Endless quiver AA for Rangers [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

FearDiadh

05-28-2010, 09:41 AM

<cite>MurFalad wrote:</cite><blockquote>The big problem to an endless quiver that I see is that if implemented it hits tradeskillers hard, right now if in a pinch you can at least make some makeshift arrows.For me it would be just another RP/real world feature that goes from the game if they did remove the need for arrows, so I'm happy to load up (with a ridiculous number of arrows <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> ) on my Ranger.</blockquote>Do you even play a ranger?I am just curious, because makeshift arrows does not make arrows anymore. It was changed to a temporary proc off ranged attacks at the beginning of Sentinel's Fate. It was a nice improvement to a combat art that had been made useless several years ago. At level 90 with the enervated/mythical and aa points in arrow tear I can get by with around 200 arrows an hour. This is a huge improvement over the half a quiver I used to use in that time, but still accounts for a nice chunk of change each day in arrows. I do not think that one class should be supporting a tradeskill by itself. Give woodworkers another way to make money, and give rangers a break.

CrazyMoogle

05-28-2010, 12:35 PM

This has been bad design since the beginning. No other class has to worry or spend as much money on reagents as Rangers do. If a class has to spend more than any other just to operate then it should be the top of the DPS parse.(And no, I don't play a ranger and have never had one)

lollipop

05-28-2010, 02:05 PM

while we are at it should make endless posion so swash brigs and asassins dont need to buy them.

Sydares

05-28-2010, 02:25 PM

<cite>lollipop wrote:</cite><blockquote>while we are at it should make endless posion so swash brigs and asassins dont need to buy them.</blockquote>Oh look, it's a strawman argument that assumes Rangers don't go through poisons. I'll play too!Let's make every single melee autoattack randomly subtract 8-20 silver from your bag to cover the costs of the more extensive damage your weapon takes during combat!

Hene

05-28-2010, 02:28 PM

<cite>Amyas wrote:</cite><blockquote>>_They have completely ignored all 5 threads on the fury/mystic ninja nerf too <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />So they obviously don't care about even fixing issues they have created recently.

Magnethjelmen2

05-28-2010, 03:43 PM

<cite>lollipop wrote:</cite><blockquote>while we are at it should make endless posion so swash brigs and asassins dont need to buy them.</blockquote>/sighDont be stupid please. This has nothing to do with poisons. Rangers has to buy poisions too you know right? But furthermore we have to buy arrows. And on top up that to get best dps we need special raid crafted arrows, that comes from raid mobs, or TS instances, which is even more lame.And btw, there would still be a market for arrows. Dont forget that bards, assassin, and fighters in most cases uses bows, and still will be in need of arrows. Ofc, it will not be as big. But it is still stupid that rangers are the only class getting milked from money because they have to keep some woodworkers income alive.Rangers got way bigger problems that this tho.

Seiffil

05-28-2010, 03:45 PM

<cite>lollipop wrote:</cite><blockquote>while we are at it should make endless posion so swash brigs and asassins dont need to buy them.</blockquote>Stop trolling. This isn't even comparable to the arrow cost for rangers. Both predator and both rogue classes have similar poison costs in the end. This isn't asked for because it hits all classes roughly about the same. The reason they won't give rangers endless quiver has been stated before previously anyways, woodworkers go up in arms over killing their ability to make any coin as a tradeskill class. I have my own woodworker, I can make my own arrows, though sometimes I may not have time to log it in to restock arrows for my ranger.When they went back and decided that when SF released that they would allow ammo within 20 levels of the bow to be used without hurting your dps, as opposed to the 10 level range during RoK and TSO, woodworkers got ticked off thinking that this decision would kill their ability to make a profit because rangers could use free arrows summoned by either of the Deathtoll bows. I can understand the cost of poisons, since for the MC poisons the dust costs more to acquire either by just getting the rares to make experts to obtain it, or buying it off the broker, but again this gets passed on to all classes that use poisons, and even MC potions. You can't tell me however, convince me that woodworkers charging 20g per 100 arrows is a fair price. I can easily go through 100-200 arrows per instance. More if I'm soloing, even more if I'm raiding. Per combine, if I were to buy all my materials for arrows on the broker, counting fuel costs it would probably cost 5-6g. So most woodworkers are making at least 3x over the cost of what it takes to make arrows. What other class has that same expense, at the same rate.

