Class Count

[Wasuna]

<p>In game, the people choose. The class that is 'fun' and 'powerful' is the class people whill choose. Fun and Powerful can be defined in many ways but in the end, if things were balanced then the choices would be roughly balanced.</p><p>After joining a pick up group with my Troubador to run a SF instance and once again the tank being a Shadowkight I descided to check something. I did a /who all Guardian and a /who all Shadowkight. I descided to start poting the results of that here on a semi-regular basis.</p><p>Like I said, the people know what class is more powerful and they have chosen:</p><p>May 10, 2010  - Guardian - 17, Shadowknight - 98</p><p>May 11, 2010 - Guardian - 21, Shadowknight - 71</p>

[arksun]

<p>Couldn't you just do an advanced search on the eq2players page?</p><p>Guardian min: 80 max: 90</p><p>Shadowknight min: 80 max: 90</p><p>All races, all servers?</p><p>The eq2players website would probably have to at least work functionally though for this to happen, no clue if it does or not.</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Couldn't you just do an advanced search on the eq2players page?</p><p>Guardian min: 80 max: 90</p><p>Shadowknight min: 80 max: 90</p><p>All races, all servers?</p><p>The eq2players website would probably have to at least work functionally though for this to happen, no clue if it does or not.</p></blockquote><p>If there was a way to account "active" then perhaps.</p><p>I think doing a /who all (maybe only at players inside instances) over the course of a a month or so would probably yield a pretty accurate result as to who is actually playing the classes actively.</p><p>Ive sorta been doing that off and on since mid-way thru TSO just out of curiosity.</p><p>Dont have actuals but its been at least a 3-1 ratio of SK -vs- Guards on and actually inside instances, etc during most days at peek time.</p><p>Wouldn't really prove anything ....we all know that SK is a more popular classd.   Same thing could be done with Summoners -vs- Wizards and i bet there are more Summoners being played.....yet go into any raid or groups and you rarely see one.</p>

[Rocc]

<p>Good idea I will do the same on the Unrest server.</p>

[Aull]

<p>I am able to use my friends window to search for how many guards, zerks, paladins, sk's, monks, and bruisers across all zones. sk's average about 40, paladins high 20's, zerkers high 20's, guards in the mid teens, monks low 20's, and bruisers low teens and below 10. I usually do this about 7:30 pm cst. The fluctuate of course but no other fighter class has topped the sk in the past 6 months and bruiser are usually the lowest.</p>

[Landiin]

Didn't someone do a chart on this already from eq2players. Something like how many 80's there was a SF launch and how many that was still 80 after a month. Or something like that,I can't find the post and not really gonna dig for it. But as expected crusaders dominated the fighter branch with SK being king of the hill for quite some time.

[Bruener]

<p>Aren't Necros one of the most popular classes played ever?  And weren't Necros on another thread dominating the most fun class to play?</p><p>It must mean something.....</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>SK's being the most played fighter just points out the fact that they are fun to play and that they are good at both group and solo, it really doesn't have much to do with the whole Sk is OP discussion as the majority of players don't get to play their SK's at the top of the tier.</p>

[Landiin]

I bet you there are more SK played at top end tiers then they are guards.

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I bet you there are more SK played at top end tiers then they are guards.</blockquote><p>Maybe, but that is a whole different bag.</p>

[Nakash]

<p>In what kind of argumentation you are trying to lead it this time ...?There are to many so nerf them and dump them down ?</p><p>Save the brawlers, save the guards, save the whales ?</p><p>Who saved SKs in T6,T7 and T8 ?I got a tip for you. Save yourself by being good at what you do..</p><p>Edit: typo .. after i am sure wales are fine <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[steelbadger]

<p><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I got a tip for you. Save yourself by being good at what you do..</p></blockquote><p>And then make life easy for your raid or group by making a Crusader and playing that instead.  Anyone who can be a good tank as a Guard will be a God as a crusader.  Just saying.</p><p>What's with:</p><p><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Who saved SKs in T6,T7 and T8 ?</p></blockquote><p>Sour grapes much?</p><p>Your main reason for leaving Crusaders as they are is as a kind of recompense for sucking in the past?  That doesn't even make sense.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>Wizards have always been the most popular class until SF.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In what kind of argumentation you are trying to lead it this time ...?There are to many so nerf them and dump them down ?</p><p>Save the brawlers, save the guards, save the wales ?</p><p>Who saved SKs in T6,T7 and T8 ?I got a tip for you. Save yourself by being good at what you do..</p></blockquote><p>So many people feel that their past pain means they have the right to cause pain to others. That sure is a childish point of view.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Is the SK playstyle so incompatible with troub you have to whine this much, or did some particular SK kick sand in your vag?</p></blockquote><p>Actually Troubador buff SK's very nicely. Think Warlock in plate and you know what a SK is. Based on the group setup I even sometimes put UT on the SK.</p><p>My main is a Guardian. On my troubador I usually only do pick-up groups and I haven't see a tank other than SK in weeks! I did run a zone with a Bezerker who tanked very well once you overlooked the running around willy nilly agroing dozens of mobs and killing us over and over. So, I don't really count that one since somebody's 10 year old was playing their parents account or something.</p>

[VikingGamer]

<p><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>... save the wales ?</p></blockquote><p><img src="http://bgavideo.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/royal-family.jpg" width="413" height="310" /></p><p>They look like they are doing fine.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Is the SK playstyle so incompatible with troub you have to whine this much, or did some particular SK kick sand in your vag?</p></blockquote><p>Actually Troubador buff SK's very nicely. Think Warlock in plate and you know what a SK is. Based on the group setup I even sometimes put UT on the SK.</p><p>My main is a Guardian. On my troubador I usually only do pick-up groups and I haven't see a tank other than SK in weeks! I did run a zone with a Bezerker who tanked very well once you overlooked the running around willy nilly agroing dozens of mobs and killing us over and over. So, I don't really count that one since somebody's 10 year old was playing their parents account or something.</p></blockquote><p>Nice game-plan there originally.  Play it out like you are whining as a troub that for some reason only sees SKs when it really is all about your Guardian as a main.</p><p>Every tank clears all heroic content easily in SF.  Anybody with half a brain is going to take what ever tank is available first to run that 20 min heroic zone because of this.  PuGs will use Warriors, Crusaders, and Brawlers to tank any heroic instance and as usual it is a first come first serve.</p><p>No tank has trouble with agro this xpac except against other fighters.</p><p>Really stop making it sound like there is some huge imbalance when there isn't.</p><p>Yes, more people play SKs than Guards.  Can you blame them?  Just go look at the stupid character selection screen and SKs have always sounded way more fun to play.  There is a reason that the class throughout RPG history is one of the most popular classes.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><p>Nice game-plan there originally.  Play it out like you are whining as a troub that for some reason only sees SKs when it really is all about your Guardian as a main.</p><p>Every tank clears all heroic content easily in SF.  Anybody with half a brain is going to take what ever tank is available first to run that 20 min heroic zone because of this.  PuGs will use Warriors, Crusaders, and Brawlers to tank any heroic instance and as usual it is a first come first serve.</p><p>No tank has trouble with agro this xpac except against other fighters.</p><p>Really stop making it sound like there is some huge imbalance when there isn't.</p><p>Yes, more people play SKs than Guards.  Can you blame them?  Just go look at the stupid character selection screen and SKs have always sounded way more fun to play.  There is a reason that the class throughout RPG history is one of the most popular classes.</p></blockquote><p>Your wrong again. I'd think by now you'd get things straight.</p><p>Of course this is about my Guardian. If it was about my Troubador this would be in the scout forum. The fact is I started to actually notice the imbalance in a more personal sense with my Troubador. Which is basically what I posted at the top of this.</p><p>The issue is that SK's are well rounded and fun. Therefore there are many more of them than other fighter classes. Your words not mine. Get it straight.</p><p>Just last nigth I ran an instance with a highly geared wizard. I was in full offensive and swapped my shield back and forth. I had a dirge, swashbuckler and coercer. I lost agro to the wizard every single fight and he was group moderated, single target moderated and linked by the coercer. I'm sure he was way over cap for agro reduction. I used every single snap agro I had when it came up and he still had agro every single fight. I had my avoidance on him so he wasn't getting hurt but it was still a huge pain. I had 100+ on Critical, DA, DPS & Haste and I have ~20% critical bonus and potency. I have 20K HP, 70%+ mitigation and avoidance while SOLO without fabled items. I have almost all masters and I try and maximize my DPS as much as possible while still being an effective tank. Your wrong. SK's don't lose agro. Guardians do. It's better but not even close to being fixed.</p><p>When there is a 3:1-5:1 difference in count then there is a huge imbalance. No other way to say it.</p><p>People who are new to the game might make a SK off the description on the charachter creation screen. This flood of SK's are alts and such. Anybody that is level 90 and in gear even close to eaual to mine are way past the creation screen crap and play SK's becasue it's well rounded and fun. The same reason there are fewer Guardians...</p>

