disgruntled summoner and pvp imbalance [Archive]

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anamii

05-09-2010, 05:59 AM

yes this is a gripe over certain classes being overpowered with abilities that have no place in pvp as well as the unfair advantage some classes have at the moment1/ SK coming back to life instantly after you kill them, we had one sk we had to kill 6 times in a row in a Den match due to his raid adorn / illy buff, (this is insanity) this is highly unfair dead = dead, respawn at respawn point or get rezzed like the rest of the classes for those denying sks can have 6 lifesaves they are obviuosly misleading an SK can have 3 lifesaves with the red adorn however with the double cast buff from an illy 3 lifesaves becomes 6 lifesaves thats right 3 x 2 = 6 incase you need the maths. this is fine for PVE but very OP for PVP. even 1 lifesave for pvp is OP for any class, unless all have a lifesave ability./2 beserkers can also have this abilit whilst fine for pve these reborn abilities have no fair place in pvp as they already have a huge advantage mitigation, dps and self healing.I apologise for the above sentence re beserkers as it insinuates they have the same number as SK's i realise they only have 2, the statement was in reference to Beserkers having an OP lifesave ability similiar to SK's in PVPTanks are unstoppable now after the recent nerfs to mage classes, the reason tanks wear plate is due to not being squishy and there dps is supposedly much lower than squishy classes, not so in this game, where SK's often top the parse not only in damage but also in healing what a joke, lets also toss in immnuity timers, 50 meter ranged spell cast, ability to equip 50m ranged bow as well that can auto atack for 2k rofl, there is almost on reason to play any other class. (i do not wish to play an sk however)There is no reference to Tanks having higher resists, what i'm saying is that 90% of CC after the patch is resistedplate mitigation reduces damage, falsely claiming i stated resists is a poor attemt to derail this threadI do understand you trying to protect your OP lifesave advantage in PVP by ridiculing others and trying to derail this thread it was expectedsome players say CC them, another joke as 90% of CC is resisted, and your dead in seconds even in full BG gear.Scout classes kill mage summoners as fast as wizards/warloks used to prenerf kill any class. Rangers kill all bar tanks in 1-3 seconds if decently geared from upto 50m, you cannot even get close enough to cast before your dead and then even if you get the jump they still win 90% unless in crappy gear The range of bows of 50m is a concern and yes you do see some tanks in BG's just running about plinking with bows for 2k auto attack hits (bow of the underfoot) all bows in pvp need to be limited to 35m maximum range. (Enoe nice attempt to derail this thread by saying i claim bows are the most OP ability you have and then cry about being CC'd which is currently broken).The resists were messed up before i agree however it was only a few classes wizard, warlok and Sk lifetap that were one shotting players and conjy pet. It takes forever to kill a player on a summoner now, however a tank or scout class can kill us in a few seconds. Wizards if AA spec'd and geared right can be harder to kill than a tank in PVP this needs addressing also.Enoe i notice you mention HP parses and neglect to address Damage parses very convenient an abvoius deflection from the truth, SK's dont need to wear heal proc gear to have insanely high HP parses, other tanks besides zerkers perhaps wear heal proc items, though the majority of tanks i know all wear dps procs. necro is a fun class to play however Acellerated Decay combined with Lich, reduces our effectiveness in pvp greatly due to the hp loss which is way over the top. hp loss maybe part of the class but as it stands it is grossly unfair to necros to lose so much hps whilst having both these buffs on by the time they run into battle they are 1/2 dead if no healer.it is a sad state of affairs for mage classes, especially summoners, BG's are filling with more and more with tanks and scout classes with less and less mage classes. only the mages that are attached to their class keep on playing them.adding 15% spell damage all round will only make SK's more OP, the increase in spell damage should only apply to mage classes,(this increase in spell damage for mage classes also need to apply to PVE). we all know what the PVE parse for SK's looks like, im not going to get started.kk ive had my gripe, im sure the flamers are drooling have fun edited in italic

