Betrayal

[Thinwizzy]

<p>Anything change with the betrayal quest? Sprockfuddle in QH will not give me a quest.</p>

[TniEradani]

<p>someone on freeport side wanted to betray too today and we checked the guy on CL docks, the militia guy in SFP, and the kerra in the bar EFP - none of them would give betrayal quest either !!??!!</p>

[Skeez1e]

<p>I betrayed from Qeynos the other day - found the quest starter in the building where you register a guild.</p>

[Domino]

<p>There are some changes coming to the betrayal process which are now on Test server.  The changes are intended to address two problems:</p><ol><li>people want to betray or change citizenship, but have absolutely no idea how or where to go (e.g. Gorowyn citizen trying to move to Neriak, anyone?);</li><li>people can pick up betrayal starter quests and get halfway through the betrayal process without even realizing what they're doing (Neriak is particularly infamous for this one)</li></ol><p>Here's an overview of the changes that are intended to address the above:</p><ul><li>Each of the 6 cities now has an "Ambassador", with the purpose tag "Change of Citizenship".  Typically this person is located near the guild registrar, unless there was already a specific place elsewhere they were located (this is the case in Kelethin, where he's on the Green Knoll).</li><li>A citizen of that city can speak to the Ambassador to get a full and clear explanation of how to either change citizenship to an aligned city (e.g. Kelethin citizen wanting to move to Qeynos) or how to betray to an opposite alignment city (e.g. Neriak citizen wanting to betray to New Halas).   This will include appropriate warnings about what to expect in terms of spells resetting, etc. for the full betrayal.</li><li>If a citizen is just changing citizenship to an aligned city, the Ambassador will give them their citizenship papers and send them to the Ambassador in their destination city, who will treat them appropriately (either stamp their papers and admit them right away, or in the case of pickier cities, send them on a short series of quests - the same quests that already existed for these cities).  Change of citizenship complete.</li><li>If a citizen wants to betray, the Ambassador may be more or less helpful depending on the appropriate behaviour for the city (don't expect the Neriak ambassador to be exactly happy, for example) but will in some appropriate manner direct you to the first step of the betrayal quest (same quest that already exists) so you can begin the process.</li><li>Those NPCs who begin the betrayal quests currently will no longer offer you the betrayal quests after GU56 unless you have first spoken to the Ambassador and know what you're getting in for.  This should prevent people from accidentally picking up those quests.</li><li>The one exception here is in Neriak where you can still save the boy being beaten up, and he'll now just tell you informationally about the Ambassador.  If you do wish to betray, after speaking to her you will now be sent to the priest who was previously the second step of the betrayal.</li></ul><p>The existing betrayal and change of citizenship quests haven't been changed, they're just directed through the Ambassadors now to address the problems above.  For cities Gorowyn and New Halas that never had a quest series, the Ambassador just handles the process directly.</p><p>Hopefully this makes everything clearer for everybody.  If you do have a chance to run through these changes on Test, any feedback would be welcome.  The only bug I'm currently aware of is if you had already completed a citizenship change to Qeynos but had then left, and then were trying to come back to Qeynos a second time, the ambassador was a bit confused.  This should be fixed up with the next Test update, I hope.</p><p>I'll outline the details below.</p>

[Domino]

<h3>Qeynos: Ambassador Duryo (Qeynos Harbor)</h3> <h4><a name="Qeynos_citizen_going_to_another"></a><a name="Qeynos_citizen_going_to_another_"></a> Qeynos citizen going to another good city</h4> <ul><li> Speak to Ambassador Duryo, who will confirm which city you wish to go to, and give you the appropriate starter quest that will take you to the ambassador in your destination city. </li></ul> <h4><a name="Qeynos_citizen_going_to_exile_ev"></a> Qeynos citizen going to exile/evil city</h4> <ul><li> Speak to Ambassador Duryo, who will explain the consequences and then point you to Sprockfuddle in Qeynos Harbor. </li><li> Complete Sprockfuddle's small quest series to get kicked out into exile: <ul><li> Trade Secrets - You must be at least level 10. </li><li> The Concordium's Delivery </li><li> Unlocking the Plans </li><li> Destroy the Qeynosian Shield Generators </li></ul> </li></ul> <h4><a name="Good_citizen_going_to_Qeynos"></a> Good citizen going to Qeynos</h4> <ul><li> Accept the starter quest from your home city's Ambassador </li><li> Speak to Ambassador Duryo in Qeynos Harbor </li><li> He will complete the starter quest and start you on his short questline that will end in full citizenship, granting you Call spell, etc. <ul><li> The Fulfillment of Dreams </li><li> Her Gates </li><li> Her People </li><li> Her Cleanliness </li></ul> </li></ul> <h4><a name="Exile_going_to_Qeynos"></a> Exile going to Qeynos</h4><ul><li> Speak to Gil <span >McMartin</span> in the Commonlands, who will give you repeatable quests until you reach amiable faction with Qeynos. </li><li> Once you are amiable, Gil will send you to talk to Vishra outside the Concordium Tower in South Qeynos. Vishra will give you a short quest series to complete your acceptance to Qeynos. <ul><li> Becoming a Citizen of Qeynos </li><li> The Fulfillment of Dreams </li><li> Quieting Discontent </li><li> Moving to Qeynos - Acceptance </li></ul></li></ul>

[Domino]

<h3>Kelethin: Ambassador Gibrien (Kelethin, near the Green Knoll)</h3> <h4><a name="Kelethin_citizen_going_to_anothe"></a> Kelethin citizen going to another good city</h4> <ul><li> Speak to Ambassador Gibrien, who will confirm which city you wish to go to, and give you the appropriate starter quest that will take you to the ambassador in your destination city. </li></ul> <h4><a name="Kelethin_citizen_going_to_exile"></a><a name="Kelethin_citizen_going_to_exile_"></a> Kelethin citizen going to exile/evil city</h4> <ul><li> Speak to Ambassador Gibrien, who will explain the consequences and then point you to Saelir Varryn in Kelethin. </li><li> Complete Saelir's small quest series to get kicked out into exile: <ul><li> Saelir's Plan: Necessary Components </li><li> Saelir's Plan: Stealing the Declarations </li><li> Saelir's Plan: The Sul Spheres </li><li> Following Through </li></ul> </li></ul> <h4><a name="Good_citizen_going_to_Kelethin"></a> Good citizen going to Kelethin</h4> <ul><li> Accept the starter quest from your home city's Ambassador </li><li> Speak to Ambassador Gibrien in Kelethin </li><li> He will complete the starter quest and if your faction is not already amiable you may need to do a faction quest or two.  Once you are amiable faction, </li><li>he will tell you to speak to Nimess Sessi in the Fae Royal Hall </li><li> Nimess Sessi will give you the quest "Considering Kelethin". (She only speaks Fae, so you may also have to learn fae before you can speak to her.) </li><li> Return to Gibrien and he will give the final "Kelethin: Citizenship" quest, which completes your citizenship. </li></ul> <h4><a name="Exile_going_to_Kelethin"></a> Exile going to Kelethin</h4> <ul><li> Speak to Ambassador Gibrien, who will give you repeatable quests until you reach "amiably" faction with Kelethin. At this point he will tell you to speak to Nimess Sessi in the Fae Royal Hall </li><li> Nimess Sessi will give you the quest "Considering Kelethin". (She only speaks Fae, so you may also have to learn fae before you can speak to her.) </li><li> Return to Gibrien and he will give the final "Kelethin: Citizenship" quest, which completes your citizenship. </li></ul>

[Domino]

