What Guards need....?

[Bruener]

<p><strong>What changes could be done to increase the "fun factor" of Guards while staying close to SOE's vision, i.e. class description, of Guards?</strong></p><p>Utility: So where I think the biggest room for growth for the Guard class is in this category.  Based on the description the Guard is supposed to be providing leadership and protection to their allies.  There need to be more group based and maybe even raid-based abilities so that when a Guard is present the overall survivability of their allies goes up.  Some ideas off the top of my head would be a castable group stoneskin.  Something a Guard can use on their group to stoneskin one hit.  Great for inc AEs.  It could be on a 2 or 3 min recast and be a stoneskin that is only used when target group friend takes damage more than 15% of their health.  An ability like this alone would be of great use and really help out a raid quite a bit.  Also it would reinforce the Guard as the primary MT since he would be able to really help protect the core group of a raid.</p><p>Agro: While I am of the believe that Guard agro isn't nearly as bad as some people like to make it out as I do think that they could use a little more and that another AE type tool would go a long ways.  I have mentioned in other threads the idea of changing Recapture to an ability that affects all classes not just other fighters.  The idea would be to keep the current ability while adding into the ability that Recapture would lower the hate position of all the Guards group members by a specific number of hate positions.  To make it extremely affective in heroic gameplay it could be as high as 5 hate positions.  There could also be a large AE taunt tied to the ability of 5k or something that would help for initial agro.  This would be a huge benefit in heroic content and also maintain great use in raid content.  The other idea for hate would be what I have noticed some Guards that have been around a lot complain about specifically.  The idea that in defensive stance they should generate just as much agro as they do in offensive stance.  Perhaps an easy fix for this would be an AA ability taht while in defensive stance adds a taunt value to each combat art cast.  Not sure what kind of number it would need to be but thinking if it was like a 1k taunt on every CA and since it is an ability it would be affected by Crits, Crit bonus, and Potency you would be talking about a huge amount of threat on each CA.  Basically this would allow them to be threat machines while in defensive.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Edit to add some other ideas that people listed:</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">1. For more raid desireability they should get an ability called Commanding Orders or something similar.  Basically for every person in the Guardians group/raid it increases the potency of the group/raid by .5%.  That would be a total of 12% for an entire raid.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">2. For aggro they should get an ability thats sort of a mixture of Sigil of Heroism that the pallies have, and Fanaticism that Inquisitors get.  Could make it an aggro siphon from the group (maybe raid also) that has a power drain over time.  Could also give it a benefit where if a group member gets hit by a mob, there is a 25% chance the mob is forced to target the Guardian for 2 seconds.  Make the recurring power cost steep enough where the Guardian couldn't just run around with this up non-stop so that it wouldn't be OP in PVP.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">3. It's not really a Guard specific change but Mitigation needs to be rethought.  To be quite honest <em>every</em> stat that can be easily capped needs to be rethought.  Whats the point of having 2 temp mit buffs when I'm over cap on mit for every fight it's likely to matter?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">4. </span><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td width="100%"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/styles/EQ2/eq2_default/images/common/icon_minipost.gif" border="0" width="12" height="9" /> <span><span style="font-size: xx-small;">05/13/2010 10:20:40 </span><span><span style="font-size: x-small;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: xx-small;">   Subject: Re:What Guards need....? </span></span></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"><span style="font-size: xx-small; color: #ff0000;"><hr /></span></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2"><span><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">It's not really a Guard specific change but Mitigation needs to be rethought.  To be quite honest <em>every</em> stat that can be easily capped needs to be rethought.  Whats the point of having 2 temp mit buffs when I'm over cap on mit for every fight it's likely to matter?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Our raid-wide buff is completely useless, it is both useless because no-one ever avoids a hit thanks to defense and because no-one needs defense.  Make it a limited deathsave-other with attached target force/positional increase on death/dmg</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">5.</span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ff0000;">1) Group Stoneskin. Awsome idea! Guards already have the ability in Guard Sphere. Give Guards a AA that improves the %'s on it. Instead of a 25% chance to SS, make it +10% per rank, 5 ranks. that would give a 75% chance to proc SS every 3 mins or so for urself and Group. Put it in the Guardian Tree and replace "Got Your Back".</span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ff0000;">2) Increase the guardians Sheild Bash into a kicking CA. Make Useing a Sheild for Guards hella good. I really liked the TSO Raid 4 peice bonus of +25%(?) to block for 15s. Increase the damage, maby unaviodable?, and add Block % to it. Acts as a short term buff + more single target threat.</span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ff0000;">3) Increase the Mythical proc. Jesus the Guard Mythical effect is HORRIABLE. and the buffs we got from it was dam near useless. Increse the Proc or the Duration of the anti-effect on it and make it a perminent 10% damage reduction. Add a passive hate component that ALL OTHER fighters have on theirs.</span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ff0000;">4) Rework Hold the Line. make it proc on Attack instead of on hit.</span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ff0000;">5) Turn the Stamina Buff into a passive Ward in PvP combat.</span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ff0000;">6) Make the Guard be able to Open AE Force De-target 3sec 10 Targets in PvP. unique ability that would be well used.</span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ff0000;">7) Make Plant unresistable except for Epics.</span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ff0000;">6. What if Guard was given a AA, etc that would make it so all our CA's, taunts, etc would hit up to 3 targets if wielding a 2hander?</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">7. I was thinking some on Raid Buff... why not add mitigation to raid members?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">8. </span><span><span style="color: #ff0000;"> Move reversal hate proc to our defensive stance.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Add weapon bonus to STA line while wearing a shield / 2h (old reversal AA).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Move the small damage proc from reversal to Offensive stance.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">9. Change Hold the Line by adding another trigger to it.  On a successful avoidance check proc the hate across the encounter.  So as avoidance goes up, AE (encounter) agro goes up also.</span></p></span></td></tr></tbody></table></p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p>I honestly don't know anymore.</p><p>I really only play my Guard when I duo-box stupid easy instances like Library and Conserv with my girlfriend and her duo-boxed toons so most of my views on how the tanks stack up and who needs help is from the perspective on my raid main which is an Assassin.</p><p>My thoughts on Guardian needing help or not needing help change each day. If I isolate myself and only raid with my assassin or only do the duo-boxed group stuff then everything seems fine.  My Guard is the meatshield and I control the aggro.</p><p>But if I go out and group with other fighters I see just how frustrating and boring running instances with the Guard are by comparison.  If I imagine any other fighter in place of my Guard in our boxed groups.....the things we can do and the speed we can do it in tripples to include much more than those two ease instances.</p><p>I think at a minimum the Guardian class and game itself needs changes so that what defines a Guardian is actually of value to a instance group.  I cant speak about all the other fighters but I know I have found myself often saying .....hmm we really could have used a SK on that fight.......or man I bet a Bruiser would have really owned on that fight.  There is not a single heroic instance or encounter out there where I found myself saying....man really glad we had a Guard.</p><p>Personally I think SOE has made heroic content too trivial and easy and quick...thus removing the advantage of playing a rock like Guardian.   Mobs in heroic instances just dont hit hard enough or fast enough for the Guardian advantage to matter.</p><p>So maybe the fix is not with the classes but with the content itself.</p><p>Ok sorry for the tangent....not really what the thread was about.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>Oh I came up with another idea to really help Guards move along.  Here it is, its brilliant really....</p><p><em>How about instead of just QQ'ing in every thread about how jealous you are of SKs you actually come up with some ideas of your own to help your class out.</em></p><p>I know, its simple but brilliant.  Maybe some will catch on someday....</p>

