Should bloodletter be disabled fron pvp/bg combat? [Archive]

Wytie

05-14-2010, 06:15 PM

So you all think its balenced that an SK has to be killed 3 times before you can actually kill them?What other class gets 2 free extra lives?As if all the other stuff they get wasnt enough, they get 3 full lifes too.I have an SK.I play him all the time, he is stupid. Sure hes fun, but its kinda dumb that every BG match is dominated by SK's because each group has atleast 2 of them.Why is this stuff so hard for Sony to understand?Soooo many things that are so broken OP about em its not even funny.BG arent that much fun for everyone else who isnt an SK or even a pally because you have to fight 3 or 4 of them in every match you run.I lol at because its dispellable, its balenced lolololololol.

Trynt

05-14-2010, 06:19 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>BG arent that much fun for everyone else who isnt an SK or even a pally because you have to fight 3 or 4 of them in every match you run.</blockquote>Speak for yourself, and exaggerate less. Challenges are fun for some of us.

Bruener

05-14-2010, 06:39 PM

I don't know, I can toast any of the SKs I have seen BL or not. BL is just a little annoying because they might pop up once. Try going for the SKs group members instead...no group member means no BL tics.

Yimway

05-14-2010, 06:45 PM

Just once? I've seen em pop up 3x.

Dreadpatch

05-14-2010, 06:53 PM

BL doesn't have to be removed just toned down.

Crismorn

05-14-2010, 07:05 PM

With how many SK's I see in BG's its pretty hard to think its a coincidence, I would bet 50-75% of them started playing right after the spell dmg nerf due to players unable to adapt.It saddens me that you can level an SK up to 90/250 and then gear him in less time then it takes to learn the class you were playing beforehand.Something needs to change.

Wytie

05-14-2010, 07:49 PM

Ceolus

05-15-2010, 06:43 AM

The only thing annoying about bloodletter is when it nearly kills other groupmembers.

TuinalOfTheNexus

05-16-2010, 11:07 AM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>With how many SK's I see in BG's its pretty hard to think its a coincidence, I would bet 50-75% of them started playing right after the spell dmg nerf due to players unable to adapt.It saddens me that you can level an SK up to 90/250 and then gear him in less time then it takes to learn the class you were playing beforehand.Something needs to change.</blockquote>The problem is it takes the developers to long to fix and address balance issues, it's quicker to roll and level the FoTY class (flavor of the year, because classes are overpowered or broken for years in EQ2, not months), than stick it out and wait/hope for a balance patch, even when it's obvious to 99.5% of the player base some classes are gimped.

snowli

05-16-2010, 03:51 PM

<cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>With how many SK's I see in BG's its pretty hard to think its a coincidence, I would bet 50-75% of them started playing right after the spell dmg nerf due to players unable to adapt.It saddens me that you can level an SK up to 90/250 and then gear him in less time then it takes to learn the class you were playing beforehand.Something needs to change.</blockquote>The problem is it takes the developers to long to fix and address balance issues, it's quicker to roll and level the FoTY class (flavor of the year, because classes are overpowered or broken for years in EQ2, not months), than stick it out and wait/hope for a balance patch, even when it's obvious to 99.5% of the player base some classes are gimped.</blockquote>More resources should be allocated to class balance, the playerbase identified it as their number 1 issue by around 65% I think when SoE did an SF survey, and yet the balances are agonisingly slow to come, and yet surprisingly heavy handed and illconceived quite often when they do arrive.Most classes have broken or useless skills for several years now, many classes need major overhauls in regards to pvp and pve, the number of issues are increasing not decreasing it seems because there just sin't enough dev time allocated to class balance.

Trynt

05-16-2010, 04:01 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>BG arent that much fun for everyone else who isnt an SK or even a pally because you have to fight 3 or 4 of them in every match you run.</blockquote>Speak for yourself, and exaggerate less. Challenges are fun for some of us.</blockquote>Are you really saying that im exaggerating? REALLY?Tell you what, want a REAL challenge?Play a class that has lots of buffs and just try and keep all of them up and tell me just how much fun you had.Theres your challenge......</blockquote>Yeah, I thought it was a simple enough statement, but I'll lay it out more clearly.1) You don't speak for "everyone else who isn't an SK."2) You may have to fight" 3 or 4 of them in every match you run." I've been in plenty, however, where that exaggeration wasn't true....and just to add a few more points...3) Many players, even of OP classes, aren't adequately prepared or experienced at playing their classes to be effective.4) Even more pretend that 6x6 = 6 one-on-ones, 12x12 = 12 one-on-ones, 24x24 = 24 one-on-ones and don't play as a coordinated force. Instead, they run away from their healers and/or tanks and pretend they have a Superman cape on, then complain when they get face-planted over and over.3 and 4 won't/shouldn't be solved by the game's mechanics. No amount of programming is gonna make them better. No programming can make a group coordinate their force's focus on an SK's/Zerker's/Pally's/whatever support team first . No programming can prevent people from ignoring the relic-holder/CTF/fight ON Towers instead of out in the middle of nowhere which does nothing productive for the match if they're losing.Working together as a team, many of the overpowered claims of single classes that are posted here can be countered. But why bother, it's easier to just call for a nerf.I do feel bad for Guardians and Necros though. Plus, calling for nerfs is just kinda cheesy, imo.edit: typos

Kota

05-16-2010, 06:27 PM

lotta of out of whack stuff in pvp. always been this way. now that blue servers are feeling it too, there are going to be a lot of attempts to balance classes. don't think they will have much success really. balancing 24 classes would be near impossible. now add in all the different aa's. now add itemization. i hope it comes to some sort of equilibrium but i really doubt it will. will be one witch hunt after another i'm thinking. if sk's get nerfed i'm betting brawlers will be the next gripe.

lollipop

05-16-2010, 06:35 PM

everyone thinks everyone else is OP stop being a little b^^%$ already

Orthureon

05-17-2010, 10:11 AM

In PVP BL should only heal for 50% per trigger.