<h3>New Halas: Ambassador Brynhilde (New Halas, near the registrar)</h3> <h4><a name="New_Halas_citizen_going_to_anoth"></a> New Halas citizen going to another good city</h4> <ul><li> Speak to Ambassador Brynhilde, she will confirm which city you wish to go to, and give you the appropriate starter quest that will take you to the ambassador in your destination city. </li></ul> <h4><a name="New_Halas_citizen_going_to_exile"></a> New Halas citizen going to exile/evil city</h4> <ul><li> Speak to Ambassador Brynhilde, she will explain all the consequences and then send you to talk to a disreputable boatman at the dock.  He will transport you (blindfolded) to Haven. </li></ul> <h4><a name="Good_citizen_going_to_New_Halas"></a> Good citizen going to New Halas</h4> <ul><li> Accept the starter quest from your home city's Ambassador </li><li> Speak to Ambassador Brynhilde in New Halas </li><li> She will complete the quest and confirm you a citizen of New Halas, granting you Call spell, etc. </li></ul> <h4><a name="Exile_going_to_New_Halas"></a> Exile going to New Halas</h4> <ul><li> Currently, you will need to go to either Qeynos or Kelethin, then transfer citizenship.  The explanatory NPC in Haven should explain this to you if you ask. </li></ul>

[Thinwizzy]

<p>Hey thanks!</p>

[Domino]

<h3>Freeport: Ambassador Brutus (East Freeport, The Freeport Register building)</h3> <h4><a name="Freeport_citizen_going_to_anothe"></a> Freeport citizen going to another evil city</h4> <ul><li> Speak to Ambassador Brutus, he will confirm which city you wish to go to, and give you the appropriate starter quest that will take you to the ambassador in your destination city. </li></ul> <h4><a name="Freeport_citizen_going_to_exile"></a><a name="Freeport_citizen_going_to_exile_"></a> Freeport citizen going to exile/evil city</h4> <ul><li> Speak to Ambassador Brutus, he will explain all the consequences and then tell you you're disloyal and should go and do community service with the Freeport Militia till you repent. He will send you to Corporal Henk Rimebreaker in South Freeport, who is in fact a "squire", and whose short series of quests will end in you getting kicked out of Freeport into exile. <ul><li> Listening in for Qeynos </li><li> Timing the Night Shift </li><li> Resetting the Militia </li><li> Destroy the Weapons Cache </li></ul> </li><li> NOTE that originally you could start Freeport betrayal by speaking to any of 5 NPCs: Henk, Izzay Meestere, Mehina, Juturna Postumus, and Rufus Gallus. Now only Henk will start the above exile quest series, Izzay Mehina and Juturna will now just update their specific part of it, and Rufus has been removed entirely. </li></ul> <h4><a name="Evil_citizen_going_to_Freeport"></a> Evil citizen going to Freeport</h4> <ul><li> Accept the starter quest from your home city's Ambassador </li><li> Speak to Ambassador Brutus in East Freeport. He will accept your citizenship transfer papers and then start you on a short series of citizenship completion quests, after which you will become a full citizen and get your Call spell, etc.: <ul><li> Mandatory Service - from Clerk Brutus in East Freeport </li><li> Longshadow Alley Patrol - from Sergeant Daimyo in East Freeport </li><li> East Freeport Patrol - from Sergeant Daimyo in East Freeport </li></ul> </li></ul> <h4><a name="Exile_going_to_Freeport"></a> Exile going to Freeport</h4> <ul><li> Speak to Gol M'Tun in Antonica, who will offer you repeatable quests until your faction with Freeport reaches amiable. Then you will be directed to Matthias Siegemaker in the Temple of War in North Freeport. (If you talk to Brutus instead, he should tell you to go and see Matthias). Matthias will give a final series of quests to complete your citizenship and craft your Call spell, etc.: <ul><li> Becoming a Citizen of Freeport </li><li> Learning Your Place in Freeport </li><li> Ending the Revolution </li><li> Moving to Freeport - Acceptance </li></ul> </li><li> NOTE: also modified Learning Your Place slightly so it's a bit easier to train Buddy. You now only need fewer successful training attempts to earn complete obedience. Buddy is also slightly less likely to bite now. </li></ul>

[Domino]

<h3>Neriak: Ambassador V'Nox (Neriak, Cristanos Hall)</h3> <h4><a name="Neriak_citizen_going_to_another"></a><a name="Neriak_citizen_going_to_another_"></a> Neriak citizen going to another evil city</h4> <ul><li> Speak to Ambassador V'Nox, she will advise you about the process and offer you the starter quest that will take you to the Ambassador in your destination city. </li></ul> <h4><a name="Neriak_citizen_going_to_exile_go"></a> Neriak citizen going to exile/good city</h4> <ul><li> Saving Matteus Gaines (the kid being beaten up by thugs, who initially started the betrayal sequence by sending you to Magister De'Pater) will now send you to Ambassador V'Nox so you know what your choices are and can choose to stop there. </li><li> Speak to Ambassador V'Nox, she will warn you of the consequences and then direct you to Magister De'Pater with the quest "Dissatisfied with Neriak".</li><li> Magister De'Pater gives the previously existing questline that will eventually lead you to exile (his initial dialog has also been slightly reworded appropriately to the change in the quest sequence): <ul><li> Document Retrieval </li><li> Rescue the Reverend </li><li> Escape the City </li></ul> </li></ul> <h4><a name="Evil_citizen_going_to_Neriak"></a> Evil citizen going to Neriak</h4> <ul><li> Accept the starter quest from your home city's Ambassador </li><li> Speak to Ambassador V'Nox </li><li> She will complete the starter quest and inform you that you need a sponsor. Check the message board on the wall opposite to start the small citizenship change questline, at the end of which you will be a full citizen of Neriak. <ul><li> Finding A Sponsor</li><li> Enemies to the Crown </li><li> Document Recovery </li><li> Paperwork and Fees </li></ul> </li></ul> <h4><a name="Exile_going_to_Neriak"></a> Exile going to Neriak</h4> <ul><li> Speak to Drizas N'Ryt, who will give you repeatable quests until you reach "amiably" faction with Neriak. At this point he will offer "Neriak Citizenship Registrar" and direct you to Ambassador V'Nox. </li><li> Ambassador V'Nox will update and then complete this quest, then offer "Fees and Paperwork", after which you will be a full citizen of Neriak. </li></ul>

[Domino]

<h3>Gorowyn: Ambassador Zelzekla (Gorowyn, near the registrar)</h3> <h4><a name="Gorowyn_citizen_going_to_another"></a> Gorowyn citizen going to another evil city</h4> <ul><li> Speak to Ambassador Zekzekla, she will confirm which city you wish to go to, and give you the appropriate starter quest that will take you to the ambassador in your destination city. </li></ul> <h4><a name="Gorowyn_citizen_going_to_exile_e"></a> Gorowyn citizen going to exile/good city</h4> <ul><li> Speak to Ambassador Zelzekla, she will explain all the consequences and then send you to talk to a disreputable boatman at the dock.  He will transport you (blindfolded) to Haven. </li></ul> <h4><a name="Evil_citizen_going_to_Gorowyn"></a> Evil citizen going to Gorowyn</h4> <ul><li> Accept the starter quest from your home city's Ambassador </li><li> Speak to Ambassador Zekzekla in Gorowyn </li><li> She will complete the starter quest and confirm you a citizen of Gorowyn, granting you Call spell, etc. </li></ul> <h4><a name="Exile_going_to_Gorowyn"></a> Exile going to Gorowyn</h4> <ul><li> Currently, you need to go to either Freeport or Neriak, and then switch citizenship.  Speaking to the informational NPC in Haven should explain this clearly to you.</li></ul>

[msheaf]

<p>While this is neater and more fool proof (I can't tell you how many times I have almost taken one of these quests) it does seem we lossing just one more bit of flavor to the world. Can you imagine Neriak or Freeport folks letting you betray. I think there first response would be a simple off with his head not a gentle nudge in the right direction.</p>

[Gungo]

