Mythical Nerf, again

[Banditman]

<p>Dear SOE,</p><p>As a Mystic playing EQ2 since release, I've seen the ebb and flow of the game.  There is a major trend towards incessant little things continuing to add up until a complete mess is all that remains.  Thus, when I see the tides over the past six months in one of the classes I play, my concern is well founded.</p><p>Upon release of Sentinel's Fate, the Mystic Mythical was nerfed quite substantially.  Despite the fact that this item had been in game for almost two years in that form, the item was deemed inappropriate.</p><p>Now, three months later, we're being asked to swallow another nerf to the same item (more accurately, the ability derived from that item).  To make matters worse, the nerf was done without note or explanation, it was left to the players to discover.</p><p>Enough is enough.  The most recent change to our Mythical ability is unwarranted.  We are being asked to simply accept this as necessary, while no one can point to a reason why this is so.  It's this constant erosion of abilities that eventually leads to a class needing a large scale pass at balance.  Stop now.  Don't let this class continue down that road to become the next "Coercer", "Ranger" or "Shadow Knight".</p><p>Reverse the unneeded change to our ability before this hits the live servers in two weeks.  It doesn't make any sense at all.</p><p>Thank you.</p>

[Adegx]

<p>Can you clairfy what nerf you are refering to?</p>

[Nukla]

<p>I was always under the idea that all it added in the first place was ability mod and not potency? 30% of wisdom = potency... that'd be nuts. Or am I not understanding something. I know I'm 1592 wisdom self buffed but unbolstered, 30% of that would be 477.6. Are you saying the myth adds 477.6% potency to my spells, because I honestly don't think it does.</p><p>In fact on live I tested it. On live I'm at 60.4% potency and 684 ability mod (although I'm not sure either of that should matter in these tests, but putting it up here nevertheless). My group ward with my myth buff on does 8689, my group ward without the myth buff does 8212. 8689-8212=477! Now my single ward does 5509 with my myth buff, and without does 5036, 5509-5036=473. At that point I think I might be hitting the ability mod cap for the spell. If I take off ancestral avatar and lower my wis by 71.3. At 1521 or 456.3 ability mod. 5492 single ward with myth, and 5036 without. 5492-5036=456. So it works out there. Either way it seems to me it's already only adding ability mod. Again unless I'm not understanding or missing something.</p><p>Although I will agree it no longer affecting torpor and runic armor really sucks and I'd like to see that change not happen. And please if I'm wrong let me know.</p><p>-Korack the Ogre Shaman</p>

[Hene]

<p><cite>Nuklaim wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I was always under the idea that all it added in the first place was ability mod and not potency? 30% of wisdom = potency... that'd be nuts. Or am I not understanding something. I know I'm 1592 wisdom self buffed but unbolstered, 30% of that would be 477.6. Are you saying the myth adds 477.6% potency to my spells, because I honestly don't think it does.</p><p>In fact on live I tested it. On live I'm at 60.4% potency and 684 ability mod (although I'm not sure either of that should matter in these tests, but putting it up here nevertheless). My group ward with my myth buff on does 8689, my group ward without the myth buff does 8212. 8689-8212=477! Now my single ward does 5509 with my myth buff, and without does 5036, 5509-5036=473. At that point I think I might be hitting the ability mod cap for the spell. If I take off ancestral avatar and lower my wis by 71.3. At 1521 or 456.3 ability mod. 5492 single ward with myth, and 5036 without. 5492-5036=456. So it works out there. Either way it seems to me it's already only adding ability mod. Again unless I'm not understanding or missing something.</p><p>Although I will agree it no longer affecting torpor and runic armor really sucks and I'd like to see that change not happen. And please if I'm wrong let me know.</p><p>-Korack the Ogre Shaman</p></blockquote><p>no it would add 477.6 potency. So if your ward does 2400 base, then you would get 477.6/2400 = 19.9% potency</p><p>and keep in mind that you are <strong><em>well beyond the cap on ability mod for runic and torpor</em></strong>, therefore it is clear that the mythical is not, in fact, adding ability mod, but instead potency "mod"</p>

[Nukla]

<p>Ok like I said, if i was wrong then let me know and seems I was. So disregard what I said above. And yeah then I am [Removed for Content] off about this change. I understand with potency uncapped and with future expansions this "could" be an issue as wisdom continues to climb. But will wisdom climb at such a pace that this will become an issue? Probably not. Especially the way the potency is added to the spell as per the above poster said. So I'm behind this nerf getting changed back to being potency added instead of ability mod.</p><p>Also I was always confused how runic armour/torpor got such a huge jump, but I guess I ignored that issue in my math =P.</p><p>-Korack the Ogre Shaman</p>

[vallfang]

<p>so sad, this is huge nerf. ninja huge nerf. I hate</p>

[Banadux]

<p>/sign</p>

[Thunderthyze]

<p>I knew we should never have mentioned anything about it when we found out. SOE's policy seems to be to search out the small knots of people jumping up and down with joy on the forums and whack them where it hurts most. After all, we should know by now that SOE's image of a priest is a cure-bot, nothing else is important.</p>

[Xill]

<p>I can understand the idea. With potency uncapped it would give us a decided advantage in ward size compared to defilers. But at the same time it will be nearly useless if left as it is unless you uncap ability mod as well.</p>

[Hene]

<p>Well, the extra ~400 points added to most of our wards will be practically negligible...the only thing that counts (for all mystics) is torpor and runic armor, neither of which will become uber/overpowered with an added 400 points.  Yes a 1k point runic armor will be nice and help quite a bit, but defilers have crit bonus added to their AE ward-buff, making up for the extra physical healing help we get.</p><p>Idk what the equivalent to torpor is for defilers, but again, the 400 points don't do give us that much of an edge over defilers...plus it's not like their mythical doesn't have a buff</p>

[snowli]

<p>Changing the mystic mythical effect from potency to ability mod is totally useless I think for someone who has a fury mod buff when raiding, and as stated messes up things like runic armour and torpor.</p><p>Runic armor LIVE 544</p><p>Runic armor TEST 413</p><p>Torpor LIVE 3602</p><p>Torpor TEST 2679</p><p>etc</p><p>If they're going to nerf the mystic mythical then they could do something sodding useful at the same time, like turning the pointless 15% groupwide DA proc into a 10% groupwide Ability Reuse, or stop crit bonus only applying half to wards and change it to just beginning at 1.15 rather than 1.3, or the amount of situations that bypass wards, e.g. mob in palace, relics in gears BG's and so on.</p>

[snowli]

<p>I got some time to compare the changes to wards with the new test formula for the mythical bonus adding ability mod that we could be saddled with, versus the current way where it adds potency. The results were pretty alarming.</p><p>Ancestral Ward 10% less benefit</p><p>Umbral Ward 3% less benefit (because of it's high cap for ability mod)</p><p>Oberon 18% less benefit</p><p>Torpor actually decreases by 31% !</p><p>Runic Armor actually decreases 24% !</p><p>It's a pretty harsh nerf to mystics, and if possible it needs to be stopped before it hits live - not changing the existing formula is much better for us I think, all the potency possible is needed with critbonus being halved for wards.</p><p>With the new version of the formula, anytime you get a fury buff the new mythical effect becomes useless I think (can't test that on test) and if you have good adornments for ability (I don't currently) it also makes the mythical effect useless. So the more you work at your gear the more redundant your myth buff becomes, that can't be intended.</p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>Hene wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Idk what the equivalent to torpor is for defilers, but again, the 400 points don't do give us that much of an edge over defilers...plus it's not like their mythical doesn't have a buff</p></blockquote><p>Defilers don't really get anything like Torpor.  Torpor was added as a L52 Ancient Teaching back in DoF.  At L52, Defilers got Soul Cannibalize, which does damage to the mob and returns power to the Defiler.  That's a pretty strong ability, but it's not really comparable to Torpor.</p><p>And yes, this nerf needs to go away before the stupid thing goes live.</p>

[Travleer33]

<p>I hope it doesnt sound like emo ragiing, but if thsi goes live I don't think I'll continue subscribing to this game.</p><p>I find it extremely disturbing that there has not been a dev reply to any of the multiple threads on this issue that can be found on several forums. This is a huge nerf.</p><p>Maybe they would pay more attention if there was more noise about it, but I'm pretty sure 99% of the players or more are completely unaware of it.</p>

[Joramora]

<p>The nerf makes no-sense, I hope it does not make it to the life servers.</p>

[snowli]

<p><span ><p>I took off a couple of potency items (like neck & shoulders) so I wouldn't run into the problem of the potency ceiling on live not being in effect on test slanting results and then compared the exact same gear setups between test and live (both while in my house which is not a pvp zone - if that even matters).</p><p>My groupward buff runic armour drops from 544 currently to 413 on test</p><p>Torpor the quick regenerating single target drops from 3602 on live to 2679 on test (it has a lot of quick ticks so that adds up to a ton of healing)</p><p>Oberon drops from 8864 per tick on live to 7306 per tick on test. again, huge loss across lots of ticks.</p><p>Ancestral from 4880 live to 4384 on test</p><p>Umbral from 6654 on live to 6425 on test</p><p>The basic upshot is, when the new way of working things out comes to live, the increase in potency cap might see your healing change in a variety of ways, (afterall everyone has different setups ability mobs potency spell quality etc) it's possible you may not see that the big nerf has robbed you of a very large part of the increase that other healers are receiving.</p><p>Either fury and mystic deserved a massive nerf because we were way above other healers and the devs need to say so, or they need to remove a selective nerf to just us (if templars really are unaffected as someone has mentioned).</p><p>It's worth noting it's sort of a double nerf in some situations, by changing the wisdom potency bonus into ability mod, it means the excellant fury buff that I get in raids could soon be in many cases redundant, I will no longer have the potency for many spells to take advantage of it, and my ability mod despite being higher will actually already be capped far lower for most spells. So it nerfs both furies giving out myth buff and in my case a mystic receiving it.</p><p><em>If you want to check the changes for your healer with your gear, do make sure your potency in live is set low enough that it doesn't cap out then mirror that gear/aa/stance selection to test - that way you see the change in mythical effect, and not 1 set of live heal figures that are held down by the potency cap and the test set that can go above the potency cap.</em></p></span></p>

[ATTHWSM]

<p>/sign</p><p>Really?  I already posted in the In development forum about this same thread, but to reiterate why this is dumb here we go. </p><p>No one, at all, anywhere, is complaining about this issue.  Who said that the fury/mystic myth was OP now?  Where was the outcry for change on this from other healers?  Come on SOE, Furys?  Really?  What raid guild actively recruits for a fury?  Furys and Mystics are the 2 most underplayed healers in the game, and now you decide to take away even more from an agreed upon [Removed for Content] class? </p><p>What I love is that lots of people are complaining about lots of issues, and agree on things that need change, and yet instead of fixing them, you decide to fix something that is not and will not be broken?  Really?  Who cares if if Runic Armor got a beefy upgrade, 90% of mobs dont have huge physical AOES, so the ward isnt stopping anything other than AOE auto on ur melee.  Do mystics cry out that the Defiler equivelant is OP?  No we dont, we accept that they have an awesome ability, and move on.  With that said, again, your fixing something that NO ONE is complaining about, not the class's playing, nor  other competeing healers.  </p><p>SOE, look at this problem.  Will LEAVING this as is, DRASTICALLY make a huge difference in the want/need and ability of Mystics or Furys?  The answer is no.  The same people will play them, and that is that.  There isnt going to be some HUGE PLing fast of mystics and furys come thisupdate like there was with SKs during TSO, because the way the myth works now, isnt OP, and helps the class shine where they wouldnt otherwise.</p><p>You already decided that changing the Mystic myth clicky 2 years after release was a good idea, when no one was complaining about that either, lets not screw us over again, were not exactly a huge player base here. </p>

