BG Blue Archetype Adorns on Test - Totally Imbalancing [Archive]

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Seolta

04-29-2010, 01:33 PM

Title says it all. The new archetype adornments are somewhat imbalancing and may make BG's somewhat annoying for all classes while possibly ruining the experience for certain classes and essentially making them useless for BG.As is:<img src="http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e162/seolta/EQ2/bluearchadorns.jpg" />Ok...allow me to state the problems as I see them:Mage/Scout<ul><li>Triggers off of incoming melee dmg(Mage) and incoming spell dmg(scout) </li><li>Sorcerers pretty much get a free pass from the scout adorn, all other classes affected</li><li>Warriors, Brawlers, Scouts pretty much get a free pass from the mage adorn, all other classes affected</li><li>8% chance, 3sec duration limited to once every 15sec...we all know this means it's basically gonna be triggering EVERY 15sec, so really anyone doing the appropriate dmg against ONE of these guys will essentially be stifled and dazed approx 1/5 of the time. Doesn't that sound a little bit OP?</li><li>Anyone unfortunate enough to be a Crusader, Bard, Priest, Shaman, Summoner(?), Enchanter will essentially be doubling down on their chance to catch the proc when fighting a mixed group of scouts/mages resulting in a good chance to be dazed/stifled approx 2/5 of the time or 40% of the time!</li><li>Classes doing AE AutoAttack dmg or AE Spell dmg will be essentially perma-dazed/stifled when fighting in a large group(most of BG fights)since anytime they aren't dazed/stifled they will potentially be hitting multiple mages/scouts simultaneously, each with a chance to proc.</li><li>Crusaders for instance, will be triggering with BOTH spell and melee dmg as well as BOTH AE Auto and AE Spell dmg.</li><li>The only mitigating factor really is the fact that each mage/scout can only proc the effect 1x per 15sec... this does help to protect single target dmg classes somewhat, but really doesn't help AE classes very much.</li><li>Most classes need to *push buttons to live*! When stifled or dazed they are extremely vulnerable, Most classes can't simply turtle up like a Berserker or Brawler whose main survivability functions are passive. These classes will be extra hard hit by this increase in the rate at which they will be stifled/dazed. </li><li>Daze and Stifle are 2 of the most annoying detrimentals which can be placed on a player and are EXTREMELY frustrating to deal with. THIS IS NOT FUN! and if anything will serve to discourage people from playing BG.</li><li>If you don't kill a scout or mage in the first few seconds of the fight 1on1, they will either KILL YOU or control/escape. It's as simple as that. Giving them an OP daze/stifle proc which will render some classes nearly immobile in a fight is only going to exacerbate this situation.</li></ul>Priest<ul><li>Basically interrupt immunity for 10sec 1x per 45sec(triggered off ANY dmg so yeah will be used every 45 for sure).</li><li>A healer can do ALOT in 10sec including greening up and entire group</li><li>Still the most reasonable of all 4 of these adorns</li></ul>Fighter<ul><li>10sec reduction of incoming heals by 10% which is pretty much useless on an individual basis considering the fact that most targets you attack won't even be receiving heals BUT...</li><li>IT STACKS WHEN TRIGGERED BY MULTIPLE FIGHTERSWHAaaaaa? So now on a contested flag cap or any large melee, the team with more fighters and an MA will have a huge advantage against any single target....are you guys SURE you wanna do this? Just playing devil's advocate but IMO this will make PUG teams even more fail-prone than they already are on the large maps(and they're already WAY fail prone). This could definitely widen the already significant gap between PUG and Pre-Made and i'm not sure that's a very good way to keep ppl coming back to BG.</li></ul>Conclusion:BG shouldn't be drastically and fundamentally re-shaped by a couple adorns! Some classes will literally be just about unplayable in BG should these adorns go live as-is. I guess it's a nice gesture to want to give each archetype something special, but seriously, let's just take baby steps in this direction and start us off with something low key like the interrupt immunity or dps procs.Please also remember that some classes will be harder hit than others when you use specific types of dmg to trigger procs. Please also remember us AE spell and AE auto attack classes, and consider how our AE attacks will factor into the triggering mechanics.P.S. I don't claim to be some ultimate expert on all classes, just wanted to get the ball rolling on this since I noticed some problems and didn't see anyone else addressing them. Would love to see input from various classes and how they think these adorns would affect their BG play.

Uilamin

04-29-2010, 01:54 PM

Ummm the fighter one is just putting a weaker version of mutilation as an adornment. The effect is already in game and heavily used, so there is nothing wrong here.The priest one is rather usefull. A lot of healers already have some form of interupt immunity (or are very hard to interupt as is), plus clerics have steadfast already which does this too.For the scout and mage one. If I understand the mechanics right, it is once every 15s it can proc versus everyone who hits the target, but on a person to person basis. This means if 2 people are trying to kill the same target they are locked down 1/10th of the time, 3 people 1/15th, etc.

