Change to the 3 Sages (Hard-mode) fight

[Mythal_EQ2]

<p>According to the Test Update Notes:</p><ul><li>3 Sage Encounter (Challenge Mode): If the incorrect character class (according to the Idolic Stone that sage possesses) keeps agro on that sage for more than 3 secs after that sage has lost its prismatic sphere, that character will be hit by a bolt of slaying.</li></ul><p>I was going to ask "Why", but I do understand that this change is meant to enforce the spirit of the fight -- which everyone, I am certain, tries to work around. I will, therefore ask this: Isn't it obvious, with every single guild that actually bothers with this fight, that the "spirit" of it is not exactly fun? or challenging? or remotely worth the reward?</p><p>With current mechanics, at best, this is a 20 minute fight. This is taking into account the Bolt effect stunning entire groups for no reason, HO's not getting completed (due to Bolt, or simply fighter CAs missing 80% of the time), etc, etc.</p><p>As I said above, it is NOT a fun fight. It's a relentless time-sink, with piddly rewards for the time spent on it.</p><p>The only thing this change will bring is that it will inflate this fight's duration to an hour or more -- unless, of course, it simply screws some people over completely. Not because they lack the skill, or somehow messed up the strat. Simply because if ONE person from their raid is missing, they will not be able to do the fight at all.</p><p>I understand that promoting the need for certain classes in raids is a wonderful thing. However, this is not the way to do it. I'm sorry, but no one should be FORCED to have any single class in their raid just so they can complete an encounter. This is NOT an optional encounter. This is instanced content that everyone, regardless of raid structure, should be able to complete. And, again, no one should be FORCED to have ANY single class in their raid.</p><p>And say that you do have all the fighter classes necessary. And your monk dies. Just the monk. What? You're going to  wipe now because every other tank that tries to pick up the mob will die in 3 seconds?</p><p>This is NOT the Three Princes fight. You cannot expect people to be bunched up, fighting the sages in close enough proximity to allow for immediate tank switching and removal of the immunity to keep the length of this fight within reasonable limits.</p><p>Or are we supposed to run raids with 9 tanks now?</p><p>/rant over.</p><p>Even if this change goes live -- which, again it should not, given that we should not be FORCED to have specific classes in the raid for it -- there are several things that need to be changed, in order to keep this fight marginally reasonable:</p><ol><li>HO timer increased by 2 seconds.</li><li>Immunity timer should start only after immunity is removed, and not right after it is applied.</li><li>Sages' health should be decreased by 30%.</li><li>AEs should either be decreased in potency or have their radii lowered.</li></ol><p>D.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p>Agreed, This is probally one of the most annoying and long encounters I have done and it didn't need this change to make it even worse.</p>

[LardLord]

<p><cite>Daervon@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><ol><li>HO timer increased by 2 seconds.</li><li>Immunity timer should start only after immunity is removed, and not right after it is applied.</li><li>Sages' health should be decreased by 30%.</li><li>AEs should either be decreased in potency or have their radii lowered.</li></ol></blockquote><p>Those would work, but I kinda like the HOs being really urgent (except when the boot misses a few times in a row).  My preference would just be to cut the HP on the mobs in half.</p><p><strong>EDIT:</strong> Oh, and maybe remove any uncontested avoidance the mobs have (seems like they must have some, dunno).</p>

[Mythal_EQ2]

<p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Those would work, but I kinda like the HOs being really urgent (except when the boot misses a few times in a row).  My preference would just be to cut the HP on the mobs in half.<p><strong>EDIT:</strong> Oh, and maybe remove any uncontested avoidance the mobs have (seems like they must have some, dunno).</p></blockquote><p>I like the HOs being urgent as well -- the way the fight works now. If it's to be changed though, as it is on Test, keeping the HOs as they are would only add to the problem.</p>

[LardLord]

<p><cite>Daervon@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Those would work, but I kinda like the HOs being really urgent (except when the boot misses a few times in a row).  My preference would just be to cut the HP on the mobs in half.<p><strong>EDIT:</strong> Oh, and maybe remove any uncontested avoidance the mobs have (seems like they must have some, dunno).</p></blockquote><p>I like the HOs being urgent as well -- the way the fight works now. If it's to be changed though, as it is on Test, keeping the HOs as they are would only add to the problem.</p></blockquote><p>I suppose.  We kill it the way it's "intended," and it's not really hard to get the HOs in or anything...just takes a long time to defeat the encounter, so that's why I think reducing the HP on the mobs (very) significantly would be enough.</p><p>Additionally, it would be nice if you could get to Roehn Theer without defeating this encounter, in case you don't have the required tanks.</p>