[arksun]

<p>TBH the mechanics dev knows... its been said in beta through post and PM's, its not like reposting everything thats been said will magically change it.</p><p>Mechanics dev has posted on the topic how many times now? .... thats right.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>TBH the mechanics dev knows... its been said in beta through post and PM's, its not like reposting everything thats been said will magically change it.</p><p>Mechanics dev has posted on the topic how many times now? .... thats right.</p></blockquote><p>Well Digg how hard would it be to post the ideas here again?</p>

[Kroglar]

<p>Couple of ideas:</p><p>For more raid desireability they should get an ability called Commanding Orders or something similar.  Basically for every person in the Guardians group/raid it increases the potency of the group/raid by .5%.  That would be a total of 12% for an entire raid.</p><p>For aggro they should get an ability thats sort of a mixture of Sigil of Heroism that the pallies have, and Fanaticism that Inquisitors get.  Could make it an aggro siphon from the group (maybe raid also) that has a power drain over time.  Could also give it a benefit where if a group member gets hit by a mob, there is a 25% chance the mob is forced to target the Guardian for 2 seconds.  Make the recurring power cost steep enough where the Guardian couldn't just run around with this up non-stop so that it wouldn't be OP in PVP.</p><p>Might be sort of out there, but just a couple of thoughts.</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>TBH the mechanics dev knows... its been said in beta through post and PM's, its not like reposting everything thats been said will magically change it.</p><p>Mechanics dev has posted on the topic how many times now? .... thats right.</p></blockquote><p>Well Digg how hard would it be to post the ideas here again?</p></blockquote><p>Are you serious? If the guy has been told since beta about problems and its what 4+ months into xpac and not even a "we are working on it" I for one am not going to waste more time with it. Instead I will just play my zerker and have fun playing this game. Everyone forgets that ... we pay money to enjoy ourselves.... not to do their work for them.</p>

[steelbadger]

<p>It's not really a Guard specific change but Mitigation needs to be rethought.  To be quite honest <em>every</em> stat that can be easily capped needs to be rethought.  Whats the point of having 2 temp mit buffs when I'm over cap on mit for every fight it's likely to matter?</p><p>Our raid-wide buff is completely useless, it is both useless because no-one ever avoids a hit thanks to defense and because no-one needs defense.  Make it a limited deathsave-other with attached target force/positional increase on death/dmg.  Kinda like Sentry Watch but perma-buff and only capable of proccing once every 20-30 seconds or so.</p>

[YummiOger]

<p><span ><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/user/profile.m?user_id=99854"><strong><span style="font-size: x-small; color: #3333ff;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Bruener</span></span></strong></a> im actually impressed u took the time to post with some honest merit to try improve Guards. Yes, it does suck that the Guards are in a corner as u put it, which is so true, piegon holed into a single mode of advantagious game play. </span></p><p><span >I remember the T5 t6 t7 SK. No love for a long time... thats y i rerolled as a Zerk in T7, tired of SOE giving improvment after improvment to the other tanks. Well Guardians are now at that point and has been incoming for about 2 years. </span></p><p><span >HOWEVER. the Guardian still should have 1 major advantage. They should still be the Most survivable MT for Raids. That should not loose that niche. Slight improvements to the guard class should reflect that fact. Guards r behind somewhat, but not as much as Sks were in T6.</span></p><p><span >Weaknesses: AE Aggro, DPS, Multiple damage sources, low raid/group utility. i made this post explaining my thoughts as well - <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?&topic_id=477565">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=477565</a></span></p><p><span >I dont mind SKs and Zerks blowing crazy DPS/Threat on 4/5 mob encounters. NP at all. they should IMO. But the Guard should keep up on 1 or 2 mobs, and Manage Aggro/survival BETTER then them. DPS is a very strong basic game Element, and should count for alot. i can not Aggro Manage something to death, nor Survive it to death. Quite bluntly, DPS Kills Mobs.</span></p><p><span >I like the Group Adjustment ideas. A Guard should protect MTG or his Heroic group at all times. </span></p><p><span >1) Group Stoneskin. Awsome idea! Guards already have the ability in Guard Sphere. Give Guards a AA that improves the %'s on it. Instead of a 25% chance to SS, make it +10% per rank, 5 ranks. that would give a 75% chance to proc SS every 3 mins or so for urself and Group. Put it in the Guardian Tree and replace "Got Your Back".</span></p><p><span >2) Increase the guardians Sheild Bash into a kicking CA. Make Useing a Sheild for Guards hella good. I really liked the TSO Raid 4 peice bonus of +25%(?) to block for 15s. Increase the damage, maby unaviodable?, and add Block % to it. Acts as a short term buff + more single target threat.</span></p><p><span >3) Increase the Mythical proc. Jesus the Guard Mythical effect is HORRIABLE. and the buffs we got from it was dam near useless. Increse the Proc or the Duration of the anti-effect on it and make it a perminent 10% damage reduction. Add a passive hate component that ALL OTHER fighters have on theirs.</span></p><p><span >4) Rework Hold the Line. make it proc on Attack instead of on hit.</span></p><p><span >5) Turn the Stamina Buff into a passive Ward in PvP combat.</span></p><p><span >6) Make the Guard be able to Open AE Force De-target 3sec 10 Targets in PvP. unique ability that would be well used.</span></p><p><span >7) Make Plant unresistable except for Epics.</span></p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p>Just brainstorming here purely from what I think woudl be fun......</p><p>I like 2handers.......I think everyone agrees that the current state of 2handers being a viable weapon choice for either tanking or DPS is pretty sad.</p><p>What if Guard was given a AA, etc that would make it so all our CA's, taunts, etc would hit up to 3 targets if wielding a 2hander?</p>

[Phelon_Skellhound]

<p>Not very knowledgeable about guard ablities but here goes...</p><p>I was thinking some on Raid Buff... why not add mitigation to raid members? Perhaps a small increase to percentage chance block/parry/dodge/defense or any combination there of? Since chance block is uncontested it will probably be the better choice i guess...</p><p>Out of group moderate? Dunno how many concentration slots you guys utilze, but perhaps have it take concentration slots to put on more than one person say 2 or 3 max and make it in group or Raid only? Hmm maybe just 2 hehe *shrug*</p>

[arksun]

<p>Move reversal hate proc to our defensive stance.</p><p>Add weapon bonus to STA line while wearing a shield / 2h (old reversal AA).</p><p>Move the small damage proc from reversal to Offensive stance.</p><p>Would make you want to take in defensive stance (due to hate proc) and use 1h / Shield due to the weapon bonus. Not saying the weapon bonus needs to be = or > crusaders but says crusaders had a 15% weapon bonus 1h/shield / 2h give warriors 10% weapon bonus 1h/shield / 2h.</p><p>This would also give us a reason to use 2h and tank with 1h/shield. By far the hate proc from reversal should be attached to our defensive stance to give more clarity on why we should be using it. And the proc from reversal (dmg) moved to offensive stance with the same requirements for it to proc. (that dmg does not make up a huge portion of dps).</p>

[yadlajoi]

bruener making a thread about guardian in a vain attempt to divert people attention from the fact crusader and SK in particular need a huge nerf back to ROK Status.