[Nakash]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In what kind of argumentation you are trying to lead it this time ...?There are to many so nerf them and dump them down ?</p><p>Save the brawlers, save the guards, save the wales ?</p><p>Who saved SKs in T6,T7 and T8 ?I got a tip for you. Save yourself by being good at what you do..</p></blockquote><p>So many people feel that their past pain means they have the right to cause pain to others. That sure is a childish point of view.</p></blockquote><p>I had no pain. nobody saved me. i tanked all that tiers and worked against the flaws my class had.But some people here spent more time whining on the forums instead of getting along with playing their class,</p><p>and that is just weak, sry.</p>

[Nakash]

<p><cite>VikingGamer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Azzaroth@Valor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>... save the wales ?</p></blockquote><p><img src="http://bgavideo.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/royal-family.jpg" width="413" height="310" /></p><p>They look like they are doing fine.</p></blockquote><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p><p>oh good to know</p>

[RafaelSmith]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Is the SK playstyle so incompatible with troub you have to whine this much, or did some particular SK kick sand in your vag?</p></blockquote><p>Actually Troubador buff SK's very nicely. Think Warlock in plate and you know what a SK is. Based on the group setup I even sometimes put UT on the SK.</p><p>My main is a Guardian. On my troubador I usually only do pick-up groups and I haven't see a tank other than SK in weeks! I did run a zone with a Bezerker who tanked very well once you overlooked the running around willy nilly agroing dozens of mobs and killing us over and over. So, I don't really count that one since somebody's 10 year old was playing their parents account or something.</p></blockquote><p>Nice game-plan there originally.  Play it out like you are whining as a troub that for some reason only sees SKs when it really is all about your Guardian as a main.</p><p>Every tank clears all heroic content easily in SF.  Anybody with half a brain is going to take what ever tank is available first to run that 20 min heroic zone because of this.  PuGs will use Warriors, Crusaders, and Brawlers to tank any heroic instance and as usual it is a first come first serve.</p><p>No tank has trouble with agro this xpac except against other fighters.</p><p>Really stop making it sound like there is some huge imbalance when there isn't.</p><p>Yes, more people play SKs than Guards.  Can you blame them?  Just go look at the stupid character selection screen and SKs have always sounded way more fun to play.  There is a reason that the class throughout RPG history is one of the most popular classes.</p></blockquote><p>The reason the SK population has skyrocketed since TSO has nothing to do with "the description sounding cool".....its because everyone and their brother saw what was given to them in TSO....how easy, quick it was to tank instances as a SK without much if any effort. They saw a class that could tank as good as a Warrior while DPSing as good as a mage or scout and jumped on board the bandwagon.</p><p>We can argue forever as it seems we have been as to wether what was given to SKs was too much or not but the truth is that anyone can roll up a SK alt and be out mowing thru instances without much effort....the class has alot that is simply innate that makes things at the heroic level trivial no matter the gear level.  A scrub SK in legendary gear can tank for a group full of top geared plauyers with little to no issues with aggro or survival.  That is not the case for Guard. </p><p>I actually now more old-time SKs that suffered as you claaim SKs did in the past that benched their class during TSO because they hated what being an SK had become.</p><p>WHile its true alot of us come across as QQing....its not just Guards that claim SK is OP.  I dont think any major or massive nerf is required.....but the SK class as a whole needs to be toned done some with regards to all the things it can do all at the same time without any penalty(especially at the lower gear tiers).  Its simply not good for the overall balance of the archetype to not make a change.....and buffing the rest of us so we are at that level is not the answer because that would not be good the the overall balance of the game. </p><p>All that said.......Class count stats dont prove a [Removed for Content] thing other than what we already know......SK is a popular class.  Why that is is what people are debating over.   Its not as simple as "ooh it sounds like a cool class".</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Is the SK playstyle so incompatible with troub you have to whine this much, or did some particular SK kick sand in your vag?</p></blockquote><p>Actually Troubador buff SK's very nicely. Think Warlock in plate and you know what a SK is. Based on the group setup I even sometimes put UT on the SK.</p><p>My main is a Guardian. On my troubador I usually only do pick-up groups and I haven't see a tank other than SK in weeks! I did run a zone with a Bezerker who tanked very well once you overlooked the running around willy nilly agroing dozens of mobs and killing us over and over. So, I don't really count that one since somebody's 10 year old was playing their parents account or something.</p></blockquote><p>Nice game-plan there originally.  Play it out like you are whining as a troub that for some reason only sees SKs when it really is all about your Guardian as a main.</p><p>Every tank clears all heroic content easily in SF.  Anybody with half a brain is going to take what ever tank is available first to run that 20 min heroic zone because of this.  PuGs will use Warriors, Crusaders, and Brawlers to tank any heroic instance and as usual it is a first come first serve.</p><p>No tank has trouble with agro this xpac except against other fighters.</p><p>Really stop making it sound like there is some huge imbalance when there isn't.</p><p>Yes, more people play SKs than Guards.  Can you blame them?  Just go look at the stupid character selection screen and SKs have always sounded way more fun to play.  There is a reason that the class throughout RPG history is one of the most popular classes.</p></blockquote><p>The reason the SK population has skyrocketed since TSO has nothing to do with "the description sounding cool".....its because everyone and their brother saw what was given to them in TSO....how easy, quick it was to tank instances as a SK without much if any effort. They saw a class that could tank as good as a Warrior while DPSing as good as a mage or scout and jumped on board the bandwagon.</p><p>We can argue forever as it seems we have been as to wether what was given to SKs was too much or not but the truth is that anyone can roll up a SK alt and be out mowing thru instances without much effort....the class has alot that is simply innate that makes things at the heroic level trivial no matter the gear level.  A scrub SK in legendary gear can tank for a group full of top geared plauyers with little to no issues with aggro or survival.  That is not the case for Guard. </p><p>I actually now more old-time SKs that suffered as you claaim SKs did in the past that benched their class during TSO because they hated what being an SK had become.</p><p>WHile its true alot of us come across as QQing....its not just Guards that claim SK is OP.  I dont think any major or massive nerf is required.....but the SK class as a whole needs to be toned done some with regards to all the things it can do all at the same time without any penalty(especially at the lower gear tiers).  Its simply not good for the overall balance of the archetype to not make a change.....and buffing the rest of us so we are at that level is not the answer because that would not be good the the overall balance of the game. </p><p>All that said.......Class count stats dont prove a [Removed for Content] thing other than what we already know......SK is a popular class.  Why that is is what people are debating over.   Its not as simple as "ooh it sounds like a cool class".</p></blockquote><p>Yes, what happened is SOE finally made the class fit the description.  Over the course of eq2 and prior to TSO there were so many people that bailed on their SKs.  Heck when the game was fresh SKs were probably one of the most popular classes out there....than it just went down hill from there.  It wasn't long that everybody else found it necessary to beat up the SK coolness.....horse nerf anyone?</p><p>So SOE finally gave the boost to SKs that they needed.  Well 4+ years into the game its like SOE rolled out with a new class because the revamp was extensive and made a huge difference.  There is a reason that WoW made the Death Knight for a new class....it is what people want to play.  SOE had to make sure the SK was up to par and not dying like it had been in the past.</p><p>Well what happens when a game comes out with a "new" class.  Anytime somebody is deciding to make an alt it becomes a primary choice to try out.  And heck yeah the class is fun.  You do decent DPS and suck energy/life from your enemies.  So you get this huge rash from TSO of new SKs because it is new.</p><p>Now in SF everybody has been there done that.  I see just as many people rolling up Brawlers/Zerkers/Paladins as SKs.  Now I will definitely admit that less people are starting with Guards.  I mean if you aren't planning to MT why would you roll a Guard right?  Hopefully things can be changed to make Guard more fun to play outside of raids but as of right now there are 5 other tanks more fun to play for that type of content.</p><p>But there is a reason I rolled my SK at launch and not a Guard.  I read the description and I expected to play a toon like what SKs are today.  Its really sad that it took this long to actually be able to really enjoy the class.  I hated pre-TSO sitting there wishing I had rolled a different tank at launch and thinking about all the time I had invested into my SK only to feel like a replacable raid spot at any time.  Being a top notch SK didn't mean anything in RoK when I was looking for a new raid guild after the one I had been in a couple years collapsed.  I had tons of friends in lots of guilds that just gave the response we really can't find a reason to fit a SK into a raid guild right now even though we know you are an awesome player, we are really looking for a Warrior or Paladin right now for our 2nd plate tank....</p>

