Carrying A Flag Should Put You In Combat

[snowli]

<p>Simple change to make ganak maps more interesting and tactical, and less about which side has the right class combo flag runners.</p><p>Carrying a flag should put anyone in combat with in combat runspeed.</p>

[avow]

<p>I grabbed the flag and ran as fast as possible using the Sabertooth Totem and my racial fae speedn enhancer and a.a. base speed enhancer and i can get to 100% speed maximum for a few short seconds.  Yet when i run at 100% not carryhing flag i will see flag holders run from one tower to the other tower in a split second. They also hit me with one sword hit or spell and kill me instantly.  How?  I look at the combat chat log and their spells and gear can no way generate the huge numbers or speed the are getting.  What spells or gear allow them to run at 5 to 10 times 100% speed or kill me and others in their way with one hit?  What is is, soe?  Oh, I'm almost wearing full BG gear and it's like tissue paper to those guys. </p><p>You are not in control of this game and if wearing full BG gear is useless then you go play your own game because it is a waste of time for me. </p>

[Cerulien]

<p>Slowing down the runner so that the entire raid can pile up on him/her makes it more tactical?  Please.  Just learn to deal with runspeed classes.  Here's a hint...talk to your local tinkerer.</p><p>Just played a great Ganak match decided on points after one where the other side couldnt figure out how to deal with fast runners.  Lot's of variety in the matches as it is...doesn't need to be changed.</p>

[Tehom]

<p>I think it's more a matter of ease. When the challenger armor comes in, players in the level 90 battlegrounds will see a massive increase in survivability. I don't think stopping a flag snatcher with high runspeed will really happen in those circumstances without massive concentrated force, so it'll probably mean a lot more Ganaks go to time as both flags are kept in the enemy bases and more or less impregnable. I dunno if anyone would really enjoy that becoming pretty standard.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p><cite>Morrissee@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Slowing down the runner so that the entire raid can pile up on him/her makes it more tactical?  Please.</p></blockquote><p>Of course it would.</p><p>As it stands these flag runners don't even utilize their OWN team to move the flag.  They go to 500% runspeed and fly across the map solo.  I guess to you this is "tactical".  If picking up the flag put the person in combat then BOTH teams would have to move and battle across the map in order to earn the points for planting the flag.  But again, apparently to you that wouldn't be "tactical".</p><p>Anyway, you are obviously one of these flag runners and are [Removed for Content] at the idea of actually having to, you know, use some sort of strategy to win a Ganak.  I don't know what to tell ya except.. "Please".</p>

[Krinta]

<p>Indeed, meny of times I see a lone player running the flag none stop with people after him. While I dont think they should be thrown into combat, I do how ever think there should be a slowing effect on the flag.</p><p>Something like 50% of there normal run speed... Meaning a bard with 100% run speed would only run at 50% speed. And spells like Wind Walk, and the druid run speed one dont take effect while a player is holding the flag.</p><p>Sprint is fine tho IMO... it drains power so if they want to run faster... they lose power....</p><p>Also... while were talking about the flag and all... how about a debuff placed on the player after they hold the flag for so long.... 3 mins with the flag they take 20% more dmg, and use 20% more power.... 10 mins... they take 50% more dmg and use 50% more power.... Am so sick of games lasting tell time runs out just for the fact both teams turtle with the flags while one or two on each team try and get the flag back...</p>

[Katanalla]

<p>For suggestion: Make the flag cast stacking debuff on wearer. Like every 5 seconds carrier will have mit/resists debuffed by 5%.</p><p>Alternate idea already in place: some classes can snare over 60% run speed, have people use their snares and stop wondering why people run so fast.</p>

[Uskeab]

<p>basically which ever teams get more/better healers win?</p>

[dr4gonUK]

<p>So many terrible suggestions in one thread.</p><p>Theres nothing wrong with how it is. Youre all just subjective as hell.</p>

[Seiffil]

<p><cite>Katanallama@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>For suggestion: Make the flag cast stacking debuff on wearer. Like every 5 seconds carrier will have mit/resists debuffed by 5%.</p><p>Alternate idea already in place: some classes can snare over 60% run speed, have people use their snares and stop wondering why people run so fast.</p></blockquote><p>Uh, you seem to forget the obvious issue with just about every snare in game.  They tend to break fairly quickly when target receives a hostile action, it's generally 5-10% and usually with the number of procs, and other people who might be fighting it's pretty much gone within a second or two.</p><p>Fettering poisons are the main ones that don't break on combat, but it's a random proc, and you have to hope it procs before they get out of range.</p><p>The flags don't need a stacking debuff though.  Honestly in most Ganak matches I've been in, the bigger issue is no one puts enough emphasis on defending.  You have one person staying back to guard the flag, chances are they won't be able to stop everyone who comes through.  The problem is too many people treat Ganak as a death match as opposed to CTF.  I had a Ganak match the other day where everyone except for like 2 people were fighting out in a big mass melee in the middle.  For what reason who knows, but even when the other team grabbed the flag, no one bothered to try to stop them.</p>

[Megavolt]

<p>I also think grabbing the flag should put you in combat. Since it puts people in combat who attempt to snare the carrier, it only seems fair.</p>

[Tehom]

<p><cite>Krinta@The Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also... while were talking about the flag and all... how about a debuff placed on the player after they hold the flag for so long.... 3 mins with the flag they take 20% more dmg, and use 20% more power.... 10 mins... they take 50% more dmg and use 50% more power.... Am so sick of games lasting tell time runs out just for the fact both teams turtle with the flags while one or two on each team try and get the flag back...</p></blockquote><p>It may actually be a better idea to have the flag debuff the survivability of the entire team raidwide over time. While the flag carrier becoming more likely to be killed would help a little, it'd make it a little arbitrary assuming both flags are picked up fairly quickly which will die first. I think the entire team becoming easier to kill while having their offense be unimpeded would greatly reduce standoffs, however.</p>

