Time to take the light off SKs..... [Archive]

Bruener

04-29-2010, 12:22 PM

Alright I am sick of all of a sudden a few posts popping up on the fighter boards here by people that just can't learn to play their own class to its full potential. Specifically instead they are calling for nerfs to a class that did take a step down into SF and are just plain well balanced. So I guess when something works others have to try and break it. Here are some extremely important points to keep in mind.This is not TSO. Yes TSO at the end of T8 when everything including mitigation was extremely easy to cap SKs started to shine. They were stepping up with good DPS and good agro and since the survivability wasn't much of a factor that far into diminishing returns what a great all around tank. However that was T8 and with T9 things have changed a lot. A lot of the other fighters received some very nice tools to do their job extremely well. Guards are the rock solid heavy hit takers in the game once again and with threat crit'ing and tools like group moderate they received some much needed help. Brawlers are totally going to be the OP'd class when people start realizing their potential. They can easily reach the same mitigation levels as plate tanks and their avoidance is much higher along with added snap agro tools that other plate tanks lost. Bezerkers, similar to Brawlers, most people just have not gotten a chance to see their potential in action...probably because most betrayed a rerolled a long time ago. 100% AE auto with a beastly 2h is pretty insane though.Finally the issue of Paladins. People that do not recognize that this class is even more well rounded than SKs need to wake up. Paladin DPS is equal to SK DPS. They were given the tool of Stonewall with a fast recast. And can easily heal like a half-healer. Oh, and yeah they still have Amends which was a tool for agro since Paladins were supposed to be at the bottom for DPS and self generated agro. Now that self agro generation is just as good as other tanks the ability is way out of whack. Of course, Paladins continue to point at SKs hoping to take any heat off themselves.In all across the board fighter class are more balanced than they ever have been. Yes there is always room for a few tweaks here and there. But constantly calling for nerfs on a class because they are operating correctly and because you are completely jealous from last X-pac is getting old. SKs were at the bottom for years and finally got the fixes they need. As usual it went a little too far the other way in TSO but now that it is SF things have toned down and really when you look at it some of these other fighter classes excel just as much, some even a lot more in certain areas. All that other fighters are doing now in Live is just like they did in Beta. Trying to make themselves sound like the poor cripple that needs major buffing and calling for nerfs at the same time because we are tanks and the spots are limited. Its our personality to be the best always and some just love to kick at others to get themselves there.

Raahl

04-29-2010, 12:30 PM

Sony, Please fix tank classes that do high DPS while having maximum survivability. Most tank classes trade survivability for DPS and vice-versa.

Ambrin

04-29-2010, 01:03 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sony, Please fix tank classes that do high DPS while having maximum survivability. Most tank classes trade survivability for DPS and vice-versa.</blockquote>Yeah, I think the fighters are overall much better balanced this expansion. The only thing that (I think) needs to change for crusaders is making them choose between DPS and survivability.I don't really think crusaders need a big all around nerf, but they do need something to put them in line with the other fighters. There have been some suggestions such as changing Knights Stance to only affect 2-handers and while they may not be perfect, at least there is a recognition of the problem with people making suggestions to rectify it.

Bruener

04-29-2010, 01:04 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sony, Please fix tank classes that do high DPS while having maximum survivability. Most tank classes trade survivability for DPS and vice-versa.</blockquote>What one does? The one that has the most survivability?Seriously look around at the other tank classes right now. And for max DPS SKs definitely have to give up survivability. Going 2h is definitely a hit to survivability. Spec'ing with the DPS pieces and not the +mit pieces definitely gives up survivability. But keep living in the clouds....

Raahl

04-29-2010, 02:11 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sony, Please fix tank classes that do high DPS while having maximum survivability. Most tank classes trade survivability for DPS and vice-versa.</blockquote>What one does? The one that has the most survivability?Seriously look around at the other tank classes right now. And for max DPS SKs definitely have to give up survivability. Going 2h is definitely a hit to survivability. Spec'ing with the DPS pieces and not the +mit pieces definitely gives up survivability. But keep living in the clouds....</blockquote>Well that would be the one you are trying to take the light off of I guess. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I said high DPS not max. When a SK tank can maximize their survivability (Sword and Board) and still out damage another tank that is dual/2H wielding, there is an issue.

RafaelSmith

04-29-2010, 02:21 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote>Alright I am sick of all of a sudden a few posts popping up on the fighter boards here by people that just can't learn to play their own class to its full potential. Specifically instead they are calling for nerfs to a class that did take a step down into SF and are just plain well balanced. So I guess when something works others have to try and break it. Here are some extremely important points to keep in mind.This is not TSO. Yes TSO at the end of T8 when everything including mitigation was extremely easy to cap SKs started to shine. They were stepping up with good DPS and good agro and since the survivability wasn't much of a factor that far into diminishing returns what a great all around tank. However that was T8 and with T9 things have changed a lot. A lot of the other fighters received some very nice tools to do their job extremely well. Guards are the rock solid heavy hit takers in the game once again and with threat crit'ing and tools like group moderate they received some much needed help. Brawlers are totally going to be the OP'd class when people start realizing their potential. They can easily reach the same mitigation levels as plate tanks and their avoidance is much higher along with added snap agro tools that other plate tanks lost. Bezerkers, similar to Brawlers, most people just have not gotten a chance to see their potential in action...probably because most betrayed a rerolled a long time ago. 100% AE auto with a beastly 2h is pretty insane though.Finally the issue of Paladins. People that do not recognize that this class is even more well rounded than SKs need to wake up. Paladin DPS is equal to SK DPS. They were given the tool of Stonewall with a fast recast. And can easily heal like a half-healer. Oh, and yeah they still have Amends which was a tool for agro since Paladins were supposed to be at the bottom for DPS and self generated agro. Now that self agro generation is just as good as other tanks the ability is way out of whack. Of course, Paladins continue to point at SKs hoping to take any heat off themselves.In all across the board fighter class are more balanced than they ever have been. Yes there is always room for a few tweaks here and there. But constantly calling for nerfs on a class because they are operating correctly and because you are completely jealous from last X-pac is getting old. SKs were at the bottom for years and finally got the fixes they need. As usual it went a little too far the other way in TSO but now that it is SF things have toned down and really when you look at it some of these other fighter classes excel just as much, some even a lot more in certain areas. All that other fighters are doing now in Live is just like they did in Beta. Trying to make themselves sound like the poor cripple that needs major buffing and calling for nerfs at the same time because we are tanks and the spots are limited. Its our personality to be the best always and some just love to kick at others to get themselves there.</blockquote>Wow you started your own thread. Getting nervous that SOE might actually realize they 'buffed' SKs too far? I have yet to see a SK or any crusader for that matter "give up" anywhere near what they should to put out the DPS they have.If by "across the board" you mean across the entire spectrum of the game then ...Fighters ARE NOT more balanced....the further and further down the spectrum you go the more and more you see just how stupidly OP SK is. Tanking as an SK even a bad player in crap gear is much too easy. Step out of your little bubble and go out as a high DPS class and do some PuGs...you will see just how ridiculous even poorly geared Crusaders are.Yeah guards got some tweaks with SF that lessoned the frustration of TSO but it didnt change anything with regards to how OP SKs are by comparison.Balance if you really know what that means is not what we have now.Lets look at the absolute bottom gearwise....Take a 90 Guard in T2/T3 shard gear......and a 90 SK in T2/T3 shard gear....the SK can be an idiot and still tank any instance in the game with any group with very little trouble.......A Guard wouldnt even be considered for most instances.While you may be "balanced" in terms of where SKs fit with regards to Raids your grossly OP for everything else. Thats not proper balance.

Obadiah

04-29-2010, 02:21 PM

Meh. Why worry about taking the light off of them. They aren't getting nerfed. They've saved that for others.In PVE you may be right; things may be more balanced than ever. If they are skewed one way or another it's not nearly as bad as it was in RoK or TSO.In BGs there is a direct correlation between the number of Crusaders in my group/raid and my win %. That should become even more distinct now that those other pesky classes (e.g. Berserkers, Templars, Defilers, Mystics) are being nerfed.

Bruener

04-29-2010, 04:16 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Meh. Why worry about taking the light off of them. They aren't getting nerfed. They've saved that for others.In PVE you may be right; things may be more balanced than ever. If they are skewed one way or another it's not nearly as bad as it was in RoK or TSO.In BGs there is a direct correlation between the number of Crusaders in my group/raid and my win %. That should become even more distinct now that those other pesky classes (e.g. Berserkers, Templars, Defilers, Mystics) are being nerfed.</blockquote>You know I think your probably right. I hate BGs and PvP and I hate the fact that because of it things have to be changed to classes. Why should PvP and BGs have any affect on how a toon plays in PvE? SOE is now making adjustments to classes based on this. Example the change to the red DM adornment for SKs. If BGs did not exist I guarantee the adornment would never have been changed. Heck yeah it was OP'd in BGs and everybody knew it. But outside of BGs in the raid setting where you get the gear for the adornment the adornment was less than mediocre.SOE should never balance PvE based on PvP. It doesn't work because an ability in PvE that is where it should be in usefulness can be completely OP'd in PvP.To the above posters I made this post in response to the few posts that recently popped up from individuals that just don't have a clue about how things really are for fighters. I guess you can just say I am trying to open people's eyes to how things actually are not how they are perceived atm. Prime example being that Paladins are an even stronger class than SKs right now but everybody tries to ignore that fact. Also the fact that because nobody seems to play with good Bezerkers people just don't realize how good they are currently. The same is true for Brawlers with the buffing they got in SF. Come next xpac when the curves are even easier to hit caps just wait to see how invincible Brawlers are going to be. And finally Guards. Guards that can block how many hits on average in a minute? Guards that have no agro problems at all except with other tanks that want to give them trouble.So yeah, I am sick fo the very small squeaky wheel making noise on false basis.

Phelon_Skellhound

04-29-2010, 08:19 PM

Not sure about brawlers too well.. But they got soooo much better this xpansion... i agree that the zerker is the class to be in this expansion... far as raiding goes our zerker pulls off incredible numbers.. I used to MT in TSO but he does a far superior job as MT in SF now hehe... kudos to the class in making a dash ahead <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Careful what you ask for... If I have to sacrifice agro/DPS in sword & board Raid Mobs then Zerkers have to take bigger hits dual weild tanking Raid Mobs in offensive stance... cuz ours does just that compared to me in the same stance.. We have cleared EZ mode lair, Palace Theer rune 1, and up to PC in labs and he goes defensive sword & board on only 2 named that i can think of... As far as I know its far more balanced than u think.. perfect? no... still requires tweaking? yes... Am I griping? hell no..I dont play BG's either, so PVP wise I cant comment... Fix PVP version of the classes but leave PVE alone... or at least till everyone has had to time to mess with the aa points to fully recognize their potential

YummiOger

04-29-2010, 09:14 PM

OK Bruener, u know me. iv been playing this game sense day 1 as a SK and in KoS i made a Zerk then betrayed to Guard. SK tanked in eq1 for 5 years before eq2 even opened. so i know about tanks. Very well .....on PvE: 1 to 5 mobs hitting for 15k+ thru 2k individually, and Solo Play. Mob Health ranging from several thousand to Millions HPs.Yes, tanks are closer to balanced then they have ever been in eq2 history. Guards have gained alot of suvivability, the most among tanks, mainly thru Stoneskins. Very strong the closer to 1 damage source, strength deminishes as u pile on more damage sources. Zerks have massive AE control and potential for awsome dps on 3+ targets. Also uses % damage reduction and reactive wards/heals to mitigate multiple sourced damage input. Stronger for 3+ targets.Shadowknights use multiple forms of taps and drains to offset the damage intake they are taking. I think every1 knows the abilities being pointed out by the community. SK threat generation was nerfed somewhat in SF with the nerf of Sacrament. But AE damage with Sks is still high on the totem pole while tanking. THATS the problem with BOTH crusaders in PvE. and the only point in PvE i can think that should be adressed. Crusaders DPS with Sword and Board. Adjust the DPS potential of Equipting a Sheild and in PvE the tanks are pretty balanced IMO.Now for PvP and BG: Multiple targets (4 to 10) attacking for 800-4k each. and the Health of each target being 10-20K.Targets are EZer to kill in BG/PvP then in PvE. personally I look at PvP/BG as fighting a AE fight with many adds. Think Overking raid or Gynok. best analogy i can come up with.Sks and Zerks are very strong, to the point of Over Powered due to their natural PvE build. For Zerks, recently Blood Frenzy was nerfed on test to 10 procs on zerkers due to its 4% reactive heal (2.8% listed but crits for 4%), moderate effect in PvE. But that 1000 point hit every melee with 6 scouts/fighters hitting makes the zerk nigh unkillable. plus Adrenaline on multiple attackers drasticlly reduces damage input. Combined with 100% AE melee and impressive burst damage on 6+ targets zerks are VERY strong in PvP/BG. They can DPS AE kill a group of players quite quickly if they are not prepared.SKs have similar issues. on a counting ability basis, SKs do have less Damage mitigating abilities then some of the other tanks, but what they do have is VERY effective in AE fights. 100% Reposte (counter attack) for 15s, 10-12k ward every 2 mins, AE lifetaps for 15-25k returns, Reaver healing, Bloodletter x3, Divine Aura (no damage under 50% of max health), Deathmarch. All VERY effective when fighting low HP AE encounters. They can DPS AE kill a group of players quite quickly if they are not prepared and are quite hard to kill.Pallies i cant really speak on, but i can tell u they can self heal more then a group can DPS due to the lower damage output in PvP/BG. A pally+warden can and will stand in ur Ganak camp and will be extremely difficult to kill as they march out with ur Flag.The Problem with Guardians is PvP/BG is the POLAR OPPOSITE of what they are built for. there are no Uber Single targets to mitigate. The stoneskins are quickly ate thru due to the numbers of damage sources. The superior aggro abilities of the Guard often become its downfall and they attract more attention then they can handle. No ability i have found in a Guards lineup is very effective in PvP/BG that increases survivability or DPS. Guard AE Dps is laughable as is common knowledge. Agian, not what guards were built for. The guards lack of healing means they are limited in their roles in PvP/BG. They can not take on a group or anything with range DPS. Guards must stick beside a healer to just live. A limitation the other tanks currently do not suffer.The Major problem between tanks is PvP/BG, not PvE. Sure some changes in PvE could happen and tank balance would be very close. BUT in PvP/BG its night and day between some tanks and others, no comparision.PS. on a side note, im currently betraying my Guard to a Zerk as soon as i get 20 Kab Clusters. Im no longer raiding and thats the Strong nich for Guards, Raid Main Tank. All other game aspects (Group, PvP, BG, Solo) are better filled with AE abilities and some tanking utility.