Helrazor

05-28-2010, 03:59 PM

Endless quiver was one of the AA's they considered the most overpowered in the original EQ game. When AA's started there were numerous questions about this - it was stated then (and I haven't heard anything changed) that there would NEVER be Endless Quiver in EQ2. Search around a bit in the Ranger forums...it's been asked for and denied over and over <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

FearDiadh

05-28-2010, 05:31 PM

Seiffil

05-29-2010, 05:44 AM

<cite>Helrazor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Endless quiver was one of the AA's they considered the most overpowered in the original EQ game. When AA's started there were numerous questions about this - it was stated then (and I haven't heard anything changed) that there would NEVER be Endless Quiver in EQ2. Search around a bit in the Ranger forums...it's been asked for and denied over and over <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>One of the bigger issues for Endless quiver in EQ1 was what went into making the arrows that the rangers used. I stopped playing EQ1 back in 2006, but I still recall most rangers having at least 4 - 5 distinct arrows they kept in their quiver to change whichever one should be applied. I know how many arrows my rogue could go through on raids when we were jousting out in EQ1, or other raids when we just weren't allowed to joust in due to resists for certain fights, and that was just with generally mage summoned arrows or maybe some basic crafted arrows. The cost to keep supplied on the better arrows that rangers used would probably be much higher to even the inflated cost of arrows that we spend in EQ2. Before endless quiver a lot of my ranger friends tended to keep their tolan's bracer around in case they needed to summon arrows, but at that point except when using their trueshot discipline most rangers tended to melee more then they used their bow.Will this happen, sadly, no you're probably right. Should it happen? Something along the lines should, as others have said, no other class has to pay 20s per auto attack. While they did throw us a bone a few years back keeping arrows from being consumed by range CA's, it's still not enough considering how many arrows a ranger can go through soloing, in instances, and especially raiding.Before anyone falls back on the concept that this potentially could kill the woodworker market for arrows, woodworkers still sell a significant amount of arrows to non rangers, so while it may cut their profits some, they'll still find people they can price gouge with their current prices.

Aldhissla

05-29-2010, 07:07 AM

Solution: Let WWs craft twice as many arrows per combine.Will cause arrows to be cheaper and reduce grind for WWs.

Seiffil

05-29-2010, 07:46 AM

<cite>Aldhissla wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solution: Let WWs craft twice as many arrows per combine.Will cause arrows to be cheaper and reduce grind for WWs.</blockquote>This has an even less likely chance of happening then Endless quiver, cause provisioners and alchemists would throw a fit unless they somehow got included.

Khurghan

05-29-2010, 08:32 AM

Really guys, the price of arrows on the broker (unless you want lower level ones) is so cheap it effectively costs me more to make my own than to just buy them (unless they've all run out and someone has put some on at a rediculous price).I have a woodworker who can make arrows for me and I never bother making my own arrows.

Aldhissla

05-29-2010, 08:58 AM

<cite>Seiffil@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aldhissla wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solution: Let WWs craft twice as many arrows per combine.Will cause arrows to be cheaper and reduce grind for WWs.</blockquote>This has an even less likely chance of happening then Endless quiver, cause provisioners and alchemists would throw a fit unless they somehow got included.</blockquote>And how do they even have a say in this?

Writer Cal

05-29-2010, 09:27 AM

Sure, when every other dps class is charged 10-20s per auto-attack or spell (for the casters), often ending up with 1-2p per evening before including the cost of poisons that other preds and rogues share (no biggie on that, really,) depending on how much fighting occurs, then it'll be all nice and even. Don't want to spend the cash? Then, level a crafter. Then, every other dps class gets to spend X amount of time crafting per auto-attack or spell cast.How about whetstones that are mandatory consumables for each melee auto-attack. No whetstones? Then no auto-attack, since that's how it works for ranged auto-attack. And runes that are mandatory consumables for each spell cast... Oh, wait, there's no chance in hell that this will happen. Not to mention, the assassins and sorcs are capable of producing more dps for free than that of a ranger paying a couple plat a night for their damage...if they know how to play their class.BTW, I have T9 woodworker (actually, she gained her last 3 levels alone from grinding T9 arrows for the ranger), and I see nothing wrong with cutting "profit" from one single class that gets to pay extra for less damage compared to other classes.

Lemilla

05-29-2010, 09:28 AM

True, most of the arrow cost on the broker is just how much it costs to make the arrows. And that means all those woodworkers aren't making money from selling those arrows anyway. So that can't be an excuse for making rangers pay so much for their autoattacks.

FearDiadh

05-29-2010, 11:13 AM

15s x 100 = 1500s = 15gYou are suggesting that it costs 15g per combine to make arrows? I don't have a woodworker, but I have an alchemist and jeweler. It does not cost 15g to make 10 regular poisons. You have a reduced fuel cost of 2 fuels on the combine. As for the materials, most people are using guild harvesters.It is not the end of the world to shell out a couple extra plat a day on arrows, but it isn't really fair either. I do not make a couple extra plat on raids. If bounty were passive like pickpocket for rogues I might. Then of course we would be the only poison scout not getting a few extra plat per raid, so it still wouldn't be fair.In order for it to be fair one of two things need to happen:1) Rangers get a way to not have to pay for good arrows.or2) Mages begin using components, priests begin consuming candles and holy water, and fighters and rogues begin using sharpening stones to keep their blades keen. If this happens though, you should allow all of these classes to take some AAs out of useful things and put them into some other AAs that will reduce their usage of these necessities a little bit. You might even take one of their enervated's current buffs and change it into a cost reduction... just to be fair to them.Life is not fair, so I'll live with it. It is, however, a stupid mechanic.

