no win = no token

[Davngr1]

<p> so yea..  the topic speaks for it self.  </p><p> if you don't win you don't get a token,  instead devs should make the "kills" quest give a token or two that way PEOPLE that PARTICIPATE are rewarded and people who go in to do nothing get NOTHING!</p><p> anyone have any reasons at all why this would not work?</p>

[Killque]

<p>Battlegrounds are much more than how many kills you can rack up. There are times when I purposefully just block fear and snare people without any intention of killing them.</p><p>There are times when all I do is focus on the flag, not entering combat (Currently) provides a benifit for the flag bearer.</p><p>I see where you are trying to go with this, I too want more involvement from players, but I just dont see how it (your change) <strong>could</strong> work.</p>

[Aule]

Nobody would ever guard center or flag and you'd see even less healers if kills was the only quest type that gave tokens.

[Davngr1]

<p>you two don't understand the mechanics of battle grounds.</p><p>  when you "touch" another player be it a stun or a small debuff when that player dies (even if to another class) you still get the kill credit just not the kill "shot".</p><p> edit.  also since loosing will give no tokens, winning should give more tokens.  lets say 5 tokens if you win, so if you guard center and you win you still get more tokens then if you went out and killed for your "token quest".   the token quest will only give one.</p>

[Aule]

Yes it's obvious I don't understand how standing in center and "defending it", which often involves sitting around for 5 mins because nobody's attacking it, is going to fail to get me kill credit. Under your proposal you would create an incentive to leave center whenever 30s or so goes by without targets showing up, and to go join roaming folks.

[VeraIkonica]

<p>I like the OP's idea maybe we could get some additional daily quests also like capture the flag a number of times or kill/grab relic a number of times</p>

[bks6721]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> so yea..  the topic speaks for it self.  </p><p> if you don't win you don't get a token,  instead devs should make the "kills" quest give a token or two that way PEOPLE that PARTICIPATE are rewarded and people who go in to do nothing get NOTHING!</p><p> anyone have any reasons at all why this would not work?</p></blockquote><p>ok what happens if...</p><p>team A says.. we are losing, no token for us.. lets all exit the match.. why waste time in here for no token.. so Team A all go linkdead or exit the bg..    Does the other team still win?  They haven't reached a winning score yet and the match is effectively over.  No tokens for them either.    Even if they sit and wait for the timer to end the match have they really earned a win?</p>

[Banditman]

<p>At one point, I wrote up a post describing how to incentivize the goals that each scenario brings.  I can't find it atm, so I'll recap.</p><p>*  Add new quests that are instantly repeatable, that award tokens. *</p><p>Gears of Klakanon:</p><p>New Quests:</p><p>1.  Hold the relic.  Must hold relic for 60 consecutive seconds.  Requires 5 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>2.  Kill the relic holder.  Requires 7 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>3.  High healer.  Requires 2 updates to complete.  Highest parsing healer in a match gets the update.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>4.  High damage dealer.  Requires 3 updates to complete.  Highest damage dealt.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>5.  Tanking.  Requires 2 updates to complete.  Highest damage taken per spawn.  (Damage taken divided by deaths + 1).  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>Battlefield of Ganak:</p><p>New Quests:</p><p>1.  Capture the Flag.  Self explanatory.  2 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>2.  Kill Flag carrier.  Self explanatory.  4 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>3.  Flag defense.  Kill enemy player within 50m of your flag, while your flag is on the stand.  10 updates to complete, 1 update per kill.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>4.  Flag attack.  Kill enemy player within 50m of their flag while that flag is on the stand.  7 updates to complete, 1 update per kill.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>5.  Carrier defense.  Kill enemy player targeting your flag holder.  2 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>6.  Heal carrier.  Heal friendly flag carrier who is below 70% health.  5 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>7.  High healer.  Healer (per side) with greatest healing output at match end.  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>8.  High damage.  Most damage output (per side) at match end.  2 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>9.  Tanking.  Most damage received per spawn.  (Damage received divided by deaths + 1).  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>Smuggler's Den:</p><p>New Quests:</p><p>1.  Capture Tower.  Take a tower from Nuetral to your color.  8 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>2.  Defend Tower.  Kill enemy player within 100m of a tower you own.  10 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>3.   Assault Tower.  Kill enemy player within 100m of a tower they own.  10 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>4.  High healer.  Healer (per side) with greatest healing output at match end.  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>5.  High damage.  Most damage output (per side) at match end.  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>6.  Tanking.  Most damage received per spawn.  (Damage received divided by deaths + 1).  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>The change here is that you are not only incentivizing the victory, you are adding incentive to being an active participant in the tactics that lead to victory.</p>

[Killque]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>At one point, I wrote up a post describing how to incentivize the goals that each scenario brings.  I can't find it atm, so I'll recap.</p><p>*  Add new quests that are instantly repeatable, that award tokens. *</p><p>Gears of Klakanon:</p><p>New Quests:</p><p>1.  Hold the relic.  Must hold relic for 60 consecutive seconds.  Requires 5 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>2.  Kill the relic holder.  Requires 7 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>3.  High healer.  Requires 2 updates to complete.  Highest parsing healer in a match gets the update.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>4.  High damage dealer.  Requires 3 updates to complete.  Highest damage dealt.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>5.  Tanking.  Requires 2 updates to complete.  Highest damage taken per spawn.  (Damage taken divided by deaths + 1).  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>Battlefield of Ganak:</p><p>New Quests:</p><p>1.  Capture the Flag.  Self explanatory.  2 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>2.  Kill Flag carrier.  Self explanatory.  4 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>3.  Flag defense.  Kill enemy player within 50m of your flag, while your flag is on the stand.  10 updates to complete, 1 update per kill.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>4.  Flag attack.  Kill enemy player within 50m of their flag while that flag is on the stand.  7 updates to complete, 1 update per kill.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>5.  Carrier defense.  Kill enemy player targeting your flag holder.  2 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>6.  Heal carrier.  Heal friendly flag carrier who is below 70% health.  5 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>7.  High healer.  Healer (per side) with greatest healing output at match end.  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>8.  High damage.  Most damage output (per side) at match end.  2 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>9.  Tanking.  Most damage received per spawn.  (Damage received divided by deaths + 1).  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>Smuggler's Den:</p><p>New Quests:</p><p>1.  Capture Tower.  Take a tower from Nuetral to your color.  8 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>2.  Defend Tower.  Kill enemy player within 100m of a tower you own.  10 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>3.   Assault Tower.  Kill enemy player within 100m of a tower they own.  10 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>4.  High healer.  Healer (per side) with greatest healing output at match end.  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>5.  High damage.  Most damage output (per side) at match end.  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>6.  Tanking.  Most damage received per spawn.  (Damage received divided by deaths + 1).  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>The change here is that you are not only incentivizing the victory, you are adding incentive to being an active participant in the tactics that lead to victory.</p></blockquote><p>Now this is an idea. Keep things the way they are in BGs but add in more incentive for players to be more active. This has potential but we would have to be careful. I know people who would hold the flag and not turn it in to try and finish their quest, for example.</p>

[VeraIkonica]

<p>very good post Banditman.  I really hope a Dev gets a hold of those ideas.</p>

[LardLord]

<p><cite>Killque wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I know people who would hold the flag and not turn it in to try and finish their quest, for example.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, there's already incentive to do things to help you team win (3 tokens vs 1 token), and that quest idea, while it would probably be fun at first, would end up distracting from the goal of winning more than it would focus people on that goal.</p>

[VeraIkonica]

<p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Killque wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I know people who would hold the flag and not turn it in to try and finish their quest, for example.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, there's already incentive to do things to help you team win (3 tokens vs 1 token), and that quest idea, while it would probably be fun at first, would end up distracting from the goal of winning more than it would focus people on that goal.</p></blockquote><p>No this does not work because as long as people can get a token for just queing up to battlegrounds they will exploit the system and and make it less enjoyable for those that like to actually play battlegrounds.</p><p>edit: I also think making battleground gear pvp only would help this as well, but I like the quest Idea better</p>

[StaticLex]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> anyone have any reasons at all why this would not work?</p></blockquote><p>It's bad enough that I go in, get paired with a buncha newbs, and then only come away with 1 token for my effort.  If there was a chance I could come away with nothing then I'd either stop doing them entirely or only go with a premade.</p><p>I'm definitely in favor of implementaing something clever to shoot down the AFK leechers though.</p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>Killque wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I know people who would hold the flag and not turn it in to try and finish their quest, for example.</p></blockquote><p>I agree.  They would try.  However, you'd also have people who are actively trying to kill them to complete THAT quest as well.</p><p>The goal is to create incentives that outweigh the "crap".  If it is more beneficial to actually "try" to win, I believe people will do so.  What's more, you need to reward the <strong>effort</strong>, not necessarily the <strong>outcome</strong>.  Right now, there is no reward for effort on the losing side.  Right now, whether you lose 702 - 680 or 702 - 0 the reward is the same.  There is no acknowledgement of great effort.</p><p>A system as I proposed above would help.</p>

[Avirodar]