[Shankapotomus]

<p>How about we leave it the way it is...</p><p>I'm a froglok fury, and  found out how to run at 100% run speed at all times (cept when engaged). These games are supposed to be more about tactical strategies and less about whether or not one person should be able to take on a x2.</p><p>Does it seem fair that someone can run at 100% run speed while you carry the flag at 0%? That means you could kill the probably about 3 times and they would still be back attacking you as you turned the flag in.</p><p>How about this, classes play their classes. How many classes don't have a detrimental to slow down or disorient an opponent? Also if you throw a couple skills at him on his way, he'll most likely have to throw up a heal or something, there for putting him in combat...</p><p>Or maybe play some better defence and stop him before he gets the flag?</p><p>There are so many things you can do to prevent this from being a major issue, but the only solution we can come up with is change game mechanics?...</p>

[snowli]

<p>I'm sorry but the arguments against only seem the same as keeping beserkers healing for millions of hitpoints, keeping some classes 1 shotting other players. "It benefits me" isn't a good argument basis for balancing pvp, does it benefit the game as a whole, answer no: it sucks for nearly everyone.</p><p>Attacking someone running with a flag puts you at 0% runspeed and leaves them still with massive runspeed, it's wrong, it might be liked by the classes that can have massive runspeed - but it's unbalanced and deserves the nerfbat every iota as much as for example clerics healing the entire group for infinite triggers with Divine Guidance for 20 seconds in pvp did.</p><p>Max speed flag runners is unbalanced, and needs to be changed, so that ganak is about team victory, and less about which classes got assigned to your side.</p>

[Masuma]

<p>being in combat when you carry the flag is stupid and destroys the game, making only one tactic possible:</p><p>A big force has to go and protect the person with the flag. There wouldnt be much strategy to it anymore.</p>

[Valdar]

<p>You can root, snare, mez or stun a flagcarrier and burn him down.What's the problem?</p>

[TheSpin]

<p>I have somewhat mixed feelings on flag carrier runspeed.  Honestly on my inquisitor I've always been able to slow down the fast guys and keep them from solo snatching the flag. I have one root and a fear.  I actually feel the whole thing is overpowered when I play my brigand and do it myself, heh.</p><p>I am definately 120% against any kind of non runspeed detrimental being placed on the flag carrier.  It's not like the hold the relic game.  It's capture the flag and if both teams have the flag then it's up to the better team to recapture their own flag.</p>

[Killque]

<p>My Dirge runs 98% without any non standard gear. Throw on jboots or bog strut or something simple and I am at 100%.</p><p>I can run into the flag area grab the flag and be almost out before the other people standing RIGHT THERE at the flag even knows what happens. Its hilarious really. If I am engaged they are in combat and I am not, so unless they hit me with a looong stun, or a root or huge snare (does happen and then im screwed), I am home free.</p><p>While it will sadden me that I cannot snag the flag in this manner I agree it is broken and needs to be fixed. I made this suggestion in several other threads, the flag bearer needs to be put into combat and a lot will be fixed.</p>

[Trynt]

<p><cite>Killque wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My Dirge runs 98% without any non standard gear. Throw on jboots or bog strut or something simple and I am at 100%.</p><p>I can run into the flag area grab the flag and be almost out <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>before the other people standing RIGHT THERE at the flag even knows what happens</strong></span>. Its hilarious really. If I am engaged they are in combat and I am not, so unless they hit me with a looong stun, or a root or huge snare (does happen and then im screwed), I am home free.</p><p>While it will sadden me that I cannot snag the flag in this manner I agree it is broken and needs to be fixed. I made this suggestion in several other threads, the flag bearer needs to be put into combat and a lot will be fixed.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>This</strong></span> is what's to blame.</p><p>- You can be tracked well before you even get into the base, if people bother.</p><p>- You can be targeted well before you even get into the base, if people bother.</p><p>- You can be engaged, snared, mez'd, rooted, etc... before you even land on the ground, if people bother.</p><p>Players need to adjust to the tactics of each enemy.  The game shouldn't do it for them.</p>

[Valdar]

<p><cite>Killque wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My Dirge runs 98% without any non standard gear. Throw on jboots or bog strut or something simple and I am at 100%.</p><p>I can run into the flag area grab the flag and be almost out before the other people standing RIGHT THERE at the flag even knows what happens. Its hilarious really. If I am engaged they are in combat and I am not, so unless they hit me with a looong stun, or a root or huge snare (does happen and then im screwed), I am home free.</p><p>While it will sadden me that I cannot snag the flag in this manner I agree it is broken and needs to be fixed. I made this suggestion in several other threads, the flag bearer needs to be put into combat and a lot will be fixed.</p></blockquote><p>That's because the people defending are usually the wrong classes in the wrong place, slacking and not paying attention or just not using the correct skills to stop the flagninja's.</p><p>A decent brigand / enchanter or bard duo should be able to stop any runners.</p>

[Uskeab]

<p>people that run in fast to grab the flag, if properly positioned and paying attention, its easy to spot them before they get inside and to target/cc them, no matter their speed.</p>

[Thinwizzy]

<p>They should make it so the enemy cannot turn in your flag if you have possession of theirs.  That way it doesnt matter how fast anyone runs.</p>

[Valdar]