Seiffil

05-29-2010, 12:58 PM

<cite>Aldhissla wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Seiffil@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aldhissla wrote:</cite><blockquote>Solution: Let WWs craft twice as many arrows per combine.Will cause arrows to be cheaper and reduce grind for WWs.</blockquote>This has an even less likely chance of happening then Endless quiver, cause provisioners and alchemists would throw a fit unless they somehow got included.</blockquote>And how do they even have a say in this?</blockquote>They already complain because they can't create full stacks of whatever they're making in combine and are repeatedly asking for it. When considering usage I don't think they need to create full stacks like a woodworker does for arrows, but that argument gets lost.<cite>Khurghan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Really guys, the price of arrows on the broker (unless you want lower level ones) is so cheap it effectively costs me more to make my own than to just buy them (unless they've all run out and someone has put some on at a rediculous price).I have a woodworker who can make arrows for me and I never bother making my own arrows.</blockquote>The problem with your argument is that on most servers this isn't the case. If I'm forced to pay 20g per 100 arrows, 3g and some change is for the fuel, the remaining 16-17g is to cover cost of materials and the only one of which generally over 1g in price are the bamboo shoots. Maybe on your server they're using sensible prices, the majority of servers they're not though. Unfortunately when part of the problem is server economy, it's hard to get some people to notice where one problem is since they may not see it on their server, though the base problem is that No other class has to pay as much to do dps on a regular basis. Poisons, and temp adorns don't count since they're used across several classes at roughly similar costs to each class.

glowsintheda

05-29-2010, 02:57 PM

WW have totems if they want to make money, seriously there are some very nice ones out there, and even the lower tier ones can still be very useful.

Amyas

05-29-2010, 05:12 PM

Don't most woodworkers make house items to sell? The arrow useage in eq2 is the highist i have ever seen in any MMO. Alot of MMO's now adays are doing away with arrows because of the annoyance factor. As for all the Realism people, if you can pretend you are a elf you can pretend you are using "arrows" and making them during down time.

glowsintheda

05-29-2010, 05:29 PM

house items are all carpenter, not woodworker

Amyas

05-29-2010, 05:50 PM

Davngr1

05-29-2010, 05:53 PM

eq2 has a market to buy and sell goods and services. removing the need for it would in fact hurt the game, it makes sense leave it as it is. at least they fixed it so your CA's don't use ammo.

Axterix

05-29-2010, 06:23 PM

I wouldn't mind seeing weaponsmiths also gain access to the ranged ammo recipes. That would provide another source of ammo, which should theoritically increase supply and lower prices. It'd also provide something for weaponsmiths, who could really use it.Now, yeah, woodworkers might complain because arrows are wood, but then, they currently make throwing knives and those are not wood, typically all metal.Another possibility would be the equivelant of the priests' ability to summon food and drink. Free arrows, but crappy.

Guy De Alsace

05-29-2010, 06:40 PM

So Rangers have to pay to cause their DPS. Well, suck it up. I really hate this playing field that has to be so level that you have to put a spirit level on every single blade of grass.Dont like it? Reroll. I play a Ranger and accept its part of the class. I dont want to be a clone of another class I didnt want to play - which seems to be the intent of the broader player base. I want to play a class that is unique and different for better or worse.

Seiffil

05-29-2010, 07:42 PM

<cite>Axterix wrote:</cite><blockquote>Another possibility would be the equivelant of the priests' ability to summon food and drink. Free arrows, but crappy.</blockquote>They tried that with makeshift arrows, the only problem was the arrows were so inferior to crafted arrows and even vendor bought arrows it wasn't worth it to use except when leveling really.

Neiloch

05-29-2010, 08:24 PM

FYI it costs 3g12s to make a stack of T9 arrows, if you harvest what you need and buy the fuel.<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote>So Rangers have to pay to cause their DPS. Well, suck it up. I really hate this playing field that has to be so level that you have to put a spirit level on every single blade of grass.Dont like it? Reroll. I play a Ranger and accept its part of the class. I dont want to be a clone of another class I didnt want to play - which seems to be the intent of the broader player base. I want to play a class that is unique and different for better or worse.</blockquote>If you are really saying you would take a negative just so you can be unique, that's just dumb. Would you cut off your nose to spite your face too?Saying we would be like other classes if we didn't have to pay for auto attack is just ridiculous. The fact that some of our best performing CA's are melee, opposed to our ranged CA's being better than ALL our melee, does make us more like other scout classes though.Everything other scouts have to buy we have to buy too, plus we go through way more arrows than they do. So any argument from the stance other scouts have to pay for stuff too comes from ignorance. We do save some money on poisons with conservation but it doesn't make up for how much we spend on arrows.Summoned makeshift arrows were abysmal. Compared to other arrows in the same tier they were always the absolute worst arrows you could use. Even vendor bought ones were better.My main problem with it is we have to pay, and we aren't even on par with the other top DPS classes. Wouldn't be much a problem if we were. Same thing with the other mechanical faults we have like not using auto AE or flurry. If we were on par with DPS they would just be annoyances but since rangers are behind the problems are viewed as much worse.Every minor problem rangers have is going to be focused on and magnified, even blown out of proportion until we are balanced properly, or at least close to it.

