Remove the hard cap on casting speed

[Leucippus]

<p>The casting speed cap is causing AA and itemization difficulties at the moment.There is so much casting speed gear with this expansion, that it is easily possible to exceed 100% ability casting speed, through gear alone.Once 100% ability casting speed is achieved through gear, all AA abilities that reduce casting time become meaningless; they are nullified by the 100% casting speed achieved through gear.Casting speed is so plentiful on gear, that some of the casting speed on gear becomes meaningless.Casting speed is already affected by double diminishing returns, before the hard cap. For burst DPS or healing, the divisor is Casting Speed plus Recovery Time. For continuous DPS or healing, the divisor is Casting Speed plus Reuse Time. Even if casting speed were reduced to zero, instant cast, recovery time would still limit how many spells one could cast per second. Also, in that case, reuse time would limit how often one could cast a spell.For reference, 50% casting speed is a casting speed multiplier of 0.667, 100% is 0.5, 200% would be 0.333, 300% would be 0.25. Even without that hard cap, casting speed would still be limited, just not completely meaningless above 100%. The current hard cap is 0.5. There are some AA abilities that, alone, reduce the casting time to this hard cap. The base Recovery Time is 0.5 seconds.The hard cap on potency has already been removed on test, presumably for a similar reason.</p><p>Please remove the hard cap on casting time. Doing so would eliminate the nullification of some AA (and gear choices) by the which gear is worn. It would allow for more variety in gear choices without hindering oneself so much. Certain gear, such as the raid drops, is more or less expected to be worn.</p><p>-Leucippus</p>

[Aule]

If they decided to remove the hard cap, for some reason, the most likely scenario would be not to remove the cap, but to use the same scaling that happens with haste and dps mod up to 200. Where 100 haste is cast time div 2, 200 would be cast time div 2.25. Should we do the same thing for reuse too? Moreso, the problem isn't the caps, it's the bad itemization that causes the caps to be arbitrary roadblocks that aren't difficult to reach.

[Banditman]

<p>Actually, I find that the cap is making Itemization more flexible.  If you can "easily" reach the cap, it allows you to choose items with other bonuses on them.</p>

[Korrupt]

<p>all caps are detrimental to growth. Every stat we get capped on is a stat we expect to stay capped on and we look for other new stats to grow our characters. This is where SOE gets itself in a pickle with itemization. Once we're capped on everything upgrades to gear become obsolete because you have nothing more to gain. There should be no caps, but at the same time stats should not be given out in such proportions that it forces a level increase just to justify upgrading gear.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Which is what degradation would solve.</p>

[Korrupt]

<p>degradation is forced upgrading that only works through a level increase. It's too flawed a concept to work correctly in this game, and with SOE's track record of doing things horribly wrong I would be extremely worried if they tried to implement it. What I'm saying is if we don't have caps then new gear can always be made to increase stats without forcing everyone to go through the mundane task of lvling a new 10 levels and starting over every 2 years.</p>

[Gormak]

<p>they dont need degredation. They need to expand the stat curve by level that already exists.</p><p>At Level X you need Y of any given stat for '100%' chance of whatever.</p><p>Ax level x+1 you need Y+Z of any given stat for 100% chance of whatever. Where Z is the 'level' adjustment to be determined by games mechanics people.</p><p>So then you replace all % based values, with real integer values, in the same manner as any green stat, or resist.</p><p>Then as you level up, instead of needing say 900 crit value at level 90, at level 91 you need 910. Your gear doesnt change. The goalposts moved because you leveled. As they should.</p><p>Further, the combat based modifiers, in the same way as resists, need to scale based on the level of the opponent your fighting. Meaning if your level 90 and fighting a level 90 mob, your 900 crit value is fine. 100% crit chance. If your at a raid, being level 90, fighting a level 98 target, you need (for example purposes) 980 crit value.</p><p>Spell haste etc, would simply just need a number equivalent to a 100% rating. Conceptually all of this is very very simple, UI mods would be extremely easy, portals like EQ2 players would become infinitely easier to build upon.</p><p>If the statistics system were simplified in this way itd make things a [Removed for Content] sight easier. This also means you dont degrade your armor... you simply out grow it, or need progressively greater and greater values to ensure your abilities remain viable.</p><p>I dont think in reality, for all its simplicity, the above would be very easy to do in EQ2. I suspect EQ2 devs have discussed this, and the reason we dont see it, is its easier said than done in the scheme of whats likely a hodge podge bit of spagetti code that somehow joins 2 dots together from the many forms of beneficial spells, detremental spells, and buffs that all get manipulated differently.</p>