MaCloud1032

05-17-2010, 10:35 AM

For 1 bloodletter rips health from my group so for me to get that heal I have to have groupmembers with health for me to take and also atound me. Its one of the first things debuffed from me. It can't be applyed in combat and one per group/raid can have it on at one time. Only SK's in t8 pvp gear or t8 t3 will have 2 ticks from bloodletter(unless there's an adorn) Other classes that get incombat rez Zerkers- vision of madness and unyealding will. Zerkers have 2 incombat rez both can be cast in combat. Vision of madness also gives the zerker massive in combat health regen. Unyelding will gives a massive heal and with AA takes away the death penalty. Guardians- unyealding will same as zerker after AA Driuds- thru AA's can also get a auto rez I do agree SK's are OP. Mine was rolled back at the start of pvp and was my first class. I currently am playing a guardian and a assassin. My sk is currently shelfed at 84

Wytie

05-17-2010, 12:00 PM

<cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>BG arent that much fun for everyone else who isnt an SK or even a pally because you have to fight 3 or 4 of them in every match you run.</blockquote>Speak for yourself, and exaggerate less. Challenges are fun for some of us.</blockquote>Are you really saying that im exaggerating? REALLY?Tell you what, want a REAL challenge?Play a class that has lots of buffs and just try and keep all of them up and tell me just how much fun you had.Theres your challenge......</blockquote>Yeah, I thought it was a simple enough statement, but I'll lay it out more clearly.1) You don't speak for "everyone else who isn't an SK."2) You may have to fight" 3 or 4 of them in every match you run." I've been in plenty, however, where that exaggeration wasn't true....and just to add a few more points...3) Many players, even of OP classes, aren't adequately prepared or experienced at playing their classes to be effective.4) Even more pretend that 6x6 = 6 one-on-ones, 12x12 = 12 one-on-ones, 24x24 = 24 one-on-ones and don't play as a coordinated force. Instead, they run away from their healers and/or tanks and pretend they have a Superman cape on, then complain when they get face-planted over and over.3 and 4 won't/shouldn't be solved by the game's mechanics. No amount of programming is gonna make them better. No programming can make a group coordinate their force's focus on an SK's/Zerker's/Pally's/whatever support team first . No programming can prevent people from ignoring the relic-holder/CTF/fight ON Towers instead of out in the middle of nowhere which does nothing productive for the match if they're losing.Working together as a team, many of the overpowered claims of single classes that are posted here can be countered. But why bother, it's easier to just call for a nerf.I do feel bad for Guardians and Necros though. Plus, calling for nerfs is just kinda cheesy, imo.edit: typos</blockquote>LOL I love how you justify a broken class with a broken abilitly with "Working together as a team, many of the overpowered claims of single classes that are posted here can be countered. " lolI never said I had any problems what so ever killing them. I know exactly how you kill them how to counter them, I freakn have one, thats not the point.The point is a class has an abilitly that all they have to do is activate this one abilitly before combat and with last xpac gear thats easly to get this xpac, can effectily, have to be kill 3 times with no effort by the SK what so ever after activating this buff.Atleast other classes have to time death saves before their actual death where as for the SK its automatic all the time. Also it isnt suppose to heal for 100% but it does due to the heal portion is effected by crit ect.If you cant see how broken that is in pvp/bg your an idiot.

Trynt

05-17-2010, 02:06 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you cant see how broken that is in pvp/bg your an idiot.</blockquote>This never gets old.

MaCloud1032

05-17-2010, 02:23 PM

Again paill zerkers vision of madness is a self buff put up that is a auto rez. Do reseach before making blanket statments. Vision of madness requires the zerker to be berserk and pook they pop up with a massive amount of incombat health regen.

Naggasaki

05-17-2010, 02:36 PM

I love the typical complaint around this forum 'x class is hard to deal with...it's OP and needs nerfed across the face'. Jeezus people. Yeah, I play an SK, yes I pvp a lot. But it's mostly solo....what good does bloodletter do me there? NONE.Furthermore, I'm highly amused at the number of people that simply CAN'T play their class to begin with. It's not as simple as rolling the 'op class of the month' and slapping some gear on it. If you can't taunt, time your AA abilities *DA, Shadowknights Fury etc etc* properly, your just gonna die three times really quickly. I know the group of players I occasionally 'group pvp' with and I know my cleric and shaman well enough that I don't even USE bloodletter in group PvP. It is a detriment to the rest of the group.How about blink/drag?...[Removed for Content].Are SK's OP? yes. Is complaining doing you any good? probably not.

Wytie

05-17-2010, 02:50 PM

<cite>Darksavanna@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Again paill zerkers vision of madness is a self buff put up that is a auto rez. Do reseach before making blanket statments. Vision of madness requires the zerker to be berserk and pook they pop up with a massive amount of incombat health regen.</blockquote>Again?How about I never mention Zerker, not even once. So maybe you should L2R before making blanket statments.Of course I know nothing about zerkers because Iv never played one so why would I even comment on them????I love the poster who said bloodletter does nothing for them solo. LOL This is the BG section please tell me exactly what you do in BG's thats solo??? yea thats what I thought.....

Wytie

05-17-2010, 02:53 PM

<cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you cant see how broken that is in pvp/bg your an idiot.</blockquote>This never gets old.</blockquote>When thats all you have to clutch onto in a discussion, I can understand it not getting old, but hey, atleast you have that though right?

Stubbswick

05-17-2010, 02:55 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>What other class gets 2 free extra lives?</blockquote>No, you didn't explicitly bring up Berserkers, but since you can't remember your own arguments, here's why others brought them up.FYI, look up brawler's tenacity too.