[Hene]

<p>they should really quit focusing on and nerfing insignificant stuff like this and fix crusaders, or their database issues, or Halas, or any of the tens or hundreds of other problems <strong><em>that are actually <span style="text-decoration: underline;">PROBLEMS</span></em></strong></p>

[ATTHWSM]

<p>Guys, if this upsets you, the In Testing Forum has this EXACT same debate going on at</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=478332 " target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...id=478332 </a></p><p>Go hit it up, let the DEVS and SOE know that this is wrong, and a waste of DEV time that could be spent on DOZENS of SERIOUS issues currently in game.</p><p>Dont be lazy</p>

[Frametree]

<p>Agreed.  Post over there!  Don't put it off.  We're getting to the wire here.  We need to get that dialog going w/ Sony.</p>

[Munter78]

<p>And that thread no longer exists <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But I agree, its total uncalled for.  It seems every change they get they beef up the other healers and hinder the mystic more.  I dont see why.  Nothing we have is overpowered.   Our buffs are mainly stat based on a stat capping system.  Our wards are hindered by a severly lowered crit base, and now we sit at the third nerf to our "defining" myth.  Awesome SoE.</p><p>They say our power proc is still overpowered...Why? Its nothing that a chanter cant do? Its not like we are curing the entire raid? Or getting multiple group cures.  Thats Overpowered! Especially since everything is a cure fight.</p>

[Frametree]

<p>Not sure why the link is broken, but the thread is still there, in In Testing Feedback. </p>

[Frametree]

<p>Well, sorry to say but it's going live.  It's a global bug-fix.  Let's just hope the imbalance gets noticed and promptly addressed.  I guess.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Frametree]

<p>oops, double. </p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>Frametree wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well, sorry to say but it's going live.  It's a global bug-fix.  Let's just hope the imbalance gets noticed and promptly addressed.  I guess.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>*IT IS NOT A BUG FIX*</p><p>This is working as intended for two years.  It is being changed for no apparent reason.</p>

[Frametree]

<p>That's what Timetravelling said, anyway.  Just conveying the message.</p>

[Hene]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Frametree wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well, sorry to say but it's going live.  It's a global bug-fix.  Let's just hope the imbalance gets noticed and promptly addressed.  I guess.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>*IT IS NOT A BUG FIX*</p><p>This is working as intended for two years.  It is being changed for no apparent reason.</p></blockquote><p>He (timetravelling) said it is fixing a <em>newly appeared </em>bug with the code (and it seems to be unrelated to mystics).  Tbh idk why they didn't just fix the bug the right way...but w/e I guess now there is no need to do the epic or mythical quest for mystics as the item is useless <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p><p>(though spirit tap is still useful on occasion, but I'd now trade my myth for a defilers any day...say goodbye to class-myth balance if there ever was any)</p><p>And if you haven't /petition it or /feedback it, please do so now and tomorrow or whenever it hits live.</p>

[Frametree]

<p>What he told me in a pm is that there's a bug that needed to be fixed; fixing it will bring about the change to our myth that we're so concerned about.  I told him, obviously, that it was going to be a very bad thing for us.  He says they (Xelgad in particular) are watching for balance problems.  Again, I'm just reporting.  So don't shoot me. ;P</p>

[Arcanemundi]

<p>These are the numbers I am seeing through calculations for my heal spec:</p><p><em>Mystic w/Mastered Wards, 66% Crit Bonus, 1370 Wisdom, and Wrath's Blessing Maxing Ability Mod</em></p><p>Before Change</p><p>Ancestral Ward VIII     11,625 (116% Potency With Mythical Effect - Currently capped at 100% though)</p><p>Umbral Warding VII     17,112  (100% Potency With Mythical Effect)</p><p>After Change</p><p>Ancestral Ward VIII     11,569 (99% Potency Without Mythical Effect)  (Loosing 56 in ward size)</p><p>Umbral Warding VII     16,138 (89% Potency Without Mythical Effect)  (Loosing 974 in ward size, 6% Less)</p><p>If SoE left everything alone:</p><p>Ancestral Ward VIII     12,510 (116% Potency With Mythical Effect)  (Gain 885, 7% Larger)</p><p>Umbral Warding VII     17,112 (100% Potency With Mythical Effect) Same</p><p>I know there is more going on with misc minor wards like Torpor, Oberon, and Runic Armor, but looking at the major wards (at least in my case) instead of giving me a slightly larger single target ward, they are decreasing my group ward by almost 1000 points?  [Removed for Content] - this seriously blows.  It's like downgrading my Master spell to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Adept</span>.  Unless you have 10+% more potency than I do, your going to see the same kind of negative effect if this goes live.  Other healers are seeing gains with the Potency cap being lifted, why are we being penalized?</p>

[Gisallo]

<p>Well the "we are looking for imbalances" is CRAP.  Why do I say that?  Because if you look at the update notes there is NOTHING there.  A vast minority of the players read the forums, but far more read the update notes.  Think maybe they are trying to hide something?  if you are trying to hide something why would you watch to see if it has an imbalacing effect.  Its crap crap crap.</p>

[snowli]

<p>First off, if you are getting wrath's blessing on raids, the mystic mythical effect has become nearly useless. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Secondly we do need to factor in all the little wards as you call them, they are dropping by a lot 20% on runic armor over 33% on torpor, spiritual leadership, ward on cure etc etc- torpor and spiritual leadership make up significant parts of my heal parse often.</p><p>Thirdly as you infer at least half the healers are seeing pure increase, only mystics furies and templars can be seeing a number of large downgrades.</p><p>Finally masses of the gear and adornment advances for mystics become worthless, as most things will cap so easily on ability mod.</p>

[ATTHWSM]

<p>Again, this is in the IN TESTING forum, not locked, still rageing mates.  This is horrible, we have no viable adorns at this point because we cap on abilty mod, and our Myth Click now effects what?  2 out or 5 wards?  Maybe 1 if your super geared. </p><p>Its garbage what you did, you could have made the OLD EFFECT a trigger proc, like 2.5 a minute for 20 seconds or something, and it probably could have fixed your QQ crap over fixing something that ISNT BROKE, WASNT BROKE, and was NEVER claimed to be broke by ANYONE, even rival healers. </p><p>Thanks for nerfing 3 healers with the update, while hella boosting the others without even bothering to give us a new myth clicky or proc or something.  STELLAR guys</p>

[Fahd]

<p>Well the patch has landed and GRATZ SOE you have right royaly f^^^d us over!! I feel sick in my stomach looking at the new figures. And torpor down by 1/3. OMG you re tar ds!</p><p>A poor equipped r et ard slacker defiler can now outheal a geared excellent Mystic!!! What have you done!!! Its a complete joke. Maybe if I pinch myself i'll find it's just a bad dream.</p><p>Ouch! I guess not</p><p>/quits</p>

[Hene]

<p>Awesome, the myth nerf is masked by potency cap lifting, so a lot of ppl will miss it entirely...especially since its not in the update notes...</p><p>We can still hope for enough ppl realizing what happened and /petitioning to get an undo...right?</p>

[Gisallo]

<p><cite>Hene wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Awesome, the myth nerf is masked by potency cap lifting, so a lot of ppl will miss it entirely...especially since its not in the update notes...</p><p>We can still hope for enough ppl realizing what happened and /petitioning to get an undo...right?</p></blockquote><p>That's why I think its BS when someone said the dev's claimed they would look for imbalances.  They did not put anything about it in the patch notes AND they did not change the language on either the myth buff or the mythical. </p><p>Since 85% of the mystics in the game won't notice the issue because of the raise in the potency cap, because they didn't have the gear for this change to make a difference, the only logical explaination I can come up with is that they do NOT want a lot of people noticing and this complaining because they would then either have to either actually think OR they would have to tell these players that they were going to do NOTHING.  Pretty shady if you ask me.  Its almost the nail in the coffin for me in terms of this game. </p>

[Frogsley]

<p>Unneeded, undisclosed, and plain stupid.</p><p>SOE: Ugh, just ugh.</p>

[KNINE]

<p>We should all know by now that SOE does not care at all what we think.. if that was the case then the mythicals wouldn't have been nerfed to a 10 min  recast.. now this... they only care about what they want to force feed you.. ie battlegrounds and stuff that no body wanted in the first place..and like mentioned somewhere.. devs don't read these threads.. because if they did they would take most of these outcry's into account... should I quit.. no i have a lot of money tied into them now and have lots of RL friends that I play with so I will suck it up as usual,,, but once again SOE screws up something working and doesn't fix anything else.. /sigh</p>

[Odys]

<p>As a result from the nerf my runic armor dropped by a large amount under my raid/group set up (in that set up i don't have improved runic armor), but i rose by a very small amount under my solo tree (max improved runic armor).</p><p>So we are in the following situation :</p><p>Improved runic armor (max rank) is now a regenerating ward that heal/protect as much as runic armor did with no improvement.</p><p>It's really a big Nerf.</p><p>What is wonderfull is that nothing mention is on the patch notes.</p>

[Odys]

<p>I  quite agree with some opinions sted there, i never heard anyone claiming that mystics were too powerfull; my warden don't think so even is she is not the best healer for a group 1, she deals with heroic content as well (and may be better) than my mystic.</p><p>I never  saw any comment on the work chats asking for a mystic nerf.</p><p>May be a couple of high end mystic were too powerfull, but the nerf is affecting anyone. SOE just did another of its legendary bad move, it seems that they are unable to learn anything amd first and foremost : the golden rule "don't make arbitrary change without at least discussing with the player base</p>

[Odys]

<p>I found the old value of my runic armor , it was 482 not it is around 386 and with maxed improved runic armor it is at 500. The hold for torpor. So basically i need now to spend 5 aas to get the same runic armor as before.</p>

[Zeltaria]

<p>I just wish we could get a straight answer that this was what they intended or not. =(</p>

[Gisallo]

<p><cite>Taria@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I just wish we could get a straight answer that this was what they intended or not. =(</p></blockquote><p>Yes and No.  Apparently the meant to nerf reaver but were not intelligent enough to realize other things shared the mechanic and nerfing Reaver would nerf those.  Rather than undo it and figure out another way to nerf Reaver (eg. actually think and spend time) they have simply said "we will keep an eye on things".  Thing is though this was sent in a PM to ONE player so its probably a bunch of BS just to placate that one cat.  Putting anything on the forums would be inviting flames since I really think they have NO intention of addressing the issue, they just want it all to go away.</p>

[Oakum]

<p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>These are the numbers I am seeing through calculations for my heal spec:</p><p><em>Mystic w/Mastered Wards, 66% Crit Bonus, 1370 Wisdom, and Wrath's Blessing Maxing Ability Mod</em></p><p>Before Change</p><p>Ancestral Ward VIII     11,625 (116% Potency With Mythical Effect - Currently capped at 100% though)</p><p>Umbral Warding VII     17,112  (100% Potency With Mythical Effect)</p><p>After Change</p><p>Ancestral Ward VIII     11,569 (99% Potency Without Mythical Effect)  (Loosing 56 in ward size)</p><p>Umbral Warding VII     16,138 (89% Potency Without Mythical Effect)  (Loosing 974 in ward size, 6% Less)</p><p>If SoE left everything alone:</p><p>Ancestral Ward VIII     12,510 (116% Potency With Mythical Effect)  (Gain 885, 7% Larger)</p><p>Umbral Warding VII     17,112 (100% Potency With Mythical Effect) Same</p><p>I know there is more going on with misc minor wards like Torpor, Oberon, and Runic Armor, but looking at the major wards (at least in my case) instead of giving me a slightly larger single target ward, they are decreasing my group ward by almost 1000 points?  [Removed for Content] - this seriously blows.  It's like downgrading my Master spell to <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Adept</span>.  Unless you have 10+% more potency than I do, your going to see the same kind of negative effect if this goes live.  Other healers are seeing gains with the Potency cap being lifted, why are we being penalized?</p></blockquote><p>Those look like some very, very big heals to me. Seems to be a lot bigger then my solo or group regen. Someday I will grow up and be a real healer like shaman, lol.  Going to have to read the rest of the thread to see if they changed it out of curiosity.</p>