Valind

05-09-2010, 06:47 AM

<cite>anamii wrote:</cite><blockquote>/2 beserkers can also have this ability, whilst fine for pve these reborn abilities have no fair place in pvp as they already have a huge advantage mitigation, dps and self healing.</blockquote>Berserkers do not have 6 death saves. Neither do SKs or any other tank for that matter. If you're going to go making wild accusations, atleast look into it before you start foaming at the mouth.Berserkers have 2 death prevention abilities. The first one is called Vision of Madness and is all but useless for most things. It prevents your death and heals you for 2.5% of your health... a VERY tiny amount and just enough to stop your death once, only to die to the double-attack or proc from the main swing that would have killed you anyways. The second ability is a shared one that guardians also get. It is called Unyielding Will. It will trigger once, heal you for 46%, and then it will kill you 36 seconds later anyways (AAs can prevent the follow up death *IF* you are berserk at the time, or *IF* you are a guardian).Posts like this from players who are clearly uninformed and have no idea hwo to play their classes really annoy me, because its rubbish like this that ends up seeing classes nerfed. It was bad enough with the sore losers on Nagafen calling for nerfs, add a few thousand bluebies and its beyond a joke.

Enoe

05-09-2010, 07:35 AM

i have seen part of this discussion on nagy q side last evening. I had a laugh then and i have it still.anamii is one of the best informed , best skilled and expirienced pvpers so plz consider his thoughts seriously!!!1. He is claiming PLATE armor gives tanks unreasonable advantage over MAGE classes cause of it INSANE resist amont. rolf in rl2. Sk has 6 death saves lol again - only 3 my good man and only in grp of 3+ (every proc of it will hurt his grp members and if it will kill whole grp if sk will die time by time really fast. Other thing is Bloodletter can be dispelled and from my expirience im running w/o it 90% of time.3. Resists were broken big time b4 SF. Now they works ok - checked it on my necro and i love it.4. Most OP of tank ability is using bow.... ouch. I agree it is usefull but i bet while snared /rooted tanks should just stand there and beg for mercy or watch their hp going down? My bad next time i go to bg i will unequip bow to make things more balanced... /sic!5. Tanks sometimes top HPS parses when - they have no healer, their healer sux, and 75% of tanks heal comes from procs not even class abilities. (well dont know about zerker new one tho) Remmember if tank is using heal proc gear he cant use dmg gear in same slot.6. Tanks (zerks/sks) do top dps parses when - dps classes from their grp/raid sux or u have big long carnage where aoe tanks can make some really good numbers.

monrofayy

05-10-2010, 11:12 AM

i play nothing but a conjuror in BG i can understand , we wear toilet freaknig paper for armor lolevery one just ignores are pet thats the first main issue !! since it is pretty much the other half of us!which could go both ways " they ignore pets and just kill us" or they "forget about pet come to kill usand pet nails there butt" once people close the gap and there in our face it's prettty much jsut that it's game over !! because we can't take the hits !! make matters worse most of us can't run away or get distanceshould be a way to merge caster+pet , most conj's spells at best do 1/5th there damage most of the time just a distraction buy pet time to sneak up and pop there heads offother guy ain't kiddin about resists thats for sure

TuinalOfTheNexus

05-10-2010, 12:25 PM

Although the original post is inaccurate, it amazes me any player would argue that SK vs summoner is balanced.Looking at it as simply as possible, an SK has ~15khp, 3 full heal death saves, and can heal fairly substantially. They wear plate, so have ~70% reduction to all incoming damage.A summoner has ~12khp and (if conj) 3 stoneskins. Their healing is negligible; in the case of a Conjuror they have few healing abilities, and a Necros healing is offset by their life drain from Lich. They wear cloth, so have ~70% mit to spell damage and ~30% mit to physical.So if we consider a versus situation; the summoner should have enough dps to burn through about 80khp with 70% resists in the time it takes an SK to burn through 12khp and 3 stoneskins with 50% resists (averaging the physical and spell damage); if not slightly more, since the SK has the utility of taunts. In reality both classes have almost identical DPS output.That's flat out broken. If anyone can honestly say you've found a summoner to be a difficult opponent in a battleground you're probably a bad player. As melee, sorc, or healer, I can steamroller them without trying, since they're the squishiest class, have no spike damage, and in the case of a Necro rely heavily on dots which do a fraction of their PvE damage since they can be cured.To be honest, with the ridiculous imbalance and gameplay in BGs and cack-handed blanket nerf to mage dps I'm beginning to suspect there's an actual sinister agenda from SoE and they benefit in some way from ludicrous imbalance. Maybe they're selling SKs on the marketplace, or gradually phasing out the summoner classes to save development time... at least with a Wizard, Fury, Assassin, and Zerker I can leave my Necro firmly on the shelf (where she's been for about 12 months now).