Trynt

05-17-2010, 03:01 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you cant see how broken that is in pvp/bg your an idiot.</blockquote>This never gets old.</blockquote>When thats all you have to clutch onto in a discussion, I can understand it not getting old, but hey, atleast you have that though right?</blockquote>I'm not clutching at all. Remember, this started by a simple statement of saying that you don't speak for everyone. You don't. I thought Naggy players had thicker skin. Cry more.

Badmotorfinger

05-17-2010, 03:27 PM

lol, I can't believe how many joker SKs have chimed in to try and defend these abilities. SKs are the biggest Joke of balance that I'VE EVER SEEN in an MMO. This class does this, this class does that, and this class; does them all.

Sydares

05-17-2010, 05:25 PM

Death prevents shouldn't function in BG.Having your HP reduced below 0 should be game over, wait for your rez. It is for most classes.

Darkonx

05-17-2010, 05:43 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>BG arent that much fun for everyone else who isnt an SK or even a pally because you have to fight 3 or 4 of them in every match you run.</blockquote>Speak for yourself, and exaggerate less. Challenges are fun for some of us.</blockquote>Are you really saying that im exaggerating? REALLY?Tell you what, want a REAL challenge?Play a class that has lots of buffs and just try and keep all of them up and tell me just how much fun you had.Theres your challenge......</blockquote>Yeah, I thought it was a simple enough statement, but I'll lay it out more clearly.1) You don't speak for "everyone else who isn't an SK."2) You may have to fight" 3 or 4 of them in every match you run." I've been in plenty, however, where that exaggeration wasn't true....and just to add a few more points...3) Many players, even of OP classes, aren't adequately prepared or experienced at playing their classes to be effective.4) Even more pretend that 6x6 = 6 one-on-ones, 12x12 = 12 one-on-ones, 24x24 = 24 one-on-ones and don't play as a coordinated force. Instead, they run away from their healers and/or tanks and pretend they have a Superman cape on, then complain when they get face-planted over and over.3 and 4 won't/shouldn't be solved by the game's mechanics. No amount of programming is gonna make them better. No programming can make a group coordinate their force's focus on an SK's/Zerker's/Pally's/whatever support team first . No programming can prevent people from ignoring the relic-holder/CTF/fight ON Towers instead of out in the middle of nowhere which does nothing productive for the match if they're losing.Working together as a team, many of the overpowered claims of single classes that are posted here can be countered. But why bother, it's easier to just call for a nerf.I do feel bad for Guardians and Necros though. Plus, calling for nerfs is just kinda cheesy, imo.edit: typos</blockquote>LOL I love how you justify a broken class with a broken abilitly with "Working together as a team, many of the overpowered claims of single classes that are posted here can be countered. " lolI never said I had any problems what so ever killing them. I know exactly how you kill them how to counter them, I freakn have one, thats not the point.The point is a class has an abilitly that all they have to do is activate this one abilitly before combat and with last xpac gear thats easly to get this xpac, can effectily, have to be kill 3 times with no effort by the SK what so ever after activating this buff.Atleast other classes have to time death saves before their actual death where as for the SK its automatic all the time. Also it isnt suppose to heal for 100% but it does due to the heal portion is effected by crit ect.If you cant see how broken that is in pvp/bg your an idiot.</blockquote>Actually.. It IS meant to heal for 100%.

Wytie

05-17-2010, 05:46 PM

<cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you cant see how broken that is in pvp/bg your an idiot.</blockquote>This never gets old.</blockquote>When thats all you have to clutch onto in a discussion, I can understand it not getting old, but hey, atleast you have that though right?</blockquote>I'm not clutching at all. Remember, this started by a simple statement of saying that you don't speak for everyone. You don't. I thought Naggy players had thicker skin. Cry more.</blockquote>Actually this thread started by a simple question, from which you have replied to 3 or 4 times and have still failed to answer.I thought you bluebies were smarter than that. Oh well derail QQ more.

Wytie

05-17-2010, 05:47 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>BG arent that much fun for everyone else who isnt an SK or even a pally because you have to fight 3 or 4 of them in every match you run.</blockquote>Speak for yourself, and exaggerate less. Challenges are fun for some of us.</blockquote>Are you really saying that im exaggerating? REALLY?Tell you what, want a REAL challenge?Play a class that has lots of buffs and just try and keep all of them up and tell me just how much fun you had.Theres your challenge......</blockquote>Yeah, I thought it was a simple enough statement, but I'll lay it out more clearly.1) You don't speak for "everyone else who isn't an SK."2) You may have to fight" 3 or 4 of them in every match you run." I've been in plenty, however, where that exaggeration wasn't true....and just to add a few more points...3) Many players, even of OP classes, aren't adequately prepared or experienced at playing their classes to be effective.4) Even more pretend that 6x6 = 6 one-on-ones, 12x12 = 12 one-on-ones, 24x24 = 24 one-on-ones and don't play as a coordinated force. Instead, they run away from their healers and/or tanks and pretend they have a Superman cape on, then complain when they get face-planted over and over.3 and 4 won't/shouldn't be solved by the game's mechanics. No amount of programming is gonna make them better. No programming can make a group coordinate their force's focus on an SK's/Zerker's/Pally's/whatever support team first . No programming can prevent people from ignoring the relic-holder/CTF/fight ON Towers instead of out in the middle of nowhere which does nothing productive for the match if they're losing.Working together as a team, many of the overpowered claims of single classes that are posted here can be countered. But why bother, it's easier to just call for a nerf.I do feel bad for Guardians and Necros though. Plus, calling for nerfs is just kinda cheesy, imo.edit: typos</blockquote>LOL I love how you justify a broken class with a broken abilitly with "Working together as a team, many of the overpowered claims of single classes that are posted here can be countered. " lolI never said I had any problems what so ever killing them. I know exactly how you kill them how to counter them, I freakn have one, thats not the point.The point is a class has an abilitly that all they have to do is activate this one abilitly before combat and with last xpac gear thats easly to get this xpac, can effectily, have to be kill 3 times with no effort by the SK what so ever after activating this buff.Atleast other classes have to time death saves before their actual death where as for the SK its automatic all the time. Also it isnt suppose to heal for 100% but it does due to the heal portion is effected by crit ect.If you cant see how broken that is in pvp/bg your an idiot.</blockquote>Actually.. It IS meant to heal for 100%.</blockquote>Actually.... Its not.check the tool tip AGAIN with pvp checked and come back and edit your post.