<p><cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They should make it so the enemy cannot turn in your flag if you have possession of theirs.  That way it doesnt matter how fast anyone runs.</p></blockquote><p>That would be a massive change!</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Shalin@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>being in combat when you carry the flag is stupid and destroys the game, making only one tactic possible:</p><p>A big force has to go and protect the person with the flag. There wouldnt be much strategy to it anymore.</p></blockquote><p>I disagree,  it still places those with high in combat run speed at an advantage, and it requires some coordination where the current system requires little to none.</p><p>Unless in your opinion a big force is 2-3 players.</p>

[Thinwizzy]

<p><cite>Phaust@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They should make it so the enemy cannot turn in your flag if you have possession of theirs.  That way it doesnt matter how fast anyone runs.</p></blockquote><p>That would be a massive change!</p></blockquote><p>You're right, it is probably to much to ask for.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Phaust@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They should make it so the enemy cannot turn in your flag if you have possession of theirs.  That way it doesnt matter how fast anyone runs.</p></blockquote><p>That would be a massive change!</p></blockquote><p>You're right, it is probably to much to ask for.</p></blockquote><p>While ha-ha....</p><p>I would prefer if you could pick up your own flag.  Basically requiring the other team to kill a player to take it.  You could restrict it to keeping it in the base if it makes you feel better.</p><p>Capture the flag games are based upon the need to kill those guarding the flag and/or distract/trick them into leaving it ungaurded.</p><p>The implementation of the eq2 CoF game does not allow for effective defense of the flag due to short term control immunities coupled with high runspeeds.</p><p>However, If someone guarding the flag is able to pick it up and require you to kill them to take it, I feel it better encapsulates the spirit of capture the flag scenarios.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Obviously, if you, as a flag runner, use an ability, you should be put in combat.  If that isn't happening, it needs to.</p><p>Secondarily, if you, as a flag runner, have a "beneficial" ability used on you that would put the user in combat, it should put you in combat as well.  For example, if a priest tosses you a heal, you're in combat.</p><p>Problem solved.</p>

[Aule]

<p>As a Sarnak bruiser, the only thing that can stop me once I get near the flag is a snare. 35s 100% run speed 30s control effects immunity (all but snare) 3 hit magical stoneskin (> 10% health) 1 hit physical stoneskin (> 25% health) 100% heal 12s 100% parry 10s 100% dodge with recurring heal None of these put me into combat. I can put the run speed and control immunity on prior to jumping in to get the flag and still make it back to my flag position before they run out. So the only way to stop me from getting off with your flag is if someone is handy with a snare, and it needs to be a good one (like 80%) and backed up with a lotta dps. Otherwise it'll expire and I'll keep on trucking. edit: I miss my lost Sarnak 25% snare mitigation every time I play Ganak.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p>lol @ snares.  I play a fully mastered raid geared ranger in these things and I have snare tricks out the whazoo and they rarely work.  I will tell you what happens:</p><p>I hang in the middle and see soandso has picked up my flag, so I move closer my base and watch the map for where the person is coming out.  They usually hop out of the top floor, so I shoot them with snaring shot.. which is like a 85% snare that has a 10% chance to break on damage.  It's either parried, deflected, flashes a big "IMMUNE" message, or lands for 1 second and is broken by a hostile effect from someone else.  Since the person is still running at 1000% runspeed they are already at me by now.  I hit immobilizing lunge and it flashes a big "IMMUNE" message.  I follow this up with hook arrow and 1 of 3 things happen:  1.)  >50% of the time the CA simply fails for no apparent reason, I get the message "you fail to hook your opponent" or 2.)  assuming hook arrow works, I use cheap shot (point blank shot is far too slow casting in this situation) and see a big "IMMUNE" message or they are stunned for .5 seconds because soe felt the need to nerf the hell out of this ability, OR 3.)  the CA fails entirely because the person is out of range by the time it finishes casting (because eventhough I am doing all this crap to them they're STILL running at 1000% runspeed).  My last ditch attempt is a running rear shot (also 85% snare) that, like snaring shot, is either parried, deflected, flashes "IMMUNE", or is broken by some other hostile effect.  Through all of this you think I might be able to just burn the flag runner down, right?  It depends.  Most flag runners I can do severe damage to, but I can rarely finish them off because my attacks immediately put me at 0% runspeed while their insane runspeed puts them out of range before my next autoattack fires (only 2 ranged CAs work on the run).</p><p>The bottom line is there are way too many immunities and drawbacks to snare effects to make any of this stuff feasible, especially with the ridiculous runspeed so many classes can get.  I mean I've even played my conjuror in the BGs and that class has access to Winds of Velious, which is probably the best snare effect in the game and even THAT does nothing most of the time.  Like a handful of people have been saying, picking up the flag needs to put that person into combat so their speed buffs are cancelled BUT.. I would also settle for an attack putting that person into combat.  If I can at least stick an arrow in them to cancel their speed buffs then I'm positive I can burn them down.</p>

[Tehom]

<p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As a Sarnak bruiser, the only thing that can stop me once I get near the flag is a snare. 35s 100% run speed 30s control effects immunity (all but snare) 3 hit magical stoneskin (> 10% health) 1 hit physical stoneskin (> 25% health) 100% heal 12s 100% parry 10s 100% dodge with recurring heal None of these put me into combat. I can put the run speed and control immunity on prior to jumping in to get the flag and still make it back to my flag position before they run out. So the only way to stop me from getting off with your flag is if someone is handy with a snare, and it needs to be a good one (like 80%) and backed up with a lotta dps. Otherwise it'll expire and I'll keep on trucking. edit: I miss my lost Sarnak 25% snare mitigation every time I play Ganak.</p></blockquote><p>Which means if you're with a warden with nature walk you're effectively unstoppable, yeah. The situation will become more pronounced with the survivability increases we'll see with the coming season. While I don't think the tactic is an instant-win or anything, I -do- think that the extreme difficulty in stopping competent flag-snatchers will result in both sides grabbing flags and then it just being a turtle exercise or deathmatch until the clock runs out. I favor survivability debuffs for teams holding flags just so matches don't always go to time. Thinking about it, combining the ability of your own team to pick up your flag to prevent snatching with the drawback of a substantial debuff for doing so could open up additional strategic avenues.</p><p>I kind of feel that people who talk about stopping flag-snatchers have never really run into strong players doing it, or only play in 80-89 BGs where people are made of tissue paper.</p>