[Korrupt]

<p>That idea would create problems with AA's. AA's based on cast speed, crit chance, etc should not decrease in effectiveness due to you being a higher level. So they'd have to put in place a system where AA's increase in value proportionately with level.</p><p>Either way any system that has an obtainable cap is flawed and will be restrictive and reduce options. It may seem like you have more options because since you're capped on cast speed you can choose potency or whatever, but in actuality you have less choices because the cast speed choice is no longer a valid option.</p>

[Gormak]

<p><cite>Korrupt@Najena wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That idea would create problems with AA's. AA's based on cast speed, crit chance, etc should not decrease in effectiveness due to you being a higher level. So they'd have to put in place a system where AA's increase in value proportionately with level.</p><p>Either way any system that has an obtainable cap is flawed and will be restrictive and reduce options. It may seem like you have more options because since you're capped on cast speed you can choose potency or whatever, but in actuality you have less choices because the cast speed choice is no longer a valid option.</p></blockquote><p>Not nessecarily.</p><p>The AA's could still function the same. Infact AA's and Racial traits are probably the best spot to actually use direct % values. Why? they ignore player level as Korrupt said. Instead of directly manipulating the overall % value, they increase the integer value by that same %.</p><p>So an AA granting 10% additional crit would take "900 crit value" to "990 crit value". Id leave it to the powers that be to determine the balancing effects of such a manipulation.</p><p>So AA's could be left as is and be ok. This is actually where AA's Racial Traits etc should use direct % values rather than a fixed number. Items themselves using percentage mods is just so problematic for so many reasons.</p><p>To the original point of the thread:</p><p>As for the cast cap. Im not sure. As a summoner id look at somthing like reuse being uncapped, and my immeadiate thought is "How do i get my Planeshift reuse effectively to zero".... you see the problem here?</p><p>Remove the cast cap, people will get 2 min cast time spells down to 20 or 30 seconds.... Wizards, Locks, .... anyone drooling yet?? Add to that those people with already fast cast times, if reuse wasnt also lifted, you create an idle time potential while people wait on reuse refreshes.... reuse removes.... well throw back 2 paragraphs to what id be gunning for on the example of Planeshift.</p><p>I see more problems than benefits on a whole by relaxing cast and/or reuse speed caps. Sure, we may see a 100% rule increased to 150%, but as Korrupt pointed out, a cap is a cap.... people will hit it. Item designers will run out of ideas for keeping people progressing.</p><p>Caps are bad but i cant see anything but trouble by tinkering with haste manipulators of any kind...</p><p>Item design and the stat mod/combat system is certainly not an area id want to be a developer in... damned if you do, damned if you dont.</p>

[Tehom]

<p><cite>Gormak wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As for the cast cap. Im not sure. As a summoner id look at somthing like reuse being uncapped, and my immeadiate thought is "How do i get my Planeshift reuse effectively to zero".... you see the problem here?</p><p>Remove the cast cap, people will get 2 min cast time spells down to 20 or 30 seconds.... Wizards, Locks, .... anyone drooling yet?? Add to that those people with already fast cast times, if reuse wasnt also lifted, you create an idle time potential while people wait on reuse refreshes.... reuse removes.... well throw back 2 paragraphs to what id be gunning for on the example of Planeshift.</p></blockquote><p>I don't think it'd break anything. To get a 2 minute reuse cast down to 20 seconds would require what, 500% reuse speed? The system supports diminishing returns as is. Reducing a 10 minute reuse spell to effectively 0 reuse, say 1 second, is something like 60,000% reuse. I don't think we'd be in much danger of that.</p>

[Gormak]