<p>Any chance you can remove the spell reset for players who change alignments (good to evil city, Etc.)Also any chance we can allow all classes in either city (bruiser in qeynos/new halas/kelethin). I would also like to see PVP to PVE server transfers allowed.</p><p>I still dont see the need for these artificial limitations.</p>

[Domino]

<p><cite>Ekum@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>While this is neater and more fool proof (I can't tell you how many times I have almost taken one of these quests) it does seem we lossing just one more bit of flavor to the world. Can you imagine Neriak or Freeport folks letting you betray. I think there first response would be a simple off with his head not a gentle nudge in the right direction.</p></blockquote><p>I suggest you try it in Neriak before making too hasty a judgement ... she does in fact threaten to have you executed, and the Freeport guy calls you a traitor and sends you to do military service in penance (not his fault the guard you speak to turns out to be a squire).</p><p>We have certainly tried to find a balance between maintaining the flavor of the cities and not making Neriak and Freeport send you on your way with happy flowers, and yet still helping a new and clueless player understand what's happening and where to go.  Specific feedback is most welcome but I do urge you to actually try it and cite specific dialog that could be improved, before you decide that flavor is being "lost" or is inappropriate.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Jaremai]

<p>Thank you - this is a positive change.  I didn't like that you had to get a few quests into the "betrayal" before it becomes obvious you're about to do something naughty.</p><p>The Kelethin one in particular.  Being disguntled doesn't necessarily mean you want to betray the city.</p>

[skidmark]

<p>Perfect time to bring back the Freeport Underground as a viable home base, same with the Bloodsabers in Qeynos Catacombs. You rescue a kid getting beat up in Neriak, he then changes his illusion and tells you to seek out someone in the sewers of freeport.</p><p>EQ2 totally lacks (and always has) the feeling of any kind of real gray area when it comes to affiliations/actions. Everyone in freeport is absolutely evil. There should be ways to mingle in the two cities in disguise as an opposed align.</p><p>I loved being an illusionist in EQ1 and eventually being able to fool all the cities. It adds a differnt non-combat element to the game just like crafting does.</p><p>It may add some interesting wrinkles in PvP too.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><a name="New_Halas_citizen_going_to_exile"></a> New Halas citizen going to exile/evil city <ul><li> Speak to Ambassador Brynhilde, she will explain all the consequences and then kick you out into exile. You will wake up in Haven.</li></ul></blockquote><p>Unless it's been changed since New Halas hit test server, this is FAR too easy. In fact it's so easy it's possible to accidentally go exile without even trying.</p>

[Captain Apple Darkberry]

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><a name="New_Halas_citizen_going_to_exile"></a> New Halas citizen going to exile/evil city <ul><li> Speak to Ambassador Brynhilde, she will explain all the consequences and then kick you out into exile. You will wake up in Haven.</li></ul></blockquote><p>Unless it's been changed since New Halas hit test server, this is FAR too easy. In fact it's so easy it's possible to accidentally go exile without even trying.</p></blockquote><p>Do you not have to type your name in to confirm your choice?</p>

[Skeez1e]

<p><cite>Caffe@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Unless it's been changed since New Halas hit test server, this is FAR too easy. In fact it's so easy it's possible to accidentally go exile without even trying.</p></blockquote><p>Do you not have to type your name in to confirm your choice?</p></blockquote><p>Yes, you do - there is no mistaking what you are doing.  I even went /gulp before I typed my name.</p>

[Domino]

<p><cite>Skeez1e wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Caffe@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Unless it's been changed since New Halas hit test server, this is FAR too easy. In fact it's so easy it's possible to accidentally go exile without even trying.</p></blockquote><p>Do you not have to type your name in to confirm your choice?</p></blockquote><p>Yes, you do - there is no mistaking what you are doing.  I even went /gulp before I typed my name.</p></blockquote><p>I've revised the Halas and Gorowyn betrayals slightly so that now the ambassador will send you to talk to a boatman to <em>absolutely positively definitely</em> confirm that you're leaving (and yes you have to type in your name to go).  This should hit Test in the next couple of days.</p>

[zelocka01]

<p>Add me in for wanting the good evil class block removed.</p><p>Annoys me I can't be a freeport conjurer.  Its a cold war.  No one is going to ignore weapons that the other side has.</p>

[Vortexelemental]

<p>I greatly appreciate the effort to not remove content Domino.</p>

[Tyrus Dracofire]

<p>i have few old unfinished quests that already been done, and cant turn in for reward since different alignments.</p><p>they shouldnt give quests to rival city alignments, some old quests i pick up were from those starters in sunken ruins or from graveyard, there were before city guards get levels and ranks, they were non-highlighted white text. they see you and get kick out of city, now they are kill on sight mode.</p><p>my only optional suggestion, modified that "Guise of Deciever" to be able to fool the city guards and able to resolve some old quests and lot of "Heritage Quests" that already turned greyed.</p><p>there too many excessive epic guards, when we had DoF, city only had 1 epic guard but not 15-20 epics.</p><p>original dev had said "Guise of Deciever" was broken and it had not been fix since launch, when it was supposely designed for fooling the city guards. he never had chance to fix it, and then it all forgotten thru several Eq2 dev members, all current dev member still unaware of it.</p><p>Guise of Deciever is one of the oldiest and longest broken or bugged, and also the forgotten.</p>

[Clenie]

<p><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Test, any feedback would be welcome.  The only bug I'm currently aware of is if you had already completed a citizenship change to Qeynos but had then left, and then were trying to come back to Qeynos a second time, the ambassador was a bit confused.  This should be fixed up with the next Test update, I hope.</blockquote><p>Does this include originally being from Qeynos, going to Kelethin, going back to Qeynos and then trying to go to Halas in the bug fix?</p>

[Xalmat]

<p><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've revised the Halas and Gorowyn betrayals slightly so that now the ambassador will send you to talk to a boatman to <em>absolutely positively definitely</em> confirm that you're leaving (and yes you have to type in your name to go).  This should hit Test in the next couple of days.</p></blockquote><p>Much better. Thank you Domino.</p>

[Anastasie]

<p>They should also let neutral classes change cities regardless of "evil" or "good" status since you may want to change cities and not change your class. There shouldn't be the spell wipe penalty in that case since you are not changing your class - just want a change of scenery.</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Annelise@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They should also let neutral classes change cities regardless of "evil" or "good" status since you may want to change cities and not change your class. There shouldn't be the spell wipe penalty in that case since you are not changing your class - just want a change of scenery.</p></blockquote><p>/AGREE</p><p>These are ideas I would like brought up to the team to make the game less restrictive and more fun.</p><p>Any chance you can remove the spell reset for players who change alignments but not class (good to evil city, Etc.)Also any chance we can allow all classes in either city (bruiser in qeynos/new halas/kelethin) (like PVP). I would also like to see PVP to PVE server transfers allowed. (More money for soe and it can probably save a few accounts from people deciding to quit the game but maybe interested in giving PVP a try, but no desire to level a new toon) </p><p>I still dont see the need for these artificial limitations.</p><p>Then maybe one day we can see a true Guise of the deceiver type illusion item to allow people to do quests in either city thus opening up more roleplay options and opening up previously restricted content. More content = more fun for all.</p>

[Ksaun]

<p>Seems like a pain in the butt to just become a member of Qeynos now.</p><p>We didn't ask for the starter islands to be removed, why cant we just start in the appropriate suburb for our race?</p><p>I have done the citizenship quest from New Halas to Qeynos, it sucks to have to go through so many steps just to get settled in so we can start enjoying the game.</p>

[Domino]