[Oakum]

<p><cite>Gisallo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Taria@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I just wish we could get a straight answer that this was what they intended or not. =(</p></blockquote><p>Yes and No.  Apparently the meant to nerf reaver but were not intelligent enough to realize other things shared the mechanic and nerfing Reaver would nerf those.  Rather than undo it and figure out another way to nerf Reaver (eg. actually think and spend time) they have simply said "we will keep an eye on things".  Thing is though this was sent in a PM to ONE player so its probably a bunch of BS just to placate that one cat.  Putting anything on the forums would be inviting flames since I really think they have NO intention of addressing the issue, they just want it all to go away.</p></blockquote><p>That just means you all will have to keep posting numbers and other stuff to show how you are now the weakest healer there is to justify them fixing it. They seem to hate to change something once it goes live unless there is constant unending feedback about how and why its bad.</p>

[Odys]

<p><cite>Oakum wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Those look like some very, very big heals to me. Seems to be a lot bigger then my solo or group regen. Someday I will grow up and be a real healer like shaman, lol.  Going to have to read the rest of the thread to see if they changed it out of curiosity.</p></blockquote><p>Well thos number are from a raiding mystic with high potency, mine has 20-30% potency and 1000-1200 ab mod and her wards were in the 8000 (group) and 6000 (single) if not buffed. Those numbers may get higher (coercitive healing, paladin raid buf, bard buf ...).</p><p>Don't conclude from those numbers that mystic are Overpowered, my warden can solo heal probably better than my mystic, she has much higher HPS and no mana issue, her main problem is spike damage. I can quite compare since both have similar equipments.</p><p>I was really looking forward a 1K runic armor, my warden can almost spam her fast group heal and single such heal bring back any non tank from almost red to yellow in 2 seconds. A permanent running tempest + a group heal  is much stronger than a group ward to protect a group.</p><p>I can't speak about balance in raids, but facing heroic or solo content  the mystics were not overpowered.</p>

[Arcanemundi]

<p><cite>Oakum wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>...They seem to hate to change something once it goes live unless there is constant unending feedback about how and why its bad.</p></blockquote><p>Ancestral Sentry got fixed within 3 days....</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=479859">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=479859</a></p>

[Thunderthyze]

<p>Err yes, but that was a bug. The nerf to our myth is a feature "working as intended" following on from the changes introduced intended to throttle back SKs. Unfortunately it had little effect on them as they got boosted in other ways. Furies and Mystics however got the full force of the nerf with no redeeming features whatsoever. SOE will do nothing about this because healing is not "sexy". Only raw "deepz" issues warrant their attention these days. It's just a pity none of the devs will come public over their thinking on this aside from the occasional PM to community reps.</p>

[Gisallo]

<p><cite>Oakum wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That just means you all will have to keep posting numbers and other stuff to show how you are now the weakest healer there is to justify them fixing it. They seem to hate to change something once it goes live unless there is constant unending feedback about how and why its bad.</p></blockquote><p>First those are a hard core raiding mystic's numbers.  SECOND you can't be comparing a Mystic to say a warden under these circumstances.  You compare (at least I compare) Mystic to Defiler, Fury to Warden etc. when individual classes get a nerf.</p><p>Under the current circumstances a Defiler will actually see a boost to their heals due to the update while a Mystic will see a nerf.  A nerf which according to the devs was NOT forseen because their target was Reaver, not the mystic or Fury myths. </p><p>Also comparing apples to apples (raider to raider/casual to casual), yes the individual wards seem large BUT when you look at the parses the difference in heals has NOTHING to do with size but rather heal priority ward before reactive before HoT/regen.  That is healer 101.  The faster casting speed of the HoT/regen mitigate the size of the shaman wards and it becomes the priority based on the game mechanic that creates the percieved imbalance.  This I thought was all stuff that has been known since launch so I assumed you would be aware.  Obviously not.</p><p>If you want to complain that Shaman's are somehow uber win button healers as opposed to druids that would be for another thread because this thread is about individual classes being nerfed in comparison to their brother/sister class.  Thank you for trolling</p>

[ATTHWSM]

<p>SOE - Reply, Admit, Deny, Confirm, WTFEVER you wanna do, say something, say it was your bad, say its working fine, say SOMETHING.   The fact you gimped 3 healers with an update that pretty much made everyone better is stupid.  Leaving as it was effects what?  15% of mystics/furys/templars out there? This isnt like the SK craze of TSO where you royally screwed up and 99% of the game rolled an SK.  It wasnt OP, it wont be OP, and nobody except apparently YOU GUYS think its OP.  Less time on pretty house items and STATION CASH TIGERS and more time on the actual game aye?  GOGO</p>

[Alexandrea]

<p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Banditman]

<p><cite>Alexandrea wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So tired of the chain healer not only having some of the worst gear options in the game but now nerfed again?!?!</p><p>I'm going to retire my beloved Mystic whom I have played from day 1, it's too frustrating to be the worst healer in the game and having everyone request a Defiler when the call for a chain healer goes out.</p></blockquote><p>Ok, let's leave the hyperbole at home.</p><p>This is not a "worst healer in the game" class.  I was here when we were most definitely in the running for "worst healer in the game".  That time is not now.</p><p>We have some issues.  Significant issues.  Pressing issues.  These issues can easily lead to the slow deterioration of the class if left unaddressed.</p><p>However, let's not get too excited just yet.</p>

[Gisallo]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Alexandrea wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So tired of the chain healer not only having some of the worst gear options in the game but now nerfed again?!?!</p><p>I'm going to retire my beloved Mystic whom I have played from day 1, it's too frustrating to be the worst healer in the game and having everyone request a Defiler when the call for a chain healer goes out.</p></blockquote><p>Ok, let's leave the hyperbole at home.</p><p>This is not a "worst healer in the game" class.  I was here when we were most definitely in the running for "worst healer in the game".  That time is not now.</p><p>We have some issues.  Significant issues.  Pressing issues.  These issues can easily lead to the slow deterioration of the class if left unaddressed.</p><p>However, let's not get too excited just yet.</p></blockquote><p>You are right we are not the worst healing class in the game.  That being said I have seen mystics who aren't "known" getting turned down for groups in favor of a similarly "unknown" defiler since these nerfs came out.  Its all about perception and the perception among people who do not have a clue about shaman's (95% of the game imho) is that Mystics are now on the slope to sucks ville.  If you are a casual mystic who is looking for PUGs you are quickly finding yourself on the outside looking in.  Now part of this is our fault.  There has been more than a little hysteria and hyperbole not only on forums but in level chat even about this issue.  This has caused the less informed to assume that these changes have at best make us second best, at worst broken us.  The funny thing is you really aren't going to notice a hit to healing until the high end of the game where you are capped on mod for most of your stuff.  On the level this is taking place, no one is close to most of the caps so they are not a any real disadvantage.  /shrug</p>

[snowli]

<p>I've posted figures too many times to bother doing it again.</p><p>The simplest way to put it is, before GU56 when I turned on my mythical buff, all my wards saw a healthy increase, since GU56 most of my wards see absolutely zero, nil, nada, zip increase whatsoever from mythical buff.</p><p>They broke our mythical.</p>

[Gahnand]

i think u guys are exaggerating. i've hardly noticed the difference in my ability to do my job.

[TheOnlyOneLeft]

<p><cite>Gahnand@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>i think u guys are exaggerating. i've hardly noticed the difference in my ability to do my job.</blockquote><p>It's only because you had > 100% potency before the update.</p><p>The potency cap removal probably increased your wards by more than the myth nerf decreased them; but for anyone not capped on potency, the change was significant and almost surely noticeable</p>

[Banditman]

<p>The real issue here is the continued nerfs over time.</p><p>It's not this one particular change, it's the total picture.  This is how classes wind up behind the curve and undesireable.  You can't simply keep taking things away.</p>

[Frametree]

<p><cite>Behind the curve is where we are now, seems to me.  Why would you put a mystic in to solo heal a raid group when it has only one group cure?  And if you are putting two healers in the group, then why would you put a mystic over a defiler?  We're behind the curve.</cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The real issue here is the continued nerfs over time.</p><p>It's not this one particular change, it's the total picture.  This is how classes wind up behind the curve and undesireable.  You can't simply keep taking things away.</p></blockquote>

[Gahnand]

you'd put a mystic in cuz we will do more deepz and provide more utility. teach ur group how to pot cure tbh. there r no fights that cant be done gcure -> pot cure -> gcure -> pot cure This is assuming ur raid is competent otherwise u probably wouldnt put a mystic in any of ur groups cuz the class is 'behind the curve'. Which btw, nerfing classes makes perfect sense to me in the right situation. The reuse on spirit tap was a kick in the nuts, but then when ur rocking 60-70% reuse ur like, OHhhhh i see why they did that cuz otherwise u would have channeling up every 3 min for 29s or w/e it comes out to. It would be OP cuz of all the reuse they added. I just don't think we have much to cry about right now. I mean, Stampede is amazing! Torpor is now even more amazing, and HEY WHATS UP OBERON? C'mon, that was out of left field, and it feels so good. I've hit some 30k+ dps too and I don't even have to have 2 specs to go from beating the crap out of trash and easy mobs to swapping a few pieces of gear and jumping in heal stance to push out major h.peez. (THANK GOD I HATED TSO FOR NEEDED THE MIRROR EVERY DAM DAY). i would love to see a little less QQ. if the class was unplayable, then ok, but i can't find one limitation based on what is posted here.

[Frametree]

<p>I am not saying we can't heal it; I am saying why would you do that?  If you're a raid leader, why would you put a mystic in over an inq, say?  The group has to pot in that case when there's no reason to make the group do that.  The issue is not the ppl I raid with, I assure you.  The issue is at the very top end, there's just no reason to have a mystic.  Either a defiler would be better (in the case of really heal intensive stuff where 2 healers are required for the group) or a druid/cleric would be better (when it's solo).</p><p>I don't dispute that it can be done; don't get me wrong.  The problem for us is, if there's another healer (and admittedly not all guilds have the luxury of the choice), there are too many reasons to prefer that healer.</p><p>Btw, it's not my guild that's a problem, G-dog.  We do fine.  You just don't recognize my SOE name. ;P</p>

[Gahnand]

idc who u r tbh. i didn't even mean u specifically. in general, i think mystics still have a lot of value. If u r talking a dps group then ok sure, inquisitor is a great idea. But for a tank group ur going to need some wards. Defiler is going to be the best bet for middle-ish guilds but mystic would be way better if u want to maximize dps in those groups too. Outside of MT group IDK why u would run a defiler, but mystic in OT group seems pretty awesome to me except that some guilds r easily running 5 healers, so again, inq. prolly the better choice. But, is inq so much better that guilds should have inq.s on app at all times? use shamans until u can find inq replacements? seems drastic. What it really boils down to is, are you getting sat cuz of inquisitors? If you are, that sucks, and I'm not saying I can't see hte possibility, but idt this is a problem for most. It just seems like another QQ angle. "Inquisitors are clearly better, so why would any1 bring my class?"