glowsintheda

05-29-2010, 08:26 PM

<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote>So Rangers have to pay to cause their DPS. Well, suck it up. I really hate this playing field that has to be so level that you have to put a spirit level on every single blade of grass.Dont like it? Reroll. I play a Ranger and accept its part of the class. I dont want to be a clone of another class I didnt want to play - which seems to be the intent of the broader player base. I want to play a class that is unique and different for better or worse.</blockquote>I would have no problem paying for it if it was worth the price, but seeing as how rangers do less DPS then assassins and sorcs, offer less utility, and still have to pay to do it, well then it just isn't fair anymore. Personally I would rather see them keep us having to use arrows, but make it actually worthwhile IE we are equal if not slightly ahead of the other classes we are supposed to be competing against

Sydares

05-29-2010, 08:35 PM

kartikeya

05-29-2010, 08:43 PM

<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote>So Rangers have to pay to cause their DPS. Well, suck it up. I really hate this playing field that has to be so level that you have to put a spirit level on every single blade of grass.Dont like it? Reroll. I play a Ranger and accept its part of the class. I dont want to be a clone of another class I didnt want to play - which seems to be the intent of the broader player base. I want to play a class that is unique and different for better or worse.</blockquote>Since when does class balance mean that every class is the same? Those are two different things you're conflating there. Bottom line, ammo management does not have any place in an MMO, UNLESS it is something that every single class uses roughly equally, and therefore every single class bears the expense. That doesn't mean every single class is the same. Rangers not having to pay for arrows isn't changing anything the ranger does, or any flavor of the class. Please drop the ridiculous hyperbole.Having to pay for ammunition as your primary source of damage is unbalanced, whether you're paying 1c or 3pp. Having to pay for it when you are doing half the damage of other DPS classes is insult on top of injury. The end.

Shareana

05-29-2010, 10:43 PM

People play this game for many reasons.... Let's not bash any of them please <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Writer Cal

05-30-2010, 07:32 AM

I'm trying to remember which game it was, but my mind's drawing blank. Part of me wants to say LotRO, though it could be something else. But I'm remembering a game where ammo wasn't consumed but was a gear piece that went in the ammo slot. So you could loot (or craft) better ammo, but not have one single class rely on paying constantly to do their job when no other class has to do so. This would still give woodworkers something to craft and sell, but rangers wouldn't be paying a couple plat a night to do their job.Quivers wouldn't be needed then? Well, golly, how about opening up quivers (and possibly renaming them) to hold other crafted consumables? I'm sure everyone would love some extra slots for the stacks of potions, poisons, food, drink, temp adorns, tinkered consumables like FD clickies, etc...Another game has a lovely middle ground solution. All classes able to use ranged weapons except rangers use either vendor bought or crafted arrows/throwing stars. But rangers get their own special class arrow combines, using their own special class foraged components. These ranger class specific arrows are perfectly competitive or even a little better in some ways. These special class combines also create rather huge stacks (250 vs EQ2's 100), so it doesn't take ages to get the ammo needed for a week's worth of fighting. Crafters still make arrows for every other class in the game that can use arrows, and rangers, again, don't pay a couple plat a night to do their job. (Bonus points if you know this craptastic game that still somehow had some rather nice specific features.)Again, I say this having a woodworker myself. I know quite well how much cash woodworkers can bring in from rangers. I really don't care. There are plenty of other things to sell, like totems (or potential non-consumable arrow bundles were that to be implemented.) Those new T9 totems are nice and sell just fine.Also, as others have said, the cost in time or money from going through so many arrows per day wouldn't be such an issue if the resulting dps weren't lower than that of classes who get to do their jobs for free. As it is, it's just insulting. If a class paying a couple plat a night to do their job is so great for the game, then really, why not have every class pay a couple plat a night to do their job? Weaponsmiths could rake in the cash from all other melee classes with sharpening stones, and sages or tailors (medicine bags, anyone?) could make a profit off mages and priests. Just sayin'. Don't like that concept? Then why is it okay for rangers?

Odys

05-30-2010, 09:34 AM

Well let rangers summon arrows of moderate quality, they could be like 10% inferior to Woodworkers ones.