<p>A system that inspires active gameplay is great. It just needs to be done carefully. To make some examples...<span style="text-decoration: underline;">SMUGGLERS :</span> I have been on a few smugglers raids, where our group was assigned the duty of defending center, and the action was almost non existant.  We stood to our position, stuck to the gameplan, and done our part in ensuring victory from start to finish. Do we deserve no perks for doing our part flawlessly, because the enemy barely attacked (plenty flown over, but not many dropped down)?<span style="text-decoration: underline;">GANAK :</span> I have been in Ganak matches where people deliberately use themselves as bait, even sacrifice themselves, or do odd things to advantage their team tactically that does not show up on any parses. Such tactics can make or break matches, but would go unrewarded? <span style="text-decoration: underline;">GEARS :</span> I have won some gears matches when I have barely healed 500k (as solo healer) and the other teams healer almost tripled my healing amount. Does this mean the other teams healer was playing better, or my groups DPS+tanks were better? I am sure DPS have experienced similar situations. Numbers can be very subjective.It's a bit of devils advocate. I am all for incentive rewards for active effort, it would be awesome. It just needs to be remembered that every current BG map is a <span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>team</strong></em></span></span> game, and sometimes to win team games you have to be selfless. If you start making people too selfish about their own score, their own parse, their own kill count, their own cap count, gameplay in BGs risk becoming a lot messier than it already is.I like the general idea, a lot, but it needs to be done very carefully.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Yes it's obvious I don't understand how standing in center and "defending it", which often involves sitting around for 5 mins because nobody's attacking it, is going to fail to get me kill credit. Under your proposal you would create an incentive to leave center whenever 30s or so goes by without targets showing up, and to go join roaming folks.</blockquote><p>you have missed the part where if you win your team gets 5 tokens!</p><p><cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> so yea..  the topic speaks for it self.  </p><p> if you don't win you don't get a token,  instead devs should make the "kills" quest give a token or two that way PEOPLE that PARTICIPATE are rewarded and people who go in to do nothing get NOTHING!</p><p> anyone have any reasons at all why this would not work?</p></blockquote><p>ok what happens if...</p><p>team A says.. we are losing, no token for us.. lets all exit the match.. why waste time in here for no token.. so Team A all go linkdead or exit the bg..    Does the other team still win?  They haven't reached a winning score yet and the match is effectively over.  No tokens for them either.    Even if they sit and wait for the timer to end the match have they really earned a win?</p></blockquote><p> again.. some one that does not understand battle grounds.</p><p> if the team LD's they get 5 minute truancy and the opposing team get's 5 tokens for winning.</p> <p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>At one point, I wrote up a post describing how to incentivize the goals that each scenario brings.  I can't find it atm, so I'll recap.</p><p>*  Add new quests that are instantly repeatable, that award tokens. *</p><p>Gears of Klakanon:</p><p>New Quests:</p><p>1.  Hold the relic.  Must hold relic for 60 consecutive seconds.  Requires 5 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>2.  Kill the relic holder.  Requires 7 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>3.  High healer.  Requires 2 updates to complete.  Highest parsing healer in a match gets the update.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>4.  High damage dealer.  Requires 3 updates to complete.  Highest damage dealt.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>5.  Tanking.  Requires 2 updates to complete.  Highest damage taken per spawn.  (Damage taken divided by deaths + 1).  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>Battlefield of Ganak:</p><p>New Quests:</p><p>1.  Capture the Flag.  Self explanatory.  2 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>2.  Kill Flag carrier.  Self explanatory.  4 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>3.  Flag defense.  Kill enemy player within 50m of your flag, while your flag is on the stand.  10 updates to complete, 1 update per kill.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>4.  Flag attack.  Kill enemy player within 50m of their flag while that flag is on the stand.  7 updates to complete, 1 update per kill.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>5.  Carrier defense.  Kill enemy player targeting your flag holder.  2 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>6.  Heal carrier.  Heal friendly flag carrier who is below 70% health.  5 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>7.  High healer.  Healer (per side) with greatest healing output at match end.  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>8.  High damage.  Most damage output (per side) at match end.  2 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>9.  Tanking.  Most damage received per spawn.  (Damage received divided by deaths + 1).  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>Smuggler's Den:</p><p>New Quests:</p><p>1.  Capture Tower.  Take a tower from Nuetral to your color.  8 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>2.  Defend Tower.  Kill enemy player within 100m of a tower you own.  10 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>3.   Assault Tower.  Kill enemy player within 100m of a tower they own.  10 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>4.  High healer.  Healer (per side) with greatest healing output at match end.  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>5.  High damage.  Most damage output (per side) at match end.  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>6.  Tanking.  Most damage received per spawn.  (Damage received divided by deaths + 1).  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>The change here is that you are not only incentivizing the victory, you are adding incentive to being an active participant in the tactics that lead to victory.</p></blockquote><p>this would be cool.</p> <p><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> anyone have any reasons at all why this would not work?</p></blockquote><p>It's bad enough that I go in, get paired with a buncha newbs, and then only come away with 1 token for my effort.  If there was a chance I could come away with nothing then I'd either stop doing them entirely or only go with a premade.</p><p>I'm definitely in favor of implementaing something clever to shoot down the AFK leechers though.</p></blockquote><p>  yes well .. </p><p> you loose some you win some</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Yes it's obvious I don't understand how standing in center and "defending it", which often involves sitting around for 5 mins because nobody's attacking it, is going to fail to get me kill credit. Under your proposal you would create an incentive to leave center whenever 30s or so goes by without targets showing up, and to go join roaming folks.</blockquote><p>you have missed the part where if you win your team gets 5 tokens!</p></blockquote><p>You have missed the part where groups who are assigned the duty of running around to the outer towers, and in doing so, are getting large amounts of kills+heals+tower caps etc, will get the 5 tokens for the win, and have the opportunity to get all the added bonuses on top because they engage more. The people assigned to center, can be left there twiddling their thumbs, missing out.This will inspire players to act in a manner unconstructive to the team winning, and brings mention to the nature of team games.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Yes it's obvious I don't understand how standing in center and "defending it", which often involves sitting around for 5 mins because nobody's attacking it, is going to fail to get me kill credit. Under your proposal you would create an incentive to leave center whenever 30s or so goes by without targets showing up, and to go join roaming folks.</blockquote><p>you have missed the part where if you win your team gets 5 tokens!</p></blockquote><p>You have missed the part where groups who are assigned the duty of running around to the outer towers, and in doing so, are getting large amounts of kills+heals+tower caps etc, will get the 5 tokens for the win, and have the opportunity to get all the added bonuses on top because they engage more. The people assigned to center, can be left there twiddling their thumbs, missing out.This will inspire players to act in a manner unconstructive to the team winning, and brings mention to the nature of team games.</p></blockquote><p>how is camping a tower any more constructive and team "winning" then running around and tanking towers?    </p><p> yes camping center is fine and i will still do it even if these changes go in BUT what you're saying makes no sense what so ever sir.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Yes it's obvious I don't understand how standing in center and "defending it", which often involves sitting around for 5 mins because nobody's attacking it, is going to fail to get me kill credit. Under your proposal you would create an incentive to leave center whenever 30s or so goes by without targets showing up, and to go join roaming folks.</blockquote><p>you have missed the part where if you win your team gets 5 tokens!</p></blockquote><p>You have missed the part where groups who are assigned the duty of running around to the outer towers, and in doing so, are getting large amounts of kills+heals+tower caps etc, will get the 5 tokens for the win, and have the opportunity to get all the added bonuses on top because they engage more. The people assigned to center, can be left there twiddling their thumbs, missing out.This will inspire players to act in a manner unconstructive to the team winning, and brings mention to the nature of team games.</p></blockquote><p>how is camping a tower any more constructive and team "winning" then running around and tanking towers?    </p><p> yes camping center is fine and i will still do it even if these changes go in BUT what you're saying makes no sense what so ever sir.</p></blockquote><p>Hes saying that no one will want to guard center because it will be in YOUR best interest to WIN AND UPDATE those quests.</p><p>Not sure if you have played many smugglers, but generally center is pretty boring after the first 2 minutes, sometimes there are random skirmishes and yes sometimes you get big fights after that time, but generally as in MOST of the time its uneventful</p>

[Avirodar]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>how is camping a tower any more constructive and team "winning" then running around and tanking towers?    </p><p> yes camping center is fine and i will still do it even if these changes go in BUT what you're saying makes no sense what so ever sir.</p></blockquote><p>How on earth can it not make sense? It's very simple. An example to make the point as follows...Raid leader says <em>"Group 1 stay and guard center tower.   Group 2 and 3 meet at base, rotate clockwide, group 4 rotate anti clockwise".</em>If everyone does exactly as asked, sticks to the plan, and the map is won, proper victory is achieved.  But what happens if the enemy only makes a mere few (failed) attempts on taking center, and otherwise leaves the group defending center sitting around bored? If you fail to see how this could inspire people to abandon center, or refuse to defend it, I can not help you. You would just be left to suffer the inevitable result if such changes went in without proper care.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hes saying that no one will want to guard center because it will be in YOUR best interest to WIN AND UPDATE those quests.</p><p>Not sure if you have played many smugglers, but generally center is pretty boring after the first 2 minutes, sometimes there are random skirmishes and yes sometimes you get big fights after that time, but generally as in MOST of the time its uneventful</p></blockquote><p>  i concur but these changes would influence how the game is played.</p> <p><cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>how is camping a tower any more constructive and team "winning" then running around and tanking towers?    </p><p> yes camping center is fine and i will still do it even if these changes go in BUT what you're saying makes no sense what so ever sir.</p></blockquote><p>How on earth can it not make sense? It's very simple. An example to make the point as follows...Raid leader says <em>"Group 1 stay and guard center tower.   Group 2 and 3 meet at base, rotate clockwide, group 4 rotate anti clockwise".</em>If everyone does exactly as asked, sticks to the plan, and the map is won, proper victory is achieved.  But what happens if the enemy only makes a mere few (failed) attempts on taking center, and otherwise leaves the group defending center sitting around bored? If you fail to see how this could inspire people to abandon center, or refuse to defend it, I can not help you. You would just be left to suffer the inevitable result if such changes went in without proper care.</p></blockquote><p>  so again how is running around taking towers less "constructive" then guarding center?</p><p>  you need to understand that the dynamics of the game would change and what you view as "contructive" "team winning" now would not be so if these changes took effect.</p>