Gaige

05-10-2010, 01:37 PM

Newsflash: Classes haven't been balanced for six years, what makes you think they're going to change it now. If anything they'll overnerf a few classes making them useless while ramping up a few classes into godmode, because that is what they do.Also bows are 35m range, not 50.

Banditman

05-10-2010, 01:44 PM

That's pretty much the main problem with BG right now. Classes with any sort of "armor" . . . chain or plate, have a marked advantage. "Magic" resists are even across the board, but Mage classes, especially Enchanters and Summoners, have a huge problem with surviveability. I know, get Toughness gear, right? Wrong. Toughness is available to everyone. That doesn't address the base disparity.What's worse, the melee classes can do their damage "on the move". Casting classes MUST remain still for the entire duration of their spell cast to do ANY damage. We're told "Keep your target at range" . . . well, great, we'd love to. Our roots break on damage, or wear off LONG before we can kill our targets. Same for snare. Even at range, these melee classes have bows that are still quite damaging to a cloth wearing Mage. Let alone if you run into a Ranger, who does his best damage from range, or an Assassin who can simply Shadow Step to you.It's totally asinine that a melee class can just run in circles around you spamming his "spells", interrupting, knocking down, knocking back, stunning . . . all things that prevent a caster doing ANY DAMAGE WHATSOEVER. Make these melee classes stand still to do ANY damage, and you'll see a marked difference.Better yet, let casters cast while moving . . . then the arguement "keep them at range" will be valid. Until then, not so much.

Grumble69

05-10-2010, 02:36 PM

There's a lot of issues getting mixed up in this thread. Do summoners need a little help? Possibly. Do mages as a whole need help? Hell no.A lot of folks are quitting the mage class in BG for no good reason. They're just bandwagoners. When you've got a good group where the tank is taunting and the healers are healing, the mage plays a very important role. It adds depth to the BG strategy. When I'm fighting a good group, I usually can't focus on the caster ("Oh, there's an easy mark") and take them out first.The crux of the mage's woes are PUGs. If you've got a random group make-up and everyone is not skilled on their role, the survivability of a mage is low. So they QQ and pull out their SK instead. Because even if it's a bad PUG, at least they're not facedown as often with a tank. But it doesn't make their group any better. A well-balanced group is much better than a tank-heavy-bandwagon. In fact, if you look at the really good groups that own Gears, there's a mage or two in their groups.

Draag

05-10-2010, 07:04 PM

Just the other day, some people were making a pre-made on my server for Klak...They were just DIEING to get a necromancer in their group. Of course, like always, all the necromancers were busy raiding and grouping because they are so in demand -- they just couldnt fill that oh-so-important necromancer slot./sarcasm *OFF*

Alienor

05-11-2010, 05:05 AM

My mages are more busy with buffing and just watching the revive timer than actually playing. As soon as some metal wearer reaches melee range I am dead. Then again, it might just me sucking. Enjoyable bg matches I can count on one hand so far, mostly I would like just to go afk and wait till it is over.

Slaspen

05-11-2010, 08:20 AM

Not sure what BG the op is playing, but tanks are easy as hell to kill as a mage...Edit: I would say that 99% of ALL bg PLAYERS (no matter what class) are easy as hell to drop.