<p><cite>Clenie@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Does this include originally being from Qeynos, going to Kelethin, going back to Qeynos and then trying to go to Halas in the bug fix?</p></blockquote><p>It should, yes.  But any feedback you can provide on copied characters who have odd and complicated backgrounds like that will be most welcome, just in case we missed an unusual combination!</p><p>As far as other betrayal related requests posted above, the changes in this game update ONLY adds the ambassadors to address the points I listed in my original post.  We did not re-examine the actual betrayal requirements or restrictions for this update, and there certainly isn't time to try and do it in the next 2 weeks before the update is expected. </p><p>While it's possible that's something we might look at in the future, any revisiting of the actual requirements and consequences of betrayal will be a much longer task that will take a significant amount of work, and should probably be discussed elsewhere so it doesn't get lost in with the specific Halas Reborn related changes.  As you can see just from the posts I have made in this thread, the betrayal quests are very complex and trying to change them would not be a short or a simple task.</p>

[Kain-UK]

<p>I'd love to be a Conjy in Freeport...</p><p>The only reason I can see for them being considered a "good" class is because Necromancer needed an opposite. >_<</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Kain-UK wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'd love to be a Conjy in Freeport...</p><p>The only reason I can see for them being considered a "good" class is because Necromancer needed an opposite. >_<</p></blockquote><p>I would love to see n underground guild hall for city betrayed classes in qeynos (maybe an expanded unseen hand guild hall?). The same for freeport.  </p>

[Hamervelder]

<p>I guess that I just really have to ask: Why?  If people read the dialogue during betrayal quests, then it's more than clear that they're betraying their city.  If people look in their quest journals, then they'll see that betrayal quests are under the Betrayal category.  The whole thing is pretty clear cut, with the possible exception that it might not be 100% clear when you first pick up the quests.  As the line goes along though, it quickly becomes clear that you're betraying.</p><p>The problem then, isn't clueless people.  The problem is people who are <em>willfully ignorant</em>.  The issue, as I'm reading it, is that some people click blindly through quests and don't bother to pay attention.  IMO, let them betray and become exile 'accidentally'.  That'll teach them to go through the game blindly.  If people aren't paying enough attention to the quest diaologue and the quest category to understand what they're doing, then that's their problem, not Sony's.</p>

[Calain80]

<p><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><h4><a name="Freeport_citizen_going_to_exile"></a><a name="Freeport_citizen_going_to_exile_"></a> Freeport citizen going to exile/evil city</h4> <ul><li> NOTE that originally you could start Freeport betrayal by speaking to any of 5 NPCs: Henk, Izzay Meestere, Mehina, Juturna Postumus, and Rufus Gallus. Now only Henk will start the above exile quest series, Izzay Mehina and Juturna will now just update their specific part of it, and Rufus has been removed entirely.</li></ul></blockquote><p>Oh. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I felt always proud that Freeport only needed one person the assist the many people wishing to leave Qeynos while Qeynos needed 5 spies the where disguised as Guards to get some few people to leave the great city of Freeport.</p><p>I can understand the reason as the guards were quite good in fooling citizens of Freeport, but still I'm a bit sad. At least I can be happy that they got completely rid if one of the spies.</p>

[Jaremai]

<p>I never quite understood why "evil" toons couldn't learn how to control an elemental pet (conj), or why "good" toons couldn't learn to raise & control a skeleton.  Extrapolate this to the other classes that have an "opposite."</p><p>Maybe Lucan and Antonia decided this in the beginning, but now we have other cities.. and you're telling me dark elves wouldn't want to control a huge earth elemental?</p><p>I had to betray my poor woodelf templar because I wanted to learn some combat skills (inquisitor) and I <strong>felt bad</strong> for doing it.  The Kelethin betrayal quest made him out to be a bratty little [Removed for Content], which he isn't.. he just wanted to be able to swing his club around and do more than 1pt of damage.</p><p>Be evil for evil's sake.. but don't require it for your chosen profession to exist.</p><p>Anyway.. Domino suggested a new thread for this specific topic so it doesn't get lost.</p>

[Thinwizzy]

<p>I think the important thing to remember is: Evil will always triumph because good is dumb.</p>

[Ksaun]

<p><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Clenie@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Does this include originally being from Qeynos, going to Kelethin, going back to Qeynos and then trying to go to Halas in the bug fix?</p></blockquote><p>It should, yes.  But any feedback you can provide on copied characters who have odd and complicated backgrounds like that will be most welcome, just in case we missed an unusual combination!</p><p>As far as other betrayal related requests posted above, the changes in this game update ONLY adds the ambassadors to address the points I listed in my original post. <strong> We did not re-examine the actual betrayal requirements or restrictions for this update, and there certainly isn't time to try and do it in the next 2 weeks before the update is expected.</strong> <span style="color: #ffff00;">So its going to be another halfassed update with only part of the stuff put in, why does this not surprise me? Do you guys ever stop to think that maybe its just possible that some of us would like to have a completed project added instead of playing betaquest all the time?</span></p><p>While it's possible that's something we might look at in the future, any revisiting of the actual requirements and consequences of betrayal will be a much longer task that will take a significant amount of work, <span style="color: #ffff00;">Let me see if I understand this right, you have time to add a whole new zone and scrap a couple of perfectly good zones, but you don't have the time to make the starting experience a bit easier for those of us who didn't want this change in the first place?</span>  and should probably be discussed elsewhere so it doesn't get lost in with the specific Halas Reborn related changes.  As you can see just from the posts I have made in this thread, the betrayal quests are very complex and trying to change them would not be a short or a simple task. <span style="color: #ffff00;">Where are we supposed to start it? Make another post about the same thing so Kiarra has to move it? This is about betrayal.</span></p></blockquote><p>The betrayal quest are not that complex that you cant take an hour or two from your day and change things that quite frankly don't make a dam bit of sense. Stop giving us half finished crap, if your going to change something then at least have the decency to go back and change the other things that your better gameplay experience is screwing up when you do make changes.</p><p>You guys really need to learn to work as a team and think before you change things.</p>

[Ranger1017]

<p><cite>Ksaun wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It should, yes.  But any feedback you can provide on copied characters who have odd and complicated backgrounds like that will be most welcome, just in case we missed an unusual combination!</p><p>As far as other betrayal related requests posted above, the changes in this game update ONLY adds the ambassadors to address the points I listed in my original post. <strong> We did not re-examine the actual betrayal requirements or restrictions for this update, and there certainly isn't time to try and do it in the next 2 weeks before the update is expected.</strong> <span style="color: #ffff00;">So its going to be another halfassed update with only part of the stuff put in, why does this not surprise me? Do you guys ever stop to think that maybe its just possible that some of us would like to have a completed project added instead of playing betaquest all the time?</span></p><p>While it's possible that's something we might look at in the future, any revisiting of the actual requirements and consequences of betrayal will be a much longer task that will take a significant amount of work, <span style="color: #ffff00;">Let me see if I understand this right, you have time to add a whole new zone and scrap a couple of perfectly good zones, but you don't have the time to make the starting experience a bit easier for those of us who didn't want this change in the first place?</span>  and should probably be discussed elsewhere so it doesn't get lost in with the specific Halas Reborn related changes.  As you can see just from the posts I have made in this thread, the betrayal quests are very complex and trying to change them would not be a short or a simple task. <span style="color: #ffff00;">Where are we supposed to start it? Make another post about the same thing so Kiarra has to move it? This is about betrayal.</span></p></blockquote><p>The betrayal quest are not that complex that you cant take an hour or two from your day and change things that quite frankly don't make a dam bit of sense. Stop giving us half finished crap, if your going to change something then at least have the decency to go back and change the other things that your better gameplay experience is screwing up when you do make changes.</p><p>You guys really need to learn to work as a team and think before you change things.</p></blockquote><p>I am sorry, no. You're just looking for something to complain about here, and being a jerk about it besides.  Half-[Removed for Content] update? It's a small update meant to adress one very specific issue. The fact that it does not include all the requests people decided to toss into this thread doesn't make it an inferior  update... it accomplishes precisely what it was designed to do. Your complaints about the starting experience don't even make sense, they seem to come out of nowhere.</p><p>The betrayal quests not being complex.. sure, they are not complex to *do* but that doesn't mean making changes to them is easy. Not to mention the fact that not everyone *wants* the changes that were suggested in this thread! If you just want to kvetch about the fact that Halas is being released at all and that this somehow means that something you wanted to happen didn't, fine, but at least be honest about it.</p>