Kota

04-30-2010, 06:06 AM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Meh. Why worry about taking the light off of them. They aren't getting nerfed. They've saved that for others.In PVE you may be right; things may be more balanced than ever. If they are skewed one way or another it's not nearly as bad as it was in RoK or TSO.In BGs there is a direct correlation between the number of Crusaders in my group/raid and my win %. That should become even more distinct now that those other pesky classes (e.g. Berserkers, Templars, Defilers, Mystics) are being nerfed.</blockquote>You know I think your probably right. I hate BGs and PvP and I hate the fact that because of it things have to be changed to classes. Why should PvP and BGs have any affect on how a toon plays in PvE? SOE is now making adjustments to classes based on this. Example the change to the red DM adornment for SKs. If BGs did not exist I guarantee the adornment would never have been changed. Heck yeah it was OP'd in BGs and everybody knew it. But outside of BGs in the raid setting where you get the gear for the adornment the adornment was less than mediocre.SOE should never balance PvE based on PvP. It doesn't work because an ability in PvE that is where it should be in usefulness can be completely OP'd in PvP.To the above posters I made this post in response to the few posts that recently popped up from individuals that just don't have a clue about how things really are for fighters. I guess you can just say I am trying to open people's eyes to how things actually are not how they are perceived atm. Prime example being that Paladins are an even stronger class than SKs right now but everybody tries to ignore that fact. Also the fact that because nobody seems to play with good Bezerkers people just don't realize how good they are currently. The same is true for Brawlers with the buffing they got in SF. Come next xpac when the curves are even easier to hit caps just wait to see how invincible Brawlers are going to be. And finally Guards. Guards that can block how many hits on average in a minute? Guards that have no agro problems at all except with other tanks that want to give them trouble.So yeah, I am sick fo the very small squeaky wheel making noise on false basis.</blockquote>the red adorn was only changed for pvp. and if you don't think sk's have a leg up in the dept of tanking and even dps'ing you are sorely mistaken, or just trying to defend an op status.

Darkonx

04-30-2010, 02:31 PM

<cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Meh. Why worry about taking the light off of them. They aren't getting nerfed. They've saved that for others.In PVE you may be right; things may be more balanced than ever. If they are skewed one way or another it's not nearly as bad as it was in RoK or TSO.In BGs there is a direct correlation between the number of Crusaders in my group/raid and my win %. That should become even more distinct now that those other pesky classes (e.g. Berserkers, Templars, Defilers, Mystics) are being nerfed.</blockquote>You know I think your probably right. I hate BGs and PvP and I hate the fact that because of it things have to be changed to classes. Why should PvP and BGs have any affect on how a toon plays in PvE? SOE is now making adjustments to classes based on this. Example the change to the red DM adornment for SKs. If BGs did not exist I guarantee the adornment would never have been changed. Heck yeah it was OP'd in BGs and everybody knew it. But outside of BGs in the raid setting where you get the gear for the adornment the adornment was less than mediocre.SOE should never balance PvE based on PvP. It doesn't work because an ability in PvE that is where it should be in usefulness can be completely OP'd in PvP.To the above posters I made this post in response to the few posts that recently popped up from individuals that just don't have a clue about how things really are for fighters. I guess you can just say I am trying to open people's eyes to how things actually are not how they are perceived atm. Prime example being that Paladins are an even stronger class than SKs right now but everybody tries to ignore that fact. Also the fact that because nobody seems to play with good Bezerkers people just don't realize how good they are currently. The same is true for Brawlers with the buffing they got in SF. Come next xpac when the curves are even easier to hit caps just wait to see how invincible Brawlers are going to be. And finally Guards. Guards that can block how many hits on average in a minute? Guards that have no agro problems at all except with other tanks that want to give them trouble.So yeah, I am sick fo the very small squeaky wheel making noise on false basis.</blockquote>the red adorn was only changed for pvp. and if you don't think sk's have a leg up in the dept of tanking and even dps'ing you are sorely mistaken, or just trying to defend an op status.</blockquote>You are wrong. It was changed both in PVP and PVE. Guardians are also better tanks than Shadowknight's in terms of survivability.

Kota

04-30-2010, 02:35 PM

the 'survivability' argument is pretty much a joke tbh. as evidenced by all the tanks with less survivability surviving all the time.

Landiin

04-30-2010, 05:23 PM

<cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>the 'survivability' argument is pretty much a joke tbh. as evidenced by all the tanks with less survivability surviving all the time.</blockquote>This ^^^

juggalo0385

04-30-2010, 06:37 PM

why is everyone complaining about a good tank he does high dps and survives so the group stays alive. I have out tanked many SKs beserkers and guardians with my pally. I didnt even have high dps I just used my taunts mostly. every group I have been in has never complained about my tanking either

Landiin

05-01-2010, 04:07 AM

<cite>juggalo0385 wrote:</cite><blockquote>why is everyone complaining about a good tank he does high dps and survives so the group stays alive. I have out tanked many SKs beserkers and guardians with my pally. I didnt even have high dps I just used my taunts mostly. every group I have been in has never complained about my tanking either</blockquote>When you say out tank what do you mean? You pull aggro off them? Are you the MT, if not then you are not a good tank at all for pulling aggro off the MT. Not saying your not a good tank but it don't hurt you play a class that is by the majority considered OP.

Rahatmattata

05-01-2010, 04:52 AM

<cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>When you say out tank what do you mean? You pull aggro off them? Are you the MT, if not then you are not a good tank at all for pulling aggro off the MT. Not saying your not a good tank but it don't hurt you play a class that is by the majority considered OP.</blockquote>Basically he is saying he's proud he can kick a man with no legs in the balls. That's what I got from it anyway. Maybe he is really ubah and can out-tank a bruiser too... cuz you know... that's hard for a paladin to do.

Hardain

05-01-2010, 09:57 AM

<cite>juggalo0385 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I didnt even have high dps I just used my Amends</blockquote>Fixed.

Nulgara

05-01-2010, 12:09 PM

hehe.. and here i am like a day later still trying to figure out [Removed for Content] out-tanked means.i mean did you like go into a zone with 5 of the exact same folks with a pali then with a zerker and then with a guardian and the 5 people with yas decided who "out-tanked" who.. I dont get it.did you come up on a mob and the guardian died then the zerker died and then somehow magically you ran up and and saved the frikin day?Seriosuly we need to have some sort of definitive definition on [Removed for Content] "out-tanked" means. I mean I know what tanking in and of itself means. taking the hits for the group living through and holding the mob. are you trying to tell me that the guardian or the zerker were unable to do that on ANY fight in the game?Perhaps you meant it was easier for you to watch you-tube while you were tanking cause you had amends on the assassin or the warlock?I jsut dont get it.. that one really requires and explanation

Wasuna

05-01-2010, 02:31 PM

Out-tanked =a) Held agro for the entire group so all DPS people can go all outb) Made it easy for the healer to keep you alivec) Provided DPS for the group casueIn your example you provided all but the DPS for the group. You only didn't provide the DPS becasue you didn't want to. Guardians have to work for agro, have to stay with our shiled (and no knights stance to help out) to remain a reasonably easy tank to heal and we have no hope of even coming close to providing the DPS a crusader could if they wanted to. All those Guardians out there that tank in offensive and DW are trying to compensate for deficencies for the Guardian as a tanking class and putting the load of this deficencey squarly on the healer. Healers prefer Crusaders, not warriors for this very reason. Guardians have to screw the healer to try and keep agro so therefore healers like crusaders.Now you know the problem that Breuner is trying to hide with this thread. He wanted Knights Stance changed so he could do even more DPS when he feels like it knowing he can easily hold agro without it in tanking mode. That would allow him to be a more than viable dps class and also be about to 'out tank' Guardians.As said many times, fighters are approaching balance in top end, full raid geared levels but as soon as you go down the chain a bit we are light years apart. Breuner agreed with this when he thought he might get boosted again but now he disagrees with cause people saw through the Knights Stance 'fix'.

Bruener

05-02-2010, 01:20 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote>Out-tanked =a) Held agro for the entire group so all DPS people can go all outb) Made it easy for the healer to keep you alivec) Provided DPS for the group casueIn your example you provided all but the DPS for the group. You only didn't provide the DPS becasue you didn't want to. Guardians have to work for agro, have to stay with our shiled (and no knights stance to help out) to remain a reasonably easy tank to heal and we have no hope of even coming close to providing the DPS a crusader could if they wanted to. All those Guardians out there that tank in offensive and DW are trying to compensate for deficencies for the Guardian as a tanking class and putting the load of this deficencey squarly on the healer. Healers prefer Crusaders, not warriors for this very reason. Guardians have to screw the healer to try and keep agro so therefore healers like crusaders.Now you know the problem that Breuner is trying to hide with this thread. He wanted Knights Stance changed so he could do even more DPS when he feels like it knowing he can easily hold agro without it in tanking mode. That would allow him to be a more than viable dps class and also be about to 'out tank' Guardians.As said many times, fighters are approaching balance in top end, full raid geared levels but as soon as you go down the chain a bit we are light years apart. Breuner agreed with this when he thought he might get boosted again but now he disagrees with cause people saw through the Knights Stance 'fix'.</blockquote>You seem to be completely mixing me up with somebody else. I posted Knights Stance should not be changed because of the very reason you are mentioning. Go read the KS post again and than come back here and try and talk about me. Balance at the raid end needs to stay the same....there are plenty of tweaks that can be done at the heroic level to "help" the supposedly helpless class out.....although I just don't get why things are so "bad" when any fighter class can tank any heroic zone EASILY.

Caitlynd

05-02-2010, 10:40 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sony, Please fix tank classes that do high DPS while having maximum survivability. Most tank classes trade survivability for DPS and vice-versa.</blockquote>What one does? The one that has the most survivability?Seriously look around at the other tank classes right now. And for max DPS SKs definitely have to give up survivability. Going 2h is definitely a hit to survivability. Spec'ing with the DPS pieces and not the +mit pieces definitely gives up survivability. But keep living in the clouds....</blockquote>Well that would be the one you are trying to take the light off of I guess. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />I said high DPS not max. When a SK tank can maximize their survivability (Sword and Board) and still out damage another tank that is dual/2H wielding, there is an issue. </blockquote> Really? You see I played a Paladin in WoW (this is relevant) that class had a tank spec and a DPS spec. Yet when I tanked I was NEVER last in DPS and in alot of cases was 2nd and sometimes 1st on the parse thanks to that classes AOE abilities.The same goes for this game, SK's are arguably the 2nd best AOE class in the game behind Warlocks, and in case you all have forgotten AOE hits multiple targets. You want other fighter classes to parse equal with SK's you will need to add more AOE ability to those classes (which wont happen due to the I dont want all classes to be the same syndrome).I know a Monk and Brusier that can out tank and out dps any SK I have ever seen just because SK's *learning* curve is equal to a 1st grade report card, does in no way make that class overpowered.

Nulgara

05-03-2010, 01:28 AM

i think perhaps your a slight bit confusedin no way is anyone saying that crusaders shoudlnt outparse all but zerkers on an ae fight wehn it comes ot the tanks. what most folks are saying is that no way in a frozen hell should an sk outparse a guardian bruiser or monk on a single target fight. and yes it happens ALL the time. thats the crus of the arguement though.. how do you lower that dps on a single target without gimping them..theres a few thoughts going around.. 1 being changing knights stance to be 2handed.. NO NEVER.. that woudl fix the survivability while doing insane auto attack dmg issues, but its SERIOusly BOOSTS sk dps when using a 2 hander which would put them even further ahead of the other tanks on single target dmg and light years ahead on aoe dmg.knights stance in no way shoudl ever do anything for 2 handed dmg. UNTIL EVERY TANK has an aa line for 2handed dmg.with the amount of haste that can be stacked up on folks and the inherently disgusting dmg capability of a 2 hander. couple that with ae auto attack if you add knights stance into the mix heh good luck to mages keeping up with an sk or a pali.its the worst idea i have ever heard it addresses one skimpy little part of a larger problem. it wont work at all.my personal thoughts make crusader aoe spell require multiple targets to reach full strength (which numerically is the only way to fix the dps disparity without handicapping crusaders) basically when a single target it is present the aoe spells that crusaders have would do about 40% of the dmg they do currently. 2 targets 50% 3 targets 70% 4+ targets same dmg as currently.

Darkonx

05-03-2010, 03:53 AM

<cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>i think perhaps your a slight bit confusedin no way is anyone saying that crusaders shoudlnt outparse all but zerkers on an ae fight wehn it comes ot the tanks. what most folks are saying is that no way in a frozen hell should an sk outparse a guardian bruiser or monk on a single target fight. and yes it happens ALL the time. thats the crus of the arguement though.. how do you lower that dps on a single target without gimping them..theres a few thoughts going around.. 1 being changing knights stance to be 2handed.. NO NEVER.. that woudl fix the survivability while doing insane auto attack dmg issues, but its SERIOusly BOOSTS sk dps when using a 2 hander which would put them even further ahead of the other tanks on single target dmg and light years ahead on aoe dmg.knights stance in no way shoudl ever do anything for 2 handed dmg. UNTIL EVERY TANK has an aa line for 2handed dmg.with the amount of haste that can be stacked up on folks and the inherently disgusting dmg capability of a 2 hander. couple that with ae auto attack if you add knights stance into the mix heh good luck to mages keeping up with an sk or a pali.its the worst idea i have ever heard it addresses one skimpy little part of a larger problem. it wont work at all.my personal thoughts make crusader aoe spell require multiple targets to reach full strength (which numerically is the only way to fix the dps disparity without handicapping crusaders) basically when a single target it is present the aoe spells that crusaders have would do about 40% of the dmg they do currently. 2 targets 50% 3 targets 70% 4+ targets same dmg as currently.</blockquote>You mention every tank having an AA line. Every tank OTHER than Crusaders already has 20 crit bonus to all attacks over Crusaders. It doesn't even cost AA! Your idea about AOE spells is awful, and would result in a nerf so large that the majority of raiding SK's would quit, due to the fact that 80% of raids are single target.