[Seiffil]

<p><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>lol @ snares.  I play a fully mastered raid geared ranger in these things and I have snare tricks out the whazoo and they rarely work.  I will tell you what happens:</p><p>I hang in the middle and see soandso has picked up my flag, so I move closer my base and watch the map for where the person is coming out.  They usually hop out of the top floor, so I shoot them with snaring shot.. which is like a 85% snare that has a 10% chance to break on damage.  It's either parried, deflected, flashes a big "IMMUNE" message, or lands for 1 second and is broken by a hostile effect from someone else.  Since the person is still running at 1000% runspeed they are already at me by now.  I hit immobilizing lunge and it flashes a big "IMMUNE" message.  I follow this up with hook arrow and 1 of 3 things happen:  1.)  >50% of the time the CA simply fails for no apparent reason, I get the message "you fail to hook your opponent" or 2.)  assuming hook arrow works, I use cheap shot (point blank shot is far too slow casting in this situation) and see a big "IMMUNE" message or they are stunned for .5 seconds because soe felt the need to nerf the hell out of this ability, OR 3.)  the CA fails entirely because the person is out of range by the time it finishes casting (because eventhough I am doing all this crap to them they're STILL running at 1000% runspeed).  My last ditch attempt is a running rear shot (also 85% snare) that, like snaring shot, is either parried, deflected, flashes "IMMUNE", or is broken by some other hostile effect.  Through all of this you think I might be able to just burn the flag runner down, right?  It depends.  Most flag runners I can do severe damage to, but I can rarely finish them off because my attacks immediately put me at 0% runspeed while their insane runspeed puts them out of range before my next autoattack fires (only 2 ranged CAs work on the run).</p><p>The bottom line is there are way too many immunities and drawbacks to snare effects to make any of this stuff feasible, especially with the ridiculous runspeed so many classes can get.  I mean I've even played my conjuror in the BGs and that class has access to Winds of Velious, which is probably the best snare effect in the game and even THAT does nothing most of the time.  Like a handful of people have been saying, picking up the flag needs to put that person into combat so their speed buffs are cancelled BUT.. I would also settle for an attack putting that person into combat.  If I can at least stick an arrow in them to cancel their speed buffs then I'm positive I can burn them down.</p></blockquote><p>This is pretty much spot on, about the only players with 100% runspeed who I can kill without too many problems are the bards who run in by themselves and I can get them targeted and attacking before they even get to the flag.  Most fighters, not going to happen. Look at how long it can 3,4, or 5 people alone to take down some fighter classes.  Either just because they have high mitigation, they have abilities that can heal them, and that's potentially even without having a healer around.</p><p>As you said, snare breaks far too often.  And once it breaks unless they've used a combat ability, a cure, a heal, they're back at 100% and you're sitting at 0.</p><p>I don't agree that me hitting someone should necessarily put them into combat, but picking up the flag should from the standpoint of canceling out of combat runspeed buffs.</p><p>For those who spout tactics, sending in one person after another by themselves is not a use of tactics, in most cases it's pure stupidity in any other form of CTF.  Now if you're talking about sending in a group to keep everyone around the flag occupied, and then send the one sure, that could be construed as use of tactics, but that doesn't generally happen, by far it's usually one fighter class with boosted runspeed, dashing in grabbing flag, and bolting out.</p>

[snowli]

<p>It is also worth remembering every class has access to multiple control immunities and runspeeds, far fewer people have the abilities to stand a chance of even temporarily slowing down flag runners (if they aren't immune).</p><p>I'd concede that any casting or incoming hostile action while carrying a flag then putting the flag bearer in combat might be a compromise.</p>

[Brynhild]

<p>The simplest solution is always the best answer.</p><p>Take their flag first.  Who cares if they get your flag if you have theirs? Keep your whole raid in the middle, or in their base until you got your flag back.</p><p>Don't bother defending your flag, just go straight for theirs with your entire raid, take the flag, then walk back to your base and kill the person who picked up you flag on the way back with your entire raid next to you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Works every time.</p><p>#1 problem = getting people to stay together so you can do this</p>

[Blaidd]

<p>With the recent resist changes most of the time my snares or roots are resisted outright. As a Warlock I only get 1 chance due to slow casting spells or a brig I chase after casting snares and watch them fail most of the time and thats not even counting the immunities so common now.</p><p>Something needs to be done even if its just a suspension of immunities within the bases.</p>

[Shorcon]

<p><cite>Shalin@Runnyeye wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>being in combat when you carry the flag is stupid and destroys the game, making only one tactic possible:</p><p>A big force has to go and protect the person with the flag. There wouldnt be much strategy to it anymore.</p></blockquote><p>Wrong. That's were the strategy would finaly begin.</p>

[Shorcon]