TuinalOfTheNexus

05-11-2010, 11:02 AM

OP is referring to Summoners, not Mages, huge difference there.A Sorc can drop any (solo) tank pretty easily since they have ~5k physical mit and 2k in self-wards, 250 reduction to all damage, a 10khp+ manashield, 2 stackable roots, and in the case of a Wizard an unbreakable snare, or in the case of a Warlock a fast casting port, meaning incoming bow damage is negligible, range is easy to maintain, and their DPS comes in big hits reducing the ward procs etc. on the tank and since a large chunk is direct damage, cannot be cured.A Summoner, by comparison, has about ~3k mit, no self wards, no damage reduction, and is much more vulnerable to bow damage. Their DPS comes in lots of small hits, and particularly in the case of Necromancers curable DoTs, meaning they proc wards and other reactive heals on the tank substantially as well as breaking their own roots (I know as a Zerker undead tide and swarm dumbfires heal rather than damage me).It's true that in when grouped with 5 good, coordinated players a summoner can do decent PvP DPS. But so could any other class, and if they were a Rogue, Predator, or Sorcerer, they'd do a lot more. Furthermore, a lot of that DPS is AE damage which parses high but is easily healed and often insignificant - what decides a PvP battle is high, single target burst DPS, and even lifeburn is laughable in that respect. You can stick AEs on a group for hours and parse high but all you're doing at the end of the day is slightly inconveniencing the healer, unless you're a well-geared Sorcerer and can spike that AE damage enough to start killing people. Similarly, sending a pet across the map to damage people means a summoner can parse high by effectively being in combat the whole match, but again they're simply presenting a minor annoyance rather than getting meaningful and decisive kills.I'd agree with Gaige, who iirc whined about Brawlers for about 2 1/2 years before giving up, that SoE are unlikely to fix this, but I think Summoners at least have another 6 months of whining time left before they roll Warlocks.

Zacarus

05-12-2010, 01:55 AM

Just want to give a quick shout out to summoners ... thank you for helping me get updates on my bg quests. <3

Sapphy

05-12-2010, 03:57 PM

It seems like illusionists and summoners are really in the same boat from reading this post- both have been nerfed dramatically in sentinel's fate pvp and for similar reasons, the combination of being one of the squishiest classes + easily accessible and prolonged crowd control immunities and abilities + shortened crowd control times + high spell resistability + overall spell damage nerf + little other defensive options aside from temporary targetting distractions (short range teleports/clear targets/interrupts) can not bode well for either class against equally geared and skilled opponents, unless they are with some really amazing healers and tanks, or against opponents who are unfamiliar with the matchup. Illusionist dps and range atm are even worse than summoners, a weakness that is usually made up for in pvp by our increased ability to crowd control.... except that all of our core moves are counterable by easy to find items and class specific abilities.

Valdar

05-12-2010, 04:36 PM

The class balance for pvp has gone out the window ages ago, but seems worse then ever atm.Don't even bother complaining about it and just roll an SK and have some fun.People playing a fully geared SK that think that their class is even remotely balanced need a reality check. So omg an SK has only 3 deathsaves and not 6...... That means 60-75k health to burn through + the SK's heals from his abilities + the 100% parry/riposte + DA + the immunity to CC + all his heals and wards that proc from his gear while swinging a weapon that autoattacks for 2k(?) and has some pretty decent dps from ca's and spells fighting a squishy that can't heal, can't cast on the move and has a whopping 15k health.Everyone crying about casters oneshotting people just had to experience pvp as a caster for 3 months, and omg the whining was deafening. It's back to business as usual though, so roll out that SK and join the fun...

darcain

05-12-2010, 09:41 PM

ok i'm have a 85 conj has any other conj notis if you go after a wiz /warloc you are not able to do any damage even your eb does 0 damage

Amanathia

05-12-2010, 10:12 PM

Yeah... on my 84 conjurer (and on this char) (who both have like the worst gear possible, going to fix that soon, aha)....before the spell damage nerf i would get insta gibbed myself (no worries, my gear is horrid lol), but I could hurt people a little, my mage pet was gnarly, and elemental blast really ripped people up (was op imho...needed nerfed, but it didn't need to made useless). After the spell damage "fix" i can't even bring most people below 95% lol. Even elemental blast, which should be a massive attack, does maybe 10% of someone's life, if it even lands. Even in my horrible gear I can usually kill most other summoners though, kinda funny!I'm totally fine with being absolutely destroyed by assassins and rogues, and I just laugh about it when I die, but it is kinda borked how little damage our spells do now. And the mage pet went from really being able to hurt people to....well....yeah. It won't even out damage people's regen anymore. I mean, who cares you know, they are going to make it so that you can just pvp on an alt and give your main the tokens, so everyone will just roll an SK (or pally or ranger I guess) alt, but it'd make things more fun if there was some semblance of balance.