BChizzle

05-03-2010, 03:59 AM

Aule

05-03-2010, 06:55 AM

Worth noting on the whole sk's are still overpowered line of thought is that sk's still bring the most benefit to their group as far as buffs go. 10% reuse 10% cast haste 8% potency (group buff) 5% spell potency (raid buff) group proc on melee death march (possibly more, I'm tired right now) Bruisers, for comparison, have 5% melee potency (raid buff) and that's it. We get that you want your class kept in top position Bruenor, it's been obvious that's been your agenda based on your posts throughout the Beta process through present. That's fine and all, but just admit that's what you're doing.

Nulgara

05-03-2010, 09:39 AM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>i think perhaps your a slight bit confusedin no way is anyone saying that crusaders shoudlnt outparse all but zerkers on an ae fight wehn it comes ot the tanks. what most folks are saying is that no way in a frozen hell should an sk outparse a guardian bruiser or monk on a single target fight. and yes it happens ALL the time. thats the crus of the arguement though.. how do you lower that dps on a single target without gimping them..theres a few thoughts going around.. 1 being changing knights stance to be 2handed.. NO NEVER.. that woudl fix the survivability while doing insane auto attack dmg issues, but its SERIOusly BOOSTS sk dps when using a 2 hander which would put them even further ahead of the other tanks on single target dmg and light years ahead on aoe dmg.knights stance in no way shoudl ever do anything for 2 handed dmg. UNTIL EVERY TANK has an aa line for 2handed dmg.with the amount of haste that can be stacked up on folks and the inherently disgusting dmg capability of a 2 hander. couple that with ae auto attack if you add knights stance into the mix heh good luck to mages keeping up with an sk or a pali.its the worst idea i have ever heard it addresses one skimpy little part of a larger problem. it wont work at all.my personal thoughts make crusader aoe spell require multiple targets to reach full strength (which numerically is the only way to fix the dps disparity without handicapping crusaders) basically when a single target it is present the aoe spells that crusaders have would do about 40% of the dmg they do currently. 2 targets 50% 3 targets 70% 4+ targets same dmg as currently.</blockquote>You mention every tank having an AA line. Every tank OTHER than Crusaders already has 20 crit bonus to all attacks over Crusaders. It doesn't even cost AA! Your idea about AOE spells is awful, and would result in a nerf so large that the majority of raiding SK's would quit, due to the fact that 80% of raids are single target.</blockquote>omg omg wah wah i dont have the same crit bonus even though my average spell hit is far beyond the ca dmg of the other 4 tanks.. give it a rest dude yet again you are clueless as to why the crit bonuses are different.. you have more then 1 means of damaging a mob the rest of us tanks dont.. give it a sec to soak in.. ok now continuing on now that the crutch youve been using in every bit of your arguement is now moot..got anything else? hmm didnt think so. and how bout you sit back and think about the aoe spell idea.. guess what it does.. puts single target tanks back on top for single target dps.. wow how simple and effective huh.. oh but thats not a buff in disguise for you so i guess its no good huh. and please go head and gripe some more about your selection of playing an AE TANK and whining cause the majority of raid fights are ST.. omg omg 7 of my spells are gonna do less dmg when theres only 1 target.. umm your point. go head and flip back to that parse from before and look at the aoe spells total dmg then come back here and gripe on how small of a nerf that would be.. go head .. i dare ya... your out of ammo bro.. nice talking to ya ill be back to debunk more dribble later after you come up with something else thats equally moronic.

Darkonx

05-03-2010, 05:33 PM

<cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>i think perhaps your a slight bit confusedin no way is anyone saying that crusaders shoudlnt outparse all but zerkers on an ae fight wehn it comes ot the tanks. what most folks are saying is that no way in a frozen hell should an sk outparse a guardian bruiser or monk on a single target fight. and yes it happens ALL the time. thats the crus of the arguement though.. how do you lower that dps on a single target without gimping them..theres a few thoughts going around.. 1 being changing knights stance to be 2handed.. NO NEVER.. that woudl fix the survivability while doing insane auto attack dmg issues, but its SERIOusly BOOSTS sk dps when using a 2 hander which would put them even further ahead of the other tanks on single target dmg and light years ahead on aoe dmg.knights stance in no way shoudl ever do anything for 2 handed dmg. UNTIL EVERY TANK has an aa line for 2handed dmg.with the amount of haste that can be stacked up on folks and the inherently disgusting dmg capability of a 2 hander. couple that with ae auto attack if you add knights stance into the mix heh good luck to mages keeping up with an sk or a pali.its the worst idea i have ever heard it addresses one skimpy little part of a larger problem. it wont work at all.my personal thoughts make crusader aoe spell require multiple targets to reach full strength (which numerically is the only way to fix the dps disparity without handicapping crusaders) basically when a single target it is present the aoe spells that crusaders have would do about 40% of the dmg they do currently. 2 targets 50% 3 targets 70% 4+ targets same dmg as currently.</blockquote>You mention every tank having an AA line. Every tank OTHER than Crusaders already has 20 crit bonus to all attacks over Crusaders. It doesn't even cost AA! Your idea about AOE spells is awful, and would result in a nerf so large that the majority of raiding SK's would quit, due to the fact that 80% of raids are single target.</blockquote>omg omg wah wah i dont have the same crit bonus even though my average spell hit is far beyond the ca dmg of the other 4 tanks.. give it a rest dude yet again you are clueless as to why the crit bonuses are different.. you have more then 1 means of damaging a mob the rest of us tanks dont.. give it a sec to soak in.. ok now continuing on now that the crutch youve been using in every bit of your arguement is now moot..got anything else? hmm didnt think so. and how bout you sit back and think about the aoe spell idea.. guess what it does.. puts single target tanks back on top for single target dps.. wow how simple and effective huh.. oh but thats not a buff in disguise for you so i guess its no good huh. and please go head and gripe some more about your selection of playing an AE TANK and whining cause the majority of raid fights are ST.. omg omg 7 of my spells are gonna do less dmg when theres only 1 target.. umm your point. go head and flip back to that parse from before and look at the aoe spells total dmg then come back here and gripe on how small of a nerf that would be.. go head .. i dare ya... your out of ammo bro.. nice talking to ya ill be back to debunk more dribble later after you come up with something else thats equally moronic.</blockquote>Your idea is terrible, because it would reduce a spell in raids to 30% of it's total damage in a raid scenario. That is a bad idea. No if's and's or but's, that is a bad idea, unless you triple the damage, which would be a huge buff. 20% innate CB is huge. You can't just say it doesn't exist.500 from spells+500 DPS from CA's vs 1000 DPS from CA's is the same thing. Just because they're spells doesn't make them better, or else mages would always beat scouts in terms of DPS. An SK has 3-4 CA's, only. They don't get all of your CA's, and spells in addition.

Nulgara

05-03-2010, 07:17 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your idea is terrible, because it would reduce a spell in raids to 30% of it's total damage in a raid scenario. That is a bad idea. No if's and's or but's, that is a bad idea, unless you triple the damage, which would be a huge buff. 20% innate CB is huge. You can't just say it doesn't exist.500 from spells+500 DPS from CA's vs 1000 DPS from CA's is the same thing. Just because they're spells doesn't make them better, or else mages would always beat scouts in terms of DPS. An SK has 3-4 CA's, only. They don't get all of your CA's, and spells in addition.</blockquote>you get worse at reading comprehension (-1)go head and scroll up where i clearly state AoE's which btw not all 7 of them are spells either btw. A..O..E..with me now? so you mention 3-4 ca's are we jsut not gonan mention the 6 or 7 single target spells you have? or are we trying to downplay what you actualyl have to make it look horrible? perhaps you shoudl take a gander at my sig.. I have a 90 SK bro and yeah he is GROSSLY overpowered and jsut think hes in garbage gear compared to a raid geared sk.wanna know what my hardest hitting normal CA is on my monk.. five rings.. and its a flurry so a bigger portion of it gets mitigated. i know for a fact that sk spells hit harder. and that is precisely why your base crit bonus is lower.. but oh whats this SK's even with a 20% cb disadvantage are still outparsing equally geared and aa'd fighters of the other types.. hmm why is that.. coudl it be that they are ... OVERPOWERED.seriously do some research before you post. and perhaps even do some ...gasp.. MATH.

Darkonx

05-03-2010, 07:38 PM

<cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your idea is terrible, because it would reduce a spell in raids to 30% of it's total damage in a raid scenario. That is a bad idea. No if's and's or but's, that is a bad idea, unless you triple the damage, which would be a huge buff. 20% innate CB is huge. You can't just say it doesn't exist.500 from spells+500 DPS from CA's vs 1000 DPS from CA's is the same thing. Just because they're spells doesn't make them better, or else mages would always beat scouts in terms of DPS. An SK has 3-4 CA's, only. They don't get all of your CA's, and spells in addition.</blockquote>you get worse at reading comprehension (-1)go head and scroll up where i clearly state AoE's which btw not all 7 of them are spells either btw. A..O..E..with me now? so you mention 3-4 ca's are we jsut not gonan mention the 6 or 7 single target spells you have? or are we trying to downplay what you actualyl have to make it look horrible? perhaps you shoudl take a gander at my sig.. I have a 90 SK bro and yeah he is GROSSLY overpowered and jsut think hes in garbage gear compared to a raid geared sk.wanna know what my hardest hitting normal CA is on my monk.. five rings.. and its a flurry so a bigger portion of it gets mitigated. i know for a fact that sk spells hit harder. and that is precisely why your base crit bonus is lower.. but oh whats this SK's even with a 20% cb disadvantage are still outparsing equally geared and aa'd fighters of the other types.. hmm why is that.. coudl it be that they are ... OVERPOWERED.seriously do some research before you post. and perhaps even do some ...gasp.. MATH.</blockquote>You're flaming me for absolutely no reason, and I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop, as you're adding very little constructive input due to the red you're seeing as you write these posts. If you calm down, perhaps your words might be more thought out. You may have a 90 sk, but that doesn't mean that you necessarily know anything about them. I can level a toon 1-90 in about 10 hours, without ever using a single ability other than recall. For example -> SK has 3 CA's and 7 spells, Monk has 10 CA's. Spells are not innately better than CA's. It doesn't matter if we're casting CA's or spells, it only matters the total damage of the ability, in combination wtih hit rate. Monks can parse very well, they are more dependent upon auto attack than a Crusader is however.You can't compare ability A to ability B, because there are SO many other things to be factored in, it's nearly impossible, unless you create a complete chart of every single ability of each classes, including AA, and their net benefit. Even if you were to do this, you'd come up against some blocks such as the diminishing returns on reuse/casting speed so you'd have to factor in gear/adornment selections, and then if you factor in those, you would have to create a graph as to the gear/adornment selections for each teir, MC/maanar/t1/t2/t3, and that's just armor. You can not create a comprehensive comparison between the individual abilitys of two classes.The CB disadvantage is to make up for the harder hitting abilitys, clearly. Your idea is BAD. You can't really argue that it's a good idea to take 50% of a classes damage and cut it by 66%. In no way shape or form, is that a good idea. Now please, think about what I'm saying before writing post of 'OMG YOU'RE STUPID AND I'M RIGHT'. Being constructive is always better than simply being loud.

Kaarim

05-03-2010, 08:07 PM

<cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have a 90 SK </blockquote>You probably don't play it or know the class well at all then. Here I'll tell you what TSO did.Crusaders:Increase Crusaders casting speed by 33%Reuse by 10%1H+Shield weapon mod 25% harderIncrease double attack I believe it's like 18-20% at maxSK:One ability Dreadful Wrath cast speed .5s instead of 1s5% spell to group and raidReaver 5% to spellReflex ability Shadowknight's FurorGroup siphon str/int/ability mod10% Reuse/Recast for group25% Increase to HT *edit* I forgot the change to grave sacrament now an aoe taunt and dot/hate And HT 5min recast. As well mana sieve with a dot component What exactly do you want nerfed or think is overpowered? I don't see anything that increases survivability except the reflex one Shadowknights Furor. Is it because we cast too fast? Or is it our group buffs that benefit a RAID? As you can see it's not much of a change we went through...just made us more viable for groups than anything else. Our raid Paladin is behind me on DPS or even matches me at times and zerker both on single and aoe fights. Our guard well he's a guard so won't ever compete with us for DPS but he does push 20k occasionally though which isn't bad at all for a guardian. It's fun when you actually have skill and play with other high end skill players who know what to do in group/raids.

Nulgara

05-04-2010, 12:12 AM

you guys make me laugh you really do.and no i didnt flame you dark .. i call em like i see em thats all.but hey sorry if it sounded flamey. and you are perfectly free to disagree with me, just as i disagree with every single person that has agreed with the knights stance idea. is there another way or a better way im sure there is but nothing has been brought up here. and i highly doubt even a 1/10th of what i proposed woudl ever even be looked at solely because there are multiple developers that play the class. but anyway, pretty much everyone can see the problems except a select few.. and also lol at me not knowing how to play my sk wanna know when i stopped playing him? the first time i tanked for a group in tso. i dont care if you agree with me or not but there is 0 skill involved in playing an sk. sorry to hurt anyones feelings but its truth. its laughably easy to be a dps sk, ok ill give you a skill level of 2 when tanking with one though. but even in a raid after the mob is planted in position barring mem wipes you coudl go afk the whoel fight with nothing but cavaliers shout runnign and your auto attack and not have agro issues. every so often walk by and toss up a special if neccessary.im sure youll all take that th wrong way but guess what it is what it is .. SK's havent required a lick of skill to play since the last day of RoK.and kaarim why are we talking stuff added in tso?are we to overlook SF.are we to overlook the complete overhaul of the int line? which by the way has one of the better survivability specials housed within it. or have you not specced legionaires conviction yet? trust me it owns.shall we talk about self warding via a % of the entire groups hp pool? nah that has nothing to do with survivability either.should i go on?sks have gotten plenty of survivability love. the problem now arising is that all that dps type love given back in tso wasnt adjusted to be back in balance with the new survivability options.and allow me to call attention to this phrase within your postOur guard well he's a guard so won't ever compete with us for DPS but he does push 20k occasionally though which isn't bad at all for a guardianso your sk, a pali, and a zerker, all consistently outdps the guardian. ok how bout some context? are you talking mass pulling trash in a raid zone? or are you talking named fights. cause guess what if its the later, then that right there is evidence enough for supporting my arguement and debunking your own. and yes im betting its the later.that guardian should out dps YOU on single target fights, he is after all a straight up built for single targets tank. right along with monks and bruisers. but anyway thanks for helping me with my point.