[Kota]

the influx of sk's is due to their op'ness. no doubt about it. really weren't that many of them at rok and before, but now you can't throw a rock without hitting 2. the class description hasn't changed since pre eq2 launch btw.

[Aull]

<p>Well soe's sub class descriptions led me to believe that my zerker was "the fighter" I would want for fighting many foe at once, not my sk. Howbeit no young zerker will touch an sk in aoe until the zerker mythical comes into the picture.</p><p>Anyways it is time for soe to post a more contemporary and accurate sub class descriptions for the new players.</p><p>Also I support the belief that the reason we see so many sk's in todays game is because no other fighter other than the paladin is able to cover all aspects like the sk is able to. Mythed zerks would be next. The other three fighters to me are able but are sub-par in all round performance.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>Breuner just wants all threads that point out his classes inbalance to be watered down and diluted. That class description crap is just that... crap. Breuner himself is the person who has dubbed the SK class as well rounded and fun to play.</p><p>In the SF expansion Guardoans are better than in TSO. Crusaders (SK's in particular) are still overpowered. Just becasue the specific idea of a class count came to mind while playing my Troubador in no way lessens the point and overall argument.</p><p>I only ask that my chosen class also be well rounde and fun to play just like SK's asked for when it wasn't the case.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Breuner just wants all threads that point out his classes inbalance to be watered down and diluted. That class description crap is just that... crap. Breuner himself is the person who has dubbed the SK class as well rounded and fun to play.</p><p>In the SF expansion Guardoans are better than in TSO. Crusaders (SK's in particular) are still overpowered. Just becasue the specific idea of a class count came to mind while playing my Troubador in no way lessens the point and overall argument.</p><p>I only ask that my chosen class also be well rounde and fun to play just like SK's asked for when it wasn't the case.</p></blockquote><p>Well than instead of making obscure threads to whine about SKs, or whining in every other thread about SKs, why don't you go post in the thread I made about ideas to make Guards that way.</p><p>I made a post early yesterday in an attempt to get ideas on how to increase Guard "fun-factor" and only 1 person has responded and he basically couldn't come up with any ideas.  Its pathetic that you all whine whine whine and can't come up with anything constructive to actually help your class out with realistic suggestions.  I probably came up with more to help your class without stealing abilities from other classes than you have since you started playing this game.  Nobody likes the little cheer-leaders that sit on the side and can't get in the game themselves to make a difference.</p><p>Put up or shut up imo.</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Breuner just wants all threads that point out his classes inbalance to be watered down and diluted. That class description crap is just that... crap. Breuner himself is the person who has dubbed the SK class as well rounded and fun to play.</p><p>In the SF expansion Guardoans are better than in TSO. Crusaders (SK's in particular) are still overpowered. Just becasue the specific idea of a class count came to mind while playing my Troubador in no way lessens the point and overall argument.</p><p>I only ask that my chosen class also be well rounde and fun to play just like SK's asked for when it wasn't the case.</p></blockquote><p>Well than instead of making obscure threads to whine about SKs, or whining in every other thread about SKs, why don't you go post in the thread I made about ideas to make Guards that way.</p><p>I made a post early yesterday in an attempt to get ideas on how to increase Guard "fun-factor" and only 1 person has responded and he basically couldn't come up with any ideas.  Its pathetic that you all whine whine whine and can't come up with anything constructive to actually help your class out with realistic suggestions.  I probably came up with more to help your class without stealing abilities from other classes than you have since you started playing this game.  Nobody likes the little cheer-leaders that sit on the side and can't get in the game themselves to make a difference.</p><p>Put up or shut up imo.</p></blockquote><p>Strange enough this is the 3rd thread I have read by you that has introduced the word "whine" in it, in only 5 minutes of reading. Seriously if you would just post rebutle to someones arguement instead of going straight to the "stop whining" comments some of these threads might actually hold merit.</p><p>No instead players who are obviously upset about their class they play day in and day out make post that are heated... can you blame them? NO.... But there is nothing positive comming out of any of this, its a back and forth about whine this and whine that. If you ran a search on the word "whine" in the general fighter boards you would be amazed what it came back with.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Breuner just wants all threads that point out his classes inbalance to be watered down and diluted. That class description crap is just that... crap. Breuner himself is the person who has dubbed the SK class as well rounded and fun to play.</p><p>In the SF expansion Guardoans are better than in TSO. Crusaders (SK's in particular) are still overpowered. Just becasue the specific idea of a class count came to mind while playing my Troubador in no way lessens the point and overall argument.</p><p>I only ask that my chosen class also be well rounde and fun to play just like SK's asked for when it wasn't the case.</p></blockquote><p>Well than instead of making obscure threads to whine about SKs, or whining in every other thread about SKs, why don't you go post in the thread I made about ideas to make Guards that way.</p><p>I made a post early yesterday in an attempt to get ideas on how to increase Guard "fun-factor" and only 1 person has responded and he basically couldn't come up with any ideas.  Its pathetic that you all whine whine whine and can't come up with anything constructive to actually help your class out with realistic suggestions.  I probably came up with more to help your class without stealing abilities from other classes than you have since you started playing this game.  Nobody likes the little cheer-leaders that sit on the side and can't get in the game themselves to make a difference.</p><p>Put up or shut up imo.</p></blockquote><p>Strange enough this is the 3rd thread I have read by you that has introduced the word "whine" in it, in only 5 minutes of reading. Seriously if you would just post rebutle to someones arguement instead of going straight to the "stop whining" comments some of these threads might actually hold merit.</p><p>No instead players who are obviously upset about their class they play day in and day out make post that are heated... can you blame them? NO.... But there is nothing positive comming out of any of this, its a back and forth about whine this and whine that. If you ran a search on the word "whine" in the general fighter boards you would be amazed what it came back with.</p></blockquote><p>I already responded to you in one of the other threads so I am not going to reiterate everything again.  But targetting a class calling for nerfs upsets people just as much.  That is the worse thing people can do because it definitely serves no purpose at all.  It doesn't get their class fixed because all it is is making other people upset and than they really could care less if they get tweaks they need b/c they have stooped to the level of trying to break somebody elses class out of jealousy.</p><p>But it is the easy way out of instead of actually trying to come up with ideas to help themselves out.  Everybody plays this game to have fun.  Fighter classes besides Guards seem to be having tons of fun and Guards aren't based on popular opinion.  So why the heck would you try and ruin the fun somebody else is having playing a GAME instead of coming up with some original ideas to make your class more fun.</p><p>Or we could all PM the devs and magically assume they understand everybody that plays this game....</p>

[arksun]

<p>You are playing both sides of the troll field.</p><p>On one side you are saying we arn't coming up with ideas after you magically make a thread about it, and on the other you are discrediting any pm's or previous post. Keep on going with this... its so painfully obvious how bad you are trying to hold on to the op characteristics of your class.</p><p>Never once did I discredit anything about SK's.....</p><p>But you are BLIND if you think 1h / Shield with 25% bonus to weapons is balance. This is the main feedback of everyone of these threads, plain and simple. BALANCE first, adjust/change/nerf/upgrade/downgrade after.</p><p>Keep going with the troll though ... done with everyone of these threads. My zerker is fun, I enjoy solo / duo / heroic and just from what I see im sure it will be fun to raid again on my zerker, yes im sure there are some tweaks to be made, but this time I will point my suggestions to a totally different person.</p><p>Ignore your playerbase... see how well that worked out for the last guy.</p>

[JoarAddam]

<p>OMG all classes should be painful to play!  If anyone is having fun they need to be nerfed?  Don't make MY class any more fun, i'll hate it and quit playing, so just make sure nobody else is having fun either...</p><p>reminds me of this...</p><p><img src="http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/emo-choices.jpg" width="450" height="563" /></p>

[Kota]

hey dig, i have a favor to ask. can you do an eyeball comparison of your CA damage to your guild sk's ? i'm just curious. i'm a zerk and i tank in about a 50/50 of dps oriented and tank gear, and my guild's sk is getting substantially more damage from his spells than i get from my ca's. our auto attack damage is about the same. single target i mean.