[Skeez1e]

<p>I'd like to think of a glass half full perception when changes to the game are made and it upsets folks - instead of thinking that SoE is removing content - try thinking of it as they are adding something to complain about - because, man oh man, do people ever like to complain!  There are days it seems people like complaining at least as much as they do questing or killing stuff!</p>

[Solarax]

<p>this is great!</p><p>should help make things much clearer!</p>

[Ksaun]

<p><cite>Ranger1017 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ksaun wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It should, yes.  But any feedback you can provide on copied characters who have odd and complicated backgrounds like that will be most welcome, just in case we missed an unusual combination!</p><p>As far as other betrayal related requests posted above, the changes in this game update ONLY adds the ambassadors to address the points I listed in my original post. <strong> We did not re-examine the actual betrayal requirements or restrictions for this update, and there certainly isn't time to try and do it in the next 2 weeks before the update is expected.</strong> <span style="color: #ffff00;">So its going to be another halfassed update with only part of the stuff put in, why does this not surprise me? Do you guys ever stop to think that maybe its just possible that some of us would like to have a completed project added instead of playing betaquest all the time?</span></p><p>While it's possible that's something we might look at in the future, any revisiting of the actual requirements and consequences of betrayal will be a much longer task that will take a significant amount of work, <span style="color: #ffff00;">Let me see if I understand this right, you have time to add a whole new zone and scrap a couple of perfectly good zones, but you don't have the time to make the starting experience a bit easier for those of us who didn't want this change in the first place?</span>  and should probably be discussed elsewhere so it doesn't get lost in with the specific Halas Reborn related changes.  As you can see just from the posts I have made in this thread, the betrayal quests are very complex and trying to change them would not be a short or a simple task. <span style="color: #ffff00;">Where are we supposed to start it? Make another post about the same thing so Kiarra has to move it? This is about betrayal.</span></p></blockquote><p>The betrayal quest are not that complex that you cant take an hour or two from your day and change things that quite frankly don't make a dam bit of sense. Stop giving us half finished crap, if your going to change something then at least have the decency to go back and change the other things that your better gameplay experience is screwing up when you do make changes.</p><p>You guys really need to learn to work as a team and think before you change things.</p></blockquote><p>I am sorry, no. You're just looking for something to complain about here, and being a jerk about it besides.  Half-[Removed for Content] update? It's a small update meant to adress one very specific issue. The fact that it does not include all the requests people decided to toss into this thread doesn't make it an inferior  update... it accomplishes precisely what it was designed to do. Your complaints about the starting experience don't even make sense, they seem to come out of nowhere.</p><p>The betrayal quests not being complex.. sure, they are not complex to *do* but that doesn't mean making changes to them is easy. Not to mention the fact that not everyone *wants* the changes that were suggested in this thread! If you just want to kvetch about the fact that Halas is being released at all and that this somehow means that something you wanted to happen didn't, fine, but at least be honest about it.</p></blockquote><p>Have you even tried to start a new toon in New Halas then move to Qeynos? My guess is no you haven't, and I doubt any of the devs have either.</p><p>It doesn't matter if I am looking at the glass half full or half empty its what its half full of  that matters, and right now its half full of something golden.</p><p>The current setup is just wrong, becoming a citizen of Qeynos should not require me to waste an hour of my time just to get settled in the place I wanted to start in the first place that is no longer an option.</p><p>Copy and paste for updates ftl, and thats about as honest as I can be about it.</p>

[Senya]

<p>This has already been mentioned but I'd like to add my vote for it, too.  I'd love to be able to start in any city regardless or race/class.  PVP servers allow rolling a necro in Qeynos or a Monk in FP.  Why not PVE servers? </p>

[Powers]

<p><cite>Senya wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This has already been mentioned but I'd like to add my vote for it, too.  I'd love to be able to start in any city regardless or race/class.  PVP servers allow rolling a necro in Qeynos or a Monk in FP.  Why not PVE servers? </p></blockquote><p>They only allowed it on PvP servers because the players were complaining that certain classes were necessary to raid.  Allowing all classes in all cities was the only way to satisfy that complaint because of the inherenty city-vs-city setup of PvP play.</p><p>It may have been a necessary evil on PvP servers, but there's no need for it in PvE.  There needs to remain some concrete reason to choose "evil" over "good".</p><p>Powers  &8^]</p>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Powers wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Senya wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This has already been mentioned but I'd like to add my vote for it, too.  I'd love to be able to start in any city regardless or race/class.  PVP servers allow rolling a necro in Qeynos or a Monk in FP.  Why not PVE servers? </p></blockquote><p>They only allowed it on PvP servers because the players were complaining that certain classes were necessary to raid.  Allowing all classes in all cities was the only way to satisfy that complaint because of the inherenty city-vs-city setup of PvP play.</p><p>It may have been a necessary evil on PvP servers, but there's no need for it in PvE.  There needs to remain some concrete reason to choose "evil" over "good".</p><p>Powers  &8^]</p></blockquote><p>This is a role play game. The concrete reason is ROLEPLAY. The bottom line is the two cities should have the same rewards, benefits, and options.</p><p>and to the person obviously rehashing and crying about the start isles, this thread is about changes to betrayal and making it clearer for people that they are betraying. Not the removal of the starter isles.</p>

[zelocka01]

<p> </p><p>I'm not for a change that would allow any race in both cities on starting.  That is a bridge to far and more then that betrayal already meets the use-case for people that want to role-play that.  The forced class change and set good classes and bad classes is just out of whack with any possible reality.  There is no reason why Freeport would not want conjurors or paladins (considering the guy running the city was a paladin).  It's a cold war.  You don't let one side have an advantage other the other even if it's small.   Really the entire concept of evil and good cities is kind of childish and really takes away from the game.  No one ever thinks they are the bad guys.  Both sides are just cities of people trying to get by. Outside the fact that the good city looks nice and Freeport looks like a dump, there is very little difference in the cities or how they have acted in large events.</p>

[Domino]

<p><cite>Illiam@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I guess that I just really have to ask: Why?  If people read the dialogue during betrayal quests, then it's more than clear that they're betraying their city.  If people look in their quest journals, then they'll see that betrayal quests are under the Betrayal category.  The whole thing is pretty clear cut, with the possible exception that it might not be 100% clear when you first pick up the quests.  As the line goes along though, it quickly becomes clear that you're betraying.</p><p>The problem then, isn't clueless people.  The problem is people who are <em>willfully ignorant</em>.  The issue, as I'm reading it, is that some people click blindly through quests and don't bother to pay attention.  IMO, let them betray and become exile 'accidentally'. </p></blockquote><p>When you can get half way through a quest series without even realizing you're betraying, I'm not sure it counts as willful ignorance.  True, you might see the 'betrayal' category in your quest journal, but if you're sorting your quests by zone you won't, and besides, who checks the zone of every new quest every time they pick it up, especially when it's pretty obvious the quest is based in the city they're in now?</p><p>There is also the case of people brand new to the game who don't have the advantage of our years of experience.  They probably don't even know it's POSSIBLE to betray cities, let alone recognizing early on that a quest is taking them there, so it's good to give them an NPC who clearly explains that it's possible, how to do it, and prevents them from doing it by mistake.</p><p>So yes, it's not a huge change, but if a small change can be made that improves the play experience for everybody, then I know I'm in favour, for one!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><cite>Calberak@Valor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><h4><a name="Freeport_citizen_going_to_exile"></a><a name="Freeport_citizen_going_to_exile_"></a> Freeport citizen going to exile/evil city</h4> <ul><li> NOTE that originally you could start Freeport betrayal by speaking to any of 5 NPCs: Henk, Izzay Meestere, Mehina, Juturna Postumus, and Rufus Gallus. Now only Henk will start the above exile quest series, Izzay Mehina and Juturna will now just update their specific part of it, and Rufus has been removed entirely.</li></ul></blockquote><p>Oh. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I felt always proud that Freeport only needed one person the assist the many people wishing to leave Qeynos while Qeynos needed 5 spies the where disguised as Guards to get some few people to leave the great city of Freeport.</p><p>I can understand the reason as the guards were quite good in fooling citizens of Freeport, but still I'm a bit sad. At least I can be happy that they got completely rid if one of the spies.</p></blockquote><p>Well, note that there are still 4 squires in Freeport.  Apart from Rufus, all the others are still there and still help you at different parts of the quest.  I figure Rufus went to check out New Halas, he'd finally had enough of Freeport, especially after the citadel came crashing down almost on his head.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Hirofortis]