[Avirodar]

<p>Davngr1, you clearly do not comprehend the point.If 2 or 3 groups invade and take center, 1 of the groups will normally stay to defend, and the other[s] leave. If you played Smugglers much, you will know this.If what you think is a good idea was implemented, no one will want to defend middle. Every single group will want to run around outside, because that is where all the kills+heals+tower caps etc are, and if the idea you like goes live, will be where all the BONUS tokens are. So despite people wanting to WIN, they will want to do what will allow them to WIN and get more BONUS tokens, thus people will fight over not having to stay at center, or simply abandon it.Is it -that- hard for you to comprehend, seriously?</p>

[Dasein]

<p>In a zone like Smuggler's, proper raid coordination is important. Thus, some players may get stuck with a boring job, like guarding center. This is a necessary task, but one that may not provide much in the way of individual rewards.</p><p>Now, if you are in a close match, you could be faced with a decision - abandon your post and try to pick up some personal updates, or hold your position and hope for a win. The win will likely pay off more than the personal updates, neither is guaranteed. Thus, players will look at the odds - if I need one more kill to get a token, it may be more profitable for me to abandon my post, even if it means losing the match.  Once one player breaks, others are likely to follow, so all it will take is one person thinking they have more to gain going out on their own than sticking with the team.</p><p>Further, Smuggler's tends to be the hardest BG to get into, so people will want to maximize their personal rewards, so this may skew people's decision making, as they will increase the importance of personal rewards over the possibility of team rewards.</p><p>Finally, there is no iteration - my actions in one BG match have no impact on my ability to get into another BG match. Thus, there is no social penalty for defecting - that is, leaving my post guarding the tower - as I am not going to be denied entry into a BG because of my actions.</p>

[darcain]

<p>now i here you points but what about non raid ppl that dont gave gear to out parce or out heal raid ppl the way i see what your saying is if ppl are in raid guild give them xtra tokens and if your not tuff luck</p><p>what i like to see is were u log into a bg hub there you can pick your group and enter that way u dont end up in bg with no healer afk raid leaders that ato jump or cast to stop from being vote afk having to group with rude ppl or bad ppl and you would be able to make cross server friends and groulp this them this way have it allso were you can have a friends list so u can find them fast</p><p> or allow were you type /bggroup invite voxjohndoe /bggroup invite bazzarjanedoe so on so forth</p><p>have a cross server friend list</p><p>ty thats my 2 cents</p>

[LardLord]

<p>Just solve the AFK-er problem directly, rather than trying to come up with solutions that impact honest players.</p><p>If you're voted AFK, you get 24 hour truancy or something (along with improving the voting system, such as being able to vote players AFK from anywhere on the map, which is supposedly hitting live with the GU).</p>

[Kota]

rotten idea tbh. it would kill bg's. and open world pvp is dead (don't blame bg's, get smart) so that would suck. but yeah, pre made groups would shut everyone down, and the pug'ers would just get beat down for nothing, and they would get sick of it and stop Q'ing up. yes it sucks when ppl go in and slack, but no need to ruin it for the ppl who pug and give an honest effort.

[Crismorn]

<p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just solve the AFK-er problem directly, rather than trying to come up with solutions that impact honest players.</p><p>If you're voted AFK, you get 24 hour truancy or something (along with improving the voting system, such as being able to vote players AFK from anywhere on the map, which is supposedly hitting live with the GU).</p></blockquote><p>^^</p><p>best idea yet</p>

[Neskonlith]

<p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just solve the AFK-er problem directly, rather than trying to come up with solutions that impact honest players.</p><p>If you're voted AFK, you get 24 hour truancy or something (along with improving the voting system, such as being able to vote players AFK from anywhere on the map, which is supposedly hitting live with the GU).</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">"Vote AFK" only catches the lazy, <em>passive</em> AFK players.  </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">We need an additional vote tool to catch the players who refuse to pvp inside the BeeGee but move around enough to stop AFK voting.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">"Vote Saboteur" might work for those ones <em>actively</em> exploiting the system.</span></p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just solve the AFK-er problem directly, rather than trying to come up with solutions that impact honest players.</p><p>If you're voted AFK, you get 24 hour truancy or something (along with improving the voting system, such as being able to vote players AFK from anywhere on the map, which is supposedly hitting live with the GU).</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">"Vote AFK" only catches the lazy, <em>passive</em> AFK players.  </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">We need an additional vote tool to catch the players who refuse to pvp inside the BeeGee but move around enough to stop AFK voting.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">"Vote Saboteur" might work for those ones <em>actively</em> exploiting the system.</span></p></blockquote><p>And how do you prevent griefing?</p>

[Neskonlith]

<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just solve the AFK-er problem directly, rather than trying to come up with solutions that impact honest players.</p><p>If you're voted AFK, you get 24 hour truancy or something (along with improving the voting system, such as being able to vote players AFK from anywhere on the map, which is supposedly hitting live with the GU).</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">"Vote AFK" only catches the lazy, <em>passive</em> AFK players.  </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">We need an additional vote tool to catch the players who refuse to pvp inside the BeeGee but move around enough to stop AFK voting.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">"Vote Saboteur" might work for those ones <em>actively</em> exploiting the system.</span></p></blockquote><p>And how do you prevent griefing?</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Likely the best way to prevent griefing with a "Vote Saboteur" system is to make the combined votes something like an auto-petition to summon a GM to investigate faster than the current, cumbersome individual /petition systems.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Abusing the vote system should incur some penalty, same as abusing the /petition system would.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The faster SOE acts to remove cheaters from the game, the better the overall game experience everyone else has!</span></p>

[Dasein]

<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just solve the AFK-er problem directly, rather than trying to come up with solutions that impact honest players.</p><p>If you're voted AFK, you get 24 hour truancy or something (along with improving the voting system, such as being able to vote players AFK from anywhere on the map, which is supposedly hitting live with the GU).</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">"Vote AFK" only catches the lazy, <em>passive</em> AFK players.  </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">We need an additional vote tool to catch the players who refuse to pvp inside the BeeGee but move around enough to stop AFK voting.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">"Vote Saboteur" might work for those ones <em>actively</em> exploiting the system.</span></p></blockquote><p>And how do you prevent griefing?</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Likely the best way to prevent griefing with a "Vote Saboteur" system is to make the combined votes something like an auto-petition to summon a GM to investigate faster than the current, cumbersome individual /petition systems.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Abusing the vote system should incur some penalty, same as abusing the /petition system would.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The faster SOE acts to remove cheaters from the game, the better the overall game experience everyone else has!</span></p></blockquote><p>First, there's no way there would be enough GMs on hand to investigate every single time, and most matches would be over before one could respond. Second, you're getting into very subjective territory - how do you differentiate between a 'cheater' and simply an inexperienced player?</p><p>What you're proposing is likely more costly than simply not doing anything beyond the current AFK voting.</p>

[darcain]

<p><span style="color: #888888;">now here somthing you may not have thoght of im on pvp server me and few my q guildy enter bg bam i group with someone from the freeport side of my server u know the bad guy so we vote him afk now he cant enter bg for 24 hour sweet we just keep doing that get all our gear wile they get none</span></p><p><span style="color: #888888;">2 hm i want free tokens from klak oh i know log 4 toons on group them enter let em afk what can the outher 2 ppl do they cant vote afk cus not anuf there and if they leave they get lock out of bg for such amount of time</span></p><p><span style="color: #888888;">3 i enter bg hit my macro that make me ato run and ato cast </span></p><p><span style="color: #888888;">now tis way i see it if they make it to were u can vote person afk that moving or casting or both then you can vote an someone you dont like out they screwed 2 if you dont have anuff vots u screwed 3 it suck when your stuck with a raid leader that dont care or know how to change leadership if somthing dont go good then you get to lissen to some ja cus about how someone suck till its over </span></p><p><span style="color: #888888;">or get to enter a zone were one group has 2 or 3 healers and other group has none</span></p><p><span style="color: #888888;">they only way i see to fix it is to make it were you can premake crossserver groups with ppl u like and just not have to group with ones u dont want to</span></p><p><span style="color: #888888;">I've been in groups were all we could do is die cus other team was to strong doent meen we wearnt trying out hardest it just means that the way it whent</span></p><p><span style="color: #888888;">outher times ive been in groups were we were the ones kicken but but that doesnt mean the other group wasnt trying just that it was there turn for bad role</span></p>

[Neskonlith]

<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>First, there's no way there would be enough GMs on hand to investigate every single time, and most matches would be over before one could respond. Second, you're getting into very subjective territory - how do you differentiate between a 'cheater' and simply an inexperienced player?</p><p>What you're proposing is likely more costly than simply not doing anything beyond the current AFK voting.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">From my experience, an inexperienced player usually runs out and tries to pvp while making common rookie mistakes, but you can usually see when they are giving it an honest attempt.  Exploiters usually try to hide somewhere inaccessible to kill time and avoid AFK voting, moving or buffing only as necessary.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">"Vote AFK" flags the non-moving players for GM investigation at some point, so why can't "Vote Saboteur" do the same for those exploiters who move their character just enough to prevent "Vote AFK" from functioning?  It would merely be a modification based on the "vote AFK".</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">An exploiter over time would have a noticeable pattern that SOE would be able to investigate to see if action is required when enough votes have triggered a call for action.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Going after the low hanging fruit of obvious exploiters would go a long way towards maintaining integrity of the BeeGees.</span></p>