Seolta

04-30-2010, 11:25 AM

<cite>Uilamin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ummm the fighter one is just putting a weaker version of mutilation as an adornment. The effect is already in game and heavily used, so there is nothing wrong here.The priest one is rather usefull. A lot of healers already have some form of interupt immunity (or are very hard to interupt as is), plus clerics have steadfast already which does this too.For the scout and mage one. If I understand the mechanics right, it is once every 15s it can proc versus everyone who hits the target, but on a person to person basis. This means if 2 people are trying to kill the same target they are locked down 1/10th of the time, 3 people 1/15th, etc.</blockquote>The Mutilation weapon proc is 15% heal reduction but NON stackable as the description seems to indicate. The new Mangle effect is STACKABLE which changes the tactics of BG. A gang of fighters with this adorn can drastically reduce received heals on a single target by swarming that target.This may seem innocuous but do you really want something stupid like an adornment to change the tactics of BG even just a little? Thats the whole point of my post. I thought we were headed AWAY from items being able to imbalance things even further.The Scout/Mage as I understand it will have a chance to proc ONCE every 15sec no matter how many ppl are attacking you. This is all well and good until you factor in AE attacks as I stated. Here is a scenario to illustrate the issue:SK rolls into a group of 2 mages and 2 scouts. Here's what happens in approx. the first 5 seconds:<ol><li>SK selects a target and hits Hammer Ground (CA AE stun and dmg). This triggers the chance of proc on the 2 mages.</li><li>SK's first auto attack hits scout1(forced to target scout to avoid triggering proc on mages)</li><li>SK's Undeniable Malice procs on scout1 triggering chance to proc</li><li>SK's Grim Strike procs on scout1 triggering chance to proc</li><li>SK's AE auto attack hits (which has a max targets of 4) and triggers chance of proc from the 2 mages</li><li>SK's Undeniable Malice procs on scout1 triggering chance to proc(I have multiple pieces with this proc and it really does proc this much)</li><li>SK casts Shadow Coil on scout1 hitting him with the first of 5 tics of DoT dmg triggering a chance to proc</li><li>SK runs through his main dmg AE's (2 DoT spells and 1 Nuke CA) triggering 4 chances of proc on the scouts, and 2 chances of proc on the mages</li><li>SK's Unholy Strike procs on scout1 triggering a chance to proc</li><li>SK hits scout1 with Devour Vitae triggering chance at proc</li><li>SK hits Unholy Blessing triggering 5 times(hitting each scout 1x for a total of 2 chances to trigger proc</li><li>SK hits scout1 who is at range now with 2 ranged nukes, Malice and Dreadful Wrath combining for 2 chances to trigger proc </li></ol>By my count thats 20 individual chances on multiple targets to trigger an 8% chance proc. which EACH of them can hit you with 1x per 15sec. (that's 4 procs per 15sec.)***REMEMBER*** this is less than 10sec. into the encounter!I haven't even gotten to the point where DoT's are re-ticking yet!Yes, this is 1v4 encounter but imagine a 6v6 or any large encounter, anyone with AE dmg(and especially those like crusaders (with AE spell+AE CA+AE Auto attack dmg) will be getting so many chances to receive proc that they will be dazed/stifled at a ridiculous rate!Does this seem the least little bit imbalancing to anyone?Here's the summation in bold type:If left unchanged, these adorns will very likely fundamentally alter BG combat and quite possibly render AE intensive classes practically unusable in BGs.

EverRude

04-30-2010, 11:42 AM

I am seriously resisting the urge to say that a crusader stifled and dazed 40% of the match would still be OP [compared to guards in pvp]. Seriously I am resisting the urge to say that. But it's hard. I will agree though that it does appear that it will effect hybrids more than other classes. That aspect should be tested. Hopefully people will get the opportunity to equip this stuff to test.