[Gaige]

<p>I assume this change is going in so people will actually start switching mobs like they're supposed to instead of standing there through two switches until the mob switches back to the original tank.</p>

[Mythal_EQ2]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I assume this change is going in so people will actually start switching mobs like they're supposed to instead of standing there through two switches until the mob switches back to the original tank.</p></blockquote><p>Actually, Gaige, if that change goes is, that is exactly what people will be doing because it's (again) going to be a complete pain in the butt to switch mobs. Currently you don't need to. With the change, you're forced to switch, dramatically decreasing the time you get to DPS on each mob -- or wait for the mobs to switch, dramatically increasing the fight duration because you're just sitting on your thumbs for 3/4s of the time. Either way, we'll be spending an hour on them again.</p><p>D.</p>

[FimisOrbe]

<p>Even with doing them like the Script already want you to do it, it doesn't take longer then ~20min to Kill them, if you don't screw it midfight.</p><p>The switching was never a Problem. The HO (Boot/Time) is a bigger Problem then anything Else. Only thing they should/can change with this Change incoming is to Increase the Duration of HO and slightly lower the HP from Medorius and Mikla.</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Daervon@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Actually, Gaige, if that change goes is, that is exactly what people will be doing because it's (again) going to be a complete pain in the butt to switch mobs. Currently you don't need to. With the change, you're forced to switch, dramatically decreasing the time you get to DPS on each mob -- or wait for the mobs to switch, dramatically increasing the fight duration because you're just sitting on your thumbs for 3/4s of the time. Either way, we'll be spending an hour on them again.</p></blockquote><p>Um, we switch everytime and average about a 25 min kill time.  So I'm not sure how you think switching will make it take longer.</p>

[Kunaak]

<p>this fight is the absolute worst thing I have ever seen in any game - anywhere.</p><p>this fight makes people want to quit - LD - lose DKP for that night....</p><p>its not overly difficult - but exceptionally tedious. tedious isnt really the right way to describe it... this fight makes me wish I could fall asleep and have freddy krueger come tear out my spine to end my misery, in a way that makes me feel something interesting again for that brief moment, cause that would break me out of the hell that is this fight....</p><p>heres how that fight goes.... stand there - stand there - stand there - stand there - stand there - oh something to do, pot so and so - stand there - stand there - stand there - stand there - stand there - stand there - stand there - DPS - stand there - stand there - stand there - Pot someone again - stand there - stand there - stand there - stand there -</p><p>repeat untill you cant stand it.</p><p>this new change - I hope is enough to push people to never do this fight again, much like how anyone who's ever killed perah celsis, probably only did it once - not cause they couldnt do it again - but cause the awesomeness of the fight is overwhelming indeed.</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Instead of "chasing" your target, move the opposite direction and wait.  This way, instead of waiting for two complete cycles of the stone change, you only wait one.</p><p>Still annoying, but perhaps a little less.</p>

[Quicksilver74]

<p><cite>Daervon@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> If the incorrect character class (according to the Idolic Stone that sage possesses) keeps agro on that sage for more than 3 secs after that sage has lost its prismatic sphere, that character will be hit by a bolt of slaying.</p></blockquote><p>I think this will make the fight very quick, as someone will likely use a "reflect" ability and the bolt of slaying will 1-shot the sage.  </p>

[Hikinami]

<p><cite>Crabbok@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Daervon@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> If the incorrect character class (according to the Idolic Stone that sage possesses) keeps agro on that sage for more than 3 secs after that sage has lost its prismatic sphere, that character will be hit by a bolt of slaying.</p></blockquote><p>I think this will make the fight very quick, as someone will likely use a "reflect" ability and the bolt of slaying will 1-shot the sage.  </p></blockquote><p>if only!</p>

[Banditman]

<p>I know of no reflect ability that will work on non-profession spells.</p>

[Corydonn]

<p>I like this fight and I like the change, They just need to make a change to make sure players don't do the sit at the mob for three rotations and don't move at all... Like a raid wipe effect or something.</p>

[Mythal_EQ2]

<p>On top of all the other issues, let's see if you like this fight when it's an insta-wipe if one of your tank dies, since three seconds after a sage takes agro on one of the other tanks, they're dying too.</p>