[StaticLex]

<p>OR!  They can just implement open, anonymous voting for anyone and solve the [Removed for Content] problem in 2 seconds.</p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p>

[crunn]

<p>Sounds very good, ideas for incentive, more quests, more tokens for being the highest hitter etc...</p><p>However that just increases an already serious problem. The Divide of Imbalance.</p><p>The better your gear, the harder you hit, the more you score, the more tokens you get, the harder you hit next time, the more tokens you get, the further down you push the other players.</p><p>The rich get richer, the poor get poorer.</p><p>And why not? You earned it.</p><p>But that makes the game less and less fun for everyone else. All the other players get beaten into submission, broken, demoralised that they cant even hit you anymore, you resist or are immune to everything they have. They give up and stop playing.</p><p>The Divide of Imbalance is already significant. There is already a population of near indestructable players in BG, with a huge population of defeated players who know they cant win against that so they dont try, they go afk or run headlong into death to end it faster. They only play because the BG gear is better than anything in PVE (outside hardcore raiding).</p><p>And so the rich get richer, the poor get poorer and demoralised and depressed from being beaten so very thoroughly over and over, then they go play WoW.</p>

[Mosha D'Khan]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>At one point, I wrote up a post describing how to incentivize the goals that each scenario brings.  I can't find it atm, so I'll recap.</p><p>*  Add new quests that are instantly repeatable, that award tokens. *</p><p>Gears of Klakanon:</p><p>New Quests:</p><p>1.  Hold the relic.  Must hold relic for 60 consecutive seconds.  Requires 5 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>2.  Kill the relic holder.  Requires 7 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>3.  High healer.  Requires 2 updates to complete.  Highest parsing healer in a match gets the update.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>4.  High damage dealer.  Requires 3 updates to complete.  Highest damage dealt.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>5.  Tanking.  Requires 2 updates to complete.  Highest damage taken per spawn.  (Damage taken divided by deaths + 1).  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>Battlefield of Ganak:</p><p>New Quests:</p><p>1.  Capture the Flag.  Self explanatory.  2 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>2.  Kill Flag carrier.  Self explanatory.  4 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>3.  Flag defense.  Kill enemy player within 50m of your flag, while your flag is on the stand.  10 updates to complete, 1 update per kill.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>4.  Flag attack.  Kill enemy player within 50m of their flag while that flag is on the stand.  7 updates to complete, 1 update per kill.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>5.  Carrier defense.  Kill enemy player targeting your flag holder.  2 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>6.  Heal carrier.  Heal friendly flag carrier who is below 70% health.  5 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>7.  High healer.  Healer (per side) with greatest healing output at match end.  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>8.  High damage.  Most damage output (per side) at match end.  2 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>9.  Tanking.  Most damage received per spawn.  (Damage received divided by deaths + 1).  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>Smuggler's Den:</p><p>New Quests:</p><p>1.  Capture Tower.  Take a tower from Nuetral to your color.  8 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>2.  Defend Tower.  Kill enemy player within 100m of a tower you own.  10 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>3.   Assault Tower.  Kill enemy player within 100m of a tower they own.  10 updates to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>4.  High healer.  Healer (per side) with greatest healing output at match end.  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>5.  High damage.  Most damage output (per side) at match end.  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>6.  Tanking.  Most damage received per spawn.  (Damage received divided by deaths + 1).  1 update to complete.  Rewards 1 token.</p><p>The change here is that you are not only incentivizing the victory, you are adding incentive to being an active participant in the tactics that lead to victory.</p></blockquote><p>alot of these are fail ideas.... when i play my necro i will never top heal parse, i will never top dps. rarly top kills and never take that much damage if tank does there job. dont have alot of hp so damage per death ratio is not worth much. most scouts cant be killed if they are going 100% speed and you cant get the rooted in time and stuff. it is a nice idea and good thought and all just for most people there is no way ever that they would complete any of these quest with out playing BG 24/7 and people should not have to do that to complete 1 quest. faster and more likly to get tokens just doing a match</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just solve the AFK-er problem directly, rather than trying to come up with solutions that impact honest players.</p><p>If you're voted AFK, you get 24 hour truancy or something (along with improving the voting system, such as being able to vote players AFK from anywhere on the map, which is supposedly hitting live with the GU).</p></blockquote><p> i like this but make it like a 3 strikes rule.  the first you get the regular 5 minutes the second you get an hour the 3rd 24 hours.</p> <p><cite>Avirodar@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Davngr1, you clearly do not comprehend the point.If 2 or 3 groups invade and take center, 1 of the groups will normally stay to defend, and the other[s] leave. If you played Smugglers much, you will know this.If what you think is a good idea was implemented, no one will want to defend middle. Every single group will want to run around outside, because that is where all the kills+heals+tower caps etc are, and if the idea you like goes live, will be where all the BONUS tokens are. So despite people wanting to WIN, they will want to do what will allow them to WIN and get more BONUS tokens, thus people will fight over not having to stay at center, or simply abandon it.Is it -that- hard for you to comprehend, seriously?</p></blockquote><p> you're talking about the current strat used in smuglers if the way tokens are changed then so will the way people play.    do you understand now? </p><p> btw i have won smuglers many, many times with out a center camp.</p> <p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>rotten idea tbh. it would kill bg's. and open world pvp is dead (don't blame bg's, get smart) so that would suck. but yeah, pre made groups would shut everyone down, and the pug'ers would just get beat down for nothing, and they would get sick of it and stop Q'ing up. yes it sucks when ppl go in and slack, but no need to ruin it for the ppl who pug and give an honest effort.</blockquote><p>  yea prefab's can suck if you're just pug'ing but it's how it is..   people who don't give an honest effort must be delt with because they ruin the game far more then supper guilds that destroy pug's</p>

[Cyra]

<p>I have been voted AFK while actively participating in a match. I received a 5 minute truancy and was mightily ticked off. If truancy was 24 hours I wouldn't play at all. BG is my first PvP experience. I know I'm not the best player but hopefully those who have played with me or against me know I play hard and don't give up easily. I give a hell of an effort. I never thought I'd be voted AFK by anybody. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" /></p><p>The first time I was voted AFK I was actively participating in defending center tower in smugglers den. I was "invisible" standing next to the flag podium watching the activity incoming from air as the other team flew over but refused to land, and watching the pad go up and down.  I moved occasionally but my main purpose was to stand ready and fight when required. I had assisted in many kills and I had already died in defense of that tower, but before the match was won, I was voted afk and felt that I had been shafted out of my 3 tokens. I was so angry. Maybe I should have danced more and concentrated less?</p><p>Most recently I was in a really bad match, again in the den. My group was scattered and wouldn't stay together (I know that never happens to anyone else). I'm a wizard and I was killed about 9 times by nearly every scout and tank I came across. I had not been able to counter the sheer number of scouts playing in this one game and I had no support. I'd try to root/stun one scout, while the other 2-3 danced around me and cut me into pieces in about 2-4 seconds. Every time I rezzed at a spawn point I was immediately cut down by the opposing team until there was just one spawn point left. Somehow I escaped! Feeling pretty good about not giving up another point to the aggressors I ran, cast invisibility, and hid behind a tree watching in one direction for my teammates to come forward, this match was no place to solo, other players had told me to use the geography to hide. I complained in /raid chat. My calls for support were overlooked I can only think was because of the macro spam in the channel. My team came from behind and quickly I was voted AFK before I could move with them to our next target as a group. YAY TEAM</p><p>Sometimes I hide and use the top of a building, side of tower, or top of an aquaduct as an ambush spot especially if my group won't stay together and I am left solo. That doesn't mean my "dot" is AFK. If I can't make it back to MY GROUP I will sometimes invis and wait for more of my raid to come to me, again that doesn't make me AFK, I just don't want to be caught running around alone and score points for the other side. I have a chance to root, stun, blast, rinse, repeat, against one player when I'm solo, add 1-2 more opposing players and I've just become a speed bump and a point for the other team.</p><p>I hate AFK'rs leeching as much as anyone, when toons are obviously out of game play and not moving I have voted for AFK. I wish I had another solution, but having someone vote me AFK from across the zone because my dot is not moving as much as they think it should is not the solution. Griefers are starting to bother me as much as the folks that continually AFK and cause the problem in the first place.<em> </em></p><p><em>I want to come into a good match, play hard, have fun, win or lose and NOT have to figure out if I'm moving around enough to suit someone else on my team while guarding a tower or flag, or hiding from the enemy. To me that is as screwed up as the current game mechanics.</em></p>

[bks6721]