Rahatmattata

05-04-2010, 01:28 AM

<cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>there are multiple developers that play the class.</blockquote>Why do people keep saying this, but no one will give proof... or even the source of where they heard it?

KinMorbidreamer

05-04-2010, 06:21 AM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sony, Please fix tank classes that do high DPS while having maximum survivability. Most tank classes trade survivability for DPS and vice-versa.</blockquote>says the guy with the zerker avatar.tanking in offensive stance while dual weilding makes you kind of a hypocrite, guy.

steelbadger

05-04-2010, 07:05 AM

<cite>Iadenie@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sony, Please fix tank classes that do high DPS while having maximum survivability. Most tank classes trade survivability for DPS and vice-versa.</blockquote>says the guy with the zerker avatar.tanking in offensive stance while dual weilding makes you kind of a hypocrite, guy.</blockquote>Uuuhhh. Wot?No it doesn't. By tanking in offensive stance while dual-wielding he has traded his survivability for aggro/DPS, something which pretty much every non Crusader tank must do if they wish to keep up with their best DPS dealers.He's asking that everyone have to make the tradeoff he has to make; the one that everyone, bar crusaders, have to make. Doesn't seem even slightly hypocritical to me. If he was standing around playing a class that never has to take it's shield off no matter how 'offensively' they spec then it would be hypocritical.

KinMorbidreamer

05-04-2010, 07:28 AM

<cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Iadenie@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sony, Please fix tank classes that do high DPS while having maximum survivability. Most tank classes trade survivability for DPS and vice-versa.</blockquote>says the guy with the zerker avatar.tanking in offensive stance while dual weilding makes you kind of a hypocrite, guy.</blockquote>Uuuhhh. Wot?No it doesn't. By tanking in offensive stance while dual-wielding he has traded his survivability for aggro/DPS, something which pretty much every non Crusader tank must do if they wish to keep up with their best DPS dealers.He's asking that everyone have to make the tradeoff he has to make; the one that everyone, bar crusaders, have to make. Doesn't seem even slightly hypocritical to me. If he was standing around playing a class that never has to take it's shield off no matter how 'offensively' they spec then it would be hypocritical.</blockquote>For this "maximum survivability" to be true the crusader still has to be in defensive stance, in which case if they are, they are not putting out the best dps they can.Maybe I was hasty with the hypocrite comment, but its early/late, so sue me. But it doesn't mean he was right either, so settle down there sparky.

Kaarim

05-04-2010, 10:25 AM

TSO ChangesCrusaders:Increase Crusaders casting speed by 33%Reuse by 10%1H+Shield weapon mod 25% harderIncrease double attack I believe it's like 18-20% at max SK:One ability Dreadful Wrath cast speed .5s instead of 1s5% spell to group and raidReaver 5% to spellReflex ability Shadowknight's FurorGroup siphon str/int/ability mod10% Reuse/Recast for group25% Increase to HT grave sacrament now an aoe taunt and dot/hate And HT 5min recast. As well mana sieve with a dot component Hateful respite absorb 1 attack if dmg is over 25% max HPSF Changes Crusaders:Reflect Reduce incoming spell dmg by 40% reflected back at 200% of its power.Shadowknight SF AA: Increase 5% to dreadful wrath per rank. Debuff Crit Bonus by 1 per rank. Enhance Lifetaps by 3% per rank. Enhance grave sacrament taunt/dmg 5% per rankBlood siphon siphon 5% of HP per group. There you have it every lil important change and addition made to the crusader and shadowknight abilities/AA. I would like you all who think we are OP to high light in RED TEXT what you think is OP or should be removed. The way I see it on paper we have only 2 Death saves. Blood Siphon and Shadowknights Furor. Blood letter is a death prevention which all fighters have in some form. Our survival is NOT consistent we would have to rely on 3 abilities once they are down then what? I think it's fair how they have things for my class. Look if you make em take away temporary survival abilities they would add or change it to where we have consistent survival...now that would make most SK's happy and that would make most people scream nerf again. The main issues SK had was survival and we just got a few temporary abilities to help for "OMG" moments to counter those situations. Anyway use red highlight, and keep in mind the differences between "Crusader" and "Shadowknight" .

TheSpin

05-04-2010, 10:49 AM

SKs overpowered in Sentinals Fate? Not at all......<img src="http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f41/penguinlad92/healed.jpg" width="799" height="368" />

Kaarim

05-04-2010, 11:03 AM

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote>SKs overpowered in Sentinals Fate? Not at all......<img src="http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f41/penguinlad92/healed.jpg" width="799" height="368" /></blockquote>OH you got to be kidding me if you think that is real. It's obviously a bug and it's not on LIVE it's on TEST. I believe it's fixed now. Anyways if you have an issue go a head and highlight the abilities/changes I posted to our arch-type and class. lol I knew someone would have post this eventually saying omg OP.

Mavrin

05-04-2010, 11:45 AM

1. "that guardian should out dps YOU on single target fights" - Says who? I thought a Guards job description was to survive where others cannot.2. "there are multiple developers that play the class" - good at least they're playing easier find the bugs that way.3. "Our guard well he's a guard so won't ever compete with us for DPS but he does push 20k occasionally though which isn't bad at all for a guardian" - You think you can have your guard teach all the whiners how to do it.4."Most tank classes trade survivability for DPS and vice-versa, something which pretty much every non Crusader tank must do if they wish to keep up with their best DPS dealers."- drops the BS flag on that play we have to make the same compromises.5. "SK's havent required a lick of skill to play since the last day of RoK" and yet I've seen many many who couldn't find thier backsides with both hands.6. "By tanking in offensive stance while dual-wielding he has traded his survivability for aggro/DPS, something which pretty much every non Crusader tank must do if they wish to keep up with their best DPS dealers" - only if the non crusader tanks group set up is completely borked. Coercive shout, battle cry, an assassin thrown in and most issues go away not all but most, if hates bouncing tell whoever its bouncing over to slow down kill slower but mob still dies. When all else fails tell the healers stop healing whoevers consistently ripping, broken armor tends to illustrate a point rather well.Seems most of the whining in these threads all come back to a single point. GUARDS want to be the NUMBER ONE tank well suck it up already and learn to share the spotlight because those days are long over.

knightofround

05-04-2010, 11:57 AM

Yeah I don't know why SKs are getting so much hate. I've raided as SK, Pally, and Zerker, so I think I have a better grasp of plate tank mechanics than most people out there.I think most people who are still whining about SKs are still stuck in TSO. Newsflash: The only good thing that SKs got in this expansion is the ability to spend an extra 30 points in the crusader tree, so the INT line (with the reflect) is actually feasible. All the SF AAs that SKs got are a joke. Blood Siphon is the only one that comes even close to being desirable, and even its usefulness is seriously in doubt due to the way they coded AEs in this expansion. While pretty much every other tank class except paladins some nice new goodies in the form of AA, and most classes got a free 20% crit bonus. (which actually hurt crusader aggro control relative to those classes) These changes were *necessary* in order to bring all other plate tanks in line with TSO-era SKs, and they have largely been *successful*.Plate tank balancing is FAR more balanced than it has ever been in the history of EQ2 imo. Guards are back to kings of survivability at the expense of DPS/aggro. Zerkers are the new DPS tank (if you think SK dps > zerker dps now you should be shot, and then go find some better zerkers). The crusaders are back to being "jack-of-all trades, master of none", with the SK flavored more for DPS+aggro, and the Pally flavored more for survivability+aggro.IMO, the *only* three things that need to be changed to make plate tank balancing perfect are1. Give Guardians better AE aggro control (not AE DPS) so they are just as viable as other tanks when it comes to instances/AE encounters. Improved Moderate should have been a massive blue AE taunt proc, not the weaksauce hate reduction it is now.2. Change knight's stance so crusaders do slightly less DPS with a shield and slightly more DPS with a 2H, so they can viably "swap modes" like warriors.3. Fix 2H itemization (7-10% increase across the board would be about right) so 2H weapons are actually viable for all plate tanks, as it stands right now nobody in the right mind would use a 2H except maybe zerker in long duration AE encounters (of which there is very few in this expansion outside of heroic instances)

Rahatmattata

05-04-2010, 02:06 PM

So, basically you call most people whiners still stuck in TSO, and then agree that crusaders need to be nerfed. GG champ.

Bruener

05-04-2010, 04:00 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>So, basically you call most people whiners still stuck in TSO, and then agree that crusaders need to be nerfed. GG champ.</blockquote>Nothing worse than a short statement made to jab at a previous post that is completely incorrect. Please explain where he said Crusaders need a nerf? What he said was change KS to be 2h only basically. DPS with sword+board would drop a little but 2h DPS would go up.What a lot of people have been pointing out recently is that things aren't nearly what people are making them out to be. Fighters parse about the same across the board...until they start to go defensive in which case some classes CAN go more defensive than others and they parse lower because of it. Each fighter has many tricks and abilities to make them useful everywhere in all styles of play. Every fighter can solo easily. Every fighter can tank every heroic instance easily, whether it is AE heavy or not. And finally every fighter can bring something to raids along with the ability to tank.What exactly is the agenda of these few loud mouths on the forums? Nerf one tank down so that they cannot do what is going on now...BALANCE!!!!? Is it just plain envy over the fact that one class gets something your own class doesn't? Because there are plenty of things each fighter class does and can do that other fighters can't. Guards can stand up to ST encounters like no other tank with their multiple stoneskins. Zerkers have massive AE capabilities and h ave an ability that for half the time they can be completely offensive and still take less damage than any other tank. Paladins for the most part are extremely happy with their added survivability this xpac along with a couple new tools like Stonewall. Shadowknights still have great AE capabilities and a couple nice "oh crap" abilities. Both Brawlers can reach mitigation levels equal to Plate tanks, have better avoidance, and have picked up some extremely nice snap tools on short recast. Really if you get a group or raid going with any good playing fighter you start to realize how nice things are. Fighters can work extremely well together and are given tools to work better together than ever.But again, for some reason, some people just love to keep other classes down.

Rasttan

05-04-2010, 04:58 PM

Its simple list what the 6 yes 6 tanks I know most people shi... on brawlers but they need to be in the equation also are required to do as a main function in raids and groups and of the class. If your class/archeatype is near the top in most of these then there is some changes that need to be made to the other classes to bring everyone on par.Survivabilty, Single Target Agro, AE Agro, Snaps, Single Target DPS, AE DPS, Group Buffs, Raid Buffs, Temp Buffs, Tanking Offensive, Tanking Defensive, Hate Xfer tools, Hate Syphon Tools, Save Abilities including deathsaves, temp avoids, stoneskins, self heals ...etc.I don't think any class needs a nerf, but some classes dominate this list or are in the top 3 way to often and the average unlabotomized person weather playing the class or not knows what classes those are.

Nulgara

05-04-2010, 07:14 PM

<cite>Mavrin wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. "that guardian should out dps YOU on single target fights" - Says who? I thought a Guards job description was to survive where others cannot.i see im still having to explain the difference between an ae tank and an ST tank. an ae tank should not be able to out dps an st tank on a single target fight, but they do. that is an issue wether you agree with it or even see it. i'll leave it at that. 2. "there are multiple developers that play the class" - good at least they're playing easier find the bugs that way.3. "Our guard well he's a guard so won't ever compete with us for DPS but he does push 20k occasionally though which isn't bad at all for a guardian" - You think you can have your guard teach all the whiners how to do it.4."Most tank classes trade survivability for DPS and vice-versa, something which pretty much every non Crusader tank must do if they wish to keep up with their best DPS dealers."- drops the BS flag on that play we have to make the same compromises. i didnt make the orginial statement but i dont believe that writer meant that you dont have to change anything, pretty sure it means that not nearly as much has to be sacrificed. for a guardian or either brawler to keep up on dps they make very very large sacrifices. for instance all 3 of them lose ALL of the uncontested avoidance to do so. something that a crusader does not have to do. so no you dont maek the same compromises, sure you make some but not even remotely would i call it the same. 5. "SK's havent required a lick of skill to play since the last day of RoK" and yet I've seen many many who couldn't find thier backsides with both hands.well some people jsut arent cut out to play tanks. any tank player behind the wheel of an sk can straight up tell you how easy it is compared to the other tanks. sure you may run in to a few situations where it may require some skill in tanking to come out on top but for the majority of content across the enitre spectrum of the game, it is in fact easier for an sk. again you dont have to agree with me i have my point of view you have yours.6. "By tanking in offensive stance while dual-wielding he has traded his survivability for aggro/DPS, something which pretty much every non Crusader tank must do if they wish to keep up with their best DPS dealers" - only if the non crusader tanks group set up is completely borked. Coercive shout, battle cry, an assassin thrown in and most issues go away not all but most, if hates bouncing tell whoever its bouncing over to slow down kill slower but mob still dies. When all else fails tell the healers stop healing whoevers consistently ripping, broken armor tends to illustrate a point rather well.i see your point here sure in 90% of cases there is plenty of hate xfer to keep the mob on the mt. but on the fights that are abnormal your telling me that in todays state of overinflated dps'ers and the "well that sk and that pali coudl keep that agro all day long why shoudl i have to throttle down my dps with you" type folks .. your saying a non crusader tank should be telling there group to throttle it.. sure throttling occurs in some situations. the biggest issue with this is that the moment that giuard tosses a shield on he loses a very big ole chunk of dps and brawlers and zerkers have the same issue, HUGE dps lose the second they go shield or defensive stance. for the more difficult to survive encounters.. tell me this what good is all that survivability if you cant keep the agro. most of the gripes about crusaders is that they maintain very high dps while wearing that shield. the other tanks dont have that luxury. and yeah sure you coudl always toss the crusader in there for that fight, but ohter than tank specific scripting why should that have to occur? what your looking at here is a prime example of a tank not being able to tank effectively enough or equally enough with another type of tank. if a fight is hard enough for a non crusader mt to have to go defensive then they shoudl be able to do so. right now dps is still king for agro control. losing that dps hinders those tanks form doing the job.. no im not asking for more dps when defensive for those tanks, but perhaps there shoudl be large hate bonuses and such added to all fighter defensive stances making the loss in dps a moot point. when your raid force is used to a tanks agro and can go all out and such when they have to switch for a fight its a nightmare cause everyone is over-agroing for awhile until the tank is screaming for people to back the hell off. Seems most of the whining in these threads all come back to a single point. GUARDS want to be the NUMBER ONE tank well suck it up already and learn to share the spotlight because those days are long over.</blockquote>