[altuslum]

<p>Change Hold the Line by adding another trigger to it.  On a successful avoidance check proc the hate across the encounter.  So as avoidance goes up, AE (encounter) agro goes up also.</p>

[Macross_JR]

<p>Honestly, a couple things need changed.  I see some really nice suggestions.  One suggestion I would like is a change to our O-Stance.  I don't know about Crusaders, but I know the Zerker O-Stance blow's the Guardian one out of the water.  I mean a damage proc associated with it for Zerkers and Guardians get what? More STR....bleh.  Sure we get melee skill buffs, but come on...we need something besides added STR.  That is all we get besides lower DEF.</p><p>As far as agro generation, the sad part of it is, taunts are still broke.  DPS>Taunts hands down.  I do like Digg's suggestion about the stances and moving the damage portion of Reversal to O-Stance and the threat part to D-Stance.  I also like the idea of giving Warriors the weapon bonus for being 1h/shield or for 2h.  But either way, HtL is garbage, when we do get hit, we still have to worry about the proc getting resisted, same with the reversal hate proc.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>Breuner wants to keep SK's right where they are. I do honestly believe he wouldn't scream if Guardians are brought up some also.</p><p>That being said, this isn't as easy as that. Right now Crusaders don't have to make the choice the rest of the fighter community has to. I believe the current state of the Crusaders kind of breaks the game from what it's suppose to be. Other tanks that group with her tell my wifes Assassin all the time they are shocked when she uses her deagro abilities. People don't have to use them when they group with a Crusader. Why did SoE give them these abilities if they don't need them?</p><p>Crusaders maximize survivibility and DPS at the same time. It's not what the game is designed for and shouldn't be what the rest of the fighters have to compete with when looking for a pick up group to waste some time in. As a nicely geared, non-raid, Guardian I have actually had people drop group when they see a Guardian tanking. I do a pretty darn good job of holding agro and most people enjoy groups with me. That being said, I always know that the zone would have gone two times faster if a crusader had been tanking without any chance in the need for healing or buffs at all and that is a fact.</p><p>Just not right. Buff Guardians, nerf crusaders. I don't care, just give us all a 'well rounded fun' class to play.</p>

[Phelon_Skellhound]

<p>There are some pretty good suggestions coming in... please keep thread on track as there are other threads that can debate class or archtype diffferences or annoying nuances... as I am sure other folks know by now... Keep the spot light on the topic at hand, thank you</p><p>Btw did they change the guards death prevent ability so that they dont die after that abilities termination?</p>

[YummiOger]

<p>Gaurdians have no Death Prevent ability.</p><p>WARRIORS have a lv 35 ability called Unyeilding Will. UW does a 1 time ~80% heal and kills u in 36seconds. Both Guards and Zerks have AAs to prevent the Explodeing Heart.</p><p>However Zerks Also have Visions of Madness which is a class specific save.</p>

[Phelon_Skellhound]

<p>Ahh I see thank you for the xplanation... if they have aa to prevent it would seem better if they just changed UW to remove the xploding heart, and change that aa that prevents it into something better...</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>Guardians can put 5 AA's into Unyielding Will and it takes away the exploding heart portion of the ability. It's 46% heal (I believe), lasts like 2.5 minutes and has a ~10 minute recast. It is NOT always up like bloodletter.</p><p>Also, you can't put AA's into that ability until level 81.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>Edited the original post to include many of the ideas people have posted so far.  Please keep them coming in while really trying to stay within the feel of a Guard.....example giving Guards heals would be lame because it is not in the vision of Guards at all.  Instead concentrate on what playing a Guard is all about and come up with some abilities or adjustments that would make them much more enjoyable to play.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oh I came up with another idea to really help Guards move along.  Here it is, its brilliant really....</p><p><em>How about instead of just QQ'ing in every thread about how jealous you are of SKs you actually come up with some ideas of your own to help your class out.</em></p><p>I know, its simple but brilliant.  Maybe some will catch on someday....</p></blockquote><p>You can take any of my suggestions posted in Beta and still look at them now.</p><p>There is no point in putting forward suggestions when no one from SoE is either listening, or motivated to do anything about it.</p><p>My advice to guardians is a consistent message.  If you are not in the MT slot of your current guild, betray or re-roll and you'll be a happier player.</p><p>Cause regardless of any suggestion put forth on these forums, no changes will be made to the class for atleast 10 months, and I suspect the next beta will go about the same as the last one as far as the class goes.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>Guardian fix:</p><p>Guards should out dps parse all AE tanks on single targets they should also have mountains more single target hate.</p>

[Brildean]

<p> I see a change in improved moderate to being made raid wide with a 2% hate transfer from every member in the raid if not fighter. lol wishful thinking <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.. We'd dehate the whole raid and seive hate from the whole raid.. That'd atleast keep us as mt for a little bit. This would solve alot of the issues and keep our dps down. with our humungus survivability we have over all the other tanks. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Brildean]

<p>o and offer us useful raid utility.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>Make the group-wide HP buff a raid-wide HP buff and add another 10k HP to it or so. Increase the duration of reinforcement to 2 hours, and allow it to proc whenever anyone hits a mob, or any engaged mob attacks, or a hate position changes anywhere in the encounter(s).</p>

[Brildean]

<p>Lol since most are complaining about hate.. i figured mine would be an easier fix with out putting us in the shoes of an offensive tank</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Brildean wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Lol since most are complaining about hate.. i figured mine would be an easier fix with out putting us in the shoes of an offensive tank</p></blockquote><p>Tanks should do the same relative dps.  The difference should be some better at ST some at AE's much like wizzys and warlocks.</p>

[Wastura]

<p>I think the hate should be relatively the same for tanks, with some minor differences in AE vs. ST mobs, but not enough to make instances grossly unpleasant on either. SK's should be a bit better at dps than guards at the expense of survivability, pallies should be the same with less survivability traded for some healing, berserkers, compared to a guardian, should do better aoe dps but not lock a single target encounter as tight as a guard, bruisers and monks should be like pally SK but with avoid instead of mit, mit and avoid being redone a little to make them both pertinent. Guards should be able to hard lock single target encounters with a little bleed to DPS classes on AE encounters.</p><p>The whole argument of there being more AE encounters vs ST is worthless when most tanks are blasting through all encounters, ae or st, at the same time. The guard being an exception to "most tanks" doing this. It has become the expectation that these zones should work this way.</p><p>Right now the SK is far exceeding guard in DPS, healing, threat with equal survivability in most encounters with equal healers.</p><p>In ROK our mythical made one of our AA lines amazing, changes to the game have rendered that worthless. We literally have an AA we can't purchase now still on the boards because we haven't been looked at properly since the aa change that also changed the epic. To cap it off, our level 80 new ability was an ability that actually unlocks agro from us in favor of another tank.</p><p>I'm with Atan on this, with whom I so rarely agree, but if you're still a guardian that didn't get grandfathered a main spot in guild raids, roll something else.</p>

[Brildean]

<p>isn't it unusual that other classes can give us temp buffs that proc more threat than our primary taunts. Lol thats the wierdest thing ever. They need to increase provoke and taunting blows by 120% and make them unresistable atleat the threat portion. or give us an aa ability that burns hps and converts it into ae threat for 30 seconds. reusable every 1 minute. 500hp/s for 1500 ae threat a second. and it would give the healers somethin to heal lol.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>I want to be able to maximize my Agro Ability/DPS while I have my shield on. Pretty simple item since it's already a game mechanic.</p>

[MurFalad]