[Landiin]

Warriors hit rate is 80% average, Crusaders hit rate is around 90% average. Thats from all the parses I've seen and is the consensus of the community.

[Kota]

question wasn't about hit rates. it's ca damage from warrior vs spell damage from sk

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Warriors hit rate is 80% average, Crusaders hit rate is around 90% average. Thats from all the parses I've seen and is the consensus of the community.</blockquote><p>This is completely false now.  I was looking at hit rates the other night in raids and it is amazing how high they have gotten.  I am takling 95%+ hit rate on auto attack.  Think our Bruiser on one named fight I was checking out had a 97% hit rate.</p><p>Sorry, this little argument about hit rates really doesn't work anymore.</p>

[arksun]

<p>Yes hit rates do play a factor because on named encounters where you have to not "DPS" tank a crusaders spell hit rates will still average 95%~ and a warriors hit rates will be low 80's if not lower.</p><p>All of this stuff has been gone over time in and time out, the reason hit rates you see are not so low is because its easy DPS tank mobs, take ANY guard buff him fully defensive, and parse hit rates say on theer, or maluus imbued, 3 sages energized.</p><p>SK / Pally spells still hold 95%+ hit rates and warriors will be around 80's.</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>hey dig, i have a favor to ask. can you do an eyeball comparison of your CA damage to your guild sk's ? i'm just curious. i'm a zerk and i tank in about a 50/50 of dps oriented and tank gear, and my guild's sk is getting substantially more damage from his spells than i get from my ca's. our auto attack damage is about the same. single target i mean.</blockquote><p>I have all the logs since xpac started I'll try to find some comparisons of SK (MT) and Guard (MT) when I get off of work.  </p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>I tried the whole /who all for shadowknights and guards last night...and there were 16 guards on, and 26 SKs. 3 Sks were in raid zones, and 4 guards were in raid zones (plus 3 anon gaurds and 2 anon SKs...dunno where they were). I didn't check for Pally/Zerks. 8 guards were level 90, and 15 Sks were level 90. More SKs than guards were in overland zones (dunno if they were soloing or on the way to instances). Didn't seem too far out of whack imo (for 1 random check anyway). I know SKs solo pretty well, so I kind of expected to see more of 'em. /shrug</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>I run a parse and check it most nights to see if there is anything glaring I can see to help myself out. In those parses, when I'm tanking yellow + stuff I have a roughly 70-75% hit rate. My slashing is somthing like 630 solo and that gets buffed up in groups. Some of that is diluted a bit when I switch out of offensive when tanking harder mobs. When I'm running Library or something I'll be closer to 80% hit rate. My wife is an assassin and she'll be 98%+ hit rate on a harder instance with autoattack. Her CA's will be 99%+ on the harder zones. If I see her total hit rate below 98% I'm shocked and start asking what buffs went where and stuff. If I'm behind the mob I'm on my Troubador so I can't say what my hit rate is in a DPS spot. Who would EVER put a Guardian in a DPS spot?</p><p>I need 1 more AA to finish off my 15% strikethrough to help me in the hit rate department a bit.</p><p>My DPS is roughly 50/50 from CA's and autoattack. I work hard to keep my autoattack meter going and place my CA's between and I have that little bar thing to help out. I have the 40% AOE attack AA so when I run a blue zone and get 2-3 groups on me (go go proce/reactive hate! Can't do this with a Warlock in group and they get upset about it) then I can easily be 75% weapon damage vs CA attack. In full offensive with DW and a group of blues on me I will parse 6-9K (I have hit 9K and I whoop and fist pump when I do! AoE attack went off almost every attack)). In tank mode with single named and a shield and in no stance/defensive I'll run aroun 3-5K DPS (and 5k is rare and I have some special buff from somebody, I like Outer Vault with the tank pet to helpout my DPS numbers)</p><p>As for threat, in the harder zones my single highest threat generator is Hold the Line. My second was my T3 3 set bonus proc (which I just gave up and put a hate adornment on the item I traded out for 30% solo hate add). The proc on reversal is usually 3-4 with with Shout coming in there also (Grand Master choice). On the easy zones where I run offensive DW most of my pure agro is from my taunts/DPS and not my reactive taunts since I rarely get hit and my HTL block AA's don't count anymore due to DW'ing. <strong>Once again, Guardians have to make a choice to do more DPS for more hate and kill one of our class hate buffs. Also, reversal only works with a shiled so again, I lose a ton of threat when I got DW for DPS.</strong> Lately I just run full offenive with my shiled up. Seems to give the best threat/DPS combination. The shield avoidance makes it simple for the healers in easier zones. Unless it's a tougher zone I'll ask the healer go go get their dps spec if they have one.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I tried the whole /who all for shadowknights and guards last night...and there were 16 guards on, and 26 SKs. 3 Sks were in raid zones, and 4 guards were in raid zones (plus 3 anon gaurds and 2 anon SKs...dunno where they were). I didn't check for Pally/Zerks. 8 guards were level 90, and 15 Sks were level 90. More SKs than guards were in overland zones (dunno if they were soloing or on the way to instances). Didn't seem too far out of whack imo (for 1 random check anyway). I know SKs solo pretty well, so I kind of expected to see more of 'em. /shrug</p></blockquote><p>2:1 count is OK? How so?</p><p>I thought all classes being well rounded and fun was the goal?</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I tried the whole /who all for shadowknights and guards last night...and there were 16 guards on, and 26 SKs. 3 Sks were in raid zones, and 4 guards were in raid zones (plus 3 anon gaurds and 2 anon SKs...dunno where they were). I didn't check for Pally/Zerks. 8 guards were level 90, and 15 Sks were level 90. More SKs than guards were in overland zones (dunno if they were soloing or on the way to instances). Didn't seem too far out of whack imo (for 1 random check anyway). I know SKs solo pretty well, so I kind of expected to see more of 'em. /shrug</p></blockquote><p>2:1 count is OK? How so?</p><p>I thought all classes being well rounded and fun was the goal?</p></blockquote><p>And it should be.  So how does calling for nerfs to a class that does fit that description help your cause?  Sure that 2:1 ratio would change but only because people would go play another class that is much more enjoyable to play.  Hence why all your posts trying to get SKs nerfed are just plain made out of class envy and serve no good purpose other than trying to make the game less enjoyable for a large amount of people.</p><p>It is the easy way out where as coming up with original ideas to make your class more enjoyable is harder to do, but makes a ton more sense.</p><p>Give Guards more defensive utility for fellow members and allow them to generate more agro especially for heroic content and more people will play the class to steam-roll through heroic content like every other fighter class can.  The ratio becomes a lot closer together and it all happens without crying for nerfs to a class that does work well and amazingly works like the other fighter classes.</p><p>So what have you come up with to fix your own class besides trying to nerf other classes?</p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I tried the whole /who all for shadowknights and guards last night...and there were 16 guards on, and 26 SKs. 3 Sks were in raid zones, and 4 guards were in raid zones (plus 3 anon gaurds and 2 anon SKs...dunno where they were). I didn't check for Pally/Zerks. 8 guards were level 90, and 15 Sks were level 90. More SKs than guards were in overland zones (dunno if they were soloing or on the way to instances). Didn't seem too far out of whack imo (for 1 random check anyway). I know SKs solo pretty well, so I kind of expected to see more of 'em. /shrug</p></blockquote><p>2:1 count is OK? How so?</p><p>I thought all classes being well rounded and fun was the goal?</p></blockquote><p><p>No, I don't think so. I thought something fun for everyone was the goal, with the majority of content being aimed at the more casual player....if you like to tradeskill, you can tradeskill. If you prefer soloing, you can solo. If you like to group, you can group. If you like to raid, you can raid. if you want to be a pure DPS class you can do it. If you want a pure surviveability class you can choose that. If you want a mix, you can choose that. If you want to try different AA specs and specialities you can do it. etc etc. Keeping the classes relatively balanced promotes more variety and choice (for encounter devs as well), so in that aspect, yes...its part of the main goal (imo, of course). Having some slightly more specialized classes at certain things also has its benefits though...more choices (such as being able to take the abosolute most punishment, or having the absolute best mob offensive debuffss, etc.)!</p><p>From what I've been told (and assumed) is that guards' soloing is not their forte....so I would expect to see less of them engaged in that type of activity at any random time (much like it is rare that you will see me soloing by choice on my inquisitor or dirge, its just not fun imo). For ones actually raiding, I would expect to see a closer balance of plate tank class numbers, since none of them seem to have the edge in all aspects, most are not min-maxers anyway, and there are a ton of guilds all trying to put forces together with a limited number of wiling participants. The majority of people don't raid and/or can't raid often...so many guilds are just happy to have a couple reliable plate tanks of any class lol. Coincidentally, the numbers seemed to reflect that (actually more balanced than I expected to see, as I assumed that with more SKs on the server that I would see more in raid zones as well...i.e less guards, therefore less spread amongst all guilds).</p><p>In the 1 random check I did, there were more guards in raid zones than SKs (excluding the anons). 1 random check doesn't mean much, but it was interesting anyway. More SKs appeared to be soloing, and more guards were raiding. Either way, there wasn't a disporportionate amount of either raiding (at that time). Now, who was Mting and who was OTing...and which ones were with pallys and zerk MT/OTs? Which ones were killing what in each zone? Dunno. I was curious, but not *that* curious! I'll check again occasionally anyway <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p></p>