Phygnathus

05-17-2010, 05:56 PM

<cite>Darksavanna@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerkers- vision of madness and unyealding will. Zerkers have 2 incombat rez both can be cast in combat. Vision of madness also gives the zerker massive in combat health regen. Unyelding will gives a massive heal and with AA takes away the death penalty.</blockquote>Vision of madness only brings you back up with a small amount of initial health and a HoT. Most of the time it isn't much of a death save at all. It's usually more of a "let me die a twice in a row" ability. Vision of Madness has probably only really saved me a handful of times when a fight is close. Unyielding will is more useful, though you need to time it right. It doesn't heal you up fully, but is usually a pretty good amount. The downside is that you will die when it expires unless you spec AA points to remove the death penalty when berserk. And then you need to spec even more AA in another line to get a clicky berserk if you want to make sure you take advantage of the removed death penalty.

Trynt

05-17-2010, 06:21 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually this thread started by a simple question, from which you have replied to 3 or 4 times and have still failed to answer.I thought you bluebies were smarter than that. Oh well derail QQ more.</blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Should bloodletter be disabled fron pvp/bg combat?</blockquote><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote>No.How boring BGs would be if everything was as easy as some of the requests that litter this forum suggest it "should be."And no, I don't have an SK of any level.Learn to enjoy challenges for cryin' outloud.</blockquote>Asked. Answered. You forgot. Keep raging.

Notsovilepriest

05-17-2010, 06:27 PM

<cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually this thread started by a simple question, from which you have replied to 3 or 4 times and have still failed to answer.I thought you bluebies were smarter than that. Oh well derail QQ more.</blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Should bloodletter be disabled fron pvp/bg combat?</blockquote><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote>No.How boring BGs would be if everything was as easy as some of the requests that litter this forum suggest it "should be."And no, I don't have an SK of any level.Learn to enjoy challenges for cryin' outloud.</blockquote>Asked. Answered. You forgot. Keep raging.</blockquote>Quite honestly, If you think SKs are fine the way they are for BGs and PvP then I dont' know what to tell you. If a challenge is fighting a class that is so overpowered that a 4 year old rolling his face against a keyboard and still stay alive on his/her own for an excessive amount of time and still output pretty good DPS then. Something needs to be done about them and crusaders in general, but I don't think bloodletter is where they should aim, it should be other things that need re-evaluated, but not really BL.Also whoever said VoM isn't that good, It is since it's % based healing that is affected by potency and crit bonus.

Trynt

05-17-2010, 08:33 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually this thread started by a simple question, from which you have replied to 3 or 4 times and have still failed to answer.I thought you bluebies were smarter than that. Oh well derail QQ more.</blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Should bloodletter be disabled fron pvp/bg combat?</blockquote><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote>No.How boring BGs would be if everything was as easy as some of the requests that litter this forum suggest it "should be."And no, I don't have an SK of any level.Learn to enjoy challenges for cryin' outloud.</blockquote>Asked. Answered. You forgot. Keep raging.</blockquote>Quite honestly, If you think SKs are fine the way they are for BGs and PvP then I dont' know what to tell you. If a challenge is fighting a class that is so overpowered that a 4 year old rolling his face against a keyboard and still stay alive on his/her own for an excessive amount of time and still output pretty good DPS then. Something needs to be done about them and crusaders in general, but I don't think bloodletter is where they should aim, it should be other things that need re-evaluated, but not really BL.Also whoever said VoM isn't that good, It is since it's % based healing that is affected by potency and crit bonus.</blockquote>This, I agree with. Obviously, this post was specific to BL though. I wouldn't shed a tear for crusaders if their damage output was tweaked. That said, I still stand by the sentiment that calling for nerfs is pretty weak and cheesy. And this forum has no shortage of people calling for nerfs. And I think Guards and Necros need a boost too.

Stuckx

05-17-2010, 08:38 PM

<cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually this thread started by a simple question, from which you have replied to 3 or 4 times and have still failed to answer.I thought you bluebies were smarter than that. Oh well derail QQ more.</blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Should bloodletter be disabled fron pvp/bg combat?</blockquote><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote>No.How boring BGs would be if everything was as easy as some of the requests that litter this forum suggest it "should be."And no, I don't have an SK of any level.Learn to enjoy challenges for cryin' outloud.</blockquote>Asked. Answered. You forgot. Keep raging.</blockquote>Quite honestly, If you think SKs are fine the way they are for BGs and PvP then I dont' know what to tell you. If a challenge is fighting a class that is so overpowered that a 4 year old rolling his face against a keyboard and still stay alive on his/her own for an excessive amount of time and still output pretty good DPS then. Something needs to be done about them and crusaders in general, but I don't think bloodletter is where they should aim, it should be other things that need re-evaluated, but not really BL.Also whoever said VoM isn't that good, It is since it's % based healing that is affected by potency and crit bonus.</blockquote>This, I agree with. Obviously, this post was specific to BL though. I wouldn't shed a tear for crusaders if their damage output was tweaked. That said, I still stand by the sentiment that calling for nerfs is pretty weak and cheesy. And this forum has no shortage of people calling for nerfs. And I think Guards and Necros need a boost too.</blockquote>So you're one of those people that think,rather than nerfing one class that desperately needs it..the devs should take months out of their time to buff the other 23 classes? Absolute fail. Nerfs are sometimes necessary.