Noob1974

05-30-2010, 09:37 AM

You know whats funny...today a fabled throwing weapon, from the hole raidzone, was linked in the ranger channel that summones 99 fabled dagger every 5min, sooner with reuse, which have stats that are rivals the crafted spirit blessed arrows.Why is no WW compalining about not selling throwing weapons.......This game is so biased towards rangers...its not even funny anymore

Writer Cal

05-30-2010, 10:05 AM

Why must ranger summoned arrows be 10% less than the standard? Do other classes do 10% less if they pay nothing? No. They pay nothing and get to do full damage. Unless all other classes perform at 10% less than normal unles they pay for consumables, this is still not right. Why is this still acceptable for rangers but not every other class in the game?

Alenna

05-30-2010, 10:56 AM

<cite>Amyas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't most woodworkers make house items to sell? The arrow useage in eq2 is the highist i have ever seen in any MMO. Alot of MMO's now adays are doing away with arrows because of the annoyance factor. As for all the Realism people, if you can pretend you are a elf you can pretend you are using "arrows" and making them during down time.</blockquote>No Woodworkers don't make house Items that is Carpenters.

Alenna

05-30-2010, 10:58 AM

<cite>Axterix wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wouldn't mind seeing weaponsmiths also gain access to the ranged ammo recipes. That would provide another source of ammo, which should theoritically increase supply and lower prices. It'd also provide something for weaponsmiths, who could really use it.Now, yeah, woodworkers might complain because arrows are wood, but then, they currently make throwing knives and those are not wood, typically all metal.Another possibility would be the equivelant of the priests' ability to summon food and drink. Free arrows, but crappy.</blockquote>Weaponsmiths already make the throwing weapons that woodworkers make, axes, shuriken, and knives.

Alenna

05-30-2010, 11:02 AM

<cite>Daenee@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm trying to remember which game it was, but my mind's drawing blank. Part of me wants to say LotRO, though it could be something else. But I'm remembering a game where ammo wasn't consumed but was a gear piece that went in the ammo slot. So you could loot (or craft) better ammo, but not have one single class rely on paying constantly to do their job when no other class has to do so. This would still give woodworkers something to craft and sell, but rangers wouldn't be paying a couple plat a night to do their job.Quivers wouldn't be needed then? Well, golly, how about opening up quivers (and possibly renaming them) to hold other crafted consumables? I'm sure everyone would love some extra slots for the stacks of potions, poisons, food, drink, temp adorns, tinkered consumables like FD clickies, etc...Another game has a lovely middle ground solution. All classes able to use ranged weapons except rangers use either vendor bought or crafted arrows/throwing stars. But rangers get their own special class arrow combines, using their own special class foraged components. These ranger class specific arrows are perfectly competitive or even a little better in some ways. These special class combines also create rather huge stacks (250 vs EQ2's 100), so it doesn't take ages to get the ammo needed for a week's worth of fighting. Crafters still make arrows for every other class in the game that can use arrows, and rangers, again, don't pay a couple plat a night to do their job. (Bonus points if you know this craptastic game that still somehow had some rather nice specific features.)Again, I say this having a woodworker myself. I know quite well how much cash woodworkers can bring in from rangers. I really don't care. There are plenty of other things to sell, like totems (or potential non-consumable arrow bundles were that to be implemented.) Those new T9 totems are nice and sell just fine.Also, as others have said, the cost in time or money from going through so many arrows per day wouldn't be such an issue if the resulting dps weren't lower than that of classes who get to do their jobs for free. As it is, it's just insulting. If a class paying a couple plat a night to do their job is so great for the game, then really, why not have every class pay a couple plat a night to do their job? Weaponsmiths could rake in the cash from all other melee classes with sharpening stones, and sages or tailors (medicine bags, anyone?) could make a profit off mages and priests. Just sayin'. Don't like that concept? Then why is it okay for rangers?</blockquote>QFT.

Alenna

05-30-2010, 11:07 AM

<cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well let rangers summon arrows of moderate quality, they could be like 10% inferior to Woodworkers ones.</blockquote>been there done that am glad they changed makeshift arrow to a buff so that we coudl do even worse dps then the CRAPPY dps we have now. FIX OUR RANGED CAs and gives us RANGED AUTOATTACK and FLURRY. we are told they want us at range then Let us T1 dps at ranged instead of CRAPPY dps at melee.