<p><cite>Phaust@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You can root, snare, mez or stun a flagcarrier and burn him down.What's the problem?</p></blockquote><p>There are so many defenses to this that its a mute point. We get that we can do all these things. We also get that these things are constantly resisted/imune etc. Very rarely do you have a solid team that can force a 100% runspeed into getting stuffed. My suggestion is put them in combat when they get engaged by the enemy. If they can avoid anyone hitting them then they deserve to have 100% runspeed. If they cant then they should have to sprint out or get owned.</p><p>There is no skill to FC for many of these classes. Many of them have imunity to all of the above. Many use action/mind pots and are imune that way. It takes no skill to cast a pot and run. Runspeed does need to be changed in some way with the FC.</p><p>I like how the support for no change is posted by classes that have the runspeed advantage.</p><p>I dont think you should strip runspeed from a FC not in combat. I do think you should strip it when they are engaged by the enemy. Not the other way around.</p>

[LardLord]

<p>There's room for improvement in this scenario for sure.  I really like the idea of allowing players to hold their own flag.</p>

[Uskeab]

<p>Ok how about no incombat speed, everyone runs at their full % all the time, in combat. problem solved.....</p><p>.................................................. .................................................. ...............................................</p>

[Putyo]

<p>Something needs to be done, it is stupid the way to win ganak is to stack run speed and avoid all pvp.</p><p>seeing brawlers get it everytime is pretty pathetic</p><p>It would be nice if the flag did damage similiar to relic, this would stop people from just hiding with the flag as well.</p>

[Masuma]

<p>I said it before: i dont want the flag carrier to be slower.</p><p>But: Could mage dispel magic get a better range so we get a chance of dispelling a 2nd time when the first time got resisted (and the person with the flag got away)?</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There's room for improvement in this scenario for sure.  I really like the idea of allowing players to hold their own flag.</p></blockquote><p>The more I think about it, this is the absolute best option.  It allows for a true 'defense' of your flag.</p><p>It could drop if you leave your base with it, or even leave the dias the flag is on, but some means of truely defending it (like being able to hold it) is the best sollution to the map without jacking with in/out of combat and runspeeds.</p>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<p>There's also the issue of gnomish stilts and fae fall in BGs (and perhaps PvP in general, though they've been a feature there so long it's probably a lost cause).</p><p>I don't see how either of these enhance the gameplay. What I do see is how anyone with them (including myself, especially as a tank) can basically run in the enemy base, grab the flag easily while immunities are up, then make myself completely unkillable by jumping around my own base (e.g. on the roof above the capture point). The same goes for Smugglers, in which you'd presume the bridges should act as choke points, but this is never the case.</p><p>Ganak is definitely the worst BG in terms of gameplay; Gears is at least generally an honest if unbalanced 6v6 fight, and although Smugglers isn't really built around choke points as it should be, and there's way too much running in circles, it's not possible for a solo player to pointlessly drag a match out to 20 mins as the case with Ganak.</p><p>If they intend fae falling and stilt jumps to be features of the game then the levels should be designed with these abilities in mind. It feels too much like the designers have no clue about them and design the level geometry as if they don't exist.</p>

[Thinwizzy]

<p>Jump boots, slow falls and other items do not hurt gameplay.  Everyone can use them.  If someone does not choose to use them, or cannot learn how to fight against them, then why should we cater to those people?</p><p>If there is one thing we should have learned over the last few years, it is that restricting freedoms and choices in the game DOES NOT make the game better, it in fact makes it worse.</p><p>Learn to adapt.</p>

[Tehom]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There's room for improvement in this scenario for sure.  I really like the idea of allowing players to hold their own flag.</p></blockquote><p>The more I think about it, this is the absolute best option.  It allows for a true 'defense' of your flag.</p><p>It could drop if you leave your base with it, or even leave the dias the flag is on, but some means of truely defending it (like being able to hold it) is the best sollution to the map without jacking with in/out of combat and runspeeds.</p></blockquote><p>I think you're probably right. My only real worry with this solution is that player survivability will be so high in level 90 battlegrounds that Ganak will be even more of a turtle-fest than it is now, so some sort of survivability hit to either the flag carrier or their team as a whole might be worthwhile to counteract that.</p>

[Oakum]

<p>I agree with the combat runspeed. As a warden gaurding the flag sometimes, with the fast runners, I get one shot to snare/root them. Then they are out of range and usually, with most players having high resist now, they land only about 1 percent of the time and then last about 3 seconds on average and then the player is off and running with immunity.</p><p>Ganak is not capture the flag, its run the flag, lol. Get enough fast, snare/root immune runners and the game is yours no matter how well the other team works together. The close games end up with both sides having fast runners.</p><p>As far as fighting in the middle goes, that area gives you the most chances to root/snare/stop a flag carrier without PoV issues with spells.</p><p>Put the flag runner in combat will make tactics necessary. Tanks will have to taunt enemies that are attempting to attack the flag carrier, or the healers attempting to heal them. Even as a warden, I often get snared from scout  attacks even with natures walk up for some reason if I grab the flag, plus having a the big green plus by your name automaticaly makes you a prime target so people are looking for you from the start to kill you.</p><p>As far as teh tracking comment goes, racial tracking doesnt work in BG so only scouts can track other players and track doesnt tell you where someone is, just that they are close or far from you.</p><p>There is that one little area that some people of the right race/class/alterate tradeskill can climb too without being seen by anyone and being unattackable even if you know they are there and they can jump down, land on the flag pedastal and be off with only one shot for any defenders attempt to root/snare since they are put in combat and cant keep up with them after they cast it, even though there is a 99 percent chance the root/snare will not land with immuties and high resist rates.  </p><p>Since BG's are not true PVP where you might get a lvl 90 dps scout/crusader/zerker fighting a lvl 70 or 80 gaurdea/scout/mage priest if they cant out run them, I see no reason why, if they dont want to put the flag carrier in combat speed mode, they cant just make it so that if you are attacked you are in combat, same with healed or healing.</p><p>Yes I know I picked the hardest classes to kill/highest dps classes against players of such low lvl that they really cant hurt the high lvl one at all but its for emphasis as to why it makes sense in open world pvp but not as necessary for BG.</p>