MaCloud1032

05-17-2010, 09:09 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>So you all think its balenced that an SK has to be killed 3 times before you can actually kill them?What other class gets 2 free extra lives?As if all the other stuff they get wasnt enough, they get 3 full lifes too.I have an SK.I play him all the time, he is stupid. Sure hes fun, but its kinda dumb that every BG match is dominated by SK's because each group has atleast 2 of them.Why is this stuff so hard for Sony to understand?Soooo many things that are so broken OP about em its not even funny.BG arent that much fun for everyone else who isnt an SK or even a pally because you have to fight 3 or 4 of them in every match you run.I lol at because its dispellable, its balenced lolololololol.</blockquote>I was simply answering this question. Zerkers get 2 free extra lives. Does this make this class OP as well. What about healers have 2 emergancy heals and 2 death prevents that basicaly give them free lives. You also asked what else the sk has to do other then put bloodletter up and get free lives. Well for one they ahve to stay by at least 2 other group members. They also have to be waring gear that is 1 teir below current par(as good as it is number wise it stucks) the rest of the group also has to have HP to siphon. When i said again it was because of your blind rage. I know who your sk is and you were good with him ill give ya that. And ya cursaders are stupid easy to play. They werent always this easy. It use to be a class the required skill to play and time stuff out. I personaly hate what the class has become. On my sk ill put out the most dmg in a bg, recive the most, and ushaly 2nd on the heal output. This is as broke as it gets. I also have yet to have my bloodletter trigger and save my butt its ushaly dispelled or some other sk over rides mine.If you want to "nerf" the sk's start with cast time's increase them to what they use to be. Reaver shouldnt be able to be modified to increase heals. Harm touch and tap veins shouldnt be master 2 choices. Increase harm touch timer to 15min(like it use to be) furver shouldnt up or spell dmg when its on. If its goin to be on the spell for 10 sec after furver runs out it can up the spell dmg. to make up for all of this increase our DoT dmg by just a smidge. That would at the very least even out the class more. But leave bloodletter alone. It is not OP in any way.The new censor thingy sucks prime time tv can say a s s but icant say it in a forum..............?

Trynt

05-17-2010, 09:48 PM

<cite>Stuckx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>This, I agree with. Obviously, this post was specific to BL though. I wouldn't shed a tear for crusaders if their damage output was tweaked. That said, I still stand by the sentiment that calling for nerfs is pretty weak and cheesy. And this forum has no shortage of people calling for nerfs. And I think Guards and Necros need a boost too.</blockquote>So you're one of those people that think,rather than nerfing one class that desperately needs it..the devs should take months out of their time to buff the other 23 classes? Absolute fail. Nerfs are sometimes necessary.</blockquote>I mentioned 2 classes that need a buff. Your fail reading comprehension could use a buff too, I guess.

ailen

05-18-2010, 01:51 AM

let it be known that its been said before, but I'll say it again.never argue with a fool in public, because the public doesn't know which one the fool is.You need only look at the influx of shadowknights in the past year, watch or participate in a few fights where a shadowknight is standing for what seems like an eternity against a full group of players, watch a shadowknight parse higher than a warlock, heal for more than some healers, and tell me, as a "tank" class if that has anything to do with balance.They have said time and time again they balance for "group vs group" ... I really can't buy that. They don't seem to balance for anything. They introduced mechanics into this game last year that were "crack" to keep people from leaving the game. Now they have this game in a state where I'm sure they know it needs to be fixed, problem is, WHOLESALE nerfs across the board are what are needed, not BUFFING other classes. The game is too extreme right now. You have ridiculous damage output which in turn requires ridiculous mitigation and ridiculous heals to counter. This is mostly because of gear. The difference between how powerful a person that "HAS" vs a person who "DOESN'T HAVE" is such a huge gap that its really not manageable. Problem is, gear is what causes subs to get renewed. GRINDING gear is what this game has become.... need to create new and exciting carrots for people to chase.. THAT is what has broken balance in PVP. Nothing more.

Naggasaki

05-18-2010, 09:53 AM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darksavanna@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Again paill zerkers vision of madness is a self buff put up that is a auto rez. Do reseach before making blanket statments. Vision of madness requires the zerker to be berserk and pook they pop up with a massive amount of incombat health regen.</blockquote>Again?How about I never mention Zerker, not even once. So maybe you should L2R before making blanket statments.Of course I know nothing about zerkers because Iv never played one so why would I even comment on them????I love the poster who said bloodletter does nothing for them solo. LOL This is the BG section please tell me exactly what you do in BG's thats solo??? yea thats what I thought.....</blockquote>Sir, YOU are the person that brought 'PvP' into the equation in your opening post. You stated that it should be disabled in PvP and BG's. So, before you start flame coring me for going OT with this, I suggest you re-familiarize yourself with your own post before going off the deep end.

Wytie

05-18-2010, 12:27 PM

<cite>Naggasaki@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darksavanna@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Again paill zerkers vision of madness is a self buff put up that is a auto rez. Do reseach before making blanket statments. Vision of madness requires the zerker to be berserk and pook they pop up with a massive amount of incombat health regen.</blockquote>Again?How about I never mention Zerker, not even once. So maybe you should L2R before making blanket statments.Of course I know nothing about zerkers because Iv never played one so why would I even comment on them????I love the poster who said bloodletter does nothing for them solo. LOL This is the BG section please tell me exactly what you do in BG's thats solo??? yea thats what I thought.....</blockquote>Sir, YOU are the person that brought 'PvP' into the equation in your opening post. You stated that it should be disabled in PvP and BG's. So, before you start flame coring me for going OT with this, I suggest you re-familiarize yourself with your own post before going off the deep end.</blockquote>You are going to have to do better than that, why even post a reply?Bg/pvp combat are the same thing. Hense the title of the thread.......