<p><cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gormak wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As for the cast cap. Im not sure. As a summoner id look at somthing like reuse being uncapped, and my immeadiate thought is "How do i get my Planeshift reuse effectively to zero".... you see the problem here?</p><p>Remove the cast cap, people will get 2 min cast time spells down to 20 or 30 seconds.... Wizards, Locks, .... anyone drooling yet?? Add to that those people with already fast cast times, if reuse wasnt also lifted, you create an idle time potential while people wait on reuse refreshes.... reuse removes.... well throw back 2 paragraphs to what id be gunning for on the example of Planeshift.</p></blockquote><p>I don't think it'd break anything. To get a 2 minute reuse cast down to 20 seconds would require what, 500% reuse speed? The system supports diminishing returns as is. Reducing a 10 minute reuse spell to effectively 0 reuse, say 1 second, is something like 60,000% reuse. I don't think we'd be in much danger of that.</p></blockquote><p>You may be corrrect if you consider reuse/haste mods only. But honestly, they arent needed in many situations to reach various caps as it is (certain classes will see more benefit than others here).</p><p>AA's that directly adjust the cast time of a spell count toward the cast speed/reuse stat rule. Many Summoner Direct Damage abilities are basically spell cast speed capped by such AA's alone. Planeshift as an example. I am reuse capped (its at 5 or 6 mins (forget exact number), no amount of further reuse can change it), Crystal blast.... Cast speed capped. Firey Annihalation, cast speed capped. I can tell you i dont have 500% reuse... hell i dont even have 100%. Fact is i have several abilities that are cast speed and/or reuse capped due to direct time manipulations via aa, set bonus', red adornments, or combinations of.</p><p>While your numbers may be correct, fact is you dont need those percentages... Red adornment, TSO set bonuses etc have many time-specific adjustments that actually count toward the haste/reuse caps. id suggest many players and/or other classes through AA will already have several abilities in similar situations to what ive outlined above. In such a situation, its not hard to imagine a scenario wherby speed and reuse manipulate things in the ways ive identified.</p><p>I really do think there would need to be more sweeping changes across several areas before any haste caps are tweaked. I dont play a healer but im wondering what the class balance implications might be there too... if AA trees arent consistant in manipulating "core" abilities in a consistant way, there will be trouble.</p>

[Korrupt]

<p>nothing is consistent in this game lol, absolutely nothing</p>

[Paci]

<p>Removing hard cap may be considered only if there will be encounters that effectively decrease the numbers.</p><p>In SF there already are several of them so I think the cap will be removed in some time.</p><p>The main problem is that this change will effect already existing encounters making them absolete...</p><p>P.S. Adding encouner debuff for casting speed makes all those AAs back useful. So there is no actual need to remove the cap.</p>

[Aule]

They'd have to actually include moderate cast debuffs then instead of spell will take x% longer to cast or -200% to cast haste.

[Sedenten]

<p>I've always felt that caps shouldn't be in place to control effects.  Itemization and game design should artificially cap abilities.  For example, if you want 100% casting speed to be the absolute top for players to have then don't allow them the opportunity to collect that much casting speed with gear and AA's combined.   </p><p>It's kind of sad that so many AA's are worthless after a certain point.  For shaman, the "SF endline" for the old INT line (decreases casting speed of hostile spells) became worthless the day the expansion launched.  That particular endline requires you to be level 81+ to begin with (so lower level shaman can't even benefit from it), and nearly all the  healer gear that is 81+ has some form of casting speed modifier on it.  Even for non-raiders, it's not hard to get over the casting speed cap if you really want to.  Reuse is another one--there's many AA abilities that drop time from the reuse of an ability but end up hitting the reuse cap before spending every rank.  </p><p>The same was true of nearly every AA that affects the base damage or healing of an ability--all of those ended up doing little to nothing due to the potency cap.  With the cap removed, those AA's will become an asset again.</p><p>The only argument I've heard from devs against the removal of caps is that without those caps in place exploiters can more easily manipulate the system.  If the reuse cap were removed, there would be someone out there that would then hack the system and give themselves 6000% reuse.  With the caps in place, the best they can do is go up to the current cap.  I would think that the caps could simply be raised to an amount that we're not intended to ever have (i.e. 300%, possibly).</p>

[Silzin]

Speaking as a tank, i can see ways that they could brake the game. most tank have some ability that gives them immunity to most all damage for 10-30 sec atm. with a reuse time that is several times the duration. but if the reuse could be dropped below the duration or the ability that the tank can get damage immunity almost 100% of the time. making a lot of heroic encounters and some epic 1s also not needing a healer at all to do.

[Leucippus]