<p>On the suggestion the OP's original comment about making group utility improve makes the most sense, as the alternative of going back to a guardian being the class with the most mitigation will if it means anything relegate SK's, Paladin's, Monks etc to the dustbin again.It also fits with the ethos of being a guardian where we are supposed to be the shield of our group.  For that reason I'd expect a shield from a guardian and go for something awesome like the group stone shield, another option would be a shield spell reflect (borrowed from another game I know), things like that are both fun and powerful.As a guardian of the group I'd beef up intercept, maybe give it a ability for guardians to pull hate off whoever was intercepted?  Overall I'd like to see this sort of design rolled out to the other tanking classes, make aggro/mitigation levels similar and give each a key ability such as AoE tanking with paladins, but then make sure the content does not only cater for one type of tank which is the biggest problem we have today.As for AOE tanking, I really do hope they don't fix guardians by making them SK's, SKs need to be knocked off their easy mode tanking perch not by nerfing the class, but by making the mobs a bit more intelligent and able to work together.  Right now you can do a circuit of a room collecting up all the mobs who then obediently stand in melee range next to the aura based aggro tank and die.  How about instead some that had ranged attacks tried to get out to range?  Roots, stuns, mezzes and good positional tanking would then be more important, and it also makes AoE'ing 4 or so groups more daunting.How about more evil abilities from mobs, stats are borked right now since I've got more survivability in my T2 void shard armour then some tanks do in level 90 legendary, but how about a few hits from mobs being percentages of our health, or unavoidable, these could be the mobs special attacks that we would do well to interrupt or counter.  How about the idea of some mobs being trained swordsmen where they put a debuff to your avoidance then more of them are on you, that solves the problem a bit where the top end of the survival stats currently goes off the scales and isn't needed in an instance.  It also solves the problem where the game gets tediously dull at the top end where a dungeon just becomes another AoE fest where success is just measured by how fast you can run it, some people posting say that they are there right now with their SK's (and I've seen them trivialise dungeons).  I really do actually have some fears about getting too much gear in this game right now as AoE grinding really does not excite me in the slightest, I play for gameplay not only for virtual rewards.The guardian class definitely needs fixing, since the question of what we are supposed to be if not the most mitigation tank was not answered after TSO.  But until the content is fixed to give challenges that give advantages and disadvantages to picking any of the tanking classes, and are not just tailor made for aura based AOE tanking then everyone but Crusaders will always be broken.</p>

[Aull]

<p>What needs to be done for guards or any fighter is each should have pros and cons. Problems are when someone who plays fighter class x witnesses fighter class y use an ability that should be special only to fighter class y jealousy starts. It seems that no player wants to accept that there will be penalties that comes with choosing a particular fighter.</p><p>This all tanks need to be able to tank the same is not the answer. Doing so will only pigonhole all fighters into an area where only a few fighters will be needed for a raid. Not all fighters in a raid can be absorbing the damage from the mob at the same time so it will hinder them even more. Each should be special but not equal.</p>

[Rast]

<p>Some ideas I like for guards would be.</p><p>A group wide intercept with a taunt proc that would help the guard get the mob back off of the person who took the hit.</p><p>A group wide avoidance buff/second chance to block buff, again with a taunt proc to aid the guardian to get the agro back.  Tie this to wearing a shield.</p><p>An increase (slight, but still) to their overall dps.  This would help with their agro generation and also help them still hold agro while wearing a shield.  Perhaps set their taunts to do 25% more agro when wearing a shield, or their dps creates 25% more agro.  Something to give them a benefit while tanking in a shield <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I'm sure there are more ideas out there to help.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>Guardians already have a group wide stone skin called Guardian Sphere. It has a 25% chance of intercepting a hit from anybody in the group. If you use this and an AoE goes off your pretty much dead. I use it all the time when I'm solo and if I know the mobs doesn't AoE I'll use it in a group. You have to remmember that Guardians take the damage based on the intended targest mitigation and resists. So in case you don't get it... IT CAN HURT LIKE HECK! Before I basically quit using it in groups I was getting one shotted all the time from AoE's.</p><p>It does not have a taunt on it and the last thing I want as a Guardian is another button added that is specifically designed to allow me to TRY and get agro back when I can't do my job. People keep wanting to give Guardians more snaps. You know what a snap is? It's a tool you only use when it's apparent you can't do your job. Yes, snaprs are handy when a mob Memwipes. People say Gaudrains have the most snaps. We have the most snaps becasue we can't do our jobs.</p><p>If you didn't catch what I said, I'll say it again. Guardians have more snaps because we can't do our jobs.</p><p>Give us more TPS, up our reacitve threat procs, give us more DPS. I don't care, just give us the ability to do our jobs.</p><p>Don't give us more crap designed to save our bacon when we can't do our jobs. We want to be able to do our jobs just as well as Crusaders and that is not to much to ask. Crusaders coming here recommending that we get mroe snaps or more save the bacon tools are just trying to protect their current position.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Guardians already have a group wide stone skin called Guardian Sphere. It has a 25% chance of intercepting a hit from anybody in the group. If you use this and an AoE goes off your pretty much dead. I use it all the time when I'm solo and if I know the mobs doesn't AoE I'll use it in a group. You have to remmember that Guardians take the damage based on the intended targest mitigation and resists. So in case you don't get it... IT CAN HURT LIKE HECK! Before I basically quit using it in groups I was getting one shotted all the time from AoE's.</p><p>It does not have a taunt on it and the last thing I want as a Guardian is another button added that is specifically designed to allow me to TRY and get agro back when I can't do my job. People keep wanting to give Guardians more snaps. You know what a snap is? It's a tool you only use when it's apparent you can't do your job. Yes, snaprs are handy when a mob Memwipes. People say Gaudrains have the most snaps. We have the most snaps becasue we can't do our jobs.</p><p>If you didn't catch what I said, I'll say it again. Guardians have more snaps because we can't do our jobs.</p><p>Give us more TPS, up our reacitve threat procs, give us more DPS. I don't care, just give us the ability to do our jobs.</p><p>Don't give us more crap designed to save our bacon when we can't do our jobs. We want to be able to do our jobs just as well as Crusaders and that is not to much to ask. Crusaders coming here recommending that we get mroe snaps or more save the bacon tools are just trying to protect their current position.</p></blockquote><p>No, its about more utility really.  Guard Sphere is a good ability but instead of a 25% chance to intercept it should be a straight up 100% chance to stoneskin the group for one hit, perfect for AEs.  Adding a taunt to an intercept ability, especially a group intercept ability definitely is not a snap....it is actually TPS based off of a reactive proc.  Imagine group intercepting with a stoneskin on yourself to absorb the damage and everybody in the group that is hit with the AE creates TPS for you....not only that but it provides you with a little more AE agro control in case something happens to break to smack another character.  Make it a good size taunt like 6k, than when it crits it is just massive amount of hate to the Guard.</p><p>I really don't see where people are making the suggestion of snaps for Guards.  Its more about upp'ing ST Guard DPS a little and increasing hate generation in ST and AE.  Than give a little more defensive group/raid utility to a Guard to really increase the enjoyability of the class.</p><p>What do Crusaders and Zerks have that Guards are envious of.  Its not the simple taking a hit they are envious of because Guards do that real well.  Its the fact that Crusaders and Zerkers enjoy better agro and bring more to their group.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>Agian, more buttons to mash and crap to time perfectly for a Guardian to even be semi-equal to a Crusader. Whereas a Crusaders just goes about their business of killing the begeebes out of stuff and walks on to the next fight.</p><p>That would sure sound balanced from the Crusader side. It's just more crap on the Guardian side. Fix Guardians, don't give us more crap tools to deal with the situation of us not being able to properly do our job. I had to dump dozens of AA's into agro abilities, reactive procs, HTL procs on block, hate gain and I still can't keep agro. I have like 3 hate gain adornments and I run with a pretty high parsing Assassin most times and I still lose agro.</p><p>Guardians are NOT the best choice for raid tanking</p><p>Guardians have the lowest TPS of all fighters</p><p>Guardians have the lowest DPS of all fighters</p><p>There.. fix one of those. Don't give me another stupid ability that makes it so I have to perfectly time an AoE or something to try and fix the fact that I can't do my job.</p>