Naggasaki

05-18-2010, 12:45 PM

<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" /> Apparently you haven't been playing EQ2.OH...BTW, it's spelled 'hence'. But good try.

Wytie

05-18-2010, 04:04 PM

<cite>Naggasaki@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" /> Apparently you haven't been playing EQ2.OH...BTW, it's spelled 'hence'. But good try.</blockquote>Care to elaborate?Sounds like your sk is butt hurt by this thread? but hey, atleast you corrected my spelling on the internet right?

Davngr1

05-18-2010, 05:12 PM

no.every tank has death saves.

MaCloud1032

05-18-2010, 11:07 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Naggasaki@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" /> Apparently you haven't been playing EQ2.OH...BTW, it's spelled 'hence'. But good try.</blockquote>Care to elaborate?Sounds like your sk is butt hurt by this thread? but hey, atleast you corrected my spelling on the internet right?</blockquote>Actualy it sounds like a sk butt hurt you. Its ok you can talk about it. Show me on the dolly where the SK harm touched you.

bRz

05-19-2010, 12:40 AM

<cite>Darksavanna@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Naggasaki@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" /> Apparently you haven't been playing EQ2.OH...BTW, it's spelled 'hence'. But good try.</blockquote>Care to elaborate?Sounds like your sk is butt hurt by this thread? but hey, atleast you corrected my spelling on the internet right?</blockquote>Actualy it sounds like a sk butt hurt you. Its ok you can talk about it. Show me on the dolly where the SK harm touched you.</blockquote>I approve

Naggasaki

05-19-2010, 01:39 AM

Butt hurt? Not in the least. I admit that SK's are OP. What is frustrating is, it would appear, that someone from Nagafen has taken something that they don't like about TIER EIGHT SK's and thrown it on the forum that they think will get the most attention. Also, your lack of knowledge regarding the facts of your own post astounds even the most simple minded button masher. Any level 90 SK still open PvP'ing in the TSO PvP armor is cannon fodder, to say the least. So allow me to fill these gaps in your knowledge base since you are apparently incapable of gathering information prior to jumping into a 'DEVS HELP ME I FAIL AT PVP' rant. Tier 8...aka TSO, PvP gear gives you two triggers of Bloodletter (one extra trigger). This only happens if you have two or more group members, and furthermore, they must actually be NEAR the Shadowknight when it triggers. This 'Bloodletter' rips health from the rest of the group members in order to keep the Shadowknight from dying completely. In addition to this, when Bloodletter triggers, the Reaver buff is canceled. Essentially taking the Shadowknight out of the fight for the duration of rebuffing. And to yet further your addled mind regarding this 'free lives' ability, it requires that the Shadowknight be wearing at a minimum, four pieces of Tier 8 PvP armor. Now I will admit that there may be adornments out there for Raid Gear, which I do not have nor have I looked into as of yet, that give an extra trigger of Bloodletter. However, I doubt you have encountered many SK's wearing these adornments and or gear in BG's or Open PvP yet. In addition, while BG's fits the literal definition of Player vs. Player, it is in no way EQ2 PvP. Is that elaborated enough yet or do you require pictures and a chalkboard with complex equations on it as well?

Callim

05-19-2010, 01:44 AM

Bloodletter is actually pretty well balanced considering every tank gets some form of emergency death save.Pros:It heals for full health.You don't need to time it within a certain amount of time before hand (not sure if other tanks have to use it or lose it on theirs).Cons:Only deathsave that is dispellable and not just dispellable, but the vast majority of the time it is always down due to the silly amount of crusaders tossing doom aura in BGs these days, not to mention the rest of the classes that get dispells. It is always dispelled if a dispell lands, period, it is not random.Only deathsave that will not work if the tank is solo. If you catch a SK alone, it won't work. If (as is usually the case) the SK is the last man standing due to personal survivability with the group dead around him it won't work.Only deathsave that harms the group at all, and its drain can be a killer in pvp, especially if you drain 2 people not a full 5, their contribution is far higher.Only deathsave that is limited to 1 person of that class per group or raid. If the enemy team has 8 SK's in a raid of 24, only 1 can have BL up, the rest are out of luck.Only deathsave that cannot be cast during combat. If you have an epic marathon fight that doesn't end (Ganak anybody?) 20 minutes can go by and BL will never be usable.All in all I think its balanced really well, infact the limit of 1 per group or raid isn't even a balance aspect its just laziness on soe's part, but considering every SK whine starts with "there are so many in each BG/Pvp!", well thats a huge strike against it as being at all beneficial.On a personal note I can probably count the number of times its stayed up long enough to proc at all in a BG on one hand, when it does happen I am shocked, last time it cost me a flag cap because I was too surprised to immediately start running again when I popped up lol.