Kaarim

05-05-2010, 09:22 AM

<cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>your saying a non crusader tank should be telling there group to throttle it.. sure throttling occurs in some situations. the biggest issue with this is that the moment that giuard tosses a shield on he loses a very big ole chunk of dps and brawlers and zerkers have the same issue, HUGE dps lose the second they go shield or defensive stance. for the more difficult to survive encounters.. tell me this what good is all that survivability if you cant keep the agro.</blockquote></blockquote>Why would any other tank besides a crusader say throttle your aggro? I suggest moving on to a better raiding guild or if your server sucks move over to unrest and we'll show you what our non crusader tanks are highly capable of. What's the difference between a warrior dual wielding in defensive stance and a crusader shield+sword in defensive stance? Oh yeah you're going to say survivability because of the shield. I think it's BS cause again our guard tanks most of this content DWing. Our zerk doesn't believe in shields so that's out the window..lol. I don't use shields I use the new 2H like any other crusader who has the new weapons. Guards don't do DPS anyway have you even seen their abilities? Everything they have has a hate component on it, for like holding aggro like what a tank is suppose to do. You say you play an SK you should know we only have 2 generic taunts. I don't count GS or Rescue since they are longer than 2min recast and most fights don't even last that long. How do you think a crusader holds aggro? They beat the hell out of a mob. I suggest you /delete your Shadowknight or actually read what the abilities do and compare them to warriors before you make another post. If not my next post to you is going to be a SIDE BY SIDE comparison of abilities and I'll highlight them in super bright pink font so you can see the difference between them. Maybe then you might comprehend the main priority of a crusader tank and a warrior tank. Maybe. Fighters have never been so close to balance as they are now...most warriors are pleased with the changes. Crusaders are happy, hell even brawlers are thanking SoE for being able to compete with plate tanks (thanks to itemization, but can be better) it's not perfect but it's way better than last expansion. I think your just mad because you probably have a skilled Crusader in your raid force and he/she dominates you on the DPS parse every single time.

Grumpy_Warrior_01

05-05-2010, 09:38 AM

<cite>Darkerwarrior@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I suggest you /delete your Shadowknight or actually read what the abilities do and compare them to warriors before you make another post. If not my next post to you is going to be a SIDE BY SIDE comparison of abilities and I'll highlight them in super bright pink font so you can see the difference between them.</blockquote>Crusader:AoE stuns, AoE interrupts, AoE dots, dispells, debuffs, single heal, group heal, self heal, instant heal, cure, ward, real death prevent, single hate transfer, group hate transfer, lifetap, manatap, strength tap, mitigation tap, feign death, evac, resurrect. And that's not even looking at AA's.Warrior:Bind Wound.

Kaarim

05-05-2010, 10:07 AM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crusader:AoE stuns, AoE interrupts, AoE dots, dispells, debuffs, single heal, group heal, self heal, instant heal, cure, ward, real death prevent, single hate transfer, group hate transfer, lifetap, manatap, strength tap, mitigation tap, feign death, evac, resurrect. And that's not even looking at AA's.Warrior:Bind Wound.</blockquote>You know our heals make up for the lack of survivability we have against warriors right? Anyway if you think all Warriors have is Bind Wound I'll send our Guard and Zerk to send you a PM to teach you how to play your Class might educate you a lil.

Wasuna

05-05-2010, 10:43 AM

<cite>Darkerwarrior@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crusader:AoE stuns, AoE interrupts, AoE dots, dispells, debuffs, single heal, group heal, self heal, instant heal, cure, ward, real death prevent, single hate transfer, group hate transfer, lifetap, manatap, strength tap, mitigation tap, feign death, evac, resurrect. And that's not even looking at AA's.Warrior:Bind Wound.</blockquote>You know our heals make up for the lack of survivability we have against warriors right? Anyway if you think all Warriors have is Bind Wound I'll send our Guard and Zerk to send you a PM to teach you how to play your Class might educate you a lil. </blockquote>What lack of survivability? You can pull whole rooms of stuff and barely need healing. Also, you can wear your shiled while do amazing DPS. The biggest thing is through all of this you hold agro very well.I guess everybody that doesn't play on your server sucks. Also, raiding is not what everybody does. Just becasue you do doesn't mean we all do and applying your perceptions to us all will just get more people irritated.I was in a group last night as my Troubador. The Warlock said that he needed to be allowed to wear plate. The Wizard said if they did that he'd be an SK.

Nulgara

05-05-2010, 11:33 AM

<cite>Darkerwarrior@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>your saying a non crusader tank should be telling there group to throttle it.. sure throttling occurs in some situations. the biggest issue with this is that the moment that giuard tosses a shield on he loses a very big ole chunk of dps and brawlers and zerkers have the same issue, HUGE dps lose the second they go shield or defensive stance. for the more difficult to survive encounters.. tell me this what good is all that survivability if you cant keep the agro.</blockquote></blockquote>Why would any other tank besides a crusader say throttle your aggro? I suggest moving on to a better raiding guild or if your server sucks move over to unrest and we'll show you what our non crusader tanks are highly capable of. What's the difference between a warrior dual wielding in defensive stance and a crusader shield+sword in defensive stance? Oh yeah you're going to say survivability because of the shield. I think it's BS cause again our guard tanks most of this content DWing. Our zerk doesn't believe in shields so that's out the window..lol. I don't use shields I use the new 2H like any other crusader who has the new weapons. Guards don't do DPS anyway have you even seen their abilities? Everything they have has a hate component on it, for like holding aggro like what a tank is suppose to do. You say you play an SK you should know we only have 2 generic taunts. I don't count GS or Rescue since they are longer than 2min recast and most fights don't even last that long. How do you think a crusader holds aggro? They beat the hell out of a mob. I suggest you /delete your Shadowknight or actually read what the abilities do and compare them to warriors before you make another post. If not my next post to you is going to be a SIDE BY SIDE comparison of abilities and I'll highlight them in super bright pink font so you can see the difference between them. Maybe then you might comprehend the main priority of a crusader tank and a warrior tank. Maybe. Fighters have never been so close to balance as they are now...most warriors are pleased with the changes. Crusaders are happy, hell even brawlers are thanking SoE for being able to compete with plate tanks (thanks to itemization, but can be better) it's not perfect but it's way better than last expansion. I think your just mad because you probably have a skilled Crusader in your raid force and he/she dominates you on the DPS parse every single time. </blockquote>oh yeah cause thats how it should be done right? balance the game around the smallest percentage of players. thank god morons like you arent devs.ok try to follow me here. NOT EVERYONE IS ALREADY UBER GEARED. NOT EVERYONE FINISHED TSO WITH THE MAX POSSIBLE GEAR FROM TSO. still with me? ok now just because the guard in your guild "tanks everything DW" which btw i feel bad for your healers having to work overtime on some fights, doesnt mean every guard in every guild is tanking everything while DW.and lol at your taunt comparisson.. lets just keep giving incomplate information till someone calls me out? is that your plan. FYI cavaliers shout is the only taunt you shoudl even remotely ever need as a crusader. check your tautn parse next time you do a zone with that running and come back and try to tell me it doesnt proc like made making your holding of agro EASY MODE compared to every other tank. yes warriors have more individual taunts then you do. heres a tip step out of your little we're awesome and you all suck because your not geared like us bubble. then postand no i dont get ourparsed by a crusader on our raids. he parses right there with the guard, i play my monk on our raids and yes i am the top parsing fighter in my guild, but that wont last forever im quite a bit ahead of them gear wise cause brawler stuff drops liek crazy this expansion. they arent that far behind though.anyway doubt ill bother to read any response you may have cause quite obviously your way to LEET for us normal folk that only raid a few times a week or less. but ill give you this, when all the fighters in my guild are geared out yeah we will quite easily be spanking mobs in offensive sets and specs. to GET THERE though guess what we do what we can with what we got. and i really am glad that your very small percentage of players isnt what the game is balanced around.

Bruener

05-05-2010, 12:08 PM

<cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkerwarrior@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>your saying a non crusader tank should be telling there group to throttle it.. sure throttling occurs in some situations. the biggest issue with this is that the moment that giuard tosses a shield on he loses a very big ole chunk of dps and brawlers and zerkers have the same issue, HUGE dps lose the second they go shield or defensive stance. for the more difficult to survive encounters.. tell me this what good is all that survivability if you cant keep the agro.</blockquote></blockquote>Why would any other tank besides a crusader say throttle your aggro? I suggest moving on to a better raiding guild or if your server sucks move over to unrest and we'll show you what our non crusader tanks are highly capable of. What's the difference between a warrior dual wielding in defensive stance and a crusader shield+sword in defensive stance? Oh yeah you're going to say survivability because of the shield. I think it's BS cause again our guard tanks most of this content DWing. Our zerk doesn't believe in shields so that's out the window..lol. I don't use shields I use the new 2H like any other crusader who has the new weapons. Guards don't do DPS anyway have you even seen their abilities? Everything they have has a hate component on it, for like holding aggro like what a tank is suppose to do. You say you play an SK you should know we only have 2 generic taunts. I don't count GS or Rescue since they are longer than 2min recast and most fights don't even last that long. How do you think a crusader holds aggro? They beat the hell out of a mob. I suggest you /delete your Shadowknight or actually read what the abilities do and compare them to warriors before you make another post. If not my next post to you is going to be a SIDE BY SIDE comparison of abilities and I'll highlight them in super bright pink font so you can see the difference between them. Maybe then you might comprehend the main priority of a crusader tank and a warrior tank. Maybe. Fighters have never been so close to balance as they are now...most warriors are pleased with the changes. Crusaders are happy, hell even brawlers are thanking SoE for being able to compete with plate tanks (thanks to itemization, but can be better) it's not perfect but it's way better than last expansion. I think your just mad because you probably have a skilled Crusader in your raid force and he/she dominates you on the DPS parse every single time. </blockquote>oh yeah cause thats how it should be done right? balance the game around the smallest percentage of players. thank god morons like you arent devs.ok try to follow me here. NOT EVERYONE IS ALREADY UBER GEARED. NOT EVERYONE FINISHED TSO WITH THE MAX POSSIBLE GEAR FROM TSO. still with me? ok now just because the guard in your guild "tanks everything DW" which btw i feel bad for your healers having to work overtime on some fights, doesnt mean every guard in every guild is tanking everything while DW.and lol at your taunt comparisson.. lets just keep giving incomplate information till someone calls me out? is that your plan. FYI cavaliers shout is the only taunt you shoudl even remotely ever need as a crusader. check your tautn parse next time you do a zone with that running and come back and try to tell me it doesnt proc like made making your holding of agro EASY MODE compared to every other tank. yes warriors have more individual taunts then you do. heres a tip step out of your little we're awesome and you all suck because your not geared like us bubble. then postand no i dont get ourparsed by a crusader on our raids. he parses right there with the guard, i play my monk on our raids and yes i am the top parsing fighter in my guild, but that wont last forever im quite a bit ahead of them gear wise cause brawler stuff drops liek crazy this expansion. they arent that far behind though.anyway doubt ill bother to read any response you may have cause quite obviously your way to LEET for us normal folk that only raid a few times a week or less. but ill give you this, when all the fighters in my guild are geared out yeah we will quite easily be spanking mobs in offensive sets and specs. to GET THERE though guess what we do what we can with what we got. and i really am glad that your very small percentage of players isnt what the game is balanced around.</blockquote>Every single fighter can perform their job easily in heroic content. So I guess what is the issue here?And unfortunately things do have to be balanced around what classes can do at the raid level otherwise you get extremely OP'd classes at the raid level based on balancing around heroic content. You know raid level where small margins mean a lot. Not heroic level where and joe can slap on crappy gear and completely the content easily.

