had no interest in doing so in my post (no offense to players of crusaders, they're a valid class that works, personally I think SK's do too much damage for their survivability, but ultimately the devs decide what happens so what I think really doesn't matter).The basic game design was wrong from day one, you cannot have more survivability=better chance of success and then have one class (Guardian) with better survivability then all the others. That just left every class that wasn't a guardian unwanted if the role involved getting hit hard, but by fixing that I'm not really sure what the guardian is supposed to offer that other classes don't. Crusaders have the AOE tank abilities, so the Guardians should have a useful niche as well, along with Monks which also if they are tanks should have something they are good at, apart from a group feign death I'm stumped there as to where they excel currently in the tanking game.That's good game design to allow a lot of different play styles to all work, more choice of play styles means more players enjoying EQ2 and is good news for the long term health of the game.