[jjlo69]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I know of no reflect ability that will work on non-profession spells.</p></blockquote><p>see crusader int end line</p><p>Uncle</p>

[Gaige]

<p><cite>Daervon@Nektulos wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>On top of all the other issues, let's see if you like this fight when it's an insta-wipe if one of your tank dies, since three seconds after a sage takes agro on one of the other tanks, they're dying too.</p></blockquote><p>Pretty sure that the insta-wipe thing doesn't happen until the HO is completed, and why would you complete the HO before all tanks have made the appropriate switch anyway.</p>

[Mythal_EQ2]

<p><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Pretty sure that the insta-wipe thing doesn't happen until the HO is completed, and why would you complete the HO before all tanks have made the appropriate switch anyway.</blockquote><p>That's not the point... Currently, say that one of your tanks dies -- it happens. You can still recover, even if it means that one of the other tanks has to hold agro on two sages until the dead are rezed.</p><p>With this change, as soon as one tank dies, if the sage targets another tank, they're dead 3 seconds later. No way to salvage that (unless you run around until the immunity goes up again).</p>

[Gaige]

<p>/shrug</p><p>Deal with that if/when it happens.</p>

[Eldrie]

<p>HM Sages in its current incarnation bores me to tears (we don't usually switch mobs since we are often missing a required archetype). This change may make the fight more interesting, I guess, so it has that going for it.</p><p>However, a couple changes need to be made to the encounter if this goes live.</p><p>1) Make it possible to bypass this event to get to Theer. The alternative is to waste HM sages loot and just do easymode if you don't have one of the correct fighter archetypes on. The other alternative is to force people to roll fighter alts for this one encounter. Both of these alternatives are, quite frankly, stupid.</p><p>2) Get rid of Bolt of Retribution. As far as I can tell, its only function is to prevent people from tanking the incorrect sage. If this change goes live, Bolt is redundant and serves no function other than annoyance. It sure would be nice if I could do something more than just stand there and pot people 2/3 of the time once we're down to the last sage.</p>

[Tehom]

<p>Making the timer for their shield/switching to start from when it drops rather than immediately after casting would probably make the fight a lot less obnoxious, and dumping bolt of retribution on hardmode as redundant would be a good idea. This encounter is nearly universally despised aside from brawlers who get excited about being able to tank.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>Hey!  I like tanking <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[mafoe]

I wished you, SOE, would have the balls to change an extremely unpopular and annoying encounter in the middle of an expansion, but I think you don't. 1 idea about this fight were pretty cool: the heroic opportunity. That's it. The rest is just pure annoying. Having to split the raid is never fun. Requiring usually unwanted classes is awful. The revive point is an insult. The hit rate on the boot is atrocious. Punishing tanks for dpsing (when 1 or 2 sages are down) is aggravating. Here's some more suggestions to make this fight fun (and fun it should be) : - remove Bolt of Retribution - swap in another tank CA instead of the boot (the sword f.e.) - make the aoes incurable and give them zonewide range - tone down aoe damage - remove the special damage effect when aoes stack - give each sage a buff that increases their melee dmg by 25% if they're tanked by the wrong archetype - place a revive point at the entrance to the room

[Crismorn]

<p>They made easy mode encounters for the lesser guilds to stop the nerf whining, I guess it did not work</p>

[mafoe]

You can pull annoying crap encounters till your eyes bleed, I dont give a [Removed for Content]

[Geothe]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They made easy mode encounters for the lesser guilds to stop the nerf whining, I guess it did not work</p></blockquote><p>Says the guy that hasn't even killed easy mode on 3mages.</p>

[Mythal_EQ2]

<p>Change now on live... This encounter, hands down, takes the medal for Worst Encounter in the Game. Ever.</p><p>Issues as described in my initial post. /shrug.</p>

[Corydonn]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They made easy mode encounters for the lesser guilds to stop the nerf whining, I guess it did not work</p></blockquote><p>This.</p>

[Apake]