[Wasuna]

<p>So Two (2) Shadowknights get to define what an acceptable inbalance is?</p><p>And, what of the posts in this thread that show a 4:1 & 5:1 ratio? Is that in your window of acceptable inbalance?</p><p>Last item Breuner. Check my posts. I have said to balance the classes so that they are all 'well rounded and fun'. I said buff Guardians or smack crusaders. I don't care which. I believe I only specifically comments on the fact that Crusaders don't have to make a DPS/Survivability choice like the rest of the fighters do. Once again, get it straight.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Warriors hit rate is 80% average, Crusaders hit rate is around 90% average. Thats from all the parses I've seen and is the consensus of the community.</blockquote><p>This is completely false now.  I was looking at hit rates the other night in raids and it is amazing how high they have gotten.  I am takling 95%+ hit rate on auto attack.  Think our Bruiser on one named fight I was checking out had a 97% hit rate.</p><p>Sorry, this little argument about hit rates really doesn't work anymore.</p></blockquote><p>You fail again! I said Warrior what part of that don't you understand? Just for the recored I said Warrior not Bruiser, I hope that helps you out there little guy.</p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<hr /><p><span><span style="color: #ffffff;"> </span>So Two (2) Shadowknights get to define what an acceptable inbalance is?<p>And, what of the posts in this thread that show a 4:1 & 5:1 ratio? Is that in your window of acceptable inbalance?</p></span></p><p><hr /></p><p>Not sure if any one or two people can. Most likely it is a team effort at SOE who define it...we, as players, just judge it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>..and I don't know about Paladins, but as an SK, if I want to max DPS, I give up a ton of surviveability and hate (through gear and AAs). If I want to do as much DPS as I can and try to maintain decent surviveability and hate, its a balancing act. Always has been.</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>..and I don't know about Paladins, but as an SK, if I want to max DPS, I give up a ton of surviveability.</p></blockquote><p>So you are saying tanking with a shield is less survivability than tanking DW? All while the dps is = to that of each other.</p><p>It really can't be that hard for everyone to understand the underlying problems here.</p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>Nope, I'm saying that its a complete spec and gear change to max DPS <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Warriors hit rate is 80% average, Crusaders hit rate is around 90% average. Thats from all the parses I've seen and is the consensus of the community.</blockquote><p>This is completely false now.  I was looking at hit rates the other night in raids and it is amazing how high they have gotten.  I am takling 95%+ hit rate on auto attack.  Think our Bruiser on one named fight I was checking out had a 97% hit rate.</p><p>Sorry, this little argument about hit rates really doesn't work anymore.</p></blockquote><p>You fail again! I said Warrior what part of that don't you understand? Just for the recored I said Warrior not Bruiser, I hope that helps you out there little guy.</p></blockquote><p>For crying out loud its like you never even read what is posted before you hit the reply button.  I said I checked the hit rate of everybody and the rates are way higher than what people make them out to be.  I raid with a Guard and Bruiser right now, so guess what...that includes Warriors.  Now if somebody drops into defensive it hurts their hit rate....FOR EVERY FIGHTER CLASS.  But last time I checked hardly anybody ever fights in defensive, and when they do it is most like their T1 defensive stance so they hardly lose any +skillz.  Also it is common knowledge that those in front of the mob will have a lower hit rate than those behind, no matter what tank is up in front of it.  That being said any fighter DPS'ing, not tanking, will have high hit rates, high 90%.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>..and I don't know about Paladins, but as an SK, if I want to max DPS, I give up a ton of surviveability.</p></blockquote><p>So you are saying tanking with a shield is less survivability than tanking DW? All while the dps is = to that of each other.</p><p>It really can't be that hard for everyone to understand the underlying problems here.</p></blockquote><p>Depends on what DW'ing class you are talking about.  One can take half the damage while doing it.</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>..and I don't know about Paladins, but as an SK, if I want to max DPS, I give up a ton of surviveability.</p></blockquote><p>So you are saying tanking with a shield is less survivability than tanking DW? All while the dps is = to that of each other.</p><p>It really can't be that hard for everyone to understand the underlying problems here.</p></blockquote><p>Depends on what DW'ing class you are talking about.  One can take half the damage while doing it.</p></blockquote><p>Please tell me you are not implying that a Guardian DW'ing takes half the damage of an SK with a shield doing = to dps. Please show me data that proves this "theory" you have, once you can prove that I will humor you with a reply.</p>

[Dreadpatch]

I don't play a tank class. My independent view is that Crusaders are ridiculously overpowered. It's so blatant anyone with two eyes in their head that plays this game knows it. That's why there's about 5 threads going on the subject right now. I'm on PVE, so it's good to have OP tanks I guess, but there are WAY WAY more SK's and Pallys than any other tank class. I can't spit and not hit one. I guess my opinion would be it's not really fair to the other tank classes when trying to find groups and raids. The only two people defending crusader leetness in this thread are in fact crusaders.

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Warriors hit rate is 80% average, Crusaders hit rate is around 90% average. Thats from all the parses I've seen and is the consensus of the community.</blockquote><p>This is completely false now.  I was looking at hit rates the other night in raids and it is amazing how high they have gotten.  I am takling 95%+ hit rate on auto attack.  Think our Bruiser on one named fight I was checking out had a 97% hit rate.</p><p>Sorry, this little argument about hit rates really doesn't work anymore.</p></blockquote><p>You fail again! I said Warrior what part of that don't you understand? Just for the recored I said Warrior not Bruiser, I hope that helps you out there little guy.</p></blockquote><p>For crying out loud its like you never even read what is posted before you hit the reply button.  I said I checked the hit rate of everybody and the rates are way higher than what people make them out to be.  I raid with a Guard and Bruiser right now, so guess what...that includes Warriors.  Now if somebody drops into defensive it hurts their hit rate....FOR EVERY FIGHTER CLASS.  But last time I checked hardly anybody ever fights in defensive, and when they do it is most like their T1 defensive stance so they hardly lose any +skillz.  Also it is common knowledge that those in front of the mob will have a lower hit rate than those behind, no matter what tank is up in front of it.  That being said any fighter DPS'ing, not tanking, will have high hit rates, high 90%.</p></blockquote><p>Post these parses then? I don't think u can. Hell in beta you couldn't even post a parse of you threat output. I've seen my parses, I've seen other parses and umm every one else says the same thing 80%, 90% but you... So guess what little guy?</p>