knightofround

05-05-2010, 12:10 PM

<cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkerwarrior@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I suggest you /delete your Shadowknight or actually read what the abilities do and compare them to warriors before you make another post. If not my next post to you is going to be a SIDE BY SIDE comparison of abilities and I'll highlight them in super bright pink font so you can see the difference between them.</blockquote>Crusader:AoE stuns, AoE interrupts, AoE dots, dispells, debuffs, single heal, group heal, self heal, instant heal, cure, ward, real death prevent, single hate transfer, group hate transfer, lifetap, manatap, strength tap, mitigation tap, feign death, evac, resurrect. And that's not even looking at AA's.Warrior:Bind Wound.</blockquote>I find this post highly amusing. AoE stuns and interrupts, really? That stuff is weak even vs heroic mobs, and useless versus epic mobs.AoE dots? You do realize that dots are particularly bad in AE encounters because typically adds will die before the dot expires. Sure they're useful for doing roomwide pulls on trash but I've yet to come across an x4 fight where more than 2 adds stayed alive for longer than 15-30 seconds.Dispells and debuffs...really, why bother. Dispells=useless in pve, and as far as debuffs go only SKs get a decent one that siphons 5% crit bonus.Heals - okay, only pallys get these. Single target heal = trash, self heal = trash, instant heal = okay but still kinda trashy with long reuse, group heal = actually pretty good, cure = highly situational, not very useful this expansion, ward = goodI'm not sure what you mean by "real death prevent". Pallys get probably the worst DP in the game, even worse than the warrior ones. SK bloodletter is very nice, but you have to realize that SKs do not get survivability tools like every other tank out there. There is shadowknights furor which is a pretty nice temp ability, however as a survivability tool its limited by the fact it only negates autoattack damage. Guards get block+last man standing+tower of stone+defensive minded+1 DP, zerkers get adreneline+battle frenzy+2 DP, pallys get ghetto heals+stonewall+1 DP. And that's excluding both divine aura and dragoon reflexes.The hate transfers are unique to pallys, SKs do not get any hate transfers. Even then you have to realize that there is a 50% aggro transfer either going to or from a single person. So if you have a guard tanking with coercer+sin/swash+sorcerer/monk(rw) the guard is going to be capped at...50% aggro transfer. If you have a tank with a trak shield clickie, you're going to be capped at...50% hate transfer. If you toss a paladin into the same group the paladin is going to be capped at...50% aggro transfer. The pally hate transfers are a little bit better because pulling 40% of your hate off of, say, a wizard is probably going to net you more hate then from a mixture of coercer+swash/sin, but even then the difference will be small. So essentially, pally hate transfers are only useful if you have a crappy group.Lifetaps, don't even get me started. Completely and utterly worthless in raids. SK tap veins and Reaver is useful in heroic content, the other lifetaps are only really useful for soloing purposes. And pally lifetaps are even worse than SK ones.Manataps, SKs get one, singular. And it is very nice, its like having an extra manaweave item at all times. But much like pally's problem with aggro transfer, in the proper group its usefulness is slim to none.Strength tap = lol, very marginal buff. Zerkers get a ton more STR from their group buff, pallys get a single target buff thats persistant that does as much, I'm not sure what guards get but even if they don't its no big deal.Mitigation tap = lol, its incredibly easy to get mit this expansion. And only SKs get it.FD/evac = meh, its good for saving cash repairing your gear, and maybe one x4 fight in TSO...thats pretty much it. Only SK gets thisRez = Having the ability to rez is kinda nice. But oh wait, every class can rez using redemption of failures. Whoops. Another problem is that usually when the stuff hits the fan and people start wiping, the tank is often either dead, or too focused on getting aggro/positioning the mob to bother doing the rezzing anyway. Still kinda useful, but very situational. Only pallys get a castable rez, and it requires a red adorn slot+5 AAs to make it non-crappy, even afterwards a redemption of failure is a superior rez.Warriors get a lot of nice stuff too make up for the few good things listed above. Not having spells is pretty big deal, CAs are superior if you're actually tanking something. Spells are nice if you're ranging a mob, but if you're having a tank range a mob...why is the tank there. Getting a large portion of DPS from autoattack is a pretty big deal too, it means that you're not as affected by stifles/interrupts/KBs which are pretty common...dazes are more rare. And warriors have some fanatastic survivability tools too, adreneline is probably the single best survivability skill in the game, and guards can toss up more stoneskins than some crusaders can block. Warriors also get a free 20% crit bonus that crusaders do not, which is pretty huge.Crusaders get some nice things, warriors get some nice things...they are pretty balanced. Again, to reiterate a previous post, all that really needs to be done is 1. give guardians more AoE aggro control, 2. change crusader knight's stance to do slightly less DPS with shield and slightly more DPS with 2H, 3. improve 2-handed weapons for everyone, about a 10% increase across the board.

Kaarim

05-05-2010, 12:16 PM

<cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>hank god morons like you arent devs.ok try to follow me here. NOT EVERYONE IS ALREADY UBER GEARED. NOT EVERYONE FINISHED TSO WITH THE MAX POSSIBLE GEAR FROM TSO. still with me? ok now just because the guard in your guild "tanks everything DW" which btw i feel bad for your healers having to work overtime on some fights, doesnt mean every guard in every guild is tanking everything while DW.and lol at your taunt comparisson.. lets just keep giving incomplate information till someone calls me out? is that your plan. FYI cavaliers shout is the only taunt you shoudl even remotely ever need as a crusader. check your tautn parse next time you do a zone with that running and come back and try to tell me it doesnt proc like made making your holding of agro EASY MODE compared to every other tank. yes warriors have more individual taunts then you do. heres a tip step out of your little we're awesome and you all suck because your not geared like us bubble. then postand no i dont get ourparsed by a crusader on our raids. he parses right there with the guard, i play my monk on our raids and yes i am the top parsing fighter in my guild, but that wont last forever im quite a bit ahead of them gear wise cause brawler stuff drops liek crazy this expansion. they arent that far behind though.anyway doubt ill bother to read any response you may have cause quite obviously your way to LEET for us normal folk that only raid a few times a week or less. but ill give you this, when all the fighters in my guild are geared out yeah we will quite easily be spanking mobs in offensive sets and specs. to GET THERE though guess what we do what we can with what we got. and i really am glad that your very small percentage of players isnt what the game is balanced around.</blockquote>1.) Any Crusaders that takes Cavaliers shout is fail..the class doesn't need it. I'ts amazing in PVP though since it's an auto force target..I do have it in a PVP spec..but for grouping/raiding I see no point in it you're better off spending points else where. This tells more so how you don't understand the Crusader class at all. 2.) So you're saying Crusaders are OP in group instances but not in raids? How are you suppose to fix that situation? 3.) No where did I say how amazing I am, or how sucky everyone is. I'm just countering posts based on my experiences. Not just group or raid. Just because one guild can do it and the other can do it, or one group can do it and the other can't DOES NOT mean it cannot be done because obviously it's being done somewhere right? Someone out there is pulling it off. What you all are asking for is to make the game easy mode instead of working for it. This is about the classes capabilities not what the class capabilities are with GEAR. Forget armor be it raid or group sets, it's what the class is capable of doing. 4.) As for "normal folk" raiding. We only raid 3 nights, 2 hours a night which make it 6 hours a week. We're a casual raiding guild. So...don't get the idea I'm hardcore and raid like 4hours every single day.Re: Wasuna5.) How you going to compare an AoE tank to a Single target tank on room pulling. That's just dumb. That's like comparing a Wizard and a Warlock in an AoE encounter, or Conj and a Necro, or in this situation an SK and a Guardian.

RafaelSmith

05-05-2010, 01:51 PM

<cite>knightofround wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkerwarrior@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I suggest you /delete your Shadowknight or actually read what the abilities do and compare them to warriors before you make another post. If not my next post to you is going to be a SIDE BY SIDE comparison of abilities and I'll highlight them in super bright pink font so you can see the difference between them.</blockquote>Crusader:AoE stuns, AoE interrupts, AoE dots, dispells, debuffs, single heal, group heal, self heal, instant heal, cure, ward, real death prevent, single hate transfer, group hate transfer, lifetap, manatap, strength tap, mitigation tap, feign death, evac, resurrect. And that's not even looking at AA's.Warrior:Bind Wound.</blockquote>I find this post highly amusing. AoE stuns and interrupts, really? That stuff is weak even vs heroic mobs, and useless versus epic mobs.AoE dots? You do realize that dots are particularly bad in AE encounters because typically adds will die before the dot expires. Sure they're useful for doing roomwide pulls on trash but I've yet to come across an x4 fight where more than 2 adds stayed alive for longer than 15-30 seconds.Dispells and debuffs...really, why bother. Dispells=useless in pve, and as far as debuffs go only SKs get a decent one that siphons 5% crit bonus.Heals - okay, only pallys get these. Single target heal = trash, self heal = trash, instant heal = okay but still kinda trashy with long reuse, group heal = actually pretty good, cure = highly situational, not very useful this expansion, ward = goodI'm not sure what you mean by "real death prevent". Pallys get probably the worst DP in the game, even worse than the warrior ones. SK bloodletter is very nice, but you have to realize that SKs do not get survivability tools like every other tank out there. There is shadowknights furor which is a pretty nice temp ability, however as a survivability tool its limited by the fact it only negates autoattack damage. Guards get block+last man standing+tower of stone+defensive minded+1 DP, zerkers get adreneline+battle frenzy+2 DP, pallys get ghetto heals+stonewall+1 DP. And that's excluding both divine aura and dragoon reflexes.The hate transfers are unique to pallys, SKs do not get any hate transfers. Even then you have to realize that there is a 50% aggro transfer either going to or from a single person. So if you have a guard tanking with coercer+sin/swash+sorcerer/monk(rw) the guard is going to be capped at...50% aggro transfer. If you have a tank with a trak shield clickie, you're going to be capped at...50% hate transfer. If you toss a paladin into the same group the paladin is going to be capped at...50% aggro transfer. The pally hate transfers are a little bit better because pulling 40% of your hate off of, say, a wizard is probably going to net you more hate then from a mixture of coercer+swash/sin, but even then the difference will be small. So essentially, pally hate transfers are only useful if you have a crappy group.Lifetaps, don't even get me started. Completely and utterly worthless in raids. SK tap veins and Reaver is useful in heroic content, the other lifetaps are only really useful for soloing purposes. And pally lifetaps are even worse than SK ones.Manataps, SKs get one, singular. And it is very nice, its like having an extra manaweave item at all times. But much like pally's problem with aggro transfer, in the proper group its usefulness is slim to none.Strength tap = lol, very marginal buff. Zerkers get a ton more STR from their group buff, pallys get a single target buff thats persistant that does as much, I'm not sure what guards get but even if they don't its no big deal.Mitigation tap = lol, its incredibly easy to get mit this expansion. And only SKs get it.FD/evac = meh, its good for saving cash repairing your gear, and maybe one x4 fight in TSO...thats pretty much it. Only SK gets thisRez = Having the ability to rez is kinda nice. But oh wait, every class can rez using redemption of failures. Whoops. Another problem is that usually when the stuff hits the fan and people start wiping, the tank is often either dead, or too focused on getting aggro/positioning the mob to bother doing the rezzing anyway. Still kinda useful, but very situational. Only pallys get a castable rez, and it requires a red adorn slot+5 AAs to make it non-crappy, even afterwards a redemption of failure is a superior rez.Warriors get a lot of nice stuff too make up for the few good things listed above. Not having spells is pretty big deal, CAs are superior if you're actually tanking something. Spells are nice if you're ranging a mob, but if you're having a tank range a mob...why is the tank there. Getting a large portion of DPS from autoattack is a pretty big deal too, it means that you're not as affected by stifles/interrupts/KBs which are pretty common...dazes are more rare. And warriors have some fanatastic survivability tools too, adreneline is probably the single best survivability skill in the game, and guards can toss up more stoneskins than some crusaders can block. Warriors also get a free 20% crit bonus that crusaders do not, which is pretty huge.Crusaders get some nice things, warriors get some nice things...they are pretty balanced. Again, to reiterate a previous post, all that really needs to be done is 1. give guardians more AoE aggro control, 2. change crusader knight's stance to do slightly less DPS with shield and slightly more DPS with 2H, 3. improve 2-handed weapons for everyone, about a 10% increase across the board.</blockquote>Actually pretty good assessment of how things playout in the real game.......at the upper end raid level.But the problem is that each of those Crusader things you mention that are not very useful in raids becomes more and more useful outside of raids moreso when groups are less than optimal......and your DPS/aggro potential doesn't suffer.Each of those Guard things you mention.....all the ways to block or mitigate DMG play very little role outside of raiding.....yet our aggro/DPS stays the same. Its accepted that at the raid level aggro is a non issue regardless of fighter because at that level all fighters are able to maintain aggro because of the raid not because of their own aggro or DPS. So things like being able to mitigate or bloick as much DMG as possible become king.Outside of that bubble environment that is raiding everything gets reversed.......things like "personal DPS, Aggro", being able to lifetap, being able to pull zones with ease and as fast as possible, yada yada become king. SKs have been given the tools to be viable raidwise and been allowed to maintain their OPness when it comes to heroics while Guards pretty much still only have the stuff that makes them viable raidwise.This is the problem with using how classes perform in raids -vs- outside of raids as a measure of balance....there simply is no way to balance it properly.

Landiin

05-05-2010, 02:48 PM

The only real way to fix the agro issue is to make fighter DPS not generate agro and only let taunting and positional changes effect it. Then it really wouldn't matter crusaders DPS is out or control. Still have the survivability vs DPS issue but you would solve the agro issue we see now.

Nulgara

05-05-2010, 04:35 PM

<cite>Darkerwarrior@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>1.) Any Crusaders that takes Cavaliers shout is fail..the class doesn't need it. I'ts amazing in PVP though since it's an auto force target..I do have it in a PVP spec..but for grouping/raiding I see no point in it you're better off spending points else where. This tells more so how you don't understand the Crusader class at all. I'm not sure i even understand your point here. in a previous post your saying how you only get 2 generic taunts, as if it was a hinderance to the class but then here you completely discount cavaliers shout which aside from re-enforcements and pure position increasers is THE best taunt in the game imo. and why woudlnt you spec it? what else are you gonna spend your last 8 points on after everything else you need is gotten? it really doesnt make sense to me cause if as you say your all about dps then why woudlnt you take shout to have a sick encounter taunt proc which woudl give you more time using dps abilities then casting the two generic taunts?2.) So you're saying Crusaders are OP in group instances but not in raids? How are you suppose to fix that situation?my comparison wasnt raid vs group. we all know crusaders are an easier group tank to play then the rest. i was comparing your already top end geared folks using their "experiences" with other top end geared folks as their means of comparing things class v class. there is a rather very large portion of the population that does raid but are not in that type of gear bracket and thats where i think it shoudl be balanced and in MY experiences it is not. yes its close but its not quite there yet. 3.) No where did I say how amazing I am, or how sucky everyone is. I'm just countering posts based on my experiences. Not just group or raid. Just because one guild can do it and the other can do it, or one group can do it and the other can't DOES NOT mean it cannot be done because obviously it's being done somewhere right? Someone out there is pulling it off. What you all are asking for is to make the game easy mode instead of working for it. This is about the classes capabilities not what the class capabilities are with GEAR. Forget armor be it raid or group sets, it's what the class is capable of doing. i dont understnad your point here either.. if you go purely by ability you falsely get the appearance that its all balanced out and equal.. when you add gear to the equation thats when it gets massively out of whack with certain combinations. gear HAS to be a factor its the entire reason 95% of raiders raid is for more and better gear.4.) As for "normal folk" raiding. We only raid 3 nights, 2 hours a night which make it 6 hours a week. We're a casual raiding guild. So...don't get the idea I'm hardcore and raid like 4hours every single day.and ok sorry for the assumption the way your wording things made my perception different. my guild is quite casual as well and our raid force is still building but even so we are killing a new mob at least once a week. could our guard DW tank a bunch of the stuff weve been doing .. probably hes an awesome guard but when it comes to dw tanking as a guard i think the biggest factor is the gear and aa slections of the healers dealing with the increased dmg. Re: Wasuna5.) How you going to compare an AoE tank to a Single target tank on room pulling. That's just dumb. That's like comparing a Wizard and a Warlock in an AoE encounter, or Conj and a Necro, or in this situation an SK and a Guardian. </blockquote>and hey my wording sucks too sometimes. gotta be more clear on what i mean heh. my stance is from my raids point of view. we have a lot of fresh new people and a few folks switching classes and such so the tso gear isnt there for a lot fo them so im getting to see the slight imbalances from a different perspective then most.