Dojac

04-30-2010, 04:51 PM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Title says it all. The new archetype adornments are somewhat imbalancing and may make BG's somewhat annoying for all classes while possibly ruining the experience for certain classes and essentially making them useless for BG.As is:<img src="http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e162/seolta/EQ2/bluearchadorns.jpg" />Ok...allow me to state the problems as I see them:Mage/Scout<ul><li>Triggers off of incoming melee dmg(Mage) and incoming spell dmg(scout) </li><li>Sorcerers pretty much get a free pass from the scout adorn, all other classes affected</li><li>Warriors, Brawlers, Scouts pretty much get a free pass from the mage adorn, all other classes affected</li><li>8% chance, 3sec duration limited to once every 15sec...we all know this means it's basically gonna be triggering EVERY 15sec, so really anyone doing the appropriate dmg against ONE of these guys will essentially be stifled and dazed approx 1/5 of the time. Doesn't that sound a little bit OP?</li><li>Anyone unfortunate enough to be a Crusader, Bard, Priest, Shaman, Summoner(?), Enchanter will essentially be doubling down on their chance to catch the proc when fighting a mixed group of scouts/mages resulting in a good chance to be dazed/stifled approx 2/5 of the time or 40% of the time!</li><li>Classes doing AE AutoAttack dmg or AE Spell dmg will be essentially perma-dazed/stifled when fighting in a large group(most of BG fights)since anytime they aren't dazed/stifled they will potentially be hitting multiple mages/scouts simultaneously, each with a chance to proc.</li><li>Crusaders for instance, will be triggering with BOTH spell and melee dmg as well as BOTH AE Auto and AE Spell dmg.</li><li>The only mitigating factor really is the fact that each mage/scout can only proc the effect 1x per 15sec... this does help to protect single target dmg classes somewhat, but really doesn't help AE classes very much.</li><li>Most classes need to *push buttons to live*! When stifled or dazed they are extremely vulnerable, Most classes can't simply turtle up like a Berserker or Brawler whose main survivability functions are passive. These classes will be extra hard hit by this increase in the rate at which they will be stifled/dazed. </li><li>Daze and Stifle are 2 of the most annoying detrimentals which can be placed on a player and are EXTREMELY frustrating to deal with. THIS IS NOT FUN! and if anything will serve to discourage people from playing BG.</li><li>If you don't kill a scout or mage in the first few seconds of the fight 1on1, they will either KILL YOU or control/escape. It's as simple as that. Giving them an OP daze/stifle proc which will render some classes nearly immobile in a fight is only going to exacerbate this situation.</li></ul>Priest<ul><li>Basically interrupt immunity for 10sec 1x per 45sec(triggered off ANY dmg so yeah will be used every 45 for sure).</li><li>A healer can do ALOT in 10sec including greening up and entire group</li><li>Still the most reasonable of all 4 of these adorns</li></ul>Fighter<ul><li>10sec reduction of incoming heals by 10% which is pretty much useless on an individual basis considering the fact that most targets you attack won't even be receiving heals BUT...</li><li>IT STACKS WHEN TRIGGERED BY MULTIPLE FIGHTERSWHAaaaaa? So now on a contested flag cap or any large melee, the team with more fighters and an MA will have a huge advantage against any single target....are you guys SURE you wanna do this? Just playing devil's advocate but IMO this will make PUG teams even more fail-prone than they already are on the large maps(and they're already WAY fail prone). This could definitely widen the already significant gap between PUG and Pre-Made and i'm not sure that's a very good way to keep ppl coming back to BG.</li></ul>Conclusion:BG shouldn't be drastically and fundamentally re-shaped by a couple adorns! Some classes will literally be just about unplayable in BG should these adorns go live as-is. I guess it's a nice gesture to want to give each archetype something special, but seriously, let's just take baby steps in this direction and start us off with something low key like the interrupt immunity or dps procs.Please also remember that some classes will be harder hit than others when you use specific types of dmg to trigger procs. Please also remember us AE spell and AE auto attack classes, and consider how our AE attacks will factor into the triggering mechanics.P.S. I don't claim to be some ultimate expert on all classes, just wanted to get the ball rolling on this since I noticed some problems and didn't see anyone else addressing them. Would love to see input from various classes and how they think these adorns would affect their BG play. </blockquote>QFE!!!! As a enchanter I have to throw at least 3 spells (if not more) to equal the damage of one sorc spells. Sooooooo with these I not only do considerably less DPS than sorcs now I have a much greater chance to catch a stiflle. On top of that 4 of my main spells are DOTS. They're not even worth casting with these out there. Why even bring an enchanter into the BGs anymore? CC is jacked. Utility is pointless when you're not in a premade. Woot! Its time for a revamp for Illies in PvP. Half the class has already quit/betrayed to coercer. The reason you don't get as many complaints on illies as other classes is that we are seriously the lowest population in terms of actively played toons.If you want to make ALOT of people happy (and make things ALOT more balanced) make the trigger chance a function of damage dealt. I can imagine that code could get a bit messy to write but there is absolutely ZERO balance here. Sorcs climb higher, all other mages [Removed for Content].Its a good thing I started working on my ranger.....

Notsovilepriest

04-30-2010, 05:02 PM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uilamin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ummm the fighter one is just putting a weaker version of mutilation as an adornment. The effect is already in game and heavily used, so there is nothing wrong here.The priest one is rather usefull. A lot of healers already have some form of interupt immunity (or are very hard to interupt as is), plus clerics have steadfast already which does this too.For the scout and mage one. If I understand the mechanics right, it is once every 15s it can proc versus everyone who hits the target, but on a person to person basis. This means if 2 people are trying to kill the same target they are locked down 1/10th of the time, 3 people 1/15th, etc.</blockquote>The Mutilation weapon proc is 15% heal reduction but NON stackable as the description seems to indicate. The new Mangle effect is STACKABLE which changes the tactics of BG. A gang of fighters with this adorn can drastically reduce received heals on a single target by swarming that target.This may seem innocuous but do you really want something stupid like an adornment to change the tactics of BG even just a little? Thats the whole point of my post. I thought we were headed AWAY from items being able to imbalance things even further.The Scout/Mage as I understand it will have a chance to proc ONCE every 15sec no matter how many ppl are attacking you. This is all well and good until you factor in AE attacks as I stated. Here is a scenario to illustrate the issue:SK rolls into a group of 2 mages and 2 scouts. Here's what happens in approx. the first 5 seconds:<ol><li>SK selects a target and hits Hammer Ground (CA AE stun and dmg). This triggers the chance of proc on the 2 mages.</li><li>SK's first auto attack hits scout1(forced to target scout to avoid triggering proc on mages)</li><li>SK's Undeniable Malice procs on scout1 triggering chance to proc</li><li>SK's Grim Strike procs on scout1 triggering chance to proc</li><li>SK's AE auto attack hits (which has a max targets of 4) and triggers chance of proc from the 2 mages</li><li>SK's Undeniable Malice procs on scout1 triggering chance to proc(I have multiple pieces with this proc and it really does proc this much)</li><li>SK casts Shadow Coil on scout1 hitting him with the first of 5 tics of DoT dmg triggering a chance to proc</li><li>SK runs through his main dmg AE's (2 DoT spells and 1 Nuke CA) triggering 4 chances of proc on the scouts, and 2 chances of proc on the mages</li><li>SK's Unholy Strike procs on scout1 triggering a chance to proc</li><li>SK hits scout1 with Devour Vitae triggering chance at proc</li><li>SK hits Unholy Blessing triggering 5 times(hitting each scout 1x for a total of 2 chances to trigger proc</li><li>SK hits scout1 who is at range now with 2 ranged nukes, Malice and Dreadful Wrath combining for 2 chances to trigger proc </li></ol>By my count thats 20 individual chances on multiple targets to trigger an 8% chance proc. which EACH of them can hit you with 1x per 15sec. (that's 4 procs per 15sec.)***REMEMBER*** this is less than 10sec. into the encounter!I haven't even gotten to the point where DoT's are re-ticking yet!Yes, this is 1v4 encounter but imagine a 6v6 or any large encounter, anyone with AE dmg(and especially those like crusaders (with AE spell+AE CA+AE Auto attack dmg) will be getting so many chances to receive proc that they will be dazed/stifled at a ridiculous rate!Does this seem the least little bit imbalancing to anyone?Here's the summation in bold type:If left unchanged, these adorns will very likely fundamentally alter BG combat and quite possibly render AE intensive classes practically unusable in BGs.</blockquote><cite>Mutilation stacks...</cite>

Armawk

04-30-2010, 07:25 PM

Reactive control effects are about the dumbest thing you could add to any game anyway. However the devs love them so hey.