[Frametree]

<p>No, I'm playing.  Just saying, I understand that from the point of view of the raid overall, there's just rarely a point in having a mystic, for the reasons I outlined above.  Not qq-ing, or saying we suck by any means.  Just that over the years, the whittling away at what we brough that others didn't, and the augmenting of others, has widened the gap to the point that, well, I'd just repeat myself.  I don't want to see this trent continue. </p>

[Gahnand]

<p>If you're saying that a raid should bring 4 inquisitors and 1 defiler because there is 'rarely a point in having a mystic', then u could just as easily argue that u wouldn't bring a defiler either. I mean, if ur raid is that leet and that focused on DPS u would probably go 4 inqs and a mystic. I am failing to see the gap. Most raids are going to need wards. Mystics ward, so there is one point right there. You need healers and just cuz they aren't max DPS or have a billion cures doesn't mean you shouldn't bring them.</p>

[snowli]

<p>Stampede with it's huge recast is only worthwhile if ur timing it well with rhymic overture / victorious concerto - even then you could argue a defilers 5% crit bonus that's always up could outshine it zonewide.</p><p>Str buff does nothing for the big dpsers in your group.</p><p>The 15%DA proc is already unnecessary for anyone with good autoattack who has far too much DA, and mages tend to lose dps on the time jousting into melee range.</p><p>The amount of spell friendly blue stats like spell reuse etc but no ability reuse, no dps mod, no haste, no attack speed on SF priest gear means any defilers who drop the mindset that they can't dps will findout they can do just as good, 1 of our defilers had a 15k zonewide in 10th spot, in underfoot last night.</p><p>Healingwise, when our mythicals did a big boost to all of our wards, we still healed less than defilers, now our mythicals do almost nothing for healing, we have a far lower heal potential than defilers. It's also much easier to refill the bars on defiler than mystic.</p><p>Defilers have no power issues, a groupwide control break, their group armour ward is massively more powerful and massively more useful, buff more hp, buff more dps, debuff better, ward on cure better for 20 less aa's, and can do equal or more dps.</p><p>Mystics are left with 2 unique things, bolster can't be done by defilers, and we have 2-3 debuffs that are worthwhile that stack with defiler ones, but the names could well be debuffed to cap even without those.</p><p>Xelgad appears to think that making our mythical worthless was the right move, and said so recently in interview, so there's little cause for optimism.</p><p>In a situation where 4 of the 5 shaman available to our force are already defiler, I sort of feel obligated to remain mystic, and it would be a pita to get all the defiler masters now - I wish they had just smashed our mythical at the start of the expac, before I spent all that plat getting a fullset of mystic masters.</p>

[Arcanemundi]

<p><p>Most of the Defiler's and Mystic's wards and direct heals have <span style="text-decoration: underline;">exactly</span> the same HPS if you bother to do the calculations.  If you look at a Shaman's parse, these shared spells make up 70-80% of their heals typically.  10-20% come from proc wards and heals, and then 10-20% from special sub-class heals.  The only semi-important and unique "heal" abilities that make the Shaman sub-classes different are: </p><p>*Defiler* </p><p>Maelstrom (Group HoT) </p><p>Banewarding (Proc Ward)</p><p>Soulward (Single Target Ward) </p><p>Deathward (Single Target Ward) </p><p>Nightmares (Myth Clicky - HoT) </p><p>*Mystic* </p><p>Oberon (Single Target Ward) </p><p>Torpor (Single Target Ward and HoT) </p><p>Ancestral Sentry (Semi-Single Target Damage Intercept) </p><p>Prophetic Ward (Nox Group Ward)</p><p>Spirit Tap (Myth Clicky - Burst Group Heal) </p><p>Due to the long reuse timers on most of these spells, they are not in typical heal rotations, and are situational or used when spike damage occurs or is about to occur.  Now that the stun on Oberon is gone, and both Torpor and Oberon are amped by new AAs and red adorns, the classes have been more balanced now than ever.  </p><p>The article your referred to stated that the nerf was done to our Mythicals to further balance us.  So obviously the devs thought we were too OP with the potency cap lifted and the new AA and red adorn changes to Oberon and Torpor they added.  However, I disagree with the devs on that point, and think they forgot that if we have Wrath's Blessing on us the nerf would make our Myth Heal Mod buff useless.  They should have just said oops, and made an exception for Mystics.</p></p>

[snowli]

<p>Every mystic who betrays defiler says the same stuff, they pickup a ton of healing ability, maybe it's partly the useful effects on the defiler mythical, like having several thousand healing attached to every single and every group ward, maybe it's the useful myth potency proc, maybe it's the wards built into harbinger, maybe it's how their group armour ward doesn't just dent the occasional frontal but gets regularly used by aoes, maybe it's the better stats on the defiler heal stance, maybe it's how often their myth clicky can be used, maybe it's curse of warding or whatever. Balance is a lot of things in operation, not just the tooltips.</p><p>Here's a simpler way of putting it, everyone would agree for a long time that same geared skilled mystics in general heal less than defilers, turning the mystic mythical effect that was a cornerstone of their healing balance into garbage didn't magically make the mystics heal more, it made them heal less than before.... but some of the mystics didn't see the downgrade because of the potency cap coming off at the same time - if everyone moves ahead 35% and you move ahead 5% you might not notice the missing 30% right away.</p><p>Btw after the myth nerf, 2 of the abilities you mention, oberon and torpor both lost for me 1-2 thousand - per tick.</p>

[Arcanemundi]

<p>I had a feeling you would say that Snowline.  Well, let me take one thing back.  I did some number crunching, and I don't think they should have given back our potency boost exactly as it was... At high leves of WIS we would be getting something like 15-20%+ potency which would have made the Defilers all quit the game.  So maybe we should start suggesting that the Devs just tune our myth buff down a bit to like 10-15% of your WIS gets converted to potency, instead of 30%, or something reasonable like that.</p><p>The HP Buff Argument: First of all, a properly specced Mystic buffs 617 HP to the group using only their group HP buff, and according to the spell description on EQ2PLayers, Defilers buff 987 with their group HP buff, not a big difference there, but there is a small one.  Mystics then buff 150 stamina on top of that to the group, and another 114 stamina to a single target with Ancestral Avatar.  I'm at 1232 STA self buffed, so not sure if I have diminishing returns on STA, but I get a total of 1007 HP when I cast those two Mystic HP buffs on me, seems almost identical to a Defiler's HP buff potential.  The nox mit group HP buffs are identical.  The single target HP buffs a little different, but I haven't even mentioned the 330 HP we give to the group, and the 586 HP we give to a single target, everytime we cast heals on them.  If you spam heals and wards then you are actually buffing more HP than a Defiler can.  Then add in Bolster which buffs massive amounts (A few thousand) of HP beyond that as well.  But for the sake of argument, there doesn't seem to be a huge HP buff gap as some of you want to believe.  This was all settled long ago and it seems everyone agrees this is a non-issue: <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/defilers/39103-mystic-vs-defiler-health-buffing-2.html" target="_blank">Link</a> to debate.</p><p>The Power Argument: Yes, Defiler's have better innate power proc potential, but I don't ever have power issues on any fight in SF.  Not sure what some of you are doing wrong.  The chanters/troubs in my raid always keep us very high on power, and if for some odd reason I get low on mana, I just use the tinkered Miscalibrated or Overclocked Manastones, relics, potions, shards, hearts.  Plus Spirit Tap helps even with the huge reuse nerf we got.</p><p>Bane Warding is so Great! Argument: Defiler's Bane Warding is powerful, and I would love to have that as well, but I wouldn't trade Oberon, Prophetic Ward, Spirit Tap, or Bolster for it.  Oberon can regen to 100% after taking a huge hit, and then take another while you are casting separate wards and heals, Defilers can't do that with any of their spells right?  Prophetic Ward is unique to Mystics as well, and has a huge heal potential in nox AoE fights.  The problem is in perception.  </p><p>These are all unique class specific spells, but each of them have comparable HPS value when used.  You can see this by looking at the overall parse of a fight.  All the special class specific spells of a Shaman make up a small portion of the total heals landed, the rest of the heals are not unique either Mystics or Defilers, and both the same HPS potential.</p><p>Don't take my word for it.  Just look at the heal parses posted in EQ2Flames by high parsing hardcore raiders:</p><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/defilers/62210-sf-defiler-heal-damage-parse-thread.html" target="_blank">Defiler Parses</a></p><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/mystics/63227-mystic-parse-thread.html" target="_blank">Mystic Parses</a></p><p><img src="http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z127/BCBYR/EQ2/EQ2Flames%20Files/Hene-NyquistHealParse.jpg" width="976" height="637" /></p><p><img src="http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z127/BCBYR/EQ2/EQ2Flames%20Files/Arxon-DefilerParse.jpg" width="1024" height="818" /></p><p><img src="http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z127/BCBYR/EQ2/EQ2Flames%20Files/Gahnand-10Unique.jpg" width="1023" height="645" /></p><p><img src="http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z127/BCBYR/EQ2/EQ2Flames%20Files/Defiler-SpahnlieParse.jpg" width="1023" height="739" /></p><p><img src="http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z127/BCBYR/EQ2/EQ2Flames%20Files/7-14-10ToxKill5ImmunityParse.jpg" width="734" height="966" /></p><p>Mystic Immunities tree has a lot of proc wards too, and can parse 5% or higher.  Look at the ss I took the other night and posted above.  This 5% cure ward parse would have been much higher if I didn't have a good Inquisitor in my group.</p>

[snowli]

<p>The thing about heal parses is you can only heal the damage that is actually there - which depends on peoples jousting, positions, mob debuffs, resists & crit mit etc etc. Just because 2 healers can handle the healing, doesn't prove which one has a higher healing potential - it never proves who could have healed more. Every flames forum will have a high parse from a special situation for all classes, I have plenty of 'favourite' parse moments of my own. Thing is though, the higher your ceiling, the easier the healing is, the more time you have for debuffs, crosshealing, cross cures, and of course dps.</p><p>I trust more in what people say their own experience of betraying is, or evidence I see in our raid. Right before the myth nerf, we had a new applicant defiler and an alt defiler in our raid. Both were hugely less geared, adorned and mastered than my mystic. Neither could handle MT duties, after the patch both could right away. Before the patch when I turned on my myth buff, loads of my wards improved by a lot. After patch a bunch of spells dropped a lot of healing e.g. runic armour, torpor, oberon, single target ward, group ward etc - most are now completely unaffected by mythical buff (all with fury buff) - in fact if you've got the purifying persistance proc you could be better off turning off the mystic mythical entirely.</p><p>The 'mystic mythical could have got out of hand' argument I just don't believe - I actually wonder if the dev responsible read the inaccurate mythical description and decided the smash it without actually looking at the real maths properly. The mythical seemed to add "at maximum 30% to a ward, if you had enough wisdom", it was never adding "30% of our wisdom" otherwise our runic armour would have been well over 1k not 544 for example prenerf. The prenerf mystic mythical was capped already, already part of the healer balance landscape as it had been for many years and doing a lot less than 30% and always would on most wards, but that effect was needed to keep us inline with defilers and other healers in general (let's not get started on halved crit bonus).</p><p>Now our mythical does very close to nothing. Bad, unnecessary, change.</p>

[Arcanemundi]

<p>Agree 100% that they still need to fix it since the Mythical is such as central part of the game for all players, and the Mystic mythical got half of its power ripped out of it.  Unfortunately, it seems like not too many Mystics are upset about it anymore though.  I wish they were.</p>

[Gahnand]

I just want to say i love playing mystic, and I never think about other classes. Either my class is playable, or it isn't. And if you stop looking at other classes, I think you'll find there is nothing stopping you from being a great healer with awesome utility and dps potential.