Odys

05-30-2010, 05:19 PM

I m not against top arrows summoning, but then you will face WW anger. With summoned arrows almost as good as player made ones you will be able to do heroic and solo content with summoned arrows without too much loss in dps. For sure you will still be free to maximize your damage and pay or craft for it.For raids your guild woodworkers are supposed to cover you, like alchmist cover the potion use and so on.The advantage of my proposal is that it can be applied without dealing with woodworkers market, it may be not ideal but it can be done immediatly.

glowsintheda

05-30-2010, 06:29 PM

If they want to go the summoned arrows way, then they need to be the best available arrows, period. Seeing as they were unwilling to do this only a few months ago and instead made raid arrows and turned the old arrow summoning spell into a proc buff I doubt they will be willing to do it now. The fact that classes that use throwing have the option of obtaining ammo summoning items is just insulting when no such option exists for rangers. Again, if we have to pay for our basic DPS then we should be the best, bar none.

kartikeya

05-30-2010, 06:39 PM

<cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>I m not against top arrows summoning, but then you will face WW anger. With summoned arrows almost as good as player made ones you will be able to do heroic and solo content with summoned arrows without too much loss in dps. For sure you will still be free to maximize your damage and pay or craft for it.For raids your guild woodworkers are supposed to cover you, like alchmist cover the potion use and so on.The advantage of my proposal is that it can be applied without dealing with woodworkers market, it may be not ideal but it can be done immediatly.</blockquote>You know, some food for thought. Every time this comes up, in every thread I have read that's made about ranger arrow expenditures, I have never once seen a woodworker come in and be up in arms about the idea. Not. Once. On the contrary, I have seen a number of woodworkers outright state that they would not care, or would even welcome the change, because they do not actually make any real money from selling so many arrows (since usually arrows are sold at cost).Let me repeat that. Every thread I have ever read on this topic, which must be numbering in the hundreds by now, over the space of many years (this is a very common complaint), has never once had an actual woodworker show up and get [Removed for Content] about the idea of not having to supply rangers with hundreds and thousands of arrows a week.Can we please, until someone actually does show up and get angry about this, stop assuming that there will be a great thunderous rage from the woodworkers? We have a woodworker right in this thread repeatedly saying she wouldn't care if this change was made (granted, she also plays a ranger.)That said, I can tell you exactly what would happen if they gave us the ability to make crappy arrows again. No one would use them. Those that did use them would be barred from groups in favor of those that did. This is like saying that all scouts have an option not to use poisons. Sure, scouts can choose NOT to use poisons...but that's choosing to play your class at less than peak efficiency, and you can bet once someone realizes you're running without poisons because you're too cheap to buy them, you're not going to b welcome in groups with that person again. This is exactly why they changed Makeshift Arrows, absolutely no one except for lower level rangers that were soloing were ever ever making use of the ability to summon inferior arrows.I mean, think about it. Rangers are already supremely hurting in damage output in comparison to every other DPS class. Rangers, right now, have huge problems getting groups outside of their circle of friends, even when using the best arrows available to them. Why? Because all a ranger can bring to a group is damage, and every decently geared and played assassin, warlock, wizard, swashy and sometimes brigand brings more utility to the group and MORE damage. And not insignificant amounts of damage either. In many cases much MUCH more damage. If the ranger is undergeared or trying to group with raid equipped classes, even the tanks and sometimes the HEALERS have the capability to do more DPS than they do. Rangers can't compete for group slots now, giving them free but crappy arrows will not help the situation one bit.Bottom line, it's an unbalanced design decision that should never have been made at the very beginning of the game. It's a bad thing to put into an MMO, where class balance is generally the largest issue developers face. It should never have been in EQ2. It should never have been in EQ1. (Incidentally, I'm told WoW is giving their hunters what amounts to an endless quiver with the next expansion. Couldn't tell you if that's accurate, but it's what I've heard). It's a holdover from single player RPGs such as Baldur's Gate (incidentally, Baldur's Gate 2 had at least two bows, if I remember right, that did not need ammunition, so even THEN the idea of not having consumable ammunition was floating around).It's not the worst issue rangers face, but it's just one more thing that really needs adjusting.

Rainmare

05-30-2010, 07:22 PM

your a Ranger. paying for your arows is part of the class. hell EQ1 rangers didn't get thier 'endless quiver' until what? Luclin?and then it was like an endline skill, you had to practically have gotten every single other AA before you were able to get the Endless Quiver.Granted, you could use a boost to your damage so that Assassins and Wizards aren't trouncing you so badly. they could make it so the bulk of your damage comes from your ranged CAs adn auto rather then running around in melee and then range.and you prolly have an eaiser time getting that kind of fix then facing them trying to destroy another TS class like they've done with armorers/weaponsmiths/tailors.