Kyaaadaa

05-19-2010, 04:54 AM

kay,I been looking at this thread a couple times now... something here seems lost. BG... PvP... not the same. I don't care how you tag it, bag it or burn it, it ain't the same. BG is "heres a map, theres some people, we might give you a goal, have fun!" Its organized (kinda?) with limitations and a rule set, points system, and little quirks that are off the norm from normal EQ2 game mechanics.PvP is nasty, self-centered, heartless, ruthless murderering of another person to only turn around, wiz on their body, do a quick corpse hump, then hope you see them again just to repeat the process. There is no set map, its completely open world. The aggro range is crazy (if your in zone, you're aggroable), and the rules are THERE ARE NO RULES! If you can kill em by any means necessary, do it. Potions, poisons, jump them when they pulled a named mob or a huge train, it doesn't matter.SK's are OP. We know this, doing a re-shove-down-our-throats just malkes non-SKs go "BLARGH!!" and SKs go "ITS NOT THAT BAD!" Should SKs get Bloodletter in PvP? If they use it in open world, god help them, it just makes my parties time of killing the others that much easier (cause if bloodletter goes off, they got a party, and I'm not stoopid enough to take on a party solo). If they use it in BG, especially something like Klak, that relic holder gonna go boom quick, their support is now pushing yellow, and odds are that SK has burnt through his clickies already... take it to their face.

Fluffyhairball

05-19-2010, 07:05 AM

Hey allI really dont see issue whit bloodletter. I think it procks 1/20 times i have had it up before fight. usualy fights last that long that its been stripped off, but tbh if ur gona nerf sk please start there.I think lot of people thinks its our bloodletter that procks when sk uses his tap when hes low on healt (5%) coz it heals him up to 100% on cluster fight.Anyway really slow work day and i just used couple mins posting useless things so im happyLove Fluffy

Kyaaadaa

05-19-2010, 08:02 AM

<cite>Fluffyfireball@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think lot of people thinks its our bloodletter that procks when sk uses his tap when hes low on healt (5%) coz it heals him up to 100% on cluster fight.</blockquote>Forgot about that Tap Veins guy, makes sense though.

Bremer

05-20-2010, 07:49 AM

Bloodletter should work in PVP/BG, but not the raid adornment. SOE said, that PVP/BG gear shouldn't interfere with PVE raid gear and vice versa. So it makes absolutely no sense at all, why they allow the PVE raid adornment to work in BG/PVP. (And this applies to all PVE raid adornments, not only the Bloodletter one)

Orthureon

05-20-2010, 01:07 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Quite honestly, If you think SKs are fine the way they are for BGs and PvP then I dont' know what to tell you. If a challenge is fighting a class that is so overpowered that a 4 year old rolling his face against a keyboard and still stay alive on his/her own for an excessive amount of time and still output pretty good DPS then. Something needs to be done about them and crusaders in general, but I don't think bloodletter is where they should aim, it should be other things that need re-evaluated, but not really BL.</blockquote>An Inquisitor complaining about an SK... When is the last time an SK could beat you 1v1 just wondering? Also, how many people can you take on before it is overwhelming and you die? These are both honest questions. I played an inquis (Xazavius aka Exilon) for a long time and he was in terrible gear, yet still very powerful.Some people might be upset when the Crusaders finally get their due nerf and their class is next on the list. I personally cannot wait for Crusaders to be toned down, it means more masters for mine!

Orthureon

05-20-2010, 01:10 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bloodletter should work in PVP/BG, but not the raid adornment. SOE said, that PVP/BG gear shouldn't interfere with PVE raid gear and vice versa. So it makes absolutely no sense at all, why they allow the PVE raid adornment to work in BG/PVP. (And this applies to all PVE raid adornments, not only the Bloodletter one)</blockquote>They should simply add the focuses to the current list of blue adornments and make them only work in PVP. I really do not see how SOE thinks it is balanced to let raiders have those huge advantages in PVP/BGs. I give it a few weeks before others start crying foul.

Orthureon

05-20-2010, 01:17 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do SK's really need to have 2 FULL extra lives in pvp and BG?I dont think so.Many other classes have OP abilitys removed from pvp/bg and this should be one of them.Inc SK rage..../discuss</blockquote>I agree with you, Crusaders (not just Sks) should be toned down, but I have a question for you. Were you here asking for a nerf to Sorcerors damage output when you were doing over the top damage in PVP/BGs?

Yimway

05-20-2010, 01:30 PM

<cite>Tubby@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cons:Only deathsave that is dispellable and not just dispellable, but the vast majority of the time it is always down due to the silly amount of crusaders tossing doom aura in BGs these days, not to mention the rest of the classes that get dispells. It is always dispelled if a dispell lands, period, it is not random.</blockquote>This is an extremely valid point, but let me remind you that in any given gears group, you very well may not have any classes capable of stripping the debuff. So, in those instances it's 100% and if you've got the raid gear it appears to be up to 3 procs.The fact that it can be dispelled easy going against specific classes isn't significantly relevant for its impact across general gameplay.Also, it's far more useful than many other Tank's death save. I suggest you check out guardians for their pro/con list.Ultimately though, I don't propose that BL be changed, I only propose that all your % based heals be converted to static amounts.

Orthureon

05-20-2010, 01:45 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tubby@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cons:Only deathsave that is dispellable and not just dispellable, but the vast majority of the time it is always down due to the silly amount of crusaders tossing doom aura in BGs these days, not to mention the rest of the classes that get dispells. It is always dispelled if a dispell lands, period, it is not random.</blockquote>Ultimately though, I don't propose that BL be changed, I only propose that all your % based heals be converted to static amounts.</blockquote>Sks have three percent based heals, Bloodletter, Reaver and Blood Siphoning, all three cannot crit. The problem with static heals that you propose is that they can all be affected by stats. If you say then "oh well they should not be affected by stats", that would be very biased and people would rightfully complain. I agree Crusaders need to be nerfed. However, I think it has to be a cumulative nerf, not just specific skills it needs to be a little off of each thing... well and perhaps a lot off of some abilities.

Yimway

05-20-2010, 01:49 PM

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sks have three percent based heals, Bloodletter, Reaver and Blood Siphoning, all three cannot crit. The problem with static heals that you propose is that they can all be affected by stats. If you say then "oh well they should not be affected by stats", that would be very biased and people would rightfully complain. I agree Crusaders need to be nerfed. However, I think it has to be a cumulative nerf, not just specific skills it needs to be a little off of each thing... well and perhaps a lot off of some abilities.</blockquote>No, they should be affected by stats, and balanced accordingly.Surely you can understand how big a difference Reaver is on a 15k SK vs a 30k SK.