[Rast]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Guardians already have a group wide stone skin called Guardian Sphere. It has a 25% chance of intercepting a hit from anybody in the group. If you use this and an AoE goes off your pretty much dead. I use it all the time when I'm solo and if I know the mobs doesn't AoE I'll use it in a group. You have to remmember that Guardians take the damage based on the intended targest mitigation and resists. So in case you don't get it... IT CAN HURT LIKE HECK! Before I basically quit using it in groups I was getting one shotted all the time from AoE's.</p><p>It does not have a taunt on it and the last thing I want as a Guardian is another button added that is specifically designed to allow me to TRY and get agro back when I can't do my job. People keep wanting to give Guardians more snaps. You know what a snap is? It's a tool you only use when it's apparent you can't do your job. Yes, snaprs are handy when a mob Memwipes. People say Gaudrains have the most snaps. We have the most snaps becasue we can't do our jobs.</p><p>If you didn't catch what I said, I'll say it again. Guardians have more snaps because we can't do our jobs.</p><p>Give us more TPS, up our reacitve threat procs, give us more DPS. I don't care, just give us the ability to do our jobs.</p><p>Don't give us more crap designed to save our bacon when we can't do our jobs. We want to be able to do our jobs just as well as Crusaders and that is not to much to ask. Crusaders coming here recommending that we get mroe snaps or more save the bacon tools are just trying to protect their current position.</p></blockquote><p>No, I'm trying to come up with more ways to make your class more fun and useful.  I've been where you are bud, I know what it is like.  For years, Paladins said the same thing, just give us the tools to be as effective as Guardians and that it wasn't too much to ask, and we were ignored for years.  I don't like that it has happened to you (though I was gone for most of TSO and the middle of Kunark) either.</p><p>It doesn't justify what happened, but it does put some of us long time pallies into a sypathetic position for you.  That being said, you only commented on 1 of the 4 ideas.  The second had a 'agro' component in it, but it was also to cover for the situations where mem wipes do happen, it gives you an extra chance to protect your healers in that event, something any MT would want.</p><p>I agree, you all need more agro creation.  I'm not even opposed to you all getting more OOE style agro tools.  Maybe even an AoE ToT (Taunt over Time) type of ability.  I agree, you should be able to fit your primary role.</p>

[Rast]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Agian, more buttons to mash and crap to time perfectly for a Guardian to even be semi-equal to a Crusader. Whereas a Crusaders just goes about their business of killing the begeebes out of stuff and walks on to the next fight.</p><p>That would sure sound balanced from the Crusader side. It's just more crap on the Guardian side. Fix Guardians, don't give us more crap tools to deal with the situation of us not being able to properly do our job. I had to dump dozens of AA's into agro abilities, reactive procs, HTL procs on block, hate gain and I still can't keep agro. I have like 3 hate gain adornments and I run with a pretty high parsing Assassin most times and I still lose agro.</p><p>Guardians are NOT the best choice for raid tanking</p><p>Guardians have the lowest TPS of all fighters</p><p>Guardians have the lowest DPS of all fighters</p><p>There.. fix one of those. Don't give me another stupid ability that makes it so I have to perfectly time an AoE or something to try and fix the fact that I can't do my job.</p></blockquote><p>Guardians shouldn't be the 'best choice' but they should definately be the one of the best and not one of the worst.  On that I'll agree with you.</p><p>As for having the lowest TPS, that is an easy fix, give you a AA in the guardian tree that will give you an increase to threat while wearing a shield.  Can make it a 3-5% increase by point, can make it a % of str, something.  Now, you should have the ability (should you choose to spend the points) to generate all the hate you need.  I'm sure you all (like Pallies) have an AA that is worthless and could be turned into this.</p><p>And I am definately not opposed to seeing you all get a slight increase to DPS, watching paint dry shouldn't be more fun than playing a class in a game.</p><p>That being said, some of the above ideas wouldn't hurt to have in addition to these, provides a little bit of utility to a class that doesn't really bring much besides tanking and would let you fill in in an OT role as well, where you can use that a way to help gather up a mob after the MT has gone down.  Snaps aren't always a matter of having failed, they can also be used to gather up a mob that got loose from another tank and is off killing the warlock/assassin/etc.</p>

[Soul_Dreamer]

<p><p>I don't mind the class as a whole, Hate is my only concern and I don't think Guardians should be limited on hate when other classes have very near our survivability now.</p><p>I can't see anything being done though so I'll just keep pushing through until it's fixed, it's not unworkable but it is painful as a Guardian MT with Crusader OT's. The raid I can hold, the Crusaders I can't, which I should be able to with 2 Transfers, a Dirge and Trak Shield buff.</p><p>Possible Changes...</p><p><span style="font-size: 11.6667px;"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">AA LINES</span></strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">.</span></span></p><p>Wis AA Line, it's Warriors, not Guardians but it's been so bad for so long now <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </p><p><strong>Unshakable</strong>.</p><p>500 Mit for 10 points at level 90.... ( I think it's about 500)</p><p><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Unshakeable" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Unshakeable</a></p><p><strong>Change</strong>:<span style="font-size: 11.6667px;">To a 0.5% damage reduction per point</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 11.6667px;"><strong>Stance Mastery.</strong></span></p><p>Just a little something.</p><p><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Stance_Mastery" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Stance_Mastery</a></p><p><strong>Add</strong>:</p><p>Defensive Stance gains - </p><p>Adds an effect which grants a portion of the damage avoided as hate when the Warrior sucessfully avoids an attack.</p><p>Offensive Stance gains - </p><p>Adds an effect which increases the Warriors primary weapons attack rating by 2%</p><p><strong>Skanktastic Cripple line</strong>:</p><p>This AA end line is 100% useless and is a good place to make a change to Guardian agro.</p><p><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Guardian_AAs" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Guardian_AAs</a></p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=480615" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=480615</a></p><p><strong>Got your Back</strong>:</p><p>This AA has always been worthless, 2/4 Guardian AA's are.</p><p><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Got_Your_Back" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Got_Your_Back</a></p><p><span style="font-size: 11.6667px;"><strong>Change</strong>:</span></p><p>Castable Buff on another player. 1 Player only.</p><p>Protects group member from taking the full effect of all damage directed at them. 10% of damage is adsorbed, the amount of damage absorbed is added to the Guardian as hate.</p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Raid wide buff</span></strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">:</span></p><p>Because it just sucks, again change will benefit grouping and also raiding.</p><p><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Call_of_Shielding_VI" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Call_of_Shielding_VI</a></p><p><strong>Change </strong>defense to:</p><p>Decreases incoming damage by 5% on Slashing/Piercing/Crushing Damage.</p><p><strong>Add</strong>:</p><p>When target receives damage has a 20% chance to decrease targets hate position by 1 and increase all fighters hate positions by one. (if not fighter)</p><p>Basically a small chance to proc an effect similar to:</p><p><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Sentry_Watch" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Sentry_Watch</a></p><p><span style="font-size: 11.6667px;"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Recapture</span></strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">:</span></span></p><p>Change to help everyone in the raid and give it some group utility.</p><p><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Recapture" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Recapture</a></p><p><strong>Add</strong>:</p><p>Decreases the hate position of all other non fighter allies that are hated by every enemy in target encounter. </p></p>