[Hene]

<p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>the rest of the heals are not unique either Mystics or Defilers, and both the same HPS potential.</blockquote><p>This idea is part of the problem.  A lot of the heals that are the "same" for mystics and defilers actually aren't.  The defiler 8% beneficial potency proc from their myth, added heals to their wards again from myth, and AA for group ward increase help give them a good advantage over mystics.  Not to mention that the defilers also have an incoming magical damage reduction attatched to their myth iirc.</p><p>As for the parses, as was said earlier, heal parses don't really prove that much when taken from such a wide array of fights, groups, and healers (I know that my heal parse you posted wasn't even in a raid).</p><p>With all that said, mystics have something that keeps them competative (actually more desireable in many situations): melee DPS buffs (stampede seems to end up doing 2-5% of my meleers' dps, while the 5% CB will do roughly 2-3%), also ancestry goes quite nicely on anyone with some procs (if you're not being a little buff hog <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> ), bolster is cool for adding a bit more dps (when its not needed for survivability).</p><p>Not to mention, there are very few situations I would benefit from any extra healing ability even when MT healing most (easier) stuff, so the extra DPS I can put out while still healing definitely offsets any shortcomings I have for survivability, imo.</p><p>PS: I am really sad that our myth sucks so bad now...I would definitely, 100%, without a doubt, trade my mystic's myth for a defiler's myth</p>

[Arcanemundi]

<p><cite>Hene wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>the rest of the heals are not unique either Mystics or Defilers, and both the same HPS potential.</blockquote><p>This idea is part of the problem.  A lot of the heals that are the "same" for mystics and defilers actually aren't.  The defiler 8% beneficial potency proc from their myth, added heals to their wards again from myth, and AA for group ward increase help give them a good advantage over mystics.  Not to mention that the defilers also have an incoming magical damage reduction attatched to their myth iirc.</p><p>As for the parses, as was said earlier, heal parses don't really prove that much when taken from such a wide array of fights, groups, and healers (I know that my heal parse you posted wasn't even in a raid).</p></blockquote><p>I remember during beta testing when they added the Vile Runes (Defiler Group Ward Enhancement,) and Torpor/Oberon AA options, in the Defiler and Mystic AA trees respectively, there was some debate over balancing the two classes in the beta forums.  When they removed the stun to all the stun heal spells that every heal class had, Oberon was said to become way to OP according to several Defiler testers in the Beta testing forums, especially with the AA enhancements they gave us.  Iirc Oberon had a potency increase option in the new SF abilities on top of the one we already had.  This was obviously given to Mystics to match the Defiler''s potency increase option that they were given in new SF abilities.  However, after the debate burned for a week or so they toned the Mystic Oberon SF AA down down to just a refresh rate option to appease the other side.  Personally I like the refresh rate option better, since the size of Oberon is big enough to take most hits as is.  But at any rate, it seemed like Vile Runes AA option you referred to was added to the Defiler SF AA abilities to balance out the Mystic's Torpor and Oberon AA amp options initially, or vise-versa, but who knows what type of logic or HPS math SoE uses, if any.  I think the Mystics slightly came out ahead on that one though.</p><p>The Defiler potency buff on their Myth is a proc first of all, so it's hit and miss, and it's 5%, not 8, <a href="http://everquest2.com/Item/359272" target="_blank">link</a>.  They also get 5% more potency on their Healing Stance than Mystics get, so there is 10% potency which is significant.  But we get to swap more gear out to get some of that potency advantage back, since we have more cast speed on our stance to help get to cap easier.  Personally, I am usually at 102% cast speed with the heal stance turned on, and the 15% cast speed buff I get with our stance allows me to swap more cast items out for potency gear.  I know some mystics don't care about that as much and can easily get up to 130% cast speed, but it's smarter to figure it all out to maximize your gear and get some more potency, don't you think?  So really we are really talking maybe a 5% potency difference?</p><p>Anyways, the reason I posted those parses and broke it all down was to illustrate that we are all splitting hairs over 5-10% of a difference in heals overall, if that.  There isn't that big of a difference between the two sub-classes heal wise.</p><p>Like Mark Twain said,</p><p>"It' ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble.  It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."</p>

[Hene]

<p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Defiler potency buff on their Myth is a proc first of all, so it's hit and miss, and it's 5%, not 8, <a href="http://everquest2.com/Item/359272" target="_blank">link</a>.  They also get 5% more potency on their Healing Stance than Mystics get, so there is 10% potency which is significant.  But we get to swap more gear out to get some of that potency advantage back, since we have more cast speed on our stance to help get to cap easier.  Personally, I am usually at 102% cast speed with the heal stance turned on, and the 15% cast speed buff I get with our stance allows me to swap more cast items out for potency gear.  I know some mystics don't care about that as much and can easily get up to 130% cast speed, but it's smarter to figure it all out to maximize your gear and get some more potency, don't you think?  So really we are really talking maybe a 5% potency difference?</p><p>Anyways, the reason I posted those parses and broke it all down was to illustrate that we are all splitting hairs over 5-10% of a difference in heals overall, if that.  There isn't that big of a difference between the two sub-classes heal wise.</p><p>Like Mark Twain said,</p><p>"It' ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble.  It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."</p></blockquote><p>Ok, well eq2i and zam both say it is 8% (and you should know how screwy the eq2 players item DB is, look at some of your items, 115 potency for christ's sake), but w/e its 3% diff; and vile runes adds the 10% potency to the defiler group ward, which is one of the spells that defilers have in common with mystics, making their "shared spells" not that similar afterall.  And add all this up, 5 or 8% (from myth) + 5% from stance + 10% from AA (on top of that, the extra <em>absolute</em> gain in casting time for the group ward as well as the 2-3k [I believe] heal on group ward cast) = 20-23% + some = definitely non-negligible differences in at least one of (arguably the most important of) the shared spells.  As for casting speed, I don't even really pay attention to casting speed on my gear as I get > 100% between "secondary" stats on my armor, jewelry, and all the group buffs I've got, so gear swapping isn't even required (for me at least) to get 100% casting speed.</p><p>Also, if you look at some discussions on "the other forums," we talked briefly about the disparity between heals-per-second from mystic and defiler ST and group wards.  Most mystics get around 1.5k HPS from their ST ward and about the same from their group ward, while loads of defilers have 1.5-2.5k from both their wards (definitely could be related to fury myth buff, but in general, it seems that even without it the defilers come out on top).</p><p>Again, to attest to the real difference, ask someone who used to be a mystic and has betrayed recently.</p>

[Arcanemundi]

<p>Hene,</p><p>Well, I guess I'm just more of a quantitative minded person who wants to see the numbers, and not as interested in the gut feelings of players who already took the dive off the betrayal cliff, but w/e.  Unfortunately, we are now getting into fuzzy math when you want to figure out the <span style="text-decoration: underline;">actual</span> worth of a random proc potency effect from a Defiler's myth that is really just a drop in the potency bucket once you get passed 100%, and percentages of percentages with one spell like a group ward.  </p><p>Overall these two aspects are not "game changers."  What I mean is, if you increase the group ward that parses lets say 20% of heals by 10% via an AA spec, you get 2% more heals overall right?  If all your heals get a temporary 8% boost for 10 seconds, but then go back to normal levels for 20 seconds, your only getting the 8% a third of the time.  Which would average out to 3% boost on average per minute if we round up, 2% if we round down.  Overall averages of heals would increase, but not by as much as you are suggesting.</p><p>It seems to me that Defilers have unique group heal potential with Maelstrom and Bane Warding (Curse of Shielding), and unique single target healing with Deathward and Soulward, and Mystic's have unique single target heal potential with Oberon, Torpor, Sentry, and some unique group heal potential with Prophetic Ward and Spirit Tap.  I'm just not seeing any of these spells as large parts of any parses Defilers have posted publicly, so its difficult for me to be convinced as much as you are.  </p><p>I considered betraying once before I thought about how every time I had to fill in for a Defiler in the MT group, it was no problem at all, so as far as gut feelings goes, it seems like I had the opposite experience other players had that betrayed.  Once I did the math, it only reinforced that decision.</p>

[Hene]

<p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hene,</p><p>Well, I guess I'm just more of a quantitative minded person who wants to see the numbers, and not as interested in the gut feelings of players who already took the dive off the betrayal cliff, but w/e.  Unfortunately, we are now getting into fuzzy math when you want to figure out the <span style="text-decoration: underline;">actual</span> worth of a random proc potency effect from a Defiler's myth that is really just a drop in the potency bucket once you get passed 100%, and percentages of percentages with one spell like a group ward.  </p></blockquote><p>My mystic's myth proc (tribal rage or w/e) is up almost all the time, I'd assume the defiler's is as well.  Even if it is not ever up, 15% potency on the most powerful spell in a healer's arsenal is quite an advantage, and I only brought up this effect beacuse you said</p><p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All the special class specific spells of a Shaman make up a small portion of the total heals landed, the rest of the heals are not unique either Mystics or Defilers, and both the same HPS potential.</p></blockquote><p>I wanted to show that the non-unique spells did <em>not</em> have the same heal potetntial.  And to somewhat burst my own bubble, HPS is not the only thing that you have to look at to compare healers; defilers also get that nifty 5% redcution in incoming magic damage (from their myth) which adds a very nice boost to survivability.</p><p>Another 'number' would be the 3ish-k heal attatched to each ST and group ward cast by the defiler.  Also, like I said, look at the average heals per second of mystic group and ST wards versus defiler ST and group wards, those should be all the numbers you need to see that the spells that shaman share do not perform the same for both (hinting that the 15%+ and heal-on-ward and other things may help defilers a good bit).</p><p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Overall these two aspects are not "game changers."  What I mean is, if you increase the group ward that parses lets say 20% of heals by 10% via an AA spec, you get 2% more heals overall right?  If all your heals get a temporary 8% boost for 10 seconds, but then go back to normal levels for 20 seconds, your only getting the 8% a third of the time.  Which would average out to 3% boost on average per minute if we round up, 2% if we round down.  Overall averages of heals would increase, but not by as much as you are suggesting.</p></blockquote><p>Again, just look at the parses.  Defilers are consitently sitting at 2-2.5k HPS from both ST and group wards.  Mystics are consistently sitting at 1-1.5k HPS from both ST and group wards.  The fury buff may help, but I don't think that practically doubles the HPS...(the maximum possible benefit on ST wards from the fury buff if you have 150% potency, 120% crit bonus, and 1000 abil mod is from 7k to 9k pre-crit which gives 29% net gain, tho the group ward's benefit may be greater, the actual gap in ST wards is so much greater than this)</p><p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>I considered betraying once before I thought about how every time I had to fill in for a Defiler in the MT group, it was no problem at all, so as far as gut feelings goes, it seems like I had the opposite experience other players had that betrayed.  Once I did the math, it only reinforced that decision.</p></blockquote> <p>Plenty of mystics MT heal most content just fine <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But defilers have a definite advantage in terms of survivability (and I'm not sure what math you're talking about).</p>

[Arcanemundi]