<p>Here is question on betrayal,</p><p>Why should you loose all your CA's or spells if you betray from a good guard to a bad guard or say a good fury to a bad fury? or a bad to good, well you get the picture?  It seems kinda silly to think that they are loosing everything just becasue they are choosing a different city.  I do understnad if yu are changing classes, but it makes no sense at all if you are staying the same class.</p>

[Barx]

<p><cite>Hirofortis@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here is question on betrayal,</p><p>Why should you loose all your CA's or spells if you betray from a good guard to a bad guard or say a good fury to a bad fury? or a bad to good, well you get the picture?  It seems kinda silly to think that they are loosing everything just becasue they are choosing a different city.  I do understnad if yu are changing classes, but it makes no sense at all if you are staying the same class.</p></blockquote><p>You absolutely sholdn't, IMHO. Or at the very least you should be given the option to buy back your masters, just like aligment-restricted classes now can. It wasn't so bad before, when everyone was penalized the same, but as it is now some classes can betray and get their masters with a minor cost (double vendor cost is next to nothing compared to what masters sell for... a full set of T9 that way might be the cost of <em>one</em> high-value one on the open market) while those classes that aren't alignment restricted are basically screwed.</p><p>I even betrayed a test copied Warden to make sure that they had not changed it so that you no longer lose your spells when staying the same class -- you still do.</p><p>This needs to be changed so that _anyone_ that betrays can rebuy the equivalent masters (even if they don't change class) or taken out. I would prefer the former obviously, but as it is now it makes it almost trivial for classes that are alignment-restricted to betray while those that aren't still bear the full cost.</p>

[Rhak]

<p>I can understand the issue when going from same class to same class (Good Fury to Evil Fury), but otherwise? How exactly do you 'rebuy' your Masters now that you've changed classes? Which spells/powers are the same ones between classes? Additionally, what's stopping you from getting the Masters on the 'easier to get' class (made up example - more Masters available on the Broker as a Paladin verses Shadowknight) and then switching over?</p><p>That's why you won't be able to repurchase your Masters when changing classes anytime soon.</p>

[Calain80]

The loose of spells ans combat arts is not just a game mechanics out of need it is also to punish betrayal. Yes it is a harsh punishment, esp. at end level, but I actually like it that way.

[Hirofortis]

<p><cite>Calberak@Valor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The loose of spells ans combat arts is not just a game mechanics out of need it is also to punish betrayal. Yes it is a harsh punishment, esp. at end level, but I actually like it that way.</blockquote><p>I really don't see it as a punishment.  It is an annoyance.  If your the same class you don't forget how to play the class. You changed cities.  If you change from a good city to a good city you loose nothing and you do not forget how to play your class. If you move grom good to evil or vice versus you and<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong> do not change class </strong></span>you do not forget how to play your class.  The punishment for betrayal is that the other side no longer likes you.  If you change to a different class, then it makes sense to loose your spells becasue you are not that class anymore.  But changing alignment does not make you forget your current clas, or at least it shouldn't.  At least that is my opinion.</p>

[Cynith]

<p><cite>Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You absolutely sholdn't, IMHO. Or at the very least you should be given the option to buy back your masters, just like aligment-restricted classes now can. It wasn't so bad before, when everyone was penalized the same, but as it is now some classes can betray and get their masters with a minor cost (double vendor cost is next to nothing compared to what masters sell for... a full set of T9 that way might be the cost of <em>one</em> high-value one on the open market) while those classes that aren't alignment restricted are basically screwed.</p><p> it almost trivial for classes that are alignment-restricted to betray while those that aren't still bear the full cost.</p></blockquote><p>When ? Where? I have never heard of such a thing . . . which classes can buy back their masters at double the vendor cost after a betrayal?</p>

[Rijacki]

<p><cite>Cynith@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You absolutely sholdn't, IMHO. Or at the very least you should be given the option to buy back your masters, just like aligment-restricted classes now can. It wasn't so bad before, when everyone was penalized the same, but as it is now some classes can betray and get their masters with a minor cost (double vendor cost is next to nothing compared to what masters sell for... a full set of T9 that way might be the cost of <em>one</em> high-value one on the open market) while those classes that aren't alignment restricted are basically screwed.</p><p> it almost trivial for classes that are alignment-restricted to betray while those that aren't still bear the full cost.</p></blockquote><p>When ? Where? I have never heard of such a thing . . . which classes can buy back their masters at double the vendor cost after a betrayal?</p></blockquote><p>Wishful thinking, it doesn't happen that way on -any- server.</p>

[Nark]

<p>Not sure if this is related to the recent changes, but I am unable to complete the quest "<span>Listening in for Qeynos".  This is the first quest in the betrayal from Freeport.  I was able to place the 5 items and am on the step where I need to t</span>alk to Izzay Meestere in the Blood Haze Inn in West Freeport.  When I hail him nothing happens.  This is my first attempt at betrayal so I may have done something wrong, but I have read the Wiki and ZAM write-ups, so I don't thin it is me.  I am a lvl 30 SK betraying to New Halas on Test-Copy.</p>

[Domino]

<p><cite>Nark@Oasis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not sure if this is related to the recent changes, but I am unable to complete the quest "<span>Listening in for Qeynos".  This is the first quest in the betrayal from Freeport.  I was able to place the 5 items and am on the step where I need to t</span>alk to Izzay Meestere in the Blood Haze Inn in West Freeport.  When I hail him nothing happens.  This is my first attempt at betrayal so I may have done something wrong, but I have read the Wiki and ZAM write-ups, so I don't thin it is me.  I am a lvl 30 SK betraying to New Halas on Test-Copy.</p></blockquote><p>Thank you, getting that fixed up ASAP!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[JAEnox]

<p><cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><h3>New Halas: Ambassador Brynhilde (New Halas, near the registrar)</h3><h4><a name="New_Halas_citizen_going_to_anoth"></a>New Halas citizen going to another good city</h4><ul><li>Speak to Ambassador Brynhilde, she will confirm which city you wish to go to, and give you the appropriate starter quest that will take you to the ambassador in your destination city. </li></ul><h4><a name="New_Halas_citizen_going_to_exile"></a>New Halas citizen going to exile/evil city</h4><ul><li>Speak to Ambassador Brynhilde, she will explain all the consequences and then send you to talk to a disreputable boatman at the dock.  He will transport you (blindfolded) to Haven. </li></ul><h4><a name="Good_citizen_going_to_New_Halas"></a><span style="color: #ff0000;">Good citizen going to New Halas</span></h4><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"> </span></p><ul><li><span style="color: #ff0000;">Accept the starter quest from your home city's Ambassador </span></li><li><span style="color: #ff0000;">Speak to Ambassador Brynhilde in New Halas </span></li><li><span style="color: #ff0000;">She will complete the quest and confirm you a citizen of New Halas, granting you Call spell, etc.</span> </li></ul><h4><a name="Exile_going_to_New_Halas"></a>Exile going to New Halas</h4><ul><li>Currently, you will need to go to either Qeynos or Kelethin, then transfer citizenship.  The explanatory NPC in Haven should explain this to you if you ask. </li></ul></blockquote><p>Why is going to New Halas instant, while going from New Halas to Qeynos is a series of timesink quests requiring upwards of 90 minutes to complete?</p>