[skycruise]

<p>Some great suggestions!  Hope you guys get some added.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Jalathan@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Guardians shouldn't be the 'best choice' but they should definately be the one of the best and not one of the worst.  On that I'll agree with you.</p><p>As for having the lowest TPS, that is an easy fix, give you a AA in the guardian tree that will give you an increase to threat while wearing a shield.  Can make it a 3-5% increase by point, can make it a % of str, something.  Now, you should have the ability (should you choose to spend the points) to generate all the hate you need.  I'm sure you all (like Pallies) have an AA that is worthless and could be turned into this.</p><p>And I am definately not opposed to seeing you all get a slight increase to DPS, watching paint dry shouldn't be more fun than playing a class in a game.</p><p>That being said, some of the above ideas wouldn't hurt to have in addition to these, provides a little bit of utility to a class that doesn't really bring much besides tanking and would let you fill in in an OT role as well, where you can use that a way to help gather up a mob after the MT has gone down.  Snaps aren't always a matter of having failed, they can also be used to gather up a mob that got loose from another tank and is off killing the warlock/assassin/etc.</p></blockquote><p>I must admit that I'm probably a bit venomous about this whole thing. Dealing with all the aqusations and defelections from people on a topic that's the whole game knows is frustrating.</p><p>1. Guardians were designed to be raid MT's. But, at the same time, SOE told everybody this wasn't the case. Guardians have been nerfed, tweeked, nerfed and tweeked several time and there just is no good place for the concept of a Guardian except for the raid MT. It's very clear that that spot is going to everybody and SoE needs to find a spot for us or give me all my money back.</p><p>2. Guardians already have a reactive proc on our Reversal AA line. I had to dump something like 30 AA's into the line to get it viable but I guess that's what I'm suppose to do. Dump all of my AA's into lines to try and fix my class where everybody else is putting AA's into lines to advance your class. Also, this AA is only available at level 81 and it only generates around 5% of my total hate. I haven't looked at my parse in a while but I can if you like. Getting 5% TPS increase for ~30 AA's. Nice.</p><p>3. Don't give me more crap as bandaids to fix the class. If you give it to me make it persistant. Unfortunatly a persistant skill would be to powerful at full raid geared level if it even hopes to balance things at Heroic/semi-raid level.</p>

[Rast]

<p>Trust me bud, I understand it, I've been where you are and I didn't like it then and I don't expect you to either.</p><p>I think we can agree that we need to get guardians fixed.  Heck, I'm even trying to level one just so I can see first hand what the problems are with the class and have the ability to compare them to my pally.  Unfortunately, I'm a very slow leveler and I still need to get my Pally geared and raiding more often <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Couching]

<p>Guardians can keep aoe aggro fine IF they have aoe spec, such as dragoon's cyclone.</p><p>The problem is a lot of guardians refuse to do so.</p><p>However, the reason that aoe tanks are more welcome than single target tanks, guardians and monks, in heroic content is not just aggro.</p><p><strong>Do you prefer a tank with 40k dps+10k tps or another tank with 20k dps+30ktsp? </strong></p><p>Currently, dps of ST tanks is just too low comparing with aoe tanks. Even in content of single target mobs, for aoe tanks, they can always pull multiple single targets at the same time. In other word, there is no single target content for aoe tanks as long as they can survive the pull.</p><p>Moreover, group/raid wide buff from aoe tanks are 10 times better than guardians and monks. Most of their buffs boost their group dps a lot and the dps gap between a group with aoe tank vs another group with ST tank is even worse.</p><p>Let me say it straight, no matter how you increase threat for guardians and monks, it's useless. They need more than threat increase.  What they need is dps boost AND useful group/raid buffs.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>I am an AoE speced Guardian. I have the the full 40% AoE attack. I have close to 100% of critical, DA, DPS and Haste solo. I have the spell/combat art reuse AA's maxed. My Strength in full offensive is ~1300+. I have NEVER broken 10K DPS that I have see in my parse. If I have two spiking DPS classes in group I will lose agro almost every fight.</p>

[Couching]

<p>I feel sorry that you have problem to break 10k dps and it's a lot less than most parses posted in other site.</p><p>The fact is, a DWed guardian in offensive has similar dps potential of equal geared monk in heroic content and raid. Moreover, a DWed guardian in offensive has better survivability than monk in offensive because contested avoidance is a pile of xxxx and didn't work in most game content. On the contrary, mitigation works for all of the game content.</p><p>Anyway, I don't mind and don't care if guardian got a huge threat boost because it was never an issue of why people dislike to group with single target tank, guardian and monk, unless you are exceptional/over geared.</p><p><span ><strong>Do you prefer grouping with a tank with 40k dps+10k tps or another tank with 20k dps+30k tps? </strong></span></p><p><strong>Do you prefer grouping with a tank that can boost group dps over 20k-30k+ or another tank with 1-2k? </strong></p><p>When a group can finish an instance in 15 minutes with an aoe tank and they have to spend 25-30 minutes for the same instance with a ST tank, do you think which tank is preferred in their mind?</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>Exactly. People want to add some TPS to the Guardian class but that will just help with the ability to keep agro. It will in no way, shape or form fix the fact the SK's outshine all other fighters in all aspects.</p><p>And thank you for the condolances on my parse. I'm sure that if I turned myslef into a marshmallow with a complete AA respec I could break 10K DPS. But then I'm just a T4 DPS without the ability to take a hit. What good is that? That's even worse than what Guardians are now. Also, I guarantee you I'm in the vasty majority of Guardians and not the minority. Even the raid tank that posted offensive parses in the forums ended up only being able to do 20-25K DPS when you take out all his nifty reactive and proc buffs from his raid force. The SK in the same raid, without the same buffs was doing 40K I believe.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Exactly. People want to add some TPS to the Guardian class but that will just help with the ability to keep agro. It will in no way, shape or form fix the fact the SK's outshine all other fighters in all aspects.</p><p>And thank you for the condolances on my parse. I'm sure that if I turned myslef into a marshmallow with a complete AA respec I could break 10K DPS. But then I'm just a T4 DPS without the ability to take a hit. What good is that? That's even worse than what Guardians are now. Also, I guarantee you I'm in the vasty majority of Guardians and not the minority. Even the raid tank that posted offensive parses in the forums ended up only being able to do 20-25K DPS when you take out all his nifty reactive and proc buffs from his raid force. The SK in the same raid, without the same buffs was doing 40K I believe.</p></blockquote><p>That raid tank plays a zerker now.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am an AoE speced Guardian. I have the the full 40% AoE attack. I have close to 100% of critical, DA, DPS and Haste solo. I have the spell/combat art reuse AA's maxed. My Strength in full offensive is ~1300+. I have NEVER broken 10K DPS that I have see in my parse. If I have two spiking DPS classes in group I will lose agro almost every fight.</p></blockquote><p>Odd, I'm pasing ~20k with similar build.  If  could wrestle BC from the dirge, I might parse respectfully.</p><p>However, I still have significant issue keeping hate off the pally in the caster dps group.  Though, I'm 100% sure if they took the dps component off HG, the pally would no longer be an issue.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I feel sorry that you have problem to break 10k dps and it's a lot less than most parses posted in other site.</p><p>The fact is, a DWed guardian in offensive has similar dps potential of equal geared monk in heroic content and raid. Moreover, a DWed guardian in offensive has better survivability than monk in offensive because contested avoidance is a pile of xxxx and didn't work in most game content. On the contrary, mitigation works for all of the game content.</p><p>Anyway, I don't mind and don't care if guardian got a huge threat boost because it was never an issue of why people dislike to group with single target tank, guardian and monk, unless you are exceptional/over geared.</p><p><span><strong>Do you prefer grouping with a tank with 40k dps+10k tps or another tank with 20k dps+30k tps? </strong></span></p><p><strong>Do you prefer grouping with a tank that can boost group dps over 20k-30k+ or another tank with 1-2k? </strong></p><p>When a group can finish an instance in 15 minutes with an aoe tank and they have to spend 25-30 minutes for the same instance with a ST tank, do you think which tank is preferred in their mind?</p></blockquote><p>Guard and Defensive Brawlers should have equal ST DPS to the other 3 fighters, and they should have more AE agro than they currently have.  However just adding DPS is not going to make things enjoyable.  You will completely destroy the Guard definition if all you do is make them Bezerkers.</p><p>Instead the concentration needs to be on the utility a Guard brings.  They need more defensive abilities for the group.  I am not sure exactly what those answers are but if everybody grouping with a Guard, including healers, can go max DPS because the Guard being there is helping protect them while also holding agro...it would go a long ways to maintaining Guard identity, making the class more enjoyable to play as a player, and increasing the usefulness at the heroic level to play with other characters.  On raids it would mean a more defensive MT group.  So if a Guard could time a group stone skin with AEs it means their group could stay in the whole time on a fight...means more DPS and more agro control.</p>