Notsovilepriest

04-30-2010, 07:29 PM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>Reactive control effects are about the dumbest thing you could add to any game anyway. However the devs love them so hey.</blockquote>In PvE yes, but in PvP, it makes sense.

Sydares

04-30-2010, 09:13 PM

Looking at these makes me cringe.

skidmark

04-30-2010, 09:58 PM

As it is now with beserkers/paladins/sks the mangle/mutilate thing will make the battles somewhat tolerable. I have a beserker, it is really hard to kill me even with 6 people attack and no healer.

timetravelling

04-30-2010, 10:25 PM

thanks for the very specific and clear feedback!In looking at ways to make these desirable but not frustration-inducing, I changed them internally to be a 3s daze + an interrupt instead of a 3s stifle.That way even in AE situations, you may have your autoattack temporarily disabled but should still be able to use abilities and move about to survive.

Dojac

04-30-2010, 10:41 PM

timetravelling

04-30-2010, 10:49 PM

The internal cooldowns were added specifically to help combat that issue. You should not have someone proccing the effect on you over and over again as they will become unable to proc it for 15s after it fires

Dojac

04-30-2010, 11:11 PM

<cite>timetravelling wrote:</cite><blockquote>The internal cooldowns were added specifically to help combat that issue. You should not have someone proccing the effect on you over and over again as they will become unable to proc it for 15s after it fires</blockquote>Am I still not more likely to get the proc a second time once the cooldown wears off or is it like an immunity timer?

Notsovilepriest

04-30-2010, 11:21 PM

That nerf made those adorns probally never be used by any scout/mage over a diff more broad red adorn TBH.Mutilation and Mutilation type procs are going to start getting out of hard since they are procing over and over almost as fast as you can cure.

Tehom

04-30-2010, 11:52 PM

I think temporary potency/crit bonus reductions would be more subtle and largely achieve the same effect as stifle without causing real frustration for players. Players hate control effects, but being able to mash buttons and have greatly reduced affects doesn't have the same sort of irritation for players as being stifled does, and it stacks better with existing control effects.Personally I think the priest one should have a faster refresh rate, such as 25 seconds or so, since I feel it may be likely to trigger from initial AE/spell hits and be wasted before melee move in to use interrupts. It's arguable that defensive blue adorns like the 5 PVP-crit-mit would already be stronger, and clerics have no need for this one due to steadfast. Perhaps adding stun/stifle immunity to it as well would make it more generically useful to all priests. It may be a good idea to make it and other temporary proc'd buffs that are introduced generally level 1 effects, to allow for easier dispelling as a counter by multiple opponents.

Foolsfolly

05-01-2010, 02:46 PM

Wow, those are extremely unbalanced in the mage vs scout department. A static 8% chance to proc against both?The problem is that scouts are spamming around 4 smaller attacks per second, while sorcerers use big slow nukes which land maybe once every 2-4 seconds. This means scouts will end up dazed about half of the time, while mages are dazed maybe 5% of the time.Also, what the bloody hell, an interrupt? A reactive interrupt? So, a mage nukes me, his spell does it's damage, then my reactive procs and interrupts what, the spell that he already finished casting? You really didn't think this out very well did you?It's bad enough scouts get their damage reduced to 0 by static damage reducers, but now you're introducing effects which hurt scouts ten times more than mages, and then you change it so it doesn't affect mages at all. Stop all the mage favoritism!

Tehom

05-01-2010, 03:28 PM

I have to disagree - given their duration vs the cooldown on triggering, they really shouldn't be on players that much unless you're bouncing from target to target. If anything, I think they may be too weak.I do have a seperate concern though. Two of the new challenger pieces have 10% pvp crit mit, and there's blue adorns for 5 toughness and 5 pvp crit mit. I'm very skeptical that a 15% increase in spell damage will meaningfully counteract the massive increase in survivability players will be able to obtain should they choose to augment their pvp crit mit and/or toughness. My suggestion is to have blue-slot weaponry and symbols from the merchants and blue adorns which only go in those slots and provide procs to help counteract defense. Suggestions would be damage equvalent to Torrent or Pestilential Rain, but also having a resist debuff component (say, equivalent to the Spiritual Nightmare proc from Miragul's belt) with a fairly long duration, and allow stacking from multiple casters. I feel allowing strong resist debuffing is necessary in order to make mages viable against players with high resists, along with an increase in mutilation-style procs to make teams with multiple healers killable.A blue adorn for mages-only which also makes Dispel Magic unresistable in pvp and dispel more levels of all types might be a good idea as well.