Alima_Tunare

05-20-2010, 03:03 PM

My husband runs an SK and most the time in BGs hes running BL free cuz there are so many SKs in the event. Only one SK per group can run BL. The trouble with wanting all these special abilities removed is that it opens the door for every class. Take away FD, locked targets, no targets from brawlers, detaunt from scouts-my healer can only use one weapon, maybe remove scout dual wield!, heals from healers, heck wards...omg. I still think a zerker is a worse fight than an SK, a templar can be a handful, brawlers, theyre like the F-ing energizer bunny, they just keep going. But it all makes it entertaining.

Orthureon

05-21-2010, 10:11 AM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sks have three percent based heals, Bloodletter, Reaver and Blood Siphoning, all three cannot crit. The problem with static heals that you propose is that they can all be affected by stats. If you say then "oh well they should not be affected by stats", that would be very biased and people would rightfully complain. I agree Crusaders need to be nerfed. However, I think it has to be a cumulative nerf, not just specific skills it needs to be a little off of each thing... well and perhaps a lot off of some abilities.</blockquote>No, they should be affected by stats, and balanced accordingly.Surely you can understand how big a difference Reaver is on a 15k SK vs a 30k SK.</blockquote>I fully understand the difference in healing potential with greater HP, and I am not sure if you are referring to my HP listed on my sig... That is mentored HP lol anyways, yeah the more HP the more you heal with Reaver.

MaCloud1032

05-21-2010, 10:24 AM

Also with reaver though the amount of health lost is a % so the more health you have the more dmg you recive.

Yimway

05-21-2010, 11:43 AM

Yes, I fully recognize the mechanics.Just as I fully recognize my SK can self heal himself for roughly 6x his HP pool before dieing. As a fighter class, I recognize that probably beyond the ability I should have. (note: this doesn't include all the damage prevented, just healed).

goryf

05-24-2010, 07:11 AM

Hey. Guess what. I play a lvl 90 SK and BG alot. BL is NO where near anoyying as killing a bru a million times. For SK BL doesn't mean you have to kill us over and over. We (or at least i do as an sk) have a master'd Tap Viens AoE. I can be at 0% health but as long as the game registers my spell going off a blibk before i die it looks just like a backed BL. I use this then maintain and maybe jusmp back up in health with a solo targeted tap vains with my nuke (life tap aa full) my 2 fast cassting AoE spells (added together they are almost enough to bring me back to full health alone) with a bit of SK furor which added with some other AA abilities i have the 100% parrying that i do with furor feeds me loads more health.so really it is not BL that makes you kill an SK over and over and over. there is a possobility that you are facing a SK that knows how to play his class and knows his spells enough to cast all these at certain times so you can almost heal yourself more than a healer (i have the end BG parses where i out heal alot of healers). match this some raid gear that adorn for extra BL trigger, the ability to stand in the middle of a fight have noone target or damage you so you can cast BL again (this usually is needed for REALLY long fights).you are not complaining about how SK BL makes it a challange to keep a good SK down. you are complaining that you may not be facing idiots. if you want to play dumb ppl then move to WoW. I play EQ2 because this is where the ppl LEARN how best thier classes are played. we don't just run around hitting random spells hoping to do enough dps to kill before being killed.STOP QQas i walked you through the basic concepts of my survival tactics for BG you should see it is not BL. its SKILL and SMARTS.oh and all this is not including reaver.and yes i am mostly master'd with nothing less than xpert

Naggasaki

05-24-2010, 08:50 AM

I'm amused. You can give it a rest now guys. The original poster lost intrest in this thread about a week or so ago. He's out in BG's trying to find other skilled players to nerf.

Slaspen

05-24-2010, 10:43 AM

Killing an SK is easy, and if bloodletter triggers twice or more, who cares, just keep on killing...

Wytie

05-24-2010, 11:27 AM

<cite>Naggasaki@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm amused. You can give it a rest now guys. The original poster lost intrest in this thread about a week or so ago. He's out in BG's trying to find other skilled players to nerf.</blockquote>Actually I read this thread all the time.... I just havent found much thats even worth responding to.I still have my OP SK and I still completly dominate BG's with him. Its not even fun sometimes how unkillable he is.After quite a few BG's on him I can say BL doesnt get to trigger very often, but thats just because you have so many other SK's in BG's you all are fighting for it to keep it active. Or when you are tanking 15 people all by yourself it tends to get removed off of you or there is no one else left alive from your group to trigger it since you are by yourself fighting that x2, x3, that by the time you die there isnt anyone alive left to trigger it for you.I have had an SK for years, no longer my main but I have kept him AA and decently gear'd and this is from my experiences with him in BG's since they were added.

Davish_Darkwolf

05-24-2010, 01:05 PM

<cite>Trynt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>BG arent that much fun for everyone else who isnt an SK or even a pally because you have to fight 3 or 4 of them in every match you run.</blockquote>Speak for yourself, and exaggerate less. Challenges are fun for some of us.</blockquote>So a player acts like somekind of Boss to the rest of the classes and we all can raid him like in PvE?Is that the kind of challenge you love?The real challenge here is to balance the new PvP aspect of a game that was PvE all the way (except PvP servers) for 6 years in a row.The real challenge here is to keep things BALANCED in PvP (and PvP only speaking) so that equally geared tanks can have a equal chances towards other tank classes.ATM PvP is completely unbalanced regarding SKs and even Paladins.Want a challenge? Play a guardian in PvP, now that's a real challenge atm (in a most boring and frustrating way).