FearDiadh

05-30-2010, 07:49 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>your a Ranger. paying for your arows is part of the class. hell EQ1 rangers didn't get thier 'endless quiver' until what? Luclin?and then it was like an endline skill, you had to practically have gotten every single other AA before you were able to get the Endless Quiver.Granted, you could use a boost to your damage so that Assassins and Wizards aren't trouncing you so badly. they could make it so the bulk of your damage comes from your ranged CAs adn auto rather then running around in melee and then range.and you prolly have an eaiser time getting that kind of fix then facing them trying to destroy another TS class like they've done with armorers/weaponsmiths/tailors.</blockquote>I didn't play EQ in the end years, but I did play it for the first 4-5 years. I played a ranger. As I recall, rangers got fletching as a secondary skill automatically.Quivers should be made endless. You could have varying degrees of arrows even with this. ie: handcrafted field point quiver, handcrafted bodkin quiver, mastercrafted field point quiver, legendary bodkin quiver, fabled quiver of fiery arrows of death.Allow woodworkers to make the quivers. Tailors have enough stuff to make as is.While you are at this, why not take a look at why ranged weapons do less auto attack dps than melee weapons do auto attack dps. Let's also take a look at why ranger combat arts are not comparable in damage to assassin combat arts. It was said almost a month before sf that rangers would be looked at and adjusted. How many months have gone by and nothing... It would be different if every month there was an update and classes were balanced in these monthly updates (that is the way it worked for several years). Now we go 4 months at a time between updates and there are no class balances that happen. I think we are currently 3.5 months out from the next chance at getting 'adjusted'.Do the devs not know why there are 4x as many level 90 shadowknights as there are rangers?

kartikeya

05-30-2010, 08:01 PM

<cite>Rainmare@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>your a Ranger. paying for your arows is part of the class. hell EQ1 rangers didn't get thier 'endless quiver' until what? Luclin?and then it was like an endline skill, you had to practically have gotten every single other AA before you were able to get the Endless Quiver.Granted, you could use a boost to your damage so that Assassins and Wizards aren't trouncing you so badly. they could make it so the bulk of your damage comes from your ranged CAs adn auto rather then running around in melee and then range.and you prolly have an eaiser time getting that kind of fix then facing them trying to destroy another TS class like they've done with armorers/weaponsmiths/tailors.</blockquote>See above post. This would not destroy Woodworkers, and even if that were the case, it is completely ridiculous that one single class should be supporting an entire tradeskill. The solution to that is fixing woodworkers as well, not forcing one class to pay upwards of two plat A NIGHT just to keep woodworkers afloat.You could say that sucking at DPS is also part of the class. That doesn't make it a good part of the class. Back when coercers used thoughtstones for a certain part of their essential spells, I'm sure people argued that was 'part of the class' too. Name me one coercer who was sad when that particular 'feature' was patched out. Being 'part of the class' doesn't automatically make it balanced or desired. It is neither.

Carpediem

06-01-2010, 09:38 PM

Was a poor design to begin with when they made rangers the sole supporter of woodworkers. How about sages make an item that is needed for every spell a mage can cast. Sound like a good idea? That's where we're at.

kartikeya

06-01-2010, 09:47 PM

Oh wonderful, the four page thread from General ends up here too, after several days.Seriously, it's hard to take thread moving as insulting but seriously.

Carpediem

06-01-2010, 10:02 PM

I'm curious how these two threads don't belong in a general forum. Putting them in here is like throwing them in the garbage. Kiara obviously has carte blanche and uses it for what she wants.If you think about it, this team has the dream job. Not because they make video games but, because they're the only non government company in america that can take a dump on customers and get away with it. I work with client's everyday and only wish I could come close to getting away with what these guys do.

Nevao

06-02-2010, 01:58 PM

<cite>akaglty wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm curious how these two threads don't belong in a general forum. Putting them in here is like throwing them in the garbage.</blockquote>What's funny is there's a Summoner's pet "hey we're broken post" that has been allowed to sit there since 5/27.

Neiloch

06-02-2010, 02:06 PM

Well could always spin every thread in public forums to ranger issues lol. We got a lot of them so wouldn't be that hard really.And before someone says some 'catch more flies with honey' bull we did that months ago with squat to show for it. So if we are going to be ignored we might as well do it on our terms.

Ranja

06-02-2010, 02:30 PM

<cite>Neiloch@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well could always spin every thread in public forums to ranger issues lol. We got a lot of them so wouldn't be that hard really.And before someone says some 'catch more flies with honey' bull we did that months ago with squat to show for it. So if we are going to be ignored we might as well do it on our terms.</blockquote>+1. I am done being nice. I am just going to be an a%^ on the forums from now on and derail every thread I can to ranger issue thread<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Gladiolus

06-02-2010, 02:38 PM

It's totally unfair that rangers have to pay for arrows. How were they supposed to know when they created the class that they'd be using arrows?

Neiloch

06-02-2010, 03:03 PM

Whats funny is because of their [Removed for Content]'d design people making rangers probably wouldn't realize how much they TRULY have to use arrows until like 30-40. Wait that's not funny. But with your logic if say summoners had to pay for every spell cast and other mages didn't, it would be fair and proper if that's just how its always been? 'just because' is NEVER a good enough reasons to justify ANYTHING.