[Oakum]

<p><cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There's room for improvement in this scenario for sure.  I really like the idea of allowing players to hold their own flag.</p></blockquote><p>The more I think about it, this is the absolute best option.  It allows for a true 'defense' of your flag.</p><p>It could drop if you leave your base with it, or even leave the dias the flag is on, but some means of truely defending it (like being able to hold it) is the best sollution to the map without jacking with in/out of combat and runspeeds.</p></blockquote><p>I think you're probably right. My only real worry with this solution is that player survivability will be so high in level 90 battlegrounds that Ganak will be even more of a turtle-fest than it is now, so some sort of survivability hit to either the flag carrier or their team as a whole might be worthwhile to counteract that.</p></blockquote><p>But that would mean that people are actually, whats the word I am lookng for, BATTLING the whole time and not running after someone they cant catch casting snares/roots ect that are resisted anyway. What a concept for BATTLEGROUNDS. Of course we could just call Ganak the RUNNINGGROUNDS instead and it would fit 90 percent of the time.</p><p> Make all snares and roots run full duration and be irresistable would fix the problem too. I dont imagine people would like that though since it would affect more then just the flag runner.</p>

[Phygnathus]

<p>The act of picking up the flag should take a bit longer and have a chance to be interrupted by any incoming damage.  It just doesn't seem right for someone to be able to grab the flag with a bunch of people beating on them, then take off at 100% run speed.  On my warden I try to snare & root anyone that gets near the flag, but most of the time they can get the flag picked up and are back out of range before I get more than a single try to get it to land.</p>

[Oakum]

<p><cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As a Sarnak bruiser, the only thing that can stop me once I get near the flag is a snare. 35s 100% run speed 30s control effects immunity (all but snare) 3 hit magical stoneskin (> 10% health) 1 hit physical stoneskin (> 25% health) 100% heal 12s 100% parry 10s 100% dodge with recurring heal None of these put me into combat. I can put the run speed and control immunity on prior to jumping in to get the flag and still make it back to my flag position before they run out. So the only way to stop me from getting off with your flag is if someone is handy with a snare, and it needs to be a good one (like 80%) and backed up with a lotta dps. Otherwise it'll expire and I'll keep on trucking. edit: I miss my lost Sarnak 25% snare mitigation every time I play Ganak.</p></blockquote><p>Which means if you're with a warden with nature walk you're effectively unstoppable, yeah. The situation will become more pronounced with the survivability increases we'll see with the coming season. While I don't think the tactic is an instant-win or anything, <strong>I -do- think that the extreme difficulty in stopping competent flag-snatchers will result in both sides grabbing flags and then it just being a turtle exercise or deathmatch until the clock runs out. I favor survivability debuffs for teams holding flags just so matches don't always go to time</strong>. Thinking about it, combining the ability of your own team to pick up your flag to prevent snatching with the drawback of a substantial debuff for doing so could open up additional strategic avenues.</p><p>I kind of feel that people who talk about stopping flag-snatchers have never really run into strong players doing it, or only play in 80-89 BGs where people are made of tissue paper.</p></blockquote><p>I agree with that if the dev's dont want the matches to last the full time. After all, it is their decision and not our and since they do have that survey for BGs asking about length of them, they are getting our inputs for the length of time they last.</p>

[Blaidd]

<p>Well tonight as a zerker ran past with the flg I cast dispel magic followed by snare then root and he was still moving at 100% movement speed alone (no other players with him for movement speed songs etc).</p><p>Something needs to be done about this or games with be a case of running about and healers and casters will be a waste of time in the battlegrounds unless sony allow them to move and cast which I am sure will cause all melee to start whining about it being unfair. Something needs to be done before all the immunities and imbalances destroy the BG altogether.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p>Being able to hold your own flag is a terrible idea.  I am already in the process of flaming the idiots who sit in the base the entire match with the opponents flag claiming to be "protecting it".  You don't win the match by sitting around picking your butt while a couple people are out getting kills and basically holding off the entire opposing side.  This is also why they need to make it possible to vote/kick anyone (not just AFKs), but I'll leave that discussion for another thread.</p><p>Anyway, battling for the flag is strategy.  Flying solo back and forth across the map with temp buffs and tinkered garbage while anyone who attacks you is kicked into combat mode is a pathetic joke.</p><p>Lastly, I don't think the wall hopping thing with float or jump boots is completely OP.. for now.  Cheap trick, yes, OP.. no.  Normally when people do that against my ranger I can hook arrow them down and kill them, or just straight up kill them with ranged attacks.  Mages should be able to do the same thing, along with assassins and possibly brawlers.</p>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<p><cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Jump boots, slow falls and other items do not hurt gameplay.  Everyone can use them.  If someone does not choose to use them, or cannot learn how to fight against them, then why should we cater to those people?</p><p>If there is one thing we should have learned over the last few years, it is that restricting freedoms and choices in the game DOES NOT make the game better, it in fact makes it worse.</p><p>Learn to adapt.</p></blockquote><p>Yes everyone can use them. It's not a balance issue. It's a gameplay issue. Don't give me the 'adapt' crap because I'm exploiting them with everyone else at the moment - I know exactly how they work, it's just my idea of fun isn't standing on a roof for 20 minutes holding the flag while I check my email and grab a coffee, and maybe tap the occasional knockback if my whole team are dead and 12 enemies are running round the base laughably trying to catch me.</p><p>I don't see how it being impossible to stop a competent flag carrier (either when they walk into the base with immunities and 100% run speed to grab it, or when they get back to their own base and can bounce around the geometry without being combat locked to hold it)  benefits gameplay. I will admit that if people on both teams do this, the resulting 11v11 deathmatch is often fun, but then why have a flag at all?</p><p>Nor do I see how being able to move from centre tower direct to any flag in Smugglers is beneficial. In the case of smugglers it should be a battle for territory - what it in fact is for the majority of the time, is a bunch of people running in circles and occasionally steamrollering newbies that wander into them, and another bunch of people standing doing nothing on the top of the center tower. It's so easy to move around the map on smugglers defending a choke point (e.g. a bridge) is futile.</p>