<p><cite>Cyra@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have been voted AFK while actively participating in a match. I received a 5 minute truancy and was mightily ticked off. If truancy was 24 hours I wouldn't play at all. BG is my first PvP experience. I know I'm not the best player but hopefully those who have played with me or against me know I play hard and don't give up easily. I give a hell of an effort. I never thought I'd be voted AFK by anybody. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" /></p><p>The first time I was voted AFK I was actively participating in defending center tower in smugglers den. I was "invisible" standing next to the flag podium watching the activity incoming from air as the other team flew over but refused to land, and watching the pad go up and down.  I moved occasionally but my main purpose was to stand ready and fight when required. I had assisted in many kills and I had already died in defense of that tower, but before the match was won, I was voted afk and felt that I had been shafted out of my 3 tokens. I was so angry. Maybe I should have danced more and concentrated less?</p><p>Most recently I was in a really bad match, again in the den. My group was scattered and wouldn't stay together (I know that never happens to anyone else). I'm a wizard and I was killed about 9 times by nearly every scout and tank I came across. I had not been able to counter the sheer number of scouts playing in this one game and I had no support. I'd try to root/stun one scout, while the other 2-3 danced around me and cut me into pieces in about 2-4 seconds. Every time I rezzed at a spawn point I was immediately cut down by the opposing team until there was just one spawn point left. Somehow I escaped! Feeling pretty good about not giving up another point to the aggressors I ran, cast invisibility, and hid behind a tree watching in one direction for my teammates to come forward, this match was no place to solo, other players had told me to use the geography to hide. I complained in /raid chat. My calls for support were overlooked I can only think was because of the macro spam in the channel. My team came from behind and quickly I was voted AFK before I could move with them to our next target as a group. YAY TEAM</p><p>Sometimes I hide and use the top of a building, side of tower, or top of an aquaduct as an ambush spot especially if my group won't stay together and I am left solo. That doesn't mean my "dot" is AFK. If I can't make it back to MY GROUP I will sometimes invis and wait for more of my raid to come to me, again that doesn't make me AFK, I just don't want to be caught running around alone and score points for the other side. I have a chance to root, stun, blast, rinse, repeat, against one player when I'm solo, add 1-2 more opposing players and I've just become a speed bump and a point for the other team.</p><p>I hate AFK'rs leeching as much as anyone, when toons are obviously out of game play and not moving I have voted for AFK. I wish I had another solution, but having someone vote me AFK from across the zone because my dot is not moving as much as they think it should is not the solution. Griefers are starting to bother me as much as the folks that continually AFK and cause the problem in the first place.<em> </em></p><p><em>I want to come into a good match, play hard, have fun, win or lose and NOT have to figure out if I'm moving around enough to suit someone else on my team while guarding a tower or flag, or hiding from the enemy. To me that is as screwed up as the current game mechanics.</em></p></blockquote><p>hmm..  I was under the impression that if you did "anything" at least every 30 seconds the afk vote wouldn't do anything.  Not sure, as I've never been voted afk.  Maybe quit hiding and it won't be an issue.</p>

[Seiffil]

<p><cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cyra@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have been voted AFK while actively participating in a match. I received a 5 minute truancy and was mightily ticked off. If truancy was 24 hours I wouldn't play at all. BG is my first PvP experience. I know I'm not the best player but hopefully those who have played with me or against me know I play hard and don't give up easily. I give a hell of an effort. I never thought I'd be voted AFK by anybody. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" /></p><p>The first time I was voted AFK I was actively participating in defending center tower in smugglers den. I was "invisible" standing next to the flag podium watching the activity incoming from air as the other team flew over but refused to land, and watching the pad go up and down.  I moved occasionally but my main purpose was to stand ready and fight when required. I had assisted in many kills and I had already died in defense of that tower, but before the match was won, I was voted afk and felt that I had been shafted out of my 3 tokens. I was so angry. Maybe I should have danced more and concentrated less?</p><p>Most recently I was in a really bad match, again in the den. My group was scattered and wouldn't stay together (I know that never happens to anyone else). I'm a wizard and I was killed about 9 times by nearly every scout and tank I came across. I had not been able to counter the sheer number of scouts playing in this one game and I had no support. I'd try to root/stun one scout, while the other 2-3 danced around me and cut me into pieces in about 2-4 seconds. Every time I rezzed at a spawn point I was immediately cut down by the opposing team until there was just one spawn point left. Somehow I escaped! Feeling pretty good about not giving up another point to the aggressors I ran, cast invisibility, and hid behind a tree watching in one direction for my teammates to come forward, this match was no place to solo, other players had told me to use the geography to hide. I complained in /raid chat. My calls for support were overlooked I can only think was because of the macro spam in the channel. My team came from behind and quickly I was voted AFK before I could move with them to our next target as a group. YAY TEAM</p><p>Sometimes I hide and use the top of a building, side of tower, or top of an aquaduct as an ambush spot especially if my group won't stay together and I am left solo. That doesn't mean my "dot" is AFK. If I can't make it back to MY GROUP I will sometimes invis and wait for more of my raid to come to me, again that doesn't make me AFK, I just don't want to be caught running around alone and score points for the other side. I have a chance to root, stun, blast, rinse, repeat, against one player when I'm solo, add 1-2 more opposing players and I've just become a speed bump and a point for the other team.</p><p>I hate AFK'rs leeching as much as anyone, when toons are obviously out of game play and not moving I have voted for AFK. I wish I had another solution, but having someone vote me AFK from across the zone because my dot is not moving as much as they think it should is not the solution. Griefers are starting to bother me as much as the folks that continually AFK and cause the problem in the first place.<em> </em></p><p><em>I want to come into a good match, play hard, have fun, win or lose and NOT have to figure out if I'm moving around enough to suit someone else on my team while guarding a tower or flag, or hiding from the enemy. To me that is as screwed up as the current game mechanics.</em></p></blockquote><p>hmm..  I was under the impression that if you did "anything" at least every 30 seconds the afk vote wouldn't do anything.  Not sure, as I've never been voted afk.  Maybe quit hiding and it won't be an issue.</p></blockquote><p>It's not any action, I think it was rothgar or someone else who said that just moving doesn't count as nullifying the afk vote.</p><p>So in this case, what does it take to just run around throw out a level 1 nuke, and then die horribly repeatedly.</p><p>As for Cyra, not really sure what to say, I've seen plenty of scouts using stealth to setup for attacks when in defense, and have yet to see any of them voted afk.  Some people may find it odd that as a wizard you're invis'd next to the flag in center while waiting for someone to drop down or come up.</p><p>If someone sees you hiding behind trees, buildings, invis, then yes they unfortunately probably will consider the fact that you're afk.  As that's a tactic that is used by some of those who do spend the BG afk, especially in smugglers.</p>

[Zacarus]

<p><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>anyone have any reasons at all why this would not work?</p></blockquote><p>It's bad enough that I go in, get paired with a buncha newbs, and then only come away with 1 token for my effort. If there was a chance I could come away with nothing then I'd either stop doing them entirely or only go with a premade.</p><p>I'm definitely in favor of implementaing something clever to shoot down the AFK leechers though.</p></blockquote><p>Qfe.  I go into bg's solo 90+% of the time.  The life is a bunch of chocolates algorithm dictates my win / lose rate more than my personal contribution.  Only getting 1 token for losing, imo, is just right.</p><p>I wish the Vote Afk mechanic was more clearly explained.</p>

[Neskonlith]

<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Here's something to try to add a little perspective:</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/eq2progressionpathways.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">In pve raids you have more control over the composition of members attending the raid before you start up the 24-person line-dance or Macarena for uber-fabled.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">In BeeGees, Vote AFK is the only tool players have to flag exploiters since the queue system doesn't have a filter to bar out non-performers or saboteurs.</span></p>

[Gungo]

<p>DKP does not equal tokens</p><p>As a guild officer we can and have booted people for sucking at the game from guild. As a guild officer we have taken dkp for people who messed up and suck at the game and wipe the guild.</p><p>When they give me the option to remove YOUR tokens for sucking or replace you in my battlegrounds for sucking you may have a point, but right now you have nothing.</p><p>Also they do not reward the top 50% of the players they reward the top GROUP of players.</p>

[Neskonlith]

<p><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>DKP does not equal tokens</p><p>As a guild officer we can and have booted people for sucking at the game from guild. As a guild officer we have taken dkp for people who messed up and suck at the game and wipe the guild.</p><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">When they give me the option to remove YOUR tokens for sucking or replace you in my battlegrounds for sucking you may have a point, but right now you have nothing.</span></p><p>Also they do not reward <span style="color: #ff00ff;">the top 50% of the players</span> they reward the top GROUP of players.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">A BeeGee Token is essentially BeeGee DKP for the pvp-raid - the pvp-raid targets each other, not a scripted PVE dragon.</span></p><p style="padding-left: 60px;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">x2 raid zone = Gears, top 50% = the winning group gets the 3DKP</span></p><p style="padding-left: 60px;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">x4 raid zone = Ganak, top 50% = the winning x2 gets the 3DKP</span></p><p style="padding-left: 60px;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">x8 raid zone = Smugglers, top 50% = the winning x4 gets the 3DKP</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This topic is about discussing better ways to boot exploiters and leeches so that BeeGees can enjoy a degree of the raid composition control that PVE raids have, hence the thread title: "<strong>no win = no token</strong>".</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Try reading the thread.</span></p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>anyone have any reasons at all why this would not work?</p></blockquote><p>It's bad enough that I go in, get paired with a buncha newbs, and then only come away with 1 token for my effort. If there was a chance I could come away with nothing then I'd either stop doing them entirely or only go with a premade.</p><p>I'm definitely in favor of implementaing something clever to shoot down the AFK leechers though.</p></blockquote><p>Qfe.  I go into bg's solo 90+% of the time.  The life is a bunch of chocolates algorithm dictates my win / lose rate more than my personal contribution.  Only getting 1 token for losing, imo, is just right.</p><p>I wish the Vote Afk mechanic was more clearly explained.</p></blockquote><p> i go in solo ALL the time and make due with what i get.    yes some groups suck but that's how the cookie crumbles, to try and use that to justify people NOT participating because they know they get one token is ridiculous.</p> <p>  matter of fact MOST of my bad groups are do to players that DONT CARE.  IF you DONT CARE about having fun and doing your best, WHY should i (or any other player) have to suffer?     we don't and if this bothered you so much it's because you're one of the people leeching/exploiting imo.</p>

[Cyra]