[Soul_Dreamer]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am an AoE speced Guardian. I have the the full 40% AoE attack. I have close to 100% of critical, DA, DPS and Haste solo. I have the spell/combat art reuse AA's maxed. My Strength in full offensive is ~1300+. I have NEVER broken 10K DPS that I have see in my parse. If I have two spiking DPS classes in group I will lose agro almost every fight.</p></blockquote><p>Odd, I'm pasing ~20k with similar build.  If  could wrestle BC from the dirge, I might parse respectfully.</p><p>However, I still have significant issue keeping hate off the pally in the caster dps group.  Though, I'm 100% sure if they took the dps component off HG, the pally would no longer be an issue.</p></blockquote><p>Similar build here as well and can Parse similar to Atan when I'm more offensive, grouping I find fine as long as I have at least one of.. Assassin/Coercer/Dirge/Swashy. I've seen a couple of 30k+ Parses in AOE heavy zones, if you gear right as a Guardian you can get AOE hate pretty stable. That said a Crusader in the same position with the same gear would be leaps and bounds ahead of that just because of all their AOE abilities on top of the gear.</p><p>Your problem is exactly the same one I have Atan, only mine is an SK who mainly lives in the DPS group, the Pally in the OT group I don't have as much of an issue with unless he decides to be an annoying, he recently found a ring with a proc for +1 hate positions that he liked to wear to annoy me, a couple of fast tells to some heals of "don't heal the Pally if he peels" sorted that little mis-adventure out though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>A small DPS gain and some of the changes that have been suggested would sort Guardians out which is the frustrating thing since very few of the suggestions are even that large.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I feel sorry that you have problem to break 10k dps and it's a lot less than most parses posted in other site.</p><p>The fact is, a DWed guardian in offensive has similar dps potential of equal geared monk in heroic content and raid. Moreover, a DWed guardian in offensive has better survivability than monk in offensive because contested avoidance is a pile of xxxx and didn't work in most game content. On the contrary, mitigation works for all of the game content.</p><p>Anyway, I don't mind and don't care if guardian got a huge threat boost because it was never an issue of why people dislike to group with single target tank, guardian and monk, unless you are exceptional/over geared.</p><p><span><strong>Do you prefer grouping with a tank with 40k dps+10k tps or another tank with 20k dps+30k tps? </strong></span></p><p><strong>Do you prefer grouping with a tank that can boost group dps over 20k-30k+ or another tank with 1-2k? </strong></p><p>When a group can finish an instance in 15 minutes with an aoe tank and they have to spend 25-30 minutes for the same instance with a ST tank, do you think which tank is preferred in their mind?</p></blockquote><p>Guard and Defensive Brawlers should have equal ST DPS to the other 3 fighters, and they should have more AE agro than they currently have.  However just adding DPS is not going to make things enjoyable.  You will completely destroy the Guard definition if all you do is make them Bezerkers.</p><p>Instead the concentration needs to be on the utility a Guard brings.  They need more defensive abilities for the group.  I am not sure exactly what those answers are but if everybody grouping with a Guard, including healers, can go max DPS because the Guard being there is helping protect them while also holding agro...it would go a long ways to maintaining Guard identity, making the class more enjoyable to play as a player, and increasing the usefulness at the heroic level to play with other characters.  On raids it would mean a more defensive MT group.  So if a Guard could time a group stone skin with AEs it means their group could stay in the whole time on a fight...means more DPS and more agro control.</p></blockquote><p>Equal ST DPS to the other 3 fighters really wouldn't be enough since the other 3 fighters also do more TPS.  The design we should aim for is ST having a slight but noticable advantage on ST and AE having a slight but noticable advantage on AE.  Let AE tanks be kings of AE but don't also have them as kings of ST at the same time.  The only way to do this is for ST tanks to have a ST dps/tps advantage.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I feel sorry that you have problem to break 10k dps and it's a lot less than most parses posted in other site.</p><p>The fact is, a DWed guardian in offensive has similar dps potential of equal geared monk in heroic content and raid. Moreover, a DWed guardian in offensive has better survivability than monk in offensive because contested avoidance is a pile of xxxx and didn't work in most game content. On the contrary, mitigation works for all of the game content.</p><p>Anyway, I don't mind and don't care if guardian got a huge threat boost because it was never an issue of why people dislike to group with single target tank, guardian and monk, unless you are exceptional/over geared.</p><p><span><strong>Do you prefer grouping with a tank with 40k dps+10k tps or another tank with 20k dps+30k tps? </strong></span></p><p><strong>Do you prefer grouping with a tank that can boost group dps over 20k-30k+ or another tank with 1-2k? </strong></p><p>When a group can finish an instance in 15 minutes with an aoe tank and they have to spend 25-30 minutes for the same instance with a ST tank, do you think which tank is preferred in their mind?</p></blockquote><p>Guard and Defensive Brawlers should have equal ST DPS to the other 3 fighters, and they should have more AE agro than they currently have.  However just adding DPS is not going to make things enjoyable.  You will completely destroy the Guard definition if all you do is make them Bezerkers.</p><p>Instead the concentration needs to be on the utility a Guard brings.  They need more defensive abilities for the group.  I am not sure exactly what those answers are but if everybody grouping with a Guard, including healers, can go max DPS because the Guard being there is helping protect them while also holding agro...it would go a long ways to maintaining Guard identity, making the class more enjoyable to play as a player, and increasing the usefulness at the heroic level to play with other characters.  On raids it would mean a more defensive MT group.  So if a Guard could time a group stone skin with AEs it means their group could stay in the whole time on a fight...means more DPS and more agro control.</p></blockquote><p>Equal ST DPS to the other 3 fighters really wouldn't be enough since the other 3 fighters also do more TPS.  The design we should aim for is ST having a slight but noticable advantage on ST and AE having a slight but noticable advantage on AE.  Let AE tanks be kings of AE but don't also have them as kings of ST at the same time.  The only way to do this is for ST tanks to have a ST dps/tps advantage.</p></blockquote><p>I would think with close to equal ST DPS that those specific fighters would more than make up the TPS.  They do have more taunt type abilities than SKs I know which combined with the same DPS would mean they had more TPS.  Of course this is speaking from what I know about SKs....Paladins are a completely different beast with an ability that has been long over-due for a change.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>BChizzle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Couching@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I feel sorry that you have problem to break 10k dps and it's a lot less than most parses posted in other site.</p><p>The fact is, a DWed guardian in offensive has similar dps potential of equal geared monk in heroic content and raid. Moreover, a DWed guardian in offensive has better survivability than monk in offensive because contested avoidance is a pile of xxxx and didn't work in most game content. On the contrary, mitigation works for all of the game content.</p><p>Anyway, I don't mind and don't care if guardian got a huge threat boost because it was never an issue of why people dislike to group with single target tank, guardian and monk, unless you are exceptional/over geared.</p><p><span><strong>Do you prefer grouping with a tank with 40k dps+10k tps or another tank with 20k dps+30k tps? </strong></span></p><p><strong>Do you prefer grouping with a tank that can boost group dps over 20k-30k+ or another tank with 1-2k? </strong></p><p>When a group can finish an instance in 15 minutes with an aoe tank and they have to spend 25-30 minutes for the same instance with a ST tank, do you think which tank is preferred in their mind?</p></blockquote><p>Guard and Defensive Brawlers should have equal ST DPS to the other 3 fighters, and they should have more AE agro than they currently have.  However just adding DPS is not going to make things enjoyable.  You will completely destroy the Guard definition if all you do is make them Bezerkers.</p><p>Instead the concentration needs to be on the utility a Guard brings.  They need more defensive abilities for the group.  I am not sure exactly what those answers are but if everybody grouping with a Guard, including healers, can go max DPS because the Guard being there is helping protect them while also holding agro...it would go a long ways to maintaining Guard identity, making the class more enjoyable to play as a player, and increasing the usefulness at the heroic level to play with other characters.  On raids it would mean a more defensive MT group.  So if a Guard could time a group stone skin with AEs it means their group could stay in the whole time on a fight...means more DPS and more agro control.</p></blockquote><p>Equal ST DPS to the other 3 fighters really wouldn't be enough since the other 3 fighters also do more TPS.  The design we should aim for is ST having a slight but noticable advantage on ST and AE having a slight but noticable advantage on AE.  Let AE tanks be kings of AE but don't also have them as kings of ST at the same time.  The only way to do this is for ST tanks to have a ST dps/tps advantage.</p></blockquote><p>I would think with close to equal ST DPS that those specific fighters would more than make up the TPS.  They do have more taunt type abilities than SKs I know which combined with the same DPS would mean they had more TPS.  Of course this is speaking from what I know about SKs....Paladins are a completely different beast with an ability that has been long over-due for a change.</p></blockquote><p>My brawler has 2 taunts and a taunt proc that is less effective then caveliers, that is it, we can get a taunt added to our blue ae but thats a 2k taunt extra every minute not really anything worth noting though it is nice for pulling.  Also note our taunts are just taunts they don't do any damage or have any debuffs attached to them unlike alot of other classes taunts.  If I am doing equal DPS with an SK I still won't be doing the same amount of threat.  Guards of course have better taunts and if they were doing equal dps to a crusader it would be a bit closer.  As far as amends goes well not much we can say about that which hasn't already been said but even without amends in a MT group setting a paly will still put out more hate then brawlers/guardians.</p>