[Tehom]

<p>Part of the problem is just how fast people revive, coupled with massive (and increasing, with next season) survivability. If people who died had, say, 5 minute revive timers unless their entire group was dead and it was more practical to rez them, then people doing the Army of One tactics would be a lot less appealing, and it'd actually be possible to make headway in some of these continuous fight situations. I know it'd be unpopular because people don't want to be put out of a match for being stupid, but I think it'd benefit the battlegrounds as a whole enormously.</p>

[Sydares]

<p>I would be <em>for</em> this change if it weren't for the fact that survivability is already through the roof. If I wanted turtle-fests I'd play Smugglers or Gears.</p>

[Seiffil]

<p><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Being able to hold your own flag is a terrible idea.  I am already in the process of flaming the idiots who sit in the base the entire match with the opponents flag claiming to be "protecting it".  You don't win the match by sitting around picking your butt while a couple people are out getting kills and basically holding off the entire opposing side. <strong> This is also why they need to make it possible to vote/kick anyone (not just AFKs), but I'll leave that discussion for another thread.</strong></p><p>Anyway, battling for the flag is strategy.  Flying solo back and forth across the map with temp buffs and tinkered garbage while anyone who attacks you is kicked into combat mode is a pathetic joke.</p><p>Lastly, I don't think the wall hopping thing with float or jump boots is completely OP.. for now.  Cheap trick, yes, OP.. no.  Normally when people do that against my ranger I can hook arrow them down and kill them, or just straight up kill them with ranged attacks.  Mages should be able to do the same thing, along with assassins and possibly brawlers.</p></blockquote><p>I would be extremely surprised if they ever gave us that option to vote/kick someone for any reason.  This is because if you have enough people who believe you, you could effectively start griefing people on your own team, which gets even worse assuming they would still have the Truancy debuff.  Then again as it is now, you could tell people in a smuggler's or ganak raid to afk vote someone and they'll still be sitting there 5 min later doing nothing.</p><p>I would only agree to being able to hold our own flag if they didn't make holding the flag put you into combat with regards to speed buffs.  Given the choice between the two, I'd prefer the flag to force them to drop all out of combat runspeed.</p>

[Sydares]

<p>Unlimited range on voteafk.</p><p>The end.</p>

[StaticLex]

<p><cite>Seiffil@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I would be extremely surprised if they ever gave us that option to vote/kick someone for any reason.  This is because if you have enough people who believe you, you could effectively start griefing people on your own team..</p></blockquote><p>I'm sure that's precisely why open voting isn't an option right now, and to me it's a stupid concern.  The vast majority of BGs are probably PUGs, so what are the odds of half a teams worth of random people from a bunch of different servers coming to an agreement on a vote just to grief someone?  It's silly.  As it stands people can run around and do stupid crap the whole time and hurt the team.  There is nothing anyone can do about it and they know it.</p><p>What I would suggest is making the votes anonymous of course, and then requiring 3 votes to kick from Gears, 6 from Ganak, and 9 from Den.</p>

[Blambil]

<p><cite>Brickfist wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I also think grabbing the flag should put you in combat. Since it puts people in combat who attempt to snare the carrier, it only seems fair.</p></blockquote><p>Well said.</p><p>As others in the thread have indicated, one can sustain 100% runspeed the entire time they have the flag, while those attempting to defend are dropped to 0% immediately.</p><p>Maybe use something ramped like the rune penalty in Gears.... Take away ALL of your runspeed immediately, but after 10,20,30,40,etc seconds start giving it back... or maybe vice versa.... after 10,20,30,40 etc seconds start taking runspeed away... (would be more funny.... by the time you get to the center, you're snared to 0%)</p>

[Blambil]

<p><cite>StaticLex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What I would suggest is making the votes anonymous of course, and then requiring 3 votes to kick from Gears, 6 from Ganak, and 9 from Den.</p></blockquote><p>Open voting would be nice.... While you're at it... add voting to "give up" -- would save time on some of the matches where you're up against a stacked group (RE: gears) and the score is already 150-0..</p>

[snowli]

<p>Vote to give up, mmm I'd vote to give up on every smugglers match as soon as it starts, faster tokens, less painful boredom, quicker to buy upgrades I want/need and get back to PvE/raiding, or do gears/ganak if I felt like PvPing.</p>

[Uinael_Guk]

<p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How about we leave it the way it is...</p><p>I'm a froglok fury, and  found out how to run at 100% run speed at all times (cept when engaged). These games are supposed to be more about tactical strategies and less about whether or not one person should be able to take on a x2.</p></blockquote><p>read:  I'm one of those people who rack up tons of tokens using a cheesy method and don't want to actually work for my wins, so please keep it the way it is.</p><p>Snare the guy?  I've tried that, and while it does work from time to time, it just takes 2 people coming in to stop that.  When I play defense on my necro, I usually snare a solo person before they even grab the flag and he's destroyed by the time they pick it up.  However, if 2+ people come in, I have to wait until someone grabs flag, and that greatly decreases the chances of anything happening. By the time I snare them, they're already at the ramp, still running faster than me because i'm in combat, and seconds later they're long gone.</p><p>Should a flag carrier be put in combat for 0 run speed?  I'm not sure a drastic measure like that is needed, but their speed should certainly be dropped by some % when carrying a flag, as well as increased debuffed over time.   It makes sense, flags are heavy, slows you down, and leaves you defenseless in the process.</p>