<p>Why wouldn't invisibility be a valid way to evade being targeted by an invading force while protecting a tower? If a fighter doesn't have see invisibility or if their totem ran out, or they are out of range of a see invisibility spell....it may make it possible for me to get a target on anyone incoming before I'm discovered and killed off.  Invisibility is not an AFK cover, it is a means to reduce my chance of putting a bulls-eye on my chest. Isn't it a common fact that while the opposing team may not see you, your group and raid mates ALWAYS can see a stealthed or invisible raid or group mate? So other than making myself less noticible to the OTHER team, it gains me nothing to be in plain view of my team and invisible.</p><p>I didn't use hiding tactics or invisibility much before the "resist fix", more often than not it was others who turned tail and ran when they saw a robe coming. After the fix I'm afaid that my survivability has been reduced to a few seconds before my horrible death and respawn sequence so I'm trying to use what I have to live longer.  I pick a place with a good view of incoming flight and platform activity and mash my tab target till I get a customer. I'm usually one of the first to begin debuffing even a stealthed or invisible target who has entered range.</p><p>I used my story just to illustrate that you can be fully engaged in trying to protect your teams interests in a match and still be considered AFK because you are standing still. I can't remember in that particular match if I did move more than to rotate my camera view to look for the enemy. I just know that I was playing till the end of the match and was surprised to be ejected from the game. I did learn however that concentration on the objective is less important than /dance, /flirt, /flex, so that everyone thinks you are present.</p><p>AFK folks are a problem, folks that quit playing and whine before the game ends of only getting one token are also annoying. If you go in with the expectation of getting ONE token, you'll be pleased and delighted when you sometimes win THREE. Play till the end, at least you'll have self respect even if no one else believes you were there.</p>

[Elwin]

<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just solve the AFK-er problem directly, rather than trying to come up with solutions that impact honest players.</p><p>If you're voted AFK, you get 24 hour truancy or something (along with improving the voting system, such as being able to vote players AFK from anywhere on the map, which is supposedly hitting live with the GU).</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">"Vote AFK" only catches the lazy, <em>passive</em> AFK players.  </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">We need an additional vote tool to catch the players who refuse to pvp inside the BeeGee but move around enough to stop AFK voting.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">"Vote Saboteur" might work for those ones <em>actively</em> exploiting the system.</span></p></blockquote><p>And how do you prevent griefing?</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Likely the best way to prevent griefing with a "Vote Saboteur" system is to make the combined votes something like an auto-petition to summon a GM to investigate faster than the current, cumbersome individual /petition systems.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Abusing the vote system should incur some penalty, same as abusing the /petition system would.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The faster SOE acts to remove cheaters from the game, the better the overall game experience everyone else has!</span></p></blockquote><p>First, there's no way there would be enough GMs on hand to investigate every single time, and most matches would be over before one could respond. Second, you're getting into very subjective territory - how do you differentiate between a 'cheater' and simply an inexperienced player?</p><p>What you're proposing is likely more costly than simply not doing anything beyond the current AFK voting.</p> </blockquote><p>Something really needs to be done with the constant afk'ers particularly in Smugglers where it seems most hang out (I'm sure most punters reading this will even know exactly who I mean.)</p><p>I'm more than sure the one person I have in mind is not even at their pc but has some bot program to add him/her to Smugglers. The number of times they have ended up as 'afk raid leader' is unreal. You've got to admit you have to be pretty [Removed for Content] quick pressing that button to get in first. Once in they don't run off and hide either. They stand where they spawn and die and respawn and die until either voted out or the match is over.  </p><p>It's easy enough to work out who's afk with a quick alt s when the only numbers listed are in the 'death' column.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="font-size: small;">Constant afk'ers should be -PERMA- banned from Battlegrounds.</span></span></strong> </span><span style="color: #000000;">Forget truancy just keep them out of there all together. </span></p><p>Truancy - I have never once been afk in bg. I have got truancy though from going ld and on one occasion accepting the invite then zoning straight back into game with truancy. At the moment it's 5 minutes so no big deal but if I was to get a longer truancy for nothing I would not be a happy camper.</p><p>Truancy should only be for those that are voted afk unless they can detect the players that go legit ld. </p>

[Disarm]

<p>As a healer, I can root a flag runner and get no credit for the kill unless I do something "agressive" to the flag holder.</p><p>I have also not gotten credit for a kill simply because I did not "heal" during the 2 seconds it takes a scout to kill someone.  Sorry, I healed the scout to full prior to the burn or after they "insta" burned the target.  The other kicker is ranged dps.  If your standing 10 or so meters behind someone and they kill someone at range, you will might not get credit for the kill since target was out side of "credit" range.</p><p>There are so many ways to not get credit for a kill as a healer.  Used to be I would only get credit for 4 out of every 5 kills when out pvp'ing with friends, its one of the reason as a healer, I never really cared about open world pvp.  Was already a pain to have to find a group to get 'tokens' and then to have to deal with all the issues were a healer would not get credit was just insult to injury for the most part.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p>You must be a noob because I almost always top the kill count on my healer.</p>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<p><cite>crunn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sounds very good, ideas for incentive, more quests, more tokens for being the highest hitter etc...</p><p>However that just increases an already serious problem. The Divide of Imbalance.</p><p>The better your gear, the harder you hit, the more you score, the more tokens you get, the harder you hit next time, the more tokens you get, the further down you push the other players.</p><p>The rich get richer, the poor get poorer.</p><p>And why not? You earned it.</p><p>But that makes the game less and less fun for everyone else. All the other players get beaten into submission, broken, demoralised that they cant even hit you anymore, you resist or are immune to everything they have. They give up and stop playing.</p><p>The Divide of Imbalance is already significant. There is already a population of near indestructable players in BG, with a huge population of defeated players who know they cant win against that so they dont try, they go afk or run headlong into death to end it faster. They only play because the BG gear is better than anything in PVE (outside hardcore raiding).</p><p>And so the rich get richer, the poor get poorer and demoralised and depressed from being beaten so very thoroughly over and over, then they go play WoW.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p><p>Hardcore people need an endless supply of noobs to 1-shot to make the game enjoyable for them.</p><p>If said supply of noobs aren't rewarded substantially, then the supply ceases to be endless, hardcore people are forced to fight each other, start to get a 50% win/loss ratio, and then quit because they're hardcore and don't like to lose.</p>

[Elwin]

<p><cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>crunn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The Divide of Imbalance is already significant. <strong>There is already a population of near indestructable players in BG, with a huge population of defeated players who know they cant win against that so they dont try, they go afk or run headlong into death to end it faster. They only play because the BG gear is better than anything in PVE (outside hardcore raiding).</strong><p>And so the rich get richer, the poor get poorer and demoralised and depressed from being beaten so very thoroughly over and over, then they go play WoW.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p><p>Hardcore people need an endless supply of noobs to 1-shot to make the game enjoyable for them.</p><p>If said supply of noobs aren't rewarded substantially, then the supply ceases to be endless, hardcore people are forced to fight each other, start to get a 50% win/loss ratio, and then quit because they're hardcore and don't like to lose.</p></blockquote><p>If you're only in BG to get gear for PvE stay the hell out or go ahead and play WoW.</p><p>BG is not the place to AFK and everyone has the same access to the tokens. Your comments FAIL.</p>

[Greggthegrmreapr]

<p>Honestly, I didn't even read the whole thread.  But no.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p><cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>crunn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sounds very good, ideas for incentive, more quests, more tokens for being the highest hitter etc...</p><p>However that just increases an already serious problem. The Divide of Imbalance.</p><p>The better your gear, the harder you hit, the more you score, the more tokens you get, the harder you hit next time, the more tokens you get, the further down you push the other players.</p><p>The rich get richer, the poor get poorer.</p><p>And why not? You earned it.</p><p>But that makes the game less and less fun for everyone else. All the other players get beaten into submission, broken, demoralised that they cant even hit you anymore, you resist or are immune to everything they have. They give up and stop playing.</p><p>The Divide of Imbalance is already significant. There is already a population of near indestructable players in BG, with a huge population of defeated players who know they cant win against that so they dont try, they go afk or run headlong into death to end it faster. They only play because the BG gear is better than anything in PVE (outside hardcore raiding).</p><p>And so the rich get richer, the poor get poorer and demoralised and depressed from being beaten so very thoroughly over and over, then they go play WoW.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p><p>Hardcore people need an endless supply of noobs to 1-shot to make the game enjoyable for them.</p><p>If said supply of noobs aren't rewarded substantially, then the supply ceases to be endless, hardcore people are forced to fight each other, start to get a 50% win/loss ratio, and then quit because they're hardcore and don't like to lose.</p></blockquote><p>Actually, a mix of noobs and hard-to-kill people are preferable.  Extremes of either make the game boring.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p>I agree, Even though I'm working on trying to get my gimpe Inq some AA's in there, if I lose, I deserve nothing.</p>

[Dareena]