<p><cite>Hene wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I wanted to show that the non-unique spells did <em>not</em> have the same heal potetntial.  And to somewhat burst my own bubble, HPS is not the only thing that you have to look at to compare healers; defilers also get that nifty 5% redcution in incoming magic damage (from their myth) which adds a very nice boost to survivability.</p><p>Another 'number' would be the 3ish-k heal attatched to each ST and group ward cast by the defiler.  Also, like I said, look at the average heals per second of mystic group and ST wards versus defiler ST and group wards, those should be all the numbers you need to see that the spells that shaman share do not perform the same for both (hinting that the 15%+ and heal-on-ward and other things may help defilers a good bit).</p><p>Again, just look at the parses.  Defilers are consitently sitting at 2-2.5k HPS from both ST and group wards.  Mystics are consistently sitting at 1-1.5k HPS from both ST and group wards.  The fury buff may help, but I don't think that practically doubles the HPS...(the maximum possible benefit on ST wards from the fury buff if you have 150% potency, 120% crit bonus, and 1000 abil mod is from 7k to 9k pre-crit which gives 29% net gain, tho the group ward's benefit may be greater, the actual gap in ST wards is so much greater than this)</p> <p>But defilers have a definite advantage in terms of survivability (and I'm not sure what math you're talking about).</p></blockquote><p><p>Ok, if you want to get even deeper into the minutia we could talk about the 10% Critical Mitigation and 10% Normal Mitigation buff you get from Bolster which I am sure blows away the 5% Magical Damage buff you mentioned, especially if you are comparing a MT Defiler to a MT Mystic.  However, it seems you are comparing the average HPS of a Mystic's group or single target ward to a MT Defiler's wards, and that is an error since it doesn't take context of the situation into account.  </p><p>Depending on your group setup and your gear's potency levels, a high DPS fury casting Wrath's Blessing on you, and the other buffs you have on you such as Dirge's Gravitas and Crit Bonus buffs, and some permanent and temporary Coercer buffs, allows a MT Shaman to cast group wards in the 30,000+ range.  That means the base amount must be way up there and the Ability cap is also way up there for all your heals and wards.  But we all know that a MT Mystic is rare, so any parses posted or talked about is most likely taken from a OT group context.  Being in the MT group you get more buffs than when you are in other groups due to group make up and general attention to you from buffing classes, plus your group, and particularly your tank, is subjected to way more damage to heal through, so comparing the average HPS of a insanely buffed MT Defiler healing through giant spike damage on their MT tank, to a lesser buffed Mystic in a OT group that is just concerned about AoEs and group heals, is not a genuine comparison at all to make, so why would you compare the two HPS?</p><p>I think you are missing what I am getting at.  The more accurate way to compare the classes is to look at the base amount stats of a Mystic or Defiler heal.  It is allways the same HPS potential.  Yes, the Defiler myth increase these spells by 2% on average, your right.  AND one of the heals I am talking about has a AA option in the Defiler tree that makes it contribute 2-3% more to the total parse, but you know what I am getting at, these are small numbers we are pushing around.  The bulk of heals cast by both Shaman are the same give or take 3-4%.  The rest are specials or procs like Nightmares (which you keep bringing up,) and they make up a very small portion of the healing on most fights, just look at the parses posted, it's like 4% at best.  Especially if you have a good cleric with reactives up all the time.  The reactive heals should beat Nightmare heal procs for most heals on groups and tanks, and the Shaman wards would take care of most of the damage.  This is also why Overloaded heals sucks.</p></p>

[Hene]

<p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok, if you want to get even deeper into the minutia we could talk about the 10% Critical Mitigation and 10% Normal Mitigation buff you get from Bolster which I am sure blows away the 5% Magical Damage buff you mentioned, especially if you are comparing a MT Defiler to a MT Mystic.  However, it seems you are comparing the average HPS of a Mystic's group or single target ward to a MT Defiler's wards, and that is an error since it doesn't take context of the situation into account.  </p></blockquote><p>The 5% magical damage reduction is group wide, putting it about equal to bolster's AA increase (5% reduction group wide versus 10% increase in mit relative to current mit for a single target), but then DW also has a damage reduction on it from AAs iirc, giving yet another <em>slight </em>edge in survivability to defilers.</p><p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Depending on your group setup and your gear's potency levels, a high DPS fury casting Wrath's Blessing on you, and the other buffs you have on you such as Dirge's Gravitas and Crit Bonus buffs, and some permanent and temporary Coercer buffs, allows a MT Shaman to cast group wards in the 30,000+ range.  That means the base amount must be way up there and the Ability cap is also way up there for all your heals and wards.  But we all know that a MT Mystic is rare, so any parses posted or talked about is most likely taken from a OT group context.  Being in the MT group you get more buffs than when you are in other groups due to group make up and general attention to you from buffing classes, plus your group, and particularly your tank, is subjected to way more damage to heal through, so comparing the average HPS of a insanely buffed MT Defiler healing through giant spike damage on their MT tank, to a lesser buffed Mystic in a OT group that is just concerned about AoEs and group heals, is not a genuine comparison at all to make, so why would you compare the two HPS?</p></blockquote><p>The thing is, the heal parses that I've looked at <em>do</em> include MT mystics (including a lot of my own parses when the MT defiler was MIA), not only the OT or dps group heal parses.  Also, like I said before, the buffs help, but they will not double the HPS from an otherwise identical spell.  I think I'm gonna look deeper into the issue and see if I can get some parses outta wyzz before and after betrayal to see if I can further illustrate the differences.</p><p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>I think you are missing what I am getting at.  The more accurate way to compare the classes is to look at the base amount stats of a Mystic or Defiler heal.  It is allways the same HPS potential.  Yes, the Defiler myth increase these spells by 2% on average, your right.  AND one of the heals I am talking about has a AA option in the Defiler tree that makes it contribute 2-3% more to the total parse, but you know what I am getting at, these are small numbers we are pushing around.  The bulk of heals cast by both Shaman are the same give or take 3-4%.  The rest are specials or procs like Nightmares (which you keep bringing up,) and they make up a very small portion of the healing on most fights, just look at the parses posted, it's like 4% at best.  Especially if you have a good cleric with reactives up all the time.  The reactive heals should beat Nightmare heal procs for most heals on groups and tanks, and the Shaman wards would take care of most of the damage.  This is also why Overloaded heals sucks.</p></blockquote> <p>I completely understand what you're saying, but I believe that if you add up the 2% here, the 2% there, and the 3% over there, you start to see where I'm coming from, these little things add up to make the non-negligible difference in heal potential.</p><p>It may seem like I'm QQ'ing about mystics, but I'm not tbh, I'm 100% satisfied with my healing, I can MT heal or OT heal, or dps group heal (solo for the most part), or even flat out dps if I want to, that is the cool thing about being a mystic, while the defiler tends to be more survival oriented and cemeted in his role I can hop around all over the place; I'm completely satisfied with our role <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Arcanemundi]

<p>If they balanced our Myth I think we would have less to talk about too.  I guess what got me fired up was when I read some players, especially Mystics who should know better, say that we are nothing compared to Defilers heal-wise, or that Defilers heal for 30% more than Mystics.  I just don't think it is constructive dialog and trashes the Mystic class.  I will concede that Defilers may have a "slight edge" here or there, but not a huge one overall.  If there is some AA option or spell that I just somehow happened to miss that doubles a Defiler's HPS heal output for every ward and heal I would really like for someone to point that ability out.  The differences in AA abilities, Mythical procs, and spells we have talked about are minor, and not major differences.  Nightmares may parse 4% of the parse, but so would Oberon, or Torpor if the mystic was healing instead of the Defiler...</p>

[KNINE]

<p>your right we can heal just as well as defilers.. but changing our myth to ability mod and not saying anything was garbage.. sure it may be only a little potentcy here and there but it adds up after a while...and remember potentcy not only affects our heals/wards.. it also affects our damage.. ability mod is pretty much useless and potentcy is much better.... that is the only big thing i see wrong.. as far as us healing on par with our counterparts.. we do it well imo.</p>

[Hene]

<p><cite>KNINE wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>changing our myth to ability mod and not saying anything was garbage.. sure it may be only a little potentcy here and there but it adds up after a while...and remember potentcy not only affects our heals/wards.. it also affects our damage..</p></blockquote><p>The potency added from the mythical affected wards only, not heals, not spells, and not CAs.</p>

[snowli]

<p>I think nearly anyone you ask would agree that defilers had an edge on healing for the last x years that our mythical has had a useful heal boost on it. Changing the useful heal boost (hundreds and thousands of extra hp to wards) to a close to useless (truly useless with a fury buff) mythical affect that has zero effect opn most wards and a few hundreds just on the biggest, didn't suddenly improve mystic healing to place us just behind defilers.</p><p>If that was the only way they could do the maths, perhaps I can accept that. What I can't accept is that we healed a bit less with a useful effect, how does taking it away and giving us a garbage affect instead - where we still need ability mod for our direct heals anyway so it's doubly useless we can't even gear solely for potency - how does taking a significant healing boost away from the class that healed less to start with count as balance.</p><p>Most of all I can't accept giving us nothing in return for the things they take away, like both the latest mythical nerfs; particularly in an expansion where the itemisation gives mystics no damage edge to offset the heal edge defilers have. All the defilers who try find they can dps and buff a dps group just as good as mystics, the reasons for this are myriad, always on crit bonus versus rarely on stampede, str buff becoming useless to everyone but just the tank(s) in raid, on priest gear no priest haste item this expac, no dps mod, no attack speed, almost only spell reuse almost no ability reuse, the massive hike to cast speeds having significantly better returns on spells because of recovery time versus cast times of spells & ca's etc etc.</p><p><strong>I like my mystic, I just want them to actually give something in return when they take something away, so balance is preserved, the devs are failing at this.</strong></p>

[Arcanemundi]

<p><cite>Hene wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok, if you want to get even deeper into the minutia we could talk about the 10% Critical Mitigation and 10% Normal Mitigation buff you get from Bolster which I am sure blows away the 5% Magical Damage buff you mentioned, especially if you are comparing a MT Defiler to a MT Mystic.  However, it seems you are comparing the average HPS of a Mystic's group or single target ward to a MT Defiler's wards, and that is an error since it doesn't take context of the situation into account.  </p></blockquote><p>The 5% magical damage reduction is group wide, putting it about equal to bolster's AA increase (5% reduction group wide versus 10% increase in mit relative to current mit for a single target), but then DW also has a damage reduction on it from AAs iirc, giving yet another <em>slight </em>edge in survivability to defilers.</p></blockquote><p>I just remembered that the Mystic's also have an AA ability called Ancestry, and if cast on the Dirge can increase the Dirge's Stoneskin (Percussion of Stone) proc rate to group by 20%.  As we all know, stoneskin is far superior to a mitigation buff since the person flat out avoids the entire hit.  But like I said before, we are getting into fuzzy math when comparing all these effects to each other.</p>

[Hene]