[Shankapotomus]

<p><cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How about we leave it the way it is...</p><p>I'm a froglok fury, and  found out how to run at 100% run speed at all times (cept when engaged). These games are supposed to be more about tactical strategies and less about whether or not one person should be able to take on a x2.</p></blockquote><p>read:  I'm one of those people who rack up tons of tokens using a cheesy method and don't want to actually work for my wins, so please keep it the way it is.</p><p>Snare the guy?  I've tried that, and while it does work from time to time, it just takes 2 people coming in to stop that.  When I play defense on my necro, I usually snare a solo person before they even grab the flag and he's destroyed by the time they pick it up.  However, if 2+ people come in, I have to wait until someone grabs flag, and that greatly decreases the chances of anything happening. By the time I snare them, they're already at the ramp, still running faster than me because i'm in combat, and seconds later they're long gone.</p><p>Should a flag carrier be put in combat for 0 run speed?  I'm not sure a drastic measure like that is needed, but their speed should certainly be dropped by some % when carrying a flag, as well as increased debuffed over time.   It makes sense, flags are heavy, slows you down, and leaves you defenseless in the process.</p></blockquote><p>Actually I don't typically grab the flag unless no one else in raid has the know how. I do usually run down and wait for my teamate to grab the flag so I can cure, heal, buff, and so on while he makes his escape. I actually snare and root the defenders so they are stuck in their own base... Sounds like a stratagey to me. Because if I grab the flag it doesn't take much to take down a fury who wears leather armor if i can't heal.</p><p>It's called stratagey...</p><p>So what you're saying is you are the only one playing defence, that would be the problem. and why would a necro be waiting for them to pick up the flag? you should be out front you're base waiting for him to make his escape and sending your pet after him once you get hi targeted, snaring him as he comes in range, and throwing some dots on him...</p><p>You need to have a full flegged plan. Since you don't you sit there and go, well poop... my snare didn't work, guess they score again.... Thanks for point proven</p>

[Uinael_Guk]

<p>Sitting out front waiting for him to come is full of fail. </p><p>First, it leaves me exposed to get practically one shotted by melee.   Second, it gives me exactly one chance to slow the guy down because he's going to be running either left, right or center and I have to run to make sure i'm in range of him, then stop to cast my snare.   Unless I time that right, he's going to be out of range again, and if it resists, he's gone.</p><p>By staying in base, if one person comes in I can snare and destroy them before they even touch the flag.  If snare is resisted, I still have time to fear him while snare refreshes.  Plus, he's in a closed area so he's an open target for any one of my teammates in the general area.</p><p>Also, I can send my pet on him regardless if I attack him at the flag or in the open btw.   In my base, that's more damage done by my pet by the time he's even left the base.</p><p>I've yet to play a single FPS or any style capture the flag type of game where it gives a huge advantage to the flag carrier.  I don't see why this one has to be different.</p>

[Blambil]

<p>This idea makes far too much sense to ever be implemented....</p>

[Alenna]

<p><cite>Phaust@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You can root, snare, mez or stun a flagcarrier and burn him down.What's the problem?</p></blockquote><p>Maybe because any hostile action has a good chance to  break the root, mez, or stun and he's back to speed again?</p>

[Crismorn]

<p><cite>snowline wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Vote to give up, mmm I'd vote to give up on every smugglers match as soon as it starts, faster tokens, less painful boredom, <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">quicker to buy upgrades I want/need and get back to PvE/raiding</span></strong>, or do gears/ganak if I felt like PvPing.</p></blockquote><p>Stop wasting your time in BG's then, you would be better off with TSO gear</p>

[Shankapotomus]

<p><cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sitting out front waiting for him to come is full of fail. </p><p>First, it leaves me exposed to get practically one shotted by melee.   Second, it gives me exactly one chance to slow the guy down because he's going to be running either left, right or center and I have to run to make sure i'm in range of him, then stop to cast my snare.   Unless I time that right, he's going to be out of range again, and if it resists, he's gone.</p><p>By staying in base, if one person comes in I can snare and destroy them before they even touch the flag.  If snare is resisted, I still have time to fear him while snare refreshes.  Plus, he's in a closed area so he's an open target for any one of my teammates in the general area.</p><p>Also, I can send my pet on him regardless if I attack him at the flag or in the open btw.   In my base, that's more damage done by my pet by the time he's even left the base.</p><p>I've yet to play a single FPS or any style capture the flag type of game where it gives a huge advantage to the flag carrier.  I don't see why this one has to be different.</p></blockquote><p>I'm confused, your first complaint was about how you had such a hard time if 2 people ran in to get the flag. So now you're talking about a single person running to get the flag? And before you were talking as if you were the only one defending?</p><p>Could we stick to the same senario and not pick which one better suits your arguement please? And you're right, it does leave you vunerable. But if you think I was telling you to stand out in front of you base by yourself and just sit there the whole time, looks like you have tougher problems than gettin the flag holder. But if you can't stop the flag holder before he gets out of the base, then try outside the base. Wait... You're probably one of the people that tries to snare an opponent and when it doesn't work just stands there saying, "Dang.... I'll get him next time." And I'm also guessing that you don't get him next time. But you're right, your plan is better, keep doing the exact same thing that you are sitting here complaining about how its not working.</p>