Rocc

05-01-2010, 03:37 PM

I noticed the stat differences on all the BG gear is substantially different also. The scouts have incredibly high stats in AGI where the fighters have much lower stats in STA and STR and mages in INT. The combined numbers or individual numbers show one thing, favorability. I dont understand the obvious overpowerment with scouts? Are the devs all playing scouts or what?Edit - I'm trying to find my screenshot folder to post pics of this and I cannot find it in ANY EQ2 folder. You guys posting pics, where is your screenie folder your pullin them from?Edit - It's been changed NVMD. FATAL LIFETAP III on scout and FATAL LIFETAP II on fighter tho. Thats a HUGE difference!

Seolta

05-03-2010, 04:26 AM

<cite>timetravelling wrote:</cite><blockquote>thanks for the very specific and clear feedback!In looking at ways to make these desirable but not frustration-inducing, I changed them internally to be a 3s daze + an interrupt instead of a 3s stifle.That way even in AE situations, you may have your autoattack temporarily disabled but should still be able to use abilities and move about to survive.</blockquote>Thanks for looking into this Timetravelling.I guess my lingering concern is the idea that even with a 15sec individual cooldown for the wearer, AE classes will still run the risk of this effect being nearly chain-proc'd on them from seperate targets in a large skirmish.Is there a possibility of maybe adding a reasonable cool-down for the target of the proc as well to prevent that scenario? Like maybe making the effect something like:15sec duration with a 3sec daze and an interrupt upon termination?OR (totally switching gears because I just had this thought)...what about solving the issue by making these procs triggered by offense instead of defense?It seems kinda out of whack IMO that a defensive proc(ie one that's triggered by incoming dmg, requiring no work or effort on the part of the wearer) should be so powerful - effecting not only the attacker's fight against the adorn wearer but also anyone else they attack while the detrimental is on them. Am I crazy in thinking this?

Notsovilepriest

05-03-2010, 04:38 AM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>timetravelling wrote:</cite><blockquote>thanks for the very specific and clear feedback!In looking at ways to make these desirable but not frustration-inducing, I changed them internally to be a 3s daze + an interrupt instead of a 3s stifle.That way even in AE situations, you may have your autoattack temporarily disabled but should still be able to use abilities and move about to survive.</blockquote>Thanks for looking into this Timetravelling.I guess my lingering concern is the idea that even with a 15sec individual cooldown for the wearer, AE classes will still run the risk of this effect being nearly chain-proc'd on them from seperate targets in a large skirmish.Is there a possibility of maybe adding a reasonable cool-down for the target of the proc as well to prevent that scenario? Like maybe making the effect a 15sec duration with a 3sec daze and an interrupt upon termination?</blockquote>No, You already got a crusade to [Removed for Content] already weak adorns, dont' make them weaker, Holy crap. If you proc it, You can't be Dazed again for 6 seconds, because thats how immunity timers work. so you can't be "Chain" any CC'ed since upon the applying of a type of CC, the target gains an immunity of 2x (Duration of the effect for PvP, Based on the Ohilin Post a bit ago). There is an exception in which, any AA that ups the duration of a CC will apply the upp'ed duration, but only apply the x2 base duration of the CC.

Seolta

05-03-2010, 05:09 AM

Ssofa, thanks for the info re: the CC immunity timer. Do we know for sure if CC Procs offer the same immunity? Even so, I don't think the idea of still potentially being Dazed 1/3 of the time in a fight is an acceptable situation for most people.You might want to say that it would never happen, but wading into a large skirmish and dropping multiple AE DoTs(both spell and CA) which tick every 4sec + AE Auto attacks (during the 3 sec immunity) would surely cause this situation to arise more often than you might think.

Dareena

05-03-2010, 10:40 AM

Timetravelling:Based on your comments about your internal changes, I want to state the situation out loud to make sure that I understand things.Example:I'm playing my Brigand main. The purpose of the Scout archetype adornment is to help us from getting killed / locked down by ranged casters. As an unreliable fail safe, I could still see myself potentially taking this adornment. However under this change, my anti-caster Stifle proc has now been replaced with a Daze proc (with an Interrupt upon termination?). At which point, my anti-caster defensive adornment is now almost completely worthless. Preventing your average caster's auto attack is pointless. (Yes, there are some classes which this could benefit from. But protecting against melee damage was never the point of the Scout adornment.)So am I understand things correctly that the new point of the anti-caster Scout archetype adornment is to only toy with Crusader, Bard, and melee spec Priest auto attacks? Umm... I would have likely bought to Scout adornment in its original form. But why in the world would I ever buy this revised Scout adornment? It's already been warped enough to ignore its original purpose and now only exists to prevent non-caster incoming dps. Is this how an anti-caster adornment is supposed to work?

Dareena

05-03-2010, 11:19 AM

To add to my previous post, I'm just want to say how confussed I am about this change. The purpose of the Scout adornment was to help them deal with the 16 caster classes in this game. (Now it's debately just how "caster" the Bard and Crusader archetypes are, but that's a discussion for another thread.) Just after the proposed Dev change, the adornment will now be designed to deal with 5.5 classes. (For the purposes of debate, I consider each melee spec Priest class to equal 1/2 a class since it's only one of their two potential AA paths.)So we're going from the protection against 16 classes to a crippled form of protection against 5.5 classes? What the heck? I can't even think of any scout player that I know who would ever buy this revised adornment. It will be a subject of ridicule and mocking amongst the scout community. Well, perhaps some people would still take it to deal with the hordes of Crusaders who are still blatantly running amok in the BGs. But even this situation wouldn't really help since the issues from Crusaders aren't coming from their auto attack damage.I mean, at least give the Scouts a revised adornment if you truly want to gut punch us that badly. Why not give the Scouts the same Mutilation proc as the Fighters. Or maybe some kind of debuff proc. You're the dev Timetravelling, so I'll leave the details up to you. But the Scout archetype adornment deserves to be at least vaguely viable.