<p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Hene wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok, if you want to get even deeper into the minutia we could talk about the 10% Critical Mitigation and 10% Normal Mitigation buff you get from Bolster which I am sure blows away the 5% Magical Damage buff you mentioned, especially if you are comparing a MT Defiler to a MT Mystic.  However, it seems you are comparing the average HPS of a Mystic's group or single target ward to a MT Defiler's wards, and that is an error since it doesn't take context of the situation into account.  </p></blockquote><p>The 5% magical damage reduction is group wide, putting it about equal to bolster's AA increase (5% reduction group wide versus 10% increase in mit relative to current mit for a single target), but then DW also has a damage reduction on it from AAs iirc, giving yet another <em>slight </em>edge in survivability to defilers.</p></blockquote><p>I just remembered that the Mystic's also have an AA ability called Ancestry, and if cast on the Dirge can increase the Dirge's Stoneskin (Percussion of Stone) proc rate to group by 20%.  As we all know, stoneskin is far superior to a mitigation buff since the person flat out avoids the entire hit.  But like I said before, we are getting into fuzzy math when comparing all these effects to each other.</p></blockquote><p>Ok, so we have:</p><p>Defiler spells VS. Mystic spells about as follows (I compare DW vs. oberon and maelstrom vs. ancestral sentry as they are closer than DW versus ancestral and oberon vs. maelstrom):</p><p>ST and group heals ~= ST and group heals</p><p>Defiler ST and group wards > Mystic ST and group wards</p><p>Bane of warding < Torpor</p><p>Death ward > (when the tank is in need of heals / is spiking) or ~= (in an average fight) Oberon</p><p>Death ward AA (5% single target damage reduction) ~= (or maybe &lt<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Bolster AA (mit and crit mit increase)</p><p>Myth proc (5% group wide damage reduction) > (slightly) Ancestry put on a dirge (3% stoneskins, over time prevents about 3% of incoming damage)</p><p>Defiler temp pet > Mystic temp pet</p><p>Shroud of armor > Runic armor</p><p>Defiler debuffs ~= (for the most part) Mystic debuffs</p><p>Maelstrom > Ancestral Sentry</p><p>Defiler health buffs > Mystic health buffs</p><p>Crystallize soul (is this a comparable spell?) < Prophetic ward</p><p>Crit Bonus (on shroud) > (for any group that is not purely melee) or = (if the group is purely melee) Stampede</p><p>It is hard to compare spirit tap (emergency ability that rocks when needed) to the consitently reliable nightmares myth ability...so I'll just ignore them for now</p><p>From a survivability standpoint, mystics primarily have Prophetic ward and Torpor over defilers' comparable abilities (maybe bolster, too); while defilers have stronger wards (faster casting, extra heals attatched to them), DW (better than oberon in situations where the tank is spiking and extra healing is needed), better temp pet, better myth proc, shroud or armor (better than runic), maelstrom, and groupwide crit bonus.  There are other arguable difference, but in general, mystics gain easy-to-use CAs and some moderate buffs over defilers, which (approximately) offsets their lower overall healing ability.</p>

[KNINE]

<p><cite>Hene wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>KNINE wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>changing our myth to ability mod and not saying anything was garbage.. sure it may be only a little potentcy here and there but it adds up after a while...and remember potentcy not only affects our heals/wards.. it also affects our damage..</p></blockquote><p>The potency added from the mythical affected wards only, not heals, not spells, and not CAs.</p><p>You are right.. wards only... 2 emergencies, ST ward, Grp Ward.Torpor, Oberon, and Prophetic ward... lots of wards..</p><p>we are shaman <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>single small heal..single big heal...grp heal..ancestral channeling.. not alot of heals.. again we are shaman.. we prevent damage <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>again the potentcy did affect what it was supposed to and that sir is why so many people are upset..no one said anythign thing about it effecting heals or combat arts.. they just said they wanted their potentcy back instead of ability mod...</p></blockquote>

[Hene]

<p><cite>KNINE wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Hene wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>KNINE wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>changing our myth to ability mod and not saying anything was garbage.. sure it may be only a little potentcy here and there but it adds up after a while...and remember potentcy not only affects our heals/wards.. it also affects our damage..</p></blockquote><p>The potency added from the mythical affected wards only, not heals, not spells, and not CAs.</p><p>You are right.. wards only... 2 emergencies, ST ward, Grp Ward.Torpor, Oberon, and Prophetic ward... lots of wards..</p><p>we are shaman <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p><p>single small heal..single big heal...grp heal..ancestral channeling.. not alot of heals.. again we are shaman.. we prevent damage <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p><p>again the potentcy did affect what it was supposed to and that sir is why so many people are upset..no one said anythign thing about it effecting heals or combat arts.. they just said they wanted their potentcy back instead of ability mod...</p></blockquote></blockquote><p>actually, <em>you </em>said it affected heals, wards, and damage; did you read your own post?</p>

[StaticLex]

<p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I will concede that Defilers may have a "slight edge" here or there, but not a huge one overall.</blockquote><p>And that's the gist of it.  Mystic can contribute a bit more DPS either through buffs or actual melee and defilers can heal slightly more.  It's that simple.  Same goes for Fury/Warden, and Inquisitor/Templar.  The unfortunate thing is you'll have Hene sitting here argueing nonsense until the end of time to try and make some obscure point. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Hene]

<p><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I will concede that Defilers may have a "slight edge" here or there, but not a huge one overall.</blockquote><p>And that's the gist of it.  Mystic can contribute a bit more DPS either through buffs or actual melee and defilers can heal slightly more.  It's that simple.  Same goes for Fury/Warden, and Inquisitor/Templar.  The unfortunate thing is you'll have Hene sitting here argueing nonsense until the end of time to try and make some obscure point. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>What? My point is defilers heal more, lol; I was trying to show Arcane that defilers do, in fact, heal more than mystics <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[KNINE]

<p>yep i just re-read it lol.. was in wrong mode of thinking.. but whatever lol.. i was wrong and stand corrected for bad post <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.. point is they took it out WITHOUT SAYING ANYTHING IN ANY NOTES, THINKING WE WOULD MISS IT, and make it into ability modifier...after they already adjusted values on ST..then adjusted timer to 10 mins.. etc.. /shrug gotten used to it and can still heal on par.. point being it was ninja'ed for no reason at all.</p>

[Arcanemundi]

<p>First of all Hene, to summarize the detailed exchange we have had in such broad strokes, and then to say at the end of your over-simplistic 'greater than' and 'lesser than' conclusions about specific sub-class spells, that Defilers just seem to heal better, and Mystics DPS better, and everyone can just go home now - nothing to see here -  reveals the problems in perception, and reason, most people have had about this topic.  There are so many subtle differences between the AA specs, special sub-class abilities, and even the posted parses, it makes it difficult to understand, and tempting, to just throw up our hands and say this class is better, or that class is better.  The ironic side to all of this though is most of the differences we have talked about are really meaningless.  </p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">"Death ward > (when the tank is in need of heals / is spiking) or ~= (in an average fight) Oberon"</span></p><p>It is silly to conclude that Deathward is better than Oberon like you did, since Oberon can take two big spike hits and Deathward might take one if your lucky.  Deathward is an awesome emergency ward, but is really radically different from Oberon.  But you just seem to think that Oberon sucks compared to Deathward so there, just deal with it. lol</p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">"Death ward AA (5% single target damage reduction) ~= (or maybe <<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> Bolster AA (mit and crit mit increase)"</span></p><p>You then go on to say the 5% single target damage reduction on Deathward = the AA ability that makes Bolster increase not only all stats by 20% but the Crit Mit and Normal Mit by 10%.  First of all crit mit is uncapped, so for most guilds progressing through the content still this would give a big edge to a tank, or under geared player.  You seem to have also forgot that Bolster can be cast on the tank for over a minute, so that buff is on the tank for much longer than Deathward's buff is, making it far more powerful than the damage reduction on Deathward.  But you just seem to think they are the same so nothing to see here. Come on.</p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">"Myth proc (5% group wide damage reduction) > (slightly) Ancestry put on a dirge (3% stoneskins, over time prevents about 3% of incoming damage)"</span></p><p>You then said that the myth 'proc' 5% group wide <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">MAGIC</span></strong> damage reduction is better than a stoneskin proc enhancement?  How in the hell did you figure that math out? or did you just conclude that...  Especially when the proc magic damage reduction only absorbs one hit every 12 seconds?  On a AoE fight with a ton of arcane AoEs you might be right, hard to say.  If the Mystic is in the main tank group on a fight that doesn't have many arcane AoEs, you are dead wrong though.  Hell, if the Mystic is in any group with a Dirge you are most likely wrong.  The proc rate for the Dirge's Percussion of Stone ability is 15% base I believe, and this rate is increased by Ancestry to 18%, so the odds of a player in your group getting immunity to all damage goes up by 3%.  This is like uncontested avoidance on a fighter.  Depending on the mob, you could avoid/heal 20,000-40,000K hits 3% more of the time with Ancestry, saving a ton of wards that a Defiler would have had to blow through, and with a 5% arcane damage reduction you could avoid what?  1000-2000 of the same hit?  But on the next hit you might avoid/heal 500 damage with Ancestry, and with a 5% arcane damage reduction you could have avoided 25 damage, so how do we compare the two abilities really?  Another way to look at this is the Mystic's have a proc ward that has a 3% chance to proc when hits are received, and could absorb between 1 and 40,000 <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">OF ALL </span></strong>damage on a player, and the Defiler's have a proc ability that absorbs 5% of arcane damage received.  Both abilities might proc, might not.  On fights with no arcane damage the Defiler ability would be completely useless, while the Mystic ability would be useful.  Once again, there is no clear cut comparison here, these are not apples being compared to apples.  But you seem to think there is a slight superiority with the Defiler arcane damage reduction anyways.  Right, whatever.</p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">"Defiler temp pet > Mystic temp pet"</span></p><p>Yes, yes, the temp heal pets are not balanced, and the Defiler temp heal pet is most likely better in most fights, but they both parse 1%, or lower, on heal parses, and both suck really bad, so why even compare the heal pets?</p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">"</span><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Shroud of armor > Runic armor"</span></p><p>You say Shroud of Armor is better than Runic Armor using broad strokes again, but it isn't as clear cut as you are making it.  Looking at a heal parse from a Rathgar fight tonight, I noticed that my Runic Armor parsed 5% of my parse, and absorbed 58,056 damage, and the Defiler's shroud of Armor parsed 3% of her heals, and absorbed 27,827 damage.  Another Mystic in my raid parsed 8% of his heals to Runic Armor, and it absorbed 47,825 damage.  If the Defiler's Shroud of Armor is so much better, why are the Mystics in my raid beating the Defiler on the parse by two fold with their Runic Armor?  I know!  The Mystic's Runic Armor absorb's physical attacks, and the Defiler's Shroud of Armor absorbs elemental, arcane, and nox attacks.  Rathgar has a ton of physical AoE attacks, so I guess it depends on the fight huh?  OR, maybe the Defiler was able to keep her group ward up more than us Mystics because her group took less damage for some reason.  It could be a difference in AA specs also I suppose, since I put AA points into Runic Armor, not sure about the other Mystic.  But the point is, you can't really compare the two and just conclude, "Oh yeah, Shoud of Armor is better."  And don't forget, we are talking about such small amounts healed, and if there is a difference it is hard to prove to say the least, and most likely meaningless to debate anyways.</p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">"Maelstrom > Ancestral Sentry"</span></p><p>Maelstrom is better than Ancestral Sentry?  But these spells are so different how can you compare them? Maelstrom is a HoT spell, and hit or miss depending on if your wards are up, and Sentry is a damage intercept spell that can take hits in the 20-30,000 range, so how do you just conclude they are comparable, and that Maelstrom is better?  This is just silly Hene.</p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">"Defiler health buffs > Mystic health buffs"</span></p><p>The health buff argument is so pointless I am not going to repeat what has been said by me, and several others, so if you want to believe that one class can buff a couple hundred more health than the other on average have fun proving it.  The buffs Mystics have attached to their heals have a HP value too, which you are ignoring, but I don't see the point in debating this anymore since everyone has health in the 25,000 range now-a-days, and a 1% increase (250 HP) is not going to make a bit of difference in fights.</p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">"Crystallize soul (is this a comparable spell?) < Prophetic ward"</span></p><p>What the hell are you smoking?  No.  It is not comparable at all.</p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">"Crit Bonus (on shroud) > (for any group that is not purely melee) or = (if the group is purely melee) Stampede"</span></p><p>Stampede can parse insane damage, especially if you have a Brigand, similiar class, in your group.  Tonight I saw 10,000+ damage procing on every hit the Brig in my group landed.  Are you serious that these are equal?  lol  In fact, when we got this ability in Beta, I think I remember quite a few Defilers blowing fuses over it, and even concluding that with Stampede alone, there would be no point to have a Defiler in any raid ever again.  I think that was a bit over the top, but I think you might want to rethink this one...</p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">"It is hard to compare spirit tap (emergency ability that rocks when needed) to the consitently reliable nightmares myth ability...so I'll just ignore them for now"</span></p><p>Depending on the fight, Spirit Tap can be key to surviving.  Nightmares is just there, and is far less focused.  These abilities are hard to compare through, but I will say this:  EVERYTIME I have activated Spirit Tap, no one has ever died in my group as long as it was active, plus we got full power, so to me, it is as good as a temporary group invulnerability and 100% power replenishment.  </p><p>The moral of this story, or debate, is that the difference between a Defiler and Mystic is hard to pin down.  I am glad to see a few Mystics stating the facts about their own experiences healing, and how their toon heals fine in any situation they find themselves in, despite the propaganda out there about how better Defilers are.  Many Mystics who know better have chimed in saying we hold our own, or words to that effect, but others choose to split hairs over the differences, and that's ok too.</p><p>I don't mind splitting hairs, since the more hairs we split, the more players are going to realize that for every Defiler ability that is considered OP, there is an equal ability on a Mystic.  We have gone back and forth quite a bit at this point in time, and for every Defiler ability that was held up as being way better than a Mystic's, I have shown a comparable ability on a Mystic.  But, if anything, we should be able to agree there is no clear cut difference between the two, and perhaps we could agree that there are a myriad of small differences that are simply too hard to pin down and compare.  I did say that Defilers have a "slight edge here or there," but it should have been understood from all my previous posts on this thread that I believe Mystics have slight edges in other areas too.  Did I really need to clarify that? -guess so...</p><p>Prophetic Ward and Ancestry are some obvious examples of unique abilities that Defilers can't touch.  Spirit Tap, Torpor, Sentry, and Oberon are some others that give the Mystic small edges here or there depending on the fight.  But, the problem I see is we can't put static HPS values on these differences to understand the true HPS difference between all these spells.  As a result, it is a fallacy to just claim that this ability, or that ability, is better because we just feel that they are comparable somehow, and one is better than the other.  In the big scheme of things, as I have stated half a dozen times by now, all these hairs that we are splitting are really less than 10% of a typical Shaman heal parse total, so why focus on these spells as defining each class, if in the end it really doesn't parse meaningfully?  </p>