[Namiren]

<p>Any way to update my templars odyssey spell to reflect my change in hometown from Qeynos to New Halas? I did the quest and talked to the chick in New Halas, got my call spell and even a house but my odyssey spell says I cannot use it unless I'm a citizen.</p><p>Thanks!</p>

[Domino]

<p><cite>Namiren wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Any way to update my templars odyssey spell to reflect my change in hometown from Qeynos to New Halas? I did the quest and talked to the chick in New Halas, got my call spell and even a house but my odyssey spell says I cannot use it unless I'm a citizen.</p></blockquote><p>I would suggest submitting a /petition in game or through the web site, this is something I have not encountered and we'll need to look into it further, but in the mean time hopefully the CS team can get your spell sorted out.  Thanks, and apologies for any inconvenience!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Lethe5683]

<p><span style="color: #993366;">Why, after completing betrayal, did I not get my class changed?  I betrayed as a dirge and when at the part of talking to the trainer I talked to the troubador trainer and said that i wanted to be a troubador... but nothing happened.</span></p>

[MadProphet]

<p>With a  same alignment change from city to city, is it possible for neutral class characters to choose a new subclass, or do we still need to betray and rejoin to accomplish this?</p><p>Please let me know, making the choice between guardian and cancel account gets harder every day.</p>

[GrunEQ]

<p><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif; color: #cc99ff; font-size: small;">I /bug'd and /petition'd this already, but thought I would post it here in case anyone else had the same problem. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS; color: #cc99ff; font-size: small;">I'm in the process of having my low level toon change from Kelethin to Qeynos, and on Her Gates, no NPC in the NQ tower will update the quest; the SQ tower worked just fine.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS; color: #cc99ff; font-size: small;">Any one else having a problem with this?</span></p>

[Domino]

<p><cite>MadProphet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>With a  same alignment change from city to city, is it possible for neutral class characters to choose a new subclass, or do we still need to betray and rejoin to accomplish this?</p><p>Please let me know, making the choice between guardian and cancel account gets harder every day.</p></blockquote><p>Absolutely nothing has changed about the process of changing from one city to another with the same alignment. You do not change your class, just as you never have.</p><p>For Lethe and Grun, I'm not aware of any issues that would result in those bugs, so please do /petition and /bug if you haven't already (I see Grun has at least) so that customer service can assist you and QA can follow up.  Thanks!  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Domino]

<p>I should also add the next update to Test will include a bug fix where people who were betraying from Halas to Kelethin weren't be able to get the quest update from Queen Amree.</p>

[Eveningsong]

<p><cite>MadProphet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>With a  same alignment change from city to city, is it possible for neutral class characters to choose a new subclass, or do we still need to betray and rejoin to accomplish this?</p><p>Please let me know, making the choice between guardian and cancel account gets harder every day.</p></blockquote><p>You'd have to betray if you want to change neutral class even if you stay the same alignment, returning from exile to your original alignment at the new city.  At the point you accept citizenship at your new city it will ask you to confirm which class you want and at that point you can change.  Of course, whether you change or not, if you go through  betrayal all your abilities/spells will reset to apprentice...</p>

[Hirofortis]

<p><cite>Eveningsong wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>MadProphet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>With a  same alignment change from city to city, is it possible for neutral class characters to choose a new subclass, or do we still need to betray and rejoin to accomplish this?</p><p>Please let me know, making the choice between guardian and cancel account gets harder every day.</p></blockquote><p>You'd have to betray if you want to change neutral class even if you stay the same alignment, returning from exile to your original alignment at the new city.  At the point you accept citizenship at your new city it will ask you to confirm which class you want and at that point you can change.  Of course, whether you change or not, if you go through  betrayal all your abilities/spells will reset to apprentice...</p></blockquote><p>It is always funny that you would loose all of your knowledge about your class even though you are staying the same class.  I can understand switching classes, but staying the same?  This makes no sense at all. Maybe someone will wake up and realize that it is silly and fix it some time.</p>

[MadProphet]

<p>OK, petitioned this as well...</p><p>I'm at the last step of gaining citizenship with kelethin.</p><p>When I go to the berserker trainer (I am a guardian), I step through all of the dialogue and confirmation window with my new trainer.  I click to proceed through the final step of the dialogue and... nothing happens.  I also cannot return to queen amree to regain citizenship (she shows a quest complete book over her head, but talks as though i haven't talked to my trainer).</p><p>Is there something i'm doing wrong?  This whole betrayal thing has been a frustrating mess.</p>

[Captain Apple Darkberry]

<p><cite>MadProphet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>OK, petitioned this as well...</p><p>I'm at the last step of gaining citizenship with kelethin.</p><p>When I go to the berserker trainer (I am a guardian), I step through all of the dialogue and confirmation window with my new trainer.  I click to proceed through the final step of the dialogue and... nothing happens.  I also cannot return to queen amree to regain citizenship (she shows a quest complete book over her head, but talks as though i haven't talked to my trainer).</p><p>Is there something i'm doing wrong?  This whole betrayal thing has been a frustrating mess.</p></blockquote><p>You are most likely just missing the appropriate dialogue choice.  I've been tricked by it before as well.</p>

[Malacha]

<p><cite>Cynith@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You absolutely sholdn't, IMHO. Or at the very least you should be given the option to buy back your masters, just like aligment-restricted classes now can. It wasn't so bad before, when everyone was penalized the same, but as it is now some classes can betray and get their masters with a minor cost (double vendor cost is next to nothing compared to what masters sell for... a full set of T9 that way might be the cost of <em>one</em> high-value one on the open market) while those classes that aren't alignment restricted are basically screwed.</p><p> it almost trivial for classes that are alignment-restricted to betray while those that aren't still bear the full cost.</p></blockquote><p>When ? Where? I have never heard of such a thing . . . which classes can buy back their masters at double the vendor cost after a betrayal?</p></blockquote><p>I'd like to know this as well. Care to shed some light on it Barx?</p>

[Oakum]

<p><cite>Hirofortis@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here is question on betrayal,</p><p>Why should you loose all your CA's or spells if you betray from a good guard to a bad guard or say a good fury to a bad fury? or a bad to good, well you get the picture?  It seems kinda silly to think that they are loosing everything just becasue they are choosing a different city.  I do understnad if yu are changing classes, but it makes no sense at all if you are staying the same class.</p></blockquote><p>Here is the flip side of this question. Why should every class but the neutral ones lose their masters while the neutral ones have no penalties for betraying?  Why would it be fair for some people to lose their masters and not others who happened to choose one of the neutral classes when they started the game?</p>

[Anastasie]

<p>The difference is that the non-neutral classes have to change class upon betrayal and the neutral ones don't. So, if you are neutral and want to change factions, but not change your class it seems rather illogical that if say you moved to an evil city from a good city this causes you to suddenly forgot all of your spells/knowledge. If you do choose to change class, then yes Masters spells should be lost as you are a different class, not just living in a different faction city.</p>

[Malacha]

<p><cite>Annelise@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The difference is that the non-neutral classes have to change class upon betrayal and the neutral ones don't. So, if you are neutral and want to change factions, but not change your class it seems rather illogical that if say you moved to an evil city from a good city this causes you to suddenly forgot all of your spells/knowledge. If you do choose to change class, then yes Masters spells should be lost as you are a different class, not just living in a different faction city.</p></blockquote><p>We understand the difference. It doesn't account for the FAIRNESS of 1/3 of the classes assuming no penalty for betraying (if they choose to remain the same class).</p>