<p>Definately if any changes need to be done to this fight, lower the mobs health, like a 20% health reduction to the 2 extra mobs, and a 50% health reduction to Mandoril.</p><p>As it is right now, if you can do the fight for 10-15 minutes, then you can do it for the 20-30 it takes to get the mob dead.</p><p>I don't really understand the reasoning of wanting to drag the fight out for another 10-15 minutes, in my opinion the 10-15 minute boss fights are still annoyingly long, but at 20-40 minute kills depending how many HO's you get quickly, it's just absolutely so ridiculous right now.</p><p>I'm not sure who decided that the 2nd to last boss in each zone was supposed to be the most annoying fight in the zone, but there really need to be changes to make this more raid-friendly, and I'm not saying easier, but just funner.</p><p>Is the point of the game to be having fun or to be annoyed to the point of not wanting to do the content?</p><p>There is a HUGE difference in making an encounter very hard (4 rune Roehn Theer) and making a fight very annoying and drawn-out (Hard mode 3 sages/Destroyer).</p><p>We understand you put a ton of work into the fights, and making different scripts and coming up with different stuff for each boss, but come on, is making people fight for 20+ minutes, and have a chance at wiping if something isnt cured within 6 seconds (like you have been doing the other 20 minutes already) really a way to make a fight "harder" or just frustrating?</p><p>We get your script, we don't like it, make it less annoying and it might be interesting.</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p>It's not bad, Killed it in just over 15 mins tonight.</p>

[Tehom]

<p>It's not too hard, but even 15 minutes is a heck of a lot longer than other hardmodes like twins, Waansu, Tox, and especially Maalus. I'd be fine with them upping their damage a lot and reducing the time the fight takes to make it less tedious.</p>

[Eldrie]

<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They made easy mode encounters for the lesser guilds to stop the nerf whining, I guess it did not work</p></blockquote><p>I can see why long experience with raid encounters in EQ2 would lead one to believe that "difficult" and "annoying" are synonymous, but I assure you, they are not. There's a big difference between wanting something to be made easier and wanting something to cease to be an annoying waste of time.</p>

[Hecula]

<p>This encounter is by far the most annoying I think I've fought thus far. I also think Pera and Maalus Imbued are terribly designed. An encounter that relies on luck and not skill is not fun in my book. I think I actually saw someone post somewhere on these forums how much better SF raid encounters are than TSO. With a couple exceptions I wonder if we're fighting the same encounters. I enjoy Tox, Druushk 3.0 and Theer and that's about it thus far. Haven't tried Xilaxis HM but from what I hear it's not fun either. Of all these, I think the 3 sages is perhaps the worst (although I reserve the right to re-evaluate after doing Xilaxis HM).</p>

[Notsovilepriest]

<p>The sages aren't luck based at all like the others you were talking about</p>

[mafoe]

Thats true, but whether the boot hits or not is still a big luck factor. I kinda liked how avatar fights where time-capped. Every fight that takes longer than 10 minutes is a waste of people's time. Avatars had sometimes really annoying scripts, but at least the pulls didnt drag on awfully.

[EasternKing]

<p><cite>mafoe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Thats true, but whether the boot hits or not is still a big luck factor. I kinda liked how avatar fights where time-capped. Every fight that takes longer than 10 minutes is a waste of people's time. Avatars had sometimes really annoying scripts, but at least the pulls didnt drag on awfully.</blockquote><p>Avatars didnt have 70-100million hp pools either.</p>

[Hecula]

<p><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The sages aren't luck based at all like the others you were talking about</p></blockquote><p>I didn't say they were. I said the other fights like Pera and Maalus Imbued are terribly designed - that's what they have in common with the 3 sages fight. That's why I said, "I also think Pera and Maalus Imbued are terribly designed". ALSO being the operative here. If the 3 sages fight was luck based, I might have said something like, "[Removed for Content], another luck-based encounter in SF? 2 wasn't enough?" But it's not. So they are related in being badly designed encounters. Hence the point of my post. That there are a lot of un-fun encounters in SF. Of which the 3 sages is the worst. (With reservation to change my opinion once we start working on Xilaxis HM).</p><p>Understand?</p>

[Tehom]

<p><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>mafoe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Thats true, but whether the boot hits or not is still a big luck factor. I kinda liked how avatar fights where time-capped. Every fight that takes longer than 10 minutes is a waste of people's time. Avatars had sometimes really annoying scripts, but at least the pulls didnt drag on awfully.</blockquote><p>Avatars didnt have 70-100million hp pools either.</p></blockquote><p>That's true, but I think the amount of health is a little arbitrary since actual dps varies so much from encounter to encounter. It's easier to just specify an ideal for how long fights should last rather than some hp pool. To me, I think 10 minutes should be about the maximum, and 5 minutes more of an ideal. Maalus Imbued is probably one of my favorite fights in the expansion because of its relatively short length, since it's usually around 3 minutes or so.</p>

[Gaige]

<p>So your favorite fight is a 3 minute tank and spank?  Less of those, more like Theer imo.</p>