[Hene]

<p>I appreciate your detailed response(s) to my post, but, like pretty much every single spell, there is a situation where it prevails/seems OP/does more than average, I was attempting to speak for the spells <em>in general  </em><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>However, I see that you have several valid points.  I would like to say a few things tho:</p><p>I was doing comparisons on spells on a 1-to-1 basis (yes, yes, I know this method isn't perfect), defilers don't have exactly the same lineup of spells that mystics, so a few of the spells (namely prophetic ward and ancestral sentry) do not line up with defiler spells what-so-ever, so I decided to compare those 2 spells with the 2 spells defilers have that don't line up at all with mystic spells (maelstrom and crystallize soul)</p><p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>"Death ward > (when the tank is in need of heals / is spiking) or ~= (in an average fight) Oberon" It is silly to conclude that Deathward is better than Oberon like you did, since Oberon can take two big spike hits and Deathward might take one if your lucky.  Deathward is an awesome emergency ward, but is really radically different from Oberon.  But you just seem to think that Oberon sucks compared to Deathward so there, just deal with it. lol</p></blockquote><p>Don't forget reuse times: 1min for DW versus 2.5min for oberon</p><p>And also, pay attention to the <strong>"or ~=</strong>" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p> <p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>You then said that the myth 'proc' 5% group wide MAGIC damage reduction is better than a stoneskin proc enhancement?...Depending on the mob, you could avoid/heal 20,000-40,000K hits 3% more of the time with Ancestry.</p></blockquote> <p>Just for clarification, it is "magical" (i.e. mitigatable non-physical i.e. nox,arcane,ele) damage, and the thing is, over a long period of time the occasionally absorbed 20-40k hit will average out to 3% of 20-40k hits.  But I was under the impression that the damage reduction was not applied as an "absorbing" effect and was not dispelled as such, so if it does indeed stop reducing incoming damage after 1 hit, then Ancestry on a dirge is far more beneficial in general.</p> <p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>Yes, yes, the temp heal pets are not balanced, and the Defiler temp heal pet is most likely better in most fights, but they both parse 1%, or lower, on heal parses, and both suck really bad, so why even compare the heal pets?</p></blockquote> <p>I literally have never seen the mystic temp pet do more than 75 HPS and appears to do 5-10 HPS most of the time, while the defiler one appears to do 100-300 most of the time; and if we are not counting 200 HPS difference, then pretty much everything except the primary ward comparison is moot <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p> <p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>You say Shroud of Armor is better than Runic Armor using broad strokes again, but it isn't as clear cut as you are making it.  Looking at a heal parse from a Rathgar fight tonight, I noticed that my Runic Armor parsed 5% of my parse, and absorbed 58,056 damage, and the Defiler's shroud of Armor parsed 3% of her heals, and absorbed 27,827 damage.  Another Mystic in my raid parsed 8% of his heals to Runic Armor, and it absorbed 47,825 damage.  If the Defiler's Shroud of Armor is so much better, why are the Mystics in my raid beating the Defiler on the parse by two fold with their Runic Armor?  I know!  The Mystic's Runic Armor absorb's physical attacks, and the Defiler's Shroud of Armor absorbs elemental, arcane, and nox attacks.  Rathgar has a ton of physical AoE attacks, so I guess it depends on the fight huh?  OR, maybe the Defiler was able to keep her group ward up more than us Mystics because her group took less damage for some reason.  It could be a difference in AA specs also I suppose, since I put AA points into Runic Armor, not sure about the other Mystic.  But the point is, you can't really compare the two and just conclude, "Oh yeah, Shoud of Armor is better."  And don't forget, we are talking about such small amounts healed, and if there is a difference it is hard to prove to say the least, and most likely meaningless to debate anyways.</p></blockquote> <p>How much incoming damage <em>in general</em> or <em>overall</em> is physical, how about magical? I think you will see my point, the shroud wards the far majority of AEs while runic wards far fewer AEs and auto atk dmg.  Aside from rothgar, there are not many mobs with primarily physical AEs are there?  As for your examples, I could find plenty showing shroud of armor doing 10+% of defiler heal parses, and runic doing much less <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p> <p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>Stampede can parse insane damage, especially if you have a Brigand, similiar class, in your group.  Tonight I saw 10,000+ damage procing on every hit the Brig in my group landed.  Are you serious that these are equal?  lol  In fact, when we got this ability in Beta, I think I remember quite a few Defilers blowing fuses over it, and even concluding that with Stampede alone, there would be no point to have a Defiler in any raid ever again.  I think that was a bit over the top, but I think you might want to rethink this one...</p></blockquote> <p>Think about the reuse versus damage gained.  Yeah, stampede can add a bunch of 10k hits for 24 seconds most effecting melee classes, once every 5 minutes (or every 2.5 mins with capped reuse).  While crit bonus adds a consistent 2-4% to everyone's heals, CAs, spells etc (anything that crits).  So stampede may add more spike damage, but the crit bonus will end up bringing more to a group that is not pure melee.  Just curious, what % of said brigand's <em>zone wide</em> parse does stampede make up?</p> <p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>But, the problem I see is we can't put <span style="font-size: medium;"><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em>static </em></span></strong></span>HPS values on these differences to understand the true HPS difference between all these spells.  As a result, it is a fallacy to just claim that this ability, or that ability, is better because we just feel that they are comparable somehow, and one is better than the other.  In the big scheme of things, as I have stated half a dozen times by now, all these hairs that we are splitting are really less than 10% of a typical Shaman heal parse total, so why focus on these spells as defining each class, if in the end it really doesn't parse meaningfully?</p></blockquote> <p>This is very true, and I guess this is the cause of all "problems" with this debate, and I concede that a lot of the comparisons I made were loose and not true 100% of the time, and that each spell will have a specific situation where it reigns superior over the other, and visa versa; I was just trying to pin down the "in general" performance of the spells.</p> <p><cite>Arcanemundi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>The moral of this story, or debate, is that the difference between a Defiler and Mystic is hard to pin down.  I am glad to see a few Mystics stating the facts about their own experiences healing, and how their toon heals fine in any situation they find themselves in, despite the propaganda out there about how better Defilers are.  Many Mystics who know better have chimed in saying we hold our own, or words to that effect, but others choose to split hairs over the differences, and that's ok too.</p></blockquote> <p>I completely agree that mystics can heal fine, I believe I have said so before in this very thread, but you are ignorant (or blind) if you do not see defilers having an advantage over mystics for survivability, this is why defilers still exist in raids.  Otherwise, (if mystics brought just as much survivability) every defiler in every raid would have been replaced by mystics who can add a bit more DPS <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p><p>p.s. again, talk to some people who have seen both sides of the shaman class and can attest to the overall differences if you need some convincing (since you don't want to look at spells in general <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</p>

[Tehom]

<p>I don't think many people would argue that defilers don't have an overall survivability edge - I think it's just difficult to quantify how large that edge is. I tend to think it's fairly small, other people think it's large. The significant points are usually things like our mythical proc, ancestral cleansing, and shroud of armor making groups more durable in AE situations. I think single-target survivability boosting is much closer given the number of abilities we trade off with one another.</p>

[Shredderr]

<p><cite>Gahnand@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>idc who u r tbh. i didn't even mean u specifically. in general, i think mystics still have a lot of value. If u r talking a dps group then ok sure, inquisitor is a great idea. But for a tank group ur going to need some wards. Defiler is going to be the best bet for middle-ish guilds but mystic would be way better if u want to maximize dps in those groups too. Outside of MT group IDK why u would run a defiler, but mystic in OT group seems pretty awesome to me except that some guilds r easily running 5 healers, so again, inq. prolly the better choice. But, is inq so much better that guilds should have inq.s on app at all times? use shamans until u can find inq replacements? seems drastic. What it really boils down to is, are you getting sat cuz of inquisitors? If you are, that sucks, and I'm not saying I can't see hte possibility, but idt this is a problem for most. It just seems like another QQ angle. "Inquisitors are clearly better, so why would any1 bring my class?"</blockquote><p>arent u just proving his point that a mystic would be 2nd choice now for any group in the raid ?</p>

[Gahnand]

<p><cite>Shredderr wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gahnand@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>idc who u r tbh. i didn't even mean u specifically. in general, i think mystics still have a lot of value. If u r talking a dps group then ok sure, inquisitor is a great idea. But for a tank group ur going to need some wards. Defiler is going to be the best bet for middle-ish guilds but mystic would be way better if u want to maximize dps in those groups too. Outside of MT group IDK why u would run a defiler, but mystic in OT group seems pretty awesome to me except that some guilds r easily running 5 healers, so again, inq. prolly the better choice. But, is inq so much better that guilds should have inq.s on app at all times? use shamans until u can find inq replacements? seems drastic. What it really boils down to is, are you getting sat cuz of inquisitors? If you are, that sucks, and I'm not saying I can't see hte possibility, but idt this is a problem for most. It just seems like another QQ angle. "Inquisitors are clearly better, so why would any1 bring my class?"</blockquote><p>arent u just proving his point that a mystic would be 2nd choice now for any group in the raid ?</p></blockquote><p>My point is that you're not going to get sat if you don't suck. I'm really just trying to deflate this QQ session.</p>