<p>When you enter a BG scenerio as a complete PUG through its messed up queing system, you'll often get some really lop sided groups.  Sometimes one side or the other is just majorly loaded.  Other times you'll get everything you need to win on paper, but the players behond those characters start to seriously make you question whether they're just completely incompetant or trying to intentionally throw the game.  But since the average "possibly throwing the game" player manages to also draw a match out until the end of the time limit as well (while ensuring that their team loses), I'm usually willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and just call them "clueless".</p><p>My point is that the BG system seems to be designed to encourage cross-server PUGs.  By making it so that the losing team gets nothing for their loss, you're basically wanting to change the BG environment so that you'll only want to enter it as a pre-made BG group.  As I'm understanding it, you're basically trying to defeat the fundamental purpose of the BG system.</p><p>Then you also get the BG streaks.  When I was playing late Friday night, I was on fire!  Any group in any scenerio I entered as a pure PUG always won.  In fact, we almost always crushed the other team mercilessly.  This streak continued on for about 2 hours until I logged for the night after a couple of losses.  Then we fast forward to my playing some on Saturday afternoon.  Appearantly my karmic back swing was due because any group I touched always lost.  To be more accurate, we got completely crushed and blown out.  Even if I managed to get the heavy hitters from my last BG instance on my team, we still lost.</p><p>I'm a decent player at my class.  To be honest, I'm probably good.  Once I get enough BG gear (since I just started running them at 90th a couple of weeks ago), I might even be considered great.  But regardless of a player's personal knowledge and skills, you can't always win a BG scenerio.  To be more accurate, some scenerios are impossible to win.  A single person can only do so much to influence the flow of events and we have even less impact in the larger scenerios.  So when you have people who refuse to listen to people taking leadership roles and don't have instinctive tactical cohesion, you'll ose.</p><p>While I personally loathe token leachers who aren't genuinely trying to help your team, I can't think of a way that we could change the token situation without creating new problem.  I mean, what you if could into a permanent loss scenerio like I recently experience for a couple of hours.  Yes, you would get some AA or combat xp.  But investing 2 hours of your life in the BGs and getting 0 tokens is just depressing.  I'd wager that if people got enough of a losing streak (due to their own fault or factors beyond their control), then they'd stop playing the BGs.  This would lead to bad players not improving over time and good players being forced to run the BGs in loaded pre-made groups.  Both results would be very negative for the long term health of the BG system.</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Charlice@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you're only in BG to get gear for PvE stay the hell out or go ahead and play WoW.</p><p>BG is not the place to AFK and everyone has the same access to the tokens. Your comments FAIL.</p></blockquote><p>Blame SOE for making BG gear too good.</p>

[crunn]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Charlice@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you're only in BG to get gear for PvE stay the hell out or go ahead and play WoW.</p><p>BG is not the place to AFK and everyone has the same access to the tokens. Your comments FAIL.</p></blockquote><p>Blame SOE for making BG gear too good.</p></blockquote><p>Indeed.</p><p>And Charlice your statment FAILed to make any sence. BG gear is better than almost anything in PVE so why wouldnt everyone want to get some?</p><p>Everyone does not have "the same access to the tokens". Premade, hardcore, raiders and PVP players will win most of the time, will have three times the tokens of other players, will be better equipped and gradualy improve thier already high-win ratio. Thus accelerating the number of tokens they have access to. Conversly everyone else will loose more than they win, steadily over time the casual players will loose more and more as the hardcore reach thier peak.</p><p>I have good days and bad, but already i find on an average day doing BG pugs i probably loose 85%. Im always plesantly suprised when i win more than a single match in an evening. Enjoying or not i would absolutley not play BG if i got zero tokens for a loose. Playing a few hours in the evening and getting zero for my time and efforts would be simple stupidity. Getting only one token for a loose even when i tried my damndest came prety high on the ranks and out performend more than half of the winning team just furthers my dissillusionment of the whole thing.</p><p>(on an unconnected note, speaking of simple stupididty, a pet hate of mine, why do so many people lately insist on using the word FAIL wrongly? its a verb plain and simple, dont use it as an impropper noun or an adjective or anything else. Use it propperly or go back to school)</p>

[Aule]

<p><cite>crunn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Charlice@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you're only in BG to get gear for PvE stay the hell out or go ahead and play WoW.</p><p>BG is not the place to AFK and everyone has the same access to the tokens. Your comments FAIL.</p></blockquote><p>Blame SOE for making BG gear too good.</p></blockquote><p>Indeed.</p></blockquote><p>BG is the current SOE baby.  They need to be able to point at BG and say how successful the project was, that it has been adopted by xx% of the playerbase, that the development man-hours was justified, etc etc.</p><p>Therefore, gear was put in that is better than what's available through the vast majority of the PVE experience to incentivize min/maxers to BG even if they would prefer not to.  If the gear rewards were removed, or were flagged as PVP only, then you would see a massive drop-off in the number of people using this resource.</p><p>They gave away small amounts of station cash for free and moved server transfers to station cash so that they could do a (Y/N) search on accounts that have used station cash a single time.  This allowed them to report that a very high percentage of the players make use of the station cash feature showing that it has been widely endorsed by the playerbase.  This is the same thing.</p><p>I would prefer to hang out with my friends and cruise zones.  I can't, almost all my friends are all in BG's earning food pellets to trade for gear.  Many of them complaining the whole way about how much they hate BG's and that they only have a few more pieces of gear to go.</p>

[crunn]

<p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>/snip </p><p>I would prefer to hang out with my friends and cruise zones.  I can't, almost all my friends are all in BG's earning food pellets to trade for gear.  Many of them complaining the whole way about how much they hate BG's and that they only have a few more pieces of gear to go.</p></blockquote><p>Absolutely. Most of my guild boycot it out of principle. Those few that do BG are only doing it for the gear and will stop once they have it. I will stop once i have mine and never look back. I see lots of people on lvl chat complaing about how much BG sucks.</p><p>I suspect that a few months from now once most people have thier gear BG will turn ghost town. much like arena is.</p>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Charlice@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you're only in BG to get gear for PvE stay the hell out or go ahead and play WoW.</p><p>BG is not the place to AFK and everyone has the same access to the tokens. Your comments FAIL.</p></blockquote><p>Blame SOE for making BG gear too good.</p></blockquote><p>Remember the Maj'Dul Arena and how successful PvP without decent rewards is?</p><p>In fact, the Maj'Dul gameplay is very little different from BGs. People even say they want deathmatch etc. in BGs when it's already available in the Arena. But nobody cares, because there's no reward.</p><p>PvP purists may well say that anyone in there primarily to get PvE gear shouldn't be there. And hardcore raiders may well be disgruntled that the gear is often equivalent to theirs vs solo or heroic content.</p><p>But I think both communities would find that battlegrounds die a slow death if they don't cater to casuals who want to be able to grind out raid quality gear without needing to commit to certain hours of playtime. It's the fact they provide this function that has led to BGs being reasonably successful, not - unfortunately - the design or gameplay. I can definitely see from a purists perspective how this is 'a bad thing', and I'm sure if I hadn't quit raiding this xpak I'd be b****ing about it too, but BGs would die without it.</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can definitely see from a purists perspective how this is 'a bad thing', and I'm sure if I hadn't quit raiding this xpak I'd be b****ing about it too, but BGs would die without it.</p></blockquote><p>Of course BGs would die without this overpowered gear and SOE knows it.  That is why each "season" of BGs will feature additional gear that is better than what everyone has so just about the time everyone is geared up and the BG use slows down they can patch in a new season with new rewards and keep people playing it.</p><p>The fact is, and SOE knows it, if mark gear was comparable to BG gear hardly anyone would use BGs and they'd die the same death the Maj'Dul arena did.</p><p>BG use is skewed because SOE itemized them in a way that makes them viable for PvE while also being easier to acquire than any PvE gear.</p>

[Elwin]

<p><cite>crunn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Charlice@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you're only in BG to get gear for PvE stay the hell out or go ahead and play WoW.</p><p>BG is not the place to AFK and everyone has the same access to the tokens. Your comments FAIL.</p></blockquote><p>Blame SOE for making BG gear too good.</p></blockquote><p>Indeed.</p><p>And Charlice your statment FAILed to make any sence. BG gear is better than almost anything in PVE so why wouldnt everyone want to get some?</p><p>Everyone does not have "the same access to the tokens". Premade, hardcore, raiders and PVP players will win most of the time, will have three times the tokens of other players, will be better equipped and gradualy improve thier already high-win ratio. Thus accelerating the number of tokens they have access to. Conversly everyone else will loose more than they win, steadily over time the casual players will loose more and more as the hardcore reach thier peak.</p><p>I have good days and bad, but already i find on an average day doing BG pugs i probably loose 85%. Im always plesantly suprised when i win more than a single match in an evening. Enjoying or not i would absolutley not play BG if i got zero tokens for a loose. Playing a few hours in the evening and getting zero for my time and efforts would be simple stupidity. Getting only one token for a loose even when i tried my damndest came prety high on the ranks and out performend more than half of the winning team just furthers my dissillusionment of the whole thing.</p><p>(on an unconnected note, speaking of simple stupididty, a pet hate of mine, why do so many people lately insist on using the word FAIL wrongly? its a verb plain and simple, dont use it as an impropper noun or an adjective or anything else. Use it propperly or go back to school)</p></blockquote><p>Ok sorry for my statement. I guess it's ok with you then to go to bg and go afk or just randomly run around dying to get tokens??</p><p><strong>Maybe you should re-read the quote I was replying to. </strong></p><p>I don't agree with no token for no win. I think it should stay just as it is. The only thing that really gets me is the number of afk players that continue to zone in. </p><p>If you're going to afk as soon as you zone in, if you don't enjoy bg why bother with bg armor? Most of it (ok not all) is only good for BG. So again to the afk'ers. Go play WoW go get REAL PvE armor from instances and stay the hell out of BG.</p><p>As for you saying not all players have the same access to tokens I call bs. You win some you lose some, simple really.</p><p>Oh and thank you for your lesson in English, it is muchly appreciated.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>BG gear is terrible vs raid gear, both in pve and pvp if you cant tell that then gear is not your biggest problem.</p><p>You want good gear for pvp and pve?  Raid</p>

[Aule]

BG jewelry is better than any of the easy mode jewelry, and there's plenty of guilds that haven't cleared the easy mode stuff. A number of the jewelry slots have items that have no comparison, even looking at hard mode stuff.