Valind

05-03-2010, 11:40 AM

Is there any risk of us actually getting access to those red adornments? You know, the ones that are actually useful? I'm sorry, double effectiveness yellow adorments are nice and all, but its not those ones that we actually want. 10% extra trigger chance on Blood Rage is ALOT better than 2% crit bonus. Removing a concentration slot on a buff for bards is alot better than 2% flurry. Extra potency on your heals is alot better than 3% reuse speed. Im sorry, but those generic red adornments are just not going to be good enough to compensate for all the procs and the other red adornments on raid gear. It seems like you're trying to force PvPers (BGers) to raid to compete. This is exactly what the PvEers were crying about! Don't force us to BG to compete in raids. Why is it OK the other way around?As a Berserker, Im pretty disapointed by the 'extra' adornment we got. Our job in group PvP is to taunt things. This adornment should have been a taunt-proc, not a re-named mutilation proc.Here's a suggestion:Focus: Fighter's Prowess.- When Equiped: - Adds the following effect to the fighter's primary avoidance check ability. - When target takes any damage this has a 25% chance to cast provoke on attacker. - Forces Target to change their selected target to caster.There you go, an adornment which I would actually use. Allows you to select one person in your group and taunt anyone who attacks them. It fits nicely with the intended purpose of a fighter, to protect their group. It doesn't lock their target, so its not completely OP, but it does allow you to protect your healer a bit better.Another suggestion would include proccing a stoneskin on the person instead of a taunt. People can keep beating on your 'friend' but at a reduced effectiveness.

Oakum

05-03-2010, 01:08 PM

Will the priest focus even work? I know that when I cast the warden Cyclone aa spell, it does nothing in bg. Cast it as approaching fight, button greys out, scouts hits with their chain and 4 or 5 seconds later I am dead with the 10 second protection from all damage doing nothing to protect me. Sometimes it seems to work but that just may be that I am not targeted though as, for example, you hit the top of the center tower and tanks ect actually taunt or they go after the softer mages.Is the Fighter exploit where they taunt and then FD to leave taunted people stuck with an unclearable blank taunt lock being fixed? Should not all taunts be cleared if the taunter is "Dead"?I dont see the 10 sec interupt free from doing that much for priest except when a spell that interupts once a second lands to be honest when the average scout (non bard) and some fighters and mages, bards and chanters can kill a druid in less then 10 seconds from full health unless someone taunts them off us when it expires anyway.Will that prevent a priest from being bashed/kicked ect and interupted from moving? If it doesnt allow a priest to cast on the move, it wont work.

EvilAstroboy

05-03-2010, 03:15 PM

Im pretty disappointed in the Blue adorns. I was hoping for meaningful class specific ones. The copy of the generic red adorns, fine. Stuff like Illuminate making the group immune to target forcing, or adding stuns / detargets / pvp damage reduction to class abilities.But the archtype ones are just... myeah. Reactive crowd control? How about no, leave the crowd control to class abilities.

Bassman

05-03-2010, 05:44 PM

<cite>EvilAstroboy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Im pretty disappointed in the Blue adorns. I was hoping for meaningful class specific ones. The copy of the generic red adorns, fine. Stuff like Illuminate making the group immune to target forcing, or adding stuns / detargets / pvp damage reduction to class abilities.But the archtype ones are just... myeah. Reactive crowd control? How about no, leave the crowd control to class abilities.</blockquote>PVP gear should have red adornment clones to be able to compete with raided gear. Just because I bang my head against a wall for hours and learn a script doesn't mean I'm any good at pvp. In fact, I'd go as far to say let the blue adornments be clones of the red and only allow them to work in PVP.

Tehom

05-03-2010, 05:58 PM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ssofa, thanks for the info re: the CC immunity timer. Do we know for sure if CC Procs offer the same immunity? Even so, I don't think the idea of still potentially being Dazed 1/3 of the time in a fight is an acceptable situation for most people.You might want to say that it would never happen, but wading into a large skirmish and dropping multiple AE DoTs(both spell and CA) which tick every 4sec + AE Auto attacks (during the 3 sec immunity) would surely cause this situation to arise more often than you might think.</blockquote>Think of it this way - if you, as the tank, AE a bunch when wading into a large group of enemies and cause all their defensive procs to fire off on you, then they're all wasted while they have their cooldown timer. You just prevented them from proccing on your dps classes, so you're clearing the way for them to clean up. You should really -want- them to all fire on you simultaneously, since they're it's not like 3 or 4 stifles/dazes on you does any more than one, you get the immunity timer, and no one else with you is hit.Personally, given the fairly high chance of them being wasted in that way, I think the procs are actually too weak, since from a survivability standpoint you need to balance taking one against 5 pvp crit mit, and that's a dubious tradeoff.As far as red adorns vs blue adorns - yeah, I wouldn't mind pvp only versions of red adorn effects for pvp gear, though mechanically I'm not sure if that could really work on some things. For example, how would you have a single target buff go groupwide while only in pvp combat? As far as raid gear vs pvp gear in general, I think the extreme survivability edge you can get via blue adorns will be an enormous swing. I was thinking I might only wear one or two red slots ultimately if that given how much I'd be weakening my surivability by contrast.