[Phelon_Skellhound]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>..and I don't know about Paladins, but as an SK, if I want to max DPS, I give up a ton of surviveability.</p></blockquote><p>So you are saying tanking with a shield is less survivability than tanking DW? All while the dps is = to that of each other.</p><p>It really can't be that hard for everyone to understand the underlying problems here.</p></blockquote><p>Depends on what DW'ing class you are talking about.  One can take half the damage while doing it.</p></blockquote><p>We dont have to have a shield on... putting something other than a sheild in hand decreases survivability too</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Warriors hit rate is 80% average, Crusaders hit rate is around 90% average. Thats from all the parses I've seen and is the consensus of the community.</blockquote><p>This is completely false now.  I was looking at hit rates the other night in raids and it is amazing how high they have gotten.  I am takling 95%+ hit rate on auto attack.  Think our Bruiser on one named fight I was checking out had a 97% hit rate.</p><p>Sorry, this little argument about hit rates really doesn't work anymore.</p></blockquote><p>You fail again! I said Warrior what part of that don't you understand? Just for the recored I said Warrior not Bruiser, I hope that helps you out there little guy.</p></blockquote><p>For crying out loud its like you never even read what is posted before you hit the reply button.  I said I checked the hit rate of everybody and the rates are way higher than what people make them out to be.  I raid with a Guard and Bruiser right now, so guess what...that includes Warriors.  Now if somebody drops into defensive it hurts their hit rate....FOR EVERY FIGHTER CLASS.  But last time I checked hardly anybody ever fights in defensive, and when they do it is most like their T1 defensive stance so they hardly lose any +skillz.  Also it is common knowledge that those in front of the mob will have a lower hit rate than those behind, no matter what tank is up in front of it.  That being said any fighter DPS'ing, not tanking, will have high hit rates, high 90%.</p></blockquote><p>Post these parses then? I don't think u can. Hell in beta you couldn't even post a parse of you threat output. I've seen my parses, I've seen other parses and umm every one else says the same thing 80%, 90% but you... So guess what little guy?</p></blockquote><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/38367-random-guardian-parse-thread-32.html">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...-thread-32.html</a></p><p>Wow, that was real hard.  Go look in the Guard thread on Flames and check out Digg's hit %.....thats right even MT'ing he has a hit rate % of high 90's....just like everybody else.</p><p>Honestly the hit rate % is nothing like it was in TSO and as usual you just don't seem to have a clue.  OMG now go look in the SK forum at their hit rate %.  Well what do you know, Diggs parses actually all have a higher hit rate % than SKs.</p><p>Are people really that clueless with how things work now or is it all a ploy because you have class envy?</p>

[Mavrin]

<p>Guardians natural defenses ie parry defence block, do in fact cover them DW vs crusaders with a shield. Our raiding guard and myself talk numbers all the time and he was 200 parry alone over me with his t4 armor vs my SF Fabled armor so quit the whine SOE can look at numbers too. As for the high hit rates most raiding tanks are hitting more because they have slash in the high 700's so basically using myself as an example I'm hitting as a level 147 toon vs the level 98 mob ie I hit it alot.</p><p>On the subject creating more nerf whiner posts I have a suggestion if you hate your toon that much just quit the game, you know the old saying put up or shut up and definately don't threaten the rest of us with a good time..</p><p>If it wasn't for all the bs whining around here maybe we could get some useful dialogue going on things that actually do need fixed for the various tank classes.</p>

[Herme]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Warriors hit rate is 80% average, Crusaders hit rate is around 90% average. Thats from all the parses I've seen and is the consensus of the community.</blockquote><p>This is completely false now.  I was looking at hit rates the other night in raids and it is amazing how high they have gotten.  I am takling 95%+ hit rate on auto attack.  Think our Bruiser on one named fight I was checking out had a 97% hit rate.</p><p>Sorry, this little argument about hit rates really doesn't work anymore.</p></blockquote><p>You fail again! I said Warrior what part of that don't you understand? Just for the recored I said Warrior not Bruiser, I hope that helps you out there little guy.</p></blockquote><p>For crying out loud its like you never even read what is posted before you hit the reply button.  I said I checked the hit rate of everybody and the rates are way higher than what people make them out to be.  I raid with a Guard and Bruiser right now, so guess what...that includes Warriors.  Now if somebody drops into defensive it hurts their hit rate....FOR EVERY FIGHTER CLASS.  But last time I checked hardly anybody ever fights in defensive, and when they do it is most like their T1 defensive stance so they hardly lose any +skillz.  Also it is common knowledge that those in front of the mob will have a lower hit rate than those behind, no matter what tank is up in front of it.  That being said any fighter DPS'ing, not tanking, will have high hit rates, high 90%.</p></blockquote><p>Post these parses then? I don't think u can. Hell in beta you couldn't even post a parse of you threat output. I've seen my parses, I've seen other parses and umm every one else says the same thing 80%, 90% but you... So guess what little guy?</p></blockquote><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/38367-random-guardian-parse-thread-32.html">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...-thread-32.html</a></p><p>Wow, that was real hard.  Go look in the Guard thread on Flames and check out Digg's hit %.....thats right even MT'ing he has a hit rate % of high 90's....just like everybody else.</p><p>Honestly the hit rate % is nothing like it was in TSO and as usual you just don't seem to have a clue.  OMG now go look in the SK forum at their hit rate %.  Well what do you know, Diggs parses actually all have a higher hit rate % than SKs.</p><p>Are people really that clueless with how things work now or is it all a ploy because you have class envy?</p></blockquote><p>I don't have class envy because frankly I don't care about SK's and raids much at this moment.  I've benched my guard for my monk because it's more fun.  But do you honestly think that the SK's DPS potential and aggro potential capabilities balance out the survivability benefits of the guard?</p><p>Taking this down a notch into heroic instances.  Have you tried tanking cella with a guard in current tier legendary gear?  It's downright painful.  Sword and board, defensive and unless I had the perfect group setup it was a wipe fest.  Invite the shadowknight alt that is still in last tier's t2 shard armor and blam, the mob drops. </p><p>In the piece of the game that 90% of the player base plays in, SKs and Pallies are ridiculously overpowered.  I agree, all tanks are viable options for heroic content, but try playing that heroic content in heroic gear, you can tell which ones have an easier time of it.  I think I'm one of the last players on my server who builds pugs with my monk or guard tanking.  I don't see many others doing it, I wonder why.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Warriors hit rate is 80% average, Crusaders hit rate is around 90% average. Thats from all the parses I've seen and is the consensus of the community.</blockquote><p>This is completely false now.  I was looking at hit rates the other night in raids and it is amazing how high they have gotten.  I am takling 95%+ hit rate on auto attack.  Think our Bruiser on one named fight I was checking out had a 97% hit rate.</p><p>Sorry, this little argument about hit rates really doesn't work anymore.</p></blockquote><p>You fail again! I said Warrior what part of that don't you understand? Just for the recored I said Warrior not Bruiser, I hope that helps you out there little guy.</p></blockquote><p>For crying out loud its like you never even read what is posted before you hit the reply button.  I said I checked the hit rate of everybody and the rates are way higher than what people make them out to be.  I raid with a Guard and Bruiser right now, so guess what...that includes Warriors.  Now if somebody drops into defensive it hurts their hit rate....FOR EVERY FIGHTER CLASS.  But last time I checked hardly anybody ever fights in defensive, and when they do it is most like their T1 defensive stance so they hardly lose any +skillz.  Also it is common knowledge that those in front of the mob will have a lower hit rate than those behind, no matter what tank is up in front of it.  That being said any fighter DPS'ing, not tanking, will have high hit rates, high 90%.</p></blockquote><p>Post these parses then? I don't think u can. Hell in beta you couldn't even post a parse of you threat output. I've seen my parses, I've seen other parses and umm every one else says the same thing 80%, 90% but you... So guess what little guy?</p></blockquote><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/38367-random-guardian-parse-thread-32.html">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...-thread-32.html</a></p><p>Wow, that was real hard.  Go look in the Guard thread on Flames and check out Digg's hit %.....thats right even MT'ing he has a hit rate % of high 90's....just like everybody else.</p><p>Honestly the hit rate % is nothing like it was in TSO and as usual you just don't seem to have a clue.  OMG now go look in the SK forum at their hit rate %.  Well what do you know, Diggs parses actually all have a higher hit rate % than SKs.</p><p>Are people really that clueless with how things work now or is it all a ploy because you have class envy?</p></blockquote><p>That is not YOUR parse... I don't even think u can operate ACT to be honest.</p><p>But really that is him DW and all offensive buffs. Let him put on a shield and be defensive buffed and yea the truth comes out. Again you have no clue on half the crap you spew little guy.</p>