Mooog

05-05-2010, 05:16 PM

You people need to realize that you cannot compare a crusader and a Warrior... they are different classes. Crusaders are AOE tanks and thus have far better AoE tanking abilities (This includes AoE aggro)Warriors have far better survivability (as well as single target aggro).The issue with comparing the 2 classes in a heroic instance is that all heroic content is too trivial for the guardian to be able to shine.... if you look at raiding for instance there is NO DOUBT that the warrior has far better survivablility and aggro managment (single target) then the crusader. pretty much ANY SK can room pull and hold aggro and not die in a heroic instance but put that crusader in a raid with a hard hitting named and the crusader (Especially the SK) will go down faster than Anduil in a room full of sailors. (at least in comparison to the warrior (or Guardian)Crusaders don't need to be nerfed... the tank classes are the closest they have ever been to being balanced (no it is not perfect but it never will be).Cheers,

Kaarim

05-05-2010, 05:26 PM

<cite>Nulgara@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>I'm not sure i even understand your point here. in a previous post your saying how you only get 2 generic taunts, as if it was a hinderance to the class but then here you completely discount cavaliers shout which aside from re-enforcements and pure position increasers is THE best taunt in the game imo. and why woudlnt you spec it? what else are you gonna spend your last 8 points on after everything else you need is gotten? it really doesnt make sense to me cause if as you say your all about dps then why woudlnt you take shout to have a sick encounter taunt proc which woudl give you more time using dps abilities then casting the two generic taunts?i dont understnad your point here either.. if you go purely by ability you falsely get the appearance that its all balanced out and equal.. when you add gear to the equation thats when it gets massively out of whack with certain combinations. gear HAS to be a factor its the entire reason 95% of raiders raid is for more and better gear.and ok sorry for the assumption the way your wording things made my perception different. my guild is quite casual as well and our raid force is still building but even so we are killing a new mob at least once a week. could our guard DW tank a bunch of the stuff weve been doing .. probably hes an awesome guard but when it comes to dw tanking as a guard i think the biggest factor is the gear and aa slections of the healers dealing with the increased dmg. </blockquote>and hey my wording sucks too sometimes. gotta be more clear on what i mean heh. my stance is from my raids point of view. we have a lot of fresh new people and a few folks switching classes and such so the tso gear isnt there for a lot fo them so im getting to see the slight imbalances from a different perspective then most.</blockquote>It's cool dude. Okay well I can clear somethings up for you. Cav shout is great on paper but as an SK we have quiet a few dots as well we have Grave Sacrament and Death March. To lock down encounters. Also Shadowknights Furor if you read the description it basically turns any Spell/CA you have into a taunt too so hitting Tap veins or any other aoe during that duration will generate hate. The 8 points you can put it into either more survival or DPS. I wouldn't take anything hate generating. When I meant by generic taunts I just mean our AoE taunt and our Single target taunt, we don't have anything else that is direct for hate on a less than 30s recast timer. Paladins have 2 generic taunts as well but have more snap tools than an SK. I think you said you play a monk as main so you know what snaps are like peel etc. My second point about gear is that gear itself is generic. If you look a the marked legendary gear and look at the raid gear the stats are nearly identical sure they are lesser of course but you still gain though. All that fighters will be increasing are str/sta/crit bonus/double attack/crit chance as far as right side armor goes. Gear would help with survival of course, but the conflict I am lead to believe was class abilities. Crusader Vs. Warrior. Out of the 4 tanks in those arch types 3 are aoe masters while 1 is single I personally consider a pally single target but I know that's quiet debatable lol. Anyway..gear is cookie cutter so all tanks let it be herioc or raid tanks will be wearing the same pieces of gear since there is 0 class specific gear anymore.How can SoE make Guards more viable for herioc zones with multi encounters? Could give em more AE threat or even an ability like Cavaliers Shout. If I could rip it off the crusader tree and plant it in the warrior tree I would. lol And yeah sorry if I may seem defensive I don't mean to bite at ya or anything dude just I've been playing this class since launch and an SK in EQOA on the PS2..so I do know a lot about the class and how it's been developed over time. If you're curious about AA builds and stuff send me a msg in game unrest.darkerwarrior I can explain the build too I think you might like it for your alt.

Wyliam

05-05-2010, 06:41 PM

I don't know I guess I'm the only guardian out there who figures everyone should just quit whining and man up and do their jobs. Other than DPS I can do everything Dark can do, and survive better doing it which is good enough for me. And I don't DW 100% of the time Dark lol, I actually don't bother DW'ing most of the time 'cuz I'm lazy and hate swapping gear around lol, that 20k parse the other night I was actually completely defensive shield and all lol.Anyways he told me to come here and read this and all, and I guess all I have to say about it really is.. Considering the tanking cluster f (I don't think I can cuss on the official forums ? lol) that TSO was this is the closest thing we've had to tank balance in a while. No I wouldn't consider it absolutely perfect either, but fact is, any tank can still get the job done, be it heroic or raid content. I've played every tank class available except for a bruiser, my monk was my main for launch up until around the end of TSO when I switched to guard and the fact is they all got their pro's and con's, but I mean what do you guys want ? I'm just confused 'cuz I thought the point of having different classes was so they would BE different, not 6 different classes that all do the same exact thing.I mean I don't know I just don't have the issues that some of you guys are complaining about, not saying I'm uber or anything 'cuz in my own mind im slightly above average on my best days. It just seems like a lot of whining to me though, when the fact is if you get right down to it, like I already said, I can do anything Dark does except for DPS. That being the case why would I want his DPS nerfed so things die slower in raids ? lol

Odys

05-06-2010, 07:53 AM

Most of the tanks i group with for heroic content are knigths, and a majority are SKs. It quite means that there is a problem, why would play a gardian if a SK can tank anything almost as well ? The Sk is much funnier/easier to level, feign death, evac, high dps, self taps ...

Bruener

05-06-2010, 01:59 PM

Raahl

05-06-2010, 02:24 PM

Darkonx

05-06-2010, 02:42 PM

<cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most of the tanks i group with for heroic content are knigths, and a majority are SKs. It quite means that there is a problem, why would play a gardian if a SK can tank anything almost as well ? The Sk is much funnier/easier to level, feign death, evac, high dps, self taps ...</blockquote>All heroic content is trivial, therefore the tank with the highest AOE DPS will look the best. This tank will be a Crusader or a Berserker. Guardians rock against ST mobs, but the fact is all heroic content is so easy, that none of it is really ST.

Darkonx

05-06-2010, 02:43 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most of the tanks i group with for heroic content are knigths, and a majority are SKs. It quite means that there is a problem, why would play a gardian if a SK can tank anything almost as well ? The Sk is much funnier/easier to level, feign death, evac, high dps, self taps ...</blockquote>To MT better than any fighter out there by a lot.</blockquote>You are wrong by a lot!Guardians have a very slight advantage survivability wise when in full defense mode, but have issues with aggro. If a MT is not holding aggro, he's not a better MT. Guardians loose the suvivability advantage when switching to DPS mode, but still are out DPS'd by Sk's that are in Defensive mode.In maximum Survivability mode, SK's are the better MT because they can take the hits and keep aggro, while contributing to the death of the mob!</blockquote>No, he is right. MTing is all about surviving. You wont lose aggro with dirge/coercer/assassin in your group, even if all you're doing is auto attacking. Guardians are the best MT in the game as of right now, for the progression fights.

Wasuna

05-06-2010, 02:55 PM

<cite>Darkerwarrior@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Re: Wasuna5.) How you going to compare an AoE tank to a Single target tank on room pulling. That's just dumb. That's like comparing a Wizard and a Warlock in an AoE encounter, or Conj and a Necro, or in this situation an SK and a Guardian. </blockquote>Dumb? Having the ability to agro all of those mobs and the survivability to easily live through it? I agree that an AoE vs ST issues are very difficult to compare but this example serves the points discussed very well. SK's are just as good of tanks as Guardians and have MUCH more to offer any group/raid. Having a heavy weight on one side and a light weight on the other is the basic defenation of unbalanced. I'll let you guess what classes represent what weight.SK's have great survivability and have HUGE DPS. Anybody coming here saying everything is fair and balanced is just wrong.

Raahl

05-06-2010, 03:02 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most of the tanks i group with for heroic content are knigths, and a majority are SKs. It quite means that there is a problem, why would play a gardian if a SK can tank anything almost as well ? The Sk is much funnier/easier to level, feign death, evac, high dps, self taps ...</blockquote>To MT better than any fighter out there by a lot.</blockquote>You are wrong by a lot!Guardians have a very slight advantage survivability wise when in full defense mode, but have issues with aggro. If a MT is not holding aggro, he's not a better MT. Guardians loose the suvivability advantage when switching to DPS mode, but still are out DPS'd by Sk's that are in Defensive mode.In maximum Survivability mode, SK's are the better MT because they can take the hits and keep aggro, while contributing to the death of the mob!</blockquote>No, he is right. MTing is all about surviving. You wont lose aggro with dirge/coercer/assassin in your group, even if all you're doing is auto attacking. Guardians are the best MT in the game as of right now, for the progression fights.</blockquote>No he's wrong. I'd be more apt to concede a few points to him, but his comment "by a lot" is ludicrous. 1. The survivability difference is laughable. 2. SK's have far superior aggro generation. And yes guardians need hate transfering classes to even come close. 3. Mobs die quicker with an SK.

Darkonx

05-06-2010, 03:12 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most of the tanks i group with for heroic content are knigths, and a majority are SKs. It quite means that there is a problem, why would play a gardian if a SK can tank anything almost as well ? The Sk is much funnier/easier to level, feign death, evac, high dps, self taps ...</blockquote>To MT better than any fighter out there by a lot.</blockquote>You are wrong by a lot!Guardians have a very slight advantage survivability wise when in full defense mode, but have issues with aggro. If a MT is not holding aggro, he's not a better MT. Guardians loose the suvivability advantage when switching to DPS mode, but still are out DPS'd by Sk's that are in Defensive mode.In maximum Survivability mode, SK's are the better MT because they can take the hits and keep aggro, while contributing to the death of the mob!</blockquote>No, he is right. MTing is all about surviving. You wont lose aggro with dirge/coercer/assassin in your group, even if all you're doing is auto attacking. Guardians are the best MT in the game as of right now, for the progression fights.</blockquote>No he's wrong. I'd be more apt to concede a few points to him, but his comment "by a lot" is ludicrous. 1. The survivability difference is laughable. 2. SK's have far superior aggro generation. And yes guardians need hate transfering classes to even come close. 3. Mobs die quicker with an SK.</blockquote>Guardians have 'a lot' more survivability than Shadowknights. Break down all their defensive abilitys, including recast timers, and you'll see that a Guard has FAR more abilitys to cycle in order to live. Aggro generation in a raid MT situation is laughable. With the two hategain mods+two hatetransfers, you wont lose it. All raids should be able to get 1 dirge, 1 coercer, and either an assassin or a swash. Shadowknights do more DPS in exchange for their lesser survivability.This thread is about lowering Crusader DPS while using a 1h/shield, by changing KS to 10-15%, and allowing it to apply to all weapons. The change would also give soemthing back in the form of the AA also applying to 2h weapons.

Raahl

05-06-2010, 03:19 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread is about lowering Crusader DPS while using a 1h/shield, by changing KS to 10-15%, and allowing it to apply to all weapons. The change would also give soemthing back in the form of the AA also applying to 2h weapons.</blockquote>This suggestion only keeps Crusader DPS with 1h/shield better than a warriors in DPS mode. Plus gives them an even greater advantage over warriors when comparing DPS mode vs. DPS mode.Not going to happen.

Darkonx

05-06-2010, 03:29 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread is about lowering Crusader DPS while using a 1h/shield, by changing KS to 10-15%, and allowing it to apply to all weapons. The change would also give soemthing back in the form of the AA also applying to 2h weapons.</blockquote>This suggestion only keeps Crusader DPS with 1h/shield better than a warriors in DPS mode. Plus gives them an even greater advantage over warriors when comparing DPS mode vs. DPS mode.Not going to happen.</blockquote>TBH my post is in the wrong thread, since so many of these have spawned recently, I think it's a reasonable mistake.All warrior/brawler damage has an innate 20 crit bonus boost over Crusaders. The change to KS only gives Crusaders an advantage in terms of auto attack, but they still lack the 20 crit bonus on all of their ca's/spells, in comparison to what a Warrior/Brawler has.Now we should stop talking about KS in this thread, because there is already a thread up on this subject. Sorry that I was a little bit off as to which thread this was.