monrofayy

05-13-2010, 02:42 AM

[Removed for Content] BS now for a caster my lvl 90 has a complete set of the player made BG gear it helps a little tiny bit but not by much im still getting one shotted by every [Removed for Content] class except illu/coer but thats about battle starts 5 sec later im waiting to re-spawn ,3 sec later im waiting to re-spawn again, in another battle im going toe to toe with berserker trying every fuggerang trick in the book keep him at a distance root/ snare/dot, stun just resist after resist * master spells* aa 30+ to non-resisting still getting resisted nuking while im trying to keep distance ! forget the pet he ain't even pay attention to it i get him to 10% and it just stops ???? i unloaded 14k power worth spells on him while he was at 10% hp and it whould not drop any more ?? some fuggerang cleric run's by heals me then casts 1 nuke that takes him out and keeps running along?!?!?! seriously already somthing needs to get fixed here ..

Miyana95

05-14-2010, 06:53 PM

Yep here's some irony. Even though I usually play a necro in BGs, I tend to go after summoners on the other team first because they're so easy to kill...

Blambil

05-14-2010, 07:07 PM

<cite>Phaust@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't even bother complaining about it and just roll an SK and have some fun.</blockquote>He's right.When my healer (who can solo heal most mark zones) loses to the SK in healing...When my summoner (who usually parses #1 in same mark zones) loses to the SK in DPS... I finally realized the truth.. and MY....... GOODNESS...... SK's are fun in PVP.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Amanathia

05-15-2010, 04:16 AM

Yea, summoners are horribad in pvp but you know, meh, who cares. Next patch we can just play lvl39 or w/e melee alt and mail ourselves the tokens if we want the gear, so meh. I actually think berserkers are way worse than SKs, but only because of that godly heal ability. Meh.It's not goin to get "fixed" I don't think, but being able to just give the tokens to another char from a lowbie SK/berserker/ranger or w/e will work imho. Least it's better than them nerfing things in PVE because of bgs lol. Only thing I really wish for summoners is that they made the mage pet you know..actually do something to people in pvp again. For a little while, even in mah horrrrrribad gear, it was fairly deadly. You'd think it should be, if you have the master one. Now it won't ever drop a competant player below 95%. lolIt can be kinda fun actually. I like running into groups just to see how fast I die sometimes. The best part is if you run up to someone, attack them while they are afk, get a good 15 seconds of attacks in, unload everything on them, and they drop to maybe 90%. Then they turn around and one shot you. We need to make a video of summoner PVP, because it's so funny.

Trawe

05-15-2010, 05:52 AM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>Newsflash: Classes haven't been balanced for six years, what makes you think they're going to change it now. If anything they'll overnerf a few classes making them useless while ramping up a few classes into godmode, because that is what they do.Also bows are 35m range, not 50.</blockquote>newsflash: there are bows having 50 meter range plus extra 5 metre from ammo ~classes are not that badly unbalanced like some poeple say.

monrofayy

05-15-2010, 02:13 PM

If soe was having a hard time adjusting everything manly because they gotta devote there man power to other areas then i suggest a VOTING system somthing like this !! GM's or people that offer the time can manage minor stuff and in areas that need change voting system comes into place what need to gets top PR ??? just go on from there

Trawe

05-15-2010, 04:58 PM

it´s just a lie. they said they would work on combining ALL servers so they can bg together buttheir no1 priority was to get bg stable first. turned out to be a blatant lie when they announcednext the next GU with its added new bg content.i don´t blame devs or something because i think that they get time schedules from their bosses saying they have toadd this and that within 4 month or something like that but this doesn´t help me as a customer and i justdemand what they advertised for : battlegrounds with all eq2 server.