Novusod

05-03-2010, 06:54 PM

Is an SK really complaining that ALL the adorns are not specifically tailored to their needs. Really? I mean really is your class not powerful enough for you?Come on this thread is absurd. Everyone knows it. Please change the title of this thread to: QQ it is unfair that 4 to 6 people proc'ing hits can kill an SK with these adorns.

Seolta

05-03-2010, 08:28 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is an SK really complaining that ALL the adorns are not specifically tailored to their needs. Really? I mean really is your class not powerful enough for you?Come on this thread is absurd. Everyone knows it. Please change the title of this thread to: QQ it is unfair that 4 to 6 people proc'ing hits can kill an SK with these adorns.</blockquote>Actually this is about adorns inadvertently hitting several subclasses and classes ridiculously hard while having little to no impact on the survivability of other subclasses/classes such as your own. I guess that's why you're trolling for a thread derail.

Cigam

05-03-2010, 09:16 PM

Try this... SK walks into a group of 2 casters and 2 scouts... hits deathmarch and nothing effects him LOL are you serious?

Novusod

05-03-2010, 10:07 PM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is an SK really complaining that ALL the adorns are not specifically tailored to their needs. Really? I mean really is your class not powerful enough for you?Come on this thread is absurd. Everyone knows it. Please change the title of this thread to: QQ it is unfair that 4 to 6 people proc'ing hits can kill an SK with these adorns.</blockquote>Actually this is about adorns inadvertently hitting several subclasses and classes ridiculously hard while having little to no impact on the survivability of other subclasses/classes such as your own. I guess that's why you're trolling for a thread derail.</blockquote>The difference between my class and yours is if I run into 6 people solo I expect to die. If I had a dime for everytime I saw an SK in BG stand up to 6+ people and take forever to die I would be a rich man my now. SKs are so used to never dying that think they have a god given right to be invincible. Well I got news for you the world does not revolve arround the the SK.

Yimway

05-04-2010, 12:46 PM

Notsovilepriest

05-04-2010, 01:02 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>timetravelling wrote:</cite><blockquote>thanks for the very specific and clear feedback!In looking at ways to make these desirable but not frustration-inducing, I changed them internally to be a 3s daze + an interrupt instead of a 3s stifle.That way even in AE situations, you may have your autoattack temporarily disabled but should still be able to use abilities and move about to survive.</blockquote>Scrap them entirely and go back to the table.Adding CC proc effects is the absolute worst idea for gameplay. Go back to effects that lower effectiveness or increase effectiveness and remove from your mind ever adding additional effects that remove the ability to control your character.</blockquote>Why? CC is one of the best effects to have on PvP/BG gear, so long as it's not a massive %. Healers can cure, Pally can cure, mages can cure most CCs off the healers to get them off the rest. CC isn't a massive issue and since most proc durations are short taht have them, there is no reason not to have them.

Tehom

05-04-2010, 02:02 PM

While I agree, I think you can pretty much accomplish the same thing with large potency/crit bonus debuffs on players as a stifle without players feeling they've lost control of their character. A good portion of the playerbase probably wouldn't even realize they're massively debuffed for relatively short durations and effectively accomplishing nothing when they mash their buttons, while they'd be greatly frustrated by CC.

Yimway

05-04-2010, 02:03 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why? CC is one of the best effects to have on PvP/BG gear, so long as it's not a massive %. Healers can cure, Pally can cure, mages can cure most CCs off the healers to get them off the rest. CC isn't a massive issue and since most proc durations are short taht have them, there is no reason not to have them.</blockquote>The amount of time engaged in combat that I don't have the ability to control my character is already too high. With 50% of the classes I go up against having even more chances of adding more time to the durration I can't control my character will be enough to get me to stop playing.It is far better in terms of game enjoyment to vastly debuff the characters abilities than to remove control entirely.

Oakum

05-04-2010, 03:39 PM

<cite>Foolsfolly wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow, those are extremely unbalanced in the mage vs scout department. A static 8% chance to proc against both?The problem is that scouts are spamming around 4 smaller attacks per second, while sorcerers use big slow nukes which land maybe once every 2-4 seconds. This means scouts will end up dazed about half of the time, while mages are dazed maybe 5% of the time.Also, what the bloody hell, an interrupt? A reactive interrupt? So, a mage nukes me, his spell does it's damage, then my reactive procs and interrupts what, the spell that he already finished casting? You really didn't think this out very well did you?It's bad enough scouts get their damage reduced to 0 by static damage reducers, but now you're introducing effects which hurt scouts ten times more than mages, and then you change it so it doesn't affect mages at all. Stop all the mage favoritism!</blockquote>Lol, Got to love that last statement. From what I have seen if you have a group of mages with a healer and tank vs a group of scouts with a healer and tank, the scouts win everytime in Gears and any of the BG's for that matter.I think what they are really saying is dont make scouts less then the best classes in PVP, lol.

Thinwizzy

05-04-2010, 05:00 PM

<cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I agree, I think you can pretty much accomplish the same thing with large potency/crit bonus debuffs on players as a stifle without players feeling they've lost control of their character. A good portion of the playerbase probably wouldn't even realize they're massively debuffed for relatively short durations and effectively accomplishing nothing when they mash their buttons, while they'd be greatly frustrated by CC.</blockquote>So procs need to be changed because a good portion of the playerbase is terrible and doesn't pay attention to what is going on?