Raahl

05-06-2010, 03:37 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread is about lowering Crusader DPS while using a 1h/shield, by changing KS to 10-15%, and allowing it to apply to all weapons. The change would also give soemthing back in the form of the AA also applying to 2h weapons.</blockquote>This suggestion only keeps Crusader DPS with 1h/shield better than a warriors in DPS mode. Plus gives them an even greater advantage over warriors when comparing DPS mode vs. DPS mode.Not going to happen.</blockquote>TBH my post is in the wrong thread, since so many of these have spawned recently, I think it's a reasonable mistake.All warrior/brawler damage has an innate 20 crit bonus boost over Crusaders. The change to KS only gives Crusaders an advantage in terms of auto attack, but they still lack the 20 crit bonus on all of their ca's/spells, in comparison to what a Warrior/Brawler has.Now we should stop talking about KS in this thread, because there is already a thread up on this subject. Sorry that I was a little bit off as to which thread this was.</blockquote>And yet warriors are still out DPS'd while in DPS mode by a Crusader in Defensive mode., maybe the crit bonus should be doubled for warriors?

Kaarim

05-06-2010, 03:51 PM

<cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Dumb? Having the ability to agro all of those mobs and the survivability to easily live through it? I agree that an AoE vs ST issues are very difficult to compare but this example serves the points discussed very well. SK's are just as good of tanks as Guardians and have MUCH more to offer any group/raid. Having a heavy weight on one side and a light weight on the other is the basic defenation of unbalanced. I'll let you guess what classes represent what weight.</blockquote>SK's have great survivability and have HUGE DPS. Anybody coming here saying everything is fair and balanced is just wrong.</blockquote>In raids no SK can compete against a Guard in survival...Guardians have so many tools to stay alive the SK only has like..3 and all on lengthly recast timers. In group instances sure makes sense because no herioc mob will be alive by the time the duration of the sk's survival skills are down. You are comparing 2 very different classes. Zerkers can do the samethings as an SK why don't you QQ about them to. SK's have more group utility yeah and that's a bad thing right making the group and raid better? So lets nerf them so we can nerf the group and the raid all together. How is that logical? lol We should nerf summoners too because they give the group more benefits than a necromancer. A GUARDIANS role and even in the character tool tip I'll quote it..from the EQ2 manual.Guardian"Guardians can don the heaviest armors to protect themselves in combat and aid in the DEFENSE of their allies. They STAND FIRM against ANY threat and BEAR the BRUNT of ATTACKS." -Sounds defensive like they are just a tank that takes hits if I'm reading that right no where does it say they any type of primary DPS tank. Zerker"Berzerkers are chaotic warriors who INFLICT HEAVY DAMAGE with all manner of weapons. Their FURIOUS ATTACKS OVERWHELM their opponents."-Sounds offensive Paladin" Paladins are crusaders for all things good and right. Wearing heavy armor, these VALIANT DEFENDERS of truth fight for honor, virtue and nobility."-sounds defensiveShadowknight" Shadowknights are insidious dark crusaders who use the power of evil to advance their causes. They live to INFLICT fear, hate, and despair on all who cross their paths. -sounds offensiveNotice how the primary plate meat tanks all have key words like "DEFEND" in it, and the DPS plate tanks have words like "INFLICT".Weird huh? And this is back in 2005 from the original EQ2 book. They further break down their roles more but I'm sure this is enough information to show what each tank is meant to do.

Darkonx

05-06-2010, 03:56 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread is about lowering Crusader DPS while using a 1h/shield, by changing KS to 10-15%, and allowing it to apply to all weapons. The change would also give soemthing back in the form of the AA also applying to 2h weapons.</blockquote>This suggestion only keeps Crusader DPS with 1h/shield better than a warriors in DPS mode. Plus gives them an even greater advantage over warriors when comparing DPS mode vs. DPS mode.Not going to happen.</blockquote>TBH my post is in the wrong thread, since so many of these have spawned recently, I think it's a reasonable mistake.All warrior/brawler damage has an innate 20 crit bonus boost over Crusaders. The change to KS only gives Crusaders an advantage in terms of auto attack, but they still lack the 20 crit bonus on all of their ca's/spells, in comparison to what a Warrior/Brawler has.Now we should stop talking about KS in this thread, because there is already a thread up on this subject. Sorry that I was a little bit off as to which thread this was.</blockquote>And yet warriors are still out DPS'd while in DPS mode by a Crusader in Defensive mode., maybe the crit bonus should be doubled for warriors?</blockquote>It is effectively doubled. 50% over 30%. No.

Raahl

05-06-2010, 04:06 PM

<cite>Darkerwarrior@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Dumb? Having the ability to agro all of those mobs and the survivability to easily live through it? I agree that an AoE vs ST issues are very difficult to compare but this example serves the points discussed very well. SK's are just as good of tanks as Guardians and have MUCH more to offer any group/raid. Having a heavy weight on one side and a light weight on the other is the basic defenation of unbalanced. I'll let you guess what classes represent what weight.</blockquote>SK's have great survivability and have HUGE DPS. Anybody coming here saying everything is fair and balanced is just wrong.</blockquote>In raids no SK can compete against a Guard in survival...Guardians have so many tools to stay alive the SK only has like..3 and all on lengthly recast timers. In group instances sure makes sense because no herioc mob will be alive by the time the duration of the sk's survival skills are down. You are comparing 2 very different classes. Zerkers can do the samethings as an SK why don't you QQ about them to. SK's have more group utility yeah and that's a bad thing right making the group and raid better? So lets nerf them so we can nerf the group and the raid all together. How is that logical? lol We should nerf summoners too because they give the group more benefits than a necromancer. A GUARDIANS role and even in the character tool tip I'll quote it..from the EQ2 manual.Guardian"Guardians can don the heaviest armors to protect themselves in combat and aid in the DEFENSE of their allies. They STAND FIRM against ANY threat and BEAR the BRUNT of ATTACKS." -Sounds defensive like they are just a tank that takes hits if I'm reading that right no where does it say they any type of primary DPS tank. Zerker"Berzerkers are chaotic warriors who INFLICT HEAVY DAMAGE with all manner of weapons. Their FURIOUS ATTACKS OVERWHELM their opponents."-Sounds offensive Paladin" Paladins are crusaders for all things good and right. Wearing heavy armor, these VALIANT DEFENDERS of truth fight for honor, virtue and nobility."-sounds defensiveShadowknight" Shadowknights are insidious dark crusaders who use the power of evil to advance their causes. They live to INFLICT fear, hate, and despair on all who cross their paths. -sounds offensiveNotice how the primary plate meat tanks all have key words like "DEFEND" in it, and the DPS plate tanks have words like "INFLICT".Weird huh? And this is back in 2005 from the original EQ2 book. They further break down their roles more but I'm sure this is enough information to show what each tank is meant to do. </blockquote>Funny how these don't mean squat. All tanks defend and have offense. It's just the Crusaders seem to get to do both at the same time. Maximum survivablity, superior DPS that what a SK can do. Vs. Guardians are Maximum survivability, mediocre dps.These descriptions have been so out of wack since day one and have been getting farther and father from the truth.

Raahl

05-06-2010, 04:08 PM

Darkonx

05-06-2010, 04:11 PM

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread is about lowering Crusader DPS while using a 1h/shield, by changing KS to 10-15%, and allowing it to apply to all weapons. The change would also give soemthing back in the form of the AA also applying to 2h weapons.</blockquote>This suggestion only keeps Crusader DPS with 1h/shield better than a warriors in DPS mode. Plus gives them an even greater advantage over warriors when comparing DPS mode vs. DPS mode.Not going to happen.</blockquote>TBH my post is in the wrong thread, since so many of these have spawned recently, I think it's a reasonable mistake.All warrior/brawler damage has an innate 20 crit bonus boost over Crusaders. The change to KS only gives Crusaders an advantage in terms of auto attack, but they still lack the 20 crit bonus on all of their ca's/spells, in comparison to what a Warrior/Brawler has.Now we should stop talking about KS in this thread, because there is already a thread up on this subject. Sorry that I was a little bit off as to which thread this was.</blockquote>And yet warriors are still out DPS'd while in DPS mode by a Crusader in Defensive mode., maybe the crit bonus should be doubled for warriors?</blockquote>It is effectively doubled. 50% over 30%. No.</blockquote>20% crit bonus time 2 = 40% bonus. So I guess that would be 170 vs. 130.</blockquote>You are struggling at basic math, and you are just completely off base. I feel like I'm trying to talk to a brick wall here. Shadowknights have LESSER survivability, but GREATER offensive capability. I don't see how you can argue that this isn't the case, as it clearly is.

Raahl

05-06-2010, 04:18 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread is about lowering Crusader DPS while using a 1h/shield, by changing KS to 10-15%, and allowing it to apply to all weapons. The change would also give soemthing back in the form of the AA also applying to 2h weapons.</blockquote>This suggestion only keeps Crusader DPS with 1h/shield better than a warriors in DPS mode. Plus gives them an even greater advantage over warriors when comparing DPS mode vs. DPS mode.Not going to happen.</blockquote>TBH my post is in the wrong thread, since so many of these have spawned recently, I think it's a reasonable mistake.All warrior/brawler damage has an innate 20 crit bonus boost over Crusaders. The change to KS only gives Crusaders an advantage in terms of auto attack, but they still lack the 20 crit bonus on all of their ca's/spells, in comparison to what a Warrior/Brawler has.Now we should stop talking about KS in this thread, because there is already a thread up on this subject. Sorry that I was a little bit off as to which thread this was.</blockquote>And yet warriors are still out DPS'd while in DPS mode by a Crusader in Defensive mode., maybe the crit bonus should be doubled for warriors?</blockquote>It is effectively doubled. 50% over 30%. No.</blockquote>20% crit bonus time 2 = 40% bonus. So I guess that would be 170 vs. 130.</blockquote>You are struggling at basic math, and you are just completely off base. I feel like I'm trying to talk to a brick wall here. Shadowknights have LESSER survivability, but GREATER offensive capability. I don't see how you can argue that this isn't the case, as it clearly is.</blockquote>No either you don't understand what I was saying or I wasn't explaining it well enough. So I'll put it into an equation for you. Currently Warriors have 20 more crit bonus than Crusaders do.20 * 2 = 40. This is what I meant when I said double. Is it going to happen, no. SK's have slightly less survivability and much greater offensive capability. There I fixed it for you.

Raahl

05-06-2010, 04:19 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I feel like I'm trying to talk to a brick wall here.</blockquote>BTW I know how you feel. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

Draylore

05-06-2010, 04:47 PM

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most of the tanks i group with for heroic content are knigths, and a majority are SKs. It quite means that there is a problem, why would play a gardian if a SK can tank anything almost as well ? The Sk is much funnier/easier to level, feign death, evac, high dps, self taps ...</blockquote>To MT better than any fighter out there by a lot.</blockquote>UGGG....do you even bother reading what you reply to?He is talking about heroic content where the term MT means something entirely different than it does on raids.Let me try to put this in simple terms:-Everything that makes a Guardian a Guardian is insignificant outside of progression level raiding....and more often than not a liability.-Everything that makes a SK a SK is very significant regardless of the content.-An SK goes from being almost equal alternate choice for raid MT to being absolute best choice for heroic and everything else.-Guard goes from being best choice for raid MT at the beginning of new content to being absolute worst choice for everything else.Thats not my friend is not proper balance.Our Guard MT is perhaps seen online 3 maybe 4 times a week(when we raid or do x2).....our Pally/Zerker/Bruiser and even our scrub OP SK Alts are seen each and everyday...in raids, running instances, etc. Why do you think the Guard only bothers to log on for raids? ive asked him....its because thats the only time he feels like he contributes anything. Dont you dare say its because he sucks or doesnt know his class..that would be pure BS.Now I know you probably think thats just fine and dandy because in your mind thats the only reason anyone would role a Guardian. And to you there is no EQ2 outside of top-end raiding. To that I say f$Ck you.UGGG

Bruener

05-06-2010, 06:11 PM

<cite>Draylore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odys@Storms wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most of the tanks i group with for heroic content are knigths, and a majority are SKs. It quite means that there is a problem, why would play a gardian if a SK can tank anything almost as well ? The Sk is much funnier/easier to level, feign death, evac, high dps, self taps ...</blockquote>To MT better than any fighter out there by a lot.</blockquote>UGGG....do you even bother reading what you reply to?He is talking about heroic content where the term MT means something entirely different than it does on raids.Let me try to put this in simple terms:-Everything that makes a Guardian a Guardian is insignificant outside of progression level raiding....and more often than not a liability.-Everything that makes a SK a SK is very significant regardless of the content.-An SK goes from being almost equal alternate choice for raid MT to being absolute best choice for heroic and everything else.-Guard goes from being best choice for raid MT at the beginning of new content to being absolute worst choice for everything else.Thats not my friend is not proper balance.Our Guard MT is perhaps seen online 3 maybe 4 times a week(when we raid or do x2).....our Pally/Zerker/Bruiser and even our scrub OP SK Alts are seen each and everyday...in raids, running instances, etc. Why do you think the Guard only bothers to log on for raids? ive asked him....its because thats the only time he feels like he contributes anything. Dont you dare say its because he sucks or doesnt know his class..that would be pure BS.Now I know you probably think thats just fine and dandy because in your mind thats the only reason anyone would role a Guardian. And to you there is no EQ2 outside of top-end raiding. To that I say f$Ck you.UGGG</blockquote>Well its simple really...he asked why you would play a Guard, and the answer is real real simple. To be the MT.If you want to play a Guard to play heroic go for it. It is easily done. But the real reason to play a Guard is to be the BEST MT. Why is that so hard for you and a few others to understand?I really don't care how much your Guard logs on to play. Guess what me and the other full time raid tanks in our guild hardly ever log on outside of raids. Its because Heroic content itself is trivial for every class....especially raid tanks. Why would a MT want to log in to play heroic content?What makes a Guard significant is what they do better than any other class as a MT.I could care less what fighters do at the heroic level because here is the truth of the matter....EVERY SINGLE FIGHTER CLASS CAN PERFORM THEIR ROLE IN HEROIC CONTENT EASY. Thats right every single fighter can tank every single zone easy.....and yes that means with heroic level gear.So to recap EVERY FIGHTER CAN TANK ALL HEROIC CONTENT EASY, and fighters all are able to perform their role in raids...equally enough so that you can flop around fighters for the most part outside of the MT spot and not miss a beat. Aside from that Guards are hands down the best MT.What is the goal with this thread again?