[Tommara]

<p>EQ2 is hugely DPS centered (pampered even).  It should be more like the original EQ, where DPS had to manage their own aggro, by simply holding back.  Warriors weren't blamed for the death of a DPS class.  They were only expected to absorb damage. DPS who didn't manage their aggro were reviled.</p><p>In EQ2, it's always the tank's fault if other people get aggroed.  That's just wrong and is a boring strategy.  Classes that can hold back, like dps, should hold back to protect their own self (and to heck with parsing that doesn't show the value of stuns and debuffs).  Classes that can't hold back, like healers and chanters, should be protected by someone else other than the main tank, which creates more roles for tanks than just an uber tank who's expected to do it all.</p><p>Crusaders are over-powered.  They should not be able to grab all the mobs attention and survive it for an extended period of time, much less compete with dps on the parse.  Guardians should be the king of survivability.  Crusaders should be their back-ups who protect the weak, who can gain aggro fast when needed, but can't survive it for long.</p><p>I'm a level 90 paladin and I don't play a guardian at all.  My preference is to be a ranger, but that's messed up in the end game, as most of you know, so I don't have a bias against DPS.  Just calling it as I see it.  I'm way over-powered compared to other tank classes, with respect to holding aggro and being able to survive it.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Tommara wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>EQ2 is hugely DPS centered (pampered even).  It should be more like the original EQ, where DPS had to manage their own aggro, by simply holding back.  Warriors weren't blamed for the death of a DPS class.  They were only expected to absorb damage. DPS who didn't manage their aggro were reviled.</p><p>In EQ2, it's always the tank's fault if other people get aggroed.  That's just wrong and is a boring strategy.  Classes that can hold back, like dps, should hold back to protect their own self (and to heck with parsing that doesn't show the value of stuns and debuffs).  Classes that can't hold back, like healers and chanters, should be protected by someone else other than the main tank, which creates more roles for tanks than just an uber tank who's expected to do it all.</p><p>Crusaders are over-powered.  They should not be able to grab all the mobs attention and survive it for an extended period of time, much less compete with dps on the parse.  Guardians should be the king of survivability.  Crusaders should be their back-ups who protect the weak, who can gain aggro fast when needed, but can't survive it for long.</p><p>I'm a level 90 paladin and I don't play a guardian at all.  My preference is to be a ranger, but that's messed up in the end game, as most of you know, so I don't have a bias against DPS.  Just calling it as I see it.  I'm way over-powered compared to other tank classes, with respect to holding aggro and being able to survive it.</p></blockquote><p>You crusaders that keep coming out and saying you guys are OP better stop or Bruener and Hallowell will be on your case about how wrong you are.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>It's simple. Guardians need one of the following:</p><p>1. Survivability increase above other fighters</p><p>2. DPS increase to equal other fighters.</p><p>Survivability was the bread and butter of the Guardian but in order to make all the other fighters a viable choice for tanking they had to provide equal survivability. If they up Guardian Survivability they screw all other fighetrs so that will not happen.</p><p>DPS = agro and SK's know this well. Guardians were given a couple of tools that allowed us to do some nice DPS and the 'offensive fighters screamed. Oh My god! Guardians are good tanks and are taking away the identity of the Offensive tabks! Oh the HORROR! Please say it aint so! Based upon how quickly the Guardians DPS was nerfed when they got to high I suspect this isn't an option either.</p><p>You can screw with stances, you mess with utility but in the end the design of the Guardian class and it's identity is to be a big fat tank that can get beat on forever and keep kicking. We are No different in that area than the other 5 fighters. We had to let all 6 fighters play with that ball and all the other high DPSing fighters won't let us play with their ball. They just throw crap out saying fix this, change that, screw with this forever. Screw them. Give me my Survivability back or give me their dps.</p><p>It's simple.</p>

[Landiin]

I think it is called betray to a zerker Wasuna. I've been putting it off but with NO WORD for a dev about any class balance I think I may just betray tonight. The guardian class is dead and I don't see them fixing it or even knowing how to fix it. TPS isn't the answer I agree.