Ranja

06-02-2010, 04:06 PM

<cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>akaglty wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm curious how these two threads don't belong in a general forum. Putting them in here is like throwing them in the garbage.</blockquote>What's funny is there's a Summoner's pet "hey we're broken post" that has been allowed to sit there since 5/27. </blockquote>Nope I got that thread moved through the "report" feature. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I am going to report every class specific thread in that forum right after I de-rail it with a ranger rant.Go go ranger a%^

Nevao

06-02-2010, 04:46 PM

<cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nope I got that thread moved through the "report" feature. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> I am going to report every class specific thread in that forum right after I de-rail it with a ranger rant.Go go ranger a%^</blockquote>On an interesting side note they deleted all our comments about how it looked really bad to mod us but not someone else. But that's a derailing...Back to Endless Quiver. I have no problem paying for arrows. I view paying for arrows to be the "cost" for being able to hit at the range we can. I'm much more concerned about the relative damage values, and the min range than I am on the cost. Especially with the Conservation AA and Mythical Buff cutting down how much we have to consume on both sides.

Lethe5683

06-02-2010, 07:30 PM

<cite>Khurghan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Really guys, the price of arrows on the broker (unless you want lower level ones) is so cheap it effectively costs me more to make my own than to just buy them (unless they've all run out and someone has put some on at a rediculous price).I have a woodworker who can make arrows for me and I never bother making my own arrows.</blockquote>I agree, I don't know why anyone bothers making arrows to sell since in the time it takes me to make 2,000 arrows I can make enough money to buy 20,000 arrows.

Lethe5683

06-02-2010, 07:33 PM

I don't know if this is the way it works or not but I think for every class, not just rangers, 1 autoattack = 1 arrow, nothing else uses arrows at all period.

Harlequin

06-09-2010, 12:46 PM

I like what makeshift arrows is now. But I DO NOT like the fact that we no longer have a free way to summon arrows. I liked the way it was implemented before, and I typically used the free arrows when soloing, even though they were crap, because they were good enough to get the job done. For grouping/raiding I would use crafted. I don't see why they had to remove that to give us the new makeshift arrows ability. I'm now forced to spend about 50gp - 1pp per "play session" on arrows, with the current price of 7.5 sp to 10 sp per arrow on the AB broker. That's in addition to your standard "scout class" poisons. Yes, only auto-attack is supposed to consume arrows, but I still use PLENTY of them. Why did the developers have to TAKE AWAY the old skill to give us the new one? Why didn't they just ADD in the new skill. Really makes no sense. I'm sure there are folks out there in established guilds and at a high enough level where the cost doesn't matter, but I find it completely gets in the way for me to purchase new gear or CAs as I'm leveling in the 80s.

Striikor

06-09-2010, 03:19 PM

<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know if this is the way it works or not but I think for every class, not just rangers, 1 autoattack = 1 arrow, nothing else uses arrows at all period.</blockquote>You are right, but 1 day of doing BG I can go through 2000 arrows, every Raid Zone we do takes 600 or 700. And I have a 60% of not consuming an arrow with my myth buff (though I do not have a 60% chance that a ranged CA or AutoAttack will cast without arrows, I can;t do either without arrows). Without arrows 1/2 to 3/4 of my damage capability is gone. What other class does that happen too? How many can another class go through? Arrows ARE our attack.That said, I don't care about the current cost of arrows I have accepted it as the cost of being a Ranger and IMO we have MUCH more important fish to fry.

Seiffil

06-10-2010, 11:30 AM

<cite>Striikor@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know if this is the way it works or not but I think for every class, not just rangers, 1 autoattack = 1 arrow, nothing else uses arrows at all period.</blockquote>You are right, but 1 day of doing BG I can go through 2000 arrows, every Raid Zone we do takes 600 or 700. And I have a 60% of not consuming an arrow with my myth buff (though I do not have a 60% chance that a ranged CA or AutoAttack will cast without arrows, I can;t do either without arrows). Without arrows 1/2 to 3/4 of my damage capability is gone. What other class does that happen too? How many can another class go through? Arrows ARE our attack.That said, I don't care about the current cost of arrows I have accepted it as the cost of being a Ranger and IMO we have MUCH more important fish to fry.</blockquote>It's only on auto attack that we consume arrows, CA's don't consume them. I don't know if you have the AA points into arrow tear or whatever it's called now, but that gives a static 10% reduction in use as well, but even with the myth buff proc and arrow use reduction/return from Arrow Tear/Rip it's easy to go through several hundred arrows as you just said. That being said, Lethe can you just stop posting? Comparing arrow usage between a ranger and any other scout/fighter is laughable, because when you do that you ignore the significantly higher use of arrows for a ranger then anyone else. Unless you want to show how all scouts you know with throwing weapons, bows, go through the same amount of ammo on a raid as a ranger does. It's the volume of ammo used that prompts this discussion.Many have accepted the cost of arrows, and I probably would be ok with it, if it meant our dps was on par with all other t1 dps classes. But I do agree with you on one thing, between this or all of the other fixes rangers need I'd definitely say fix those issues first.