[Macross_JR]

<p><cite>Mavrin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Guardians natural defenses ie parry defence block, do in fact cover them DW vs crusaders with a shield. Our raiding guard and myself talk numbers all the time and he was 200 parry alone over me with his t4 armor vs my SF Fabled armor so quit the whine SOE can look at numbers too. As for the high hit rates most raiding tanks are hitting more because they have slash in the high 700's so basically using myself as an example I'm hitting as a level 147 toon vs the level 98 mob ie I hit it alot.</p><p>On the subject creating more nerf whiner posts I have a suggestion if you hate your toon that much just quit the game, you know the old saying put up or shut up and definately don't threaten the rest of us with a good time..</p><p>If it wasn't for all the bs whining around here maybe we could get some useful dialogue going on things that actually do need fixed for the various tank classes.</p></blockquote><p>You have no clue what you are talking about.  Bringing up Parry.....one of the most useless defensive skills in the game...ha!  I don't know if you know this or not, but increasing parry and defense is useless.  It doesn't help.  Have you personally seen someones melee skill sitting at 700? cause that would be cool, but I don't think so.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Githil@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mavrin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Guardians natural defenses ie parry defence block, do in fact cover them DW vs crusaders with a shield. Our raiding guard and myself talk numbers all the time and he was 200 parry alone over me with his t4 armor vs my SF Fabled armor so quit the whine SOE can look at numbers too. As for the high hit rates most raiding tanks are hitting more because they have slash in the high 700's so basically using myself as an example I'm hitting as a level 147 toon vs the level 98 mob ie I hit it alot.</p><p>On the subject creating more nerf whiner posts I have a suggestion if you hate your toon that much just quit the game, you know the old saying put up or shut up and definately don't threaten the rest of us with a good time..</p><p>If it wasn't for all the bs whining around here maybe we could get some useful dialogue going on things that actually do need fixed for the various tank classes.</p></blockquote><p>You have no clue what you are talking about.  Bringing up Parry.....one of the most useless defensive skills in the game...ha!  I don't know if you know this or not, but increasing parry and defense is useless.  It doesn't help.  Have you personally seen someones melee skill sitting at 700? cause that would be cool, but I don't think so.</p></blockquote><p>700 isn't that hard to get.</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Mavrin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Guardians natural defenses ie parry defence block, do in fact cover them DW vs crusaders with a shield. Our raiding guard and myself talk numbers all the time and he was 200 parry alone over me with his t4 armor vs my SF Fabled armor so quit the whine SOE can look at numbers too. As for the high hit rates most raiding tanks are hitting more because they have slash in the high 700's so basically using myself as an example I'm hitting as a level 147 toon vs the level 98 mob ie I hit it alot.</p><p>On the subject creating more nerf whiner posts I have a suggestion if you hate your toon that much just quit the game, you know the old saying put up or shut up and definately don't threaten the rest of us with a good time..</p><p>If it wasn't for all the bs whining around here maybe we could get some useful dialogue going on things that actually do need fixed for the various tank classes.</p></blockquote><p>.......... you should really let other crusaders do a not so terrible job at trying to hold on to op. Everything you just said makes no sense.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/38367-random-guardian-parse-thread-32.html">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...-thread-32.html</a></p><p>Wow, that was real hard.  Go look in the Guard thread on Flames and check out Digg's hit %.....thats right even MT'ing he has a hit rate % of high 90's....just like everybody else.</p><p>Honestly the hit rate % is nothing like it was in TSO and as usual you just don't seem to have a clue.  OMG now go look in the SK forum at their hit rate %.  Well what do you know, Diggs parses actually all have a higher hit rate % than SKs.</p><p>Are people really that clueless with how things work now or is it all a ploy because you have class envy?</p></blockquote><p>That is not YOUR parse... I don't even think u can operate ACT to be honest.</p><p>But really that is him DW and all offensive buffs. Let him put on a shield and be defensive buffed and yea the truth comes out. Again you have no clue on half the crap you spew little guy.</p></blockquote><p>Seriously, you are reaching as usual.  Every tank sees a huge drop in their hit rate % when they go defensive.  But just to point something out to you, there is hardly any time a tank actually goes defensive.</p><p>You asked to see parses, there ya go.  It took me 2 seconds to put in that link so I didn't have to try and go back through and read my logs.  You can also go look in the SK and Paladin forums and check out the hit rate on their parses and you will notice it is lower.</p><p>As to the person above, I have started a thread to try and get ideas for what would improve Guard play style at the heroic level.  Very few people seem to actually want to come up with anything though and would much rather try and crap on another class.  Its just so much easier to complain than to actually think and convey ideas I guess.</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/38367-random-guardian-parse-thread-32.html">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...-thread-32.html</a></p><p>Wow, that was real hard.  Go look in the Guard thread on Flames and check out Digg's hit %.....thats right even MT'ing he has a hit rate % of high 90's....just like everybody else.</p><p>Honestly the hit rate % is nothing like it was in TSO and as usual you just don't seem to have a clue.  OMG now go look in the SK forum at their hit rate %.  Well what do you know, Diggs parses actually all have a higher hit rate % than SKs.</p><p>Are people really that clueless with how things work now or is it all a ploy because you have class envy?</p></blockquote><p>You really don't know whats going on here. Every parse I put up that has high hit rates is due to the fact I am using a temp buff Insight. Look at real defensive fights ..... This is Maalus Imbued. Whats the going rate on maalus imbued parses for SK's again? .... o yeah 40k (MT'ing)</p><p><img src="http://www.djdig.com/EQ2/maalus_imbued_digg.jpg" width="1917" height="1200" /></p>

[Mavrin]

<p>"You have no clue what you are talking about.  Bringing up Parry.....one of the most useless defensive skills in the game...ha!  I don't know if you know this or not, but increasing parry and defense is useless.  It doesn't help.  Have you personally seen someones melee skill sitting at 700? cause that would be cool, but I don't think so"</p><p>A. Defence is fixed on test, so its not useless we're just waiting for it to go live. And when it does go live its going to change alot of things because without the wrap around issue mobs gonna have a hella time hitting most well geared tanks. I parry alot so I guess its useless to parry the big hits that a mob like the barrier can toss in spike damage.</p><p>B. My slash is 785 could get it over 800 but I dont see a reason too.</p><p>C. If you haven't seen a tank with melee skill over 700 your in garbage treasured or legendary gear and have no right to scream nerf because its not your class its your lack of ability to improve your own toon. </p>

[Nulgara]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Seriously, you are reaching as usual.  Every tank sees a huge drop in their hit rate % when they go defensive.  But just to point something out to you,<strong> there is hardly any time a tank actually goes defensive.</strong></p></blockquote><p>Good luck finding a single brawler that tanks RAID content in offensive. and if ya do find one,, tell their healers i feel bad for them cause that brawler is a [Removed for Content].</p>

[Brildean]

<p>i'm seeing slash having a hit rate of 74% ...</p>

[steelbadger]