Yimway

05-04-2010, 06:47 PM

<cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I agree, I think you can pretty much accomplish the same thing with large potency/crit bonus debuffs on players as a stifle without players feeling they've lost control of their character. A good portion of the playerbase probably wouldn't even realize they're massively debuffed for relatively short durations and effectively accomplishing nothing when they mash their buttons, while they'd be greatly frustrated by CC.</blockquote>Yes, this was the point I was trying to make.The negative impact on the players experience being severely debuffed is far less frustrating than simply being neutered by a debuff.You can still have equally powerful items without over abusing frustrating game mechanics.Or you can be lazy and overload players with CC effects.

Cyra

05-04-2010, 07:18 PM

I'm wondering if I am in the right place. I've been logged in and Q'd for battlegrounds on test copy for hours at a time and have not been able to get into a game. I've been giving up my "live" game time to try this out and give my feedback, and so far all I've seen is the new adornments and armor on the vendors and folks dueling on the Halas docks. My guild thinks I'm dead.I came to test specifically to see if the 15% addition to mage damage was going to be enough to make the wizard class worthwhile to play anymore in BG's. So far I haven't seen a single game.The BG armor and adornments can't be bought without tokens. If no one is playing how can we win tokens to test this stuff? Is everyone just looking at the procs on the adornments and going Boo-hoo? I'd like to see the stuff in action before it goes to the live server but what I'd like the most is for the current broken stuff to be fixed BEFORE new items come streaming into the game to shift the balance all over again.

Tehom

05-04-2010, 07:56 PM

<cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I agree, I think you can pretty much accomplish the same thing with large potency/crit bonus debuffs on players as a stifle without players feeling they've lost control of their character. A good portion of the playerbase probably wouldn't even realize they're massively debuffed for relatively short durations and effectively accomplishing nothing when they mash their buttons, while they'd be greatly frustrated by CC.</blockquote>So procs need to be changed because a good portion of the playerbase is terrible and doesn't pay attention to what is going on?</blockquote>Frankly, yes. It'd accomplish the same thing either way, but one way is more fun to a fairly large portion of the playerbase who play more casually and get turned off by CC effects that they find frustrating.

Yimway

05-05-2010, 11:44 AM

<cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I agree, I think you can pretty much accomplish the same thing with large potency/crit bonus debuffs on players as a stifle without players feeling they've lost control of their character. A good portion of the playerbase probably wouldn't even realize they're massively debuffed for relatively short durations and effectively accomplishing nothing when they mash their buttons, while they'd be greatly frustrated by CC.</blockquote>So procs need to be changed because a good portion of the playerbase is terrible and doesn't pay attention to what is going on?</blockquote>Frankly, yes. It'd accomplish the same thing either way, but one way is more fun to a fairly large portion of the playerbase who play more casually and get turned off by CC effects that they find frustrating.</blockquote>It is severely more frustrating staring at a screen you can't push any buttons for than being able to still control your character but only hitting for 10% effectiveness.The net result is almost the same, but the frustration level is significantly lower for the majority of the player base. SoE devs should understand this already though.

Notsovilepriest

05-05-2010, 01:59 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I agree, I think you can pretty much accomplish the same thing with large potency/crit bonus debuffs on players as a stifle without players feeling they've lost control of their character. A good portion of the playerbase probably wouldn't even realize they're massively debuffed for relatively short durations and effectively accomplishing nothing when they mash their buttons, while they'd be greatly frustrated by CC.</blockquote>So procs need to be changed because a good portion of the playerbase is terrible and doesn't pay attention to what is going on?</blockquote>Frankly, yes. It'd accomplish the same thing either way, but one way is more fun to a fairly large portion of the playerbase who play more casually and get turned off by CC effects that they find frustrating.</blockquote>It is severely more frustrating staring at a screen you can't push any buttons for than being able to still control your character but only hitting for 10% effectiveness.The net result is almost the same, but the frustration level is significantly lower for the majority of the player base. SoE devs should understand this already though.</blockquote>Frustrate them till they quit and go back to WoW. CC is part of the game and a good form of Pvp survivability boost. There are ways to counter all of the forms of CC and there is no need to carebear CC to make it less frustrating. PvP CC is supposed to be, just that, frustrating.

Valdar

05-06-2010, 03:17 AM

I don't get it.Why not just keep it simple and make blue adorns the same as red, but not functional in pve. As it seems that red adorns will remain functional in pvp having 2 different sets will create an imbalance that will have both sides complaining that the other's toys are overpowered and should be nerfed, which means that I'll have to read hundreds of posts of QQ'ing instead of working :pLet's keep it simple please....

Yimway

05-06-2010, 12:06 PM

<cite>Phaust@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't get it.Why not just keep it simple and make blue adorns the same as red, but not functional in pve. As it seems that red adorns will remain functional in pvp having 2 different sets will create an imbalance that will have both sides complaining that the other's toys are overpowered and should be nerfed, which means that I'll have to read hundreds of posts of QQ'ing instead of working :pLet's keep it simple please....</blockquote>A good starting point for pvp adornments would have been taking red ones, doubling the bonus and locking them to pvp only.You still needed some flavor added in though, and the stackable mutiliation type proc is going in the right dirrection for that.

Dareena

05-06-2010, 12:57 PM

I would also agree that Mutilation is the correct way to go. Right now, I'm only getting x1 proc ability from my jewelry as a Brigand. But I find myself tempted to try to get the Mutilation weapons too. Dual wielding those weapons (while also using the Throwing weapon) could be potentially interesting. If we could add Mutilation as a universal Blue adornment, it would be an interesting choice. Right now using Mutilation items have a tendency to lower my over all dps, but will give me a superior edge in heal bot battles. (Especially when trying to tear down a tank or healer who just won't die.) It would be nice to have to make these kinds of gear decisions on the fly and even switch out sets mid BG scenerio.