<p>With AA, that 300% cap just mentioned could actually, easily, be reached, but not how one might expect.</p><p>Remember 300% casting speed is a 0.25 multiplier. 1 / (1+(300%/100)) = 1 / (1+3) = 1 / 4 = 0.25</p><p>Let:</p><p>Base = base casting speed</p><p>Direct Adjustment = direct adjustments to casting speed; i.e. -0.1 seconds</p><p>Casting Speed = the percent casting speed adjustments.</p><p>The current cap is (Base X 0.5), without regard to any adjustments.</p><p>The casting speed formula is:</p><p>(Base - Direct Adjustment) X (1 / (1+(Casting Speed/100 )))</p><p>That result is compared to the cap of (Base X 0.5)</p><p>Assume:</p><p>Base = 1 second</p><p>Direct Adjustment = 0.5 seconds (through AA)</p><p>Casting Speed = 100%</p><p>Working the numbers gives:</p><p>(1 - 0.5) X (1 / (1+(100/100))) = (0.5) X (1 / 2) = 0.25</p><p>Notice that 0.25 cast time in this case is equivalent to 300% Casting Speed in the absence of that direct adjustment!</p><p>Three troubador spells have a base cast time of 1 second and AA direct adjustments of 0.5 seconds.</p><p>The day the patch notes stated all Direct Adjustments where changed to work this way was a sad day for some classes. That change was an almost unnoticed, unintentional nerf. A red name posted the change was made to bring some consistency to the system.</p><p>There are a few more things to remember when considering this situation:</p><p>--The game already supports instant cast spells, so, presumably, very short cast times are support by the game.</p><p>--Cast time, Recovery time, and Reuse time are all interrelated. Looking at them in isolation can lead to misleading results.</p><p>--proc rates are normalized to base cast time, without regard to adjustments.</p><p>-Leucippus</p>

[Leucippus]

<p><cite>Silzin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Speaking as a tank, i can see ways that they could brake the game. most tank have some ability that gives them immunity to most all damage for 10-30 sec atm. with a reuse time that is several times the duration. but if the reuse could be dropped below the duration or the ability that the tank can get damage immunity almost 100% of the time. making a lot of heroic encounters and some epic 1s also not needing a healer at all to do.</blockquote><p>This thread I started is for casting speed , not reuse speed. Stay on topic please.</p><p>-Leucippus</p>

[Silzin]

<p><cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Silzin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Speaking as a tank, i can see ways that they could brake the game. most tank have some ability that gives them immunity to most all damage for 10-30 sec atm. with a reuse time that is several times the duration. but if the reuse could be dropped below the duration or the ability that the tank can get damage immunity almost 100% of the time. making a lot of heroic encounters and some epic 1s also not needing a healer at all to do.</blockquote><p>This thread I started is for casting speed , not reuse speed. Stay on topic please.</p><p>-Leucippus</p></blockquote><p>Sory i must be getting them confused.</p>

[Gungo]

<p>The only issue I see this causing is the relative balance of casters long cast time casters with procs based on thier base cast times will undoubtably benefit more from this change then summoners and especially enchanters.</p><p>This will also foster that spam cast feel a few people complain about and ultimately lead to the next complaint thread about reuse speed being capped and casters who need to wait for thier spells to refresh.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Actually, I find that the cap is making Itemization more flexible.  If you can "easily" reach the cap, it allows you to choose items with other bonuses on them.</p></blockquote><p>This.</p>

[LardLord]

<p>I don't really see the reason to remove any more caps.  As Banditman said, you still have lots of options with gear.  Now that potency is uncapped, we have pretty much limitless growth potential.  I can see them allowing double attack to "overcap" to triple attack at some point down the line, if potency (and ability mod, ect) grow so far that auto-attack loses significance.</p>

[EvilAstroboy]

<p>The cap should stay, but AA and focus effects which reduce cast time should be applied before calculation (if you have 1 second cast time reduction on a 3 second spell, the hard cap at 100% cast speed should be 1 second, not 1.5 seconds).</p>

[Gormak]

<p><cite>EvilAstroboy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The cap should stay, but AA and focus effects which reduce cast time should be applied before calculation (if you have 1 second cast time reduction on a 3 second spell, the hard cap at 100% cast speed should be 1 second, not 1.5 seconds).</p></blockquote><p>This could be interesting...</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Gormak wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>EvilAstroboy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The cap should stay, but AA and focus effects which reduce cast time should be applied before calculation (if you have 1 second cast time reduction on a 3 second spell, the hard cap at 100% cast speed should be 1 second, not 1.5 seconds).</p></blockquote><p>This could be interesting...</p></blockquote><p>Yea seperate item caps vs ability caps would be good since it would allow them to have some control on class balance. </p>

[Hecula]

<p>Ahh every time I see this argument it always makes me smile. Makes me remember about a year and a half ago where I posted something about caps and diminishing returns being negatives and got shouted down and called an idiot by a bunch of people. Oh how times change.</p><p>In any case, they've done a great thing by uncapping your primary stat and crit bonus and now potency. I would argue that ability mod needs to be next. There's no reason for an arbritrary 50% of base cap on ability mod.</p><p>Unfortunately, I think cast and recovery speeds should stay capped at 100%. It's too imbalancing to have everything insta-cast - a lesson I would think they learned back in the Mossy Twig days of EQ1.</p>