<p><cite>Mavrin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>"You have no clue what you are talking about.  Bringing up Parry.....one of the most useless defensive skills in the game...ha!  I don't know if you know this or not, but increasing parry and defense is useless.  It doesn't help.  Have you personally seen someones melee skill sitting at 700? cause that would be cool, but I don't think so"</p><p>A. Defence is fixed on test, so its not useless we're just waiting for it to go live. And when it does go live its going to change alot of things because without the wrap around issue mobs gonna have a hella time hitting most well geared tanks. I parry alot so I guess its useless to parry the big hits that a mob like the barrier can toss in spike damage.</p><p>B. My slash is 785 could get it over 800 but I dont see a reason too.</p><p>C. If you haven't seen a tank with melee skill over 700 your in garbage treasured or legendary gear and have no right to scream nerf because its not your class its your lack of ability to improve your own toon. </p></blockquote><p>"Fixed"?</p><p>All I can find in test update notes with regards to def and parry is:</p><blockquote><p><span >Increasing your defense, parry, and/or deflection skills to very high levels will no longer cause your chance to avoid attacks to go down.</span></p></blockquote><p>And that's all very well and nice, but at the moment def and parry still provide no real benefit vs most raid mobs as their hit chances are so highly buffed.  The problem fixed was not the problem that made def and parry useless.  It's the fact that def and parry offer absolutely no benefits verses raid mobs.</p><p>You "Parry a lot".  Can you please post an avoidance breakdown for a mob where it might actually matter that shows this "lot" of parrying?  I personally only parry anything because of uncontested parry drinks.  Parry skill certainly seems to have no raid benefits whatsoever, to me, at least.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/38367-random-guardian-parse-thread-32.html">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...-thread-32.html</a></p><p>Wow, that was real hard.  Go look in the Guard thread on Flames and check out Digg's hit %.....thats right even MT'ing he has a hit rate % of high 90's....just like everybody else.</p><p>Honestly the hit rate % is nothing like it was in TSO and as usual you just don't seem to have a clue.  OMG now go look in the SK forum at their hit rate %.  Well what do you know, Diggs parses actually all have a higher hit rate % than SKs.</p><p>Are people really that clueless with how things work now or is it all a ploy because you have class envy?</p></blockquote><p>You really don't know whats going on here. Every parse I put up that has high hit rates is due to the fact I am using a temp buff Insight. Look at real defensive fights ..... This is Maalus Imbued. Whats the going rate on maalus imbued parses for SK's again? .... o yeah 40k (MT'ing)</p></blockquote><p>I know exactly what I am talking about, and stop trying to play crap off.  I can go back through and look at post after post of your parses where you have extremely high hit rate.  Posting a parse from over a month ago where you decided for some reason to tank it in defensive is not going to prove a thing.  Any tank going defensive sees that large drop in hit rate.  Its why people don't tank in defensive.</p><p>Do I need to tank a mob in defensive to show the hit rate being bad too?</p><p>The point is in everyday situations Warrior hit rate is just as high or higher than Crusader hit rate.  Something that you can easily see by scanning the parses in each fighter forum.</p><p>Why don't you show us the 21k Maalus fight instead?  Or show us a parse of how you usually fight probably all but a few mobs....in offensive DW'ing.</p><p>Yes hit rate in defensive is low, pretty sure everybody knows that already.</p>

[Macross_JR]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/38367-random-guardian-parse-thread-32.html">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...-thread-32.html</a></p><p>Wow, that was real hard.  Go look in the Guard thread on Flames and check out Digg's hit %.....thats right even MT'ing he has a hit rate % of high 90's....just like everybody else.</p><p>Honestly the hit rate % is nothing like it was in TSO and as usual you just don't seem to have a clue.  OMG now go look in the SK forum at their hit rate %.  Well what do you know, Diggs parses actually all have a higher hit rate % than SKs.</p><p>Are people really that clueless with how things work now or is it all a ploy because you have class envy?</p></blockquote><p>You really don't know whats going on here. Every parse I put up that has high hit rates is due to the fact I am using a temp buff Insight. Look at real defensive fights ..... This is Maalus Imbued. Whats the going rate on maalus imbued parses for SK's again? .... o yeah 40k (MT'ing)</p></blockquote><p>I know exactly what I am talking about, and stop trying to play crap off.  I can go back through and look at post after post of your parses where you have extremely high hit rate.  Posting a parse from over a month ago where you decided for some reason to tank it in defensive is not going to prove a thing.  Any tank going defensive sees that large drop in hit rate.  Its why people don't tank in defensive.</p><p>Do I need to tank a mob in defensive to show the hit rate being bad too?</p><p>The point is in everyday situations Warrior hit rate is just as high or higher than Crusader hit rate.  Something that you can easily see by scanning the parses in each fighter forum.</p><p>Why don't you show us the 21k Maalus fight instead?  Or show us a parse of how you usually fight probably all but a few mobs....in offensive DW'ing.</p><p>Yes hit rate in defensive is low, pretty sure everybody knows that already.</p></blockquote><p>Bruener you know why he fights in offensive stance dw'ing? Because he has to to do his best to keep his guilds SK from pulling agro.  And those really high parses he has with the good hit rates is due to a temp buff warriors get that buff strikethrough by 75%, a TEMP buff you tool.  Oh yeah, a 21k Maalus fight where SK's are doing 40k...yeah, that's a huge upgrade from 16k to 21k...get real man.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>.</p>

[arksun]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Digg@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/38367-random-guardian-parse-thread-32.html">http://www.eq2flames.com/guardians/...-thread-32.html</a></p><p>Wow, that was real hard.  Go look in the Guard thread on Flames and check out Digg's hit %.....thats right even MT'ing he has a hit rate % of high 90's....just like everybody else.</p><p>Honestly the hit rate % is nothing like it was in TSO and as usual you just don't seem to have a clue.  OMG now go look in the SK forum at their hit rate %.  Well what do you know, Diggs parses actually all have a higher hit rate % than SKs.</p><p>Are people really that clueless with how things work now or is it all a ploy because you have class envy?</p></blockquote><p>You really don't know whats going on here. Every parse I put up that has high hit rates is due to the fact I am using a temp buff Insight. Look at real defensive fights ..... This is Maalus Imbued. Whats the going rate on maalus imbued parses for SK's again? .... o yeah 40k (MT'ing)</p></blockquote><p>I know exactly what I am talking about, and stop trying to play crap off.  I can go back through and look at post after post of your parses where you have extremely high hit rate.  Posting a parse from over a month ago where you decided for some reason to tank it in defensive is not going to prove a thing.  Any tank going defensive sees that large drop in hit rate.  Its why people don't tank in defensive.</p><p>Do I need to tank a mob in defensive to show the hit rate being bad too?</p><p>The point is in everyday situations Warrior hit rate is just as high or higher than Crusader hit rate.  Something that you can easily see by scanning the parses in each fighter forum.</p><p>Why don't you show us the 21k Maalus fight instead?  Or show us a parse of how you usually fight probably all but a few mobs....in offensive DW'ing.</p><p>Yes hit rate in defensive is low, pretty sure everybody knows that already.</p></blockquote><p>You seriously don't get it ..... let me see if I can help you with this. Look at all my CA's in my parse and look at the Hit rates of them including my auto which is at 74%. Show me a parse where the majority of the SK's spells hit rates match ones in my list. Just so you can't get off subject again remember I said my "CA's" and "Auto". Not procs, from gear, buffs, etc....</p><p>SK's spell hit rates are always in the 90~ + area, I should not as a defensive tank have to tank mobs in offensive stance while DW'ing, the balance is not there and allowing SK's to wear a shield and 1h while maximizing dps and surpassing warrior survivability while we have to tank in offensive stance with DW to match that of said crusader is "Wrong".</p><p>Replying to you is probably the most idiotic thing I can do while wasting my time reading these boards, you are without a doubt the biggest troll I have ever seen on any game board I have ever read, your only intent in anyone of these threads is to stop your class from being balanced wether it be through a nerf or buffs to other tanks.</p><p>This is why once you saw all these threads forming up and people in the mass coming here to prove there is something wrong you even went as far to create a thread that says "What Guards Need" .... all that thread does is tries to move the subject away from crusaders ... and how can I forget you also made a thread "Taking the light off of shadowknights".</p><p>I totally understand you love your class now, and its fun and enjoyable to you.. but in the grand scheme of things every class needs to be balanced. We all know its coming so why are fighting tooth and nail with these mindless rants that you know will do nothing, I can pull a parse from the first day I raided this tier till now....</p><p>Guess what .......... in the 21k parse I have my hit rates are basically the same. How about tunning spell hit rates down to match that of melee CA's and lets see how things pan out ... or let me guess that would just spring to life another "take the light off of shadowknight thread".</p>