[Anastasie]

<p>Then perhaps changing your class, should be separated from changing your faction/city.  Changing class should of course wipe out all spells, but a different penalty (community service) could be implemented for those wishing to change alignment. Why not just remove the faction restrictions that bind some of the classes. It really serves no purpose.</p>

[Valdaglerion]

<p><cite>Annelise@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Then perhaps changing your class, should be separated from changing your faction/city.  Changing class should of course wipe out all spells, but a different penalty (community service) could be implemented for those wishing to change alignment. Why not just remove the faction restrictions that bind some of the classes. It really serves no purpose.</p></blockquote><p>This has been said for years now and I completely agree.</p><p>We should have a way of gaining faction and thereby favor with every city and alignment through actions. Seriously, as a good high elf conjuror, if I walked into Qeynos and started killing people I think it would definitely show that I have an evil side but why would I have to become a necromancer and lose my abilities - thats the part which makes no sense. I enjoy being an elementalist, I have no desire for necromancy.</p><p>Building off the "Guise of the Deceiver" to merely toggle alignment when under the illusion makes even more sense due to the fact the item script reads that way to begin with. It should work for both good and evil toons and just toggle your alignment. This would work like the goat man illusion we get in The Hole. While you use it you dont get any of your factions hit but have the opportunity to obtain quests to build specific ones.</p><p>Would love to do the evil side questing without losing the class and abilities of my toon. Would give me another 2 years of subscription time even based on current content it would seem. Just food for thought.</p>

[ElfLord]

<p><span ><h4>Exile going to Qeynos</h4><ul><li> Speak to Gil <span>McMartin</span> in the Commonlands, who will give you repeatable quests until you reach amiable faction with Qeynos. </li></ul></span></p><p>________________________________________</p><p>After I Got to Haven, found my way to Gil. He sent me in side Freeport, where I died many times.</p><p>Dues to gaurds. I deleted the toon.</p><p>There is no clear path to sneak into Freeport in game.</p><p>I did the old betrayal when EQ2 was new, it was much clearer</p>

[Encantador]

<p><cite>ElfLord wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><h4>Exile going to Qeynos</h4><ul><li>Speak to Gil <span>McMartin</span> in the Commonlands, who will give you repeatable quests until you reach amiable faction with Qeynos. </li></ul></span></p><p>________________________________________</p><p>After I Got to Haven, found my way to Gil. He sent me in side Freeport, where I died many times.</p><p>Dues to gaurds. I deleted the toon.</p><p>There is no clear path to sneak into Freeport in game.</p><p>I did the old betrayal when EQ2 was new, it was much clearer</p><p>  </p></blockquote><p>Has this changed on Test? I have betrayed back and forth many times and have no trouble moving around Freeport as a 'goody'.</p>

[Dampari]

<p>So if i have this right I can move from Qeynos to New Halas and NOT lose my spells. Am I right?</p>

[Te'ana]

<p>Yes. I just sent two toons from Qeynos to New Halas. You need only talk to an NPC in the Qeynos Harbor guild formation building and get an introductory letter that you give to a similar NPC in New Halas. No actual betrayal occurs since both cities are good aligned.</p>

[skidmark]

<p>Some adjectives for the betrayal (good to evil or vice versa)</p><p>Lame</p><p>Unimaginative</p><p>Boring</p><p>Excruciating</p><p>Ridiculous</p><p>Silly</p><p>Failure</p><p>Lazy Development</p><p>Please try to take some time to make it less of a grind. Going to Gil McMartin and running the same insipid quest 12 times (also rejecting the quests that take too much time to get the quest you want) is so counter-immersive its not funny.</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>wait, what? The Qeynos Ambassador is now going to suggest that you betray Qeynos by sabotaging a very expensive project that the Concordium has been working on and could assist in Qeynos' defense in case of an attack on the city?</p><p>Doesn't that make the Ambassador as an accomplice for knowing exactly what will happen?</p>

[Kain-UK]

<p><cite>ElfLord wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><h4>Exile going to Qeynos</h4><ul><li> Speak to Gil <span>McMartin</span> in the Commonlands, who will give you repeatable quests until you reach amiable faction with Qeynos. </li></ul></span></p><p>________________________________________</p><p>After I Got to Haven, found my way to Gil. He sent me in side Freeport, where I died many times.</p><p>Dues to gaurds. I deleted the toon.</p><p>There is no clear path to sneak into Freeport in game.</p><p>I did the old betrayal when EQ2 was new, it was much clearer</p></blockquote><p>Don't do the quests inside Freeport then?</p><p>When you talk to him, you have the option to do quests within The Commonlands, within the Freeport racial districts, within the major area's of Freeport (where the high level guards are) or bounty quests.</p><p>I've done all the quests Gil offers with a level 20 Paladin. Guard dodging can be interesting, and is an art form in it's own right, but it's not impossible to do!</p><p>Easiest way I've found to get into the Freeport city zones is: CL Docks -> Bell to Longshadow -> Run into the clear area in the middle of the zone and turn right -> Sewer -> Pick which inner city zone you want.</p><p>Then it's just guard-dodging.</p>

[Mogrim]

<p>Can losing spell quality.... OR diety worship be looked at so that someone does not need to shred their entire home and all their master spells just to worship Bertox instead of Ro?</p>

[Te'ana]

<p><cite>Creve@Vox wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Some adjectives for the betrayal (good to evil or vice versa)</p><p>Lame</p><p>Unimaginative</p><p>Boring</p><p>Excruciating</p><p>Ridiculous</p><p>Silly</p><p>Failure</p><p>Lazy Development</p><p>Please try to take some time to make it less of a grind. Going to Gil McMartin and running the same insipid quest 12 times (also rejecting the quests that take too much time to get the quest you want) is so counter-immersive its not funny.</p></blockquote><p>The current system is relatively painless compared to the original one.</p>

[stayx]

<p>Its so stupid grinding, i dont know why you this...</p><p>More Quest based and a story line or so sounds good but the betrayal path now its lame...</p>

[Hirofortis]

<div><div><p><cite>Obscurum wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The inquisitor trainer is North qeynos is letting you betray to inquisitor without pre-req's and reguardless of class.</p><p>my level 4 ranger just betrayed to inquisitor, should take a look at it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p><div></div></blockquote></div></div><div></div><div></div><div>ok, so a long time ago in a, wait. it was right here, you guys said it would take a ton of work to allow us to betray to other classes.  ok, so now, since we are already resetting everything why can't we betray to any class we choose?? It is obvious that it can be done.  Please allow us to betray to whatever class we want.</div>

[Gungo]

<p><cite>Hirofortis@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><div><p><cite>Obscurum wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The inquisitor trainer is North qeynos is letting you betray to inquisitor without pre-req's and reguardless of class.</p><p>my level 4 ranger just betrayed to inquisitor, should take a look at it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p><div></div></blockquote></div></div><div></div><div></div><div>ok, so a long time ago in a, wait. it was right here, you guys said it would take a ton of work to allow us to betray to other classes.  ok, so now, since we are already resetting everything why can't we betray to any class we choose?? It is obvious that it can be done.  Please allow us to betray to whatever class we want.</div></blockquote><p>Um they already said they are working on it, but not to expect to betray with level. It will behave like the tradeskill betrayal. In otherwords you will revert back to a max lvl 9 toon with your new chosen profession.  </p>

[Vexander00]

<p>I'm a dark elf living in Free port. I do not wish to change my city or faction. Is there a easy way to change my class from Wizard to Warlock ?</p>

[Senya]

<p>You still have to betray.  Once you are exiled begin doing the quests for the evils.  It's easier to betray to Neriak and do the small citizenship quest to change your citizenship from Neriak to Freeport than it is to just go straight to Freeport. </p>