[crunn]

<p><cite>Charlice@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>crunn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Charlice@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you're only in BG to get gear for PvE stay the hell out or go ahead and play WoW.</p><p>BG is not the place to AFK and everyone has the same access to the tokens. Your comments FAIL.</p></blockquote><p>Blame SOE for making BG gear too good.</p></blockquote><p>Indeed.</p><p>And Charlice your statment FAILed to make any sence. BG gear is better than almost anything in PVE so why wouldnt everyone want to get some?</p><p>Everyone does not have "the same access to the tokens". Premade, hardcore, raiders and PVP players will win most of the time, will have three times the tokens of other players, will be better equipped and gradualy improve thier already high-win ratio. Thus accelerating the number of tokens they have access to. Conversly everyone else will loose more than they win, steadily over time the casual players will loose more and more as the hardcore reach thier peak.</p><p>I have good days and bad, but already i find on an average day doing BG pugs i probably loose 85%. Im always plesantly suprised when i win more than a single match in an evening. Enjoying or not i would absolutley not play BG if i got zero tokens for a loose. Playing a few hours in the evening and getting zero for my time and efforts would be simple stupidity. Getting only one token for a loose even when i tried my damndest came prety high on the ranks and out performend more than half of the winning team just furthers my dissillusionment of the whole thing.</p><p>(on an unconnected note, speaking of simple stupididty, a pet hate of mine, why do so many people lately insist on using the word FAIL wrongly? its a verb plain and simple, dont use it as an impropper noun or an adjective or anything else. Use it propperly or go back to school)</p></blockquote><p>Ok sorry for my statement. I guess it's ok with you then to go to bg and go afk or just randomly run around dying to get tokens??</p><p><strong>Maybe you should re-read the quote I was replying to. </strong></p><p>I don't agree with no token for no win. I think it should stay just as it is. The only thing that really gets me is the number of afk players that continue to zone in. </p><p>If you're going to afk as soon as you zone in, if you don't enjoy bg why bother with bg armor? Most of it (ok not all) is only good for BG. So again to the afk'ers. Go play WoW go get REAL PvE armor from instances and stay the hell out of BG.</p><p>As for you saying not all players have the same access to tokens I call bs. You win some you lose some, simple really.</p><p>Oh and thank you for your lesson in English, it is muchly appreciated.</p></blockquote><p>I wrote the quote you were replying to. If you noticed i dont condone the AFK-ers, actualy i go out of my way to vote them out and sometimes i have words with those deliberatly running to thier deaths if there is any chance of winning.</p><p>I do however completely understand both. Even sympathise with them. I know how they feel, i dont do it but i understand.</p><p>Also omg have you no concept of numbers? You seriously think that the random solo casual nobody doing pug BG will be able to win as many tokens as the hardcore premade PVP players? Dont be rediculous.</p><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>BG gear is terrible vs raid gear, both in pve and pvp if you cant tell that then gear is not your biggest problem.</p><p>You want good gear for pvp and pve?  Raid</p></blockquote><p>not everyone likes to raid, not everyone can raid, but everyone can BG</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p><cite>crunn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Charlice@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>crunn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Charlice@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you're only in BG to get gear for PvE stay the hell out or go ahead and play WoW.</p><p>BG is not the place to AFK and everyone has the same access to the tokens. Your comments FAIL.</p></blockquote><p>Blame SOE for making BG gear too good.</p></blockquote><p>Indeed.</p><p>And Charlice your statment FAILed to make any sence. BG gear is better than almost anything in PVE so why wouldnt everyone want to get some?</p><p>Everyone does not have "the same access to the tokens". Premade, hardcore, raiders and PVP players will win most of the time, will have three times the tokens of other players, will be better equipped and gradualy improve thier already high-win ratio. Thus accelerating the number of tokens they have access to. Conversly everyone else will loose more than they win, steadily over time the casual players will loose more and more as the hardcore reach thier peak.</p><p>I have good days and bad, but already i find on an average day doing BG pugs i probably loose 85%. Im always plesantly suprised when i win more than a single match in an evening. Enjoying or not i would absolutley not play BG if i got zero tokens for a loose. Playing a few hours in the evening and getting zero for my time and efforts would be simple stupidity. Getting only one token for a loose even when i tried my damndest came prety high on the ranks and out performend more than half of the winning team just furthers my dissillusionment of the whole thing.</p><p>(on an unconnected note, speaking of simple stupididty, a pet hate of mine, why do so many people lately insist on using the word FAIL wrongly? its a verb plain and simple, dont use it as an impropper noun or an adjective or anything else. Use it propperly or go back to school)</p></blockquote><p>Ok sorry for my statement. I guess it's ok with you then to go to bg and go afk or just randomly run around dying to get tokens??</p><p><strong>Maybe you should re-read the quote I was replying to. </strong></p><p>I don't agree with no token for no win. I think it should stay just as it is. The only thing that really gets me is the number of afk players that continue to zone in. </p><p>If you're going to afk as soon as you zone in, if you don't enjoy bg why bother with bg armor? Most of it (ok not all) is only good for BG. So again to the afk'ers. Go play WoW go get REAL PvE armor from instances and stay the hell out of BG.</p><p>As for you saying not all players have the same access to tokens I call bs. You win some you lose some, simple really.</p><p>Oh and thank you for your lesson in English, it is muchly appreciated.</p></blockquote><p>I wrote the quote you were replying to. If you noticed i dont condone the AFK-ers, actualy i go out of my way to vote them out and sometimes i have words with those deliberatly running to thier deaths if there is any chance of winning.</p><p>I do however completely understand both. Even sympathise with them. I know how they feel, i dont do it but i understand.</p><p>Also omg have you no concept of numbers? You seriously think that the random solo casual nobody doing pug BG will be able to win as many tokens as the hardcore premade PVP players? Dont be rediculous.</p><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>BG gear is terrible vs raid gear, both in pve and pvp if you cant tell that then gear is not your biggest problem.</p><p>You want good gear for pvp and pve?  Raid</p></blockquote><p>not everyone likes to raid, not everyone can raid, but everyone can BG</p></blockquote><p>How can not everyone BG? Every can, people choose not to use their time for that. You can't even really solo quest in the time it takes to do a BG.</p>

[Elwin]

<p><cite>crunn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Charlice@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>crunn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Charlice@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you're only in BG to get gear for PvE stay the hell out or go ahead and play WoW.</p><p>BG is not the place to AFK and everyone has the same access to the tokens. Your comments FAIL.</p></blockquote><p>Blame SOE for making BG gear too good.</p></blockquote><p>Indeed.</p><p>And Charlice your statment FAILed to make any sence. BG gear is better than almost anything in PVE so why wouldnt everyone want to get some?</p><p>Everyone does not have "the same access to the tokens". Premade, hardcore, raiders and PVP players will win most of the time, will have three times the tokens of other players, will be better equipped and gradualy improve thier already high-win ratio. Thus accelerating the number of tokens they have access to. Conversly everyone else will loose more than they win, steadily over time the casual players will loose more and more as the hardcore reach thier peak.</p><p>I have good days and bad, but already i find on an average day doing BG pugs i probably loose 85%. Im always plesantly suprised when i win more than a single match in an evening. Enjoying or not i would absolutley not play BG if i got zero tokens for a loose. Playing a few hours in the evening and getting zero for my time and efforts would be simple stupidity. Getting only one token for a loose even when i tried my damndest came prety high on the ranks and out performend more than half of the winning team just furthers my dissillusionment of the whole thing.</p><p>(on an unconnected note, speaking of simple stupididty, a pet hate of mine, why do so many people lately insist on using the word FAIL wrongly? its a verb plain and simple, dont use it as an impropper noun or an adjective or anything else. Use it propperly or go back to school)</p></blockquote><p>Ok sorry for my statement. I guess it's ok with you then to go to bg and go afk or just randomly run around dying to get tokens??</p><p><strong>Maybe you should re-read the quote I was replying to. </strong></p><p>I don't agree with no token for no win. I think it should stay just as it is. The only thing that really gets me is the number of afk players that continue to zone in. </p><p>If you're going to afk as soon as you zone in, if you don't enjoy bg why bother with bg armor? Most of it (ok not all) is only good for BG. So again to the afk'ers. Go play WoW go get REAL PvE armor from instances and stay the hell out of BG.</p><p>As for you saying not all players have the same access to tokens I call bs. You win some you lose some, simple really.</p><p>Oh and thank you for your lesson in English, it is muchly appreciated.</p></blockquote><p>I wrote the quote you were replying to. If you noticed i dont condone the AFK-ers, actualy i go out of my way to vote them out and sometimes i have words with those deliberatly running to thier deaths if there is any chance of winning.</p><p>I do however completely understand both. Even sympathise with them. I know how they feel, i dont do it but i understand.</p><p><strong>Also omg have you no concept of numbers? You seriously think that the random solo casual nobody doing pug BG will be able to win as many tokens as the hardcore premade PVP players? Dont be rediculous.</strong></p><p><strong> </strong></p><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>BG gear is terrible vs raid gear, both in pve and pvp if you cant tell that then gear is not your biggest problem.</p><p>You want good gear for pvp and pve?  Raid</p></blockquote><p><strong>not everyone likes to raid, not everyone can raid, but everyone can BG</strong></p></blockquote><p>There is nothing at all wrong with my concept of numbers thank you very much. I play on a US server. I live in Australia so I am not on in prime US play time.</p><p>I am one of the random BG pu group players. I have 3 level 90 toons. One has 16 pcs of BG gear, the other has 18 pcs.</p><p>Stop crying ffs.</p>